Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
On Thursday 14 April 2011 23.37:16 Steffen Möller wrote: On 04/14/2011 11:28 PM, Andreas Tille wrote: On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 09:54:40AM -0700, Noah Meyerhans wrote: I think a case could be made for Debian's apt system being the original app store Yes. That's what I wanted to say in my previous mail! And because there was a mail about not accepting the term app store because repository is such a good name: I have no idea whether [...] How about Free App Store ? And what is wrong with just plain Applications? I think the whole app store thing is blown out of proportion by the marketing teams of a few companies, we do not need to join he hype on this. We offer an OS, and (my original point) we also offer applications in the same bundle. And the joke is that the user doesn't even need to download them separately from some web page, but they're bundled with the OS (meaning: either they're on the DVD with the OS, or the installation is integrated with the usual OS tools.) *That* is the story we should try to get across: you don't need to visit some app store place or whatever, but after you installed Debian, you already got all the tools you need. Python's Batteries included idea, really. cheers -- vbi -- Today is Setting Orange, the 32nd day of Discord in the YOLD 3177 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 12:06:33AM +0200, Jérôme wrote: Small Apple Apps provide 1 contents and not 1 task, this is redundant programming ( a browser for parents, a browser for children, a browser for cat...). It's like ou must use vim for editing scripts emacs for editing configs and gedit for editing latex... and pay for each! it's not the same case, it's not the traditionally Unix approach at all! Sorry, I can not buy this argument. The fact that somebody else is using a name for something what is done not properly does not mean that the name is wrong. We are also using the name Operating System and there are others who are interpreting this word the wrong way (as we think). Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110415063420.ga7...@an3as.eu
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the?Debian main page
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 08:14:47AM +0200, Adrian von Bidder wrote: And what is wrong with just plain Applications? I think the whole app store thing is blown out of proportion by the marketing teams of a few companies, we do not need to join he hype on this. I'm personally against hypes and I do not like commercial marketing strategies. But this shouldn't make us blind about the fact that it just works. Refusing to learn strategies which work is not sane. We are living in one world and if we want to be successful we need to follow some rules (whether we like them or not). Otherwise we will not leave the geeky corner. IMHO Ubuntu is doing a proper job in this field. And regarding evolvement of names: At some point in time the verb to google made its way into dictionaries. So the action to search the web using a specific search engine is used as a more general word than it was intended (and even if I do not like it personally - it is real). So why not using the name app store for a large set of applications where you can cherry pick from? If people (specifically non-geekish ones) have accepted this word, are using it and have some immediate imagination what it is - why not using it? Only because it is used in the proprietary world? Would you consider stop using English language just because the most commercial advertising is done in this language (even in non English speaking countries - and it is perfectly understood there as well)? Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110415065646.gb7...@an3as.eu
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the?Debian main page
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 08:56:46AM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote: was intended (and even if I do not like it personally - it is real). So why not using the name app store for a large set of applications where you can cherry pick from? I tried to post about it yesterday, but it doesn't seem to have been noticed: http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2011/04/msg00054.html There is already a name: AppStream. It comes with code and standards: http://distributions.freedesktop.org/wiki/AppStream It's as good as any other, and I don't see the need to invent another one. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the?Debian main page
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 09:10:47AM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote: I tried to post about it yesterday, but it doesn't seem to have been noticed: http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2011/04/msg00054.html I perfectly noticed your posting and I completely agree with your point that it should be listed on a popular place. There is already a name: AppStream. It comes with code and standards: http://distributions.freedesktop.org/wiki/AppStream It's as good as any other, and I don't see the need to invent another one. I did not understand your mail in a way to use the term AppStream in front of non-geeks to explain what Debian means. My intend was to use a commonly used word to explain what Debian is. I know that the meaning of this word is stretched a bit - but that's the fate of words sometimes ... Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110415100217.gb16...@an3as.eu
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the?Debian main page
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 11:49:14AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: To google only means to search the web using one specific service which happens to be very popular. Just as (at least in Denmark) non-geeks since long use the term Word to mean word processor even though it only means one specific word processor which happens to be very popular. I have tried fighting it in public schools where teachers are supposed to teach generic skills, not train for a particular environment (which is anyway outdated when the kids finish school). I agree that my example to google was perhaps not perfect. Probably the term Excel sheet instead of spreadsheet, or PowerPoint presentation instead of overhead presentation or something like this would have been a better example. When my brother and I - back in the dark ages when only geeks had heard of the term Linux - tried persuade some public schools to adopt use of Linux, he made an observation: Don't say that it is similar to Windows because then they will always treat it as a (cheaper) imitation of the real thing. Similar is my reasoning that we should not use a term which non-geeks have adopted as meaning members-only shop for commercial and freeware applications. I got your point. That's why I pointed out in at least two of my mails that the real thing in fact was just invented *here*. Thus I would rather try to turn around the argument: Those propriatary app stores just use what we are doing since a long time. It does not matter if Debian was here first. IMHO this does matter. As you mention yourself it is very important how our users comprehend the terms: our store do not fit the modern use of the term, so embracing it confuses and devaluates more than it helps our users in understanding what we offer them. At first I had my doubts about this. However Ben (as a native speaker) explained that this is not necessarily true. BTW, aren't there app stores that contain some free (as in beer) apps as well? We just have everything for free (and will explain the beer versus speach in the next lession). Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110415101043.gc16...@an3as.eu
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the?Debian main page
On 11-04-15 at 12:10pm, Andreas Tille wrote: On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 11:49:14AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: To google only means to search the web using one specific service which happens to be very popular. Just as (at least in Denmark) non-geeks since long use the term Word to mean word processor even though it only means one specific word processor which happens to be very popular. I have tried fighting it in public schools where teachers are supposed to teach generic skills, not train for a particular environment (which is anyway outdated when the kids finish school). I agree that my example to google was perhaps not perfect. Probably the term Excel sheet instead of spreadsheet, or PowerPoint presentation instead of overhead presentation or something like this would have been a better example. I fail to see how those other examples are any better: They too are a) popular terms but also b) describe populistic and commercial simplifications of computing tasks. When my brother and I - back in the dark ages when only geeks had heard of the term Linux - tried persuade some public schools to adopt use of Linux, he made an observation: Don't say that it is similar to Windows because then they will always treat it as a (cheaper) imitation of the real thing. Similar is my reasoning that we should not use a term which non-geeks have adopted as meaning members-only shop for commercial and freeware applications. I got your point. That's why I pointed out in at least two of my mails that the real thing in fact was just invented *here*. Thus I would rather try to turn around the argument: Those propriatary app stores just use what we are doing since a long time. I suspect I did not get my point across: With the real thing I do not mean the original thing. It does not matter if Debian was here first. IMHO this does matter. What I meant was that the historical context does not matter to those users who embrace commercial terms for generic computing tasks. When you tell your non-geeky user that this is just like iPhone or Android - we also have an app store (which is bigger, better, came first, is Free, etc. etc.) then your user will hear it as we have adopted that same cool design as Apple invented for their phones (and perhaps if you wait long enough we will also adopt other cool ideas from the powerful commercial players). It does not matter in that story telling that Debian was here first. What matters is that the foundation you chose for your story telling was that of an app store - which all modern computer users know was an invention of Apple, because it was _marketed_ as such - no matter if technically there is little invention. I am in favor of better marketing Debian. But I dislike marketing Debian using the slipstream of existing succesful marketing terms meaning (in the mass consumer market) something else than what we want it to mean. As you mention yourself it is very important how our users comprehend the terms: our store do not fit the modern use of the term, so embracing it confuses and devaluates more than it helps our users in understanding what we offer them. At first I had my doubts about this. However Ben (as a native speaker) explained that this is not necessarily true. BTW, aren't there app stores that contain some free (as in beer) apps as well? We just have everything for free (and will explain the beer versus speach in the next lession). I am perfectly aware that the core meaning of store is not necessarily tied to shopping. The combination app store is, however, in the minds of those that you want to reach with this marketing, tied to shopping. You want to hijack a succesful marketing term and use it for a different purpose (not a new purpose but its old one before it was hyped). I argue that such attempt at enlightening your users by helping them extend their definitions of computing terms will fail. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the?Debian main page
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 12:02:17PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote: There is already a name: AppStream. It comes with code and standards: http://distributions.freedesktop.org/wiki/AppStream It's as good as any other, and I don't see the need to invent another one. I did not understand your mail in a way to use the term AppStream in front of non-geeks to explain what Debian means. My intend was to use a commonly used word to explain what Debian is. I know that the meaning of this word is stretched a bit - but that's the fate of words sometimes ... Sorry, I think I misunderstood the thread, I thought you wanted to redesign the current web views of Debian packages so that it is somehow more trendy/modern, but I now realised you only want to find it a trendier/more modern name. I stand corrected. However, if after finding it a new name you'd like to keep going and add things like ratings, comments, tag clouds and whatnot, you can go back to my messages in this thread and know where to start :) Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the?Debian main page
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 12:41:49PM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote: Sorry, I think I misunderstood the thread, I thought you wanted to redesign the current web views of Debian packages so that it is somehow more trendy/modern, but I now realised you only want to find it a trendier/more modern name. I stand corrected. Ahh, cool provocation. :-) I admit I changed the topic a bit - sorry for this. However, if after finding it a new name you'd like to keep going and add things like ratings, comments, tag clouds and whatnot, you can go back to my messages in this thread and know where to start :) I admit there is no reason to wait putting AppStream on the web pages nowish. The topic whether we might be able to find some apropriate way to describe Debian for mere mortals should be moved to a different thread. Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110415192737.gh16...@an3as.eu
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 07:22:36AM +1000, Ben Finney wrote: We might justify this on the basis that “store” doesn't necessarily mean a place where you buy things, only a place where things are stored for later use; e.g. a farm's grain store or a hospital's medicine store. Ahh ... People new to free software are going to have untold assumptions about terminology; the “no, it's a store where we store things for you, you don't have to pay to use them” hurdle seems trivial in comparison to the overall “free software” concept. Definitely! If there is some consensus about this we should probably move this idea to our web pages soonish. +1 for the right line of thinking -- I kept using appstore analogy to regular mortals for a while to describe what Debian brings to their desktops. Yes, the concept is one that people apparently understand easily, so we should exercise it to make Debian's nature better understood. Yes. And by the way: Didn't we used (invented?) this kind of app store (as one of the) first? Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110414062935.gb6...@an3as.eu
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
Dne, 13. 04. 2011 14:56:31 je Yaroslav Halchenko napisal(a): On Wed, 13 Apr 2011, Andreas Tille wrote: My proposal (which is orthogonal) is linking to applications, just to show that Debian is not just an operating system as defined on our title page (set of basic programs and utilities that make your computer run.) I recently wondered if we should use the (buzz word) application store. I do not really like buzz words but we are de facto what people understand behind this word. I have no idea if we might be able to do better with the wording because usually you *buy* something in a store, but Debian is some place where you get things for free. +1 for the right line of thinking -- I kept using appstore analogy to regular mortals for a while to describe what Debian brings to their desktops. app store might indeed be too bold though... may be app emporium/outlet/warehouse/depot with less direct sale-oriented meaning, but those would not, as well as the original store, anyhow hint on the integration aspect of Debian. any other close analogy? The term app store is extremely well established and quite univocally defines a store where apps are *sold*. Using the term, or any subvariant of the term, is IMHO just bound to rise eyebrows and confuse newbies. Non-newbies already have a far more apt term for what is referred to here -- it's the term repository. It's more precise, not confusing, has an established tradition, and is quite univocal. something like app universe would bring a link to Universal OS but might be too abstract... I may be just a humble debian user, but FWIW, I firmly oppose any introduction of commercially-oriented terms such as app-store *or variations thereof* into the free and universal OS we all love and cherish. In my opinion, just linking to Applications would be quite self-explanatory, perhaps complemented with a short explanation in braces, such as: (In Debian, all applications come bundled with the operating system, and just like the operating system, they come completely cost-free.) My 2¢. -- Cheerio, and a BIG thanks for the wonderful OS (and apps) you're providing, Klistvud http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com Certifiable Loonix User #481801 Please reply to the list, not to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1302765147.3087.1@compax
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 05:47:18PM +0200, Adrian von Bidder wrote: My proposal (which is orthogonal) is linking to applications, just to show that Debian is not just an operating system as defined on our title page (set of basic programs and utilities that make your computer run.) It seems odd not to see the AppStream project mentioned here: I think that is the direction in which to focus these kinds of efforts: http://www.enricozini.org/2011/debian/appinstaller2011/ I'm chiming in with a few links and comments, and I urge you to have a good look because most of what you are talking about has been prototyped, or at least standardised in a cross-distro way: http://distributions.freedesktop.org/wiki/AppStream/Implementation Although in AppStream you will see that the main point is to build an application installer, as a precondition for that there is a need to build standard ways of accessing extra useful information like screenshots, various kinds of ratings, tags and user comments. Those standards could and should be used to build all sorts of other things, including fancy web-based application browsers: http://www.enricozini.org/2011/debian/pkgshelf/ In fact, you can take the graph at http://distributions.freedesktop.org/wiki/AppStream/Implementation and replace 'Software Center' and 'PackageKit' with 'Website': this gives you pretty much the architecture you need. I suggest you do exactly that: you'll find code and people to talk to, and it's a development effort that is likely to be shared with other groups and built upon. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
Le jeudi 14 avril 2011 à 09:12 +0200, Klistvud a écrit : The term app store is extremely well established and quite univocally defines a store where apps are *sold*. Using the term, or any subvariant of the term, is IMHO just bound to rise eyebrows and confuse newbies. Non-newbies already have a far more apt term for what is referred to here -- it's the term repository. It's more precise, not confusing, has an established tradition, and is quite univocal. In my opinion, app store is name which carries in confusion. app store provide widgets very closed and nothing like a real app (LibreOffice, Firefox, Joomla...). These widgets are very specialised and sounds like bubbleware for small paying pigs. Why using 100 apps for doing something that 1 browser can doing ? App store is lineal heir to french 3615 Minitel. I do not wish, in no way, that app store appears in the vocabulary of Debian. (Sorry for my english) -- Jérôme Dautzenberg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1302790304.3139.19.ca...@azuki.aranha.ici
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 04:11:44PM +0200, Jérôme wrote: Why using 100 apps for doing something that 1 browser can doing ? App store is lineal heir to french 3615 Minitel. It's funny that you'd say that, because traditionally the Unix approach has been to use many small, task-specific apps, not one big monolithic system. It seems to me that the current app store trend is entirely compatible with this philosophy. The only real problem is that none of the popular app stores are at all friendly to free software. I think a case could be made for Debian's apt system being the original app store noah signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 09:54:40AM -0700, Noah Meyerhans wrote: I think a case could be made for Debian's apt system being the original app store Yes. That's what I wanted to say in my previous mail! And because there was a mail about not accepting the term app store because repository is such a good name: I have no idea whether repository is such a good name for native speakers. For non native speakers it is not. A store became somehow internationalised and everybody understands this term. I would bet that 90% of non-geeks non-english speakers will perfectly understand the term application store but have problems to understand application repository. In the circle of my friends I would say it tends to 100%. Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110414212844.gk9...@an3as.eu
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
On 04/14/2011 11:28 PM, Andreas Tille wrote: On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 09:54:40AM -0700, Noah Meyerhans wrote: I think a case could be made for Debian's apt system being the original app store Yes. That's what I wanted to say in my previous mail! And because there was a mail about not accepting the term app store because repository is such a good name: I have no idea whether [...] How about Free App Store ? The double meaning of Free shall help to get some extra attention. That Free and Store don't really go together in a commercial sense is also rather lovely ... from that one can deduce what meaning that Free shall have. Actually, we should trademark that. Steffen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4da7690c.3050...@gmx.de
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
Le jeudi 14 avril 2011 à 09:54 -0700, Noah Meyerhans a écrit : It's funny that you'd say that, because traditionally the Unix approach has been to use many small, task-specific apps, not one big monolithic system. Yes but no （￣～￣;）ウーン・・・ Unix app do 1 task or 1 job useful for any application (grep, sort, lpr awk, sed, vim ...) and you have choice (for editing text : vim, emacs, gedit, kate...) If I use firefox, I can use googlemap, weather, poker... I don't need firefox-for-googlemap, firefox-for-weather, firefox-for-poker ... Small Apple Apps provide 1 contents and not 1 task, this is redundant programming ( a browser for parents, a browser for children, a browser for cat...). It's like ou must use vim for editing scripts emacs for editing configs and gedit for editing latex... and pay for each! it's not the same case, it's not the traditionally Unix approach at all! Unix open computing, apps store segment information so that you paid a toll. -- Jérôme Dautzenberg (yes, my english is a crime) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1302818793.19889.65.ca...@azuki.aranha.ici
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
Le Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:28:44PM +0200, Andreas Tille a écrit : And because there was a mail about not accepting the term app store because repository is such a good name: I have no idea whether repository is such a good name for native speakers. For non native speakers it is not. Hi all, I agree with Andreas. After saying “repository” three times I have muscle pain in my mouth. So our packages are not an application store because we do not sell them. We also do not “store” them in the sense of making a stock to be consumed later. Therefore we do not have an application shelf either: when somebody takes a package there, there are still as many packages available for others. In that sense, our archive is an application matrix (mother). But one may find that word already outdated. If the portal that presents our applications featured someting similar as the Debtags tag cloud, how about “application cloud” ? It is easy to translate in every language, and can refer both to our collection and the place to visit, which would be a useful ambiguity. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Debian Med packaging team, http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110415003014.ga14...@merveille.plessy.net
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
Charles Plessy ple...@debian.org writes: I agree with Andreas. After saying “repository” three times I have muscle pain in my mouth. Yes. It's a fine term for precision among fellow geeks, but it's a poor name for getting recognition by newcomers. So our packages are not an application store because we do not sell them. That's not relevant to the meaning of “store”, in the same way that “free software” is not about price but we proudly use that term anyway. Why not use the “huh? how come you call it a store if you're not selling things?” concept clash as the same launching point for discussion about freedom? We have already come a long way with the idea that free software can be sold or not without changing the valence of its freedom. We also do not “store” them in the sense of making a stock to be consumed later. How so? That's exactly what we do, I would say. It's also the general meaning of a store. Therefore we do not have an application shelf either: when somebody takes a package there, there are still as many packages available for others. That is also true for anything that calls itself an “app store” today. We can use that term ourselves. If the portal that presents our applications featured someting similar as the Debtags tag cloud, how about “application cloud” ? It is easy to translate in every language, and can refer both to our collection and the place to visit, which would be a useful ambiguity. −1. That term is as nebulous as the meaning of “cloud”. -- \ “Religious faith is the one species of human ignorance that | `\ will not admit of even the *possibility* of correction.” —Sam | _o__) Harris, _The End of Faith_, 2004 | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87r5942v3c@benfinney.id.au
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011, Steffen Möller wrote: And because there was a mail about not accepting the term app store because repository is such a good name: I have no idea whether [...] How about Free App Store ? The double meaning of Free So far I think this was be the best in terms of ease of comprehension by outsiders... may be it could be further qualified as Free and Open App Store? (FOAS) for that wikipedia knows only http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOAS Future Offensive Air System http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/FOAS provides more thorough coverage of the acronym: FOASFuture Offensive Air System FOASFirst Order Abstract Syntax (computing) FOASFiber Optic Acoustic Sensors (Northrop Grumman) FOASFriends of Albert Schweitzer (England, UK) FOASFootsteps of a Stranger (song) FOASFriends of the Animal Shelter of St. Bernard, Inc. (Chalmette, LA) so it seems that even trademark-ing could be available ;-) in contrast to http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/FOSS it is even more unique: FOSSFree and Open Source Software FOSSFree / Open-Source Software FOSSFull Option Science System FOSSFiber-Optic Sensor System FOSSForum of Small States (UN) FOSSFollow-On System Stock FOSSFiber Optics Sonar System FOSSFaculty Online Support Service FOSSFederal Intelligence Security Service FOSSFamily Of System Study -- =--= Keep in touch www.onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko www.ohloh.net/accounts/yarikoptic -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110415010426.gm7...@onerussian.com
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
[#622274 in CC] On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 05:47:18PM +0200, Adrian von Bidder wrote: Yodel! DiDu! ... Linking to blends and/or subprojects would be addressing target groups, which would probably be useful. I do really like this suggestion! My proposal (which is orthogonal) is linking to applications, just to show that Debian is not just an operating system as defined on our title page (set of basic programs and utilities that make your computer run.) I recently wondered if we should use the (buzz word) application store. I do not really like buzz words but we are de facto what people understand behind this word. I have no idea if we might be able to do better with the wording because usually you *buy* something in a store, but Debian is some place where you get things for free. * a new page, prominently listing the top applications (tbd - but the target group is the average user, so this would probably include stuff like libreoffice, iceweasel, apache/php/mysql and other web stuff etc.; then mention kde and gnome and perhaps point to their application pages, and possibly include a more stuff link, pointing to a package db browsable by debtags/categories (does this already exist? Offline right now, can't check.) * obviously needs to link to how can I install this stuff information * should not be a wall of text like so many of our pages are. all the applications I've mentioned above have a logo... Sounds good. When reading the first items I was thinking: This might become a longish page with a lot of text before we might come to the Blends / subgroups point. But using somehow graphic representations might make this suggestion quite interesting. (But we should make sure that target users for Debian Accessibility can also understand this page.) Should I do a draft of such an applications page? Let's not get into fights on which application should be listed (yet) - we can always make it a dynamic page and list a random selection of applications... :-) Yes, please do. BTW, what about a Tag Cloud of applications regarding to popcon (and I really mean applications not libraries and basic system requirements). Again: maybe we also could/should link to subprojects/blends/... that address specific target user groups - it's just a thought I had after reading that discussion. Thanks for pushing things foreward Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110413081352.gk10...@an3as.eu
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
On Wed, 13 Apr 2011, Andreas Tille wrote: My proposal (which is orthogonal) is linking to applications, just to show that Debian is not just an operating system as defined on our title page (set of basic programs and utilities that make your computer run.) I recently wondered if we should use the (buzz word) application store. I do not really like buzz words but we are de facto what people understand behind this word. I have no idea if we might be able to do better with the wording because usually you *buy* something in a store, but Debian is some place where you get things for free. +1 for the right line of thinking -- I kept using appstore analogy to regular mortals for a while to describe what Debian brings to their desktops. app store might indeed be too bold though... may be app emporium/outlet/warehouse/depot with less direct sale-oriented meaning, but those would not, as well as the original store, anyhow hint on the integration aspect of Debian. any other close analogy? something like app universe would bring a link to Universal OS but might be too abstract... -- =--= Keep in touch www.onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko www.ohloh.net/accounts/yarikoptic -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110413125631.gq7...@onerussian.com
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
Yaroslav Halchenko deb...@onerussian.com writes: On Wed, 13 Apr 2011, Andreas Tille wrote: I recently wondered if we should use the (buzz word) application store. I do not really like buzz words but we are de facto what people understand behind this word. I have no idea if we might be able to do better with the wording because usually you *buy* something in a store, but Debian is some place where you get things for free. We might justify this on the basis that “store” doesn't necessarily mean a place where you buy things, only a place where things are stored for later use; e.g. a farm's grain store or a hospital's medicine store. People new to free software are going to have untold assumptions about terminology; the “no, it's a store where we store things for you, you don't have to pay to use them” hurdle seems trivial in comparison to the overall “free software” concept. +1 for the right line of thinking -- I kept using appstore analogy to regular mortals for a while to describe what Debian brings to their desktops. Yes, the concept is one that people apparently understand easily, so we should exercise it to make Debian's nature better understood. -- \“Intellectual property is to the 21st century what the slave | `\ trade was to the 16th.” —David Mertz | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87zknt4zj7@benfinney.id.au
Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
Yodel! (I'm obviously picking up on the discussion sparked by the Med@Tel report/ blends on the main page thread) I had a quick look at the kde.org and gnome.org pages. I think the blends on main page is a sub-topic of what can you do after you've installed Debian. On both the gnome.org and the kde.org pages, besides the what is and how to get info, there is a prominent applications section. Note that (as with Debian's many packages) this is stuff that is not part of the core KDE / GNOME distributions, but is stuff that you can do after you've got a desktop. I think that debian.org misses this kind of information completely. We explain that Debian is an OS, and that it has packages (but to a non- techie, that is an empty word), and distrib/packages (where it points to) also is a quite technical description. Read more points to intro/about, leaving the packages topic completely. Linking to blends and/or subprojects would be addressing target groups, which would probably be useful. My proposal (which is orthogonal) is linking to applications, just to show that Debian is not just an operating system as defined on our title page (set of basic programs and utilities that make your computer run.) * a new page, prominently listing the top applications (tbd - but the target group is the average user, so this would probably include stuff like libreoffice, iceweasel, apache/php/mysql and other web stuff etc.; then mention kde and gnome and perhaps point to their application pages, and possibly include a more stuff link, pointing to a package db browsable by debtags/categories (does this already exist? Offline right now, can't check.) * obviously needs to link to how can I install this stuff information * should not be a wall of text like so many of our pages are. all the applications I've mentioned above have a logo... * needs to be linked from the short section on packages which is on the title page. (replaces the packages link; the read more link could perhaps point to distrib/packages; intro/about feels irrelevant in that paragraph.) Should I do a draft of such an applications page? Let's not get into fights on which application should be listed (yet) - we can always make it a dynamic page and list a random selection of applications... :-) Again: maybe we also could/should link to subprojects/blends/... that address specific target user groups - it's just a thought I had after reading that discussion. cheers -- vbi -- featured link: http://www.pool.ntp.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
