Re: Greaat disappointment
On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 12:10:36PM +0100, Wolodja Wentland wrote: On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 22:34 -0400, Kevin Mark wrote: On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 01:55:01AM +0200, Qactuar Rogue wrote: you will find a much better response if you ask your question on the debian-user mailing list. That list is more representative of the good people who use debian than the IRC channel. IRC is another kind of beast. It is more hit or miss. Debian does not pay people to moderate IRC or the mailing lists, we are a group of volunteers. I am surprised by the perception of IRC support in the Debian community exemplified by this mail. I do not know about your own experiences, Mark, but I have the impression that some people (still?) think that IRC support is best to be avoided, that support on the mailing lists is better and that something needs to be done about our IRC culture. Hi, yes, I have gotten great support on IRC. But some people are not as accustomed to IRC and may be more considerate when they compose their words for a mailing list vs an IRC chat. And I suspected that he/she was 'very direct' on IRC and knew it would not necessarily get a good responce. So I mentioned the mailing list as a way that I felt would be more supportive for newbies not familar with IRC. -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux ==.| http://kevix.myopenid.com..| | : :' : The Universal OS| mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/.| | `. `' http://www.debian.org/.| http://counter.li.org [#238656]| |___`-Unless I ask to be CCd,.assume I am subscribed._| -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20111002090629.GA13942@horacrux
Re: Greaat disappointment
On Sat, 1 Oct 2011, Yaroslav Halchenko deb...@onerussian.com wrote: I also considered investing into the Debian project by donating millions of dollars. To help the creation of software which can effectively conquer the popularity of Windows, [...] We may hear of each other again. I may consider creating my own foundation for an all new OS. The quality of support on IRC varies. That said when you join #Debian the Topic includes /msg bots NOT people which is pretty clear for anyone who knows IRC well. It would be good if http://deb.li/IRCFAQ also included this in a longer form for people who aren't into IRC. Finally this I was going to be a big customer line is commonly used by dissatisfied people. Making up exaggerated claims isn't going to make us take him seriously. The number of people who falsely claim to be millionaires vastly outnumbers the number of real millionaires - many of whom don't tell people how much money they have for obvious reasons. That sort of thing is just annoying. In any case I think we should welcome forks, any fork has to be under a compatible license, therefore we can incorporate changes if they are beneficial. So if he is a millionaire then creating another Canonical would be a good thing to do, it's not as if Debian needs the money, it seems that we always have a lot of money and not that much to spend it on. On Sat, 1 Oct 2011, Arno Töll deb...@toell.net wrote: FTR: http://paste.debian.net/10/ Yes, calling people dumbass is a good way to not get your question answered. Another is to make ageist aspersions, there are more than a few Linux experts who are less than 14yo. The youngest person to give a presentation at LCA was 13 at the time - someone who can get their talk accepted by one of the most prestigious Linux conferences can probably answer IRC questions better than most people... As an aside, is there any good paid Linux answer service? When someone who has millions of dollars to spend but who can't get along with IRC people then it would surely be better for them to pay someone to answer their question. My past experience is that when one of my clients wants to pay a DD $100US by PayPal they get quality advice, assistance, and on occasion new features at fairly short notice. Speaking for myself a message saying please answer the following question ASAP for $100 by PayPal will really get my attention. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Bloghttp://doc.coker.com.au/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201110011604.41008.russ...@coker.com.au
Re: Greaat disappointment
Le samedi 01 octobre 2011 à 01:55 +0200, Qactuar Rogue a écrit : I do not want Debian anymore however. I do not wish to use software developed by those people who are surfing on your IRC channels, thank you very much. I’m afraid I have to inform you that Debian is not developed by people who spend their days trolling on #debian. Cheers, -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Greaat disappointment
Hello, On 10/01/2011 06:13 AM, Ben Hutchings wrote: On Sat, 2011-10-01 at 01:55 +0200, Qactuar Rogue wrote: Hi. I was planning on installing Debian on a new laptop that had Windows 7 pre-installed. I was researching the methods of installation for two weeks (partitioning etc). Then right before beginning the disk wipe and later the installation I had problems deciding on my own for what kind of partition table to create and wanted to have feedback from somebody who has a comprehensive understanding on the subject. I went on IRC. Firstly I tried #Debian on irc.debian.org then I tried #Debian at chat.freenode.com I would like to express my greatest disappointment regarding the `helpfulness` of the people on the channel. On irc.debian.org everyone was a complete dumbass. On both channels I was told off for asking my questions by PMing someone who replied to my posting on the channel. That seems quite reasonable. You have no right to expect free one-to-one support. I have never been to an IRC activity @debian.org. With all those larger companies now having an online chat window opening when one idles for more than a second on their page, I can well imagine expectations to somehow change. My nick was Ti-chan. You can research if you please. I did nothing, just kindly asked for help regarding partitioning. [...] And then, apparently, you started insulting people. I can well imagine how one has made the investment to install some IRC client to get access to that presumed source of help. One is happy to get it started and to understand what this join to a channel might mean - and then nobody wants to react to a my machine does not boot kind of question. Let us assume too little time to have passed between that experience and the mail to this list. irc.debian.org was an inappropriate address for that kind of help seeked. A local Linux group for volunteers' help may work out better. However, at least over here, the Linux user groups are somewhat on the decline, much like nobody ever hears about Windows user groups. Linux is just everywhere. When we send people off to look for help locally, this effectively really means to either have a (friend's)* friend who has done it before or to just ask any IT professional. For improving synchronous help, I have no immediate idea. Anything that comes to mind would cost money. And the Debian main pages would need to point to that. This is then more Ubuntu than Debian, I think. I also considered investing into the Debian project by donating millions of dollars. [...] If you really have so much money to spare, consider paid support from a consultant as listed under http://www.debian.org/consultants/. A million donated to Debian would have zero effect on irc.debian.org, I presume. What would we do with a million for Debian? My personal hunch is that Debian would best be served by having the donor starting a viable business that uses our distro and where there is a gap in functionality have that closed by a new Open Source development / patches to existing software. :o) This sounds like an interesting separate thread. All the best, Steffen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4e86d19c.3060...@gmx.de
Re: Greaat disappointment
On 2011-10-01, Steffen Möller steffen_moel...@gmx.de wrote: My nick was Ti-chan. You can research if you please. I did nothing, just kindly asked for help regarding partitioning. [...] And then, apparently, you started insulting people. I can well imagine how one has made the investment to install some IRC client to get access to that presumed source of help. One is happy to get it started and to understand what this join to a channel might mean - and then nobody wants to react to a my machine does not [00:56] Ti-chan Hi. Could someone who has a remotely comprehensive understanding of partitioning and is not a complete dumbass help me out? is apparantly the guys first words to the debian channel, around 15 minutes after he joined. There is nothing kind nor any investments over that. /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/slrnj8dmga.p7v.nos...@sshway.ssh.pusling.com
Re: Greaat disappointment
On 11-10-01 at 09:14am, Sune Vuorela wrote: On 2011-10-01, Steffen Möller steffen_moel...@gmx.de wrote: My nick was Ti-chan. You can research if you please. I did nothing, just kindly asked for help regarding partitioning. [...] And then, apparently, you started insulting people. I can well imagine how one has made the investment to install some IRC client to get access to that presumed source of help. One is happy to get it started and to understand what this join to a channel might mean - and then nobody wants to react to a my machine does not [00:56] Ti-chan Hi. Could someone who has a remotely comprehensive understanding of partitioning and is not a complete dumbass help me out? is apparantly the guys first words to the debian channel, around 15 minutes after he joined. There is nothing kind nor any investments over that. Installing(!) an IRC client and diving into the world of IRC is an investment. Possibly so long ago that you made that investment that you have forgotten, but the investment is real. I still remember how clumsy I felt with IRC back in 2004 when I started using IRC (in order to reach the the people in same room as me when I joined my first debconf - debconf4 in Brazil). It was quite an investment for me back then to install an IRC client (thanks for the help, Micah!), and I am sure I broke some rules of conduct when I started chatting. I agree that it makes good sense why no good comes out of above message, but I disagree that there could be no investment involved. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Greaat disappointment
On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 09:48 +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le samedi 01 octobre 2011 à 01:55 +0200, Qactuar Rogue a écrit : I do not want Debian anymore however. I do not wish to use software developed by those people who are surfing on your IRC channels, thank you very much. I’m afraid I have to inform you that Debian is not developed by people who spend their days trolling on #debian. It is certainly not developed by people *trolling* on #debian, but there are DDs, DMs and otherwise active contributors among the regulars. -- Wolodja babi...@gmail.com 4096R/CAF14EFC 081C B7CD FF04 2BA9 94EA 36B2 8B7F 7D30 CAF1 4EFC signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Greaat disappointment
On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 22:34 -0400, Kevin Mark wrote: On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 01:55:01AM +0200, Qactuar Rogue wrote: you will find a much better response if you ask your question on the debian-user mailing list. That list is more representative of the good people who use debian than the IRC channel. IRC is another kind of beast. It is more hit or miss. Debian does not pay people to moderate IRC or the mailing lists, we are a group of volunteers. I am surprised by the perception of IRC support in the Debian community exemplified by this mail. I do not know about your own experiences, Mark, but I have the impression that some people (still?) think that IRC support is best to be avoided, that support on the mailing lists is better and that something needs to be done about our IRC culture. You are correct in that you say that getting good support on #debian is a bit of a hit or miss in that there is no guarantee of it and it depends on when and who you run into on the channel, but there are numerous examples of people receiving *very good* support. In some cases people spend hours to debug and fix a specific problem, in others questions are answered immediately because the regulars are aware of many current problems and their solution and sometimes one does not find good support or are trolled. The latter is rare but cannot be avoided, but I should note that the channel community strives to maintain a professional and helpful athmosphere and that trolls are most often swiftly dealt with. It is a hit or miss, but some people are really happy with the support they receive on #debian and explicitly state that good and professional IRC support is I can only invite all participants in this thread and those who want to make up their mind about IRC support to spend this weekend in the channels and I would certainly be happy to see *more* DDs/DMs in #debian in particular because IRC *is* an important medium for Debian development and support. If you think that something is wrong, act accordingly and set a good example. Specific to the issue at hand: 1. Ti-Chan/Qactuar/TAKA's first words in the channel (#d on oftc) were: [00:56] Ti-chan Hi. Could someone who has a remotely comprehensive understanding of partitioning and is not a complete dumbass help me out? Which is not a very good way to start any conversation. If one seeks help it doesn't make sense to approach people you want help from in a hostile and insulting manner. The reactions were foreseeable and I can guarantee you that if Ti-Chan would have said something like: I apologise for my choice of words, but I really need help with partitioning. I do not understand FOO, BAR and BAZ and am looking for some advice on partitioning best-practices. My setup is ... and the machine will be used for ... The response would have been much different. And I would like to point out that the initial reactions were: [00:57] devil Ti-chan: maybe try that again [00:57] ompaul Ti-chan: given that one persons expert is another's beginner, you really got that question right! [00:57] ompaul btw we sat here all your life waiting to abuse you ;-) [00:58] -*- daemonkeeper is a dumbass so he can't help. [00:58] -*- devil is a comprehensive dumbass. [00:58] ompaul I am a multi ass that is dumb [00:59] Ti-chan You can straight stop picking on me. I am not here for that. And in a forum for a quality software used by millions, certain language is not appropriate. [00:59] ompaul you are here [00:59] ompaul you abused those who might help you [00:59] ompaul deal with it - life is not fair [00:59] devil Ti-chan: yeah, your language is not appropriate [00:59] amphi Ti-chan: which language did you have in mind? [01:00] ompaul amphi: something derived from the original statement I guess. Which is arguably not the perfect response, but pretty understandable and would have left ample opportunities to ask a *real* question and seek help. I really don't understand why somebody thinks that starting a conversation with strangers while using an unfamiliar medium in that manner is/was a good idea. Ti-Chan/Qactuar/TAKA might want to comment on that. 2. A bit later Ti-Chan/Qactar/TAKA joined #debian on FreeNode with the following result: [01:13] Ti-chan Hi. I have questions about partitioning. Could someone who knows about it in detail be of assistance? [01:15] dondelelcaro !tell Ti-chan -about ask [01:15] ompaul Ti-chan: I don't know, what exactly is your question, some background would be useful. [01:16] Ti-chan What folders to create a seperate partition for and whit what size. (I have my own idea about it) Would very nice if I could discuss this with someone [01:17] daemonkeeper There is not a single, correct answer to that question,
Re: Greaat disappointment
Hi, On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 11:38:01AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Installing(!) an IRC client and diving into the world of IRC is an investment. Totally, but please also honor the (huge!) investment by the people doing first-level support in #debian (both on irc.debian.org and irc.freenode.net). They spent an awful lot of time helping out people; that some fall through the cracks is unfortunate, but not really possible to avoid. And I am not talking about Ti-chan here, who I guess did not really merit the attention at all. I remember some time ago when I used to be in there how frequently frustrated people from #ubuntu tried to sneak in to get support by claiming to run testing, cause the support in #d was much better. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20111001115704.gc14...@nighthawk.chemicalconnection.dyndns.org
Re: Greaat disappointment
Hello Mr. Halchenko, with all due respect, do you think a statement like the following is a good start if you ask someone for help? Hi. Could someone who has a remotely comprehensive understanding of partitioning and is not a complete dumbass help me out? I mean, a certain amount of respect would be nice. Also, they tried to point out, what you did wrong and you went straight ahead: OK. If here is anyone over the age of 14 AND you know about partitioning, please help me out. I need help. That is why I came here. Next time, please think about you statement when you ask someone for your help. Have a nice day, Christian smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Greaat disappointment
Le samedi 01 octobre 2011 à 01:55 +0200, Qactuar Rogue a écrit : I still want Linux. I hate Windows. Microsoft is a disgusting transnational organization. OMFFSM, how could I miss that? → sent by cact...@hotmail.com Obvious troll is trolling. kthxbye, -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Greaat disappointment
Hi. I was planning on installing Debian on a new laptop that had Windows 7 pre-installed. I was researching the methods of installation for two weeks (partitioning etc). Then right before beginning the disk wipe and later the installation I had problems deciding on my own for what kind of partition table to create and wanted to have feedback from somebody who has a comprehensive understanding on the subject. I went on IRC. Firstly I tried #Debian on irc.debian.org then I tried #Debian at chat.freenode.com I would like to express my greatest disappointment regarding the `helpfulness` of the people on the channel. On irc.debian.org everyone was a complete dumbass. On both channels I was told off for asking my questions by PMing someone who replied to my posting on the channel. My nick was Ti-chan. You can research if you please. I did nothing, just kindly asked for help regarding partitioning. In a community that is supposed to stand for friendship and kindness, on a channel that is there for helping people who choose Linux as an alternative, having people behave with you so unkindly is a shame. I still want Linux. I hate Windows. Microsoft is a disgusting transnational organization. I do not want Debian anymore however. I do not wish to use software developed by those people who are surfing on your IRC channels, thank you very much. I also considered investing into the Debian project by donating millions of dollars. To help the creation of software which can effectively conquer the popularity of Windows, A software which reaches most end users and helps them understand the pros of Linux and the cons of Windows. So that the computing world is reformed and pulled out of the shit it is currently deep in. I chose Debian because it is a community driven development project. Free of the idiotic marketing strategies and instability of other distributions. I would be most grateful if this message reached one of your key people. I do not understand how such negative experiences can happen to anybody in the Linux world. As a human being I am truly ashamed for such unkind people and as a denizen of this planet I am outraged that entire projects can slip because of people`s bad experience with Linux. Nobody can be surprised that most home users go for Windows. Many bad things can be said about Microsoft but they at least have the obligation of keeping an effective customer support service up and going. Thanks for reading my random ramble mortal. You may return to your duties. We may hear of each other again. I may consider creating my own foundation for an all new OS. Friendly greetings, TAKA
Re: Greaat disappointment
Hi Qactuar, NB: crossposting to debian-devel since my question below is Debian developers oriented sad to hear that you had such a displeasure... as an excuse I can only say that it is not necessarily that people who advised you on the IRC channels you have tried -- are the ones who develop Debian. Chat rooms are open to anyone to participate so YMMV, so if I were you I would be more careful on the judgments about the project. As far as installation goes -- it should have been quite straightforward having you chosen official images/instructions from http://www.debian.org/distrib/ and just following questions of Debian installation process which gives you options to facilitate installation of Debian in your scenario. If something doesn't work -- then please state what was not... BUT your unfortunate experience lead me to actual question now: why http://irc.debian.org leads to a webpage which visually seems to have nothing with Debian in its appearance? I understand that it leads to OFTC servers, but indeed it might be confusing for newcomers. Could we ask for a VirtualHost entry for irc.debian.org with few simple pages so we have adequate appearance/description ? Cheers, On Sat, 01 Oct 2011, Qactuar Rogue wrote: Hi. I was planning on installing Debian on a new laptop that had Windows 7 pre-installed. I was researching the methods of installation for two weeks (partitioning etc). Then right before beginning the disk wipe and later the installation I had problems deciding on my own for what kind of partition table to create and wanted to have feedback from somebody who has a comprehensive understanding on the subject. I went on IRC. Firstly I tried #Debian on irc.debian.org then I tried #Debian at chat.freenode.com I would like to express my greatest disappointment regarding the `helpfulness` of the people on the channel. On irc.debian.org everyone was a complete dumbass. On both channels I was told off for asking my questions by PMing someone who replied to my posting on the channel. My nick was Ti-chan. You can research if you please. I did nothing, just kindly asked for help regarding partitioning. In a community that is supposed to stand for friendship and kindness, on a channel that is there for helping people who choose Linux as an alternative, having people behave with you so unkindly is a shame. I still want Linux. I hate Windows. Microsoft is a disgusting transnational organization. I do not want Debian anymore however. I do not wish to use software developed by those people who are surfing on your IRC channels, thank you very much. I also considered investing into the Debian project by donating millions of dollars. To help the creation of software which can effectively conquer the popularity of Windows, A software which reaches most end users and helps them understand the pros of Linux and the cons of Windows. So that the computing world is reformed and pulled out of the shit it is currently deep in. I chose Debian because it is a community driven development project. Free of the idiotic marketing strategies and instability of other distributions. I would be most grateful if this message reached one of your key people. I do not understand how such negative experiences can happen to anybody in the Linux world. As a human being I am truly ashamed for such unkind people and as a denizen of this planet I am outraged that entire projects can slip because of people`s bad experience with Linux. Nobody can be surprised that most home users go for Windows. Many bad things can be said about Microsoft but they at least have the obligation of keeping an effective customer support service up and going. Thanks for reading my random ramble mortal. You may return to your duties. We may hear of each other again. I may consider creating my own foundation for an all new OS. Friendly greetings, TAKA -- =--= Keep in touch www.onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko www.ohloh.net/accounts/yarikoptic -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20111001002932.gl5...@onerussian.com
Re: Greaat disappointment
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Re: Greaat disappointment
On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 01:55:01AM +0200, Qactuar Rogue wrote: Hi. I was planning on installing Debian on a new laptop that had Windows 7 pre-installed. I was researching the methods of installation for two weeks (partitioning etc). Then right before beginning the disk wipe and later the installation I had problems deciding on my own for what kind of partition table to create and wanted to have feedback from somebody who has a comprehensive understanding on the subject. I went on IRC. Firstly I tried #Debian on irc.debian.org then I tried #Debian at chat.freenode.com snip Thanks for reading my random ramble mortal. You may return to your duties. We may hear of each other again. I may consider creating my own foundation for an all new OS. Friendly greetings, TAKA Hi TAKA, you will find a much better response if you ask your question on the debian-user mailing list. That list is more representative of the good people who use debian than the IRC channel. IRC is another kind of beast. It is more hit or miss. Debian does not pay people to moderate IRC or the mailing lists, we are a group of volunteers. There are developers, administrators, users and such. There are about 1,000 main debian software maintainers. But maintaining software is different than answering questions on IRC or mailing lists. The people on IRC and Mailing lists can be anyone. Please try the mailing lists on lists.debian.org, you will find nice folks there. You might also have local debian user group for even better help. my local group goes out for beers and helps new users personally. -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux ==.| http://kevix.myopenid.com..| | : :' : The Universal OS| mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/.| | `. `' http://www.debian.org/.| http://counter.li.org [#238656]| |___`-Unless I ask to be CCd,.assume I am subscribed._| -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20111001023401.GF27632@horacrux
