Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On 7/3/19 4:51 PM, Chris Lamb wrote: Adrian Bunk wrote: In this discussion here we have two pretty distinct groups of people: The first group has the opinion that Debian should honor various minorities, and that Debian in general should have also a political mission. The second group is unhappy with people being honored by Debian for non-technical reasons, and wants Debian in general to be a non-political technical project. Easy to miss, but obvious once you are aware of it: I wish to posit the existence of a third group who are not partipating in this discussion. This group are simply too exhausted and bored of making the same refutations in these debates and have long given up trying. Indeed, they likely find themselves too physically and emotionally numb to invest in -project or lists outside their niche interests. They may have even made steps to distance themselves from Debian entirely due to low-level feelings of fatigue that they cannot put words to, compounded by having no desire to be associated with a certain retrograde culture that they perceive the Project projects. If asked to charecterise this thread, they may attempt to be objective by pointing out that dissecting the minutæ of (say) Hispanic culture or the «Historikerstreit» is a distraction at best, and might even charitibly concede that the thread is a dry satire of the "just asking questions" or the "tired arguments presented as an insightfully novel rebuttal" genres. However, the majority of their response would frankly not be to its advantage, let alone repeatable in polite company. This is all to say that I would issue a not-insignificant caution to all from making crass or otherwise premature overgeneralisations about who constitutes this esteemed Project. Regards, I wish to reboot this - I think vast majority is the third group, so just vocal few (on different sides of every argument) are creating this feeling of uncertainty and discomfort. I just wish I was able to craft such fine mail myself but I am proud that Chris did it. Z
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 07:43:13AM -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 10:18:18AM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> > On Wed, 03 Jul 2019, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> > > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:33:25PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
> > > > Being german, I think that Debian should honor discriminated minorities,
> > >
> > > Being a discriminated against minority, I think Debian should *not*.
> >
> > And since Debian is do-ocracy, it's not your call. You can disagree with
> > the publicity team, but it's their call and a call they made while trying
> > to put our diversity statement into application.
> >
> My position is not one of disagreement without basis. I have found,
> through my own experience, that diversity efforts (including those like
> the pride month logo Debian logo change) end up doing more harm than
> good. By that I do not mean that they hurt the feelings of majority
> groups (though that may be an associated affect), but rather that in
> the end such efforts often further marginalize those for whom the "help"
> is meant.
Sorry if I'm belaboring the obvious, but, uhm, is this not how this has
always played out in history when some people decide to change the
status quo? Is it not only normal that in the initial and interim stage,
before the opinion of the majority is changed, pretty much any and every
action is viewed as provocative and destabilizing and leads to
a short-term increase in attacks towards the corresponding group?
The point is that each of these actions will hopefully cause maybe
a single person, maybe five people, maybe a hundred, to stop, think,
reconsider, and decide that the status quo need not necessarily remain
such. And, yes, historically there have always been people in these
groups who would say something like "oh, please, stop rocking the boat,
we are fine as long as they don't pay attention to us" - but part of
the point is to change that mindset, too.
Please note that I'm not saying "it's okay for everyone to harass
activists and people for whose benefit those activists are carrying out
their activism"; I'm also not saying "oh come on, stop complaining, of
course you'll have to take some flack". I have seen close friends of
mine get hurt in such ways, some by words, some by more than words, and
while I personally have not been on the receiving end, for all that it's
worth, I do emphatize as much as it is possible for me to.
G'luck,
Peter
--
Peter Pentchev roam@{ringlet.net,debian.org,FreeBSD.org} p...@storpool.com
PGP key:http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc
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Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Roberto, On 04/07/2019 12:43, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > My position is not one of disagreement without basis. I have found, > through my own experience, that diversity efforts (including those like > the pride month logo Debian logo change) end up doing more harm than > good. Could you expand on what is your experience on this? I have the opposite view, being a person represented under the LGBTQI+ umbrella, I find these efforts very positive and helpful. They make me feel the community care about people like me, but more importantly, it shows other people under the same umbrella that it is OK to be open about their identity in our community. That they will be able to contribute as their whole selves, and that they will not need to hide, like they need to do in so many aspects of their lives. To give one simple and concrete example, last week I sent an email to -private revealing something about my identity, and among the many lovely messages of support, I got a message telling me how a relative of a DD had experiences similar to mine. I'd like to think that me being showing it is OK to be queer in Debian might help that person someday approach our community. Representation does matter. > What course is available to me and those like > me who believe we should "do nothing"? I think the main issue is that most people who advocated for that position where doing it in the abstract, and were not part of the marginalised groups in discussion. It is not possible to talk about inclusion completely in the abstract, as each marginalised group has very different problems and needs. I think you can contribute to the debate sharing how this impacts you personally. -- Martina Ferrari (Tina, the artist formerly known as Tincho)
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 10:18:18AM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote: > On Wed, 03 Jul 2019, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:33:25PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote: > > > Being german, I think that Debian should honor discriminated minorities, > > > > Being a discriminated against minority, I think Debian should *not*. > > And since Debian is do-ocracy, it's not your call. You can disagree with > the publicity team, but it's their call and a call they made while trying > to put our diversity statement into application. > My position is not one of disagreement without basis. I have found, through my own experience, that diversity efforts (including those like the pride month logo Debian logo change) end up doing more harm than good. By that I do not mean that they hurt the feelings of majority groups (though that may be an associated affect), but rather that in the end such efforts often further marginalize those for whom the "help" is meant. The point of Debian being a do-ocracy is not lost on me. In fact, when it comes to technical matters, it is the superior approach. Even in difficult technical matters (like the init system debate) where the choices amount to "do this" and "do nothing" there is a technical committee which can act as arbiter. However, when it comes to non-technical matters, esepcially when one potential course of action is "do nothing," there is no such possibility. Those who wish to "help" marginalized groups by displays such as the pride month support have an avenue to "do" what they believe is best in this do-ocracy of ours. What course is available to me and those like me who believe we should "do nothing"? It would seem that public discussions that attempt to address that are met with great resistance and with many attacks against the character, motivations, and demographics of those who hold that position. > Can we stop this discussion now, please? > Since it seems like on this occassion and at least one prior occassion my expression of my position/opinion on what Debian as a project should or should not do based on my own experience with discrimination and supposed diversity efforts has been met with multiple responses of the general sentiment "be quiet, your opinion is not wanted here, let the others speak," I can only conclude that I have not been sufficiently oppressed to have my opinions count. > Unless you really want to revert their decision via a general > resolution... but even in that case, the discussion here doesn't help to > go forward with this. > Perhaps you feel like this discussion doesn't help because nobody has ever tried to "help" you by targeting a diversity effort at you. -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Hi! On 04.07.19 11:57, Adrian Bunk wrote: > Adding debian-project back in my reply since this is about a public mail > I wrote, and a statement by the AH team is not a private conversation. This looks like you think you're being treated unfairly and want to make that public. So here goes another public reply to you, even though we're now completely off-topic, as said in my previous email already. > On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 01:01:14AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 07:05:54PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: >>> >>> Some US universities do consider race in admission. >>> It is called "affirmative action". >>> >>> White people need to be better than black people for university admission. >>> Asian people need to be better than white people for university admission. >> >> This kind of statement has *no* place in Debian forums. >> >> Regardless of culture or background, it is utterly inappropriate within >> the Debian community to characterise affirmative action as "black >> people don't need to be as good as white people" etc. > > my understanding of affirmative action in the US is that where it is in > place some white people get admitted to university, even though asian > people with the same qualifications are not being admitted. Note that in the US, a classification of something called "race" [0] has been introduced with the first census in 1790. It has always been a political instrument, which originally aimed at giving the Southern states more seats in the US House of Representatives [1]. In the 1960s, according to Keith Prewett, author of "What Is 'Your' Race? The Census and Our Flawed Efforts to Classify Americans" [2], the ethnical statistics of the census suddenly transformed into a tool to fight discrimination: While knowing the quota of black people in a given place or region, it looked simple to imagine and introduce quotas for universities (as an example) to fight that discrimination. Prewett says that "having a hammer in your hand, every problem looks like a nail" [3]. 60 years later, there might be a eed to create "appropriate tools to fight inequalities" [3], instead of using tools which "bear the risk of reinforcing the racial divisions they pretend to fight" [3]. Now, back to what you seem to be trying to say. In your argumentation, you reuse the same categories that you pretend to be denouncing at the same time (you denounce affirmative action based on the "race" concept of the US census, but you reuse the terms of that same census without interrogating them). Why are you doing this? I have the impression that you keep bringing up US political issues to stress supposed unsolvable cultural differences along the lines of good and evil, i.e.making up an imaginary space in which it's "us" versus "them". But such categories are not sufficient to describe and understand the world we live in. > Is there anything or anyone in the Open Source world providing support > by highlighting cultural differences, and how global Open Source > projects can handle them best for welcoming global diversity? I think you are using language and concepts that are not commonly shared by everyone participating in this thread: - using the term Open Source in favour of free software is one thing, - "cultural differences" is a term that sounds good on the outside, but the way you have been using it in this thread over-emphasizes differences. This is also called "othering", and creates even more potential for discrimination. (To be clear: you seem to want to stretch the differences of an imaginary group of "native English speakers" versus another imaginary group of "native German speakers", and you attest both groups a common cultural background which in itself is highly controversial in all sorts of ways.) - "global diversity": I don't understand what this is supposed to mean exactly and I'm not up for doing more guess work. I'd like to end this "discussion" with a nice reading recommendation, an RFC for diversity at the IETF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7704 Cheers! Ulrike [0] "something" because the term is unclear, and may refer to national or tribal origin, skin color, language groups etc. I personally reject this term in any configuration possible. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Fifths_Compromise [2] https://press.princeton.edu/titles/10032.html [3] I'm quoting this from https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2019/07/BREVILLE/60012 in French and I'm translating this back into English.
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Adding debian-project back in my reply since this is about a public mail I wrote, and a statement by the AH team is not a private conversation. On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 01:01:14AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > Adrian, Steve, > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 07:05:54PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > > > >Some US universities do consider race in admission. > >It is called "affirmative action". > > > >White people need to be better than black people for university admission. > >Asian people need to be better than white people for university admission. > > This kind of statement has *no* place in Debian forums. > > Regardless of culture or background, it is utterly inappropriate within > the Debian community to characterise affirmative action as "black > people don't need to be as good as white people" etc. my understanding of affirmative action in the US is that where it is in place some white people get admitted to university, even though asian people with the same qualifications are not being admitted. Which sounds to me as if we white people don't need to be as good as asian people for getting admitted to university. I would consider this racism against a minority, but due to your different cultural background you might consider it appropriate. I am coming from a cultural background where asking about ethnicity during university admission would be considered inappropriate. And becoming aware of such differences makes me for example understand better why I consider Debian Outreachy racist, but other people do not. If anything I say is incorrect, please say what and why. And please do so publicly, otherwise whatever incorrect things I wrote might be considered correct by other people following the discussion. On a higher level, I wonder how much of such conflicts like differing opinions on whether Debian should support pridemonth are based on people in the US and UK mistakenly thinking that problems and discussions and solutions for diversity in their countries would also apply 1:1 to a global project. Is there anything or anyone in the Open Source world providing support by highlighting cultural differences, and how global Open Source projects can handle them best for welcoming global diversity? > Steve, for the AH team cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Jul 03 2019, Adrian Bunk wrote: > In this gay pride month discussion what is politically correct for > people in the US is considered offensive by people in Germany, and > what would be considered politically correct by Germans would be > considered offensive by people in the US. I would prefer if you could acknowledge that these are your personal feelings (as a German, I presume), but not necessarily the feelings of the "people in Germany". If you have more representative sources for this (something like a poll maybe), it would be nice to give references. Best, -Nikolaus -- GPG Fingerprint: ED31 791B 2C5C 1613 AF38 8B8A D113 FCAC 3C4E 599F »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.«
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, 03 Jul 2019, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:33:25PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote: > > Being german, I think that Debian should honor discriminated minorities, > > Being a discriminated against minority, I think Debian should *not*. And since Debian is do-ocracy, it's not your call. You can disagree with the publicity team, but it's their call and a call they made while trying to put our diversity statement into application. Can we stop this discussion now, please? Unless you really want to revert their decision via a general resolution... but even in that case, the discussion here doesn't help to go forward with this. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer Support Debian LTS: https://www.freexian.com/services/debian-lts.html Learn to master Debian: https://debian-handbook.info/get/
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 09:54:38PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 08:51:38PM +0200, Fabian Grünbichler wrote: > > another case in point from last month(!) and a little more to the South, > > where Vienna hosted this year's Europride: > > > > https://www.wienerlinien.at/eportal3/ep/contentView.do/pageTypeId/66526/programId/74577/contentTypeId/1001/channelId/-47186/contentId/4203520 > > > > the rainbow flags on trams have been a stable of the weeks leading up to > > pride for years: > > > > https://www.vienna.at/2019/05/20190530-Regenbogenf%C3%A4hnchen-1-1-4-3-330933700-933x700.jpg > > > > one of the main sponsors this year was REWE group, which everyone from > > Austria or Germany is probably familiar with, but as were others like > > Coca-Cola, one of the biggest banks in Austria, Siemens and some > > public/privatized stuff like unions, state railways, public transport of > > Vienna, .. full list here: https://europride2019.at/sponsors-partners/ > > Did any of those companies change their website logo for a month? The Viennese public transport company has been doing it for years on their tram ways (not sure of the exact duration, but a few weeks at least around the Vienna Pride and Lifeball), and had lots of ads and stuff like slogans on their electronic schedule displays this year. Coca-Cola sold (still stocked in some shops) bottles heavily featuring pride flags and slogans, which is arguably a lot more visible than changing a logo on a website. REWE put up rainbow/pride flags on each of their shop entrances a few years ago, those are still there today and year-round (https://www.rewe-group.com/de/newsroom/stories/rewe-setzt-auf-regenbogen/). Siemens heavily promoted their sponsoring of and participation in Europride on Facebook at least, their last two posts are pride-related. Those are just the first instances that came to my mind without googling, or that were linked directly from the index of their respective web sites. It does feel kind of ridiculous to have to post message like this (and feel like I have to promote or defend corporations that I don't care about at all) - obviously companies sponsoring an event like Europride also promote that fact publicly, it's the point of sponsoring after all. Some probably do it for PR reasons, some do it because their employees take the initiative, for some it might be an area of personal interest for people making such decisions. That it is no problem[1] in a country with a political climate like Austria to host such an event and get it sponsored by lots of big, boring companies, but that it causes such waves inside Debian to change the logo on the website to that of the appropriate Debian team speaks volumes IMHO. It probably also shows why such teams and initiatives are still sorely needed today and for the forseeable future. I likely won't post another mail to this thread, it's past the point of being tiresome already. 1: Of course there was the usual sorry and small lot of fundamental christians and neo-nazis to protest the pride parade itself. Yes, this is a very accurate description of who organized that and showed up there.
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 08:51:38PM +0200, Fabian Grünbichler wrote: > another case in point from last month(!) and a little more to the South, > where Vienna hosted this year's Europride: > > https://www.wienerlinien.at/eportal3/ep/contentView.do/pageTypeId/66526/programId/74577/contentTypeId/1001/channelId/-47186/contentId/4203520 > > the rainbow flags on trams have been a stable of the weeks leading up to > pride for years: > > https://www.vienna.at/2019/05/20190530-Regenbogenf%C3%A4hnchen-1-1-4-3-330933700-933x700.jpg > > one of the main sponsors this year was REWE group, which everyone from > Austria or Germany is probably familiar with, but as were others like > Coca-Cola, one of the biggest banks in Austria, Siemens and some > public/privatized stuff like unions, state railways, public transport of > Vienna, .. full list here: https://europride2019.at/sponsors-partners/ Did any of those companies change their website logo for a month? Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany| lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 07:59:35PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote: > Marc Haber writes: > > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 10:32:04AM -0600, Jason Crain wrote: > >> On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:40:54PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > >> > In this gay pride month discussion what is politically correct for > >> > people in the US is considered offensive by people in Germany, and > >> > what would be considered politically correct by Germans would be > >> > considered offensive by people in the US. > >> > >> I have a hard time believing that German culture prevents you (or > >> Debian) from supporting gay pride, > > > > That is not what Adrian tried to say. Don't try turning his words around > > against him. No German company would change its logo for a pride month, > > and if they did, other minorities would sue for their own logo month on > > basis of discrimination. > > It is not a company, but the Berlin government (text in german): > > https://www.rbb24.de/panorama/beitrag/2019/07/pride-berlin-csd-lesbisch-schwul-stadtfest.html > > Caption: "Pride weeks start: Berlin town hall hoist the rainbow flag" > > And if I remember correctly, Travis CI, which *is* a german company > (Rigaer Straße 8, 10247 Berlin, Germany, just in my neighborhood) had a > gay pride logo last year on their web page. > > As I said: this is not an anglo-german cultural conflict. > > Best reards > > Ole another case in point from last month(!) and a little more to the South, where Vienna hosted this year's Europride: https://www.wienerlinien.at/eportal3/ep/contentView.do/pageTypeId/66526/programId/74577/contentTypeId/1001/channelId/-47186/contentId/4203520 the rainbow flags on trams have been a stable of the weeks leading up to pride for years: https://www.vienna.at/2019/05/20190530-Regenbogenf%C3%A4hnchen-1-1-4-3-330933700-933x700.jpg one of the main sponsors this year was REWE group, which everyone from Austria or Germany is probably familiar with, but as were others like Coca-Cola, one of the biggest banks in Austria, Siemens and some public/privatized stuff like unions, state railways, public transport of Vienna, .. full list here: https://europride2019.at/sponsors-partners/
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Marc Haber writes: > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 10:32:04AM -0600, Jason Crain wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:40:54PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: >> > In this gay pride month discussion what is politically correct for >> > people in the US is considered offensive by people in Germany, and >> > what would be considered politically correct by Germans would be >> > considered offensive by people in the US. >> >> I have a hard time believing that German culture prevents you (or >> Debian) from supporting gay pride, > > That is not what Adrian tried to say. Don't try turning his words around > against him. No German company would change its logo for a pride month, > and if they did, other minorities would sue for their own logo month on > basis of discrimination. It is not a company, but the Berlin government (text in german): https://www.rbb24.de/panorama/beitrag/2019/07/pride-berlin-csd-lesbisch-schwul-stadtfest.html Caption: "Pride weeks start: Berlin town hall hoist the rainbow flag" And if I remember correctly, Travis CI, which *is* a german company (Rigaer Straße 8, 10247 Berlin, Germany, just in my neighborhood) had a gay pride logo last year on their web page. As I said: this is not an anglo-german cultural conflict. Best reards Ole
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 11:51:18AM -0300, Chris Lamb wrote: > I wish to posit the existence of a third group who are not partipating > in this discussion. > This group are simply too exhausted and bored of making the same > refutations in these debates and have long given up trying. Indeed, > they likely find themselves too physically and emotionally numb to > invest in -project or lists outside their niche interests. They may > have even made steps to distance themselves from Debian entirely due > to low-level feelings of fatigue that they cannot put words to, > compounded by having no desire to be associated with a certain > retrograde culture that they perceive the Project projects. This. So very much this. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:33:25PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote: > Adrian Bunk writes: > > In this discussion here we have two pretty distinct groups of people: > > > > The first group has the opinion that Debian should honor various > > minorities, and that Debian in general should have also a political > > mission. > > > > The second group is unhappy with people being honored by Debian for > > non-technical reasons, and wants Debian in general to be a non-political > > technical project. > > > > Easy to miss, but obvious once you are aware of it: > > The people with English as native language are in the first group. > > The people with German as native language are in the second group. > > Sorry, but can we stop this a bit? > > Being german, I think that Debian should honor discriminated minorities, Being a discriminated against minority, I think Debian should *not*. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 10:32:04AM -0600, Jason Crain wrote: > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:40:54PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > > In this gay pride month discussion what is politically correct for > > people in the US is considered offensive by people in Germany, and > > what would be considered politically correct by Germans would be > > considered offensive by people in the US. > > I have a hard time believing that German culture prevents you (or > Debian) from supporting gay pride, That is not what Adrian tried to say. Don't try turning his words around against him. No German company would change its logo for a pride month, and if they did, other minorities would sue for their own logo month on basis of discrimination. Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany| lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:40:54PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > In this gay pride month discussion what is politically correct for > people in the US is considered offensive by people in Germany, and > what would be considered politically correct by Germans would be > considered offensive by people in the US. I have a hard time believing that German culture prevents you (or Debian) from supporting gay pride, when I am pretty certain that there are gay pride events in Germany. > And it is not correct if we are asked to learn about your history > and cultural background just for being allowed to discuss that we > consider something offensive. Which is why I explained the significance of Black Lives Matter and All Lives Matter. And while those two movements are specific to the US, the implications of that tactic, of distracting from minority issues, should apply cross-culturally. Several of the things you've said, especially the suggestion to "honor a month of white heterosexual men", are so frequently brought up by white nationalists in the US that it's difficult for me to write it off as a cultural difference. I second the suggestion that you should research diversity and civil rights issues to avoid that connotation.
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 04:07:40PM +0200, Ulrike Uhlig wrote: > Hi! > > > On 02.07.19 22:21, Adrian Bunk wrote: > >> On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 08:14:40AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: > > > Every country has its own conventions, problems and solutions. > > But these are often specific to one country, and not applicable > > to other countries or global projects. > > People should be expected to research movements that are relevant only > > in a handful of countries with < 10% of the earths population for being > > allow to discuss on Debian lists. > > > Let's look at some non-obvious but possibly relevant differences: > > > > People in the US are used to minority quotas in various places. > > > > In most European countries it would be considered unacceptable racism > > if skin color would play any role in university admission. >... > So surely, on paper, universities do not discriminate, >... Some US universities do consider race in admission. It is called "affirmative action". White people need to be better than black people for university admission. Asian people need to be better than white people for university admission. And this consideration of race is done officially. I have never heard about a German university officially stating that they are giving preferred treatment in admission for people with Turkish roots because they are underrepresented among students. Officially asking people about their ancestry in university admission would also remind people of terms like Ariernachweis and Halbjude, which makes the holocaust a reason against doing that in Germany. > Cheers, > Ulrike >... cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Adrian Bunk writes: > In this discussion here we have two pretty distinct groups of people: > > The first group has the opinion that Debian should honor various > minorities, and that Debian in general should have also a political > mission. > > The second group is unhappy with people being honored by Debian for > non-technical reasons, and wants Debian in general to be a non-political > technical project. > > Easy to miss, but obvious once you are aware of it: > The people with English as native language are in the first group. > The people with German as native language are in the second group. Sorry, but can we stop this a bit? Being german, I think that Debian should honor discriminated minorities, and I also think that it is impossible to encapsulate the politics from a technical project. And I am sure that I am not the only one. At least my professional and personal environment goes into the same direction. If you like, you can even derivate that from the german history. People are not only formed by their national culture. They are as well formed by their professional contacts, by their friends, by the way they get information and so on. The conflict that we have here is not an anglo-german (or other) cultural one. It is one of the specific people involved in Debian, who are only a very small, absolutely non-representative portion of the population of any country. Best regards Ole
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Martina Ferrari writes ("Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them"):
> Ian, Norbert observation seems to be true. While you have highlighted
> problematic behaviour in many cases, it does seem to be the case that
> you are using non-blind CCs to AH as a way to put extra pressure on
> people you disagree with.
That was not my intention, but now that you point it out, I can see
that this is an obvious effect/interpretation.
> Please, don't do that unless absolutely
> necessary, you can always BCC.
I will try to follow your advice, sorry.
Ian.
--
Ian JacksonThese opinions are my own.
If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Norbert, On 03/07/2019 14:44, Norbert Preining wrote: > This is a common pattern in Ian's emails. I would dare to call it > "sublimal threatening". Unfortunately nobody in Debian seems to think > that this is harassment, in particular the AH team seems not to think > so. Please, do not speculate on what we have or have not said to other members of the project, we do most of our work in private channels to respect everybody's privacy. After that caveat, I want to address Ian. Ian, Norbert observation seems to be true. While you have highlighted problematic behaviour in many cases, it does seem to be the case that you are using non-blind CCs to AH as a way to put extra pressure on people you disagree with. Please, don't do that unless absolutely necessary, you can always BCC. -- Martina Ferrari (Tina, the artist formerly known as Tincho)
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Adrian Bunk wrote: > In this discussion here we have two pretty distinct groups of people: > > The first group has the opinion that Debian should honor various > minorities, and that Debian in general should have also a political > mission. > > The second group is unhappy with people being honored by Debian for > non-technical reasons, and wants Debian in general to be a non-political > technical project. > > Easy to miss, but obvious once you are aware of it: I wish to posit the existence of a third group who are not partipating in this discussion. This group are simply too exhausted and bored of making the same refutations in these debates and have long given up trying. Indeed, they likely find themselves too physically and emotionally numb to invest in -project or lists outside their niche interests. They may have even made steps to distance themselves from Debian entirely due to low-level feelings of fatigue that they cannot put words to, compounded by having no desire to be associated with a certain retrograde culture that they perceive the Project projects. If asked to charecterise this thread, they may attempt to be objective by pointing out that dissecting the minutæ of (say) Hispanic culture or the «Historikerstreit» is a distraction at best, and might even charitibly concede that the thread is a dry satire of the "just asking questions" or the "tired arguments presented as an insightfully novel rebuttal" genres. However, the majority of their response would frankly not be to its advantage, let alone repeatable in polite company. This is all to say that I would issue a not-insignificant caution to all from making crass or otherwise premature overgeneralisations about who constitutes this esteemed Project. Regards, -- ,''`. : :' : Chris Lamb `. `'` la...@debian.org chris-lamb.co.uk `-
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 07:05:08AM -0600, Jason Crain wrote: > On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:21:03PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 08:14:40AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: > > > > > > [listmaster copied in hopes they will agree with my assessment here] > > >... > > > If you are going to participate in a diversity discussion beyond a > > > certain point you do need to actually spend some time with google just > > > as you would for any technical topic. > > > > > > In this instance, researching arguments about privilege, criticism of > > > the all lives matter movement, explanations behind the black lives > > > matter movement (and why it is important to its members) would all be > > > valuable. > > >... > > > > ... > > People should [not] be expected to research movements that are relevant > > only > > in a handful of countries with < 10% of the earths population for being > > allow to discuss on Debian lists. > > The Black Lives Matter and All Lives Matter references were intended to > explain that the suggestion to replace gay pride month with an "all are > welcome" event is not going to be viewed as inclusive, but is going to > be viewed as an attempt to dismiss and ignore LGBTQIA+ / other minority > issues. >... ... be viewed *by people in the US* as an attempt to ... Slavery in the United States, the US Civil War, Martin Luther King Jr., Black Lives Matter, All Lives Matter - these are part of your cultural background that can explain how you think about these things. Starting and losing two world wars, the holocaust, Germany being divided after the second world war, people living in non-free societies 1933-1945 and in East Germany then until 1990 - these are part of the German cultural background and can explain how we Germans think about things. In this gay pride month discussion what is politically correct for people in the US is considered offensive by people in Germany, and what would be considered politically correct by Germans would be considered offensive by people in the US. This is the root cause of disagreement in this discussion. And it is not correct if we are asked to learn about your history and cultural background just for being allowed to discuss that we consider something offensive. Diversity in a global project requires accepting that there are major cultural differences between participants. cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Hi!
> On 02.07.19 22:21, Adrian Bunk wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 08:14:40AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Every country has its own conventions, problems and solutions.
> But these are often specific to one country, and not applicable
> to other countries or global projects.
> People should be expected to research movements that are relevant only
> in a handful of countries with < 10% of the earths population for being
> allow to discuss on Debian lists.
> Let's look at some non-obvious but possibly relevant differences:
>
> People in the US are used to minority quotas in various places.
>
> In most European countries it would be considered unacceptable racism
> if skin color would play any role in university admission.
This sentence sounds nice in theory, but does unfortunately not tell us
anything about actual racism, social differences, disadvantages and
discrimination that minorities do experience in Europe, not only in
universities.
Your sentence makes it look like discrimination does not exist, so I'd
like to invite you to read up a bit before making such a bold statement.
- How is one's origin linked to social class?
- How is one's gender linked to class?
Search engines might help with the search term "social reproduction", as
coined by Bourdieu. [1]
So surely, on paper, universities do not discriminate, but structurally,
there is discrimination against minorities, and this can be seen in all
sorts of statistics (wage differences between women and men, actual
student numbers with "migratory background" [2] as being
not-born-from-German-passport-holding-parents is called in German
administrations).
> Children in the US grow up learning that they are living in the greatest
> country in the world, an example for the world.
Sigh. It happens that cultural hegemony is often inadvertedly exerted by
some people socialized in the USA (or France, or Japan, or Germany or
Russia or ${country}). Sometimes people are unable to see that people
who grew up elsewhere have not the same cultural references as them.
Let's point it out to them, when it happens but let's not make it a
binary opposition in a world view which goes along the lines of good and
evil.
The image that you depict of the world opposes one (supposed) value
system to the other, however, I would argue that it is a matter of
socialization, not of any immovable cultural difference.
> Children in Germany grow up learning that "I am proud of being German"
> is an unacceptable antisemitic expression, nearly synonymous to
> "I am proud of the holocaust".
This might be true, in particular for the generation whose parents and
grand-parents were alive during 1933-45. But the issue is not about
coming from a country with the nazi past. Remember? other countries had
similar movements, from the Italian fascists, Spain had Franco, France
had the Vichy government under Pétain. The issue is instead that it is
totally absurd to be "proud" of a nation, whichever it is.
> In this discussion here we have two pretty distinct groups of people:
>
> The first group has the opinion that Debian should honor various
> minorities, and that Debian in general should have also a political
> mission.
>
> The second group is unhappy with people being honored by Debian for
> non-technical reasons, and wants Debian in general to be a non-political
> technical project.
>
> Easy to miss, but obvious once you are aware of it:
I certainly believe that there were more peole involved in this thread
than German and English native speakers.
> The people with English as native language are in the first group.
> The people with German as native language are in the second group.
Uh. No. As a German native speaker am definitely not unhappy "with
people being honored by Debian for non-technical reasons, and wants
Debian in general to be a non-political technical project" and I think
you should refrain from making such assumptions.
On a sidenote, I noticed that ~98% of the people who expressed their
view on this thread are white heterosexual (to my knowledge) males. What
does this tell us?
> It is likely not the language itself and causes might be different
> from what I outlined above, but it looks pretty clear to me that
> language/cultural/geographical differences are the root cause of
> these disagreements.
>
> And this makes you appear very offensive, and it might even drive people
> out of Debian, if you try to push your groups opinion in Debian
> mistakenly thinking people who fundamentally disagree with you would
> only be uninformed.
I agree with Sam, and I think this thread has really nothing to do with
debian-project anymore.
I am very surprised at how the above mentioned 98% people who have
voiced their rejection here, fear that politics might enter a technical
sphere. (As if this sphere was autonomous from the rest of the planet!
Spoiler alert: it is not. Your computer parts come from Kongo, Taiwan,
China. Our conversations go through globally
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On 03/07/2019 13:54, Adrian Bunk wrote: > BTW: > Was your longer reply to me intentionally only Cc'ed to > antiharassment/listmaster/leader, or could you forward > it also to debian-project? > There is nothing private involved, and if you want want action to > be taken against me for my statements in this discussion then let's > discuss this openly. I want to take the opportunity to make it clear to Adrian and everyone else that CCing Anti-Harassment, or forwarding emails, is not a request for taking actions against a person. We accept and encourage members of the community to engage the AH team early in situations where there are risks of escalating into serious misbehaviour; or when small but negative actions are seen, as to let us work with the person before that becomes a persistent pattern. Note that I am not saying anything about Adrian in particular, the conversation in general has been deteriorating, and I think everyone would do well in trying to listen to the "other" side, and disagree respectfully. In many cases, acknowledging that positions are irreconcilable and stopping the debate can be a good outcome too. -- Martina Ferrari (Tina, the artist formerly known as Tincho)
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Dear Ian, We are aware of your opinions, and your stance toward continental culture. And without doubt you showed this stance again in a very clear way. Thanks. On July 3, 2019 9:54:44 PM GMT+09:00, Adrian Bunk wrote: >On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 01:00:42PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: >BTW: >Was your longer reply to me intentionally only Cc'ed to >antiharassment/listmaster/leader, or could you forward >it also to debian-project? >There is nothing private involved, and if you want want action to >be taken against me for my statements in this discussion then let's >discuss this openly. This is a common pattern in Ian's emails. I would dare to call it "sublimal threatening". Unfortunately nobody in Debian seems to think that this is harassment, in particular the AH team seems not to think so. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:17:50PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:21:03PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > > People in the US are used to minority quotas in various places. > > > > In most European countries it would be considered unacceptable racism > > if skin color would play any role in university admission. > [...] > > Children in the US grow up learning that they are living in the greatest > > country in the world, an example for the world. > > > > Children in Germany grow up learning that "I am proud of being German" > > is an unacceptable antisemitic expression, nearly synonymous to > > "I am proud of the holocaust". > [...] > > This. This and the rest of your post. > You nailed it. I fully agree with Adrian. We have a cultural issue here. Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany| lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:21:03PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 08:14:40AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: > > > > [listmaster copied in hopes they will agree with my assessment here] > >... > > If you are going to participate in a diversity discussion beyond a > > certain point you do need to actually spend some time with google just > > as you would for any technical topic. > > > > In this instance, researching arguments about privilege, criticism of > > the all lives matter movement, explanations behind the black lives > > matter movement (and why it is important to its members) would all be > > valuable. > >... > > ... > People should [not] be expected to research movements that are relevant only > in a handful of countries with < 10% of the earths population for being > allow to discuss on Debian lists. The Black Lives Matter and All Lives Matter references were intended to explain that the suggestion to replace gay pride month with an "all are welcome" event is not going to be viewed as inclusive, but is going to be viewed as an attempt to dismiss and ignore LGBTQIA+ / other minority issues. > Hispanic people only being welcome for diversity in Debian if they > already have the privilege of being in the US, but not welcome for > diversity in Debian if they live in Mexico or South America might > only make sense from a US-only point of view. The US has a long history of racism and misogyny, and those issues are especially prevalent in the tech community. I expect that every country has similar issues, though the details on who is impacted are likely different.
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 01:00:42PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Adam Borowski writes ("Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them"):
> > On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:21:03PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > People in the US are used to minority quotas in various places.
> > >
> > > In most European countries it would be considered unacceptable racism
> > > if skin color would play any role in university admission.
>...
> 3. What you say about positive discrimination is simply untrue in at
> least the UK. See for example Equality Act 2010 Part II Chapter 2,
> "Positive action".
Don't blame Adam for things I said.
"most" != "all", and AFAIK the UK differs from continental Europe on
that and is closer to what is being done in the US.
Which also matches what side people from the UK are in this discussion.
cu
Adrian
BTW:
Was your longer reply to me intentionally only Cc'ed to
antiharassment/listmaster/leader, or could you forward
it also to debian-project?
There is nothing private involved, and if you want want action to
be taken against me for my statements in this discussion then let's
discuss this openly.
--
"Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Adam Borowski writes ("Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them"):
> On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:21:03PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > People in the US are used to minority quotas in various places.
> >
> > In most European countries it would be considered unacceptable racism
> > if skin color would play any role in university admission.
> [...]
> > Children in the US grow up learning that they are living in the greatest
> > country in the world, an example for the world.
> >
> > Children in Germany grow up learning that "I am proud of being German"
> > is an unacceptable antisemitic expression, nearly synonymous to
> > "I am proud of the holocaust".
> [...]
>
> This. This and the rest of your post.
> You nailed it.
I think this is compete nonsense.
1. Those of us who are in favour of promoting diversity this way
include Russ and Colin and me and numerous other people from whatever
side of the Atlantic and elsewhere.
2. The stuff about Germany and the Nazis, wtf ? Is this some kind of
crazy alt-right dogwhistle ? It has no relevance here.
3. What you say about positive discrimination is simply untrue in at
least the UK. See for example Equality Act 2010 Part II Chapter 2,
"Positive action".
--
Ian JacksonThese opinions are my own.
If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:21:03PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > People in the US are used to minority quotas in various places. > > In most European countries it would be considered unacceptable racism > if skin color would play any role in university admission. [...] > Children in the US grow up learning that they are living in the greatest > country in the world, an example for the world. > > Children in Germany grow up learning that "I am proud of being German" > is an unacceptable antisemitic expression, nearly synonymous to > "I am proud of the holocaust". [...] This. This and the rest of your post. You nailed it. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ At least spammers address me right: "Hello beautiful!". ⠈⠳⣄
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:21:03PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: >... > People should be expected to research movements that are relevant only >... People should *not* be expected to ... cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
