Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes: Francesca Ciceri writes (Diversity statement for the Debian Project): So, I wrote a draft - mainly based on the one [4] created for Ubuntu by Matt Zimmerman with the help of Mary Gardiner, Valerie Aurora and Benjamin Mako Hill - and I'd like to propose it to the DPL to be official published. I agree with the motives behind this. But I have are some difficulties with your wording; or, if you prefer, I feel this needs to be qualified. [...] In case anyone else was also confused by this message: it appears to have gotten stuck in a mail queue somewhere and is nearly a month old. So if it looks like a replay of an earlier conversation, that's because it is. :) -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87d36z7jtp@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: xth wrap-up about statement on diversity, statement may be issued without general resolution (Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project)
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 09:47:04PM -0400, Filipus Klutiero wrote:
The message from Stefano Zacchiroli quoted below includes a wrap-up
(of the wrap-up (of the...)) about the statement on diversity in
contributors proposed by Francesca Ciceri.
Stefano asked to publish it in #669011, although the statement is
not approved.
I beg you pardon? It's been approved by me with that mail, after having
given time to comment on that to readers of this list. Also, please note
how -project was Cc:-ed on my request already (see
https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/04/msg00073.html) so it's
not clear to me why you felt there was a need to give this warning
kind of mail.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
Maître de conférences .. http://upsilon.cc/zack .. . . o
Debian Project Leader... @zack on identi.ca ...o o o
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »
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Re: xth wrap-up about statement on diversity, statement may be issued without general resolution (Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project)
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 09:25:21AM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 09:47:04PM -0400, Filipus Klutiero wrote: The message from Stefano Zacchiroli quoted below includes a wrap-up (of the wrap-up (of the...)) about the statement on diversity in contributors proposed by Francesca Ciceri. Stefano asked to publish it in #669011, although the statement is not approved. I beg you pardon? It's been approved by me with that mail, after having given time to comment on that to readers of this list. Also, please note how -project was Cc:-ed on my request already (see https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/04/msg00073.html) so it's not clear to me why you felt there was a need to give this warning kind of mail. Perhaps because under the constitution, position statements are a power that the developers exercise under GR, not a power that the DPL has? -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: xth wrap-up about statement on diversity, statement may be issued without general resolution (Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project)
Hi Stefano, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 09:47:04PM -0400, Filipus Klutiero wrote: The message from Stefano Zacchiroli quoted below includes a wrap-up (of the wrap-up (of the...)) about the statement on diversity in contributors proposed by Francesca Ciceri. Stefano asked to publish it in #669011, although the statement is not approved. I beg you pardon? It's been approved by me with that mail, after having given time to comment on that to readers of this list. approved in the sense of sanctioned. A few people did say they thought the statement should be issued. Also, please note how -project was Cc:-ed on my request already (see https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/04/msg00073.html) so it's not clear to me why you felt there was a need to give this warning kind of mail. Yes, the information was already given, the purpose of my mail was simply to change the subject, making it obvious to quick readers of debian-project that your mail wasn't simply a comment on a draft proposal. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f91a785.60...@gmail.com
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, Le 12/04/2012 12:34, David Prévot a écrit : If the issue is only for non native readers, an other way to address the concern is to help proofreading translations in every language we understand, in order to make sure the statement will be available for non English readers, with a quality that matches the one granted by this active thread. I hereby invite French readers to proofread the proposed French translation of this diversity statement. The last version is available in the publicity repository: http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/publicity/announcements/fr/drafts/diversity.wml?view=markup Please, follow up the discussion on debian-l10n-french@l.d.o, in French is preferred. Thanks in advance. (Other translations should be available in the next hours/days.) - %---%--- Diversité et équité === Le projet Debian invite et encourage tout le monde à participer. Qu'importe la façon dont vous vous identifiez, ou dont les autres vous perçoivent : nous vous accueillons. Nous accueillons les contributions de tout le monde, tant que les interactions avec la communauté sont constructives. Même si l'essentiel du projet est technique par nature, nous apprécions et encourageons de la même façon les contributions de la part des personnes dont le domaine de compétences est différent, et les accueillons au sein de notre communauté. - %---%--- Regards David -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJPjxDfAAoJELgqIXr9/gnyi8YP/074j3++CXKZIpecUG5DWESV gInECsV4IB2h2EtPyREEY7NmwIMN4NXoSRrPaKtI9hSsplCHcVHOEsC9nz4ulFpT m/JPkuAtPYpOifNZODFGSqqscVKhA36mWLFScr+FmJF//8CeV2zQ60pSnknDWPFD VdqJuXm6sR0K5R+jEA6ykQJjcpmjdw8gCCFZQpDW0DXXFncvi3nwqJXXMs+6x82G gVjxu2WAEcbqI5dgzQVa25YHZsSnPaGzKu0v+l1MtqJzldV7BgRG7PyVyM6Yxpwl ZeD/eiUmJRzPDtl8oiyHBo2lw1pmNJgpktA6lt8ByQZL2FMUOXZnPF3pv4jCdARG 8b1uTTxRWFJXnQvppbT+pKbgAM4+N8quDAltNQzYdHGEmWtuOHWXzHqiCZxhYz7d wU/EP/TDmjX0ajsH8rZ3AP2Ii61QclEoo7hVMj671oldQkljXsok86H0v9nuUVKZ v+e99cPBA25+0b+W/M0lHVZGR03+e702n4HIYGxvfripvccvXQ2AljXiWcqgZRtO OKG8xRSTkFNxeeZqnU5HUvFXJEc0VaBJcBGZQhh9Al9WgfoeclFAkOs/LRfwSwk+ gTrk0yqzFgBJbTbmx25oBkEzm1hFX66kDiJKJ3Zj+m3ktc7WgKvRDBlf97LW9vHv wSuz0VdwgCoAgsb6uvEj =7bpp -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f8f10df.8090...@debian.org
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
* Stefano Zacchiroli lea...@debian.org [2012-04-09 14:02:02 CEST]: On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote: So, I wrote a draft - mainly based on the one [4] created for Ubuntu by Matt Zimmerman with the help of Mary Gardiner, Valerie Aurora and Benjamin Mako Hill - and I'd like to propose it to the DPL to be official published. But I'd also like to have some inputs from you all, on it. Dear all, here is a wrap-up (of the wrap-up (of the...)) that Francesca has just shared with me based on the last feedback on list. The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community. While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas, and welcome them into our community. Shouldn't there be a too added after in other areas, my first thought was we don't value contributions in the technical area? when reading this. Maybe I'm too picky, and you can base it on me not being a native speaker - but then, most people that will read it might be non-native speakers. Thanks for a very good aproach and great statement. :) Rhonda -- Fühlst du dich mutlos, fass endlich Mut, los | Fühlst du dich hilflos, geh raus und hilf, los| Wir sind Helden Fühlst du dich machtlos, geh raus und mach, los | 23.55: Alles auf Anfang Fühlst du dich haltlos, such Halt und lass los| -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120412120832.ga22...@anguilla.debian.or.at
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:08:32 +0200, Gerfried Fuchs rho...@deb.at wrote: * Stefano Zacchiroli lea...@debian.org [2012-04-09 14:02:02 CEST]: On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote: So, I wrote a draft - mainly based on the one [4] created for Ubuntu by Matt Zimmerman with the help of Mary Gardiner, Valerie Aurora and Benjamin Mako Hill - and I'd like to propose it to the DPL to be official published. But I'd also like to have some inputs from you all, on it. Dear all, here is a wrap-up (of the wrap-up (of the...)) that Francesca has just shared with me based on the last feedback on list. The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community. While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas, and welcome them into our community. Shouldn't there be a too added after in other areas, my first thought was we don't value contributions in the technical area? when reading this. It strikes me as unnecessary, but as you say, maybe that's because I think it's being implied (as a native speaker), and non-natives will perceive it differently. If it is deemed that the clarification is needed, then adding 'too' is not the way to do it -- instead we could go for: adding 'also' after 'we': ... technical in nature, we also value and encourage contributions ... or perhaps adding 'as well' where you were suggesting 'too': ... with expertise in other areas as well, ... I think I prefer the first. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/ |-| HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/ |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND pgpEa1InQ5eyR.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Phil wrote: If it is deemed that the clarification is needed, then adding 'too' is not the way to do it -- instead we could go for: adding 'also' after 'we': ... technical in nature, we also value and encourage contributions ... or perhaps adding 'as well' where you were suggesting 'too': ... with expertise in other areas as well, ... I think I prefer the first. I agree with that preference (and with either being better than too). But any of these can be read more easily than the previous version as demoting non-technical contributions back to something second-class, if we only value them in addition to technical ones. If an extra word is really needed then perhaps it should be we equally value and encourage? -- Moray -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAHWF6ZMjg-6p0Z3O2Ogk23Aw2jW=1mzvdyhemk+wz0qakng...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Hi, Le 12/04/2012 12:22, Moray Allan a écrit : Phil wrote: Le 12/04/2012 08:08, Gerfried Fuchs a écrit : Maybe I'm too picky, and you can base it on me not being a native speaker - but then, most people that will read it might be non-native speakers. If it is deemed that the clarification is needed, then […] If an extra word is really needed then perhaps it should be we equally value and encourage? If the issue is only for non native readers, an other way to address the concern is to help proofreading translations in every language we understand, in order to make sure the statement will be available for non English readers, with a quality that matches the one granted by this active thread. I'd like to thank Francesca for proposing this statement and taking care of the various remarks, and everyone involved. Regards David signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
So, I wrote a draft - mainly based on the one [4] created for Ubuntu
by Matt Zimmerman with the help of Mary Gardiner, Valerie Aurora
and Benjamin Mako Hill - and I'd like to propose it to the DPL to be
official published.
But I'd also like to have some inputs from you all, on it.
Dear all,
here is a wrap-up (of the wrap-up (of the...)) that Francesca has just
shared with me based on the last feedback on list.
The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
interact constructively with our community.
While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value
and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas,
and welcome them into our community.
It seems to me that there is consensus in going ahead with such a
statement, modulo some minor disagreements on the form that can still be
fixed once published following the usual (bug reporting) procedure. I
hereby declare that, as DPL, I'm happy with it and I'm ready to ask the
WWW and Press teams to publish and advertise it as a project-wide
statement.
I'll see to it in a week from now, asking for confirmation from the
future DPL. As discussed in [1], if you feel strongly about the need of
a GR for publishing this (I don't), please start one and look for
seconds as usual. Otherwise, I propose that the statement is published
under simple DPL auspices.
Cheers.
[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/04/msg00011.html
--
Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
Maître de conférences .. http://upsilon.cc/zack .. . . o
Debian Project Leader... @zack on identi.ca ...o o o
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 14:02:02 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: here is a wrap-up (of the wrap-up (of the...)) that Francesca has just shared with me based on the last feedback on list. The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community. While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas, and welcome them into our community. Looks good to me. Thanks to Francesca and all others who've helped to further improve the text! It seems to me that there is consensus in going ahead with such a statement, modulo some minor disagreements on the form that can still be fixed once published following the usual (bug reporting) procedure. I hereby declare that, as DPL, I'm happy with it and I'm ready to ask the WWW and Press teams to publish and advertise it as a project-wide statement. Fine with me. Cheers, gregor -- .''`. Homepage: http://info.comodo.priv.at/ - OpenPGP key 0xBB3A68018649AA06 : :' : Debian GNU/Linux user, admin, and developer - http://www.debian.org/ `. `' Member of VIBE!AT SPI, fellow of the Free Software Foundation Europe `- NP: Leonard Cohen: First We Take Manhattan signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Stefano Zacchiroli lea...@debian.org writes: The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community. While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas, and welcome them into our community. It seems to me that there is consensus in going ahead with such a statement, modulo some minor disagreements on the form that can still be fixed once published following the usual (bug reporting) procedure. I hereby declare that, as DPL, I'm happy with it and I'm ready to ask the WWW and Press teams to publish and advertise it as a project-wide statement. Hooray! Nicely done, Francesca and everyone else involved in molding this statement. -- \ “… whoever claims any right that he is unwilling to accord to | `\ his fellow-men is dishonest and infamous.” —Robert G. | _o__) Ingersoll, _The Liberty of Man, Woman and Child_, 1877 | Ben Finney pgpxSsBVNoHxX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Samstag, 7. April 2012, Enrico Zini wrote: Moar nitpicking: s/define/perceive/g I perceive this as very useful nit-picking. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204081341.28972.hol...@layer-acht.org
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 10:32:21PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote: It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone Moar nitpicking: s/define/perceive/g That gives: It doesn't matter how you perceive yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. This is after feedback from a respected friend on a private IRC channel, who pointed out that the concept of definitions has unwelcome connotations. Ciao, Enrico trying to prove that the draft is perfect by constantly trying to suggest improvements: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfection#Paradoxes -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 12:23:21PM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote: On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 10:32:21PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote: It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone Moar nitpicking: s/define/perceive/g That gives: It doesn't matter how you perceive yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. This is after feedback from a respected friend on a private IRC channel, who pointed out that the concept of definitions has unwelcome connotations. The first 'define' might want to be 'identify' and the second 'perceive' for It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. Or possibly: It doesn't matter how you choose to identify or how others perceive you: we welcome you. Cheers, Luca -- Luca Filipozzi signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
I am starting to enjoy this. Original-Nachricht Datum: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 11:03:07 + Von: Luca Filipozzi lfili...@debian.org An: debian-project@lists.debian.org Betreff: Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 12:23:21PM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote: On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 10:32:21PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote: It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone Moar nitpicking: s/define/perceive/g That gives: It doesn't matter how you perceive yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. This is after feedback from a respected friend on a private IRC channel, who pointed out that the concept of definitions has unwelcome connotations. The first 'define' might want to be 'identify' and the second 'perceive' for It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. Or possibly: It doesn't matter how you choose to identify or how others perceive you: we welcome you. And what about a bit of a simplification: It does not matter who you or who others think you are: we welcome you. Best, Steffen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120407165747.131...@gmx.net
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 06:57:47PM +0200, Steffen M?ller wrote: I am starting to enjoy this. On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 11:03:07PM +, Luca Filipozzi wrote: On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 12:23:21PM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote: On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 10:32:21PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote: It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone Moar nitpicking: s/define/perceive/g That gives: It doesn't matter how you perceive yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. This is after feedback from a respected friend on a private IRC channel, who pointed out that the concept of definitions has unwelcome connotations. The first 'define' might want to be 'identify' and the second 'perceive' for It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. Or possibly: It doesn't matter how you choose to identify or how others perceive you: we welcome you. And what about a bit of a simplification: It does not matter who you or who others think you are: we welcome you. i wanted to put 'identify' into discussion but please don't interpret this reply as my being insistent on the point... 'define yourself' passed my initial filter! if i had to choose: - identify/perceive - perceive/perceive - think/think - define/define -- Luca Filipozzi signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Fri, 06 Apr 2012, Enrico Zini wrote: I love how this is increasing in awesomeness as it is decreasing in size. Indeed. I feel like suggesting two minor patches, labor limae if anything: s/contributions to Debian/contributions/ s/expertise in other areas/expertise in other areas,/ s/welcome such contributors in our community/welcome them in our community/ which would give: While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas, and welcome them in our community. Yes, it looks better with those small fixes. Thank you Francesca! Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer Pre-order a copy of the Debian Administrator's Handbook and help liberate it: http://debian-handbook.info/liberation/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120406060455.ga30...@rivendell.home.ouaza.com
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Hi, On Freitag, 6. April 2012, Raphael Hertzog wrote: I love how this is increasing in awesomeness as it is decreasing in size. Indeed. +1 Yes, it looks better with those small fixes. +1 Thank you Francesca! +1 cheers, h03ger ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204060845.45101.hol...@layer-acht.org
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 09:11:11AM +1000, Ben Finney wrote: Francesca Ciceri madame...@debian.org writes: -88- The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community. While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions to Debian from those with expertise in other areas and welcome such contributors in our community. 8---8 Why the change from “contributions to the Project”? Debian is an operating system, but I think our diversity statement should welcome contributions to the Debian Project. Sure. It was to avoid the repetition of project: but maybe we can simply s/contributions to Debian/contributions/ (as suggested by Enrico)? It's looking very good now. :) Thank you! Cheers, Francesca -- Nostra patria è il mondo intero e nostra legge è la libertà ed un pensiero ribelle in cor ci sta. P.Gori signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Fri, 6 Apr 2012 00:03:50 +0200, Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org wrote: On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 10:32:21PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote: The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community. While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions to Debian from those with expertise in other areas and welcome such contributors in our community. I love how this is increasing in awesomeness as it is decreasing in size. Definitely. I feel like suggesting two minor patches, labor limae if anything: s/contributions to Debian/contributions/ s/expertise in other areas/expertise in other areas,/ s/welcome such contributors in our community/welcome them in our community/ which would give: While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas, and welcome them in our community. Tiny nitpick: welcome ... in seems wrong to my native ear, but I'm not sure why. I would go for: welcome ... to Also, is the them supposed to be the contributions or the people making them? Probably both, but I think that unanswered question may be why I'm not able to come up with a better version of this, as well as the reason it doesn't seem quite right to me at present. If the answer to that is meant to be the people, then that could be made plain with: welcome ... into Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/ |-| HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/ |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND pgpvIRNgXYJ3q.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Francesca Ciceri madame...@debian.org writes: On Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 09:11:11AM +1000, Ben Finney wrote: Why the change from “contributions to the Project”? Debian is an operating system, but I think our diversity statement should welcome contributions to the Debian Project. Sure. It was to avoid the repetition of project: but maybe we can simply s/contributions to Debian/contributions/ (as suggested by Enrico)? Yes, that works. -- \ “The best mind-altering drug is truth.” —Jane Wagner, via Lily | `\Tomlin | _o__) | Ben Finney pgpyLv5sDT2Ov.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Yay! Super-very-final draft below :) I applied patches proposed by Stefano, Steffen, Luca and Ben (thanks!). Cheers, Francesca -88- The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community. While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions to Debian from those with expertise in other areas and welcome such contributors in our community. 8---8 -- Nostra patria è il mondo intero e nostra legge è la libertà ed un pensiero ribelle in cor ci sta. P.Gori signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 10:32:21PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote: The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community. While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions to Debian from those with expertise in other areas and welcome such contributors in our community. I love how this is increasing in awesomeness as it is decreasing in size. I feel like suggesting two minor patches, labor limae if anything: s/contributions to Debian/contributions/ s/expertise in other areas/expertise in other areas,/ s/welcome such contributors in our community/welcome them in our community/ which would give: While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas, and welcome them in our community. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Francesca Ciceri madame...@debian.org writes: -88- The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community. While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions to Debian from those with expertise in other areas and welcome such contributors in our community. 8---8 Why the change from “contributions to the Project”? Debian is an operating system, but I think our diversity statement should welcome contributions to the Debian Project. It's looking very good now. -- \ “I got a postcard from my best friend, it was a satellite | `\ picture of the entire Earth. On the back he wrote, ‘Wish you | _o__) were here’.” —Steven Wright | Ben Finney pgpBgoh6n5q9k.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On 12-04-03 at 02:11pm, Francesca Ciceri wrote: The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of expertise, as long as they can be constructive members of our community. While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part of our community. One suggestion: Squeeze in an also to clarify that non-technical contributions are not the only ones valued: While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the Project also from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part of our community. Regards, - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Francesca Ciceri madame...@debian.org writes: --- 8 --- 8 The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of expertise, as long as they can be constructive members of our community. While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part of our community. - 8 --- 8 --- Works for me, with or without the differences mentioned in other replies. Thank you again, Francesca, for your work on this. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/871uo47osl@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Original-Nachricht Datum: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 09:39:22 -0700 Von: Russ Allbery r...@debian.org An: debian-project@lists.debian.org Betreff: Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project Francesca Ciceri madame...@debian.org writes: --- 8 --- 8 The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of expertise, as long as they can be constructive members of our community. While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part of our community. - 8 --- 8 --- Works for me, with or without the differences mentioned in other replies. Yip, even though I would be tempted to leave out within their areas of expertise. Something is constructive or not. Even a question to someone writing a documentation can be constructive. Thank you again, Francesca, for your work on this. Indeed. This is a tantalizing improvement over the typical formulation of being an equal opportunity organisation. Steffen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120403170557.49...@gmx.net
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Original-Nachricht Datum: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 17:23:57 + Von: Luca Filipozzi lfili...@debian.org An: debian-project@lists.debian.org Betreff: Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 07:05:57PM +0200, Steffen M?ller wrote: Francesca Ciceri madame...@debian.org writes: -- The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of expertise, as long as they can be constructive members of our community. While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part of our community. -- Works for me, with or without the differences mentioned in other replies. Yip, even though I would be tempted to leave out within their areas of expertise. Something is constructive or not. Even a question to someone writing a documentation can be constructive. so that would be something like constructive contributions to the Project in non-technical areas micro suggestion: s/will value/values/ the rest of the statment is in present tense; let's not use future tense for how much we will value and encourage participation; will is to much like try; do or do not :) Here a summary of what I read so far and some extra changes I liked. The first two sentences of Francesca are my favorite and the most important, I think. I am not sure how much of the rest is needed, anyway: The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone s/within their areas of expertise,// as long as they s/can/interact/ constructive s/ members of/ly with/ our community. While much of the work s/of the Project/for our project/ is technical in nature, we s/will // (Luca) value and encourage contributions to s/the Project/Debian/ from those with expertise in s/non-technical/other/ (Stefano) areas and welcome such contributors s/as part of/in/ our community. Cheers, Steffen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120403213033.49...@gmx.net
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Thank you for persisting with this job, Francesca. Francesca Ciceri madame...@debian.org writes: The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of expertise, as long as they can be constructive members of our community. While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part of our community. Very good. Minor suggestions: s/as long as they can be constructive members/as long as they are constructive members/ s/we will value/we also value/ s/with expertise in non-technical areas/with expertise in any area/ Maybe break it into two paragraphs, before “While much …”. It's much tighter and clearer now. I'm looking forward to the resulting statement. -- \ “To succeed in the world it is not enough to be stupid, you | `\must also be well-mannered.” —Voltaire | _o__) | Ben Finney pgpTuWqbJSC25.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Mon, 2 Apr 2012 13:09:40 +0900, Charles Plessy ple...@debian.org wrote: ... I think that this is important that, when considering joining Debian, contributors can be reassured that they will not be put a sticker on their head by others. This dicussion tends to the contrary. My point exactly. If we had fields for race, or caste, or social class in our LDAP it would say something very worrying about our project IMO. If people want to think of themselves in such terms, I suppose that's fair enough, as long as they don't impose their categorisations on others. Declaring such categorisations about oneself can be problematic though, since they tend to be divisive. If I were to say that I consider myself a particular class (being from the UK, there is a certain cultural attachment to the concept of class) then I would be implicitly also declaring my opinion that class has a useful objective existence, and that I thought it was important enough to mention, and that I probably use it to enable me to look down on people that I define as being from other classes. If I discovered a society, or association that declared that they didn't discriminate on grounds of social class, I'd assume that it was founded by somewhat enlightened aristocrats who were willing to admit their servants to the association ... as long as they behaved themselves, and kept their boots properly polished, and were not too uppity. Which probably tells you more about my class prejudices than anything else ;-) Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/ |-| HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/ |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND pgpP2uQuxCLzv.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
a recent discussion [1] on Debian Women mailing list made me realize that
the Debian Project, the *Universal* Operating System, doesn't have a
diversity statement [2].
Yet. :)
Heya, sorry for the delay, but I've followed with interest this
discussion. Many thanks to Francesca and the other Debian Women ML
participants for this proposal.
I'm very much in favor of having a diversity statement for the Debian
Project.
I concur with most of the very good reasons which have been mentioned in
this thread for having one, so I'll try hard not to inflict you
additional ones (OK, just a few :-P). Also, I see no disadvantages in
having one: it is no additional regulation, procedure, of anything
such. It's just a, err, statement that --- within the realm of the
general Debian goals --- we welcome diversity. I don't even think we
need to bring the universal OS motto in the loop to justify diversity:
it just happens that the more diverse a community is, the more rich it
gets. A statement in that direction is a way to cherish and encourage
that richness.
Lurking this thread, I've the impression we could find consensus on such
a statement, as long as we keep it simple. The long list of features
we do not discriminate upon, in particular, seems to be contentious.
TBH, I don't find it particularly inspiring either, while the rest of
the text is. I also notice that other existing diversity statements in
FOSS have avoided the long list, still managing to be inspiring and
straight to the point. Maybe we could try without such a list?
Just another comment on the way to decide upon the statement: GR or
not. For those who care about formalities: I think the DPL is entitled
to emit such a statement under Constitution §5.1.4 (Make any decision
for whom noone else has responsibility). If I'll happen to be DPL when
this discussion ends, and if there will appear to be consensus on the
idea of having a diversity statement, I'll be happy to pick the least
contentious draft and help to finalize it.
More generally, I think there are a few arguments against using a GR to
publish such a statement:
- communication might have been a good reasons for GR a while ago; these
days we're quite active and good at communicating Debian Project news
to the world. We really don't need a GR just for that, I believe a
press release would be as authoritative, at least for the outer world
- it opens all sort of bureaucratic-fetish questions like what if we
want to change the statement?, and I don't think we want to micro
manage that and similar possibilities in the GR text
- if we roughly agree on going ahead with the statement on this list:
why bother? We've better things to do with our collective time than
voting, at least when it is avoidable
All in all, I think deciding on how to publish this is pretty easy.
Let's first take into account the remaining criticism and update the
text; which has to be done anyhow if we want to publish. The then-DPL
could then state when he/she is ready to publish, giving some time to
react. Those who strongly prefer a GR can then simply go ahead and
propose one, looking for seconds as usual. If the GR process starts, the
DPL will surely wait for its outcome; otherwise the statement can be
published under DPL auspices.
Hope this helps,
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
Maître de conférences .. http://upsilon.cc/zack .. . . o
Debian Project Leader... @zack on identi.ca ...o o o
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Stefano Zacchiroli lea...@debian.org writes: The long list of features we do not discriminate upon, in particular, seems to be contentious. TBH, I don't find it particularly inspiring either, while the rest of the text is. Part of the cause of that problem, it seems to me, is that today's common understanding of “discriminate” conflates it with “discriminate on a prejudicial basis”. By making that conflation, we lose the concept of discrimination *without* prejudice URL:https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/discrimination, which is the act of perceiving and noting differences which may matter to a decision. This is an essential aspect of making fair decisions: about people, about their past actions, about their present convictions informing their future actions. A diversity statement that rules out this kind of fair discrimination would be harmful to a project, by needlessly hobbling the ability to make necessary decisions fairly. So, while I don't know to what extent that issue is a conscious part of the decisions leading to such diversity statements, it can partly explain why they commonly include an extensive list of descriptors the drafters think are prejudicial as a basis for discrimination. I also notice that other existing diversity statements in FOSS have avoided the long list, still managing to be inspiring and straight to the point. Maybe we could try without such a list? There are some free-software projects with a diversity statement including such a list, but being clear and to the point about what that list means. The diversity statement of the Python Software Foundation URL:http://www.python.org/community/diversity/ has this relevant text: Although we have phrased the formal diversity statement generically to make it all-inclusive, we recognize that there are specific attributes that are used to discriminate against people. In alphabetical order, some of these attributes include (but are not limited to): age, culture, ethnicity, gender identity or expression, national origin, physical or mental difference, politics, race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, and subculture. We welcome people regardless of the values of these or other attributes. That avoids the problem I objected to earlier: it makes clear that these are intended to describe attributes of people, specifically as attributes commonly used to (prejudicially) discriminate. That leaves open – correctly, in my view – the entirely fair discrimination on the basis of people's actions, and on the basis of the content of people's expressed opinions (religious convictions, political positions, etc.) when relevant to some decision. It also makes clear that the list is not intended to be exhaustive. -- \“He who laughs last, thinks slowest.” —anonymous | `\ | _o__) | Ben Finney pgpSWaT6584XX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:07:33 -0400, Kevin Mark kevin.m...@verizon.net wrote: If we say we accept people of all races or that we dont discriminate based on race, then we are not the ones who are going to discriminate, and this is a good thing and is welcoming. Well, except for the fact that by saying that one is reinforcing the notion that race means something useful, which it really doesn't. For instance, what race would Sandra Laing be, daugher of gernerations of white Afrikaners, with the misfortune to have been born with black skin under apartheid: http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2003/mar/17/features11.g2 The concept of race only seems to be useful to racists, and perhaps bean-counters who want to demonstrate their organisation's lack of racism by the racial diversity that they can get people to admit to on forms. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/ |-| HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/ |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND pgpWORFEF36N9.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Hello, Original-Nachricht Datum: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 13:43:46 -0400 Von: Kevin Mark kevin.m...@verizon.net An: Philip Hands p...@hands.com CC: Kevin Mark kevin.m...@verizon.net, debian-project@lists.debian.org Betreff: Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 11:59:01AM +0100, Philip Hands wrote: On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:07:33 -0400, Kevin Mark kevin.m...@verizon.net wrote: If we say we accept people of all races or that we dont discriminate based on race, then we are not the ones who are going to discriminate, and this is a good thing and is welcoming. Well, except for the fact that by saying that one is reinforcing the notion that race means something useful, which it really doesn't. In an ideal world, none of this would matter. Alas, we do not live in that place. Not in RL, but from the Debian packaging perspective, I think we are at least very very close to such idealism and the only race conditions we have are very technical and are reported as bugs already. I am with Philip and suggest to postpone discussions about racial discrimination until we have an issue within Debian or with those redistributing our packages. If you refer to an unequal distribution of our distribution in the world, to me the answer is about helping our marketing, or help some team building somewhere as a seed/bridge into a remote community. Steffen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120401191703.203...@gmx.net
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 09:17:03PM +0200, Steffen Möller wrote: Hello, Original-Nachricht Datum: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 13:43:46 -0400 Von: Kevin Mark kevin.m...@verizon.net An: Philip Hands p...@hands.com CC: Kevin Mark kevin.m...@verizon.net, debian-project@lists.debian.org Betreff: Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 11:59:01AM +0100, Philip Hands wrote: On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:07:33 -0400, Kevin Mark kevin.m...@verizon.net wrote: If we say we accept people of all races or that we dont discriminate based on race, then we are not the ones who are going to discriminate, and this is a good thing and is welcoming. Well, except for the fact that by saying that one is reinforcing the notion that race means something useful, which it really doesn't. In an ideal world, none of this would matter. Alas, we do not live in that place. Not in RL, but from the Debian packaging perspective, I think we are at least very very close to such idealism and the only race conditions we have are very technical and are reported as bugs already. race conditions are more of an issue for upstart or systemd or similar. I am with Philip and suggest to postpone discussions about racial discrimination The discussion at hand is not about determining who can contribute to debian based upon aspects of identity. It is about creating an atmostphere where people look at the signals and signs that debian transmits and they get an impression that Debian will welcome them. What does this[0] do with respect to who codes on Android? What does it signal when at Debconf (and other conferences) they include t-shirts that fit women? What does it say when a woman goes to a conference and they dont have such t-shirts? It signals who they expect to join them and who should not. until we have an issue within Debian If you look at the statistical makeup of the humans that contribute and examine the components of identity that they consider themselves, you'll find lots of people who would be male, hetronormative, american/european, caucasian humans. If you think that this group is who you wish to be in the majority, then there is no issue and no action is required. or with those redistributing our packages. If you refer to an unequal distribution of our distribution in the world, to me the answer is about helping our marketing, or help some team building somewhere as a seed/bridge into a remote community. The location of where digital bits are stored is of no concern for the purpose of this statement. [0] http://www.googlestore.com/Wearables/Android+Pride+T-Shirt+-+Black.axd -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux ==.| http://kevix.myopenid.com..| | : :' : The Universal OS| mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/.| | `. `' http://www.debian.org/.| http://counter.li.org [#238656]| |___`-Unless I ask to be CCd,.assume I am subscribed._| QOTD: I love your outfit, does it come in your size? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120402031137.GA10983@horacrux
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Le Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 11:11:37PM -0400, Kevin Mark a écrit : If you look at the statistical makeup of the humans that contribute and examine the components of identity that they consider themselves, you'll find lots of people who would be male, hetronormative, american/european, caucasian humans. If you think that this group is who you wish to be in the majority, then there is no issue and no action is required. Hi Kevin and everybody, I would like to underline again that it is a fundamental flaw to express wishes for diversity in a way that itself is culturally biased. I do not recognise myself as caucasian. Genetics and paleontology make very clear that million of years ago, all of our common ancestors were apes in Africa. In science and medecine, the use of caucasian is vastly deprecated. See for instance Ethnic Groups and Geographic Origins in the following URL. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/pubs/techbull/nd03/nd03_med_data_changes.html When people tell me things like you caucasians, I feel offended, even if I know that they are actually trying to be kind to avoid more culturally or emotionally charged words. Please use causasian at the first person as you whish, since the whole point of this discussion is to tell everybody that they are welcome in Debian regardless of the group they feel they belong, but please do not categorize others; it is finger-pointing. I think that this is important that, when considering joining Debian, contributors can be reassured that they will not be put a sticker on their head by others. This dicussion tends to the contrary. Cheers, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120402040940.ga8...@falafel.plessy.net
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 05:53:48PM +0100, Mark Brown wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 04:40:58PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: On 12-03-27 at 03:45pm, Francesca Ciceri wrote: Yes, I agree on accuracy. But please, note that neurotype - even if it hasn't scientific recognition as concept - is the way some people define themselves. And we must respect it. I favor what others have suggested: Completely avoid listing specific kinds of diversities to avoid misinterpretation that we _favor_ being non-diversive in certain ways. I don't mind listing some - but I fear the bikeshedding of which that should then be. You have neurotype as a favorite. I can imagine many having various favorites ;-) I agree with Jonas here I'd also add that an enormous list of topics of discrimination doesn't make for inspiring prose either, making the whole thing seem like a bureaucratic exercise. These are not an enormous list of topics of discrimination'. Quite the opposite. If you pick an old one like race, which has been and still is a means that some people use as a basis for discrimination, the person of a certain race is not the one discriminiating, its the people who are not accepting of this aspect of diversity who are. If we say we accept people of all races or that we dont discriminate based on race, then we are not the ones who are going to discriminate, and this is a good thing and is welcoming. -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux ==.| http://kevix.myopenid.com..| | : :' : The Universal OS| mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/.| | `. `' http://www.debian.org/.| http://counter.li.org [#238656]| |___`-Unless I ask to be CCd,.assume I am subscribed._| In a five year period we can get one superb programming language. Only we can't control when the five year period will begin. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120331230733.GA14718@horacrux
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On 23/03/12 14:56, Ian Jackson wrote: What does honouring diversity actually mean ? Precisely the same question, for what I suspect are pretty similar reasons, has just come up in the context of a proposal that the Mozilla project adopt the Ubuntu CoC. http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.governance/msg/04839e4e065308ad Gerv -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f75cd2c.2050...@gerv.net
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:41:15 +0100, Ben Hutchings b...@decadent.org.uk wrote: On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 14:10 +1100, Ben Finney wrote: Francesca Ciceri madame...@debian.org writes: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 08:42:28AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote: We should not commit to respecting opinions, but instead commit to respecting all people. How do you suggest to express it in the statement? That depends on the context of the statement; I'm in favour of making it rather minimal as some others in this thread have described. For distinguishing the respect for opinion versus respect for the people who hold them, perhaps this: We value healthy discussion and debate of all opinions, no matter who holds them. Ideas are always a valid target of criticism, and we welcome anyone who wants to respectfully join the discussion. I still think we need to specify that we don't discriminate on grounds of preferred bikeshed colour. We seem to be drifting into dangerous territory here. Should we not make explicit the fact that we are willing to discuss the colour of all sheds, even those used for the storage of pots? Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/ |-| HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/ |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND pgpr7q0IQm36B.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Jose Luis Rivas wrote: If is proposed to GR as it is written now, I will most probably vote against it too. I thought the diversity statement was to let everybody know they were welcome to work in the project, not that they have to think in certain way nor we will have yet another document telling us how to behave (I have enough of that with my country laws). I fail to see where the diversity statement dictates your behaviour or your thoughts. It just says we welcome everybody pointing out some of the differences that by themselves can't be ground to be excluded from this welcoming attitude. Yet at the same time we reaffirm that people who join should be committed to be constructive towards our common project of building the best free OS. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer Pre-order a copy of the Debian Administrator's Handbook and help liberate it: http://debian-handbook.info/liberation/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120328063124.gc16...@rivendell.home.ouaza.com
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 04:40:58PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: On 12-03-27 at 03:45pm, Francesca Ciceri wrote: Yes, I agree on accuracy. But please, note that neurotype - even if it hasn't scientific recognition as concept - is the way some people define themselves. And we must respect it. I favor what others have suggested: Completely avoid listing specific kinds of diversities to avoid misinterpretation that we _favor_ being non-diversive in certain ways. I don't mind listing some - but I fear the bikeshedding of which that should then be. You have neurotype as a favorite. I can imagine many having various favorites ;-) I agree with Jonas here I'd also add that an enormous list of topics of discrimination doesn't make for inspiring prose either, making the whole thing seem like a bureaucratic exercise. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120328165348.gd23...@sirena.org.uk
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes: The first step in being diverse is being *aware*. You cannot be aware when you're blind. And, just to point out how hard this is, as well as to further illustrate the general point that any post pointing out a spelling error contains at least one spelling error, this is a horrible metaphor. My desire to make rhetorical plays off of the phrase gender-blind don't justify using disability as a metaphor for bad things. And given that I know blind people who are most certainly aware, I should know better. I apologize. (And thank you to the private email that very gently pointed this out.) -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87k424bal5@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Francesca Ciceri madame...@debian.org writes: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 08:42:28AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote: We should not commit to respecting opinions, but instead commit to respecting all people. How do you suggest to express it in the statement? That depends on the context of the statement; I'm in favour of making it rather minimal as some others in this thread have described. For distinguishing the respect for opinion versus respect for the people who hold them, perhaps this: We value healthy discussion and debate of all opinions, no matter who holds them. Ideas are always a valid target of criticism, and we welcome anyone who wants to respectfully join the discussion. -- \ “To have the choice between proprietary software packages, is | `\ being able to choose your master. Freedom means not having a | _o__)master.” —Richard M. Stallman, 2007-05-16 | Ben Finney pgp93pBZrtBRE.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Ben Finney ben+deb...@benfinney.id.au writes: For distinguishing the respect for opinion versus respect for the people who hold them, perhaps this: We value healthy discussion and debate of all opinions, no matter who holds them. Ideas are always a valid target of criticism, and we welcome anyone who wants to respectfully join the discussion. I have to admit that doesn't particularly fill me with joy. I think one of the things that makes Debian off-putting and unwelcoming is that we're a little *too* obsessed with criticizing everyone's ideas, and what some people see as healthy discussion other people see as hurtful flamewars over bike shed colors. I'd kind of like to avoid saying something that could be interpreted as yes, please, argue with us! I know what you mean, and I agree with it, but I think it also has some failure modes that we've suffered from in the past. Hm. I guess I'd tend to instead say something about disagreeing respectfully and constructive debate rather than using the word criticism (which I realize has a dictionary definition much along the lines of constructive debate, when applied to, say, literary criticism, but that's not the connotation most people will take from it). -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87sjgsum90@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes: I have to admit that doesn't particularly fill me with joy [for various specific reasons]. […] I know what you mean, and I agree with it, but I think it also has some failure modes that we've suffered from in the past. Yes, I accept those criticisms of my statements :-) and I agree better wording is needed. My main point in this thread has been to distinguish automatic respect for people from automatic respect for the opinions they hold (yes to the former, no to the latter). I'm glad to see that point is relatively uncontroversial; I'll consider this addressed so long as that is clear in whatever diversity statement emerges. -- \“I got food poisoning today. I don't know when I'll use it.” | `\—Steven Wright | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/878vikf594@benfinney.id.au
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 14:10 +1100, Ben Finney wrote: Francesca Ciceri madame...@debian.org writes: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 08:42:28AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote: We should not commit to respecting opinions, but instead commit to respecting all people. How do you suggest to express it in the statement? That depends on the context of the statement; I'm in favour of making it rather minimal as some others in this thread have described. For distinguishing the respect for opinion versus respect for the people who hold them, perhaps this: We value healthy discussion and debate of all opinions, no matter who holds them. Ideas are always a valid target of criticism, and we welcome anyone who wants to respectfully join the discussion. I still think we need to specify that we don't discriminate on grounds of preferred bikeshed colour. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings Horngren's Observation: Among economists, the real world is often a special case. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Gunnar Wolf gw...@gwolf.org [...] if debian-women as re-formed today, it would probably be called debian-inclusiveness or something like that. It just does not stop at welcoming women and making Debian a gender-agnostic place. So rename it? And, guys and girls in d-women, you are for me one of the most inspiring, hard-working and most admirable parts of the project. Yes, they seem to be doing mostly good work and are more inclusive than the name suggests, but I just can't bring myself to support groups with such a basically exclusive name that misleads people. Anyway, it's disappointing that only this point attracted any attention and the more urgent points either side (who will enforce it? what happens if the GR fails?) seem to have been ignored. Hope that explains, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1scuse-0001l6...@petrol.towers.org.uk
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
[Scott Kitterman, 2012-03-27] We can always be accepting of people of any opinion. Trying to decide if someone is having 'correct' thoughts to be in Debian is wrong. The focus should be on what people do (and communication is one aspect of doing). +1 FWIW: I will vote against the statement in the GR most probably, not because I am against $foo, but because I think Debian Social Contract and ML Code of conduct is enough¹ and I hate over regulations. [¹] if not, please propose patches over there -- Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer www.ozarowski.pl www.griffith.cc www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: 1D2F A898 58DA AF62 1786 2DF7 AEF6 F1A2 A745 7645 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120327142344.ge31...@piotro.eu
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On 12-03-27 at 03:45pm, Francesca Ciceri wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 09:15:30AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: More of a detail, but for the neurotypes, I think that it is important to leave this out. On debian-devel, we have to be accurate when we discuss about things (like init systems). Why on debian-project wouldn't it be the same ? I could not find a reference defintion of neurotype on the Internet. Yes, I agree on accuracy. But please, note that neurotype - even if it hasn't scientific recognition as concept - is the way some people define themselves. And we must respect it. I disagree with your logic here, Francesca: We do *not* need to list a certain kind of diversity just because someone identifies with it. Some - like Charles above - suggest to only list scientific kinds of diversity. I favor what others have suggested: Completely avoid listing specific kinds of diversities to avoid misinterpretation that we _favor_ being non-diversive in certain ways. I don't mind listing some - but I fear the bikeshedding of which that should then be. You have neurotype as a favorite. I can imagine many having various favorites ;-) Or do you mean to say that neurotype is a diversity kind which is somehow superior to others, so makes sense to include even if avoiding other kinds? Regards, - Jonas Who is excited about this process and now Francesca drives it! -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
MJ Ray m...@phonecoop.coop writes: Anyway, it's disappointing that only this point attracted any attention and the more urgent points either side (who will enforce it? You don't enforce a diversity statement. That's not the point. It's an aspirational statement of ideals, not a policy. If it were enforced, it would be a Code of Conduct, which is a different thing. If we pass a diversity statement that we then obviously fail to live up to, it makes the whole project look bad, so there's a sort of moral enforcement there, but it's not the sort of individual enforcement that requires some enforcing body. what happens if the GR fails?) Then we don't have a diversity statement. While personally I would be disappointed, since I think diversity statements serve a useful purpose, I don't think this would be particularly catastrophic. Most of the people who have expressed reservations about the statement are doing so on the grounds that they feel this is already covered by existing project statements and that making an additional statement is tricky to do in a way that doesn't make some group uncomfortable and is not necessary. While I personally don't agree with that, I think that's a reasonable position and there's nothing inherently wrong with it. If the concern is that failing to pass a diversity statement would somehow send a message that we don't care about diversity, I think that's something that can be easily addressed by wording the negative option to say something akin to what I summarized above. Also, one other general point: having followed these sorts of discussions lightly elsewhere, it seems to be fairly common for folks who are in the majority (or, probably better stated, identify primarily with majorities, as there are a lot of axes and we're probably all in one minority or another) to not really see the point of a diversity statement. The organization already feels plenty diverse to them and the statement doesn't really mean anything to them. Personally, I want to try to evaluate things like this on the basis of how they would feel to people who *aren't* in as many majorities, since I think that's a primary (although not the only) target audience. Or, put another way, as a native-English-speaking neurotypical white guy who writes code, I know Debian welcomes *me*, and I don't need any statement to confirm that. But that's not really the point; if a diversity statement would make other people, particularly people who are underrepresented, feel more welcome, then it's worth doing regardless of whether it makes *me* feel anything new, unless it actually objectively hurts something. (And I think it's hard to see how it would really hurt anything, although definitely hashing out the wording is worthwhile.) Put even more succinctly, warm welcomes are about people who aren't yet part of our community, not about people who are already here. :) And part (although not all) of the point of a diversity statement is to be a warm welcome. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87r4weszmr@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On 03/27/2012 09:53 AM, Piotr Ożarowski wrote: [Scott Kitterman, 2012-03-27] We can always be accepting of people of any opinion. Trying to decide if someone is having 'correct' thoughts to be in Debian is wrong. The focus should be on what people do (and communication is one aspect of doing). +1 FWIW: I will vote against the statement in the GR most probably, not because I am against $foo, but because I think Debian Social Contract and ML Code of conduct is enough¹ and I hate over regulations. [¹] if not, please propose patches over there If is proposed to GR as it is written now, I will most probably vote against it too. I thought the diversity statement was to let everybody know they were welcome to work in the project, not that they have to think in certain way nor we will have yet another document telling us how to behave (I have enough of that with my country laws). Regards. -- Jose Luis Rivas - GPG: 0x7C4DF50D / 0xCACAB118 The Debian Project Developer -- http://ghostbar.ath.cx Barquisimeto, Venezuela signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Francesca Ciceri madame...@debian.org a recent discussion [1] on Debian Women mailing list made me realize that the Debian Project, the *Universal* Operating System, doesn't have a diversity statement [2]. I have three worries: 1. what's the point? What will actually change as a result of this statement? When someone next starts smearing a fellow contributor because they objected to a majority-supported action on religion/belief grounds (for some religions do directly contradict each other), or offers only obnoxious ways for people to opt-out of such actions, how will this statement help? Who do you think would enforce it and are they willing to do so, or is the DPL willing to appoint more volunteers who are willing to do so? 2. the continuing existance of the Debian Women mailing list illustrates one way the whole-project level still does not honour diversity and creates special spaces for some groups but not others. 3. what if the developers by way of General Resolution reject it? Regards, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1scb5t-0005v7...@petrol.towers.org.uk
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Hi, first of all let me say a *big thank you* for who took a moment (or more) to think about this proposal, criticizing the form of it, reviewing it, sending patches and fixes, asking for clarifications or providing them. And not only in this thread but also in IRC and via private mails. Even if bikeshedding is sometimes really annoying, this is the right way to reach a consensus on a such important document and transform it from a copy-pasted template to *our* diversity statement. :) Trying to summarize, these are IMHO the most important points emerged: * (1)long list vs (2)one-line statement ** changes proposed for (1): - s/race// (Lunar^) - s/religions/religious belief or disbelief/ (dkg) - technical ability vs skillset and field of expertise (Ian, Russ, Enrico) - neurotype is not a medical/scientific accepted concept, so it'd better to not put it beside genotype or fenotype which are. (Charles) - +sex (Charles) Tbh, I prefer (1), I find it more insipiring and moving. And Kevin is illuminating when he says: On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:40:40 Kevin Mark wrote: So a statement should explicitly list a good mix of what we are not getting, and by 'good mix' I dont mean exhaustive. Because if you have a half-way decent one, it will lend itself to the idea that you are just darn happy to include other less-well-included folks. A not exhaustive list means exactly that: here's a list of people who usually feel/are - historically - discriminated, there could be other way of discriminating on grounds of other criteria, and we will not accept them, as well as we don't accept the most-common-kinds-of-discrimination explicitly listed. The most-common-kinds-of-discrimination (i.e. the ones put on the list) are just examples. * isn't better a GR to give this statement more force/legitimation? I'd prefer one, yes. But it's also true that in the next months people will work hard for the upcoming freeze and it seems a waste of time to ask them to vote when we can reach a consensus via mailing list. If we can't reach a consensus here, I will propose a GR about it. So, attached the new text. It's still the list version, including fixes proposed. I've also added the paragraph proposed by Russ because - even if he said otherwise - it seems perfect to me. But if the choice will be between a one-line statement or no statement, I'll choose the first. :) Cheers, Francesca -- Nostra patria è il mondo intero e nostra legge è la libertà ed un pensiero ribelle in cor ci sta. P.Gori The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. We are committed to being a community that everyone feels good about joining. Although we may not be able to satisfy everyone, we will always work to treat everyone well. Whenever any participant has made a mistake, we expect them to take responsibility for it. If someone has been harmed or offended, it is our responsibility to listen carefully and respectfully, and do our best to right the wrong. We also expect people to be constructive members of the community. Although this list cannot be exhaustive, we explicitly honour diversity in age, culture, ethnicity, genotype, gender identity or expression, language, national origin, phenotype, political beliefs, sex, profession, neurotype, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, subculture, skillset and field of expertise. We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of particular expertise. While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part of our community. Ideas and wording for this statement were based on diversity statements from the Ubuntu community http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/diversity, the Python community http://www.python.org/community/diversity and Dreamwidth Studios http://www.dreamwidth.org/legal/diversity. This document is usable under a Creative Commons 3.0 BY-SA license. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 05:31:35PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote: Hi, first of all let me say a *big thank you* for who took a moment (or more) to think about this proposal, criticizing the form of it, reviewing it, sending patches and fixes, asking for clarifications or providing them. And not only in this thread but also in IRC and via private mails. Thanks for doing this and I like the first draft of it. Time will tell if we attract the people who are not currently part of our community. -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux ==.| http://kevix.myopenid.com..| | : :' : The Universal OS| mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/.| | `. `' http://www.debian.org/.| http://counter.li.org [#238656]| |___`-Unless I ask to be CCd,.assume I am subscribed._| Die, v.: To stop sinning suddenly. -- Elbert Hubbard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120326161939.GA6339@horacrux
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Russ Allbery wrote: I think, rather than saying that we won't discriminate on the basis of something like technical ability, we should instead say something along the lines of: We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of particular expertise. While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part of our community. http://pinterest.com/pin/244953667202151755/ :) -- .''`.The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are : :' :strong at the broken places.- Ernest Hemingway `. `' `-Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120325071931.GB3434@aenima
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 09:49:34AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote: gregor herrmann gre...@debian.org writes: On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 20:38:39 +0100, Enrico Zini wrote: I can think of another thing that we care about, which I don't see mentioned here: We expect people to be constructive members of the community. Agreed. And I think we are also not open to people who don't share these values, e.g. people with a racist, sexist, ... behaviour. That gets to another troubling part of the draft: Are there not some political opinions, even some religions, that we should discriminate against as being detrimental to the goal of a universal operating system? -- \ “Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity | `\of the graveyard.” —Justice Roberts in 319 U.S. 624 (1943) | _o__) | Ben Finney It's difficult. We don't censor our mailing lists: we don't often throw people out. We are very accepting. This si the argument that comes up so very regularly when we get people from outside the project saying Remove my name/post because I did something silly a long time ago - it's a bit late, and all you do is draw further attention to yourself - it's archived everywhere. We don't tolerate extreme sexist/racist behaviour - but we will accept many forms of intolerant/difficult behaviour on our mailing lists. People do begin to understand the culture after a while and most people work together well. In fact, Debian is a textbook example of a self-organising society - most of us hang around here because we want to and we value Debian the operating system and Debian the Project/society/internet grouping. It happens that we've got LGBT, many racial backgrounds, both biological sexes, all gender identities, people from many language backgrounds, people with disabilities, people of all religious beliefs and people who have none (should I need a pastor who is also a sysadmin, I know exactly who to turn to, for example), people who live in all environments up to and including the ultra self-sufficient types living remotely and off-grid. About the only political stance we've taken was a very long time ago: posts from a Finnish neo-Nazi weere removed as a) culturally inappropriate, b) essentially entirely irrelevant to Debian and c) inappropriate for certain European and other countries where Nazi propaganda is illegal. Debian _sounds_ diverse and is diverse: novice users may be significantly put off by perceived technical difficulty, novice maintainers/developers/formally recognised contributors are usually Debian users with some degree of experience - but we all contribute in some way. Don't get too hung up on the statement provided that it's fairly reflective of the fact that the project seeks to be inclusive and to support the OS which is largely culture-neutral. Just my 0.2c AndyC -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120325123107.ga22...@galactic.demon.co.uk
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 01:31:07PM +0100, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: It happens that we've got LGBT, many racial backgrounds, both biological sexes, all gender identities, people from many language backgrounds, people with disabilities, people of all religious beliefs and people who have none (should I need a pastor who is also a sysadmin, I know exactly who to turn to, for example), people who live in all environments up to and including the ultra self-sufficient types living remotely and off-grid. About the only political stance we've taken was a very long time ago: posts from a Finnish neo-Nazi were removed as a) culturally inappropriate, b) essentially entirely irrelevant to Debian and c) inappropriate for certain European and other countries where Nazi propaganda is illegal. some people might see a short statement like 'we dont discriminate and accept all people' as 'better'. the idea that you dont enumerate any group and use a general term for 'all catagroies' sounds like you have won something by not leaving anyone out. But the nature of the statement is not suppose to be 'perfect' because its the enemy of the good. The general trend in technical fields is that white, middle-class, college-educated, American/European, English-speaking, cis-gendered, hetero males are going to apply 99% of the time and dont need to be reminded of these facts. So a statement should explicitly list a good mix of what we are not getting, and by 'good mix' I dont mean exhaustive. Because if you have a half-way decent one, it will lend itself to the idea that you are just darn happy to include other less-well-included folks. In fact, I like the statement the way Andrew wrote it because it is an informal, friendly and somewhat humorous approach to sounding inclusive. It doesn't sound like your talking to an HR person who is reading something prepared by a lawyer, it sounds like a cool human wrote it for other cool humans. And the idea that our statement can be edited and extended (by a patch :)) is something that most democracies dont allow, so why not add something if people want it, its not like you print these things out. And I dont think its bad to make a version that's not pefect the first time or dont write one. We modify all kinds of documents all the time. But I'm sure I'm in the minority for thinking that :) -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux ==.| http://kevix.myopenid.com..| | : :' : The Universal OS| mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/.| | `. `' http://www.debian.org/.| http://counter.li.org [#238656]| |___`-Unless I ask to be CCd,.assume I am subscribed._| Tagline, you're it! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120325234040.GA10498@horacrux
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On 03/23/2012 09:36 PM, Charles Plessy wrote:
Le Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri a écrit :
A diversity statement is a document expliciting something really
important: that everyone (no matter of gender identity or expression,
race, ethnicity, size, nationality, sexual orientation, ability level,
neurotype, religion, elder status, family structure, culture, subculture,
political opinion, identity, and self-identification) is welcome to join
our project.
Dear Francesca,
I think that it is a good idea to document and summarise in a short text what
the Debian Project is doing to be open. In that sense, the DFSG number 6 and
the participation of Developers who do not maintain packages are, as already
underlined by others, key informations to give.
I have more mixed feelings with the long list of inclusions in your draft,
which remind me patents or the autmatic disclaimers we see in many licenses.
Just imagine how it would look like if the list of who we would consider being
everyone were written in all capitals. In addition, the more precise we try
to be in listing who we welcome, the more it is a mistake to forget items the
list.
Note that division of men in categories is controversial in some cultures.
For
instance, one of two most supported candidates for presidence of France is
actually proposing to modify the French constitution in a way opposite to the
spirit of your disclaimer, by removing the mention that French citizens of
different races are equal, to underline that the French republic does not
recognise the concept of race.
Another problematic item in your list is neurotype, for which there is no
entry in the US national libray of medecine database (PubMed) that indexes
more
than two million peer-reviewed articles in medecine and biology. Put in the
same list as genotype and phenotype, it vehiculates the feeling that
neurotype is an equally precise concept, which is not.
The absence of sex is also putting some cultural imprinting in your list,
which achieves the opposite of the initial goal: while the statement is there
to promote openness, it also reveals how culturally biased our project is.
In summary, I would much prefer a short statement, where writing everyone is
enough to mean everyone. I think that a variation of the following
paragraph
proposed by Russ, perhaps complemented by a comment about the DFSG, is enough.
Le Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 10:19:19AM -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit :
We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of
particular expertise. While much of the work of the Project is
technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the
Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome
such contributors as part of our community.
Have a nice week-end,
I adhere to Charles's comment. I would prefer a short statement where
there are no extensive lists of differences between us. I do believe
that's a way to make explicit segregation which is worse than implicit
segregation and will put us in a gray area where someone may feel is
left behind because how he consideres h{im,er}self is not listed. I know
this could sound silly for some but believe me that making a diversity
statement when there has been no prior segregation is silly too.
Shorter is better and give us space to be more inclusive that making
extensive lists which will make the statement more exclusive.
--
Jose Luis Rivas - GPG: 0x7C4DF50D / 0xCACAB118
The Debian Project Developer -- http://ghostbar.ath.cx
Barquisimeto, Venezuela
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 10:06 AM, Charles Plessy wrote: In summary, I would much prefer a short statement, where writing everyone is enough to mean everyone. I think that a variation of the following paragraph proposed by Russ, perhaps complemented by a comment about the DFSG, is enough. Agreed, the list of differences serves no useful purpose and can never be complete. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caktje6hg+tscyeeqqm7jwswpgbmxkohuub7jo36roaecuao...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
* Francesca Ciceri madame...@debian.org, 2012-03-23, 14:28: Although this list cannot be exhaustive, we explicitly honour diversity in age, culture, ethnicity, genotype, gender identity or expression, language, national origin, neurotype, phenotype, political beliefs, profession, race, religion, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, subculture and technical ability. What is neurotype? I couldn't find it in any dictionary. What does it mean to honour diversity in genotype or phenotype? -- Jakub Wilk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120323150200.ga2...@jwilk.net
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes: There are other kinds of ability besides technical ability. All of those useful activities you mentioned depend on the ability of the people doing them. And it is right and proper that when we choose with whom we do these things, we should discriminate on the basis of ability. And when it comes to technical work, we should discriminate on the basis of technical as well as other kinds of ability. To say we will not discriminate on the basis of technical ability, when what we are undertaking is fundamentally a technical project, is absurd. I think, rather than saying that we won't discriminate on the basis of something like technical ability, we should instead say something along the lines of: We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of particular expertise. While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part of our community. That's not very good, and I wouldn't want to put that into the statement directly, but it should hopefully communicate the basic idea. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/874ntfjkvc@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote: But I'd also like to have some inputs from you all, on it. Since one of my responsibilities in Debian is to actually discriminate people, I feel like I should contribute :) I like your idea. Such a statement is IMO a direct consequence of defining ourselves a universal operating system, and of having DFSG5 and DFSG6 in our Social Contract; but it's good that we spell it out. I also like the draft, and I'd happily accept it as it is. This is the extra input I can give: The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. We are committed to being a community that everyone feels good about joining. Although we may not be able to satisty everyone, we will always work to treat everyone well. Whenever any participant has made a mistake, we expect them to take responsibility for it. If someone has been harmed or offended, it is our responsibility to listen carefully and respectfully, and do our best to right the wrong. I can think of another thing that we care about, which I don't see mentioned here: We expect people to be constructive members of the community. That is something that we have learnt to pay attention to, over the years. Although this list cannot be exhaustive, we explicitly honour diversity in age, culture, ethnicity, genotype, gender identity or expression, language, national origin, neurotype, phenotype, political beliefs, profession, race, religion, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, subculture and technical ability. I could see elsewhere in this thread how detailed lists are a fantastic bikeshedding magnet; I wish I had an idea on how to get away with a list and just say what part of universal do you not get?. But I don't have any good idea to offer, and that list does the job. I fully agree with Russ at http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00054.html and I wonder if it's just enough to replace technical ability with skillset, and field of expertise. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
* gregor herrmann gre...@debian.org, 2012-03-23, 21:07: And I think we are also not open to people who don't share these values, e.g. people with a racist, sexist, ... behaviour. Why? -- Jakub Wilk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120323201929.ga4...@jwilk.net
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Joerg Jaspert jo...@debian.org writes: On 12794 March 1977, Francesca Ciceri wrote: a recent discussion [1] on Debian Women mailing list made me realize that the Debian Project, the *Universal* Operating System, doesn't have a diversity statement [2]. Why do we need such a statement? Are we doing something better or worse with/without it, does it change anything? It's a statement of ideals. Statements of ideals don't generally change things in the way that, oh, code or even enforced policies change things. The influence is at best subtle. But I think statements of ideals are useful things to have because they help people think about ideals, and remember that the ideals are important, and that we can all do something to live up to those ideals. And that that can be as significant of an action as fixing a technical bug. I know that when I run across the Dreamwidth one and re-read it, it means something to me, and it subtlely makes my behavior towards others better for a while. I think it's fine if the statement of ideals doesn't really mean much to some; heaven knows that I'm often not in the mood for them, and when I'm not, they seem like a bunch of fluff. But I do think it can have a subtle, long-term effect. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87398zgjbg@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Jakub Wilk jw...@debian.org writes: * gregor herrmann gre...@debian.org, 2012-03-23, 21:07: And I think we are also not open to people who don't share these values, e.g. people with a racist, sexist, ... behaviour. Why? You can't have an open and welcoming environment if you're open to people who work to make the environment non-welcoming to others. It is, like most things in life, a balance. There's an old saying: the problem with an open mind is that people throw all kinds of crap into it. Neither one's mind nor one's community should be *too* open. Inclusivity does mean telling people who are not willing to allow others to be included that they should find a different project to be part of. The point of a diversity statement is not to accept all behavior of any kind. It's to make a positive statement about what sort of behavior we're actively seeking out and want to align ourselves with. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87y5qrf4je@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
gregor herrmann gre...@debian.org writes: On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 20:38:39 +0100, Enrico Zini wrote: I can think of another thing that we care about, which I don't see mentioned here: We expect people to be constructive members of the community. Agreed. And I think we are also not open to people who don't share these values, e.g. people with a racist, sexist, ... behaviour. That gets to another troubling part of the draft: Are there not some political opinions, even some religions, that we should discriminate against as being detrimental to the goal of a universal operating system? -- \ “Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity | `\of the graveyard.” —Justice Roberts in 319 U.S. 624 (1943) | _o__) | Ben Finney pgp2D2ZPofCLC.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Francesca Ciceri madame...@debian.org writes: On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:56:21PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: I think we should make it clear that our aim is that participation in the development of Debian should be equally open to all, discriminating only on the basis of people's ability and the quality of their contributions. Makes sense, but it strongly depends on the meaning of participation in the developement of Debian. Note that Debian is the name of the operating system we're building. The name of the project is “the Debian Project”. Sometimes we're sloppy with wording, but it seems we need to be clear in this document since that sloppiness has already led to a misunderstanding of what is meant. IMO Debian became in the last years something more than an operating system, and - as consequence - the development of Debian does no longer mean only packaging (or other code-related activity). Basically anyone can make a valuable contribution to Debian. So here, I think you'd be best referring specifically to the project, since you no longer mean specifically Debian (which is an operating system). -- \ “You can never entirely stop being what you once were. That's | `\ why it's important to be the right person today, and not put it | _o__) off until tomorrow.” —Larry Wall | Ben Finney pgpJkr44R6hId.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Ben Finney ben+deb...@benfinney.id.au writes: That gets to another troubling part of the draft: Are there not some political opinions, even some religions, that we should discriminate against as being detrimental to the goal of a universal operating system? Meh. Yes, sort of, I guess, but pretty much everyone else's diversity statements include those, and I think people understand what it means. Obviously, different things in any list like this can contradict each other (neurotype diversity doesn't mean tolerating people with an uncontrolled hatred of women, to pick an obvious example), but by the time one attempts to split all of those hairs, you end up with a statement that fails to be inspirational or a meaningful statement of ideals. A diversity statement is not a binding rule that has to be parsed for any possible ambiguity. It's an aspirational statement that contains grey areas, which I think people have to sort out for themselves. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/874nteexge@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes: You can't have an open and welcoming environment if you're open to people who work to make the environment non-welcoming to others. It is, like most things in life, a balance. Yes. This is why I'm troubled by the blanket welcome to opinions, like political opinions and religions, without regard to what those opinions direct people to do. There are some hateful religions and political opinions out there, which are significantly at odds with an open and welcoming environment, and I don't think the Debian Project should be welcoming to those. We should welcome every person, but not every opinion. -- \ “[I]t is impossible for anyone to begin to learn that which he | `\thinks he already knows.” —Epictetus, _Discourses_ | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87limqkjmn@benfinney.id.au
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On 03/23/12 15:28, Francesca Ciceri wrote: So, I wrote a draft - mainly based on the one [4] created for Ubuntu by Matt Zimmerman with the help of Mary Gardiner, Valerie Aurora and Benjamin Mako Hill - and I'd like to propose it to the DPL to be official published. Thanks for doing this. However, I'd prefer it if we acknowledged and published this by way of a General Resolution. It's not that I don't think the DPL is empowered to publish it without a GR but I think that a) it feels better to me to have statements that express the whole project acknowledged and voted on by everyone b) it will give the whole welcoming everyone/not discriminating statement more weight. Best regards, Faidon -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f6d0793.3010...@debian.org
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Le Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri a écrit : A diversity statement is a document expliciting something really important: that everyone (no matter of gender identity or expression, race, ethnicity, size, nationality, sexual orientation, ability level, neurotype, religion, elder status, family structure, culture, subculture, political opinion, identity, and self-identification) is welcome to join our project. Dear Francesca, I think that it is a good idea to document and summarise in a short text what the Debian Project is doing to be open. In that sense, the DFSG number 6 and the participation of Developers who do not maintain packages are, as already underlined by others, key informations to give. I have more mixed feelings with the long list of inclusions in your draft, which remind me patents or the autmatic disclaimers we see in many licenses. Just imagine how it would look like if the list of who we would consider being everyone were written in all capitals. In addition, the more precise we try to be in listing who we welcome, the more it is a mistake to forget items the list. Note that division of men in categories is controversial in some cultures. For instance, one of two most supported candidates for presidence of France is actually proposing to modify the French constitution in a way opposite to the spirit of your disclaimer, by removing the mention that French citizens of different races are equal, to underline that the French republic does not recognise the concept of race. Another problematic item in your list is neurotype, for which there is no entry in the US national libray of medecine database (PubMed) that indexes more than two million peer-reviewed articles in medecine and biology. Put in the same list as genotype and phenotype, it vehiculates the feeling that neurotype is an equally precise concept, which is not. The absence of sex is also putting some cultural imprinting in your list, which achieves the opposite of the initial goal: while the statement is there to promote openness, it also reveals how culturally biased our project is. In summary, I would much prefer a short statement, where writing everyone is enough to mean everyone. I think that a variation of the following paragraph proposed by Russ, perhaps complemented by a comment about the DFSG, is enough. Le Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 10:19:19AM -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit : We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of particular expertise. While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part of our community. Have a nice week-end, -- Charles Plessy Debian Med packaging team, http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120324020655.ga16...@falafel.plessy.net
