Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Laura Arjona Reina]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi Shirish, all

Sorry for the delay in coming back to this.

Finally, after reading the whole thread about this topic, and with
my anti-harassment team hat on, I can say that we acknowledge that
Shirish is not a harasser and we acknowledge his current efforts to
participate in creating a more inclusive and welcoming environment
in Debian.

Thus, I've proposed the Debian Planet Team to reenable the new
feed he specifically provided for the planet.

Shirish, I hope we can read you back in Planet Debian soon.

Best regards

Laura Arjona Reina
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona


El 08/04/17 a las 06:23, shirish शिरीष escribió:
> Reply in-line -
> 
> On 08/04/2017, Charles Plessy  wrote:
>> Le Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 03:00:10PM +0530, shirish शिरीष a
>> écrit :
>>> 
>>> Could you or anybody else please share even if 
>>> unintentionally, I have been demeaning to anybody in my 
>>> writings. While I have repeatedly apologized, I would like
>>> to know where I have demeaned people. Everybody is welcome
>>> to point to me either publicly or privately what is/was 
>>> demeaning in my writing.
>> 
>> Hi Shirish and everybody,
>> 
> 
> Hi Charles,
> 
>> I think that there is a broad consensus that the core problem 
>> is the image that you included, not the writings.
>> 
>> On my side, do trust you that you did not intend to hurt 
>> anybody, and that you did not intend the use of this image to 
>> be eye-catching to attract readers, nor to convey derogatory 
>> messages about women.  But Debian is a very broad community,
>> so if you are told that the image has made Debian less
>> welcoming than it should, and that it has put people at risk to
>> lose their jobs, you (and > me) have to trust that.
>> 
> 
> I understand both the concerns which have been bought and shared 
> before.
> 
>> If I could sugest a good way out of this situation, it would
>> be that you acknowledge (briefly) that you understood that
>> images are sensitive materials that have much more potential to
>> harm others than just plain text, >and that you will be careful
>> in the future.  In return, I think that it would fair if the 
>> anti-harassment team would also acknowledge that you are not a
>>> harrasser,to cleary any possible misunderstanding if a third
>> party stumbles in > the archives of this discussion at
>> some point in the future.
>> 
> 
> I do acknowledge that images have more potential to harm others,
>  although I believe in exact opposite that words have both the 
> power to heal and burn in ways images never can.
> 
> Nevertheless, I did say sorry in 
> https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/2017/04/06/the-fatalistic-att
itude/
>
>
>
>
> 
but if there is anything more that is needed to be done by me which
> will make amends I'm ready to do that. If it is simply to 
> ackowledge here on the mailing list, have done that. If it is to 
> acknowledge on another blog post that my choice of picture was 
> not great and be more sensitive in choosing pictures am ready to 
> do that as well.
> 
> For my part, I also tried asking the same question in 
> https://en.forums.wordpress.com/topic/is-there-a-way-to-make-photos-
covered-or-content-covered?
>
>
>
>
> 
But as can be seen no one has bothered to reply as of yet. I
> would probably use webapps.stackexchange.com to see if some sort 
> of technical solution is also available that could be used as 
> well.
> 
> I believe the ideal solution would be a mix of both social and 
> technical solution .
> 
> As an aside, yesterday, I just registered and tried hex.bz which 
> is a public instance of mastodon and saw there is a neat CW 
> (Content Warning) code which hides content and if people want to 
> make a choice to still see the content then they are 
> responsible.
> 
>> Have a nice week-end,
>> 
> 
> The same to you as well sir.
> 
>> -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan
>> 
> 
> 

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[shirish शिरीष]

Dear all,

For my part have put what is suggested at
https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/2017/04/09/the-queen-is-dead-long-live-the-queen/

Maybe it could be better worded, I don't know.

Also I did try to figure out the technical solution at
http://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/104999/how-to-have-secrets-on-wordpress-com

but no answer is forthcoming there as well, guess will have to give up
on that front.


-- 
  Regards,
  Shirish Agarwal  शिरीष अग्रवाल
  My quotes in this email licensed under CC 3.0
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/
http://flossexperiences.wordpress.com
EB80 462B 08E1 A0DE A73A  2C2F 9F3D C7A4 E1C4 D2D8

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[shirish शिरीष]

Reply in-line -

On 08/04/2017, Charles Plessy  wrote:
> Le Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 03:00:10PM +0530, shirish शिरीष a écrit :
>>
>> Could you or anybody else please share even if unintentionally, I have
>> been demeaning to anybody in my writings. While I have repeatedly
>> apologized, I would like to know where I have demeaned people.
>> Everybody is welcome to point to me either publicly or privately what
>> is/was demeaning in my writing.
>
> Hi Shirish and everybody,
>

Hi Charles,

> I think that there is a broad consensus that the core problem is the image
> that you included, not the writings.
>
> On my side, do trust you that you did not intend to hurt anybody, and that
> you did not intend the use of this image to be eye-catching to attract 
> readers,
> nor to convey derogatory messages about women.  But Debian is a very broad
> community, so if you are told that the image has made Debian less welcoming
> than it should, and that it has put people at risk to lose their jobs, you
> (and > me) have to trust that.
>

I understand both the concerns which have been bought and shared before.

> If I could sugest a good way out of this situation, it would be that you
> acknowledge (briefly) that you understood that images are sensitive
> materials that have much more potential to harm others than just plain text, 
> >and that you will be careful in the future.  In return, I think that it 
> would fair if
> the anti-harassment team would also acknowledge that you are not a
>> harrasser,to cleary any possible misunderstanding if a third party 
> stumbles in > the archives of this discussion at some point in the future.
>

I do acknowledge that images have more potential to harm others,
although I believe in exact opposite that words have both the power to
heal and burn in ways images never can.

Nevertheless, I did say sorry in
https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/2017/04/06/the-fatalistic-attitude/
but if there is anything more that is needed to be done by me which
will make amends I'm ready to do that. If it is simply to ackowledge
here on the mailing list, have done that. If it is to acknowledge on
another blog post that my choice of picture was not great and be more
sensitive in choosing pictures am ready to do that as well.

For my part, I also tried asking the same question in
https://en.forums.wordpress.com/topic/is-there-a-way-to-make-photos-covered-or-content-covered?

But as can be seen no one has bothered to reply as of yet. I would
probably use webapps.stackexchange.com to see if some sort of
technical solution is also available that could be used as well.

I believe the ideal solution would be a mix of both social and
technical solution .

As an aside, yesterday, I just registered and tried hex.bz which is a
public instance of mastodon and saw there is a neat CW (Content
Warning) code which hides content and if people want to make a choice
to still see the content then they are responsible.

> Have a nice week-end,
>

The same to you as well sir.

> --
> Charles Plessy
> Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan
>


-- 
  Regards,
  Shirish Agarwal  शिरीष अग्रवाल
  My quotes in this email licensed under CC 3.0
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/
http://flossexperiences.wordpress.com
EB80 462B 08E1 A0DE A73A  2C2F 9F3D C7A4 E1C4 D2D8

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Charles Plessy]

Le Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 03:00:10PM +0530, shirish शिरीष a écrit :
> 
> Could you or anybody else please share even if unintentionally, I have
> been demeaning to anybody in my writings. While I have repeatedly
> apologized, I would like to know where I have demeaned people.
> Everybody is welcome to point to me either publicly or privately what
> is/was demeaning in my writing.

Hi Shirish and everybody,

I think that there is a broad consensus that the core problem is the image that
you included, not the writings.

On my side, do trust you that you did not intend to hurt anybody, and that you
did not intend the use of this image to be eye-catching to attract readers, nor
to convey derogatory messages about women.  But Debian is a very broad
community, so if you are told that the image has made Debian less welcoming
than it should, and that it has put people at risk to lose their jobs, you (and
me) have to trust that.

If I could sugest a good way out of this situation, it would be that you
acknowledge (briefly) that you understood that images are sensitive materials
that have much more potential to harm others than just plain text, and that you
will be careful in the future.  In return, I think that it would fair if the
anti-harassment team would also acknowledge that you are not a harrasser, to
cleary any possible misunderstanding if a third party stumbles in the archives
of this discussion at some point in the future.

Have a nice week-end,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[shirish शिरीष]

in-line :-

On 07/04/2017, Joerg Jaspert  wrote:

>
> Is anything you ever wrote short? I have yet to see the day where you
> produce output thats less than a dozen paragraphs. And thats straight to
> the point instead of retelling the whole story of earth and humankind to
> set a base that in the end doesn't appear to be neccessary. I skip most
> of your stuff usually because its just way too long.
>

agree to disagree. I have been told in past that I make jumps and
connections without giving contextual information. I don't deny that
it takes me much more time and space than the other person, but that's
the only way I know.

For instance, probably this week-end I'll be sharing and posting about
a certain political person and a political party. Now the party has
been there for around 50 years. Because of the way the party was
formed and incidents that happened or occurred it is being the way it
is. If I just call the political party ' a nuisance party' and the
person/s involved in an incident 'nuisance persons' without giving
that contextual information, it will neither make sense for people who
do not know about the political party in question and it will be easy
for people to accuse me of being from some other political party or
worse.

>> Cut to 2016 and after South Africa trip, I had promised myself as well
>> as others on the debconf-discuss that I will share some of the
>> highlights of the trip. I found photos really capture the moment and
>> once you start describing a certain photo you relive the moment all
>> over again. For this purposes, I did get access to debconf gallery
>> page but its usage is only for debconf images.
>
> And that stuff is good, and while it all was lengthy, it actually was a
> nice read.
>

At least something turned out to be worthwhile :)

>> One of the first lessons I was taught the importance of having both
>> pictures and short paragraphs.
>
> Short paragraphs alone don't make it better if you end up with a million
> of them. Turns out to be the same long text in the end.
>

agreed.

>> Now as far as me writing technical content about Debian on p.d.o. is
>> concerned, that's a laugh. I do not think that there is anything I
>> write technically which will be news either to Debian or/and DD's. In
>> fact, if people looked at the itsfoss.com articles they will find most
>> are beginner-friendly articles.
>
> And Planet is not a forum where everything must be news to DDs/DMs and
> gosh, beware, if we don't learn something new technical every day on
> Planet, day is bad. Not at all.
>

Ok.

>> Somebody shared that ranting about Debian is fine. I disagree with
>> that.
>
> But of course ranting is fine.
>

Ok.

>> Having said that, I know now its not alright to have anything even
>> remotedly talk about sex at p.d.o. at all.
>
> And thats lets me wonder if you understood what you got told about the
> one post from you that got this all started. No, talking about sex is
> NOT forbidden. Thats not what you got told. Its also not "must be safe
> for 12 year olds".
>
> The fine point is to do it in a way that will not get fellow Debianites
> into trouble (and to not have sex talk as your only content...). A
> picture like was in your post is able to get people into trouble, some
> employers do have pretty strict rules. Describing an act (in a halfway
> human way, not like writing a porn movie seller) won't (as much) make
> trouble.
>

That I understood, I think there are two strategies I could use if I
had to do the same thing today  -

a. Not to syndicate to planet-debian at all - the easiest way .

b. Instead of putting the whole post just use <---more---> , this way
the content above the fold which would be textual matter would only
come, which probably will just be a paragraph. if a person/s decide to
visit the blog then planet.debian.org is not to be blamed. This would
be only for controversial topics though or something where I'm not
sure of.

> (And then add on top that we are a pretty huge community with a whole
> load of different views on life and all its matters. Keep in mind that
> Planet may be read by all of us, so try to not be demeaning in your
> writings).
>

Could you or anybody else please share even if unintentionally, I have
been demeaning to anybody in my writings. While I have repeatedly
apologized, I would like to know where I have demeaned people.
Everybody is welcome to point to me either publicly or privately what
is/was demeaning in my writing.

If people don't point out and let me know how will I know and correct
my mistakes.

> --
> bye, Joerg
>

-- 
  Regards,
  Shirish Agarwal  शिरीष अग्रवाल
  My quotes in this email licensed under CC 3.0
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/
http://flossexperiences.wordpress.com
EB80 462B 08E1 A0DE A73A  2C2F 9F3D C7A4 E1C4 D2D8

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 14635 March 1977, shirish शिरीष wrote:
> Thank you for your fine words. The same goes for everybody else as
> well. This is going to be a bit long-winded so please excuse.

Is anything you ever wrote short? I have yet to see the day where you
produce output thats less than a dozen paragraphs. And thats straight to
the point instead of retelling the whole story of earth and humankind to
set a base that in the end doesn't appear to be neccessary. I skip most
of your stuff usually because its just way too long.

> Cut to 2016 and after South Africa trip, I had promised myself as well
> as others on the debconf-discuss that I will share some of the
> highlights of the trip. I found photos really capture the moment and
> once you start describing a certain photo you relive the moment all
> over again. For this purposes, I did get access to debconf gallery
> page but its usage is only for debconf images.

And that stuff is good, and while it all was lengthy, it actually was a
nice read.

> One of the first lessons I was taught the importance of having both
> pictures and short paragraphs.

Short paragraphs alone don't make it better if you end up with a million
of them. Turns out to be the same long text in the end.

> Now as far as me writing technical content about Debian on p.d.o. is
> concerned, that's a laugh. I do not think that there is anything I
> write technically which will be news either to Debian or/and DD's. In
> fact, if people looked at the itsfoss.com articles they will find most
> are beginner-friendly articles.

And Planet is not a forum where everything must be news to DDs/DMs and
gosh, beware, if we don't learn something new technical every day on
Planet, day is bad. Not at all.

> Somebody shared that ranting about Debian is fine. I disagree with
> that.

But of course ranting is fine.

> Having said that, I know now its not alright to have anything even
> remotedly talk about sex  at p.d.o. at all.

And thats lets me wonder if you understood what you got told about the
one post from you that got this all started. No, talking about sex is
NOT forbidden. Thats not what you got told. Its also not "must be safe
for 12 year olds". 

The fine point is to do it in a way that will not get fellow Debianites
into trouble (and to not have sex talk as your only content...). A
picture like was in your post is able to get people into trouble, some
employers do have pretty strict rules. Describing an act (in a halfway
human way, not like writing a porn movie seller) won't (as much) make
trouble.

(And then add on top that we are a pretty huge community with a whole
load of different views on life and all its matters. Keep in mind that
Planet may be read by all of us, so try to not be demeaning in your
writings).

-- 
bye, Joerg

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[shirish शिरीष]

Dear Gunnar,

Thank you for your fine words. The same goes for everybody else as
well. This is going to be a bit long-winded so please excuse.

I learnt English in school and there the teacher used to tell us, in
fact force us to write essays. The essays would be typically 1000-1500
words on topics like 'my holidays' , 'my pet' etc. These had to be at
the most in two or three paragraphs, for some reason she dis-liked
small paragraphs. Rightly or wrongly, that is what I learnt .

In college we didn't have the need except for a letter or two excusing
me for a day for something at home or the other.

When working in and with companies the idea was given/planted that all
work/intellectual property is there's so you can't talk anything about
the work you do, so apart from short note here and there there wasn't
much need of documentation.

Cut to 2003/4 and blogging was the in-thing in those days. I don't
remember the name, but there was a blogging service during that time,
very popular, but with the downside (to people in the know) that you
couldn't import or export the content. To be part of this new
charismatic group called 'bloggers' and 'agents of the fourth estate'
, 'crusaders of democracy' and whatever terms of endearment that were
being used to people feel like rockstars. While some people made lots
of money, others were content with being able to post their ideas
without censoring themselves. I hadn't know about Google's 'blogger'
till that point.

So re-using what I had learnt in school, I applied that and it was ok
for everybody else. Then in end 2007 or early 2008 that service for
some reason or the other was stopped. And because that content could
be imported or exported the content was lost. So searching a new home
for my musings, one of the pre-conditions this time around was that
content could be imported or exported and luckily blogger was the only
service at that point which was free and had this service.
https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/2008/01/27/open-hardware/ - My
first blog post.

Blogger became my home and for the next 3-4 years after which I
started finding it limiting and realizing it's not free software .

Then cut to 2011 and I chaged to wordpress.com and I still continued
in my old style  of writing. Over the years, there have been few and
far instances where people offered or asked me to write and I observed
that they would put a photograph or picture or two in the blog post. I
still didn't think much of that.

Around the same time, I had started covering foss events around the
city, the country wherever I was invited to and I started to quickly
ran out of web-space for photos. I used flickr and photobucket and
quickly ran out of the space allocated to free users. But as these
were just random musings and online web-shops quickly become expensive
the only thing was left to use community-oriented offerings such as
the gallery offerings offered by fosscommunity.in . The gallery
service worked great until one time it broke and all the content wiped
clean. IIRC, there was lot of spam.

Cut to 2016 and after South Africa trip, I had promised myself as well
as others on the debconf-discuss that I will share some of the
highlights of the trip. I found photos really capture the moment and
once you start describing a certain photo you relive the moment all
over again. For this purposes, I did get access to debconf gallery
page but its usage is only for debconf images.

https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/page/3/ - Debconf 16 musings

Then cut to 2017 and I started to devote some time to write about Debian .

https://itsfoss.com/author/shirish/

One of the first lessons I was taught the importance of having both
pictures and short paragraphs. I was told and agree that having
photographs are like a break in the clouds. I was told to also make
smaller paragraphs and both the pieces of advise helped me quite a bit
to mature a bit as a writer.

Now as far as me writing technical content about Debian on p.d.o. is
concerned, that's a laugh. I do not think that there is anything I
write technically which will be news either to Debian or/and DD's. In
fact, if people looked at the itsfoss.com articles they will find most
are beginner-friendly articles.

Somebody shared that ranting about Debian is fine. I disagree with
that. Two pet peeves, debian-installer is ugly and needs lot of work
(in design) and would be nice if wiki.debian.org got mediawiki instead
of the current solution.

Now while writing blog posts on both these topics are easy, the rants
will remain as they are. It would be useful and relevant ONLY if I
were to do something about it. As shared in Debconf, it's a do-ocracy
which is important rather than rants and raves . Neither of the two
have any easy fixes and would need both expertise and probably
hundreds of hours sinking in to have something worthwhile. I neither
have the expertise in either nor do have the amount of time required
so such posts wouldn't be useful.

Even 

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Gunnar Wolf]

alberto fuentes dijo [Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 01:30:19PM +0200]:
> (...)
> It comes down to know if planet is about debian or about debian developers
> 
> My personal opinion is that it should be about debian, not about debian
> developers. Random rants, specially cathartic ones slightly related to the
> debian philosophy of life, should be curbed. And therefore, post about your
> holidays or book reviews should be out of the question. Rants about debian
> should be okay tho :)
> 
> Luckily only a handful of people step out of this line, so in practice is
> not a problem. Specially by a beloved developer as Russ, which many people
> like and which opinion in matters is important for many as well

Humh... Well, we did have this discussion a long time ago. Of course,
discussions can be brought back to life; reality changes, actors in a
given place change, and all that.

Back in the day, many of us argued that our Planet should not just be
a view into what we Debian-affiliated people are doing WRT Debian,
but... I'll phrase it as a window into what each of us _is_ as a
person. That helps us know our fellow posters, and helps externals get
a feeling of what they will find if they step closer to the project.

About this thread in particular: I enjoy Shirish's posts, and have
told so to him privately. I did think some people would complain
regarding this last post, but -besides the large, probably needless
photo- I don't think there's anything in it that violates our
CoC. It's a nice narration about a series of thoughts that came to him
a very long time ago, doing something that while socially not very
accepted, is very common in people his age (at the time of what
happened).

Terribly Debian-relevant? Nope. But neither is about half of what I've
posted over the years (maybe more than half). And, still, I often get
helpful or inquisitive comments on what I post from fellow Debianers
via different media.

> (...)
> For many, debian is full of friends, so sharing with planet debian feels
> like sharing with friends. But the reality is that there are many people
> reading the feed. Many more than your inner circle of friends in debian
> 
> Luckily, most people realize this and only share their posts tagged with
> debian

Out of the current upper stories of Planet Debian, I can see some
people talking about their life in general, some people talking about
their free software projects or technical tips (not directly related
to Debian), some people talking about Debian "properly". I don't
really agree with your assessment: Some people do use this just as a
window into their Debian-related life, but some others just share our
thoughts as they come by.

There are people who often write many non-Debian posts which I
enjoy. I hope the current consensus allows them to stay there.

> (...)
> I have a small blog as well with a couple of posts about debian, but I
> still dont think it is useful enough to waste so many peoples time by
> aggregating it to the planet

I would invite you to add it to the Planet.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Ian Jackson]

shirish शिरीष writes ("Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of 
evolution of documentation and CoC"):
> Please CC me as I'm not subscribed to the mailing list. Please excuse
> the non-brievity of the mail.
> 
> Couple of weeks back, I put up a blog post
> https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/2017/03/30/the-tale-of-the-dancing-girl-nsfw/

I don't much read blogs, and I don't read planet, mostly because I'm
too old-school for that kind of thing.  But:

> Because the subject matter is mature and uncomfortable to many people
> my feed was turned off.

In response to your email, I went and visited that blog posting.

Thank you for the NSFW warning.  Due to that, I read your posting in
w3m.  That avoided me having sexualised imagery appearing on my screen
in the open-plan office I work in.

I agree with everything Russ said in his posting about "Safe for
work".  In particular, if I had been a reader of planet.d.o, and a
NSFW image had appeared on my screen, I would immediately have
reported it to the appropriate administrators and expected them to
remove it.  (After reacting in panic to hide the offending tab!)

I am much more relaxed about textual content.  I found the textual
content of your article fine from a policy point of view.  I have no
problems with extended philosophical musings on an aggregator like
p.d.o, so long as the rate at which they are posted is low enough that
they don't start to overwhelm other stuff.

Thanks,
Ian.

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 14634 March 1977, shirish शिरीष wrote:

> While Laura had shared with me that she is the only one who is behind
> the antiharassm...@debian.org, I was under the mis-guided
> understanding that pla...@debian.org was a team and not just Benjamin
> alone.

You can find out who is behind which team at

https://www.debian.org/intro/organization

which does list more for Planet than just mako, as well as more for
anti-harrassment than Laura.


-- 
bye, Joerg

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 14634 March 1977, Russ Allbery wrote:
> The content should be such that it is suitable for people over 12
> years of age.

> now in the PlanetDebian wiki page added with the above revision is, if
> true, quite significant.  If that is Planet Debian policy, I'll switch my
> aggregation feed for planet.debian.org over to only posts I explicitly tag
> with Debian, which will mean removing nearly all of my posts.

Thats not the policy. I'm also not sure if I like what Holger has
rewritten it too, though in the end his text is just a reminder to think
about if the post fits.

And no, the DebConf CoC does not fit Planet.

-- 
bye, Joerg

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[shirish शिरीष]

Dear all,

@ Laura, thank you for your explanation. You are right, it was only
30th March so I over-reacted, sorry .

As shared let's take couple of weeks and then come back to this. It
would help everybody (including me) have a more cool, detached look at
things.

Having said that, I would urge all those who may have the energy and
the time to help Laura with her antiharassment hat on as well as if
some people also can find time and the energy to help Benjamin Mako
Hill for planet with $ stuff that perhaps needs to be worked through
as well.

While Laura had shared with me that she is the only one who is behind
the antiharassm...@debian.org, I was under the mis-guided
understanding that pla...@debian.org was a team and not just Benjamin
alone.

The more people can perhaps help lighten the load on these two
individuals the better it would be for them and perhaps the project as
well.

just having 1 person IMO means you will always have a bus factor of 1
where it is much easier for the person/s to have a burn out as Laura
herself has so indicated. It would be much nicer if there is a team at
both the places for the short and medium term.

@Russ - I do appreciate the work you do and in fact am envious of you
quite a bit as you seem to have boundless energy and passion to review
books. I wanted to be a librarian so I could read books all day when I
was little, so would urge you not to do anything hasty atm. If at all
possible, please help them in anyway you can.

I am hopeful that in the next few weeks we do have a document or set
of documents which clarifies a bit more rather than just remaining
status-quoist .

Look forward to people dedicating time and energy to make Debian a
more welcoming place than it is already .

-- 
  Regards,
  Shirish Agarwal  शिरीष अग्रवाल
  My quotes in this email licensed under CC 3.0
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/
http://flossexperiences.wordpress.com
EB80 462B 08E1 A0DE A73A  2C2F 9F3D C7A4 E1C4 D2D8

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 01:50:33PM +0200, alberto fuentes wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 1:44 PM, Lars Wirzenius  wrote:
> 
> > In short, it's about Debian contributors, not just Debian. Based on my
> > memory, it has always been that way.
> 
> I know the current (and past, since this is not the first time I argue
> this) state of affairs :)

It has indeed always been this way; the argument has indeed come up many times;
and the answer for those who want a different content is always the same (and
never acted upon): nothing stops you from running your own planet. Such a thing
could even be linked to from p.d.o or elsewhere in the Debian-web. So far nobody
has opted to do so.

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.


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Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Laura Arjona Reina]

Hi

El 05/04/17 a las 22:09, shirish शिरीष escribió:

Dear all,

Please CC me as I'm not subscribed to the mailing list. Please excuse
the non-brievity of the mail.

Couple of weeks back,I put up a blog post
https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/2017/03/30/the-tale-of-the-dancing-girl-nsfw/



Sorry, but no "couple of weeks". Your post is from March 30th.


Because the subject matter is mature and uncomfortable to many people
my feed was turned off.

In response I was given/shared three documents/links  -

https://wiki.debian.org/PlanetDebian

To be more precise it was
https://wiki.debian.org/PlanetDebian?action=diff=49=48

https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

and last but not the least -

https://debconf.org/codeofconduct.shtml


Sorry, but no. I (with my anti-harassment team hat on and CC'ing 
antiharassment@ and planet@) provided an explanation to you of the 
action that the Planet Team took, and in my very first sentences I 
mentioned it's NSFW as you were already noting in your post. I added the 
links to that, as reference.




And somehow the debconf code of conduct became the over-riding factor.


This is *your* opinion. I think I clarified it enough in the mails that 
we exchanged.


The official policy of Debian is the Debian Code of Conduct:

https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

which is approved by the Debian Project in General Resolution, and it's 
linked in the Debian website homepage.





From the discussions it emerged or was shared (in private) that the

documents need to be evolved


No. I said:
"We may need to make evolve our different documents about conduct (that 
were born in different times) towards a global set of guidelines. This 
needs work and discussions and time."


Note the "we *may* need", and "this needs work and discussions and time".

 but there doesn't seem to be any

discussion about it in the public space and that I find frustrating
(or maybe I'm not looking at the right place/s and if so please
guide.)

I do find this part to be problematic -

"Try not to annoy people. While there is absolutely no requirement
that posts need to be about Debian, if there are a subset of posts
that are annoying a large number of people and generating many
complaints, you may be asked to consider providing a feed without the
posts in question. If you stay away from advertising content (or
content that might be confused as such) and from excessively personal
information, you should be fine."

Now while I have hinted that the material should be child or
family-friendly it still seems far from perfect.



Again, no. We noted that your post was NSFW. We said that as a "rule of 
thumb", if your content is ok for under-12, it's probably ok for posting 
in planet.



For any person it is very difficult to know what would or would not
annoy people. For instance the blog post I'm writing atm is about
'Fatalism' the idea or thought that some/few/many people have that
life is pre-ordained in full or in parts .

While my feed is still blocked, the specific blog post might or might
not annoy people.
If we are to talk only 'safe' topics then that would
serve as a good guide. Even if we are able to come with a list of
topics which are considered harmful or detrimental to the project even
that probably would be service to the project.



Or dis-service, I'm not sure. E.g., a recent related post that appeared 
in Planet:

https://grep.be/blog/en/retorts/Codes_of_Conduct/

And please note the *e.g.*. You may find different discussions out there 
about the topic, with different opinions.



Similarly, perhaps  the Debian Code of Conduct could do with some
child/family-friendly addition therein.

I have no idea whether debian-project is the right place to start this
discussion or some other mailing list/bug-report or some other way.



The Debian Code of Conduct was approved as a General Resolution. You can 
find more discussion about it here:


https://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_002

I guess that further changes to the Debian Code of Conduct may need to 
be approved in General Resolution as well. This needs time, discussions 
and work, as I noted before.


Personally I'm quite energy-drained in the last weeks (and couldn't find 
time to recharge my batteries yet) because of personal reasons unrelated 
to Debian (and some Debian work, I have to admit), and, with my 
anti-harassment team hat on, would prefer not to open this discussion 
right now, since I'm struggling even just for keeping myself up to date 
with inbox (I couldn't find time to read this whole thread in the middle 
of my day work).



I am no DD or DM so guess this is the only way I can raise the issue
and get some sort of equivalence in all three documents so they
speak/tell the same thing.


No, this was not the only way.

Personal note: I need to rest, for my personal physical and mental 
health and for feeling strong to help others too. I'm not burned out 
right now, but I don't want to arrive to that situation.


So I'll take 

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[alberto fuentes]

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 1:44 PM, Lars Wirzenius  wrote:

> In short, it's about Debian contributors, not just Debian. Based on my
> memory, it has always been that way.
>

I know the current (and past, since this is not the first time I argue
this) state of affairs :)

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Lars Wirzenius]

On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 01:30:19PM +0200, alberto fuentes wrote:
> It comes down to know if planet is about debian or about debian developers

From https://wiki.debian.org/PlanetDebian:

 What Can I Post On Planet?

 Planet Debian aims to aggregate the blog posts of people who are
 active in Debian and not only to aggregate the blog posts about
 Debian. The point is to provide a window into the community
 itself. Posts that are about Debian are a great idea and some
 people will choose to only syndicate "on topic" posts. But other
 posts are also welcome! We want to learn about the people, their
 life, opinions (even political) and doings.

In short, it's about Debian contributors, not just Debian. Based on my
memory, it has always been that way.

-- 
I want to build worthwhile things that might last. --joeyh


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Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[alberto fuentes]

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 6:58 AM, Russ Allbery  wrote:

> Separately, on the textual content... I'm not sure exactly the right way
> to phrase this advice, but I do think you use your blog to explore
> intensely personal philosophical questions.  I understand that you really
> want to explore those with other people in the project as well, but I can
> also see how it can be a little out of step with what others post there.
> I'm not really certain how much of a problem it is, but the piece of the
> Planet Debian policy that I would have pointed you at isn't the
> family-friendly bit, but the "excessively personal information" bit.
>

I would really like this point to come to a more concrete precise line,
even if the nature of it is to be a blurred one. This way you can still
decide how out of the (blurred-)line somebody is. The current 'try not to
annoy people' is weird and feels like it says 'try not to annoy the wrong
people'

It comes down to know if planet is about debian or about debian developers

My personal opinion is that it should be about debian, not about debian
developers. Random rants, specially cathartic ones slightly related to the
debian philosophy of life, should be curbed. And therefore, post about your
holidays or book reviews should be out of the question. Rants about debian
should be okay tho :)

Luckily only a handful of people step out of this line, so in practice is
not a problem. Specially by a beloved developer as Russ, which many people
like and which opinion in matters is important for many as well

Not having written rules about this makes other people say, why cant I as
well?

My other important point is that this is not about curbing people opinions
or exposure, its about not misusing a tool. We are people and many share
hobbies and ideas about life. But there are other spaces to share this
content on the internet. If I want to see cat pictures I go to a cat
pictures website which are galore. I dont need somebody to share their cat
pictures in planet debian

For many, debian is full of friends, so sharing with planet debian feels
like sharing with friends. But the reality is that there are many people
reading the feed. Many more than your inner circle of friends in debian

Luckily, most people realize this and only share their posts tagged with
debian

When the line about being related to debian is dubious, think, how many
people would opt-in to this kind of posts if i made a separate feed? That
should self-clarify if it belongs to the planet

Im sure this has been discussed ad nauseum (Debian style) and I just took
the opportunity now that somebody else brought it up. Im just a small
contributor... I dont contribute near as much as somebody like Russ, so I
feel little out of line saying this. But take it just as my opinion on the
subject and nothing more :)

I have a small blog as well with a couple of posts about debian, but I
still dont think it is useful enough to waste so many peoples time by
aggregating it to the planet

Cheers!

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Enrico Zini]

On Wed, Apr 05, 2017 at 07:19:04PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:

> now in the PlanetDebian wiki page added with the above revision is, if
> true, quite significant.  If that is Planet Debian policy, I'll switch my
> aggregation feed for planet.debian.org over to only posts I explicitly tag
> with Debian, which will mean removing nearly all of my posts.
[...]
> (I'm also pretty mystified about the application of Debconf's code of
> conduct to Planet Debian, if that is indeed something being considered.  I
> would treat those very differently; content that's acceptable as words on
> the Internet may be entirely out of line in an environment where children
> are physically present, and I would always check the audience and
> environment before discussing sexuality in person at a conference.
> On-line communication is far different because there's no way to check the
> audience; once it's on-line, anyone on the Internet may be reading it.)

I fully agree. My understanding is that shirish was pointed to several
resources including the DebConf CoC when his feed was removed from
Planed Debian, and as a consequence he added the link to the
PlanetDebian wiki, for the benefit of others who could be in a similar
position.

I would guess that the link was sent with good intentions as a possibly
useful resource, rather than as a policy to follow. I am afraid that
this could result in the DebConf CoC accidentally becoming policy for
Planet Debian, and I'm glad shirish raised the issue explicitly.

My blog also has content that some might not find appropriate for 12
year olds (mostly here http://www.enricozini.org/tags/life/) and the
English posts of it generally end up in Planet Debian.


On Wed, Apr 05, 2017 at 09:58:49PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:

> I think "safe for work" is a much easier-to-apply and less-fraught policy
> than "safe for anyone over the age of 12."  In particular, "safe for work"
> emphasizes the problems with open offices, easily-seen screens, and people
> reading over your shoulder, and therefore correctly emphasizes the
> problems with *visual* content.

Indeed. I would remove the reference to the DebConf CoC from the Planet
Debian wiki page, and replace it with some pointer about trying to make
posts safe for work. I'd like it not to be about what topics one talks
about, but rather about how to pay attention when chosing very visible
parts like titles or images.


> Everyone posts some of that from time to time, and some of it isn't a big
> deal.  I've certainly posted some of it, and no one really minds.  But I
> think the key bit is *occasionally*.  As part of a mix of a variety of
> other content, I don't think anyone is going to object, but if your blog
> is *mostly* extended philosophical musings, particularly long ones
> (because again Planet Debian expands everything in-line), I'm not horribly
> surprised that a few people might start complaining.  Whether those
> complaints should warrant a change is kind of a hard question, and I'm not
> quite sure what to feel (I really value the diversity of human experience
> in the project), but you might want to consider whether there are some
> merits to dialing it back a bit, at least in the content you syndicate to
> Planet Debian.

I personally skip most of shirish' posts because I usaully don't have
the energy to read them. When I do have the energy to read them, I tend
to find them between interesting and adorable, and that included the
article in question.

I agree with the suggestiong of dialing it back a bit from a content
optimization point of view ("if you want to please your audience the
most, you could…"), and I would disagree with that suggestion if it came
from a policy point of view ("do this or your feed will get removed").

There are many more posts I regularly skip[1], but I wouldn't ask for
their feeds to be removed from Planet Debian. At most, I would rant
about them to a close circle of friends, in those rare cases when we'd
have nothing better to talk about.

I'd like to see shirish' feed being syndicated again in Planet Debian,
and I understand he'd like to make sure he's not doing harm with his
posts.

I know people complained about that post, but I don't know anything else
about their complaint: were they generically policing? Did they get into
trouble? Did they get tired of shirish' posts? Did they get triggered
and had a really bad day coping with past traumas? I also don't think I
should know, as I don't think there's value in exposing complaints to
public scrutiny.

I don't see any use in pattern matching shirish' post against bullet
points in a Code of Conduct. We could read everything carefully and
argue whether each paragraph complied or not with each point, and in so
doing we would completely ignore the existance of a person who might
have been hurt, and how to really not get them hurt again.

Also, almost any post can be NSFW for some values of Work. For example,
I know there are workplaces where talking about Free 

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Lars Wirzenius]

The meta issue here is who decides policy for Planet Debian, and how
that is done. This is important for the current case as well: the
controversial blog post is dates March 30, the change to require
suitability for 12-year-olds is from March 31, and the wiki change was
made by the author of the blog post. I'm not aware of any public
discussion of the change, before the change happened, but perhaps I've
just found it.

I admit I have a hard time trusting a policy defined in a wiki page
that anyone can change.

It seems quite weird to me to apply the DebConf Code of Conduct to
Planet Debian. I don't who said what to whom, when, or how, to make
that be the conclusion. It would be good, I think, to have policy
discssions on public mailing lists.

I don't currently have a comment on the suitability for Planet Debian
of the post in question. Russ raises excellent points.

-- 
I want to build worthwhile things that might last. --joeyh


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Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Russ Allbery]

shirish शिरीष  writes:

> Please CC me as I'm not subscribed to the mailing list. Please excuse
> the non-brievity of the mail.

> Couple of weeks back, I put up a blog post
> https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/2017/03/30/the-tale-of-the-dancing-girl-nsfw/

Okay, I've now thought about this some more and looked over that post in
some detail, so a few more comments, separate from my serious concerns
about the (I suspect unintended) implications of the Planet Debian content
policy change.

(Cultural note: Those of us in the US get pretty paranoid about content
rules that involve what parents think is or isn't appropriate for
twelve-year-old kids, since there are large and well-organized parent
groups in the US that think upwards of 90% of world literature should be
absolutely off-limits to twelve-year-old kids.)

Shirish, if you felt like you should put a NSFW tag on a post, please
don't post it to Planet Debian.  I think "safe for work" is an entirely
reasonable (and reasonably expected) content policy, if for no other
reason than we, as a project, want people to be able to read Planet Debian
at work.

If it helps, think of it this way: it's not about offense to other project
members directly.  It's about getting fellow project members *in trouble*.
A lot of employers have absolutely zero sense of humor about this sort of
thing.

I think "safe for work" is a much easier-to-apply and less-fraught policy
than "safe for anyone over the age of 12."  In particular, "safe for work"
emphasizes the problems with open offices, easily-seen screens, and people
reading over your shoulder, and therefore correctly emphasizes the
problems with *visual* content.  The *textual* content of your post is not
necessarily a problem (more on that in a minute); the photo of a lap
dance, while not particularly explicit if one doesn't have the context,
still is.  That's going to be a problem in a lot of office environments.
I think it's still kind of borderline since everyone in the image is
basically clothed, but it's the sort of border that doesn't really need to
be approached.

Images from Wikipedia are *not* necessarily safe for work.  There are
absolutely Wikipedia articles that I would not browse through at work, and
I work in California tech, which is *extremely* relaxed about this sort of
thing compared to a lot of other industries.

If you want to post such things anyway, you can also make things safe for
work by clearly disclaiming them *and then making sure the content isn't
shown without explicit action*.  For instance, I think it would have been
entirely fine by that standard for you to syndicate a *link* to your blog
post on Planet Debian.  But that aggregator expands posts fully in-line on
the site, including all images, so any images you put in a post are "above
the fold," and need to pass that safe for work bar.

Separately, on the textual content... I'm not sure exactly the right way
to phrase this advice, but I do think you use your blog to explore
intensely personal philosophical questions.  I understand that you really
want to explore those with other people in the project as well, but I can
also see how it can be a little out of step with what others post there.
I'm not really certain how much of a problem it is, but the piece of the
Planet Debian policy that I would have pointed you at isn't the
family-friendly bit, but the "excessively personal information" bit.

Everyone posts some of that from time to time, and some of it isn't a big
deal.  I've certainly posted some of it, and no one really minds.  But I
think the key bit is *occasionally*.  As part of a mix of a variety of
other content, I don't think anyone is going to object, but if your blog
is *mostly* extended philosophical musings, particularly long ones
(because again Planet Debian expands everything in-line), I'm not horribly
surprised that a few people might start complaining.  Whether those
complaints should warrant a change is kind of a hard question, and I'm not
quite sure what to feel (I really value the diversity of human experience
in the project), but you might want to consider whether there are some
merits to dialing it back a bit, at least in the content you syndicate to
Planet Debian.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Russ Allbery]

shirish शिरीष  writes:

> Please CC me as I'm not subscribed to the mailing list. Please excuse
> the non-brievity of the mail.

> Couple of weeks back, I put up a blog post
> https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/2017/03/30/the-tale-of-the-dancing-girl-nsfw/

> Because the subject matter is mature and uncomfortable to many people
> my feed was turned off.

> In response I was given/shared three documents/links  -

> https://wiki.debian.org/PlanetDebian

> To be more precise it was
> https://wiki.debian.org/PlanetDebian?action=diff=49=48

Per the follow-up message, I don't have the full context on your post or
why your feed was turned off, and therefore don't really want to address
that directly.  However, the statement:

The content should be such that it is suitable for people over 12
years of age.

now in the PlanetDebian wiki page added with the above revision is, if
true, quite significant.  If that is Planet Debian policy, I'll switch my
aggregation feed for planet.debian.org over to only posts I explicitly tag
with Debian, which will mean removing nearly all of my posts.

A lot of people have very different ideas about what is and isn't
appropriate for people above 12 years old.  I currently aggregate my
entire journal there at the specific request of other Planet Debian
readers in a previous discussion here after a question about whether
people wanted to see my book reviews.  But I have no intention to get into
the murky territory of whether my book reviews are always appropriate for
anyone over the age of 12.  I read a wide variety of different things, I
review books with significant sexual themes, and I do not promise to never
review erotica.  I review essentially everything I read, since that's the
whole point of my book review site for me, and I'm an adult who reads
books aimed at adults that may or may not be appropriate for a
12-year-old.

These reviews have always been something I just put on the Internet for
anyone to take or leave, no expectations or requirements on my side.  I
will always make an effort to avoid posting content that is racist,
sexist, bigoted, or otherwise easily understandable as attacks on the
existence or legitimacy of certain people.  But I'm not going to
second-guess what I post to it in the area of sexuality; I have strong
personal objections to that form of content filtering, and I do not
believe discussing sexuality in the sort of objective way that I would in
a book review is something that should, or does, fail Debian's code of
conduct.

If I'm out of step on that and it's not welcome content on Planet Debian,
I'm happy to remove it.

(I'm also pretty mystified about the application of Debconf's code of
conduct to Planet Debian, if that is indeed something being considered.  I
would treat those very differently; content that's acceptable as words on
the Internet may be entirely out of line in an environment where children
are physically present, and I would always check the audience and
environment before discussing sexuality in person at a conference.
On-line communication is far different because there's no way to check the
audience; once it's on-line, anyone on the Internet may be reading it.)

Anyway, I know that so far this is just one post and I'm missing a ton of
context here, and I'm not going to do anything rash or rush to judgement.
I just wanted to make sure anyone considering this is aware of the above
and the implications of the implied policy change of this edit to the
Planet Debian wiki.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[shirish शिरीष]

addition at bottom :-

On 06/04/2017, shirish शिरीष  wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Please CC me as I'm not subscribed to the mailing list. Please excuse
> the non-brievity of the mail.
>
> Couple of weeks back, I put up a blog post
> https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/2017/03/30/the-tale-of-the-dancing-girl-nsfw/
>
> Because the subject matter is mature and uncomfortable to many people
> my feed was turned off.
>
> In response I was given/shared three documents/links  -
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/PlanetDebian
>
> To be more precise it was
> https://wiki.debian.org/PlanetDebian?action=diff=49=48
>
> https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
>
> and last but not the least -
>
> https://debconf.org/codeofconduct.shtml
>
> And somehow the debconf code of conduct became the over-riding factor.
>
> From the discussions it emerged or was shared (in private) that the
> documents need to be evolved but there doesn't seem to be any
> discussion about it in the public space and that I find frustrating
> (or maybe I'm not looking at the right place/s and if so please
> guide.)
>
> I do find this part to be problematic -
>
> "Try not to annoy people. While there is absolutely no requirement
> that posts need to be about Debian, if there are a subset of posts
> that are annoying a large number of people and generating many
> complaints, you may be asked to consider providing a feed without the
> posts in question. If you stay away from advertising content (or
> content that might be confused as such) and from excessively personal
> information, you should be fine."
>
> Now while I have hinted that the material should be child or
> family-friendly it still seems far from perfect.
>
> For any person it is very difficult to know what would or would not
> annoy people. For instance the blog post I'm writing atm is about
> 'Fatalism' the idea or thought that some/few/many people have that
> life is pre-ordained in full or in parts .
>
> While my feed is still blocked, the specific blog post might or might
> not annoy people. If we are to talk only 'safe' topics then that would
> serve as a good guide. Even if we are able to come with a list of
> topics which are considered harmful or detrimental to the project even
> that probably would be service to the project.
>
> Similarly, perhaps  the Debian Code of Conduct could do with some
> child/family-friendly addition therein.
>
> I have no idea whether debian-project is the right place to start this
> discussion or some other mailing list/bug-report or some other way.
>
> I am no DD or DM so guess this is the only way I can raise the issue
> and get some sort of equivalence in all three documents so they
> speak/tell the same thing.
>
> Looking forward for guidance.
> --
>   Regards,
>   Shirish Agarwal  शिरीष अग्रवाल
>   My quotes in this email licensed under CC 3.0
> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/
> http://flossexperiences.wordpress.com
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I have been told that I am/was fast and on reflection found they are
right. I was also told I should at least give them a week or more as
people need time to formulate replies. Hence, in order to be fair to
them, let us give them 2 weeks i.e. 20th April 2017 to at least up
with some response.

At the same time, let me also point out that the wiki document is also
incomplete on the topic of conflict resolution or what people should
do once they find they have done a mistake, how to make amends ?

Meanwhile, people could put their 2 bits at
https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/2017/04/06/the-fatalistic-attitude/
especially if you disagree with my point of view. I welcome all and
any criticism.

-- 
  Regards,
  Shirish Agarwal  शिरीष अग्रवाल
  My quotes in this email licensed under CC 3.0
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