Re: Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
The other page evolved with the knee jerk reaction of the other party to hit, and the terror methods of one Chealer who believed himself master of the wiki. I didn't believe myself master of the wiki. If you think that I've done something wrong on the wiki, I recommend that you let me know directly, rather than whining about it here. If I don't understand what you're reproaching to me, others won't neither. And by the way, if you find the time to send over 50 mails to debian-project in 3 days, perhaps you could find some to answer the question you were asked over one month ago on the discussion page about your set of pages? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 11:05:00PM +0200, Sam Hocevar wrote: On Sun, May 27, 2007, Sven Luther wrote: I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be publicly addressed. Sven, first of all, please restrict your postings to debian-project, Notice that except two posts which where on-topic in their respective forums, i stayed on debian-project, and it was other folk who branched the thread elsewhere. Please inform yourself before making claims like this, and spreading falsehood and calumny. (which was maybe not your intent, but you should have checked). Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther wrote: I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be publicly addressed. Sven, first of all, please restrict your postings to debian-project, Whyever should i do that ? Because Sam asked you? So, if you keep threatening me, like you just did, this only enourages me to continue, and escalate the issue. Oh my! It is not yet escalated? So, i ask you again as DPL, do something so that the agression and iniquity debian has shown me since a year is stopped, and we can all stop this. The aggression has been stopped. Nobody showed aggression and removed your account on the kernel team. It was an accident and it has been corrected since them. No aggression except yours. This is as easy as a public pronounsement on debian's part that it has erred in the way it has handled this matter, that i am not the sole responsible of it, and a lifting of the unjust sanctions against me. Sven, this will not happen. Learn to live with that. (not the d-i related ones, since we all know the d-i leadership are arrogant bastards who are not emotionally equipped to recognize they maybe share the fault and do the right thing). People who are emotionally stable won't say this about others... Regards, Joey -- Never trust an operating system you don't have source for! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007, Sven Luther wrote: then so be it, debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour will only hurt the project again one way or another, and should not be encouraged. These are words of pure wisdom, thank you. Empathy would be the next step to enlightenment. Kind regards, -- Sam. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:00:31AM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be publicly addressed. Sven, first of all, please restrict your postings to debian-project, Whyever should i do that ? Because Sam asked you? Yeah, right, but i asked him that he sets up a delegation to solve this mess over a month ago. I also asked frans to please forget pride and old grudge and let's all work together nicely. Asking doesn't mean the other have to comply, nor is asking showing you are right. But then, i did in fact restrict my postings to debian-project, it was others who branched it out without me noticing. So, if you keep threatening me, like you just did, this only enourages me to continue, and escalate the issue. Oh my! It is not yet escalated? Indeed, it has escalated, but it is about to escalate further. How sad, that Debian choses the way of oppression and escalation, incolving orders of magnitude more effort, than trying to be fair and decent instead. So, i ask you again as DPL, do something so that the agression and iniquity debian has shown me since a year is stopped, and we can all stop this. The aggression has been stopped. Nobody showed aggression and removed your account on the kernel team. It was an accident and it has been corrected since them. No aggression except yours. The agression has not been stopped, i am still unfairly suspended from debian. This is as easy as a public pronounsement on debian's part that it has erred in the way it has handled this matter, that i am not the sole responsible of it, and a lifting of the unjust sanctions against me. Sven, this will not happen. Learn to live with that. Why not ? This is the crux of the question. If you can give me an explanation of why this cannot happen, one that don't make you want to puke that is, then we can speak. (not the d-i related ones, since we all know the d-i leadership are arrogant bastards who are not emotionally equipped to recognize they maybe share the fault and do the right thing). People who are emotionally stable won't say this about others... As opposed to people who have been harrased and hurt for over a year, right ? The facts remain though, i would be very glad to be proven wrong, but the last year has showed me otherwise, and it is by direct action of those guys, that they decided to ask for my expulsion *BECAUSE I DARED PRESENT MYSELF AS DPL CANDIDATE*. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, 29 May 2007, Sven Luther wrote: i guess that the DPL position corrupts one after all :( Sven, I really fail to understand in how far you think you will change the situation if you blur your instance with wild guesses. Kind regards Andreas. PS: This is my only posting in this thread. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 11:05:00PM +0200, Sam Hocevar wrote: On Sun, May 27, 2007, Sven Luther wrote: I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be publicly addressed. Sven, first of all, please restrict your postings to debian-project, ideally to specific threads as I already suggested some time ago. It is awfully complicated to follow what it is exactly you are requesting, and you are annoying everyone. If you do not stop spamming the lists I will support any proposal to remove you from the lists before even looking at your requests, because listening to you while you keep being a nuisance would make me look like a supporter of spam, trolls and general chaos and I certainly don't want to be associated with such things. Sam, ... If you propose me a real schedule, and a way to solve this mess, then i will stop all mails about this topic. Upto now, i have not seen any will to do anything but maintain the status-quo, and i went to you privately a few weeks ago. I have made various proposals in the other thread, since the begining of this mess i made various reasonable proposals, starting from the first which involved only d-i : - i am given the svn commit access back, and will use it to work silently about those areas nobody else is working on and which interest me (prep and apus support on powerpc). - i refrain from posting on debian-boot. (well, from memory, but this was the gist of it). Then i made the wiki page, on advice from folk on #debian-devel i asked for help, and so on. The solution to the current mess is easy enough, and starts by a few facts : - we are in what can only be called a personal dispute between me and a few other DDs. It is a personal dispute, which happened because Frans felt i didn't respect him enough, and (ab)used his technical power instead of trying to speak to me. - i made numerous attempts at conciliation, am generally a nice guy, and want this solved. - the other party, who has so many reproaches, some of them even true, has never tried speaking to me, and has rejected any apertures or conciliation attempts i proposed, but instead used the system to get their way. - the many previous dealings had a feel of secrecy, of shady dealings, of FUD and lobbying, which is not helpful to solve this issue. Furthermore, for whatever reason it tried to solve the issue by brute force instead of discussion. - two proposals to solve this in RL, where ignored. I guess there is little doubt about these facts, but if someone contests, i would be happy to have actual discussion about them, instead of people chosing to ignore them, and go into a caloumny and provocation campaign against me to hide the truth on it. Now, what can be done ? A true mediation (i know that it is not possible between frans and me, at this time, despite my many efforts, but there is a mediation needed between me and debian here), will clearly list what is reproached to each other, hear each others claims, and work on that to reach an acceptable middle range. My claims : - Debian has handled this issue unfairly, and has acted in a way that was partly responsible for this mess. - Debian has resorted to shady dealings, and dealt unjustified (and plain stupid) punishment, who only served to worsen the issue. - Assorted folk have used caloumny and lies, plain FUD if you prefer, to discredit me, because they knew their position would be untenable otherwise. - The current expulsion process is evil, it calls for a FUD and caloumny campaign, and leaves two persons (the DAMs) sole responsible, which is hardly fair to them, since they are neither formed nor experimented in this kind of issues. My responsability : - I admit that the d-i team don't want to deal with me, too bad for debian and them. - Once this issue is finally solved, it will no more be a problem, and i will not mention it again. - I present my sincerest apologies for all the innocent bystanders, but for all those who would critic me, i welcome any insight of how this could have been dealt with otherwise, i know i did not find any, despite asking for counsel on #debian-devel and otherwise. There are more we could say, but we can go into this once there is a will on Debian's part to actually do the right thing, instead of going the way of oppression and menace, which is the way apparently chosen here. So, please, show courage, honestity and fairness, and let's try for a resolution of this issue which will all make us proud, instead of what we have seen upto now. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:14:23AM +0200, Sam Hocevar wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007, Sven Luther wrote: then so be it, debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour will only hurt the project again one way or another, and should not be encouraged. These are words of pure wisdom, thank you. Empathy would be the next step to enlightenment. Sam, what do you mean by that ? Debian is better off without you. Your behaviour has been a problem for the project in the past, is one currently and will be a problem in the future. As you correctly pointed out, such behaviour should not be encouraged and the responsible person(s) should be removed from the project. So please, go away. Marc -- BOFH #308: CD-ROM server needs recalibration pgpksMjBJMDzh.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007, Sven Luther wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:14:23AM +0200, Sam Hocevar wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007, Sven Luther wrote: then so be it, debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour will only hurt the project again one way or another, and should not be encouraged. These are words of pure wisdom, thank you. Empathy would be the next step to enlightenment. Sam, what do you mean by that ? Can we stop playing with words and come to a resolution of this ? I have another longer mail in the pipe, please read it *AND ACTUALLY REPLY TO THE POINTS I RAISE*. I mean by that exactly what I wrote. It's not a play on words. 1. You are *absolutely right* in that Debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour will only hurt the project. There is no questioning in that. Whatever the situation, whoever the people, Debian would be better off *without* people who only hurt the project. 2. You lack empathy. Empathy (« empathie » in French) is the ability to feel what other people can feel and think. It's not an on/off ability, it varies with people, with experience, with will, but you really don't have much of it, are aren't willing to use it. 3. If you managed to acquire empathy, you would reach enlightenment. You would understand what others are thinking of your behaviour, and why they are thinking so. You would understand how spamming the lists hurts Debian, how calling third parties bastards hurts Debian. You would understand why your very statement that Debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour will only hurt the project applies exactly to you. And you would be enlightened. As the DPL I want happiness for developers, prosperity for the project and justice in the community. But you are not asking for justice, you are asking for revenge and retalation. And as long as I am the project leader there shall be no revenge or retalation, and you had better accept it. You do not undo harm by harming even more. Your access to the kernel repository has been reinstated and you can be sure that it will never be mistakenly or deliberately removed again without a reason. This is justice: the harm was undone, you have aquired an additional level of protection, and no measures were taken against your disruptive behaviour. Everyone can now happily stop posting in this thread and go back to work. Regards, -- Sam. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:13:02PM +0200, Sam Hocevar wrote: But you are not asking for justice, you are asking for revenge and retalation. And as long as I am the project leader there shall be no revenge or retalation, and you had better accept it. You do not undo harm by harming even more. You are spreading FUD, this is the second time in this thread, whic saddens me strongly. Please see Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your access to the kernel repository has been reinstated and you can be sure that it will never be mistakenly or deliberately removed again Partially restored, i used to be kernel team admin, but that is not the point. without a reason. This is justice: the harm was undone, you have aquired an additional level of protection, and no measures were taken against your disruptive behaviour. Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a whole. I ask you (you as DPL, you as Debian, you as individual DDs) to undo the harm done since over a year now too. Everyone can now happily stop posting in this thread and go back to work. No, we cannot, because the problem is not solved, because the DAMs decision was a stupid and unfair one, not even speaking of its irregularity and lack of transparence. So, read : Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and reply to its substance. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 12:46:00PM +0200, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote: Debian is better off without you. Your behaviour has been a problem for the project in the past, is one currently and will be a problem in the future. Mark, ... That's not my name. How can you say that Debian will be better off without me ? My behaviour as you call it, as been nothing but a reaction to what was done to me. Let's see. Imagine I would be actually insulted by your repeated misspelling of my name and would come to your house, hit you, burn a few things you own and then go away again. If anyone would try to punish me, I would simply say Hey, he started it, it was just a reaction! You might see there's a problem in this scenario: The reaction is in *no way* proportional to the initial action. And that's exactly what one sees when one is looking at your behaviour in the past few months. Sven, go away, please. You have insulted and frustrated too many project members by now. There is no way you will ever get to be a part of Debian again. Marc -- BOFH #180: ether leak pgpH7LWFyb1so.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:23:27PM +0200, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote: Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 12:46:00PM +0200, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote: Debian is better off without you. Your behaviour has been a problem for the project in the past, is one currently and will be a problem in the future. Mark, ... That's not my name. Sorry for that, Marc, ... How can you say that Debian will be better off without me ? My behaviour as you call it, as been nothing but a reaction to what was done to me. Let's see. Imagine I would be actually insulted by your repeated misspelling of my name and would come to your house, hit you, burn a few things you own and then go away again. If anyone would try to punish me, I would simply say Hey, he started it, it was just a reaction! There is a strong difference though. You point my mistake out to me, i recognize it and apologize, the problem is solved. In this case, even while nobody really denies that the fault are shared, and that this is not a black and white situation, i get told that first you are to recognize that all fault is yours (from Raphael Hertzog, Frans Pop and Anthony Towns, then DPL, maybe others i have forgotten). Furthermore, when i try to work with the unfair punishement (i submitted around 30 patches to the d-i BTS while my commit was removed, as documented in the wiki page, i self-enforced the email ban in january/february), those guys come over and repeatedly beat me. Error is human, but persistance in ones fault is evil (or bad or whatever). You could argue that my repeatedingly making a fuss about this on the mailing lists is a sign of persistance, but i recognize it is not the best solution, but i sincerely don't see how else i could act in this, do you have a suggestion ? And no, be meek and accept everything is not an option, and try to ignore it and work despite it has not worked, so ... You might see there's a problem in this scenario: The reaction is in *no way* proportional to the initial action. And that's exactly what one sees when one is looking at your behaviour in the past few months. Yes, please, let's look at my behaviour these past few months. Since let's say november or so, when Fabio decided to mediate. I had email burst out in the following cases : - suddenly Fabio decides to ban me from the lists, while there was nothing but a single rather short irc exchange with Manoj to justify it. - suddenly, people ask for my expulsion again, while i respected the self-ban, but they disliked me candidating as DPL. - the DAMs chose to make a judgement which is more like a FUD and caloumny campaign, listing all the insults and accusations the other party has made, without even checking which part of it are plain lies, and without being transparent about the irregularities of the procedure they themeslves have set up. They furthermore take a long long time to actually come to a decision. - suddenly i discover my kernel svn access was removed, and when asking nicely the alioth admins, they make sure issues escalate, instead of quickly giving the answer. The response may have been disproportionated, but if you look at the long run, i am not sure this is the case, furthermore, i did nothing but post a few mail, *AND THEN ENGAGE IN OPEN AND PUBLIC CONVERSATION WITH THOSE WHO CHOSE TO SPEAK WITH ME*. Is this condenable ? I have some doubts. Sven, go away, please. You have insulted and frustrated too many project members by now. There is no way you will ever get to be a part of Debian again. Why not ? because they fear to look in the mirror and tell themselves, that maybe sven was right in some part of those points, and maybe we should have acted differently back then ? But it is perfectly ok for me to be insulted and frustrated, and even gone beyond words and punished ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther wrote: Partially restored, i used to be kernel team admin, but that is not the point. If it's not the point, don't mention it so often. Thanks. Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough. More mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you. You should accept this. Regards, Joey -- Never trust an operating system you don't have source for! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:40:55PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough. More mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you. You should accept this. Then what will change it ? what do you propose ? I made various proposals to the DPL, or to others in conversation outside those threads i am decryied for, where did they go ? And no, accept your fate meekly and be silent, is not an acceptable resolution of this problem. I even proposed that this situtation be used as an experiment by debian, in order to setup an infrastructure to be able to solve future problems before they go out of hand. I proposed an in RL meeting at FOSDEM, i did so around november, so 3-4 month before the fact, so if there had been a real will to it, it could have been solved. But what did i got, the first day of FOSDEM the DAMs sent me the expulsion letter, and James Troup to whom i spoke the next day didn't even mention it to me. So, what is the solution, i ask you, do you see some way out of this ? I am all ears, ... Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
* Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070529 13:58]: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:40:55PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough. More mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you. You should accept this. Then what will change it ? Just leave Debian. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:07:06PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070529 13:58]: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:40:55PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough. More mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you. You should accept this. Then what will change it ? Just leave Debian. Why should i ? Just because debian is unable tyo recognize it has behaved badly in this matter, and make amends ? It is so easy to solve this issue in an honourable way, so easy, and i have been asking for an honourable and fair solution since over a year now. Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money and time and equipement i have given to debian ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:40:55PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough. More mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you. You should accept this. Then what will change it ? Nothing. what do you propose ? That you accept it. And no, accept your fate meekly and be silent, is not an acceptable resolution of this problem. Then you are doomed. And Debian is doomed as long as you're bringing this up again and again. I even proposed that this situtation be used as an experiment by debian, in order to setup an infrastructure to be able to solve future problems before they go out of hand. Maybe we should declare this as an experiment and be done with it? Worked for another issue as well. Regards, Joey -- Never trust an operating system you don't have source for! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
* Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money and time and equipement i have given to debian ? Funny thing about volunteers.. They tend to give their time willingly without getting things in return. That's kind of the point. If you're not willing to volunteer, then don't. Doing volunteer work and then expecting to be paid for it doesn't exactly fly too well with the people organizing the work, especially when they're volunteers themselves. For that matter, it comes across pretty poorly to damn near everyone I know. Enjoy, Stephen signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther wrote: Just leave Debian. Why should i ? Just because debian is unable tyo recognize it has behaved badly in this matter, and make amends ? Yes. Obviously the Debian project isn't worthy of your contributions. Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money and time and equipement i have given to debian ? No one will ever give it back. That's the point of *giving* to a volunteer project. -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:12:19PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:07:06PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070529 13:58]: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:40:55PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough. More mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you. You should accept this. Then what will change it ? Just leave Debian. Why should i ? Just because debian is unable tyo recognize it has behaved badly in this matter, and make amends ? It is so easy to solve this issue in an honourable way, so easy, and i have been asking for an honourable and fair solution since over a year now. Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money and time and equipement i have given to debian ? So leave and sue. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
* Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070529 13:57]: So, what is the solution, i ask you, do you see some way out of this ? I am all ears, ... i proposed a solution to you that would let you work on what you like and took care of the social complications. but that approach did not fit your own idea of solution, so you never even considered it seriously. you destroy the basis for further cooperation and alternative solutions in the meantime. I am sorry to see it happen. /andreas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:27:07AM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: * Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money and time and equipement i have given to debian ? Funny thing about volunteers.. They tend to give their time willingly without getting things in return. That's kind of the point. If you're I actually did get something in return, pain and hurt and rejection. If i had gotten nothing in return, i would be happily coding for the best of debian, and we would all be happy. That is the problem. not willing to volunteer, then don't. Doing volunteer work and then expecting to be paid for it doesn't exactly fly too well with the people organizing the work, especially when they're volunteers themselves. For that matter, it comes across pretty poorly to damn near everyone I know. Well, i am sure no volunteers likes freely giving their time, and be handled like shit afterward, i know it happens in many volunteer organisation. The point is, there is no reason for me to leave debian, i still have much to contribute, there is no reason to not search a resolution to this issue, which is easy and not time consuming, and could be done easily enough if all party put their pride and arrogance aside, and say : Well, we acted badly, but the faults are shared, let's forget past hurts, and try positively to work together again. Is this so much to ask debian ? Really ? As an example of why this is a mess : 14:27:44 Ganneff svenl: would you *ever* consider something as valid way out thats not 100% what you want, ie you all admit you have been wrong? How funny, since This is exactly the discourse that Anthyony Towns, Frans Pop and Raphael Hertzof held to me : you must first admit that everything is your fault. What is wrong in being a bit more humble, and recognizing that the fault is shared, and that if everyone involved showed a bit of good will, then it would be solved in no time. Show me a sign, and i will jump on it, and we will all be back to happily coding, but upto now, all my tentatives of going another way have been cruel deceptions, and the trust i had in debian has been wronged, and i have seen no real sign of anybody searching a resolution. So, i repeat, let's solve this issue in a fair and honest way, and everyone will be happy. Is this too much to ask ? Apparently so ... Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:22:29PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:40:55PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough. More mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you. You should accept this. Then what will change it ? Nothing. what do you propose ? That you accept it. And no, accept your fate meekly and be silent, is not an acceptable resolution of this problem. Then you are doomed. And Debian is doomed as long as you're bringing this up again and again. Indeed. May i ask you why there is no other solution ? What is it that makes it a total heresy to even propose we try to solve it fairly and honourably ? I even proposed that this situtation be used as an experiment by debian, in order to setup an infrastructure to be able to solve future problems before they go out of hand. Maybe we should declare this as an experiment and be done with it? Worked for another issue as well. Yeah, right, but we can have a positive experiment, where we set up a way to solve social problems in the future. Let's try to better debian, and solve all the pain and frustration that it has caused to so many (not only me and not only this matter) in the past. As the new DPL said, i am hardly the only social problem in debian right now, even if i am the most vocal one. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:27:20PM +0200, Andreas Schuldei wrote: * Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070529 13:57]: So, what is the solution, i ask you, do you see some way out of this ? I am all ears, ... i proposed a solution to you that would let you work on what you like and took care of the social complications. but that approach did not fit your own idea of solution, so you never even considered it seriously. you destroy the basis for further cooperation and alternative solutions in the meantime. Erm, notice that i did that various times, and i was indeed doing it now, when i noticed the same agression. Just as over a year ago, i was happily investigating some powerpc d-i breakage when i noticed over a month later what the d-i team had silently done to me. I also did this during january/february, with the result of an expulsion procedure being called against me, just because i dared present myself as DPL, while i had not posted a single mail to the lists in over a month. I am sorry to see it happen. Sure, but it was unavoidable. This is a too deep wound, and it will never heal, as long as the root of the problem is not handled first, and a resolution to it can be found which will put the basis of of real healing. I did come to two persons, you and wouter, asking that you participated in a renewed mediation of this issue. I did so after various weeks of relative silence, so as to let the original DAMs puinishement out of the issue, but Wouter said he didn't believe a mediation was possible because frans would not hear him, and you weren't also overly interested. for a new mediation to happen, we need to find people who are trustworthy and honourable, and which can be accepted by both party. This is saddly rather difficult to find in debian, don't you think. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007, Sven Luther wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:13:02PM +0200, Sam Hocevar wrote: But you are not asking for justice, you are asking for revenge and retalation. And as long as I am the project leader there shall be no revenge or retalation, and you had better accept it. You do not undo harm by harming even more. You are spreading FUD, this is the second time in this thread, whic saddens me strongly. If one looks at the subject of the thread, it appears that you are asking the DPL to take action at whoever removed you from the kernel team at alioth. This is asking for retaliation. I will look at your other concerns and decide what I can do. But as I said, as long as I am the project leader there will be no retaliation, so try again in May 2008. Regards, -- Sam. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther wrote: May i ask you why there is no other solution ? What is it that makes it a total heresy to even propose we try to solve it fairly and honourably ? Because what you would accept is not acceptable for Frans and what Frans accepts is very obviously not acceptable to you. Thus, live with it and enjoy life without trying the impossible. Regards, Joey -- Never trust an operating system you don't have source for! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 03:35:35PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: May i ask you why there is no other solution ? What is it that makes it a total heresy to even propose we try to solve it fairly and honourably ? Because what you would accept is not acceptable for Frans and what Frans accepts is very obviously not acceptable to you. Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ? Even though my DPL candidacy had nothing to do with him, but rather because i saw problems in debian and, as i was told by astronut, candidating as DPL was a way to do something about it. Did they fear so much an honest DPL campaign, and what the result of the vote would have been ? So, just because Frans feels pissed and that i am not respectful enough to him, i should be punished with a year of debian suspension ? I repeat myself again, i don't care about Frans, he can be a self-centered bully in his corner, and refuse anyone who is not respectful enough to play with him, find with me, but he should leave me alone, and not go into this provocation of me he has done, nor jump on the most minor of issues. So, i ask that the suspension be lifted, that debian finally admits that it has handled this issue unfairly, that more than one party was at fault, and notes that i have made many conciliation attempts which where rejected by frans. And that's it, the issue will be forgotten, and everyone is back to happily coding ever after. Is this so much to ask ? I ask this not of you, but of Debian, of you Joey, of all other readers. Thus, live with it and enjoy life without trying the impossible. Why is it impossible ? This is what i don't understand. Debian has chosen to side with Frans in this since the begining, thus causing this prolonged mess, why could it not have taken a neutral, transparent and honourable stance in this, and given a fair judgement. If Frans cannot live with a fair judgement, well, too bad with him, but this is hardly something you can use against me, can you ? And Frans, i still have hopes that this will change, if you just tried, and accepted the tentatives of conciliation for a change, everyone would be happy coding ever after, for the greater good of Debian. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther wrote: Is this so much to ask ? I ask this not of you, but of Debian, of you Joey, of all other readers. Yes. Thus, live with it and enjoy life without trying the impossible. Why is it impossible ? This is what i don't understand. Debian has Because what you would accept is not acceptable for Frans and what Frans accepts is very obviously not acceptable to you. Regards, Joey -- Never trust an operating system you don't have source for! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:17:53PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ? Sven, could you slide back to your own parallel world, and send back the yourself from this world, please ? Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:35:01PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: Is this so much to ask ? I ask this not of you, but of Debian, of you Joey, of all other readers. Yes. How sad, ... but it isd because of this, that the problem is still present after over a year, and that it has escalated beyond mesures. Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:29:50PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:17:53PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ? Sven, could you slide back to your own parallel world, and send back the yourself from this world, please ? Mike, i ask you to look at the expulsion details, i will sent them to you if you have not otherwise access, and look at the evidence found there, how At least two people said something replied to Frans, where they replied before the deadline was over, which makes it evident that it was frans who was one of the motors of the expulsion supporters searchers. Then you look at the date of the expulsion request, go back 2 weeks, and see it is the day after my DPL candidacy. Then, you tell me at that time, a week into february, what could possibly be reproached to me and justify a renewed expulsion request ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:52:03PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:29:50PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:17:53PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ? Sven, could you slide back to your own parallel world, and send back the yourself from this world, please ? Mike, i ask you to look at the expulsion details, i will sent them to you if you have not otherwise access, and look at the evidence found there, how At least two people said something replied to Frans, where they replied before the deadline was over, which makes it evident that it was frans who was one of the motors of the expulsion supporters searchers. Then you look at the date of the expulsion request, go back 2 weeks, and see it is the day after my DPL candidacy. Then, you tell me at that time, a week into february, what could possibly be reproached to me and justify a renewed expulsion request ? From my point of view, your words are less important that your actions and what happended in the past is less important that what you are doing now. You are just trying to be 'right' at any expense by beating up everyone else wheather they were involved in the events or not. You obviously have not seen the 'subversion guys talk at google about poisonous people'. In life you can 'be right' or 'be happy'. You choose 'being right' and the result is not being 'happy'. And your attacks on Debian are a substitute for something else that makes you unhappy. And that issue can not be solved by attacking folks here. Please find a way to resolve your sadness by seeking therapy. K -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/| | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keyserver: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | |join the new debian-community.org to help Debian! | |___ Unless I ask to be CCd, assume I am subscribed ___| -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther wrote: Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ? Even though my DPL candidacy had nothing to do with him, but rather because i saw problems in debian and, as i was told by astronut, candidating as DPL was a way to do something about it. Did they fear so much an honest DPL campaign, and what the result of the vote would have been ? Sven, let me ask you something. Do you really feel you stood a single chance to be elected as DPL? -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 11:13:11AM -0400, Kevin Mark wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:52:03PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:29:50PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:17:53PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ? Sven, could you slide back to your own parallel world, and send back the yourself from this world, please ? Mike, i ask you to look at the expulsion details, i will sent them to you if you have not otherwise access, and look at the evidence found there, how At least two people said something replied to Frans, where they replied before the deadline was over, which makes it evident that it was frans who was one of the motors of the expulsion supporters searchers. Then you look at the date of the expulsion request, go back 2 weeks, and see it is the day after my DPL candidacy. Then, you tell me at that time, a week into february, what could possibly be reproached to me and justify a renewed expulsion request ? From my point of view, your words are less important that your actions and what happended in the past is less important that what you are doing now. You are just trying to be 'right' at any expense by beating up everyone else wheather they were involved in the events or not. You Am i ? I am just using a public forum for speaking about my issue, since doing it in the private has so severly failed in the past. I am holding an open an transparent discussion with those who i hope may be moved to solve this in a fair and honourable way. I don't see how you can equate writing mails in a single list, on a set of well defined threads, as beating up everyone. I mean, then half the DDs who engage in random flamewars on random lists would be coupable of the same thing as me, and should be suspended for a year ? And i did indeed see, and skipped, many such flamewars, just look at your mailbox or your mail archive ? obviously have not seen the 'subversion guys talk at google about poisonous people'. In life you can 'be right' or 'be happy'. You choose No i have not, and i find it a bit insulting to be treated as a poinsonous people, or a energy beast, as other have called me. This is typical of the deshumanizing of the other party in this dispute, and hardly prone to help solve this. 'being right' and the result is not being 'happy'. And your attacks on Sure, i have tried the 'ignore it and be happy', saddly the other party could not be satisfied by this, and repeteadly restarted the agression while nothing could be reproached to me. I defy you or anyone to find a single reason to justify the renewal of the expulsion procedure at the start of february, or the hallucinating 'two month ban' after christmas. Debian are a substitute for something else that makes you unhappy. And No, you are wrong. Debian is the one making me unhappy, is the one hurting me, and no substitute for anything else. That is the problem, because the DDs fail to aknowledge the part of responsability they have in this mess in having it let escalate to such dramatic proportions. that issue can not be solved by attacking folks here. Please find a way to resolve your sadness by seeking therapy. Yeah, thanks. I wonder what psychological degree you have to be able to make such a diagnostic with the highly partial data you have in your possession. You must be a hell of a psychanalist :) Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 05:14:20PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Sven Luther wrote: Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ? Even though my DPL candidacy had nothing to do with him, but rather because i saw problems in debian and, as i was told by astronut, candidating as DPL was a way to do something about it. Did they fear so much an honest DPL campaign, and what the result of the vote would have been ? Sven, let me ask you something. Do you really feel you stood a single chance to be elected as DPL? Nope, but this is hardly ground for asking for my expulsion, is it ? Like i said, i was not even thinking about this until, i think it was astronut, pinged me on irc, and suggested that the DPL candidacy was a way to act on what i believed (don't remember the exact words). This seemed a reasonable thing to do at that time, especially as i was abiding by the self-enforced ban, enjoying the tranquility this offered to me, and hopping that by the end of the ban, or the upcoming FOSDEM meeting, we could finally find a way to deal with these issues in a non-confrontational way, and make everyone happy. I was really looking forward to meeting frans in real life, and solving the issue, those who where there may even remember that i tried to help him when he was having X related troubles at the start of his presentation. I even went to Holger after my talk, trying to ask him, as a one of those who where the most agressive against me, if i had managed my presentation while letting the old grudge aside, and there, after having exchanged a few words with James Troup, he was the first to tell me that so many folk where against me, don't you know what is happening, and that people where again asking about your expulsion, and debian would be better off without you. Now, it is my turn to ask you something. Do you really feel that the timing of the expulsion request can be seen as anything but shadowy dealings and mafioso politics ? I am ver very curious about this. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Le mardi 29 mai 2007 à 17:32 +0200, Sven Luther a écrit : Sven, let me ask you something. Do you really feel you stood a single chance to be elected as DPL? Nope Good. Now will you stop arguing your expulsion was requested because of your candidacy? Now, it is my turn to ask you something. Do you really feel that the timing of the expulsion request can be seen as anything but shadowy dealings and mafioso politics ? I am ver very curious about this. Yes, it can be seen as many other things. Saddened, Snoring, -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther dijo [Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:21:20PM +0200]: without a reason. This is justice: the harm was undone, you have aquired an additional level of protection, and no measures were taken against your disruptive behaviour. Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a whole. I ask you (you as DPL, you as Debian, you as individual DDs) to undo the harm done since over a year now too. I, as a DD, could not ask you to undo the harm, because I do not think you can become a different person. You have personal conflicts with too many people in Debian. I was, yes, against the expulsion - But I also invite you to stop participating where you cannot get any social interaction. Debian lists have been pretty calm in the last few months, but you make a post or two, and we become -again- the flamefest of the world. Sven: Please go away. You cannot work with the people in Debian that take care of the same areas you do. Your technical level is good, and Debian will end up losing valuable contributions. But it is more than proven you cannot work with the people in those teams. -- Gunnar Wolf - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF pgpfPuL5iR6LP.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Le mardi 29 mai 2007 à 17:44 +0200, Sven Luther a écrit : Can you tell me a single other reason which justified that my expulsion was requested on february 7 or so ? For example, that could be because of the fourth report of the IPCC - delivered on February 2 - which confirmed the human cause of the global climate changes. Some people may have concluded that your level of trolling is heavily responsible for global warming and can therefore not be accepted in Debian. I am really curious ? If by curious you mean strange, you definitely are. Now, it is my turn to ask you something. Do you really feel that the timing of the expulsion request can be seen as anything but shadowy dealings and mafioso politics ? I am ver very curious about this. Yes, it can be seen as many other things. Please give me an example of those many things it can be seen as ? It highly depends on the current tequila level. On a Friday evening, it can be seen as a green polka-dot walrus. -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther dijo [Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:12:19PM +0200]: Then what will change it ? Just leave Debian. Why should i ? Just because debian is unable tyo recognize it has behaved badly in this matter, and make amends ? Because you cannot work in it anymore. Because your co-workers are fed up with interminable flamewars. It is so easy to solve this issue in an honourable way, so easy, and i have been asking for an honourable and fair solution since over a year now. But the solution is not reachable. Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money and time and equipement i have given to debian ? That's free software, sorry. You have a well-recognized name as a PPC and kernel hacker. You have sacrificed those hours because you wanted to, nobody promised you (or me, or anybody for practical matters) anything in exchange. -- Gunnar Wolf - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 05:41:44PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mardi 29 mai 2007 à 17:32 +0200, Sven Luther a écrit : Sven, let me ask you something. Do you really feel you stood a single chance to be elected as DPL? Nope Good. Now will you stop arguing your expulsion was requested because of your candidacy? Can you tell me a single other reason which justified that my expulsion was requested on february 7 or so ? I am really curious ? Now, it is my turn to ask you something. Do you really feel that the timing of the expulsion request can be seen as anything but shadowy dealings and mafioso politics ? I am ver very curious about this. Yes, it can be seen as many other things. Please give me an example of those many things it can be seen as ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther dijo [Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:52:22PM +0200]: Funny thing about volunteers.. They tend to give their time willingly without getting things in return. That's kind of the point. If you're I actually did get something in return, pain and hurt and rejection. If i had gotten nothing in return, i would be happily coding for the best of debian, and we would all be happy. (...) Well, i am sure no volunteers likes freely giving their time, and be handled like shit afterward, i know it happens in many volunteer organisation. The point is, there is no reason for me to leave debian, i still have much to contribute, there is no reason to not search a resolution to this issue, which is easy and not time consuming, and could be done easily enough if all party put their pride and arrogance aside, and say : That's a good reason to leave Debian: Because so many people insult you, because so many people cannot stand yet-another-flamewar with no results, because you are so hurt with it. As an example of why this is a mess : 14:27:44 Ganneff svenl: would you *ever* consider something as valid way out thats not 100% what you want, ie you all admit you have been wrong? How funny, since This is exactly the discourse that Anthyony Towns, Frans Pop and Raphael Hertzof held to me : you must first admit that everything is your fault. ...And now, you also put Sam in your shitlist. And probably I'm next. And... How many are we? 1000 DDs? Will we all end up in the same list? -- Gunnar Wolf - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:29:35AM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote: Sven Luther dijo [Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:21:20PM +0200]: without a reason. This is justice: the harm was undone, you have aquired an additional level of protection, and no measures were taken against your disruptive behaviour. Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a whole. I ask you (you as DPL, you as Debian, you as individual DDs) to undo the harm done since over a year now too. I, as a DD, could not ask you to undo the harm, because I do not think you can become a different person. You have personal conflicts with too many people in Debian. I was, yes, against the expulsion - But I also invite you to stop participating where you cannot get any social interaction. Debian lists have been pretty calm in the last few months, but you make a post or two, and we become -again- the flamefest of the world. Err, no, it is not 'i make a post or two', but 'some action by some random guy does again show again how much debian has hurt me, and i react to it'. Please show me a single such thread which was not started by an external cause ? Sven: Please go away. You cannot work with the people in Debian that take care of the same areas you do. Your technical level is good, and I sure do, some very few of them have decided they cannot work with me, this is different. Debian will end up losing valuable contributions. But it is more than proven you cannot work with the people in those teams. The 30 or so patches i provided to d-i despite the continuous agressions of Frans, and the highly unfair situation are proof enough that you are wrong. Or do you have argumentation to support this so called 'proof' ? Or is this more plain FUD ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Le mardi 29 mai 2007 à 17:58 +0200, Sven Luther a écrit : Ok, so you have really no idea and are just trolling ? Yes, definitely. I think Debian should remain a place of shadowy dealings and mafioso politics. Therefore I don't want you to come and fix that. It highly depends on the current tequila level. On a Friday evening, it can be seen as a green polka-dot walrus. Yeah, like the theory that this was all a manipulation by Joerg Jaspert to show Anthony Towns in a bad light in the DPL election, right ? Mmm, wait, where did i hear this one ? I don't know. The theory I heard was that it was all a manipulation of the Illuminati to protect the Earth from a terrible alien invasion by tricking those who are spying debian-private (thanks to DDs using gmail) into thinking we are a too dangerous species for them. -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:35:21AM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote: Sven Luther dijo [Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:52:22PM +0200]: Funny thing about volunteers.. They tend to give their time willingly without getting things in return. That's kind of the point. If you're I actually did get something in return, pain and hurt and rejection. If i had gotten nothing in return, i would be happily coding for the best of debian, and we would all be happy. (...) Well, i am sure no volunteers likes freely giving their time, and be handled like shit afterward, i know it happens in many volunteer organisation. The point is, there is no reason for me to leave debian, i still have much to contribute, there is no reason to not search a resolution to this issue, which is easy and not time consuming, and could be done easily enough if all party put their pride and arrogance aside, and say : That's a good reason to leave Debian: Because so many people insult Err, a handful is so many people. I guess this is the cause of all my problem, we don't speak the same language. you, because so many people cannot stand yet-another-flamewar with no results, because you are so hurt with it. Well, then please o please, help ensure that there is a honest and fair result this time, so we won't have to go through this again next month. As an example of why this is a mess : 14:27:44 Ganneff svenl: would you *ever* consider something as valid way out thats not 100% what you want, ie you all admit you have been wrong? How funny, since This is exactly the discourse that Anthyony Towns, Frans Pop and Raphael Hertzof held to me : you must first admit that everything is your fault. ...And now, you also put Sam in your shitlist. And probably I'm next. And... How many are we? 1000 DDs? Will we all end up in the same list? Sorry, maybe i am stupid, but i fail to see why you mention sam here ? What list are you speaking about ? i see only a list of 3 persons, Anthony Towns, Frans Pop, and Raphael Hertzog, who told me you must first admit that everything is your fault. Again, i guess the problem here is that we don't speak the same language ... Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:31:45AM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote: Sven Luther dijo [Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:12:19PM +0200]: Then what will change it ? Just leave Debian. Why should i ? Just because debian is unable tyo recognize it has behaved badly in this matter, and make amends ? Because you cannot work in it anymore. Because your co-workers are fed up with interminable flamewars. Then let's solve the issue. This is what i have been asking since over a year nbow. It is so easy to solve this issue in an honourable way, so easy, and i have been asking for an honourable and fair solution since over a year now. But the solution is not reachable. Why not ? Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money and time and equipement i have given to debian ? That's free software, sorry. You have a well-recognized name as a PPC and kernel hacker. You have sacrificed those hours because you wanted to, nobody promised you (or me, or anybody for practical matters) anything in exchange. They sure as hell didn't promise me what i got since over a year, that i would be handled unfairly (as Wouter said), just because some guy felt i didn't respect him enough, or i would have gone running away since the start. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 06:05:53PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mardi 29 mai 2007 à 17:58 +0200, Sven Luther a écrit : Ok, so you have really no idea and are just trolling ? Yes, definitely. I think Debian should remain a place of shadowy dealings and mafioso politics. Therefore I don't want you to come and fix that. It highly depends on the current tequila level. On a Friday evening, it can be seen as a green polka-dot walrus. Yeah, like the theory that this was all a manipulation by Joerg Jaspert to show Anthony Towns in a bad light in the DPL election, right ? Mmm, wait, where did i hear this one ? I don't know. The theory I heard was that it was all a manipulation of the Illuminati to protect the Earth from a terrible alien invasion by tricking those who are spying debian-private (thanks to DDs using gmail) into thinking we are a too dangerous species for them. So, maybe i should publish the irc logs of the french cabal to help your memory, right ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 05:55:07PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mardi 29 mai 2007 à 17:44 +0200, Sven Luther a écrit : Can you tell me a single other reason which justified that my expulsion was requested on february 7 or so ? For example, that could be because of the fourth report of the IPCC - delivered on February 2 - which confirmed the human cause of the global climate changes. Some people may have concluded that your level of trolling is heavily responsible for global warming and can therefore not be accepted in Debian. Ok, so you have really no idea and are just trolling ? I am really curious ? If by curious you mean strange, you definitely are. Now, it is my turn to ask you something. Do you really feel that the timing of the expulsion request can be seen as anything but shadowy dealings and mafioso politics ? I am ver very curious about this. Yes, it can be seen as many other things. Please give me an example of those many things it can be seen as ? It highly depends on the current tequila level. On a Friday evening, it can be seen as a green polka-dot walrus. Yeah, like the theory that this was all a manipulation by Joerg Jaspert to show Anthony Towns in a bad light in the DPL election, right ? Mmm, wait, where did i hear this one ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 06:25:29PM +0200, Julien Cristau wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 18:10:41 +0200, Sven Luther wrote: So, maybe i should publish the irc logs of the french cabal to help your memory, right ? TINFC. Oh fun, MadCoder is threatening me with legal action ... Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 06:07:40PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: [snip] Err, a handful is so many people. I guess this is the cause of all my problem, we don't speak the same language. So on one hand, you again and again and again say that *Debian* is treating you badly, on the other hand you say that it's only a handful of people. What is it, one or the other? [snip] Regards: David -- /) David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] /) Rime on my window (\ // ~ // Diamond-white roses of fire // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Beautiful hoar-frost (/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven, You may or may not have been mistreated but the volume of your arguments is disproportionate. There are millions of people who are being treated far worse and on an ongoing basis and I'd like to use what few spare cycles my brain has to worry about them rather than skipping over arguments about Sven. Furthermore, your arguments are repetitive and counter-productive as they alienate more and more Debian readers. I would therefore ask you to reduce the volume of your posts on this subject by at least two orders of magnitude. You might want to consider developing a web page with careful analysis of evidence and arguments, reviewing it carefully over a period of weeks until you are certain it stands alone and does not require repetitive emails to shore it up, and then posting a single email with request for review by whomever you believe has the power to effect action in your favor. At that point, if you choose, it would not be unreasonable to link to said website in your sig. Respectfully, --Mike Bird -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:36:47AM -0700, Mike Bird wrote: Sven, You may or may not have been mistreated but the volume of your arguments is disproportionate. There are millions of people who are being treated far worse and on an ongoing basis and I'd like to use what few spare cycles my brain has to worry about them rather than skipping over arguments about Sven. Possibly, but for two points : - i am not forcing you to read this thread, just as i am not forced to read each of the random flamewar which debian has had without me being involved. - this is a case where you can do something, so it is a bit different than the case of all those who suffer far worse than me, and where you can hardly act. Furthermore, your arguments are repetitive and counter-productive as they alienate more and more Debian readers. Well, i am just holding an open and public conversation with some folk, is that so evil ? I believe the conversation has to be open and transparent, past dealings have shown me that trying to hold them in private will bring nothing, so what do you expect ? I would therefore ask you to reduce the volume of your posts on this subject by at least two orders of magnitude. Sure, but what will it bring ? You might want to consider developing a web page with careful You mean, like : http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs%2eSvenLutherIssue?highlight=%28SvenLuther%29 Didn't help, and that page is now almost 7 months old. analysis of evidence and arguments, reviewing it carefully over a period of weeks until you are certain it stands alone and does not require repetitive emails to shore it up, and then posting a single email with request for review by whomever you believe has the power to effect action in your favor. At that point, if you choose, it would not be unreasonable to link to said website in your sig. Would be a solution, but the problem is that there is absolutely no will on the other side to even look at the problem, so i have no solution but to make a fuss to say that the current situation is unacceptable to me. It is so easy to solve this issue, so easy, that i don't understand at all why people find it so important to come against me so strongly, creating mails which amount to around half of this thread, instead of saying, ok, we will investigate the issue, and solve this so everyone is happy. Sad, isn't it ? Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On 11034 March 1977, Sven Luther wrote: As an example of why this is a mess : 14:27:44 Ganneff svenl: would you *ever* consider something as valid way out thats not 100% what you want, ie you all admit you have been wrong? How funny, since This is exactly the discourse that Anthyony Towns, Frans Pop and Raphael Hertzof held to me : you must first admit that everything is your fault. That summary is not what I said in the quote above. Show me a sign, and i will jump on it, and we will all be back to happily coding, but upto now, all my tentatives of going another way have been cruel deceptions, and the trust i had in debian has been wronged, and i have seen no real sign of anybody searching a resolution. The sign was big, really. It was a take a *long* break, come back then sign. Its not the sign you like, so you consider it bad, unhonest, $whatever. You can have another sign if you want, but I bet you also dont like it, its from one of those nasty guys that only want to destroy Debian and not give you all what you want... The sign would read similar to if you manage to have such a long break as suggested and then come back, *without* rehashing all those old arguments in endless threads again and again - people would actually listen to what you (may) have to say. They would work together with you. You know, people tend to forget old stuff, thats human (and thats good). But if you continue to fight you wont ever get your involvement in Debian back to a stage you enjoy it again. Sad, and for sure not what you want to read, but thats it. -- bye Joerg quinophex iDunno: anyhow, tbm fits the description of an alug user quinophex he uses linux and is based in East Anglia :) tbm he uses linux. I run the Debian project, for fucks sake! :-P pgpA94ukkhrxd.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther wrote: Yes, it is only a handful of people who really have a problem with me. I guess if you go down to it there is only a single person who really has a problem, and a few others who also feel pretty strongly about this. The number of people having a problem with you will increase significantly if you don't stop burning our bandwidth with this nonsense. Sven ... for goodness sake, drop it and move on! Steve -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 07:45:51PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:52:03PM +0200, Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:29:50PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:17:53PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ? Sven, could you slide back to your own parallel world, and send back the yourself from this world, please ? Mike, i ask you to look at the expulsion details, i will sent them to you if you have not otherwise access, and look at the evidence found there Like Anthony's request for suspension in January (iirc) ? The expulsion procedure asks for 2 weeks for getting enough supporters, and Anthony himself showed his suprise when it was not dropped. The procedure also asks for 2 weeks after the expulsion request is done to gather supporters, which leaves us at two weeks before the saturday of FOSDEM, and when you count back, it brings us as exactly the day after i candidated for DPL, while i had not posted a single mail in a full month. So, where is the evidence you speak about ? Sadly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On 5/29/07, Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, it is only a handful of people who really have a problem with me. I guess if you go down to it there is only a single person who really has a problem, and a few others who also feel pretty strongly about this. Hi Sven. I apologize for all the bad things that we as a community did to you! I'm sorry. We're sorry. I regret this... We regret this ... I really don't have the time and the patience of reading all the messages you have sent to support your position. I doubt anyone did! I think you should know this... you should use this energy (A LOT) and do something useful. What else we can do to help you? Do you accept our apologies? Can you? Do you want more than our apologies? NOTE: I hope this discussion will end shortly, I don't have more to say without repeating myself. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:35:05PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070529 18:17]: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:29:35AM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote: Sven Luther dijo [Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:21:20PM +0200]: without a reason. This is justice: the harm was undone, you have aquired an additional level of protection, and no measures were taken against your disruptive behaviour. Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a whole. I ask you (you as DPL, you as Debian, you as individual DDs) to undo the harm done since over a year now too. I, as a DD, could not ask you to undo the harm, because I do not think you can become a different person. You have personal conflicts with too many people in Debian. I was, yes, against the expulsion - But I also invite you to stop participating where you cannot get any social interaction. Debian lists have been pretty calm in the last few months, but you make a post or two, and we become -again- the flamefest of the world. Err, no, it is not 'i make a post or two', but 'some action by some random guy does again show again how much debian has hurt me, and i react to it'. And then you cannot just stop when the mistake has been fixed. *That* is the main reason for the issue. Ok, fine, i will stop as soon as my suspension is lifted, and it is clearly told that i am not the sole responsible for this whole mess. Back a few months ago, I was between unsure and in favour of not expulsing you. You made me change my opinion in the last 36 hours. This is not something easy for me to say. But you convinced me that it would be better for both you and Debian if our ways part. I still hope that you realize that too, but if you don't, I'm seriously considering to ask DAM and listmaster to make it happen. Nice. I hope they will follow the procedure this time, and not let shadowy dealings get in the way. I'm very very sad about this happening. Yes, but you won't do a thing so it happens otherwise. Sadly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:45:59PM +0300, Teodor wrote: On 5/29/07, Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, it is only a handful of people who really have a problem with me. I guess if you go down to it there is only a single person who really has a problem, and a few others who also feel pretty strongly about this. Hi Sven. I apologize for all the bad things that we as a community did to you! I'm sorry. We're sorry. I regret this... We regret this ... I really don't have the time and the patience of reading all the messages you have sent to support your position. I doubt anyone did! I think you should know this... you should use this energy (A LOT) and do something useful. What else we can do to help you? Do you accept our apologies? Can you? Do you want more than our apologies? Thanks for your apologies. I accept it in the spirit it was given, but i fear that Debian doesn't share your position, or if it does, why does it costs it so much to say so publicly ? NOTE: I hope this discussion will end shortly, I don't have more to say without repeating myself. I am not sure, there seem to be people intent on making it happen, and have it escalate worse still. Too bad, all i asked is an honest hearing, and a fairt handling, and a will to solve this. Too bad, Sadly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tuesday 29 May 2007 09:59, Sven Luther wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:36:47AM -0700, Mike Bird wrote: You might want to consider developing a web page with careful analysis of evidence and arguments, reviewing it carefully over a period of weeks until you are certain it stands alone and does not require repetitive emails to shore it up, and then posting a single email with request for review by whomever you believe has the power to effect action in your favor. At that point, if you choose, it would not be unreasonable to link to said website in your sig. You mean, like : http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs%2eSvenLutherIssu e?highlight=%28SvenLuther%29 Didn't help, and that page is now almost 7 months old. Sven, That page does not have careful analysis of evidence and arguments, was obviously not carefully reviewed over a period of time, does not stand alone, does require repetitive emails to shore it up, and is not linked from your sig. In short, it fails to meet the overwhelming majority of the specified criteria. Therefore, in answer to your question whether I mean a page like that, the answer is no. That page is garbage. You need to apply the same brain power that you apply to technical work. Decide how to structure your argument, decide what to include and what to exclude, present it carefully, review and refine it over a period of weeks. One possibility, loosely based on anglophone legal procedure (IANAL): * Introduction - briefly outlining the alleged wrong and what remedy you think should be had. Should also motivate the reader to continue reading rather than merely annoying the reader. Should denote the person or persons whom you believe have the power to grant you the remedy. * Facts - the events, relationships, rights, duties, etc which you allege show that you were wronged and that you have a right to your proposed remedy. * Authorities - the rules, traditions, constitutions, written laws, common (unwritten) laws, etc. The authorities must first establish the wrong, i.e. that you had a right - perhaps just the right to be left alone - which someone had a duty to observe and which right that someone breached. The authorities must second establish that in light of the wrong, you have a right to your proposed remedy from the power. (For example, if I were to sue the US Government, I might be able to show that I was wronged but depending upon the facts I might not have a right to a remedy from a US court.) * Evidence - that which tends to establish the facts you allege. This will probably be mostly links to emails but could also include new posted statements by yourself or others. * Argument - not childish whining but a carefully thought out presentation that shows (a) that the evidence proves the facts and (b) that the facts show a wrong under cited authority and (c) that cited authority gives you the right to your proposed remedy for that wrong (d) from the person or persons whom you believe have the power to grant you the remedy. * Conclusion - briefly summarizing the alleged wrong, reemphasizing a few key points of the case, and a reassertion of the remedy which you think should be had. Should again denote the person or persons whom you believe have the power to grant you the remedy. That's the order you present it. It's obviously not the order you think about it. You start with the evidence, figure out what facts you can prove, and then determine whether there are any authorities establishing both the existence of a wrong against you and your right to a remedy from some power. When written, reviewed, and refined to the best of your ability, you send the URL to the person or persons whom you believe should grant you the remedy, optionally with a cc to -project. The relevant power could be the DPL, the DAMs, all DDs for a GR, or even a court of law. I don't know. That's up to you to figure out, optionally with the assistance of friends or an attorney. I would further suggest creating your web page somewhere (a) under your total control and (b) not using Debian resources. One doesn't steal a sheet of paper from the judge to file a complaint. It's a trivial offence but it's just not smart. However it might be reasonable to post a very brief balanced mention of the dispute to the Debian Wiki, with a link to your page and space for others to post links to opposing views if they choose. If for some reason it is not possible to do as suggested - if something in the chain of evidence, facts, authorities, and powers is inadequate - then you don't have a case for the remedy you desire. You kick yourself and get on with your life, and you stop whining on the mailing lists. --Mike Bird -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 11:49:23AM -0700, Mike Bird wrote: On Tuesday 29 May 2007 09:59, Sven Luther wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:36:47AM -0700, Mike Bird wrote: You might want to consider developing a web page with careful analysis of evidence and arguments, reviewing it carefully over a period of weeks until you are certain it stands alone and does not require repetitive emails to shore it up, and then posting a single email with request for review by whomever you believe has the power to effect action in your favor. At that point, if you choose, it would not be unreasonable to link to said website in your sig. You mean, like : http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs%2eSvenLutherIssu e?highlight=%28SvenLuther%29 Didn't help, and that page is now almost 7 months old. Sven, That page does not have careful analysis of evidence and arguments, Yes, because i chose to forget old grudges, and show only positive and constructive effort, well in the original page at : http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs.SvenLutherIssue/SvenLuther that is. was obviously not carefully reviewed over a period of time, does not stand alone, does require repetitive emails to shore it up, and is not linked from your sig. In short, it fails to meet the overwhelming majority of the specified criteria. Therefore, in answer to your question whether I mean a page like that, the answer is no. Ok. But as said, i worked on a page which showed my positive contribution to the debian project, and the d-i subproject in particular, despite the stress i was under. Frans replied : FUCK OFF, and the worst crap ever. That page is garbage. You need to apply the same brain power that you apply to technical work. Decide how to structure your argument, decide what to include and what to exclude, present it carefully, review and refine it over a period of weeks. Sorry for giving the wrong link, see : http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs.SvenLutherIssue/SvenLuther One possibility, loosely based on anglophone legal procedure (IANAL): * Introduction - briefly outlining the alleged wrong and what remedy you think should be had. Should also motivate the reader to continue reading rather than merely annoying the reader. Should denote the person or persons whom you believe have the power to grant you the remedy. * Facts - the events, relationships, rights, duties, etc which you allege show that you were wronged and that you have a right to your proposed remedy. * Authorities - the rules, traditions, constitutions, written laws, common (unwritten) laws, etc. The authorities must first establish the wrong, i.e. that you had a right - perhaps just the right to be left alone - which someone had a duty to observe and which right that someone breached. The authorities must second establish that in light of the wrong, you have a right to your proposed remedy from the power. (For example, if I were to sue the US Government, I might be able to show that I was wronged but depending upon the facts I might not have a right to a remedy from a US court.) * Evidence - that which tends to establish the facts you allege. This will probably be mostly links to emails but could also include new posted statements by yourself or others. * Argument - not childish whining but a carefully thought out presentation that shows (a) that the evidence proves the facts and (b) that the facts show a wrong under cited authority and (c) that cited authority gives you the right to your proposed remedy for that wrong (d) from the person or persons whom you believe have the power to grant you the remedy. * Conclusion - briefly summarizing the alleged wrong, reemphasizing a few key points of the case, and a reassertion of the remedy which you think should be had. Should again denote the person or persons whom you believe have the power to grant you the remedy. Sure, as said, my original page linked above, follows some of these issues, but enphasing the constructive and positive work i have done, and putting aside the old grudges, in hope of a positive resolution. The other page evolved with the knee jerk reaction of the other party to hit, and the terror methods of one Chealer who believed himself master of the wiki. That's the order you present it. It's obviously not the order you think about it. You start with the evidence, figure out what facts you can prove, and then determine whether there are any authorities establishing both the existence of a wrong against you and your right to a remedy from some power. When written, reviewed, and refined to the best of your ability, you send the URL to the person or persons whom you believe should grant you the remedy, optionally with a cc to -project. The relevant power could be the DPL, the DAMs, all DDs for a GR, or
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On 11034 March 1977, Sven Luther wrote: 14:27:44 Ganneff svenl: would you *ever* consider something as valid way out thats not 100% what you want, ie you all admit you have been wrong? How funny, since This is exactly the discourse that Anthyony Towns, Frans Pop and Raphael Hertzof held to me : you must first admit that everything is your fault. That summary is not what I said in the quote above. Care to elaborate ? It is pretty similar. Simple, as written above: Would you ever consider something as a valid way out if that way out does not include a full drop suspension, give back d-i rights, full apology from Debian for whatever it did in the past to hurt you? (Note the ). Show me a sign, and i will jump on it, and we will all be back to happily coding, but upto now, all my tentatives of going another way have been cruel deceptions, and the trust i had in debian has been wronged, and i have seen no real sign of anybody searching a resolution. The sign was big, really. It was a take a *long* break, come back then No, the sign was that i was the sole one to blame in this mess, while the responsabilities are shared. In the context of it, it was putting all the responsability on me, and totally absolving the other party in this. This is not fully your fault, since there was no global handling of the situation, but still there was no sign, only punishment. Right, I was putting the blame only on you. Sure thats why I had a paragraph like the following in the decision. --8schnipp-8--- Yes, its not only Sven's fault that we got here. He is part of it, probably the largest part, but many others involved in this whole story did their own work in getting us to the point we are now. But right now, in this procedure, we had to decide about Sven, not about anyone else. --8schnapp-8--- -- bye Joerg Keybuk one imagines he'll be campaigning with a grass-roots free auric stance Keybuk or possibly kill DanielS ElectricElf Hmm, both powerful platforms. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 07:21:08PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:36:47AM -0700, Mike Bird wrote: Sven, You may or may not have been mistreated but the volume of your arguments is disproportionate. There are millions of people who are being treated far worse and on an ongoing basis and I'd like to use what few spare cycles my brain has to worry about them rather than skipping over arguments about Sven. Possibly, but for two points : - i am not forcing you to read this thread, just as i am not forced to read each of the random flamewar which debian has had without me being involved. You are not forced to work on Debian and pollute its mailing lists either, yet still you seem to be doing exactly that. Why? Why can't i post on debian mailing lists, if it costs nothing but email archive space and some bandwidth, which is cheap nowaday ? Just because Technically you can. Maybe that's the problem. I assume that it's being worked on. You should not because you annoy people and demonstrate all the time that you're unable to accept other people's opinion if they don't exactly match your own. That's doing yourself a big disfavour. You don't believe this, I know. It's hopeless. you don't like what i have to say i should i have less right to the use of the mailing lists than you or others do ? Thanks for putting differnt words in my mouth. If you are unable to contribute anything useful couldn't you just STFU like everybody else? Or do you deny that this is a ways more important topic than the choice of code names, or seeing the d-i folk fight over usplash, or any other random thread on our lists ? You are writing bullshit. Everybody else notices this. Except you. Why should i have less right to post on the lists than others do ? The time will come when you will have less rights to post to the Debian lists. Just continue. Please tell me when i have been spreading FUD. I have always told the You are repeating that the request for suspension has anything to do with your DPL candidacy, yet there's no such proof. This is FUD. truth to the best of my knowledge, which has not been the case of Maybe your knowledge is not the best because it's based on the assumption that you know what others think? Yet you fail to realise that others are annoyed and offended by you and your actions. everyone here. As for dead horses, i am not dead yet. You're not beating yourself. Not sure if you should... true, but a pretty pointless one. As said numerous times, you would do yourself and others a favour stopping that. It is not my fault it is a pointless one. Why can't we take this Yes it is your fault. oportunity to finally handle this issue like it should have been from the start, and give debian a tool to really handle such social problems so it won't happen again in the future ? Because nobody has invented such a tool yet. And even if that will be the case in the future, I don't anticipate you to accept its handling of the issue. Hence, its existence doesn't matter at all. LET IT GO SVEN! I would therefore ask you to reduce the volume of your posts on this subject by at least two orders of magnitude. Sure, but what will it bring ? Contrary to the flood of mails it has the potential to calm down the situation, at least for people not named 'Sven Luther'. To what end ? So we can have this same mess in two weeks ? The so called mess is your flood of aggression, FUD and $whatever. Would be a solution, but the problem is that there is absolutely no will on the other side to even look at the problem, so i have no solution but to make a fuss to say that the current situation is unacceptable to me. The solution is you not having d-i commit permission. You don't accept this. Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] My responsability : - I admit that the d-i team don't want to deal with me, too bad for debian and them. Great! Now stop this rediculous thread and start living again. Due to your behaviour you have also be suspended for a while. Not due to my behaviour, due to unaceptable full play, and irregularities in the expulsion procedure. This is not the same, and this is the truth nobody wants me to claim loudly. Yes, because of your own behaviour. Live with this. You are responsible for how you are treated, not only and always other people. Well, i think you are wrong. I know. You believe everybody is wrong and is after you. We all know that. You have expressed this numerous times. No need to repeat that. The irregularities around the expulsion procedure are hurting deban, and many are outraged by it, even though they remain silent. YOU are hurting Debian AND YOURSELF much more than the expulsion procedure could ever do. But debian can grow up, and learn how to deal
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther wrote: Why can't i post on debian mailing lists, if it costs nothing but email archive space and some bandwidth, which is cheap nowaday ? Just because you don't like what i have to say i should i have less right to the use of the mailing lists than you or others do ? You are filling inboxes with this drivel, it is as bad as a denial of service attack. Please stop! I beg you. Oh heck, I just exacerbated the sven spam problem with *this* email. Sorry guys. Steve -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] because the DDs fail to aknowledge the part of responsability they have in this mess in having it let escalate to such dramatic proportions. I'm working on this, but I am currently suffering a denial-of-service attack from a thread about it on debian-project that's eating all the (mental) bandwidth I can allocate to it. I suspect other DDs may be either suffering the same problem or already be dropping the excess data at their mail interface. Please limit the number of posts per day to this thread. Regards, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:07:31PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 07:21:08PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:36:47AM -0700, Mike Bird wrote: Sven, You may or may not have been mistreated but the volume of your arguments is disproportionate. There are millions of people who are being treated far worse and on an ongoing basis and I'd like to use what few spare cycles my brain has to worry about them rather than skipping over arguments about Sven. Possibly, but for two points : - i am not forcing you to read this thread, just as i am not forced to read each of the random flamewar which debian has had without me being involved. You are not forced to work on Debian and pollute its mailing lists either, yet still you seem to be doing exactly that. Why? Why can't i post on debian mailing lists, if it costs nothing but email archive space and some bandwidth, which is cheap nowaday ? Just because Technically you can. Maybe that's the problem. I assume that it's being worked on. Yeah, right, so we should move this to another media. I asked that an in RL meeting be hold, so we could solve this. I asked this since november or so, but no response to it since then. You should not because you annoy people and demonstrate all the time that you're unable to accept other people's opinion if they don't Hey, i accept other people's opinion. Especially if it is argumented. Sure i have problem with people saying me shut up, and giving no argumentation, and i have a tendency of repeating myself when faced with people who accuse me of some thing, while ignoring that i have been claiming the contrary for months. exactly match your own. That's doing yourself a big disfavour. You don't believe this, I know. It's hopeless. I could say the same of you, you know, so where does this leave us ? That is the disease of debian, in that it is composed of too many over-proud people unable to make compromises. Don't you want to fix debian so it can deal fairly even under those conditions ? And i am probably more flexible and reasonable than all those of the other side of this mess. Care to give me a chance ? you don't like what i have to say i should i have less right to the use of the mailing lists than you or others do ? Thanks for putting differnt words in my mouth. If you are unable to contribute anything useful couldn't you just STFU like everybody else? Like you are just doing ? Well, this is honest discussion about a topic which is bleeding raw in debian. It is a legitimate topic to speak about, it is sad that this mess is the only way it can be expressed, but what other solution is there ? Or do you deny that this is a ways more important topic than the choice of code names, or seeing the d-i folk fight over usplash, or any other random thread on our lists ? You are writing bullshit. Everybody else notices this. Except you. I am ? can you please argument and show what this bullshit is, instead of ignoring the arguments which don't favour you and spreading FUD ? Why should i have less right to post on the lists than others do ? The time will come when you will have less rights to post to the Debian lists. Just continue. Right, i am trying to argument and discuss, and you are threatening me. What happened to trying to argument instead ? Please tell me when i have been spreading FUD. I have always told the You are repeating that the request for suspension has anything to do with your DPL candidacy, yet there's no such proof. This is FUD. No it is not : - the expulsion request was notified to me on the saturday of FOSDEM, (even though it got lost), the procedure asked for 2 weeks to requests supporters, this brings us to exactly 1 day after i offered my DPL candidacy. - Anthony Towns expressed his surprise at the request of january 7 or so not being dropped, and said he didn't understand what was going on. - The DAMs removed all dates from the supporters mail, and included various which where a year old, dating from Andres expulsion request of last year, which he rescinded. They did not respond to repeated requests to provide those mails. - The expulsion supporters show various mails showing evidence of Frans Pop actively campaigning to meet the deadline. - Various people expressed the opinion that i candidated as DPL just to gain another forum to speak about this mess, while this was not my intention, and at that time i had largely forgotten the d-i disaster, even greeting Frans friendly-y at FOSDEM, tried to hold a discussion about the technical possibilities offered by the kernel for the future of d-i, and even helped frans during his presentation when he was having X troubles. - I candidated as DPL, with the
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:26:20PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] because the DDs fail to aknowledge the part of responsability they have in this mess in having it let escalate to such dramatic proportions. I'm working on this, but I am currently suffering a denial-of-service attack from a thread about it on debian-project that's eating all the (mental) bandwidth I can allocate to it. I suspect other DDs may be either suffering the same problem or already be dropping the excess data at their mail interface. Please limit the number of posts per day to this thread. Lively discussion is a sign of good health in any project; If the other party stopped they argument-less trolling, it would be much easier to hold a meaningfull conversation. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
* Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070529 22:05]: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:26:20PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: Please limit the number of posts per day to this thread. Lively discussion Lively discussion and DoS is a different thing. You do DoS. Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tuesday 29 May 2007 11:58, Sven Luther wrote: You are wrong, you still need a impartial judge. Tell me where in debian i do find such ? That is the main problem, any argumentation is just lost time without a fair hearing and an impartial judge. If you can find an impartial judge which will not be dismissed by debian or blackmailed, then i will take the time to do so. Sven, You're making progress but there is still an error in your logic. If you don't believe the judge you choose will ever under any circumstances grant you the relief you desire, then you kick yourself and get on with your life. You don't whine online. If on the other hand you believe that there is a possibility that the DPL or DAMs or DDs or your local municipal court judge or the international criminal court in the Hague may rule in your favor, then you put in the effort to properly prepare your case using the same brain you use for your technical work. You don't whine online. Under no circumstances is whining online a sensible policy. Go to it, and good luck. --Mike Bird -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Hi, On Tuesday 29 May 2007 22:05, Sven Luther wrote: Lively discussion is a sign of good health in any project; not always :-) friendly, Holger pgp96oKujJmCP.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther wrote: Care to give me a chance ? You've had your chances, Sven. You're restarting with the old pattern, always. you don't like what i have to say i should i have less right to the use of the mailing lists than you or others do ? Thanks for putting differnt words in my mouth. If you are unable to contribute anything useful couldn't you just STFU like everybody else? Like you are just doing ? Ok. I will shut up now. Live well. It was fun to work together with you a couple of years ago. Joey -- Never trust an operating system you don't have source for! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:16:39PM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote: Hi, On Tuesday 29 May 2007 22:05, Sven Luther wrote: Lively discussion is a sign of good health in any project; not always :-) Well, among all those here, you are the only one who spoke with me at debconf, and lost the oportunity to help diffuse the issue :) Openly speaking about a topic is always better than making it a taboo, something to be hidden and ashamed of. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:17:02PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: Care to give me a chance ? You've had your chances, Sven. When ? You're restarting with the old pattern, always. you don't like what i have to say i should i have less right to the use of the mailing lists than you or others do ? Thanks for putting differnt words in my mouth. If you are unable to contribute anything useful couldn't you just STFU like everybody else? Like you are just doing ? Ok. I will shut up now. Live well. It was fun to work together with you a couple of years ago. Ah, neat, so when faced with facts, and argumented decision, suddenly there is nobody there anymore ? Sadly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:15:01PM -0700, Mike Bird wrote: On Tuesday 29 May 2007 11:58, Sven Luther wrote: You are wrong, you still need a impartial judge. Tell me where in debian i do find such ? That is the main problem, any argumentation is just lost time without a fair hearing and an impartial judge. If you can find an impartial judge which will not be dismissed by debian or blackmailed, then i will take the time to do so. Sven, You're making progress but there is still an error in your logic. Is there ? If you don't believe the judge you choose will ever under any circumstances grant you the relief you desire, then you kick yourself and get on with your life. You don't whine online. Nope, which is why i asked Wouter and Andreas Schuldei to be part of the mediation comittee. I believe that the judge in question should be unquestionly honest and fair, and recognized as such by either side. If on the other hand you believe that there is a possibility that the DPL or DAMs or DDs or your local municipal court judge or the international criminal court in the Hague may rule in your favor, then you put in the effort to properly prepare your case using the same brain you use for your technical work. You don't whine online. Under no circumstances is whining online a sensible policy. Erm, what about all those folks protesting in the street against this or that unjust handling, ? Is this not a sensible policy ? It is the only way open to the oppresed except armed revolution. Go to it, and good luck. You still haven't commented on the original wiki page. Tell me what i should have done with it so it could have had more success than it did. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:11:01PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070529 22:05]: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:26:20PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: Please limit the number of posts per day to this thread. Lively discussion Lively discussion and DoS is a different thing. You do DoS. Then offer me a different medium. Please gather all your thoughts on the subject and write a letter, as concisely and to the point as possible. Print out 1000 copies and mail ONE COPY ONLY to each developer. Then respond to my requests of an in RL meeting, or setup an irc meeting with rules, or propose another media, like a web pages, with an impartial judge and transparent handling. Or go ahead an create the social comittee so many have asked for to deal with this issue. Why do you need an impartial judge? This is a communal volunteer project, not a court of law. Like it or not, you need to be able to cooperate with your fellow developers, despite their potential biases, likes and dislikes. Can't get along with particular folks? Then move on and do something more productive, or learn to work with them nicely. Complaining more won't help--we have already heard the arguments enough times over the last few years. We get that you can't work with certain developers. That's a problem you have not made sufficient efforts to either resolve or avoid. There was never a need to let things get this bad, but you did and are continuting to do so with this huge spam flood. Deal with it and carry on with life. Life isn't perfect; the rest of us accept that we don't always get our own way (irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the matter in question), and move on from that. Sure, mail is not the best media, let's find something else, but the status quo is not acceptable to me, despite all those whose sole argument is YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT AND LIVE WITH IT. That's just the way things really and truly are. That's the reality, whether you like it or not. If you want to change it, you need to make a big effort to rectify the damage you have caused to your relations with your fellow developers. Is this possible at this stage? I don't know. It's largely up to you to do it if you can. Regards, Roger -- .''`. Roger Leigh : :' : Debian GNU/Linux http://people.debian.org/~rleigh/ `. `' Printing on GNU/Linux? http://gutenprint.sourceforge.net/ `-GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848 Please GPG sign your mail. pgpVNC8CJqeB0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Openly speaking about a topic is always better than making it a taboo, something to be hidden and ashamed of. Oftentimes, problems magically resolve themselves of their own accord when we ignore them for a while, and everyone forgets that they ever existed. Picking at things can make them worse, and you are succeeding well at making an otherwise small and inconsequential issue (from the perspective of the project as a whole) that may have resolved itself with time into something that the whole project is now aware of (and also quite tired to hearing about). Doing this has not helped you in any way! Regards, Roger -- .''`. Roger Leigh : :' : Debian GNU/Linux http://people.debian.org/~rleigh/ `. `' Printing on GNU/Linux? http://gutenprint.sourceforge.net/ `-GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848 Please GPG sign your mail. pgpHkC6NSvoe4.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:25:10PM +0100, Roger Leigh wrote: Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:11:01PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070529 22:05]: On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:26:20PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: Please limit the number of posts per day to this thread. Lively discussion Lively discussion and DoS is a different thing. You do DoS. Then offer me a different medium. Please gather all your thoughts on the subject and write a letter, as concisely and to the point as possible. Print out 1000 copies and mail ONE COPY ONLY to each developer. Mmm, i guess a web page will do just as nicely, and cost less, no ? But i already tried this with : http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs.SvenLutherIssue/SvenLuther to no avail. Then respond to my requests of an in RL meeting, or setup an irc meeting with rules, or propose another media, like a web pages, with an impartial judge and transparent handling. Or go ahead an create the social comittee so many have asked for to deal with this issue. Why do you need an impartial judge? This is a communal volunteer Well, it seems obvious to me. A partial judge, who takes side with one of the parties stands no chance to giving a fair ruling. Since both the previous DPL and the DAMs have set themselves out as judge, the court of law analogy is valid. project, not a court of law. Like it or not, you need to be able to cooperate with your fellow developers, despite their potential biases, likes and dislikes. Can't get along with particular folks? Then move Yes, but does this also apply to the other DDs or just me ? If some other folk have problems with me, then they should learn to work with me, or try to move on and work on something else, instead of hunding me down and trying every trick to make my live impossible. In particular, the expulsion request on february 7 or thereabout was *NOT* justified, nor was the ban proposal by Fabio after christmas. on and do something more productive, or learn to work with them nicely. Complaining more won't help--we have already heard the arguments enough times over the last few years. and do you deny that i am at least partly justified ? We get that you can't work with certain developers. That's a problem Nope, here : http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs.SvenLutherIssue/SvenLuther#head-69bb71fe3ef5766e46624ff746cd888a4591a6c6 is proof that this is not true. These other developers you mention cannot work with me, and did everything possible to harras me. you have not made sufficient efforts to either resolve or avoid. Ah, i did not ? Please reread that wiki page, and repeat that to me ? Please tell me what was wrong with the two month self-imposed ban i accepted on january-february ? There was never a need to let things get this bad, but you did and are Sorry, but it was not me which rekindled the fire after chirstmas, nor was it me who asked for the expulsion again in february, both time without any provocation. continuting to do so with this huge spam flood. Deal with it and carry on with life. Life isn't perfect; the rest of us accept that we don't always get our own way (irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the matter in question), and move on from that. Yep, and each time i tried to move on, i got another agression. And please reread the DAMs judgement, and come tell me it was not an agression ? Sure, mail is not the best media, let's find something else, but the status quo is not acceptable to me, despite all those whose sole argument is YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT AND LIVE WITH IT. That's just the way things really and truly are. That's the reality, whether you like it or not. It is just the way things are *BECAUSE YOU AND OTHER DDs CHOSE TO LET IT HAPPEN*. If you want to change it, you need to make a big effort to rectify the damage you have caused to your relations with your fellow developers. Ah, right ? something like : http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs.SvenLutherIssue/SvenLuther#head-1ddf2df9a9ca7cdebacd7821b8692b44552a0b0e An last a personal message to Frans, remember when we where in Extremadura, we had a good time, and we worked side by side. I seriously lament that it all degenerated like it did. I certainly have my part of responsability in this, but i passed though times, as you know. Let's put pride and arrogance and remembrance of past hurts aside, and let's again work on d-i all together, as it should be. Or the repeated other efforts i have made since last year to reach a compromise and a reconciliation ? Did you see any result on this ? No, only worse agression. An expulsion request which was totally unprovoked, while i had not posted a single mail for a whole month. Is this possible at this stage? I don't know. It's largely up to you to do it if you can. No,
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:31:07PM +0100, Roger Leigh wrote: Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Openly speaking about a topic is always better than making it a taboo, something to be hidden and ashamed of. Oftentimes, problems magically resolve themselves of their own accord when we ignore them for a while, and everyone forgets that they ever existed. Only if they are based on a sane basis. The current situation is not this case, it is based on injustice and unfairness, on hate and hurting, on you should first recognize that everything is your fault. On making one party the judge of the others good behaviour, when said other party is known to be stubborn and proud, and the fault is shared. There is no way such a situation could heal itself by magic over time, it can only fester, and i have told this since over a year ago. Picking at things can make them worse, and you are succeeding well at making an otherwise small and inconsequential issue (from the perspective of the project as a whole) that may have resolved itself with time into something that the whole project is now aware of (and also quite tired to hearing about). Doing this has not helped you in any way! No, because the there is an incredible expense of effort on the part of the Project to not solve it, except by applying brute force in order to silence me. I really don't understand how the other DDs can accept this. My current guess is that most don't, but are indeed not wanting to be remembered about it, but kind of feel sick about the whole issue. So, i am as sick of everyone else about this mess, but just being silent is no solution, i have had no response about my repeated request that this be handled globally and fairly, preferably in an in-RL meeting, or in some other way. So, you say that this does not help me, but nothing else has, so ... sadly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
Le Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:11:01PM +0200, Andreas Barth a écrit : Lively discussion and DoS is a different thing. You do DoS. Dear all, Somehow, I can't help thinking that 50 % of the emails in this thread are not written by Sven... Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy http://charles.plessy.org Wako, Saitama, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Tue, 29 May 2007 07:30:27 +0200, Sven Luther wrote: [...] And if some threaten to leave the project because i am not punished, then so be it, debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour will only hurt the project again one way or another, and should not be encouraged. Comedy gold. Thank you, Sven; this made my day! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Sun, May 27, 2007, Sven Luther wrote: I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be publicly addressed. Sven, first of all, please restrict your postings to debian-project, ideally to specific threads as I already suggested some time ago. It is awfully complicated to follow what it is exactly you are requesting, and you are annoying everyone. If you do not stop spamming the lists I will support any proposal to remove you from the lists before even looking at your requests, because listening to you while you keep being a nuisance would make me look like a supporter of spam, trolls and general chaos and I certainly don't want to be associated with such things. Kind regards, -- Sam. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 11:05:00PM +0200, Sam Hocevar wrote: On Sun, May 27, 2007, Sven Luther wrote: I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be publicly addressed. Sven, first of all, please restrict your postings to debian-project, Whyever should i do that ? ideally to specific threads as I already suggested some time ago. It is awfully complicated to follow what it is exactly you are requesting, and you are annoying everyone. It is especially awful complicated to ignore it you mean ? There is no doubt about what i am requesting, as everyone is telling me, i keep repeating the same thing over and over. If you do not stop spamming the lists I will support any proposal to remove you from the lists before even looking at your requests, because listening to you while you keep being a nuisance would make me look like a supporter of spam, trolls and general chaos and I certainly don't want to be associated with such things. Sure, and i will have to go to slashdot or the general press, is this that you want ? Sam, is it so difficult to stop this in a human and decent way ? You are acting exactly like Anthony Towns did last year, i guess that the DPL position corrupts one after all :( So, if you keep threatening me, like you just did, this only enourages me to continue, and escalate the issue. So, i ask you again as DPL, do something so that the agression and iniquity debian has shown me since a year is stopped, and we can all stop this. This is as easy as a public pronounsement on debian's part that it has erred in the way it has handled this matter, that i am not the sole responsible of it, and a lifting of the unjust sanctions against me. (not the d-i related ones, since we all know the d-i leadership are arrogant bastards who are not emotionally equipped to recognize they maybe share the fault and do the right thing). To which i reply how sorry i was it had to take so long for a decent resolution to this, and how sorry i am to have been forced to pollute everyone's mailing lists, and so on. Then everyone goes back to happily coding forever after, and the issue is forgotten and left to rest. Instead you chose the way of escalation, it will never be forgotten, and it generates frustration and anger, and will constitute a major mess in the future, unless you get me killed to silence me. So, be courageous, and do the right thing in these, and let the issue be solved as it should have over a year ago. And if some threaten to leave the project because i am not punished, then so be it, debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour will only hurt the project again one way or another, and should not be encouraged. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
