Re: commercial spam on planet
On 11/11/10 17:28, Russ Allbery wrote: Not that I have time to do this, but it occurs to me that setting up something fairly similar to Flattr but not involving money would be straightforward. I'm imagining a system where someone can sign up for an account and is automatically given some standard amount of kudos per month, which are then divided among every project that person wants to give kudos to during that month, like Flattr. The difference would be that there would be no money involved, and the kudo accumulation wouldn't be useful for anything other than what you mention: determining what things people like and are interested in. Interesting. I'm not sure I agree though. The only difference between kudos and Euros is that you can buy food and stuff with the latter and not with the former. I don't think that that is the problem behind the idea of Debian contributors earning money. Fundamentally the thing kudos and money have in common is the idea that everybody's contributions gets assigned a relative value by consensus. That's divisive and it also sets a guideline for future contributions - imagine if fixing RC bugs tended to attract 200 kudos, while translation work only got you 50 kudos. This would skew people's priorities in exactly the same way that money would. Cheers, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ibu24d$fk...@dough.gmane.org
Re: commercial spam on planet
On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 08:27:01AM +, Philip Hands wrote: How about making the planet disarm all links that point elsewhere than the same domain as the blog post that contains it? Perhaps a little too draconian? Yes, because there can be genuine reasons for doing so. E.g., when I want to post something about a picture I took, I'm not going to put that picture on my gallery site; I just don't have the bandwidth there to do so. Instead, I'll post it on flickr and include that in the blog post. And since flickr requires me to add a link to the picture page if I do that, I'll follow their terms of use and do so. Yes, that means that flickr will be able to track stuff. And? On the matter at hand: personally, I think that the current situation is not a problem. In my world view, there's a major difference between a link meant to support the author of a blog post on a voluntary basis (such as a flattr link) and an annoying animated GIF that advertises a product or website which doesn't have anything to do with the subject at hand but is shown because some computer program somewhere, based on an AI implementation that is broken by definition[1], believes it does. I am a bit annoyed by the style of Raphaël's posts, which clearly tend to be a bit commercial in nature -- not as in advertising products or similar, but advertising his blog as a medium, to be something that loads of people might be interested in. And though the flattr links don't help in alleviating that annoyance, they're certainly not the source of it. And as such, I don't think that blocking the flattr links will take away my annoyance. Note that this isn't meant to be personal; Raphaël's posts are not the only ones that annoy me, and he is one of a number of authors on Planet Debian whose posts I regularly skip, simply because their style just doesn't agree with me. But since Raphaël's example had already been mentioned in this discussion... I think it's just a matter of personal preference; and while it's a good thing to once in a while check whether the readership of Planet Debian still finds it to be a good medium, my vote currently would not be to change anything. [1] we don't have actual working AI yet, so anything that claims to be AI is broken by definition. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: commercial spam on planet
Dne, 11. 11. 2010 01:23:51 je Stefano Zacchiroli napisal(a): general unhappiness (at least as it appears from this list, which is not necessarily representative of all developers, users, etc., obviously). I'll take the above statement as an invitation to add my 2¢. (As merely a user of Debian, I've never posted to this list before). FWIW It is hard to pinpoint what exactly bothers me with flattr on Debian Planet. It's more a general sense of unease than a well-defined feeling. I can isolate some points though: 1. flattr being a commercial entity (if it were SPI or FSF instead of flattr, I'd have absolutely no problem with it); again, hard to pinpoint exactly why, it's just a gut feeling of mine; 2. flattr telling its users what their minimum monthly expenditure should be (comes across as preposterous; amounts that are negligible for a Westerner, may be prohibitive in some parts of the world); 3. flattr taking 10% of each transaction (definitely greedy; if this was a not-for-profit organization, again, I'd have no problem with giving it 10%, or more; but I'd never click on links that give a *commercial* entity such high margins; and there's no way I'm buying the BS about their reducing the percentage as soon as flattr takes off); 4. Debian being a love child and all that ... I mean, just look at the etymology of its name; I get uneasy when Debian is mixed with activities that are too obviously (or should I say basely) lucrative; there's enough of that out there already, no need to overly pollute Debian Planet too; 5. Given the above reservations, and those already expressed by other posters, how many Debian Planet readers would eventually join flattr? Would it make sense to taint Debian Planet with something that, to say it mildly, is considered dubious by at least some of its readers, just for perhaps a few dozen click-throughs a month? Despite all this, I *strongly* support: -- the general idea that there should be (many, and various) mechanisms enabling users to tangibly thank both the members of the Debian team individually, and the Debian Project as a whole (besides buying pre-packaged Debian CDs and DVDs) -- the proliferation of alternative forms of micropayment enabling netizens to award persons and projects they are grateful to -- by which I mean forms that skip the middle-men and finally enable us to directly thank *the* person, *the* project, without some corporation taking its share on that (yet again). -- it's high time some free/libre micropayment project for replacing PayPal, flattr et al. finally emerged ;-) /FWIW -- Cheerio, Klistvud http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com Certifiable Loonix User #481801 Please reply to the list, not to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1289476904.2740...@compax
Re: commercial spam on planet
Hi Holger, Holger Levsen hol...@layer-acht.org (08/11/2010): since a while, we see unsolicted commercial links and images on planet, mostly about flattr. […] How much spam do you find tolerable? Would it be ok if I sell advertisment space on my blog and syndicate this to planet? You know, I need to eat too... for sure I didn't imagine a 100x17 bitmap was generating so strong reactions. I guess I shall thank you for having started this thread, which showed how many people are annoyed. Feed updated to conform (strictly) to the DMUP, thanks. (I guess I didn't have “financial gain” in mind when I added this link at the bottom of my posts, rather the opportunity to see whether people liked getting status updates about the packages I maintain, or stuff I do in general.) Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: commercial spam on planet
On 2010-11-11, Cyril Brulebois k...@debian.org wrote: at the bottom of my posts, rather the opportunity to see whether people liked getting status updates about the packages I maintain, or stuff I do in general.) it is because I like reading what people do in and outside debian that I read planet. /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/slrnido8t1.rvp.nos...@sshway.ssh.pusling.com
Re: commercial spam on planet
Cyril Brulebois k...@debian.org writes: (I guess I didn't have “financial gain” in mind when I added this link at the bottom of my posts, rather the opportunity to see whether people liked getting status updates about the packages I maintain, or stuff I do in general.) Not that I have time to do this, but it occurs to me that setting up something fairly similar to Flattr but not involving money would be straightforward. I'm imagining a system where someone can sign up for an account and is automatically given some standard amount of kudos per month, which are then divided among every project that person wants to give kudos to during that month, like Flattr. The difference would be that there would be no money involved, and the kudo accumulation wouldn't be useful for anything other than what you mention: determining what things people like and are interested in. I would have absolutely no concerns about such a thing on Planet, provided that the links were constructed such that they didn't become accidental web bugs. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87d3qbn51h@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: commercial spam on planet
On Mon, Nov 08, 2010 at 03:18:39PM +0100, Holger Levsen wrote:
If there is agreement that such content should not be visible on planet, the
filters wouldn't have to be perfect, instead, the people being filtered would
make sure that their flattr-invitations are indeed filtered out.
What do you think?
I'm not particularly happy with the 'flattr this' buttons either. My
main problem is that I find quite difficult to avoid interpreting them
as DMUP violations, specifically about DMUP point don't use Debian
Facilities for private financial gain. It's a very gray area, so I'm
not saying they are DMUP violations (as it's not up to me to judge
that), but I do think those buttons are quite borderline with respect to
one of the principles that DMUP is trying to defend. From this point of
view, blog posts recommending other things to flattr seems way less
problematic (maybe a bit ironically).
Moving forward from my personal view and trying to summarize this
thread, I'd say that most of the participants are OK with sporadic usage
of this kind of spam, but that it is not quite welcome that it becomes
a habit.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
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Re: commercial spam on planet
Hi, On Wed, 10 Nov 2010, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: I'm not particularly happy with the 'flattr this' buttons either. My main problem is that I find quite difficult to avoid interpreting them as DMUP violations, specifically about DMUP point don't use Debian Facilities for private financial gain. It's a very gray area, so I'm not saying they are DMUP violations (as it's not up to me to judge that), but I do think those buttons are quite borderline with respect to one of the principles that DMUP is trying to defend. From this point of view, blog posts recommending other things to flattr seems way less problematic (maybe a bit ironically). Are you going to ask DSA to rule this? AFAIK the DMUP rules were meant to avoid problems that DSA would have to deal with (either legal problems or supplementary useless work). I don't think that the presence or the absence of a flattr button/link is going to make any difference in terms of workload to DSA. It's also clearly not a legal problem. However someone hosting a shop on http://people.debian.org/~foo/ or selling access to a private repository/service that he would setup on a debian.org server is clearly concerned by this rule. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer ◈ [Flattr=20693] Follow my Debian News ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.com (English) ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.fr (Français) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101110152046.ga6...@rivendell.home.ouaza.com
Re: commercial spam on planet
* Raphael Hertzog hert...@debian.org [2010-11-10 16:21]: AFAIK the DMUP rules were meant to avoid problems that DSA would have to deal with (either legal problems or supplementary useless work). I don't think that the presence or the absence of a flattr button/link is going to make any difference in terms of workload to DSA. It's also clearly not a legal problem. So you have already verified that this will not bring any legal or fiscal problems to SPI-INC as well. Would mind sharing the findings? Yours Martin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101110154727.gh4...@anguilla.debian.or.at
Re: commercial spam on planet
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 04:20:46PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
Are you going to ask DSA to rule this?
No, I won't, because (as already mentioned) I concede it's a gray area
and, more importantly, because I believe in a community based on rough
consensus more than on a community based on judges and issues brought
before them.
My next question for you (assuming you accept that a discussion on this
list is enough to decide on this matter---I personally do) is whether
you find that my summary of this thread, given in my former post, is
fair or not.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams
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Re: commercial spam on planet
Hi, On Wed, 10 Nov 2010, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: My next question for you (assuming you accept that a discussion on this list is enough to decide on this matter---I personally do) is whether you find that my summary of this thread, given in my former post, is fair or not. I don't know on what your summary is based. Looking at the replies, we have about 50% persons that wants to filter it and 50% that don't mind keeping them. In this thread, the percentage of people annoyed by the image might be above 50% but some have expressed that it would be less of a problem if it was a picture hosted on the blog (and not on api.flattr.com) or if it was a plain text link. But then I think that this kind of thread mainly gathers interest from annoyed people and that the persons concerned by the complaint prefer to stay away because they have nothing to gain from the discussion. Your summary was: Moving forward from my personal view and trying to summarize this thread, I'd say that most of the participants are OK with sporadic usage of this kind of spam, but that it is not quite welcome that it becomes a habit. That's not really a summary, it's a try at a compromise. Let me also remind you that we're speaking of a small footer added automatically to the RSS feed. It's either activated or not. It's not going to appear from times to times only. Your summary is okay if we're considering posts whose sole content is You know, I'm on Flattr. Please flattr me Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer ◈ [Flattr=20693] Follow my Debian News ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.com (English) ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.fr (Français) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101110162440.gb5...@rivendell.home.ouaza.com
Re: commercial spam on planet
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 05:24:40PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote: Hi, On Wed, 10 Nov 2010, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: My next question for you (assuming you accept that a discussion on this list is enough to decide on this matter---I personally do) is whether you find that my summary of this thread, given in my former post, is fair or not. I don't know on what your summary is based. Looking at the replies, we have about 50% persons that wants to filter it and 50% that don't mind keeping them. In this thread, the percentage of people annoyed by the image might be above 50% but some have expressed that it would be less of a problem if it was a picture hosted on the blog (and not on api.flattr.com) or if it was a plain text link. But then I think that this kind of thread mainly gathers interest from annoyed people and that the persons concerned by the complaint prefer to stay away because they have nothing to gain from the discussion. I am annoyed by the flattr advertisement and I stayed away from the thread becuase my opinion was already represented, not point in repeating them. If you are going do a 'poll' based on the people participating, add 1 to the list of annoyed people. Ana -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101110164920.ga20...@ekaia.org
Re: commercial spam on planet
Ana Guerrero a...@debian.org wrote: I am annoyed by the flattr advertisement and I stayed away from the thread becuase my opinion was already represented, not point in repeating them. If you are going do a 'poll' based on the people participating, add 1 to the list of annoyed people. Same here, plus I share most of what Russ wrote about Flattr early in this discussion. JB. -- Julien BLACHE - Debian GNU/Linux Developer - jbla...@debian.org Public key available on http://www.jblache.org - KeyID: F5D6 5169 GPG Fingerprint : 935A 79F1 C8B3 3521 FD62 7CC7 CD61 4FD7 F5D6 5169 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/871v6tqfbj@sonic.technologeek.org
Re: commercial spam on planet
On 2010-11-10, Julien BLACHE jbla...@debian.org wrote: Ana Guerrero a...@debian.org wrote: I am annoyed by the flattr advertisement and I stayed away from the thread becuase my opinion was already represented, not point in repeating them. If you are going do a 'poll' based on the people participating, add 1 to the list of annoyed people. Same here, plus I share most of what Russ wrote about Flattr early in this discussion. one more /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/slrnidll05.rvp.nos...@sshway.ssh.pusling.com
Re: commercial spam on planet
On 2010-11-10, Stefano Zacchiroli z...@debian.org wrote: I'm not particularly happy with the 'flattr this' buttons either. My main problem is that I find quite difficult to avoid interpreting them as DMUP violations, specifically about DMUP point don't use Debian Facilities for private financial gain. It's a very gray area, so I'm not saying they are DMUP violations (as it's not up to me to judge that), but I do think those buttons are quite borderline with respect to one of the principles that DMUP is trying to defend. From this point of view, blog posts recommending other things to flattr seems way less problematic (maybe a bit ironically). I mentioned my flattr-on-planet opinion elsewhere, but I do not think that it is actually something I would consider a DMUP violation. Just like: - I would like to see if I can live X months doing random debian development if the community will support me. send money here- - I got sacked at work yesterday. anyone misses my skillset: foo bar baz ? Both kind of things is things that I don't mind reading about on planet, and both actually giving the poster some kind of (possible) financial gain. (if all of debian developers were unemployed or tried doing fulltime work based on just community contributions, I might have a different opinion.) /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/slrnidll9s.rvp.nos...@sshway.ssh.pusling.com
Re: commercial spam on planet
Hi! * Sune Vuorela nos...@vuorela.dk [101110 18:19]: I am annoyed by the flattr advertisement and I stayed away from the thread becuase my opinion was already represented, not point in repeating them. If you are going do a 'poll' based on the people participating, add 1 to the list of annoyed people. [..] one more And here is another one. Good, maybe that's enough for this subthread ;) Best Regards, Alexander signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: commercial spam on planet
Ana Guerrero a...@debian.org writes: I am annoyed by the flattr advertisement and I stayed away from the thread becuase my opinion was already represented, not point in repeating them. If you are going do a 'poll' based on the people participating, add 1 to the list of annoyed people. +1 -- \ “I don't know anything about music. In my line you don't have | `\ to.” —Elvis Aaron Presley (1935–1977) | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87vd44bzm1@benfinney.id.au
Re: commercial spam on planet
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 08:20:13PM +0100, Alexander Reichle-Schmehl wrote: Hi! * Sune Vuorela nos...@vuorela.dk [101110 18:19]: I am annoyed by the flattr advertisement and I stayed away from the thread becuase my opinion was already represented, not point in repeating them. If you are going do a 'poll' based on the people participating, add 1 to the list of annoyed people. [..] one more And here is another one. Good, maybe that's enough for this subthread ;) Nope. I want to join the party too: I find flattr clearly commercial and unsuitable for Debian redistribution. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: commercial spam on planet
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 05:24:40PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
I don't know on what your summary is based. Looking at the replies, we
have about 50% persons that wants to filter it and 50% that don't mind
keeping them.
It was based on my own perception of the general feeling, by re-reading
the thread just before posting the summary. Frankly, I still read the
vast majority of the contributions to the thread as, at best, perceiving
buttons like flattr as border line acceptable and/or as acceptable only
on a sporadic basis rather than as a habit.
Of course, my perception might be biased by the fact that I personally
feel that way too. I would have double-/triple-checked or asked for the
evaluation of someone else, if subsequent answers hadn't come to confirm
general unhappiness (at least as it appears from this list, which is not
necessarily representative of all developers, users, etc., obviously).
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 08:45:22PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
So it's now clear that this thread is only about flattr buttons. Quite a few
people explained that they are (at varying level) annoyed by them. I would
like to know _why_ those buttons annoy them.
I disagree that this thread is flattr-specific.
It clearly is the most cited example, most likely because is what we all
have in mind and because Flattr is quite popular these days. Still, I
don't think anybody is trying to decide a policy about flattr only.
Rather, I think we're taking the chance that recent flattr experiences
have given us to establish a more general policy.
For what is worth, I've seen in the past instances of AdSense ending up
on planet, and I had the same problem with them that I have right now
with Flattr.
To get a clear feedback I'd like to setup a poll (with selectricity.org)
so that people who have chosen to put those buttons can decide what to do
(or not).
Interesting experiment, I'm curious as well, thanks!
It's going to be a condorcet-based poll where you have to rank the
following statements: I'm annoyed by Flattr buttons because
* Debian contributors should not make money from posts syndicated on
planet.
I don't think this one is properly worded (assuming we've in mind the
same underlying option here). For instance, it seems to rule out the
possibility that a blog author makes money from a specific blog post via
its own blog, while having the same blog post syndicated on planet (but
without ads).
Unfortunately, I haven't found a decent wording to capture that yet ...
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams
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Re: commercial spam on planet
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 01:23:51 +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: I disagree that this thread is flattr-specific. /me too. It clearly is the most cited example, most likely because is what we all have in mind and because Flattr is quite popular these days. Still, I don't think anybody is trying to decide a policy about flattr only. Rather, I think we're taking the chance that recent flattr experiences have given us to establish a more general policy. A policy on what exactly? Or, in other words: I'm not sure what the actual contents of this thread is at the moment. Topics/issues I've seen so far: * commercial activities (flattr, adsense, ...) * webbugs/tracking (flattr, feedburner, ...) * annoying footers with images (flattr, social networks, ...) My impression is that these (and probably more) issues are mixed, which doesn't make the discussion easier ... Cheers, gregor -- .''`. http://info.comodo.priv.at/ -- GPG key IDs: 0x8649AA06, 0x00F3CFE4 : :' : Debian GNU/Linux user, admin, developer - http://www.debian.org/ `. `' Member of VIBE!AT SPI, fellow of Free Software Foundation Europe `-NP: Pink Floyd: The trial signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: commercial spam on planet
I even encourage users to use flattr to support free software with one blog post per month. Is this spam according to you? Do it once in a while for whatever other project and there is not much reason to complain. I don't understand. I have recommended 5 projects using Flattr every month and they were all unrelated to me. And even if you don't use Flattr, those posts can be interesting since they introduce you some free software that you might not know and that you might want to try out. And that posts alone are not a problem. Nor are any of your other posts. The flattr links so you get money, those are. What I do is to provide a link for people that like my posts to support my work. It's not very intrusive IMO. Its very much jumping into the view of any planet reader. For some value of any. Planet has a big audience, articles are seen by more than 3 persons so it's difficult to speak for them. How do you get that number? If you look around on the web, you will find that adding a small footer in the RSS feed is a common practice at least to add link to social sharing services. And? While all of them are utterly useless and crap, you dont earn money with facebook/twitter/anyothershit. (all of them SHOULD be filtered out, but as this starts a race between the crap social services and the multitude of links and planet maintainers thats not a step i WANT to take. (Filtered just on the ground that most of them link to icons stored on the social crap servers, which enables them to make nice profiles of whoever reads planet (or whichever other side it appears). Whoever thinks thats ok needs to be shot.) maybe we should filter ALL external links, but thats also extreme. (Goodbye pictures. meh) ) I think we as a project should not tolerate such, agree so, and provide simple filter mechanisms, so that people can continue to have these links in _their_ blog posts, while they are filtered out on http://planet.debian.org No. I would want it to be the same as with other languages - the feed owner is responsible to provide a feed that is clean of this. What do you mean with other languages? Do the non-English Planet Debian have stricter rules than the English one? I didnt wrote about other planets, i wrote other languages. I tried to look up but did not find anything on http://wiki.debian.org/PlanetDebian or http://blog.ganneff.de/blog/2008/12/21/planet-i18n.html What Can I Post On Planet, two rules, point 1. The occasional post in whatever other language than english is fine. Continuously its not. Its on a debian resource, so the DMUP can hold up. Dont make money with Debian resources. Obviously with flattr you make. It's not obvious, the fact that Planet syndicates content doesn't mean that my articles are a Debian property. I have the right to make money from my freely-available content. The fact that you add your rss feed to the planet config and as such willingly have it displayed to everyone from a Debian resource *is*. Also I am making money by net-installing Debian from Debian-owned servers (for my customers), is this a DMUP violation? I don't think so. You are using the mirrors. For whatever your own side. You are not pushing a pay me link into every other users view that use the same service. -- bye, Joerg Gna, schon wieder Seti [...] Dabei ist es schon schwierig genug, auf *diesem* Planeten intelligentes Leben zu finden. [Charly Kuehnast in dasr] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87eiaurjlj@gkar.ganneff.de
Re: commercial spam on planet
On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 02:26:25 +0200, Faidon Liambotis parav...@debian.org wrote: Holger Levsen wrote: since a while, we see unsolicted commercial links and images on planet, mostly about flattr. ... On the issue at hand, my personal view is that I am a bit annoyed by the flattr “ads” on Planet as well, but not that much that I'd raise it as a subject for discussion as you did. Likewise, I'd not have raised it, but seeing the ads has been like a very mild case of toothache for me -- but that was before I considered that the people putting the link to an image from http://api.flattr.com/ on their pages are actually leaking my browsing habits to flattr, as Joerg points out. Yes, I could AdBlock flattr, as could all other readers of planet, but I don't really see why I should have to. So, well done for raising the issue Holger. I think the thing that makes the links more irritating is the fact that they are a graphic in a sea of text, so they really catch the eye. I'd probably have less of an issue with them if they were rendered as a simple link, especially since that would not involve an information leak. How about making the planet disarm all links that point elsewhere than the same domain as the blog post that contains it? Perhaps a little too draconian? Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/ |-| HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/ |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND pgpCyIqc6nUEX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: commercial spam on planet
On Tue, 09 Nov 2010, Joerg Jaspert wrote: For some value of any. Planet has a big audience, articles are seen by more than 3 persons so it's difficult to speak for them. How do you get that number? Feedburner statistics. But I was wrong, it's not that many. That numbers includes also Planet Ubuntu and any RSS reader (it's the number I gave in [1]). I looked it up and my post popular article has been viewed 13000 times through http://planet.debian.org or http://planet.debian.net so this is without people following Planet via RSS. But a given article might be viewed multiple times by the same person given that everything is on the same webpage on planet.debian.org and that you load the pages regularly if you follow it from the web. But it's still a number which is largely superior to the number of developers. [1] http://raphaelhertzog.com/2010/10/25/secret-figures-of-a-debian-ubuntu-blogger-what-you-liked-most/ BTW you complain that a flattr image allows flattr to track your browsing habits when there are many other stuff tracking you already and that are not so visible, like feedburner. What do you mean with other languages? Do the non-English Planet Debian have stricter rules than the English one? I didnt wrote about other planets, i wrote other languages. Ok, you meant posts written in other languages are not allowed in the feed. It's not really comparable to a footer, but ok I understand what you meant. On Tue, 09 Nov 2010, Philip Hands wrote: How about making the planet disarm all links that point elsewhere than the same domain as the blog post that contains it? Perhaps a little too draconian? IMO, it's too draconian, indeed. Even if you restrict this to picture. Exactly the same problem exists with HTML mails and many mail-readers don't load pictures by default for this reason. While I can understand the privacy concerns, and while I support that Debian provides software that by default protect the privacy of users, I don't think that Debian needs to have an official policy on this topic as far as Planet Debian is concerned. When you're reading blogs or any web page, you know that you leave many traces and it's a choice of the user about how much to accept, by using or not the extensions that are meant to mitigate this problem. BTW, I would be happy if I could self-host a feedburner like service to gather my stats and avoid leaking that information to third parties. But AFAIK there's no free software doing this currently. And I don't want to write it myself. And I need this because I'm trying to be professional about my blogging activities and I need figures to see how my articles are doing and whether I'm on the right track or not. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer ◈ [Flattr=20693] Follow my Debian News ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.com (English) ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.fr (Français) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101109094140.gb29...@rivendell.home.ouaza.com
Re: commercial spam on planet
Raphael Hertzog, 2010-11-09 10:41:40 +0100 : [...] BTW you complain that a flattr image allows flattr to track your browsing habits when there are many other stuff tracking you already and that are not so visible, like feedburner. I also complain about them, but their existence doesn't excuse adding more of them. [...] While I can understand the privacy concerns, and while I support that Debian provides software that by default protect the privacy of users, I don't think that Debian needs to have an official policy on this topic as far as Planet Debian is concerned. When you're reading blogs or any web page, you know that you leave many traces and it's a choice of the user about how much to accept, by using or not the extensions that are meant to mitigate this problem. Let me disagree there. This argument is similar to the “oh, but you can always opt-out of our spam^Wnewsletter by clicking here” argument. Annoying stuff, whether ads or spying, should be opt-in, period. If the source insists on making it opt-out, then I'm in favour of filtering it at the intermediary stage (the aggregator, in this case). BTW, I would be happy if I could self-host a feedburner like service to gather my stats and avoid leaking that information to third parties. But AFAIK there's no free software doing this currently. And I don't want to write it myself. And I need this because I'm trying to be professional about my blogging activities and I need figures to see how my articles are doing and whether I'm on the right track or not. Do I read this correctly as meaning that you consider this spying on Planet Debian's readers' browsing habits a feature that you use for professional purposes? If so, I'm inclined to disagree vehemently with it. If not, please correct my misapprehension. Roland. -- Roland Mas $ chown -R us:us your_base* -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/871v6u7oqa@mirexpress.internal.placard.fr.eu.org
commercial spam on planet
Hi, since a while, we see unsolicted commercial links and images on planet, mostly about flattr. I think we as a project should not tolerate such, agree so, and provide simple filter mechanisms, so that people can continue to have these links in _their_ blog posts, while they are filtered out on http://planet.debian.org If there is agreement that such content should not be visible on planet, the filters wouldn't have to be perfect, instead, the people being filtered would make sure that their flattr-invitations are indeed filtered out. What do you think? How much spam do you find tolerable? Would it be ok if I sell advertisment space on my blog and syndicate this to planet? You know, I need to eat too... cheers, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: commercial spam on planet
Holger Levsen hol...@layer-acht.org writes: How much spam do you find tolerable? Would it be ok if I sell advertisment space on my blog and syndicate this to planet? You know, I need to eat too... Where I personally draw the line is that I'm fairly comfortable with Debian-involved people advertising their own services on Planet Debian: their own companies, their own consulting services, their own posts, and so forth. I would start getting very annoyed if syndicated blogs contained advertising for third parties. The stuff pushing Flattr directly is sort of borderline since it verges on multi-level marketing, but it's also a little like asking for donations using PayPal. It does advertise PayPal in a way, but only ancillary to the core purpose. (This is entirely apart from the question of whether Flattr is a good idea. Personally, I think it's a scam and am surprised by how many people are endorsing it. But one of the points of Planet Debian is that it includes all of the project, in all of our disagreements.) -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87pqufoeca@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: commercial spam on planet
Hi, On Mon, 08 Nov 2010, Russ Allbery wrote: Where I personally draw the line is that I'm fairly comfortable with Debian-involved people advertising their own services on Planet Debian: their own companies, their own consulting services, their own posts, and so forth. I would start getting very annoyed if syndicated blogs contained advertising for third parties. I agree with the general logic but you can't apply this rule blindly. You post book reviews from time to time, so you're advertising products of third parties. I find those OK. And they would still be OK for me even if you provided affiliate links to amazon as part of those articles. Somehow you need to take into account how often this happens, whether the article provide value for a majority of planet readers, etc. It's difficult to set a clear limit. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer ◈ [Flattr=20693] Follow my Debian News ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.com (English) ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.fr (Français) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101108203132.gd26...@rivendell.home.ouaza.com
Re: commercial spam on planet
Raphael Hertzog hert...@debian.org writes: On Mon, 08 Nov 2010, Russ Allbery wrote: Where I personally draw the line is that I'm fairly comfortable with Debian-involved people advertising their own services on Planet Debian: their own companies, their own consulting services, their own posts, and so forth. I would start getting very annoyed if syndicated blogs contained advertising for third parties. I agree with the general logic but you can't apply this rule blindly. You post book reviews from time to time, so you're advertising products of third parties. I find those OK. Endorsements of third-party products aren't the same thing, to me, as advertising. The key difference is whether I get paid to do it, which I don't. I'm endorsing (or not endorsing) a book because I think it's a good product, no different than if I suggested people buy a particular model of computer. I think that if I'm getting paid to make that endorsement, it becomes questionable content for Planet Debian unless it's my own personal product. And they would still be OK for me even if you provided affiliate links to amazon as part of those articles. I would not do this; for myself personally, I'd consider it unethical. I do have affiliate codes on the links to Powell's if one clicks all the way through to my permanent pages (for reasons explained on my review philosophy page), but I would never put those into my RSS feeds. Somehow you need to take into account how often this happens, whether the article provide value for a majority of planet readers, etc. It's difficult to set a clear limit. I personally would set the limit where I stated above, with the caveat about how I'm defining advertising, and for me affiliate links would be over that line. Probably not far enough over the line for me to complain about it here, since they're very inobtrusive and I'm probably going to only actually complain about things that make Planet Debian obnoxious to read, but if someone asked me if they were okay for Planet Debian, I personally would say no. Other people will draw the line in different places. I personally loathe advertising and aggressively filter it out of my web browsing experience, and get particularly upset if people try to shove it in my face. Other people have a less extreme reaction. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87wronmt3k@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: commercial spam on planet
On 12293 March 1977, Holger Levsen wrote: I think we as a project should not tolerate such, agree so, and provide simple filter mechanisms, so that people can continue to have these links in _their_ blog posts, while they are filtered out on http://planet.debian.org No. I would want it to be the same as with other languages - the feed owner is responsible to provide a feed that is clean of this. What do you think? I think that the flattr stuff is at best annoying, at worst i cant even imagine how bad. Especially with the idioticy of many who link to flattr that tell flattr anything about the people browsing the web - by linking the image from flattr servers. Stupido extremo. How much spam do you find tolerable? Would it be ok if I sell advertisment space on my blog and syndicate this to planet? You know, I need to eat too... Its on a debian resource, so the DMUP can hold up. Dont make money with Debian resources. Obviously with flattr you make. There is a very big grey area though. What about someone writing a book about Debian? Someone doing Debian for paid work and blogging about it? They get money from it - not on planet? No. I think it depends on the amount of it. A one time hey, i wrote this book / hey, im on flattr, in case you care... and such should be ok. Regularly having this at every post - not. -- bye, Joerg (somewhere im having my planet@ hat :) ) [...] While Debian is certainly about beer, and in some cases may even be about free beer, Debian is mainly about free speech. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8762w7y1k2@gkar.ganneff.de
Re: commercial spam on planet
On Mon, Nov 08, 2010 at 09:31:32PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote: Somehow you need to take into account how often this happens, whether the article provide value for a majority of planet readers, etc. It's difficult to set a clear limit. To me that's the real test. If it looks like there are a series of articles and all they seem to be about is 'give me money' then it doesn't seem right to have it on planet. If the focus is more about the thing being talked about and flattr or whatever is a side-line it doesn't seem too bad. In the 15 years of writing Free Software, I've not really asked for anything. I'm quite happy with that. It doesn't mean I think everyone MUST be the same, so a little solicitation is ok. - Craig -- Craig Small GnuPG:1C1B D893 1418 2AF4 45EE 95CB C76C E5AC 12CA DFA5 http://www.enc.com.au/ csmall at : enc.com.au http://www.debian.org/ Debian GNU/Linux, software should be Free -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101108215933.ga11...@enc.com.au
Re: commercial spam on planet
Hi, On Montag, 8. November 2010, Joerg Jaspert wrote: No. I would want it to be the same as with other languages - the feed owner is responsible to provide a feed that is clean of this. sounds like a good solution to me. I think it depends on the amount of it. A one time hey, i wrote this book / hey, im on flattr, in case you care... and such should be ok. Regularly having this at every post - not. agreed. cheers, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: commercial spam on planet
Hi, On Mon, 08 Nov 2010, Joerg Jaspert wrote: You should be. *IMO* your posts are VERY annoying with the support my work, give me money money money below them, sometimes very much looking to be written just to spread another round of flattr links. Might not be the intention, but feels like it to me. I am definitely trying to build an audience for my blog. But I try to do it by writing interesting content (both for users and for contributors) and hoping that people share those articles and that people subscribe to one of the ways to stay in touch afterwards (and in particular my own newsletter). While earning some money with Flattr is nice, it's definitely not (yet?) a good way to compensate for the time spent (from Flattr I get around 25 EUR per month for my blog articles, and I spend at least 2 hours per article written). So no, earning money with Flattr is not the main motivation behind my articles. I even encourage users to use flattr to support free software with one blog post per month. Is this spam according to you? Do it once in a while for whatever other project and there is not much reason to complain. I don't understand. I have recommended 5 projects using Flattr every month and they were all unrelated to me. And even if you don't use Flattr, those posts can be interesting since they introduce you some free software that you might not know and that you might want to try out. What I do is to provide a link for people that like my posts to support my work. It's not very intrusive IMO. Its very much jumping into the view of any planet reader. For some value of any. Planet has a big audience, articles are seen by more than 3 persons so it's difficult to speak for them. If you look around on the web, you will find that adding a small footer in the RSS feed is a common practice at least to add link to social sharing services. There's a balance to find, I dislike when people put google ads in their feeds, or when they put 5 auto-generated links to related articles that usually are not so related anyway. I'm ok when they put social links (including flattr buttons) or a custom text snippet. On Mon, 08 Nov 2010, Joerg Jaspert wrote: On 12293 March 1977, Holger Levsen wrote: I think we as a project should not tolerate such, agree so, and provide simple filter mechanisms, so that people can continue to have these links in _their_ blog posts, while they are filtered out on http://planet.debian.org No. I would want it to be the same as with other languages - the feed owner is responsible to provide a feed that is clean of this. What do you mean with other languages? Do the non-English Planet Debian have stricter rules than the English one? I tried to look up but did not find anything on http://wiki.debian.org/PlanetDebian or http://blog.ganneff.de/blog/2008/12/21/planet-i18n.html How much spam do you find tolerable? Would it be ok if I sell advertisment space on my blog and syndicate this to planet? You know, I need to eat too... Its on a debian resource, so the DMUP can hold up. Dont make money with Debian resources. Obviously with flattr you make. It's not obvious, the fact that Planet syndicates content doesn't mean that my articles are a Debian property. I have the right to make money from my freely-available content. Also I am making money by net-installing Debian from Debian-owned servers (for my customers), is this a DMUP violation? I don't think so. In both cases, Debian resources just forward content. There is a very big grey area though. What about someone writing a book about Debian? Someone doing Debian for paid work and blogging about it? They get money from it - not on planet? No. Great to hear that, I'm likely to be concerned by both your examples. :-) I think it depends on the amount of it. A one time hey, i wrote this book / hey, im on flattr, in case you care... and such should be ok. Regularly having this at every post - not. If it's the main content of every post, I agree with you. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer ◈ [Flattr=20693] Follow my Debian News ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.com (English) ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.fr (Français) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101109074619.ga22...@rivendell.home.ouaza.com
