Re: message from Sven Luther
Marc Haber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If it is something new, by all means, post it. Mike Bird [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] You are solely responsible for the content of the messages you post. You must decide whether you will post any given message to the list. Sven is banned from posting to the list. He is not banned from asking you to post material for him, and you are not banned from posting messages quoting material from Sven. Whether or not you are forwarding material from somebody who is banned from posting to the list is irrelevant, provided you have that person's permission to forward the material. I agree with both the above sentiments. If he has something constructive to add to something other than the previous disagreements, then by all means, lets us hear what he has to say. If he has a good point, and we never hear it, that does not do any good. IANADD, IANAL -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: message from Sven Luther
Le samedi 30 juin 2007 à 10:58 +0100, MJ Ray a écrit : Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le vendredi 29 juin 2007 à 15:51 +0200, Robert Millan a écrit : Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will make it by the slashdot way. We don't negociate with terrorists. That's daft. If you leave people with no outlet, they will explode and it will be messy. Anyway, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. When they are being reasonable enough for you, reward them with negotiation and encourage them to be more reasonable. Otherwise, shut them down as much as possible and hope the explosions will be seen as unreasonable, but don't try to spin the people as unreasonable, else the backlash makes it less likely to be seen that way. My Opinion Only, as ever. I have spent a lot of time trying to help Sven Luther negociate, but that was at times where he *was* reasonable. Not threatening to make it by the slashdot way. -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: message from Sven Luther
Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le vendredi 29 juin 2007 à 15:51 +0200, Robert Millan a écrit : Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will make it by the slashdot way. We don't negociate with terrorists. That's daft. If you leave people with no outlet, they will explode and it will be messy. Anyway, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. When they are being reasonable enough for you, reward them with negotiation and encourage them to be more reasonable. Otherwise, shut them down as much as possible and hope the explosions will be seen as unreasonable, but don't try to spin the people as unreasonable, else the backlash makes it less likely to be seen that way. My Opinion Only, as ever. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
message from Sven Luther
Sven Luther requested me to forward a message to this list for him. The message is political in nature, but its tone is not something that I would find offensive or rude. I'm aware that Sven is banned, so if someone thinks I should not forward it, please say it now. If nobody objects after a reasonable period of time, I will send it. Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will make it by the slashdot way. Whatever that means, I don't personaly think being publicly discredited by our mistakes is something we want as a community. Please note that this message doesn't imply agreement with his methods. I'm merely the messenger, so don't blame me. OTOH, I can understand why a person who has been forcibly silenced would react this way. Then again, if someone objects to it, just let me know and I won't send it. Thanks -- Robert Millan My spam trap is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note: this address is only intended for spam harvesters. Writing to it will get you added to my black list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: message from Sven Luther
On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 03:51:32PM +0200, Robert Millan wrote: I don't personaly think being publicly discredited by our mistakes is something we want as a community. Being publicly discreditted for our mistakes seems like exactly the right thing to happen to me, actually. Helps discourage us from making mistakes in future, helps other people avoid making the same mistakes, helps people understand how Debian works. That's why we have a publically available BTS, do our development in public, try to avoid using private lists, etc, after all... Cheers, aj signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: message from Sven Luther
On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 03:51:32PM +0200, Robert Millan wrote: Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will make it by the slashdot way. Whatever that means, I don't personaly think being publicly discredited by our mistakes is something we want as a community. Update: Sven wants to make it clear that he doesn't intend to threaten, just that in the current situation, he sees no way to pass important messages otherwise, and given the discussion about the social committee he thinks this deserved to be said. Please excuse me if my message didn't represent this tone, -- Robert Millan My spam trap is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note: this address is only intended for spam harvesters. Writing to it will get you added to my black list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: message from Sven Luther
Robert Millan wrote: Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will make it by the slashdot way. Whatever that means, I don't personaly think being publicly discredited by our mistakes is something we want as a community. It's also something we as a community cannot change anymore, and it's also documented quite verbosely on our mailing lists. Regards, Joey -- Life is a lot easier when you have someone to share it with. -- Sean Perry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: message from Sven Luther
Em Sex, 2007-06-29 às 15:51 +0200, Robert Millan escreveu: The message is political in nature, but its tone is not something that I would find offensive or rude. I personally think this has already been discussed ad nauseam for the past months, without any indication that a reasonable outcome would be possible - otherwise we wouldn't have got where we got, IMHO - and that it is an unnecessary burden on the project's productivity since the last settlements. I'm aware that Sven is banned, so if someone thinks I should not forward it, please say it now. If nobody objects after a reasonable period of time, I will send it. IIRC, Sven was banned from the lists to prevent the flood due to his, let's say, awkward method of debating and getting what he wants, that is, to avoid the flood, not as means of censoring his ideas or anything. Hence, I don't think forwarding one message contradicts the ban. Up to this point, my statements just mean I would not forward the message myself, not that I strongly object to it being forwarded. However... Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will make it by the slashdot way. Whatever that means, I don't personaly think being publicly discredited by our mistakes is something we want as a community. I'm sorry, but in my dictionary that translates as blackmail. *THAT* I don't think the Debian Project or any of its members should accept. If he is overly prejudicial or distorts the facts in public, we might just as well respond to them, either with words or with actions. It's surely a lot of work and headache, but I think it's better than accepting these threats. Please note that this message doesn't imply agreement with his methods. I'm merely the messenger, so don't blame me. OTOH, I can understand why a person who has been forcibly silenced would react this way. But I don't think the silencing is to blame either, as I guess we are well aware of the reason why he was forcibly silenced. Regards, -- Guilherme de S. Pastore [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: message from Sven Luther
On Friday 29 June 2007 15:51, Robert Millan wrote: Please note that this message doesn't imply agreement with his methods. I'm merely the messenger, so don't blame me. OTOH, I can understand why a person who has been forcibly silenced would react this way. I don't think you can say I'm merely the messenger. If you decide to forward any message from anyone who is banned from a particular list, you assume responsibility for its content and the effects that that message will have. Personally I do reserve the right to blame you for anything that _you_ send to the list, be it written by yourself or forwarded on request of somebody else (same goes for anybody else for that matter). There is also no reason to accept the message as is. If there is anything in the message that you feel is unsuitable for the list, you should discuss that with Sven and, if at all possible, get him to change it, before forwarding it. Again, by forwarding it _you_ take responsibility for the content of the message. Personally I would probably evaluate the message based on something like the following criteria, and decide based on that: - does the message really add something to the discussion - is the opinion of the sender really relevant for the project and its members, taking into account the status of the sender in the project - is there anything in the message that is likely to offend members of the project or other people reading the mailing list - is there anything in the message that could lead to a flamewar instead of a useful discussion Personally I would prefer not to see any messages from Sven on the Debian mailing lists, but it is your call. Cheers, FJP pgpufrrmgOZYn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: message from Sven Luther
* Robert Millan ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I'm aware that Sven is banned, so if someone thinks I should not forward it, please say it now. If nobody objects after a reasonable period of time, I will send it. I don't think you should forward it. Then again, if someone objects to it, just let me know and I won't send it. I object. We've wasted enough time with this already. If it's actually *important* (which I strongly doubt) and has some relevance (isn't about Sven or the ban or things which are done and settled) then (if you're willing to) recast it in your own words, as your own statement, and maybe mention that you heard about it from Sven or whatever. If you're not willing to do that then I seriously doubt it passed either of the other tests mentioned. Thanks, Stephen signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: message from Sven Luther
On Friday 29 June 2007 06:51, Robert Millan wrote: Sven Luther requested me to forward a message to this list for him. (snip) I'm aware that Sven is banned, so if someone thinks I should not forward it, please say it now. If nobody objects after a reasonable period of time, I will send it. Robert, You are solely responsible for the content of the messages you post. You must decide whether you will post any given message to the list. Sven is banned from posting to the list. He is not banned from asking you to post material for him, and you are not banned from posting messages quoting material from Sven. Whether or not you are forwarding material from somebody who is banned from posting to the list is irrelevant, provided you have that person's permission to forward the material. Stephen Frost wrote that you should recast Sven's material in your own words. Stephen is in error on this point. Recasting is permissible but it is certainly not required. You are solely responsible for the content of the messages you post. You must decide whether you will post any given message to the list. --Mike Bird -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: message from Sven Luther
On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 03:51:32PM +0200, Robert Millan wrote: The message is political in nature, but its tone is not something that I would find offensive or rude. I'm aware that Sven is banned, so if someone thinks I should not forward it, please say it now. If nobody objects after a reasonable period of time, I will send it. Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will make it by the slashdot way. If this is just the umpteenth re-hash of his well-known arguments about his right to directly commit to d-i, I would prefer if he would carry this to Slashdot. I strongly suspect that Slashdot wouldn't carry the story anyway. If it is something new, by all means, post it. Your call. Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things.Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 3221 2323190 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: message from Sven Luther
On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 11:04:01AM -0300, Guilherme de S. Pastore wrote: Em Sex, 2007-06-29 às 15:51 +0200, Robert Millan escreveu: The message is political in nature, but its tone is not something that I would find offensive or rude. I personally think this has already been discussed ad nauseam for the past months, without any indication that a reasonable outcome would be possible - otherwise we wouldn't have got where we got, IMHO - and that it is an unnecessary burden on the project's productivity since the last settlements. To clarify, in the message Sven doesn't talk about himself at all. He just makes points about his opinion on the Social Committe proposal. They could be points made by anyone else. Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will make it by the slashdot way. Whatever that means, I don't personaly think being publicly discredited by our mistakes is something we want as a community. I'm sorry, but in my dictionary that translates as blackmail. *THAT* I don't think the Debian Project or any of its members should accept. If he is overly prejudicial or distorts the facts in public, we might just as well respond to them, either with words or with actions. It's surely a lot of work and headache, but I think it's better than accepting these threats. Please excuse me for not representing him properly in my previous mail. He asked me to clarify that this wasn't at all intended as a threat. OTOH, I can understand why a person who has been forcibly silenced would react this way. But I don't think the silencing is to blame either, as I guess we are well aware of the reason why he was forcibly silenced. Blame is meaningless here. Someone who's been forcibly silenced will try to find other ways to speak out. It's a very human behaviour, and wether he's right or not about what he has to say doesn't change this. -- Robert Millan My spam trap is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note: this address is only intended for spam harvesters. Writing to it will get you added to my black list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: message from Sven Luther
On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 10:41:13AM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: [...] (if you're willing to) recast it in your own words, as your own statement, and maybe mention that you heard about it from Sven or whatever. If you're not willing to do that then I seriously doubt it passed either of the other tests mentioned. Hi Stephen, As others have said, it is not fair to put on me the extra burden of recasting the message in my own words. Plus, I don't think it does really archieve anything. -- Robert Millan My spam trap is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note: this address is only intended for spam harvesters. Writing to it will get you added to my black list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: message from Sven Luther
On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 04:34:21PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote: On Friday 29 June 2007 15:51, Robert Millan wrote: Please note that this message doesn't imply agreement with his methods. I'm merely the messenger, so don't blame me. OTOH, I can understand why a person who has been forcibly silenced would react this way. I don't think you can say I'm merely the messenger. If you decide to forward any message from anyone who is banned from a particular list, you assume responsibility for its content and the effects that that message will have. Personally I do reserve the right to blame you for anything that _you_ send to the list, be it written by yourself or forwarded on request of somebody else (same goes for anybody else for that matter). There is also no reason to accept the message as is. If there is anything in the message that you feel is unsuitable for the list, you should discuss that with Sven and, if at all possible, get him to change it, before forwarding it. Again, by forwarding it _you_ take responsibility for the content of the message. Hi Frans, I want to make it clear that I don't agree with the ban. I don't intend to start a discussion over this, but I think it's important to be honest, so I had to mention that. That said, I appreciate that you are taking a stance that is (at least seemingly so) disconnected from your personal involvement in previous conflicts with Sven. I'll assume responsability for Sven's words if that's necessary for him to speak. Thank you -- Robert Millan My spam trap is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note: this address is only intended for spam harvesters. Writing to it will get you added to my black list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: message from Sven Luther
* Robert Millan ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: As others have said, it is not fair to put on me the extra burden of recasting the message in my own words. Plus, I don't think it does really archieve anything. Then don't post it, and please stop this thread (by not replying further). Thanks, Stephen signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: message from Sven Luther
Robert Millan wrote: Sven Luther requested me to forward a message to this list for him. I have no problem with you forwarding a message. I would caution you that it is likely you would be held responsible and liable for the content, but if it breaks no (un)written rules, you should be okay. NB: I have not followed the Sven saga, though I have sampled a bit at some of the threads. -- John H. Robinson, IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] http WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above, sbih.org ( )(:[ as apparently my cats have learned how to type. spiders.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: message from Sven Luther
On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 09:49:23AM -0700, John H. Robinson, IV wrote: Robert Millan wrote: Sven Luther requested me to forward a message to this list for him. I have no problem with you forwarding a message. I would caution you that it is likely you would be held responsible and liable for the content, but if it breaks no (un)written rules, you should be okay. NB: I have not followed the Sven saga, though I have sampled a bit at some of the threads. -- John H. Robinson, IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] http WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above, sbih.org ( )(:[ as apparently my cats have learned how to type. spiders.html Heh, can cats learn how to forward mail? I could use a disclaimer like yours. :-) -- Robert Millan My spam trap is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note: this address is only intended for spam harvesters. Writing to it will get you added to my black list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
