Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
Hi, po 17. 8. 2020 v 21:15 odesílatel Sandro Tosi napsal: > To these days, this is still happening! can we finally get rid of > this? Piotr, it looks like you're the admin of the mailing list, can > you take care of it please? thanks! > yes, please, please, please, please. -- Best regards Ondřej Nový
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
To these days, this is still happening! can we finally get rid of this? Piotr, it looks like you're the admin of the mailing list, can you take care of it please? thanks! On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 5:44 AM Ondrej Novy wrote: > > Hi, > > 2018-06-10 1:35 GMT+02:00 Sandro Tosi : >> >> this is still happening, and it looks like more frequently than before >> - can we please disable this option once and for all? > > > +1. Please. > >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 9:46 AM Sandro Tosi wrote: >> > I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam > > > me too. > > -- > Best regards > Ondřej Nový > > Email: n...@ondrej.org > PGP: 3D98 3C52 EB85 980C 46A5 6090 3573 1255 9D1E 064B > -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi Twitter: https://twitter.com/sandrotosi
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
Hi, 2018-06-10 1:35 GMT+02:00 Sandro Tosi : > this is still happening, and it looks like more frequently than before > - can we please disable this option once and for all? > +1. Please. > > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 9:46 AM Sandro Tosi wrote: > > I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam > me too. -- Best regards Ondřej Nový Email: n...@ondrej.org PGP: 3D98 3C52 EB85 980C 46A5 6090 3573 1255 9D1E 064B
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
this is still happening, and it looks like more frequently than before - can we please disable this option once and for all? thanks On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 9:46 AM Sandro Tosi wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:19 PM, > wrote: > > Your membership in the mailing list Python-modules-team has been > > disabled due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you > > was dated 10-Sep-2016. You will not get any more messages from this > > list until you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more > > reminders like this before your membership in the list is deleted. > > I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam > emails and that what causes this problem. I'm experiencing this more > and more frequently. > > can we turn off the auto-membershp-disable feature for our mailing list? > > Thanks, > -- > Sandro "morph" Tosi > My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ > Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi > G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SandroTosi -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SandroTosi
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Friday, September 23, 2016 04:15:23 PM Thomas Goirand wrote: > On 09/10/2016 05:34 PM, Santiago Vila wrote: > > The "[Python-modules-team]" thing in the subject is probably enough to > > break the DKIM signature. > > I don't believe DKIM signature is done on the header+body. If I'm not > mistaking, it's done only in the body of the mail, because each SMTP > server on the way to your inbox can add a "Received:" field, so you can > trace the email. > > So yes, footers in emails can break stuff, but not mangling subject, > which is part of the metadata. Not correct. In DKIM there is a header hash and a body hash that are calculated separately. If either changes, then signature verification will fail. You can control which header fields are included, but ~everyone includes subject. Scott K
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
❦ 23 septembre 2016 16:15 CEST, Thomas Goirand: >> The "[Python-modules-team]" thing in the subject is probably enough to >> break the DKIM signature. > > I don't believe DKIM signature is done on the header+body. If I'm not > mistaking, it's done only in the body of the mail, because each SMTP > server on the way to your inbox can add a "Received:" field, so you can > trace the email. > > So yes, footers in emails can break stuff, but not mangling subject, > which is part of the metadata. DKIM can also be done on the headers (and usually is). The DKIM signature contains the list of headers that were used for the signature. See the headers of the message from Sandro: #v+ DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=aIVZ7A5RI8js3S6zxiwDgAgKRvn7VlX7UW8naQXAUxk=; b=yWundTut0iTb/fNwkvU0hu4v5+s6vQW/pZN4gGZQpV7exzsUGKHjYs8BTCobNWvpEI DugPdBz8MszdzoibvUW6vNij26BS+uh6xFmBfUj26xAWJKGpXzYvqGkfQ2FfTkZi6Dvf PlBuHkrzyt8E8FoiD9i+ZIy5VTEV0FeS2KCbVwhU/dflrzxbkwr4eTZLsTU2TTy9OaXL Mw44tf8xU4NhlVJGzAsUyX/p+epTHuSMb82l6oyiioTOoJ9Uc2aBWigyv2OTjFas4B/G EuBKBSwGPQuav9ghqFbaACngF5Mny5dyFEbKI8/oRB/no8IHWVRe+sYti8yL2fuyDG6U SIag== #v- -- Test input for validity and plausibility. - The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plauger) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
Yes, you are mistaken :-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DomainKeys_Identified_Mail#How_it_works Thanks.
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On 09/10/2016 05:34 PM, Santiago Vila wrote: > The "[Python-modules-team]" thing in the subject is probably enough to > break the DKIM signature. I don't believe DKIM signature is done on the header+body. If I'm not mistaking, it's done only in the body of the mail, because each SMTP server on the way to your inbox can add a "Received:" field, so you can trace the email. So yes, footers in emails can break stuff, but not mangling subject, which is part of the metadata. Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo)
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Jakub Wilkwrote: > > * Sandro Tosi , 2016-09-11, 10:42: >>> >>> Now, you've got to ask to the admin of that mailing list, which appears to >>> be jwilk. I find that particularly interesting, given that afaik he left >>> the team some time ago. > > > Yeah, that's bizarre. > >>> I don't know whether anybody else knows the administration password other >>> than him. > > > When I reset the password back in 2013, I sent it to all the DPMT admins.[0] > >> Hey jwilk, would you be able to disable the suspend membership upon bounces >> on the python teams mailing lists? > > > No, I'm too lazy. hehe fair enough :) > > > >> maybe you also want to hand over the administration of the mls to someone >> else, given you moved on from dpmt/papt :) > > > Very gladly! Now we only need this "someone else". Last time[1] I asked the > DPMT admins to take over the list admin duties, there were no replies. can any of the DPMT/PAPT admins pick up the ml admin duties and consider removing the bouncing membership suspension? Thanks, -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SandroTosi
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
* Sandro Tosi, 2016-09-11, 10:42: Now, you've got to ask to the admin of that mailing list, which appears to be jwilk. I find that particularly interesting, given that afaik he left the team some time ago. Yeah, that's bizarre. I don't know whether anybody else knows the administration password other than him. When I reset the password back in 2013, I sent it to all the DPMT admins.[0] Hey jwilk, would you be able to disable the suspend membership upon bounces on the python teams mailing lists? No, I'm too lazy. maybe you also want to hand over the administration of the mls to someone else, given you moved on from dpmt/papt :) Very gladly! Now we only need this "someone else". Last time[1] I asked the DPMT admins to take over the list admin duties, there were no replies. [0] <20130411191230.ga...@jwilk.net> [1] <20150410194600.ga...@jwilk.net> -- Jakub Wilk
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sep 11, 2016, at 09:41 AM, Sandro Tosi wrote: >now can we PLEASE stop talking about how the perfect smtp system >should work and GET BACK to discuss if we are able and want to disable >the suspend membership upon bounces (that's what the mail you receive >says, so do not nitpick on this term again) The downside is that the mail system will no longer track legitimate bounces, so more traffic will be generated to addresses which won't get delivered, and more bounce traffic will be received by the incoming mail system and just thrown away. The question to answer is whether that's an acceptable trade-off for reducing the inconvenience of people who need to occasionally re-enable their subscriptions because of the mail provider they use? I'm not a Debian system administrator, so I can't answer that question. However, if the impact on the network is acceptable, then all else being equal, making users lives better is usually a good choice. :) (I'd still complain to my mail provider, for whatever good that would do.) Cheers, -Barry
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Mattia Rizzolowrote: > On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 09:41:46AM +0100, Sandro Tosi wrote: >> now can we PLEASE stop talking about how the perfect smtp system >> should work and GET BACK to discuss if we are able and want to disable >> the suspend membership upon bounces (that's what the mail you receive >> says, so do not nitpick on this term again) > > Yes it can be done. In the administrative panel of mailman lists there > is this page at /admin//bounce: > https://volatile.mapreri.org/2016-09-11/80a0f21170e6f0098db20e2536b8dedb/mailman_Bounce_processing_.png Thanks Mattia!! > Now, you've got to ask to the admin of that mailing list, which appears > to be jwilk. I find that particularly interesting, given that afaik he > left the team some time ago. > I don't know whether anybody else knows the administration password > other than him. Hey jwilk, would you be able to disable the suspend membership upon bounces on the python teams mailing lists? maybe you also want to hand over the administration of the mls to someone else, given you moved on from dpmt/papt :) Thanks, -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SandroTosi
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 09:41:46AM +0100, Sandro Tosi wrote: > now can we PLEASE stop talking about how the perfect smtp system > should work and GET BACK to discuss if we are able and want to disable > the suspend membership upon bounces (that's what the mail you receive > says, so do not nitpick on this term again) Yes it can be done. In the administrative panel of mailman lists there is this page at /admin//bounce: https://volatile.mapreri.org/2016-09-11/80a0f21170e6f0098db20e2536b8dedb/mailman_Bounce_processing_.png Now, you've got to ask to the admin of that mailing list, which appears to be jwilk. I find that particularly interesting, given that afaik he left the team some time ago. I don't know whether anybody else knows the administration password other than him. -- regards, Mattia Rizzolo GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18 4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540 .''`. more about me: https://mapreri.org : :' : Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri `. `'` Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mattia `- signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 3:52 AM, Paul Wisewrote: > Rejecting instead of discarding spam sent to mailing lists has also > been bad practice for a long time. thanks for another OT mail, please read my other reply on the matter or rejecting mails by smtp systems now can we PLEASE stop talking about how the perfect smtp system should work and GET BACK to discuss if we are able and want to disable the suspend membership upon bounces (that's what the mail you receive says, so do not nitpick on this term again) thanks -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SandroTosi
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 3:23 AM, Sandro Tosi wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: >> On Sep 10, 2016, at 02:46 PM, Sandro Tosi wrote: >> >>>I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam >>>emails and that what causes this problem. >> >> Are you sure about that? Bouncing spam has been bad practice for a very long >> time. > > i indeed used a wrong term (in email-world bounce has a specific > meaning): gmail rejects spam emails (according to its filters) during > the smtp session with the other MTA, so it's not a bounce, but the > sender (alioth in this case) cant deliver the email, and that's what > triggers the suspended membership process. Rejecting instead of discarding spam sent to mailing lists has also been bad practice for a long time. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Barry Warsawwrote: > On Sep 10, 2016, at 02:46 PM, Sandro Tosi wrote: > >>I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam >>emails and that what causes this problem. > > Are you sure about that? Bouncing spam has been bad practice for a very long > time. i indeed used a wrong term (in email-world bounce has a specific meaning): gmail rejects spam emails (according to its filters) during the smtp session with the other MTA, so it's not a bounce, but the sender (alioth in this case) cant deliver the email, and that's what triggers the suspended membership process. -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SandroTosi
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
Yeah, I get these (quite annoying) bounce warnings on my gmail account once in a while. It's quite annoying. Paul On Sep 10, 2016 2:35 PM, "Barry Warsaw"wrote: > On Sep 10, 2016, at 02:46 PM, Sandro Tosi wrote: > > >I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam > >emails and that what causes this problem. > > Are you sure about that? Bouncing spam has been bad practice for a very > long > time. > > Cheers, > -Barry > >
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sep 10, 2016, at 04:32 PM, Santiago Vila wrote: >AFAIK, Gmail does not bounce spam. It rejects messages with broken >DKIM signatures. There are a number of DKIM mitigation features in newer versions of Mailman 2 that should be investigated. I can't tell what version of Mailman this list is using, and obviously don't have any access to the list or system configurations. If it really is DKIM that's causing your problem, please look at these. I haven't seen any reports of changing GMail behavior here on the mailman-users list, although I haven't been watching carefully lately. Cheers, -Barry
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sep 10, 2016, at 02:46 PM, Sandro Tosi wrote: >I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam >emails and that what causes this problem. Are you sure about that? Bouncing spam has been bad practice for a very long time. Cheers, -Barry
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 5:20 PM, Mattia Rizzolowrote: > The correct behaviour if they really want to avoid spam to even reach > the spam folder, is to accept the email, and discard it. err that's wrong, so wrong. every email provider with a handful of users rejects spam messages in the smtp session; not doing so is a waste of time, it doesnt give any information back to the sender (that in some rare case is a human and really wants to know the email was not received) and in some countries (italy to name one) you would be breaking the law accepting emails and not delivering them to the recipient. now that we discussed at length how we should handle the smtp service with spam, can we please get back on topic? is it possible for the admins to disable the auto-membership-suspend option on the the python teams mailing list? is it something others would rather keep or not? -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SandroTosi
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 05:34:12PM +0200, Santiago Vila wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 04:15:19PM +0100, Sandro Tosi wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Santiago Vilawrote: > Fine, but it is yet to be seen that the quoted message is rejected for > being "spam" (which is not an exact science), it could also be rejected > for having a broken DKIM signature (which may be checked automatically), > as the email is clearly modified by the list server. I've never seen rejected email from gmail's SMTP due to broken DKIM. AFAICT it just puts them in Spam (and only for the domains that enforce DKIM to be valid). OTOH, in my rely mail hosts I often see messagges like this: [wrapped for convenience] Sep 5 07:42:41 kahlan postfix/smtp[25940]: C67BF41796: to= , orig_to= , relay=alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[173.194.222.26]:25, delay=248373, delays=248370/0.08/2.6/0.27, dsn=4.7.0, status=deferred (host alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[173.194.222.26] said: 421-4.7.0 [95.85.2.163 15] Our system has detected that this message is 421-4.7.0 suspicious due to the nature of the content and/or the links within. 421-4.7.0 To best protect our users from spam, the message has been blocked. 421-4.7.0 Please visit 421 4.7.0 https://support.google.com/mail/answer/188131 for more information. 24si4125534ljb.48 - gsmtp (in reply to end of DATA command)) Usually those kind of emails stick there and postfix keeps trying them until they eventually hit the timeout and my rely rejects them too. > The "[Python-modules-team]" thing in the subject is probably enough to > break the DKIM signature. also the footer, if there is one, as it's default of mailman. > We should really not be sending messages having broken signatures to > the outside world, including our own email inboxes. ~all mailman mailing lists distributes messagges with broken DKIM signatures since the conception, the world did not end. It's plain annoying only for the very few domains that enforce them (notabily: yahoo, but I stopped caring for it). > And email users subscribed to one or more mailing lists should really > use email filters to filter email, not rely on this obnoxious subject > munging. yes. > More to the point, when you subscribe to a mailing list, you should be > ready to accept all messages from such mailing list, not accept some > messages and reject others. I agree gmail is broken there (and not only there), though I'm still an user too... The correct behaviour if they really want to avoid spam to even reach the spam folder, is to accept the email, and discard it. Mattia, whom suffers from this for the debian-science-maintainers ML. -- regards, Mattia Rizzolo GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18 4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540 .''`. more about me: https://mapreri.org : :' : Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri `. `'` Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mattia `- signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 04:15:19PM +0100, Sandro Tosi wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Santiago Vilawrote: > > AFAIK, Gmail does not bounce spam. It rejects messages with broken > > DKIM signatures. > > no. it rejects (yes technically not bounce, the mails are rejected in > the smtp session to gmails MX servers) mails as > http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/python-modules-team/2016-September/033740.html > which never reached my inbox (not even in the spam folder) Fine, but it is yet to be seen that the quoted message is rejected for being "spam" (which is not an exact science), it could also be rejected for having a broken DKIM signature (which may be checked automatically), as the email is clearly modified by the list server. The "[Python-modules-team]" thing in the subject is probably enough to break the DKIM signature. We should really not be sending messages having broken signatures to the outside world, including our own email inboxes. And email users subscribed to one or more mailing lists should really use email filters to filter email, not rely on this obnoxious subject munging. More to the point, when you subscribe to a mailing list, you should be ready to accept all messages from such mailing list, not accept some messages and reject others. Thanks.
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Santiago Vilawrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 02:46:54PM +0100, Sandro Tosi wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:19 PM, >> wrote: >> > Your membership in the mailing list Python-modules-team has been >> > disabled due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you >> > was dated 10-Sep-2016. You will not get any more messages from this >> > list until you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more >> > reminders like this before your membership in the list is deleted. >> >> I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam >> emails and that what causes this problem. I'm experiencing this more >> and more frequently. >> >> can we turn off the auto-membershp-disable feature for our mailing list? > > AFAIK, Gmail does not bounce spam. It rejects messages with broken > DKIM signatures. no. it rejects (yes technically not bounce, the mails are rejected in the smtp session to gmails MX servers) mails as http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/python-modules-team/2016-September/033740.html which never reached my inbox (not even in the spam folder) > What will probably solve your problem is dropping any subject munging > and any footer that the list server adds to all messages. This was > done on the lists.debian.org domain not a long time ago (there was a > footer), but I'm not sure about the different lists at > lists.alioth.debian.org. > > Try asking that to whoever maintains the list instead of asking that > they remove the auto-membership-disable feature. the decision should made by the team -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SandroTosi
Re: can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 02:46:54PM +0100, Sandro Tosi wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:19 PM, >wrote: > > Your membership in the mailing list Python-modules-team has been > > disabled due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you > > was dated 10-Sep-2016. You will not get any more messages from this > > list until you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more > > reminders like this before your membership in the list is deleted. > > I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam > emails and that what causes this problem. I'm experiencing this more > and more frequently. > > can we turn off the auto-membershp-disable feature for our mailing list? AFAIK, Gmail does not bounce spam. It rejects messages with broken DKIM signatures. What will probably solve your problem is dropping any subject munging and any footer that the list server adds to all messages. This was done on the lists.debian.org domain not a long time ago (there was a footer), but I'm not sure about the different lists at lists.alioth.debian.org. Try asking that to whoever maintains the list instead of asking that they remove the auto-membership-disable feature. Thanks.
can we disable the bounce kicker? Re: confirm
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:19 PM,wrote: > Your membership in the mailing list Python-modules-team has been > disabled due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you > was dated 10-Sep-2016. You will not get any more messages from this > list until you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more > reminders like this before your membership in the list is deleted. I'm sure i'm not the only member using gmail, which bounces spam emails and that what causes this problem. I'm experiencing this more and more frequently. can we turn off the auto-membershp-disable feature for our mailing list? Thanks, -- Sandro "morph" Tosi My website: http://sandrotosi.me/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SandroTosi