Re: Proposed release goal: UTF-8 support

2013-10-01 Thread Russ Allbery 
Ricardo Mones  writes:

>   Simply stating in the package description that it doesn't support UTF-8
> seems more acceptable to me. That a package doesn't met a RG doesn't exclude
> it from Debian¹, nevertheless it's good to know what to expect from it.

For example, OpenAFS doesn't have general large file support yet.  (It
does for the most critical components, like the file server, but not for
some of the random utilities.)  Upstream is working on it, but there are a
bunch of on-disk data structures and they have to be very careful about
not breaking them.

There's a limit to what we can do inside Debian, and in some cases waiting
for upstream is the right approach.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Proposed release goal: UTF-8 support

2013-10-01 Thread Ricardo Mones 
On Tue, Oct 01, 2013 at 06:22:43PM +0200, Paul Gevers wrote:
> Hi Adam,
> 
> On 01-10-13 00:54, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > * user-accessible interfaces (GUI, stdin, stdout, stderr, command line,
> >   reading/writing plain-text files) should be able to pass through UTF-8
> >   data uncorrupted, by default
> > * UTF-8 should be properly displayed
> 
> I am wondering who is going to do the work for e.g. bug 576095 [1].
> Upstream is basically dead and declared in the past that UTF-8 support
> would mean a mayor effort (the e-mail archive I refer to in the bug got
> lost). I am not going to do it as my c skills are not up to it. So what
> do you propose in view of this release goal? That packages such as nedit
> are removed from Debian? Apparently [2], there are still users
> interested in this package, that is why I never removed it.
> 
> [1] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=576095
> [2] http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=nedit

  Simply stating in the package description that it doesn't support UTF-8
seems more acceptable to me. That a package doesn't met a RG doesn't exclude
it from Debian¹, nevertheless it's good to know what to expect from it.

  regards,

¹https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals
-- 
  Ricardo Mones 
  ~
  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  Carl Sagan



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Re: Proposed release goal: UTF-8 support

2013-10-01 Thread Paul Gevers 
Hi Adam,

On 01-10-13 00:54, Adam Borowski wrote:
> * user-accessible interfaces (GUI, stdin, stdout, stderr, command line,
>   reading/writing plain-text files) should be able to pass through UTF-8
>   data uncorrupted, by default
> * UTF-8 should be properly displayed

I am wondering who is going to do the work for e.g. bug 576095 [1].
Upstream is basically dead and declared in the past that UTF-8 support
would mean a mayor effort (the e-mail archive I refer to in the bug got
lost). I am not going to do it as my c skills are not up to it. So what
do you propose in view of this release goal? That packages such as nedit
are removed from Debian? Apparently [2], there are still users
interested in this package, that is why I never removed it.

[1] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=576095
[2] http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=nedit

Paul



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Re: Proposed release goal: UTF-8 support

2013-09-30 Thread Niels Thykier 
On 2013-10-01 00:54, Adam Borowski wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> As previously (https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/08/msg00217.html)
> discussed, I'd like to propose improving support for UTF-8.  All material
> shipped with Debian should be encoded this way, or, for media with an opaque
> format, as something capable of storing any Unicode character, without need
> for any extra steps.
> 


Hi,

Thanks for your interest in improving Debian Jessie.  I appreciate the
idea behind this goal, but I have a few concerns with some of the sub-goals.

> There are four sub-goals:
> 
> * user-accessible interfaces (GUI, stdin, stdout, stderr, command line,
>   reading/writing plain-text files) should be able to pass through UTF-8
>   data uncorrupted, by default

Do we have a number of GUIs/tools that needs update here?  If not, I am
affraid this fails the "Measurable" requirement.  Even then, I doubt it
is realistic to assume there will be time to test all interfaces, so
perhaps put a limit on for Jessie (e.g.  "All interfaces of/in
$classification")

> * UTF-8 should be properly displayed

Can you be a bit more specific here?  Is this still for "usre-accessible
interfaces", then my concerns from above also apply here.

> * all filenames in Debian packages, binary and source, must use UTF-8
>   (obviously, 7-bit ASCII satisfies this requirement)

Okay, thanks to the Lintian check, I think we can say this satisfies the
SMART requirements at least for binary packages (the check is not done
on source packages as I recall)[1].

> * all text files shipped by Debian should be encoded in UTF-8
> 

I suspect this is suffering from the same problems as the
"user-accessible interface".  Though I suspect most of the problematic
files should be easier to detect then a bug in a user-interface (and
re-encoding is probably easier than fixing bugs in user-interfaces).

For this particular sub-goal, it is also possible to reduce the scope by
file type (e.g. "For Jessie, we will fix all POD,$A,... and $N files").

> The wiki entry: https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/utf-8
> 

By the way, this link does not appear to be included on
https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals.

Once again, I like the idea behind the goal.  However, I would like to
see some numbers of how much work there is (or how much work we/you
decide to target for Jessie) to ensure this goal is Attainable.

~Niels

[1] http://lintian.debian.org/tags/file-name-is-not-valid-UTF-8.html

Lists 5 packages and 15 affected files.

Technically, there is also:
http://lintian.debian.org/tags/file-name-in-PATH-is-not-ASCII.html

But there are no instances of that.



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Re: Proposed release goal: UTF-8 support

2013-09-30 Thread Dominik George 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hi,

>As previously
>(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/08/msg00217.html)
>discussed, I'd like to propose improving support for UTF-8.  All
>material
>shipped with Debian should be encoded this way

I absolutely second this proposal.

Why haven't you added it to https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals ? What is the 
usertag for it?

Cheers,
Nik
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Proposed release goal: UTF-8 support

2013-09-30 Thread Adam Borowski 
Hi!

As previously (https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/08/msg00217.html)
discussed, I'd like to propose improving support for UTF-8.  All material
shipped with Debian should be encoded this way, or, for media with an opaque
format, as something capable of storing any Unicode character, without need
for any extra steps.

There are four sub-goals:

* user-accessible interfaces (GUI, stdin, stdout, stderr, command line,
  reading/writing plain-text files) should be able to pass through UTF-8
  data uncorrupted, by default
* UTF-8 should be properly displayed
* all filenames in Debian packages, binary and source, must use UTF-8
  (obviously, 7-bit ASCII satisfies this requirement)
* all text files shipped by Debian should be encoded in UTF-8

The wiki entry: https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/utf-8

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