Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 02:47:57PM -0800, Jonathan Walther wrote: I have never endorsed any particular political point of view while using my debian.org address. I feel rather uncomfortable with the way the thread has been going; could you clarify whether you meant that I actually had done such, or just that it was a bad idea for anyone to do it? Hi Jonathan, I understood you had done such thing. If the critisized posting did not come from you debian.org address, I'm sorry and I apologize. As I also said in my posting, you are free to think, say and be what you like. Everyone should be. As long as one keeps politics out of debian, fanatics are a problem of the world, no debian-specific. Horst. I hope that was clarification enough for everyone. I hope we can stop this discussion since I understand it was been through already. -- Join the army, see the world, meet interesting, exciting people, and kill them. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
quote who=Lukas Ruf date=[040225 10:46]/ Just to mention: in some countries distributing racist material or neglecting the holocaust can be punished by law. I do not know what is the situation in British Columbia British Columbia being part of Canada makes it quite illegal. Canada has hate laws. J -- Justin F. Knotzke [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.shampoo.ca PGP: http://www.shampoo.ca/pubkey.txt I don't care who wins the Tour. As long as it isn't the Gringo - Raul Alcala -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, 2004-02-25 at 17:44 +0100, Thomas Sjögren wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 06:02:22PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: so the use of debian products for rascist work is ok for debian its a distribution of an operating system, how do you intend to stop insert a politicial view you dont approve of from using it? by using debian he associates debians products with rascism dont want to be rude, but have you guys heard of freedom of speech and freedom of choice? as long theres no racist/whatever propaganda inside debian, whats the problem? /Thomas - -- == [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] == Encrypted e-mails preferred | GPG KeyID: 114AA85C - -- Personally, I discriminate too. I discriminate against those seeking to rob or assault myself or those that matter to me, against spammers, and as I have uncovered at times of pursuing spammers, child pornographers. I discriminate in my choices of romantic and sexual relationships - one person at a time, with whom I share a deep heart bond. We all discriminate in certain ways, but under some discussions of this thread, since my discrimination choices are more socially sanctioned than others, I may be permitted to use and associate with Debian rather than others who hold views not currently as socially sanctioned (remember, anti-semitism has a VERY long and very often socially endorsed history in Europe, and more recently the Middle East. Today, most of us view all people as starting relatively equal by default, regardless of race, faith or gender, and some progress or fall behind by effort, but too many fall behind from blanket pre-conceptions or lack of access to opportunities) In the context of Debian, of itself, software is an apolitical algorithm. Dispute the ideas with the holders of the ideas if you do not agree - I know that I don't concur with the remnants and aspersions of Walther's views relayed here by hearsay, but don't extend that to matters not in a position to make a statement for themselves, such as software. -- Mark L. Kahnt, FLMI/M, ALHC, HIA, AIAA, ACS, MHP ML Kahnt New Markets Consulting Tel: (613) 531-8684 / (613) 539-0935 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 02:47:57PM -0800, Jonathan Walther wrote: I have never endorsed any particular political point of view while using my debian.org address. I feel rather uncomfortable with the way the thread has been going; could you clarify whether you meant that I actually had done such, or just that it was a bad idea for anyone to do it? Hi Jonathan, I understood you had done such thing. If the critisized posting did not come from you debian.org address, I'm sorry and I apologize. As I also said in my posting, you are free to think, say and be what you like. Everyone should be. As long as one keeps politics out of debian, fanatics are a problem of the world, no debian-specific. Horst. I hope that was clarification enough for everyone. I hope we can stop this discussion since I understand it was been through already. -- Join the army, see the world, meet interesting, exciting people, and kill them.
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, 2004-02-25 at 17:44 +0100, Thomas Sjögren wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 06:02:22PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: so the use of debian products for rascist work is ok for debian its a distribution of an operating system, how do you intend to stop insert a politicial view you dont approve of from using it? by using debian he associates debians products with rascism dont want to be rude, but have you guys heard of freedom of speech and freedom of choice? as long theres no racist/whatever propaganda inside debian, whats the problem? /Thomas - -- == [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] == Encrypted e-mails preferred | GPG KeyID: 114AA85C - -- Personally, I discriminate too. I discriminate against those seeking to rob or assault myself or those that matter to me, against spammers, and as I have uncovered at times of pursuing spammers, child pornographers. I discriminate in my choices of romantic and sexual relationships - one person at a time, with whom I share a deep heart bond. We all discriminate in certain ways, but under some discussions of this thread, since my discrimination choices are more socially sanctioned than others, I may be permitted to use and associate with Debian rather than others who hold views not currently as socially sanctioned (remember, anti-semitism has a VERY long and very often socially endorsed history in Europe, and more recently the Middle East. Today, most of us view all people as starting relatively equal by default, regardless of race, faith or gender, and some progress or fall behind by effort, but too many fall behind from blanket pre-conceptions or lack of access to opportunities) In the context of Debian, of itself, software is an apolitical algorithm. Dispute the ideas with the holders of the ideas if you do not agree - I know that I don't concur with the remnants and aspersions of Walther's views relayed here by hearsay, but don't extend that to matters not in a position to make a statement for themselves, such as software. -- Mark L. Kahnt, FLMI/M, ALHC, HIA, AIAA, ACS, MHP ML Kahnt New Markets Consulting Tel: (613) 531-8684 / (613) 539-0935 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
quote who=Lukas Ruf date=[040225 10:46]/ Just to mention: in some countries distributing racist material or neglecting the holocaust can be punished by law. I do not know what is the situation in British Columbia British Columbia being part of Canada makes it quite illegal. Canada has hate laws. J -- Justin F. Knotzke [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.shampoo.ca PGP: http://www.shampoo.ca/pubkey.txt I don't care who wins the Tour. As long as it isn't the Gringo - Raul Alcala
Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
-- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: [ox-en] Walther Date: Wednesday 25 February 2004 15:54 From: Martin Hardie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tacincala [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Wednesday 25 February 2004 15:25, Tacincala wrote: http://reactor-core.org/discrimination/ I hadn't seen this one. It really does make the case very strongly against Walther. I also think that Tacincala has a very good point here: Oekonux should kick and ban Jonathan Walther for this list for promotion of racism and also mail the debian project to ask them why they allow racists to use @debian.org addresses. or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? I suggest that the list meister make a filter rascists or nazis and divert Walther to a bin somewhere Martin http://openflows.org/~auskadi/ Mind you, I am not asking you to bear witness to what you believe false, which would be a sin, but to testify falsely to what you believe true - which is a virtuous act because it compensates for lack of proof of something that certainly exists or happened. Bishop Otto to Baudolino in Umberto Eco's Baudolino. _ Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/ Organization: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- -- :: http://openflows.org/~auskadi/ Mind you, I am not asking you to bear witness to what you believe false, which would be a sin, but to testify falsely to what you believe true - which is a virtuous act because it compensates for lack of proof of something that certainly exists or happened. Bishop Otto to Baudolino in Umberto Eco's Baudolino. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. -- -- Dale Amon [EMAIL PROTECTED]+44-7802-188325 International linux systems consultancy Hardware software system design, security and networking, systems programming and Admin Have Laptop, Will Travel -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
Dale Amon [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-02-25 16:42]: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. Just to mention: in some countries distributing racist material or neglecting the holocaust can be punished by law. I do not know what is the situation in British Columbia wbr, Lukas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 03:41:13PM +, Dale Amon wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. Might it not be wise to check if I ever did bring my politics into Debian? I did last year, and it got posted in Debian Weekly News; it was a thread on the Socialist-Anarchist nature of Debian. I made it clear in that thread where my sympathies lay. Apart from that one time, my political activities have stayed strictly separate from Debian. Jonathan -- Address: 13685 Hilton Road, Surrey, BC V3R5J8 (Canada) Contact: 604-951-4142 (between 7am and 10pm, PST) Website: http://reactor-core.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 03:41:13PM +, Dale Amon wrote: Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. A: Why is this on security? B: I thought we had decided last time that Debian does not discriminate against people, even those who have belief systems many of us disagree with? Why, when it was He's a Nazi did we reach that conclusion, but then want to bring it up now that he may or may not be a racist, as well? -- michael d. ivey[McQ] : In this house, we obey the laws of [EMAIL PROTECTED] : thermodynamics!-- Homer Simpson http://gweezlebur.com/~ivey/ : encrypted email preferred : signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
so the use of debian products for rascist work is ok for debian by using debian he associates debians products with rascism On Wednesday 25 February 2004 17:41, Dale Amon wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. -- :: http://openflows.org/~auskadi/ Mind you, I am not asking you to bear witness to what you believe false, which would be a sin, but to testify falsely to what you believe true - which is a virtuous act because it compensates for lack of proof of something that certainly exists or happened. Bishop Otto to Baudolino in Umberto Eco's Baudolino. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
I'm on the Debian security list to get Debian related security notifications and info. Could you please take this discussion elsewhere?! -Original Message- From: Jonathan Walther [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 9:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 03:41:13PM +, Dale Amon wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. Might it not be wise to check if I ever did bring my politics into Debian? I did last year, and it got posted in Debian Weekly News; it was a thread on the Socialist-Anarchist nature of Debian. I made it clear in that thread where my sympathies lay. Apart from that one time, my political activities have stayed strictly separate from Debian. Jonathan -- Address: 13685 Hilton Road, Surrey, BC V3R5J8 (Canada) Contact: 604-951-4142 (between 7am and 10pm, PST) Website: http://reactor-core.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
Greetings, or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? What's the alternativ? Call the CIA or ths Spanish christian inquisition to check everybodies political correctness? Keep smiling yanosz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 06:26:47PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: Well dont come here. At the local restauraunt I sometimes go to the head waiter wears an Osama is my hero T shirt. I think it is better to ask why do they do what they do anyway. I see. So when I do over the Internet what you just advocated doing in person, I am a Nazi, but you are compassionate, tolerant hero of the proletariat? Finding out what motivates someone, then sharing that knowledge, makes you culpable for that persons crimes? I truly fear the idea of living in a nation ruled by such notions of justice as you display here. When you would violate the principles of justice, thinking thereby to secure it, you end up with tyranny of the basest sort. Equality before the law, and sole culpability for ones acts are principles of three thousand years standing in the West. Don't be hasty to throw them away. Jonathan -- Address: 13685 Hilton Road, Surrey, BC V3R5J8 (Canada) Contact: 604-951-4142 (between 7am and 10pm, PST) Website: http://reactor-core.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 06:02:22PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: so the use of debian products for rascist work is ok for debian its a distribution of an operating system, how do you intend to stop insert a politicial view you dont approve of from using it? by using debian he associates debians products with rascism dont want to be rude, but have you guys heard of freedom of speech and freedom of choice? as long theres no racist/whatever propaganda inside debian, whats the problem? /Thomas - -- == [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] == Encrypted e-mails preferred | GPG KeyID: 114AA85C - -- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBQDzRBdXAsD67qPj1AQJjwggAoeI+bIRcbrtYJFJL1iTuMm40a880TJqs wYAfPpUudy5UxwfLxUjpI4oDYB6QeXJG4ewWSNn5YyKYQ9w/AQ9uSxk7WyehFL3c Gp5U4IjeMzMyDFrXVzR8pMBahiZcVSvBayGisg+wES/2U/YpHohSfVs8i+i0GtXb FfOXJ/QQLgiOgecIEo4iEd/WRy135/o5jBGZVOdnR6F8RSnh2wSmOrdES9v2LE5+ qWOiNgoGC4GPFx6Iu2fULYw0FafS+iNCTwnaAJRkzg7lxnZdiS6uMn3pJqYp6GuV ylWlwbfNQvq/ZUuqo66NXT3thVsrlkPhukxxiqDP8rlzjsiSxi+cig== =edGr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
Unfortunately, Any platform can be used in any regard. That in its self doesn't mean that the developers or the vast majority of the user base condones it. Be that as it may many of the people in the world will attempt to use what ever means that they can to damage a competitor. But If anyone asking for support and using or accessing this list leaves personal beliefs out side and we discuss relevant topics only then I don't see where any problem is. Sad to say that to refuse some one for their beliefs Even if that is to support hate would have a negative impact over all. So best over all if everyone involved in the project just leaves beliefs religion ect... Outside while we actually discuss the issues at hand. -Original Message- From: Martin Hardie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 10:24 AM To: Dale Amon; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther so the use of debian products for rascist work is ok for debian by using debian he associates debians products with rascism On Wednesday 25 February 2004 17:41, Dale Amon wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. -- :: http://openflows.org/~auskadi/ Mind you, I am not asking you to bear witness to what you believe false, which would be a sin, but to testify falsely to what you believe true - which is a virtuous act because it compensates for lack of proof of something that certainly exists or happened. Bishop Otto to Baudolino in Umberto Eco's Baudolino. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 05:44:54PM +0100, Thomas Sjögren wrote: as long theres no racist/whatever propaganda inside debian, whats the problem? Actually, there are/were some two or three racist fortunes in the fortunes-off package, FWIW. -- ``You know those mail clients: MS Outlook, mail(1), or even telnet(1). All of them suck. This one just sucks less.'' pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
the differnce is guys is that Debian and free software professes to be based upon a community and a community that believes in sharing and respect and thus must have the guts to move beyond the inane ... no discrimination statement ... freedom rhetoric and stand up for and make political decisions The situation is completely different to proprietary products. They are within capital and want to be within capital. Software is politics, IP is politics, free software is blatantly political in its anti IP posiitons ... or pretends to be ... or is it just another way of doing business and fuck the fallout. We dont say you should stop him from using your software ... but you should shun people with such views and who use the product of your community to promote such views, you should shun them from your community. its is not about discrimination give us a break :: http://openflows.org/~auskadi/ Mind you, I am not asking you to bear witness to what you believe false, which would be a sin, but to testify falsely to what you believe true - which is a virtuous act because it compensates for lack of proof of something that certainly exists or happened. Bishop Otto to Baudolino in Umberto Eco's Baudolino. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 06:50:50PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: the differnce is guys is that Debian and free software professes to be based upon a community and a community that believes in sharing and respect and thus must have the guts to move beyond the inane ... no discrimination statement ... freedom rhetoric and stand up for and make political decisions That *is* a political statement, and it sounds like you are arguing for yourself the very strange position of being anti-racist yet pro-discrimination and anti-free speech. I support free speech. I disagree vehemently with the racists and their rhetoric, but I also vehemently support their right to say it. Perhaps one day someone will disagree vehemently with what I want to say, yet support my ability to say it, too. This is called tolerance, and it's a shame you don't have more of it. And the operating system they use to do it is completely irrelevant. Debian says no discrimination and WE MEAN IT. What good is a mail reader if its license only allows you to legally express opinions that the author agrees with? That's silly, and a crimp on people that are saying unpopular but correct things. Software is politics, IP is politics, free software is blatantly political in its anti IP posiitons ... or pretends to be ... or is it just another way of doing business and fuck the fallout. You might notice that virtually every bit of software in Debian is copyrighted and licensed. I am not sure where you are getting the anti IP rhetoric from. It would be better to say responsible IP. We dont say you should stop him from using your software ... but you should shun people with such views and who use the product of your community to promote such views, you should shun them from your community. its is not about discrimination Pardon me, but that is *exactly* what you are saying: We should treat people with certain views differently than other people. It doesn't take a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary to work out that this is a prime example of discrimination. Note too that the Debian Free Software Guidelines -- from which the no discrimination line originates -- apply to software licenses and not to actions of the Project. In other words, we have committed ourselves to distributing software that has no onerous restrictions, but we do not compel any Debian user or developer to associate with someone whom they find distasteful. In the end, freedom of association is preserved for the individual. People can make their own choices about whom they associate with, and trying to lecture some ill-defined community with no real boss is an exercise in futility. -- John -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
as long theres no racist/whatever propaganda inside debian, whats the problem? Actually, there are/were some two or three racist fortunes in the fortunes-off package, FWIW. please continue the discussion in debial-politics. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 03:41:13PM +, Dale Amon wrote: Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. I do strongly disagree with his personal thoughts, but I must grant him the right to be whatever as*#§$ he likes. Be it so. Just one more point: I think, keeping politics and extremist declarations outside Debian also means, that he/we should not declare such thoughts using official debian mail-addresses. Using corporate addresses means assigning those declarations to debian and thus putting politics _inside_ debian. So, feel free and feel encouraged to participate in political discussion and decision-making, but make sure to do this with your private address or make shure, that your opinion is supported by the community. Using corporate mail for disclaiming thoughts contrary to corporate politics/views is - iirc - good reason for lay off in all countries. Regards Horst. -- Join the army, see the world, meet interesting, exciting people, and kill them. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
Hello all! I've just received over 20 mails with Walther in subject. No one from them is related to debian security issues. Is is OK ? I'm receving daily hundreds of mails, and I like to have them sorted by real subject. best regards Jarek -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 09:42:08PM +0100, Horst Pflugstaedt wrote: I think, keeping politics and extremist declarations outside Debian also means, that he/we should not declare such thoughts using official debian mail-addresses. Using corporate addresses means assigning those declarations to debian and thus putting politics _inside_ debian. I have never endorsed any particular political point of view while using my debian.org address. I feel rather uncomfortable with the way the thread has been going; could you clarify whether you meant that I actually had done such, or just that it was a bad idea for anyone to do it? Jonathan -- Address: 13685 Hilton Road, Surrey, BC V3R5J8 (Canada) Contact: 604-951-4142 (between 7am and 10pm, PST) Website: http://reactor-core.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
Shall Intel or AMD also now be tainted, if his computer or server use either of their CPU's? Are we to boycott ATI or Nvidia for allowing him to use a video card created by them? If his mouse is powered by the serial port which is a patent owned by Microsoft, does it mean Microsoft can require him to stop using their licensed technology because of his beliefs? Worse yet, some of what he has exhaled has tainted all the air, shall we boycott breathing until he stops exhaling? Let's all step back and think about the implications of what you and other have called for. Discrimination on any basis is not and should not be allowed in the 'Debian social contract'. If you feel a need to filter messages based on who they come from, or even to filter who is an author of contributor to any piece of software you use, feel free to use the tools that are made available to you with 'NO strings attached'. None. Purposefully. No one else will make that choice for you, and the ability to freely make choices is ultimately what Debian is all about. On Wed, 25 Feb 2004, Martin Hardie wrote: so the use of debian products for rascist work is ok for debian by using debian he associates debians products with rascism On Wednesday 25 February 2004 17:41, Dale Amon wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. -- :: http://openflows.org/~auskadi/ Mind you, I am not asking you to bear witness to what you believe false, which would be a sin, but to testify falsely to what you believe true - which is a virtuous act because it compensates for lack of proof of something that certainly exists or happened. Bishop Otto to Baudolino in Umberto Eco's Baudolino. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
-- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: [ox-en] Walther Date: Wednesday 25 February 2004 15:54 From: Martin Hardie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tacincala [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Wednesday 25 February 2004 15:25, Tacincala wrote: http://reactor-core.org/discrimination/ I hadn't seen this one. It really does make the case very strongly against Walther. I also think that Tacincala has a very good point here: Oekonux should kick and ban Jonathan Walther for this list for promotion of racism and also mail the debian project to ask them why they allow racists to use @debian.org addresses. or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? I suggest that the list meister make a filter rascists or nazis and divert Walther to a bin somewhere Martin http://openflows.org/~auskadi/ Mind you, I am not asking you to bear witness to what you believe false, which would be a sin, but to testify falsely to what you believe true - which is a virtuous act because it compensates for lack of proof of something that certainly exists or happened. Bishop Otto to Baudolino in Umberto Eco's Baudolino. _ Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/ Organization: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- -- :: http://openflows.org/~auskadi/ Mind you, I am not asking you to bear witness to what you believe false, which would be a sin, but to testify falsely to what you believe true - which is a virtuous act because it compensates for lack of proof of something that certainly exists or happened. Bishop Otto to Baudolino in Umberto Eco's Baudolino.
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. -- -- Dale Amon [EMAIL PROTECTED]+44-7802-188325 International linux systems consultancy Hardware software system design, security and networking, systems programming and Admin Have Laptop, Will Travel --
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
Dale Amon [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-02-25 16:42]: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. Just to mention: in some countries distributing racist material or neglecting the holocaust can be punished by law. I do not know what is the situation in British Columbia wbr, Lukas
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 03:41:13PM +, Dale Amon wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. Might it not be wise to check if I ever did bring my politics into Debian? I did last year, and it got posted in Debian Weekly News; it was a thread on the Socialist-Anarchist nature of Debian. I made it clear in that thread where my sympathies lay. Apart from that one time, my political activities have stayed strictly separate from Debian. Jonathan -- Address: 13685 Hilton Road, Surrey, BC V3R5J8 (Canada) Contact: 604-951-4142 (between 7am and 10pm, PST) Website: http://reactor-core.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:45:39PM +0100, Lukas Ruf wrote: Just to mention: in some countries distributing racist material or neglecting the holocaust can be punished by law. I do not know what is the situation in British Columbia In Communist Russia it was illegal to own a gun. What does that have to do with the price of tea in Spain? Before you leap to the ready with shoulds and oughts, it would be wise to ascertain the facts of the case. Jonathan -- Address: 13685 Hilton Road, Surrey, BC V3R5J8 (Canada) Contact: 604-951-4142 (between 7am and 10pm, PST) Website: http://reactor-core.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 06:02:22PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: so the use of debian products for rascist work is ok for debian by using debian he associates debians products with rascism On Wednesday 25 February 2004 17:41, Dale Amon wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. Debian is useable by anyoen. Let's not go down that road or you'll have everyone trying to decide who is allowed to use what software for what purpose and since practically everyone hates *someone*, the whole endeavour dies. The software is just there for all to use on an equal basis. Even an al Qaeda member can use debian... although I'd shoot them dead on sight if I met them in person. But that would have nothing to do with Debian or Debian use or Debian policy or Debian anything. That's why there are very wise rules in Debian and GPL in general to make software freely available to *all* persons. Why don't we drop this thread and leave it to the list maintainer? -- -- Dale Amon [EMAIL PROTECTED]+44-7802-188325 International linux systems consultancy Hardware software system design, security and networking, systems programming and Admin Have Laptop, Will Travel --
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
so the use of debian products for rascist work is ok for debian by using debian he associates debians products with rascism On Wednesday 25 February 2004 17:41, Dale Amon wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. -- :: http://openflows.org/~auskadi/ Mind you, I am not asking you to bear witness to what you believe false, which would be a sin, but to testify falsely to what you believe true - which is a virtuous act because it compensates for lack of proof of something that certainly exists or happened. Bishop Otto to Baudolino in Umberto Eco's Baudolino.
RE: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
I'm on the Debian security list to get Debian related security notifications and info. Could you please take this discussion elsewhere?! -Original Message- From: Jonathan Walther [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 9:56 AM To: debian-security@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 03:41:13PM +, Dale Amon wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. Might it not be wise to check if I ever did bring my politics into Debian? I did last year, and it got posted in Debian Weekly News; it was a thread on the Socialist-Anarchist nature of Debian. I made it clear in that thread where my sympathies lay. Apart from that one time, my political activities have stayed strictly separate from Debian. Jonathan -- Address: 13685 Hilton Road, Surrey, BC V3R5J8 (Canada) Contact: 604-951-4142 (between 7am and 10pm, PST) Website: http://reactor-core.org
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
Greetings, or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? What's the alternativ? Call the CIA or ths Spanish christian inquisition to check everybodies political correctness? Keep smiling yanosz
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 06:02:22PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: so the use of debian products for rascist work is ok for debian Yes, it is. Our Debian Free Software Guidelines enforce a mandate of no discrimination. Software included in Debian does not discriminate on people based on their opinions or any other factor, including employer, race, gender, ethnicity, etc. You may note that Windows also does not prohibit one from using it to disseminate unpopular and incorrect opinions. by using debian he associates debians products with rascism That is a very far stretch. I fail to see how that works. Does Playboy associate Sun's products with pornography because their server runs Solaris? [1] Would I associate Microsoft's products with Free Software if I were to port PyGopherd to Windows? [1] http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=playboy.com
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 06:26:47PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: Well dont come here. At the local restauraunt I sometimes go to the head waiter wears an Osama is my hero T shirt. I think it is better to ask why do they do what they do anyway. I see. So when I do over the Internet what you just advocated doing in person, I am a Nazi, but you are compassionate, tolerant hero of the proletariat? Finding out what motivates someone, then sharing that knowledge, makes you culpable for that persons crimes? I truly fear the idea of living in a nation ruled by such notions of justice as you display here. When you would violate the principles of justice, thinking thereby to secure it, you end up with tyranny of the basest sort. Equality before the law, and sole culpability for ones acts are principles of three thousand years standing in the West. Don't be hasty to throw them away. Jonathan -- Address: 13685 Hilton Road, Surrey, BC V3R5J8 (Canada) Contact: 604-951-4142 (between 7am and 10pm, PST) Website: http://reactor-core.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 06:02:22PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: so the use of debian products for rascist work is ok for debian its a distribution of an operating system, how do you intend to stop insert a politicial view you dont approve of from using it? by using debian he associates debians products with rascism dont want to be rude, but have you guys heard of freedom of speech and freedom of choice? as long theres no racist/whatever propaganda inside debian, whats the problem? /Thomas - -- == [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] == Encrypted e-mails preferred | GPG KeyID: 114AA85C - -- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBQDzRBdXAsD67qPj1AQJjwggAoeI+bIRcbrtYJFJL1iTuMm40a880TJqs wYAfPpUudy5UxwfLxUjpI4oDYB6QeXJG4ewWSNn5YyKYQ9w/AQ9uSxk7WyehFL3c Gp5U4IjeMzMyDFrXVzR8pMBahiZcVSvBayGisg+wES/2U/YpHohSfVs8i+i0GtXb FfOXJ/QQLgiOgecIEo4iEd/WRy135/o5jBGZVOdnR6F8RSnh2wSmOrdES9v2LE5+ qWOiNgoGC4GPFx6Iu2fULYw0FafS+iNCTwnaAJRkzg7lxnZdiS6uMn3pJqYp6GuV ylWlwbfNQvq/ZUuqo66NXT3thVsrlkPhukxxiqDP8rlzjsiSxi+cig== =edGr -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
Debian is useable by anyoen. Let's not go down that road or you'll have everyone trying to decide who is allowed to use what software for what purpose and since practically everyone hates *someone*, the whole endeavour dies. This is not about personal dislike. It is about the dubious claim that Floss is apolitical whilst at the same time claiming to be beyond capital or a new mode of production. Walther just came and put his ugly face in this list. Now someone here has said we should kick him. He is a personal incarnation of the theoretical discussion we are having. If Floss is what it says it is it isPOLITICAL and political choices must be made. If Debian is used to build a new torture machine for use by your government or ayone else - is that OK as long as they don't mention it within Debian. Thats ounds like - its ok to have nazis around to dinner as long as they dont mention their views liberal rationalism gone mad. The software is just there for all to use on an equal basis. Even an al Qaeda member can use debian... well not according to US EXport Laws they cannot if they get it in the unfree world. This is false. software is only free for people within the US declared free world. although I'd shoot them dead on sight if I met them in person. Well dont come here. At the local restauraunt I sometimes go to the head waiter wears an Osama is my hero T shirt. I think it is better to ask why do they do what they do anyway. Its tied up with globalisation, capital and the imperial kingdom. But that is another matter. In any event I can't equate a liberator with a nazi...one persons terrorist may be anothers freedom fighter ... but one persons nazi is also another persons nazi Why don't we drop this thread and leave it to the list maintainer? ha ha -- :: http://openflows.org/~auskadi/ Mind you, I am not asking you to bear witness to what you believe false, which would be a sin, but to testify falsely to what you believe true - which is a virtuous act because it compensates for lack of proof of something that certainly exists or happened. Bishop Otto to Baudolino in Umberto Eco's Baudolino.
RE: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
Unfortunately, Any platform can be used in any regard. That in its self doesn't mean that the developers or the vast majority of the user base condones it. Be that as it may many of the people in the world will attempt to use what ever means that they can to damage a competitor. But If anyone asking for support and using or accessing this list leaves personal beliefs out side and we discuss relevant topics only then I don't see where any problem is. Sad to say that to refuse some one for their beliefs Even if that is to support hate would have a negative impact over all. So best over all if everyone involved in the project just leaves beliefs religion ect... Outside while we actually discuss the issues at hand. -Original Message- From: Martin Hardie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 10:24 AM To: Dale Amon; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: debian-security@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther so the use of debian products for rascist work is ok for debian by using debian he associates debians products with rascism On Wednesday 25 February 2004 17:41, Dale Amon wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. -- :: http://openflows.org/~auskadi/ Mind you, I am not asking you to bear witness to what you believe false, which would be a sin, but to testify falsely to what you believe true - which is a virtuous act because it compensates for lack of proof of something that certainly exists or happened. Bishop Otto to Baudolino in Umberto Eco's Baudolino. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 05:44:54PM +0100, Thomas Sjögren wrote: as long theres no racist/whatever propaganda inside debian, whats the problem? Actually, there are/were some two or three racist fortunes in the fortunes-off package, FWIW. -- ``You know those mail clients: MS Outlook, mail(1), or even telnet(1). All of them suck. This one just sucks less.'' pgpx4LKm18lo2.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
the differnce is guys is that Debian and free software professes to be based upon a community and a community that believes in sharing and respect and thus must have the guts to move beyond the inane ... no discrimination statement ... freedom rhetoric and stand up for and make political decisions The situation is completely different to proprietary products. They are within capital and want to be within capital. Software is politics, IP is politics, free software is blatantly political in its anti IP posiitons ... or pretends to be ... or is it just another way of doing business and fuck the fallout. We dont say you should stop him from using your software ... but you should shun people with such views and who use the product of your community to promote such views, you should shun them from your community. its is not about discrimination give us a break :: http://openflows.org/~auskadi/ Mind you, I am not asking you to bear witness to what you believe false, which would be a sin, but to testify falsely to what you believe true - which is a virtuous act because it compensates for lack of proof of something that certainly exists or happened. Bishop Otto to Baudolino in Umberto Eco's Baudolino.
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 06:50:50PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: the differnce is guys is that Debian and free software professes to be based upon a community and a community that believes in sharing and respect and thus must have the guts to move beyond the inane ... no discrimination statement ... freedom rhetoric and stand up for and make political decisions That *is* a political statement, and it sounds like you are arguing for yourself the very strange position of being anti-racist yet pro-discrimination and anti-free speech. I support free speech. I disagree vehemently with the racists and their rhetoric, but I also vehemently support their right to say it. Perhaps one day someone will disagree vehemently with what I want to say, yet support my ability to say it, too. This is called tolerance, and it's a shame you don't have more of it. And the operating system they use to do it is completely irrelevant. Debian says no discrimination and WE MEAN IT. What good is a mail reader if its license only allows you to legally express opinions that the author agrees with? That's silly, and a crimp on people that are saying unpopular but correct things. Software is politics, IP is politics, free software is blatantly political in its anti IP posiitons ... or pretends to be ... or is it just another way of doing business and fuck the fallout. You might notice that virtually every bit of software in Debian is copyrighted and licensed. I am not sure where you are getting the anti IP rhetoric from. It would be better to say responsible IP. We dont say you should stop him from using your software ... but you should shun people with such views and who use the product of your community to promote such views, you should shun them from your community. its is not about discrimination Pardon me, but that is *exactly* what you are saying: We should treat people with certain views differently than other people. It doesn't take a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary to work out that this is a prime example of discrimination. Note too that the Debian Free Software Guidelines -- from which the no discrimination line originates -- apply to software licenses and not to actions of the Project. In other words, we have committed ourselves to distributing software that has no onerous restrictions, but we do not compel any Debian user or developer to associate with someone whom they find distasteful. In the end, freedom of association is preserved for the individual. People can make their own choices about whom they associate with, and trying to lecture some ill-defined community with no real boss is an exercise in futility. -- John
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
as long theres no racist/whatever propaganda inside debian, whats the problem? Actually, there are/were some two or three racist fortunes in the fortunes-off package, FWIW. please continue the discussion in debial-politics.
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 03:41:13PM +, Dale Amon wrote: Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. I do strongly disagree with his personal thoughts, but I must grant him the right to be whatever as*#§$ he likes. Be it so. Just one more point: I think, keeping politics and extremist declarations outside Debian also means, that he/we should not declare such thoughts using official debian mail-addresses. Using corporate addresses means assigning those declarations to debian and thus putting politics _inside_ debian. So, feel free and feel encouraged to participate in political discussion and decision-making, but make sure to do this with your private address or make shure, that your opinion is supported by the community. Using corporate mail for disclaiming thoughts contrary to corporate politics/views is - iirc - good reason for lay off in all countries. Regards Horst. -- Join the army, see the world, meet interesting, exciting people, and kill them.
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
Hello all! I've just received over 20 mails with Walther in subject. No one from them is related to debian security issues. Is is OK ? I'm receving daily hundreds of mails, and I like to have them sorted by real subject. best regards Jarek
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 09:42:08PM +0100, Horst Pflugstaedt wrote: I think, keeping politics and extremist declarations outside Debian also means, that he/we should not declare such thoughts using official debian mail-addresses. Using corporate addresses means assigning those declarations to debian and thus putting politics _inside_ debian. I have never endorsed any particular political point of view while using my debian.org address. I feel rather uncomfortable with the way the thread has been going; could you clarify whether you meant that I actually had done such, or just that it was a bad idea for anyone to do it? Jonathan -- Address: 13685 Hilton Road, Surrey, BC V3R5J8 (Canada) Contact: 604-951-4142 (between 7am and 10pm, PST) Website: http://reactor-core.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Fwd: Re: [ox-en] Walther
Shall Intel or AMD also now be tainted, if his computer or server use either of their CPU's? Are we to boycott ATI or Nvidia for allowing him to use a video card created by them? If his mouse is powered by the serial port which is a patent owned by Microsoft, does it mean Microsoft can require him to stop using their licensed technology because of his beliefs? Worse yet, some of what he has exhaled has tainted all the air, shall we boycott breathing until he stops exhaling? Let's all step back and think about the implications of what you and other have called for. Discrimination on any basis is not and should not be allowed in the 'Debian social contract'. If you feel a need to filter messages based on who they come from, or even to filter who is an author of contributor to any piece of software you use, feel free to use the tools that are made available to you with 'NO strings attached'. None. Purposefully. No one else will make that choice for you, and the ability to freely make choices is ultimately what Debian is all about. On Wed, 25 Feb 2004, Martin Hardie wrote: so the use of debian products for rascist work is ok for debian by using debian he associates debians products with rascism On Wednesday 25 February 2004 17:41, Dale Amon wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 04:37:20PM +0200, Martin Hardie wrote: or is good code more important than this sort of stuff? Yes, as long as his personal beliefs are kept outside of Debian. I think a severe warning to keep his politics outside of Debian would be sufficient. -- :: http://openflows.org/~auskadi/ Mind you, I am not asking you to bear witness to what you believe false, which would be a sin, but to testify falsely to what you believe true - which is a virtuous act because it compensates for lack of proof of something that certainly exists or happened. Bishop Otto to Baudolino in Umberto Eco's Baudolino. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
