date:20140921

"Andrew M.A. Cater"  writes:

> Jessie freezes no later than November 5th 2014. Allow folk who are trying to 
> work on the distribution to work on it and not to have to intervene in this
> sort of discussion, please.

Nobody prevents them from doing either or forces them to do anything.

Once they have finished their work, Debian will have fallen under the
control of systemd.  Then what will it take to undo the damage?

-- 
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Re: MDADM RAID1 of external USB 3.0 Drives

Linux-Fan  writes:

> On 09/21/2014 08:41 PM, lee wrote:
>> Linux-Fan  writes:
 On 09/20/2014 04:55 PM, lee wrote:
 Other than that, in my experience Seagate disks my have an unusually
 high failure rate.
>>>
>>> Mine all work here. SMART reports
>> 
>> They'll work until they fail.  I don't believe in the smart-info.
>
> I do not trust SMART to be a reliable means of failure-prevention either
> (the only failure I ever had occurred without any SMART warning), but
> the "counters" especially for such normal things like power-on hours or
> power-cycle counts are reliable as far as I can tell. Also, the drive is
> used and filled with my data which all seems to be readable and correct.

I've seen the smart info show incredible numbers for the hours and for
the temperature.  Hence I can only guess which of the values are true
and which aren't, so I'm simply ignoring them.  And I never bothered to
try to relate them to a disk failure.  When a disk has failed, it has
failed and what the smart info says is irrelevant.

>> You rebuild the RAID within 45 seconds?  And you realise that RAID has a
>> reputation to fail beyond recovery preferably during rebuilds?
>
> No, I did not rebuild because it is not necessary as the data has not
> changed and the RAID had not been assembled (degraded) yet.
>
> And the second statement was the very reason for me starting this thread.

Ah I see, that minimises the problem.  I haven't followed all of the
thread.

>> You might be better off without this RAID and backups to the second disk
>> with rsync instead.
>
> Also a good idea, but I had a drive failure /once/ (the only SSD I ever
> bought) and although the system was backed up and restored, it still
> took five hours to restore it to a correctly working state.

By using two disks attached via unreliable connections in a RAID1, you
have more potential points of (unexpected) total failure in your setup
than you would have if you were using one disk while working and the
other one for backups.

For all you know, you can have a problem with the USB connections that
leads to data on both disks being damaged at the same time or close
enough in time as to make (some of) the data unrecoverable.  This is
particularly critical for instances when the RAID needs to be rebuilt,
especially when rebuilding it while you're working with the data.

You are using two disks and two unreliable connections at the same time
because of the RAID.  That increases your chances of a connection going
bad *and* of a disk failure: A disk which is just sitting there, like a
backup disk, is pretty unlikely to go bad while it sits.  A non-existent
connection cannot go bad at all.

When you don't use RAID but a backup, you are very likely to only lose
the changes you have made since the last backup in case a disk fails.
When you use RAID, you may lose all the data.

This odd RAID setup you have doesn't even save you time in case a disk
fails.  Are you really sure that you would want to rebuild the RAID when
a disk has gone bad?  I surely wouldn't do it; I would make a copy
before attempting a rebuild, and that takes time.

You're merely throwing dice with this and are increasing your chances to
lose data.  What you achieve is disadvantages for no advantages at all.

> The failure itself was not the problem -- it was just, that it was
> completely unexpected.

There are no unexpected disk failures.  Disk do fail, the only question
is when.

> Now, I try to avoid this "unexpected" by using RAID.

That's really cool and I appreciate that.  Now you only need to do it
right rather than using RAID to your disadvantage.

> Even if it is unstable, i.e. fails earlier than a better approach
> which was already suggested, I will have a drive fail and /be able to
> take action/ before (all of) the data is lost.

Your chances to take action before all of the data is lost are greater
when you don't use USB for RAID and have backups.

You can lose data without a drive failing by making a mistake.
Accidentially deleting your data is a possibility, and that goes so fast
you got no chance to stop it before considerable damage is done.  You
can also suffer from a power surge which fries all your disks.

You do need backups, and you can easily have one without any additional
cost and even overall increased reliability.

RAID is never a replacement for backups, and the protection it provides
against data loss is limited.  In the first place, RAID is a tool to
avoid downtime.

With the amount of data we store nowadays, classic RAID is even more or
less obsolete because it doesn't provide sufficient protection against
data loss or corruption.  File systems like ZFS seem to be much better
in that regard.  You also should have ECC RAM.

> The instability lays in a single point: Sometimes, upon system startup,
> the drive is not recognized. There has not been a single loss of
> connection while the system was running.

not yet

What if your cat gets (or you get) entangled

Re: SDD I/O very low < 10% normal

On 21/09/14 07:41 PM, KS wrote:
> 
> The hdparm shows much normal buffered disk reads (although only 75% of
> the Intel) but would this setting stick during reboots?
> 

Update: moved the SATA cable from SATA5 to SATA2. and now hdparm shows
udma6 as active mode and buffered disk reads are around 370 MB/s (90% of
Intel 530).

/dev/sdb:
 Timing cached reads:   8190 MB in  2.00 seconds = 4096.73 MB/sec
 Timing buffered disk reads: 1120 MB in  3.01 seconds = 372.54 MB/sec

In the BIOS, the SATA ports are set to IDE. Should they be set to AHCI
instead? (third option is RAID).

KS

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Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate

lee wrote:
> Mike McGinn writes:
> As in any sane system of governance for this type of organization, the
> ones doing the work get to make the decisions.

lee wrote:
> Then please modify Debians' social contract where it says that the users
> are the priority.

It says users are the priority.  It doesn't say they are in charge.  It
means that the developers are to consider the users when making
decisions.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian

2014-09-21 Thread Joel Rees

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that one of the developers
replied to me off-list something like the following, as if to help me
unpack some of what I wrote:

>
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Joel Rees wrote:
> > What problem were you trying to solve when you decided there had to be a 
> > switch?
> >
> > -- you, as an individual, and you, the community of developers?
>
> The systemd position summarizes nicely why SysV isn't tenable:

In other words, you want me to accept the point of view of the systemd
developers?

> Sysvinit was never designed to cope with the dynamic/event-based
> architecture of the current Linux kernel. The only reason why we
> still use it today is the cost of a migration.

Dynamic/event-based?

Okay, that is a bug in the documentation. I suppose the solution is
for someone like me to write a yet another how-to describing a couple
of the easiest ways to handle "dynamic events" in a Unix-like system.

But such books already exist, probably better-written than I can
produce on a part-time/volunteer basis.

The real bug is that such how-tos and books have a limited
monetization potential.

Okay, that is kind of an overly concise explanation, so --

systemd, as a solution to this "problem" is a platform for
systemetizing one of the less flexible solutions to providing event
handling for people who want to use events (dynamically) without
understanding them.

Does that belong at pid 1?

I wouldn't mind a pared-down systemd (even without a name change)
sitting out there somewhere beyond pid 25 or so, as a
quick-and-easy-but-not-really-complete event framework for people who
really don't want to bother understanding events at even the most
basic level. And there would be no problem with using it there for,
say, a desktop environment, because desktop environments shouldn't
know about all the system events. That would be proper modularization,
where the current systemd is not.

I know I'm implicitly disparaging the current developers of certain
very prominent projects, let's ignore that for the moment. The current
developers are not the original ones.

No, I guess that leaves an incomplete response.

Any operating system that envisages itself as nothing but the
underpinnings of a desktop environment envisages itself as essentially
a replacement for the old ("Classic") Macintosh system. That's not a
step forward. A/UX was what, 1988 to 1995? If Apple had been willing
to release that for general users at the price they were then offering
the classic Macintosh, Microsoft would have died a quiet death, and
the world would have been spared some of the worst of the excesses of
the 1990s.

Okay, no, unless Apple had also been willing to go a lot farther with
the licensing program, of course Microsoft would have had a chance to
attract companies that didn't want to be subject to Apple's arcane
policies.

In full technical and historic context, the systemd position is, well,
lewd, untenable, and an insult to their audience.

Let me rephrase that one more time:

The various traditional init processes are nothing but event loops in
a pre-emptive multitasking environment. Events are inherently dynamic
if you treat them that way.

I will acknowledge that there are some things that we could do to
improve the current (sysv) init in debian.

* Get rid of run levels.

* Work with upstream for the various daemons to get everyone to use
more uniform methods for the most basic functions of starting,
stopping, and querying basic status. (Although it's not really that
bad at this point, thinking of runit.)

* Help projects that bring several daemons together to write small
daemons to manage their daemon groups. (No, we do not need cgroups to
do this, either. Just help people write good daemon manager daemons.)

* Maybe add some simple auxiliary daemons to provide quick-and-easy
events and paste-buffer type IPC for new projects that need basic
stuff to get started and don't want to take the time to learn it.

None of that requires anything like systemd, and, in fact, systemd
heads in the wrong direction. The only thing systemd gains here is
forcing the creation of daemon management tools that meet the systemd
paradigm. Whatever that paradigm happens to be today. (The paradigm
has to change, because daemons are not all made equal, and any single
paradigm is going to result in implementation bugs.)

Wait. Let me get that out of paranthesis: Daemons are not all created
equal. One single management paradigm is never going to be sufficient.
Anything like systemd that tries to provide a comprehensive management
framework is forever going to be refining itself in ways that break
things.

(I suppose the systemd contribution in regularizing daemon interfaces
might have some value, but that is not in systemd itself. It's a
side-effect, and, in some cases, it does have daemon being started and
stopped incorrectly.)

> Sysvinit is insufficient for desktops,

... ignoring the fact that gnome 2 worked pretty nicely

Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?

Martin Read writes:
> consolekit is indeed the thing that systemd-logind replaces (and
> systemd-logind was the reason the maintainers of consolekit stopped
> maintaining it).

So who is going to step forward and start maintaining it?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate

2014-09-21 Thread Nate Bargmann

* On 2014 21 Sep 15:10 -0500, lee wrote:
> Mike McGinn  writes:
> 
> > As in any sane system of governance for this type of organization, the
> > ones doing the work get to make the decisions.
> 
> Then please modify Debians' social contract where it says that the users
> are the priority.

I fear that down that path lies madness.  Which group of users takes
precedence?  Is it those who configure and maintain servers, those who
want to use Debian as a desktop, those interested in using Debian as the
basis for embedded systems, some other group?  In these discussions I
see these are competing interests which leads me to think that the
divisions are such that these interests may become mutually exclusive to
the point that Debian sub projects catering to each group will emerge.
Already some exist and they may gain a larger user base.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us

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Re: SDD I/O very low < 10% normal

On 21/09/14 07:08 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> Hi KS,
> 
> Over time, SSD's get, for want of a better word, fragmented. Especially
> if they endure a lot of writes.
> 
> Many times, this "fragmentation" can be corrected. See this:
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/lightrush/random-1/howtoconfigureext4toenabletrimforssdsonubuntu
> 
> HTH,
> 
> SteveT
> 

Thanks for the pointer. I had run fstrim manually during my initial
troubleshooting but it didn't make any noticeable difference.
$> sudo fstrim -v /virtual/

I have rebooted the machine and checked the BIOS - it says that is set
to UDMA6 (same as the Intel drive). Also, checked that the motherboard
(M4A89GTD PRO/USB) has all SATA ports supporting SATA 3.0.

But after reboot the settings seems to have been changed by the BIOS -
(haven't checked VM performance though):

$> sudo hdparm -tT /dev/sdd

/dev/sdd:
 Timing cached reads:   8178 MB in  2.00 seconds = 4089.75 MB/sec
 Timing buffered disk reads: 930 MB in  3.01 seconds = 309.33 MB/sec

sudo hdparm -i /dev/sdd

/dev/sdd:

 Model=KINGSTON SV300S37A240G, FwRev=520ABBF0, SerialNo=
 Config={ HardSect NotMFM HdSw>15uSec Fixed DTR>10Mbs RotSpdTol>.5% }
 RawCHS=16383/16/63, TrkSize=0, SectSize=0, ECCbytes=4
 BuffType=unknown, BuffSize=unknown, MaxMultSect=16, MultSect=16
 CurCHS=16383/16/63, CurSects=16514064, LBA=yes, LBAsects=468862128
 IORDY=on/off, tPIO={min:120,w/IORDY:120}, tDMA={min:120,rec:120}
 PIO modes:  pio0 pio1 pio2 pio3 pio4
 DMA modes:  mdma0 mdma1 mdma2
 UDMA modes: udma0 udma1 *udma2 udma3 udma4 udma5 udma6
 AdvancedPM=yes: unknown setting WriteCache=enabled
 Drive conforms to: unknown:  ATA/ATAPI-2,3,4,5,6,7

 * signifies the current active mode

The hdparm shows much normal buffered disk reads (although only 75% of
the Intel) but would this setting stick during reboots?

KS


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Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?


On 21/09/14 23:47, The Wanderer wrote:

I did mean policykit, but that's because I was talking about my
understanding, which does have policykit in that slot. My understanding
may well be wrong, and if so, consolekit may very well be what *should*
go in that slot instead.


consolekit is indeed the thing that systemd-logind replaces (and 
systemd-logind was the reason the maintainers of consolekit stopped 
maintaining it).



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Re: There is no choice

Steve Litt writes:
> Wow, how things have changed. Whatever happened to "it's ready when
> it's ready?"

It *freezes* Nov. 5.  It's *ready* when it's ready. This is not a new
development.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: SDD I/O very low < 10% normal

On Sun, 21 Sep 2014 18:23:36 -0400
KS  wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I recently reinstalled my system on two SDD that I got (Intel 530
> 240GB -f/w updated and a Kingston SSDNow V300 Series 240GB - f/w
> 520ABFF0 (latest 525ABFF0)). I have the main system running on the
> Intel SSD (LVM) and a partition on the Kingston for my VMs.
> 
> Off lately, I have noticed that the VMs (Windows or Linux) take more
> than a minute to give me the login screen. I have destroyed a Linux
> Mint VM completely and reinstalled it with no change in performance.
> My physical system starts up and gives me the login screen in less
> than 30sec!
> 
> hdparm gives me the performance of Kingston as below (a normal HDD
> gives 75MB/s buffered reads):
> 
> /dev/sdd:
>  Timing buffered disk reads:   8 MB in  3.31 seconds =   2.41 MB/sec
> 
> while the Intel:
> /dev/sda1:
>  Timing buffered disk reads: 186 MB in  0.61 seconds = 304.46 MB/sec
> 
> I haven't been able to find a way to install the latest firmware for
> the Kingston yet. Is there anything else that I can change to get it
> to work normally.
> 
> Thanks,
> KS

Hi KS,

Over time, SSD's get, for want of a better word, fragmented. Especially
if they endure a lot of writes.

Many times, this "fragmentation" can be corrected. See this:

https://sites.google.com/site/lightrush/random-1/howtoconfigureext4toenabletrimforssdsonubuntu

HTH,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: There is no choice

2014-09-21 Thread Don Armstrong

On Sun, 21 Sep 2014, Steve Litt wrote:
> Wow, how things have changed. Whatever happened to "it's ready when
> it's ready?"

That quote referring to the release, which is distinct from when testing
freezes. Testing is rarely ready, which is why we have to freeze it in
the first place.

Once all of the RC bugs are fixed in testing, then we release.

-- 
Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com

If you wish to strive for peace of soul, then believe; if you wish to
be a devotee of truth, then inquire.
 -- Friedrich Nietzsche


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Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?

2014-09-21 Thread The Wanderer

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 09/21/2014 at 06:05 PM, Brian wrote:

> On Sun 21 Sep 2014 at 14:40:13 -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> 
>> On 09/21/2014 at 01:37 PM, John Hasler wrote:
>>> 
>>> What did those packages do for that functionality before
>>> systemd existed?
>> 
>> According to my understanding, either they depended on policykit 
>> (which used to provide such, or at least related, functionality, 
>> and which is now unsupported and may be unsuitable for other 
>> reasons as well), or they didn't yet include the features which 
>> that functionality enables.
> 
> Is it possible you mean consolekit, not policykit?

I did mean policykit, but that's because I was talking about my
understanding, which does have policykit in that slot. My understanding
may well be wrong, and if so, consolekit may very well be what *should*
go in that slot instead.

- -- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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Re: excessive CPU usage

I wouldn't want to speculate before using htop and iotop, but for many
of the years I used Kmail (and therefore the KDE libraries), I
regularly had dbus-daemon instances go rogue and eat up 98% of the
processor. It got so bad that I made a daemon to go out every 5
seconds, find any dbus-daemon instances that had been > 95% for two
cycles in a row, and kill them.

So, if the OP finds out that dbus-daemon *is* the problem (which is
unlikely just because of the huge number of possible causes), I can
give him the daemon.

SteveT

On Sun, 21 Sep 2014 15:08:26 -0400
Gary Dale  wrote:

> Could be virtuoso or nepomuk. I had similar problems from time to
> time that were traced to one of those two programs.
> 
> 
> On 21/09/14 02:54 PM, Gary Roach wrote:
> > Hi all
> >
> > For the last few months I have been plagued by very slow response
> > from my system. As an example, it takes 2 1/2 minutes to drag and
> > drop 80 files from my email inbox to the trash bin in icedove. It
> > has taken as high as 5 minutes for iceweasel to load. This problem
> > is not just these packages but also applies to all of the rest of
> > my programs.
> >
> > I am using Debian Wheezy with a i5750 4 core processor on a fast
> > Intel board. I run a kde desktop. All the software is up to date.
> >
> > I have checked all of the log files and can't find any anomalies. 
> > Rebooting doesn't help.
> >
> > Using the KDE System Monitor (ksysguard) I have noticed that at
> > least one of the processors goes to 100% and stays there for long
> > periods even though there is no noticeable activity in the process
> > tables. The only other thing I have noticed (the printing just hung
> > up while I am writing this) is that the hard drive indicator comes
> > on and stays on during the processor activity. I ran some checks on
> > the hard drive but found no indication of any hard drive problems.
> >
> > Has anyone else had a similar problem or have any idea what is
> > going on.
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
> > Gary R.
> >
> >
> 
> 



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Re: excessive CPU usage

On Sun, 21 Sep 2014 22:58:38 +0400
Reco  wrote:

>  Hi.
> 
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:54:01 -0700
> Gary Roach  wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone else had a similar problem or have any idea what is
> > going on.
> 
> apt-get install iotop.
> Run iotop as root once you experience a slowdown.
> The process on top of the list is the one which's causing all this
> mess on your PC (most probably, as there may be several of them).

Very nice!

Thanks for the tip.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: SDD I/O very low < 10% normal

On 21/09/14 06:23 PM, KS wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I recently reinstalled my system on two SDD that I got (Intel 530 240GB
> -f/w updated and a Kingston SSDNow V300 Series 240GB - f/w 520ABFF0
> (latest 525ABFF0)). I have the main system running on the Intel SSD
> (LVM) and a partition on the Kingston for my VMs.
> 
> Off lately, I have noticed that the VMs (Windows or Linux) take more
> than a minute to give me the login screen. I have destroyed a Linux Mint
> VM completely and reinstalled it with no change in performance. My
> physical system starts up and gives me the login screen in less than 30sec!
> 
> hdparm gives me the performance of Kingston as below (a normal HDD gives
> 75MB/s buffered reads):
> 
> /dev/sdd:
>  Timing buffered disk reads:   8 MB in  3.31 seconds =   2.41 MB/sec
> 
> while the Intel:
> /dev/sda1:
>  Timing buffered disk reads: 186 MB in  0.61 seconds = 304.46 MB/sec
> 
Another piece of information:
smartmontools shows for Kingston
SATA Version is:  SATA 3.0, 6.0 Gb/s (current: 6.0 Gb/s)

but hdparm -i /dev/sdd does not indicate UDMA setting
 PIO modes:  pio0 pio1 pio2 pio3 pio4
 DMA modes:  mdma0 mdma1 mdma2
 UDMA modes: udma0 udma1 udma2 udma3 udma4 udma5 udma6

The Intel shows that it is udma6 though.

KS


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Re: There is no choice

On Sun, 21 Sep 2014 18:42:18 +
"Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:


> Jessie freezes no later than November 5th 2014. Allow folk who are
> trying to work on the distribution to work on it and not to have to
> intervene in this sort of discussion, please.

Wow, how things have changed. Whatever happened to "it's ready when
it's ready?"

http://troubleshooters.com/tpromag/199906/_debian.htm

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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SDD I/O very low < 10% normal

Hi all,

I recently reinstalled my system on two SDD that I got (Intel 530 240GB
-f/w updated and a Kingston SSDNow V300 Series 240GB - f/w 520ABFF0
(latest 525ABFF0)). I have the main system running on the Intel SSD
(LVM) and a partition on the Kingston for my VMs.

Off lately, I have noticed that the VMs (Windows or Linux) take more
than a minute to give me the login screen. I have destroyed a Linux Mint
VM completely and reinstalled it with no change in performance. My
physical system starts up and gives me the login screen in less than 30sec!

hdparm gives me the performance of Kingston as below (a normal HDD gives
75MB/s buffered reads):

/dev/sdd:
 Timing buffered disk reads:   8 MB in  3.31 seconds =   2.41 MB/sec

while the Intel:
/dev/sda1:
 Timing buffered disk reads: 186 MB in  0.61 seconds = 304.46 MB/sec

I haven't been able to find a way to install the latest firmware for the
Kingston yet. Is there anything else that I can change to get it to work
normally.

Thanks,
KS


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fvwm: was i3 sticky/floating windows (brasero requires gvfs)

On Sun, 21 Sep 2014 17:48:13 +0200
lee  wrote:

> So i3 doesn't have any advantages for me --- fvwm is much more
> flexible and without the utter confusion that arises when you try to
> arrange a number of windows in a particular manner with i3.  It even
> wastes less screen space than i3 because I don't need a status bar
> and no containers.

Hi Lee,

Because you use fvwm on a regular basis, you should write some
documentation on it. I know it's excellent because I've seen people
operate it in a fast and efficient manner, but because I don't know
what I'm doing and I have little fvwm documentation, every time I try
to use fvwm things go wrong fast.

I'm pretty sure that fvwm is native on OpenBSD, and some "small" Linux
distros.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

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Re: i3 sticky/floating windows (brasero requires gvfs)

2014-09-21 Thread green

lee wrote at 2014-09-21 10:48 -0500:
> With fvwm, I can have sticky floating windows that stay on top.  This
> allows me to watch the movie, no matter to which desktop I switch, and
> no other window will come up above the movie, so I can always watch it.
> 
> Moreover, fvwm is somewhat capable of tiling windows for me.  I have a
> couple menu entries with which I can arrange 2--4 windows either
> horizontally or vertically if I want to.  I rarely use that because
> pretty much all my windows are full screen, and when I need it, it works
> fine.

> There's a feature request as a bug report with i3, and I think they're
> going to implement sticky floating windows sooner or later.

That sounds useful, I hope it gets implemented sometime.


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Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?

On Sun 21 Sep 2014 at 14:40:13 -0400, The Wanderer wrote:

> On 09/21/2014 at 01:37 PM, John Hasler wrote:
> > 
> > What did those packages do for that functionality before systemd 
> > existed?
> 
> According to my understanding, either they depended on policykit (which
> used to provide such, or at least related, functionality, and which is
> now unsupported and may be unsuitable for other reasons as well), or
> they didn't yet include the features which that functionality enables.

Is it possible you mean consolekit, not policykit?


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Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?

On Sun 21 Sep 2014 at 18:08:58 +0100, Martin Read wrote:

> As far as the Debian-related aspects of the matter are concerned, it
> seems to me that it would not be unreasonable to file bugs against
> sysvinit-core and upstart suggesting that they should have a
> Recommends: reference to systemd-shim.

A systemd-shim maintainer would disagree:
 
  > In that case, perhaps the alternate init systems should Recommend
  > systemd-shim?
  No, that's not the true package relationship.  There's no reason that you
  should always get this added service by default when you install a system
  with non-systemd init that doesn't need logind.  Making this a recommends
  would be a workaround for bad metadata in the libpam-systemd package; we
  should fix that problem at its source the right way.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/09/msg00164.html


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Re: Systemd, systemd, and more systemd ...

2014-09-21 Thread David L. Craig

On 14Sep21:2227+0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sun 21 Sep 2014 at 16:29:53 -0400, David L. Craig wrote:
> 
> > On 14Sep21:1827+0100, Brian wrote:
> > 
> > > Apart from using a Beta 1 D-I i386 netinst and installing to a real
> > > machine I did the same as you a couple of days ago. No problems
> > > upgrading to unstable. Far be it for me to suggest any bugs in qemu
> > > or kvm, but we do have quite a difference in our experience.
> > 
> > You probably missed the last paragraph of the report--it broke
> > my non-vm Sid first--I duplicated the failure in the vm with
> > the bare minimum of software.
> 
> No, I didn't miss it. Just as you didn't miss the observation that
> your experience is not repeatable here.

Correct, I did not.  What does that have to do with
qemu or kvm when the initial manifestation was in the
non-virtual Sid on my box?
-- 

May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!

Dave_Craig__
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
 You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
 Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_


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Re: starting exim4 takes ages

On Sun 21 Sep 2014 at 21:01:17 +0200, lee wrote:

> Brian  writes:
> 
> > On Sun 21 Sep 2014 at 14:40:31 +0200, lee wrote:
> >
> >> what might be the reason for exim4 taking ages (i. e. minutes) to start
> >> when booting?  The boot process keeps waiting until exim has started.
> >> 
> >> Exim has been configured with 'dpkg-reconfigure exim4-config'.
> >
> > What is dc_minimaldns in /etc/exim4/update-exim4.conf.conf?
> 
> dc_minimaldns='false'

This is sensible.

Would you please quantify the time waiting for exim to start more
precisely? You get the same delay with 'service exim4 restart'?


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Re: Upgrading to Jessie

2014-09-21 Thread Bob Proulx

Joel Rees wrote:
> Ric Moore wrote:
> > There ya go, install the good stuff directories to /opt// (on an
> > /opt partition) and after create links to them in your new /home//
> > directory. Just don't blow up /opt by re-formating it. :) Ric
> 
> Hasn't /opt been traditionally used for installing (as from upstream,
> rather than from the package manager) packages that for some reason
> need to be kept out of the stuff managed as a part of the distro? In
> other words, as a kind of a /usr/local , but separate from the /usr
> filesystem?

Unix vendors such as HP-UX and others would use /opt for their own
installations.  The FHS allows it.  Package managers can either manage
files there or not.  It is allowed.  If good naming is done then there
won't be any collisions.  The system can manage files there with a
package manager.  The local user/admin can put local files there.  For
the local user it is somewhat like /usr/local in concept but
everything must be under a top level name.

This use goes back to the early days of the FHS and isn't a
"traditional" Unix thing in the sense of Unix v7.  This use is a newer
use and continues through the current day.

Debian as an organization has decided to do nothing with /opt other
than to acknowledge that it is available.  Debian packages will not
install anything there.  Other systems have their own policy.

> As a suggestion for individual consideration, not trying to tell
> anyone they have to do this, but, why not, as Steve Litt suggests, add
> a mount point under the root directory, with a (preferably short) name
> that lets you know why it's there and otherwise keeps it out of the
> name spaces debian will will do its job in?
> 
> I do this myself, something like /usbk as a mount point for a
> partition with directories I use to save intermediate copies of stuff
> I'm working on, including entire project source trees in some cases,
> and /ussh for directories with permissions set to share with other
> users.

That is all good for local conventions.  I personally don't feel
strongly one way or the other.  It is more important that things be
named in such a way that they make sense and are self-documenting
concerning what they are and what they are doing there.  Names like
user backup and user shared as you have above with usbk and ussh are
good.

I tend to create more rigorous processes for services such as backup
and therefore put those under /srv/backup.  But for example I have a
/var/local mount point with a large partition there for local variable
temporary "stuff" that doesn't fit anywhere else that I also don't
want backed up.

Bob

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Re: Systemd, systemd, and more systemd ...

On Sun 21 Sep 2014 at 16:29:53 -0400, David L. Craig wrote:

> On 14Sep21:1827+0100, Brian wrote:
> 
> > Apart from using a Beta 1 D-I i386 netinst and installing to a real
> > machine I did the same as you a couple of days ago. No problems
> > upgrading to unstable. Far be it for me to suggest any bugs in qemu
> > or kvm, but we do have quite a difference in our experience.
> 
> You probably missed the last paragraph of the report--it broke
> my non-vm Sid first--I duplicated the failure in the vm with
> the bare minimum of software.

No, I didn't miss it. Just as you didn't miss the observation that
your experience is not repeatable here.


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Re: Jessie and Systemd integration

2014-09-21 Thread Bob Proulx

Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> T.J. Duchene wrote:
> > Why is it not possible to create a completely generic shell script -
> > basically ala SysV  that can parse systemd config files for those use cases
> > where Systemd is undesirable?
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/02/msg00106.html

Not quite.  As I read things Petter Reinholdtsen's shell modules turn
the traditional shell program into a declarative syntax.  (For those
people who prefer a declarative syntax in the init system.)  But it
does not read and does not parse systemd config files.  That feature
is not addressed by the above.  Unless I am missing something.

Bob

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Re: starting exim4 takes ages

2014-09-21 Thread Sven Hartge

Jonathan Dowland  wrote:

> What init system are you using?  If systemd, you might be able to find
> out by inspecting the log for the exim4 service unit, once it has
> finally started. 'systemd status -l exim4.service' is probably one way

FTR:

systemctl status -l exim4.service

Grüße,
Sven.

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Re: MDADM RAID1 of external USB 3.0 Drives

2014-09-21 Thread Linux-Fan

On 09/21/2014 08:41 PM, lee wrote:
> Linux-Fan  writes:
>>> On 09/20/2014 04:55 PM, lee wrote:
>>> Other than that, in my experience Seagate disks my have an unusually
>>> high failure rate.
>>
>> Mine all work here. SMART reports
> 
> They'll work until they fail.  I don't believe in the smart-info.

I do not trust SMART to be a reliable means of failure-prevention either
(the only failure I ever had occurred without any SMART warning), but
the "counters" especially for such normal things like power-on hours or
power-cycle counts are reliable as far as I can tell. Also, the drive is
used and filled with my data which all seems to be readable and correct.

>> The "unreliability" has just happened again and using the edited
>> initscript it was really simple to solve. It said "... errors ... Press
>> Ctrl-D or give root password ..." and I entered the password, typed
>> reboot and it recognized the disks again. Cost: 45 sec per week or so.
> 
> You rebuild the RAID within 45 seconds?  And you realise that RAID has a
> reputation to fail beyond recovery preferably during rebuilds?

No, I did not rebuild because it is not necessary as the data has not
changed and the RAID had not been assembled (degraded) yet.

And the second statement was the very reason for me starting this thread.

> You might be better off without this RAID and backups to the second disk
> with rsync instead.

Also a good idea, but I had a drive failure /once/ (the only SSD I ever
bought) and although the system was backed up and restored, it still
took five hours to restore it to a correctly working state. The failure
itself was not the problem -- it was just, that it was completely
unexpected. Now, I try to avoid this "unexpected" by using RAID. Even if
it is unstable, i.e. fails earlier than a better approach which was
already suggested, I will have a drive fail and /be able to take action/
before (all of) the data is lost.

>> Still, I am going to use the disks for now -- I can afford a bit of
>> extra-maintenace time because I am always interested in getting the
>> maximum out of the harware /available/
> 
> Running hardware on the edge of what it is capable of is generally a
> recipe for failure.  You may be able to do it with hardware designed for
> it, like server class hardware.
> 
> It's not what you're doing, though.  You're kinda testing out the limits
> of USB connections and have found out that they are not up to your
> requirements by far.

The instability lays in a single point: Sometimes, upon system startup,
the drive is not recognized. There has not been a single loss of
connection while the system was running.

The only problem with that instability was that it caused the RAID to
need a rebuild as it came up degraded (because one drive was missing).
And, as already mentioned, having to rebuild an array about once a week
is a bad thing.

Making the boot fail if the drive has not been recognized solved this
issue: I can reboot manually and the RAID continues to work properly,
because it behaves as if the failed boot had never occurred: Both drives
are "there" again and therefore MDADM accepts this as a normally
functioning RAID without rebuild.

>> (otherwise I should have gone with hardware RAID from the very
>> beginning and I might be using RHEL, because they offer support and my
>> system is certified to run a specific RHEL version, etc.).
> 
> Hardware RAID has its own advantages and disadvantages, and ZFS might be
> a better choice.  Your system being specified for a particular version
> of RHEL only helps you as long as this particular version is
> sufficiently up to date --- and AFAIK you'd have to pay for the support.
> You might be better off with Centos, if you don't mind systemd.

I do not /want/ to use RHEL (because otherwiese, I would indeed run
CentOS), I only wanted to express that if I did not have any time for
system maintenance, I would pay for the support and be done with all
that "OS-stuff". Instead, I now run a system without
(commercial/granted) support and therefore explicitly accept some
maintenance by my own including the ability/necessity to spend some time
on configuring an imperfect setup which includes USB disks.

>> On the other hand, I have learned my lesson and will not rely on USB
>> disks for "permantently attached storage" again /in the future/.
> 
> USB isn't even suited for temporarily attached storage.

If I had to backup a medium amount of data, I would (still) save it to
an external USB HDD -- why is this such a bad idea? Sure, most admins
recommend tapes, but reading/writing tapes on a desktop requires
equipment about as expensive as a new computer. Also, my backup strategy
always includes the simple question: "How would I access my data from
any system?" "Any system" being thought of as the average Windows
machine without any fancy devices to rely on.

Linux-Fan

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Re: Random


On 21/09/14 20:41, David Baron wrote:

On Sunday 21 September 2014 20:24:08 Martin Read wrote:

Application software usually initializes its internal pseudorandom
number generator using inputs like the current system time. Since you
haven't mentioned any of the affected programs by name, it's difficult
to comment on what might be going wrong.


One example Bubbleshooter.swf (flash game). Always starts with same pattern and
starting balls. Game play progression depends upon player's aim, of course.


Since I have no idea how said flash game tries to initialize its PRNG 
state, and a cursory look around on the internet suggests that its 
source code is not readily available to the public, I'm not even going 
to try to debug that.


Do you have an example that *doesn't* involve SWFs?


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Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian

2014-09-21 Thread Marty


On 09/21/2014 01:12 AM, Don Armstrong wrote:

On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Then please explain to us why, with all of the negative technical
aspects surrounding systemd, it looks to be the default init in
Jessie.


You can start by reading why I voted for systemd:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708#3661


My summary of key points (about the discussion, not you personally):

1) The bug report leading to the decision is about "dependencies / 
conflicts." (The fix is to add even more dependencies and conflicts.)


2) Why the rush? Pressure from upstream. (Decision by hostage taking. 
"One init, or the Gnome gets it.")


3) We can't agree (so give them what they want).

4) We all like user choice (too bad we can't have it).

5) A technical committee decides an issue with vast non-technical 
implications. (What could possibly go wrong?)


6) There is no plan to address vendor lock-in and dependencies which 
caused the "bug." Even a warning proposal fails.


Looking in from the outside, the whole process seems incredibly myopic. 
The likely effect (already beginning) will be significant upgrade churn 
and backwards incompatibility, without commensurate benefits. The reward 
for those efforts will be additional gratuitous dependencies, fewer 
options, less control and less freedom.


The kernel has Linus to defend it. We have this sham, along with the 
unwanted Red Hat bundleware with more to follow. The empty promise of 
user choice was a smokescreen. Debian speak with forked tongue.



What I don't understand is that criticism and other forms of speaking
up cannot be considered as a form of contribution.


Constructive criticism is often a useful contribution. Destructive
criticism, much less so.

Disagree all you want, but don't malign others when you do so. (Or at
least, don't do it on Debian communication infrastructure.)


The time to consider the effect on volunteers was when you were making 
the decision. The time to consider the effect on future devs, who might 
be interested in fixing this, is now. It's unclear that Debian even 
admits the problem exists, much less that it is willing to address it.






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Re: The way of becoming a DM/DD?

2014-09-21 Thread Jonathan Dowland

On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 03:42:11AM +1200, Chris Bannister wrote:
> Try and pick a package which you are familiar with and intend on
> maintaining for a while, it is a bad idea and frowned upon to pick *any*
> package just to get your foot in the door. 

Asides from picking a new package, I'd recommend joining a team which
maintains an existing package. You can do the "fly on the wall" thing
on a commit-by-commit basis, and your first contribution can be as
simple as spelling correction, as appose to an entire package from
scratch.

See also the debian-mentors mailing list, where such things are on-topic.

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Re: starting exim4 takes ages

2014-09-21 Thread Jonathan Dowland

On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 02:40:31PM +0200, lee wrote:
> what might be the reason for exim4 taking ages (i. e. minutes) to start
> when booting?  The boot process keeps waiting until exim has started.

What init system are you using?  If systemd, you might be able to find
out by inspecting the log for the exim4 service unit, once it has
finally started. 'systemd status -l exim4.service' is probably one way
to do that (my systemd-running machine is not presently available for
me to confirm, as I'm moving it between rooms).

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Re: There is no choice


On 21/09/14 16:15, lee wrote:

Martin Read  writes:

Nothing about the process of providing a Debian package looks
ridiculously difficult to me.


I started to read the huge documentation about how to do it and didn't
get anywhere with it.


I had that experience. Then I found these convenient pages on the Debian 
wiki instead:


https://wiki.debian.org/IntroDebianPackaging
https://wiki.debian.org/HowToPackageForDebian
https://wiki.debian.org/UpstreamGuide

and suddenly it all felt much more civilized. (Honestly, getting my 
Makefile and hand-rolled configure script "up to code" were more hassle 
than the actual process of Debianizing it once I had my DESTDIR support 
and out-of-tree build support implemented.)



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Re: Systemd, systemd, and more systemd ...

2014-09-21 Thread David L. Craig

On 14Sep21:1827+0100, Brian wrote:

> Apart from using a Beta 1 D-I i386 netinst and installing to a real
> machine I did the same as you a couple of days ago. No problems
> upgrading to unstable. Far be it for me to suggest any bugs in qemu
> or kvm, but we do have quite a difference in our experience.

You probably missed the last paragraph of the report--it broke
my non-vm Sid first--I duplicated the failure in the vm with
the bare minimum of software.
-- 

May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!

Dave_Craig__
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
 You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
 Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_

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Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate (was Re: Issues upgrading Wheezy --> Jessie (was ... Re: brasero requires

2014-09-21 Thread Joel Roth

On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 06:11:53PM +0200, lee wrote:
> Joel Roth  writes:
> 
> > I think it should be possible to find or create a forum for
> > those who are concerned about this issue. I know that 
> > I would subscribe.
> 
> That would make it easier to ignore them.  Wouldn't it make more sense
> to create a list for people interested in alternatives to systemd?

I created a list, modular-deb...@freelists.org. The name
suggest the direction of a Debian created of loosely coupled
components, an alternative systemd's monolithic approach.

You can subscribe by mailing to
modular-debian-requ...@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in
the subject.

Today's surfing turned up these links:

boycott systemd - a good starting point

http://boycottsystemd.org/

uselessd - attempting a sane fork of systemd, active project

http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/

mdev: an alternative to udev

http://www.snafu.priv.at/interests/debian/mdev.html - 2012!

http://git.busybox.net/busybox/plain/docs/mdev.txt

http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev

http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2005-December/051272.html

http://wildanm.wordpress.com/2007/08/21/mdev-mini-udev-in-busybox/

Cheers,

Joel Roth
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Re: starting exim4 takes ages

2014-09-21 Thread Sven Hartge

lee  wrote:
> Sven Hartge  writes:
>> lee  wrote:

>>> what might be the reason for exim4 taking ages (i. e. minutes) to
>>> start when booting?  The boot process keeps waiting until exim has
>>> started.
>>
>> Maybe the network is not up or the nameserver is not responding.
>> exim4 does quite some DNS lookups during startup and if name
>> resolution is not possible, you get the behavior you are seeing.

> The network is up and the name server is responding.

Did you test this during the boot sequenze oder after?

Is your network configured statically or via DHCP? If the latter, the
aquisition of an IP might take to long.

Grüße,
Sven.

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systemd/cgroups changing permissions (was: Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian)

2014-09-21 Thread Ansgar Burchardt

Hi Joel,

Joel Rees  writes:
> (6) systemd and cgroups (at minimum) end up overriding the permissions
> system. It's bad enough having SELinux and ACLs brought in to knock
> holes in the permissions system, but when arbitrary non-kernel system
> functions start getting their hands into the equation, there is no way
> to be sure that when you set any particular file under /etc or under
> ~/ -- including /etc/ssh and ~/.shh -- as mode 740, that the effective
> permissions don't end up 666 or 1147. In this case, even pid 1 is a
> group of arbitrary non-kernel functions.
>
> Permissions and race conditions are not the only ways that the
> modularity of these technologies is broken. I'm not going to try to
> enumerate them here.

I'm interested how use of systemd and cgroups will make a file in
/etc/ssh or ~/.ssh change effective permissions. Could you explain that
in simple, reproducible steps?

Ansgar


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Re: excessive CPU usage

2014-09-21 Thread Håkon Alstadheim


On 21. sep. 2014 20:54, Gary Roach wrote:

Hi all

For the last few months I have been plagued by very slow response from 
my system.

...
at least one of the processors goes to 100% and stays there for long 
periods 

...

no noticeable activity in the process tables.

...

hard drive indicator comes on and stays on


Are your drives healthy?
What is then number in front of "wa" in the "top" output?
Are you running smartd/smartmontools?

If you are running a raid setup with redundancy, you should shorten the 
error-timeouts on your drives to 7 seconds, with "smartctl -l scterc,70,70".

If you are not running a raid level > 0, go buy a mirror drive stat.


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Re: Debian/Linux equivalent of RDP session / remote X11 session

2014-09-21 Thread Paul van der Vlis

op 21-09-14 14:33, lee schreef:
> Hi,
> 
> what's the Debian or Linux equivalent to MS Windows terminal server
> sessions through the remote desktop thing they have?
> 
> I would like to be able to let a user work remotely in an X11 session
> (preferably with fvwm, if I have to xfce, if it can't be avoided gnome
> --- KDE only crashes in vncserver) on a VM running Debian.  The user can
> either get a thin client (which I'd have to buy) or an older Mac for a
> client system.  It would be an advantage if it was possible to do this
> transparently for the user.  It would also be nice if I could limit the
> total memory usage for that user.  The client is connected through 1GB
> LAN.  If Linux can be installed on the Mac, that might also be an
> option.
> 
> So far, neither vncserver, nor freenx are ideal.  Vncserver is rather
> awkward, freenx is ancient.  LTSP seems way overdone for this and
> apparently requires suitable thin clients.

Take a look at x2go. http://www.x2go.org/

The client is in Debian, the server is not. Reason is code duplication
(it's NX based).

There are clients for Linux/Windows/Mac.

It does not work with Gnome3 in 3D mode on Wheezy.

There is an active community.

With regards,
Paul van de Vlis.





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http://www.vandervlis.nl


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Re: Systemd, systemd, and more systemd ...

David Baron  writes:

> Aside from that, systemd works great, is lightening-fast, had no problems 
> with 
> it! So why all the fuss.

That an init system is being replaced is not even scratching the surface
of the issue, partly because of issues the init system intended to
replace the existing one and its developers have, partly because of
other issues.

Just by using systemd, you're not likely to become aware of these
issues, at least not as long as you're happy with the way it works or
doesn't work.

Please feel free to read up the discussions here and/or at other places
to understand what it all is about.  It would be unwise to repeat it all
here.

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Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate

Mike McGinn  writes:

> As in any sane system of governance for this type of organization, the
> ones doing the work get to make the decisions.

Then please modify Debians' social contract where it says that the users
are the priority.

Should I make a bug report for this?


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Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate (was Re: Issues upgrading Wheezy --> Jessie (was ... Re: brasero requires

Joel Roth  writes:

> I think it should be possible to find or create a forum for
> those who are concerned about this issue. I know that 
> I would subscribe.

That would make it easier to ignore them.  Wouldn't it make more sense
to create a list for people interested in alternatives to systemd?


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Re: There is no choice

2014-09-21 Thread Jerry Stuckle

On 9/21/2014 2:39 PM, Ста Деюс wrote:
> Доброго времени суток, Miles.
> 
> 
> Спасибо за ответ, Sun, 21 Sep 2014 13:23:57 -0400 вы писали:
 I haven't said much until now, but I have followed the subject in
 depth the whole time.  And I, for one, am very happy this was
 brought to my attention.  It has allowed me to make an intelligent
 decision as to whether to upgrade or go to another distro.  
>>> I'm going to (re)try Gentoo next weekend, and Funtoo the weekend
>>> after that. I had originally written off Gentoo as way too much of
>>> a hassle, but a read part way through
>>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708 has made me
>>> willing to accept a much higher hassle level to continue using a
>>> modular, sane and POSIX operating system.  
>>
>> I'm seriously thinking either Slackware or Linux-From-Scratch (which 
>> moved from systemd-udev to eudev recently).  Or SmarOS - which is 
>> starting to look awfully sweet.
> 
> I will repeat my opinion: you will benefit from going to another
> distro so long, as the US/Euro fashists come not to those distros.
> 
> So to conqueror their spyware (the so called «systemd») is by choosing
> a country that would protect you or software (the free). – This is a
> general war, not particular one. – For whole planet, not a single
> country. – Capitalism against human. So...
> 
> 
> С уважением,
> Ста.
> 
> 

Exactly what are the "US/Euro fashists (sic)" doing to harm you?  And
which distro has no one from the US or Europe helping with it?

And how is systemd spyware?  I don't like it for a number of reasons -
but please show us where systemd is spyware.  The source code is open to
all.

Even the Linux kernel itself seems to fall in your "US/Euro fashist"
category.  So I guess you can't use Linux.

Maybe you can create your own OS?

Jerry


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Re: Debian/Linux equivalent of RDP session / remote X11 session

John Hasler  writes:

> lee writes:
>> what's the Debian or Linux equivalent to MS Windows terminal server
>> sessions through the remote desktop thing they have?
>
>> I would like to be able to let a user work remotely in an X11 session
>> (preferably with fvwm, if I have to xfce, if it can't be avoided gnome
>> --- KDE only crashes in vncserver) on a VM running Debian.
>
> X11 is network-transparent. Support for remote sessions has been built
> in from day one.  Just run an X server on the remote machine and
> configure it to connect to the VM instance.  Use ssh unless the
> connection will be local.

How would I generally configure a client to magically start all
applications on the server?  Especially with a Mac or a thin client,
that seems difficult to do?

I'm already doing this for some apps on my desktop, and it's nowhere
near a transparent solution.


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Re: starting exim4 takes ages

Brian  writes:

> On Sun 21 Sep 2014 at 14:40:31 +0200, lee wrote:
>
>> what might be the reason for exim4 taking ages (i. e. minutes) to start
>> when booting?  The boot process keeps waiting until exim has started.
>> 
>> Exim has been configured with 'dpkg-reconfigure exim4-config'.
>
> What is dc_minimaldns in /etc/exim4/update-exim4.conf.conf?

dc_minimaldns='false'


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Re: MDADM RAID1 of external USB 3.0 Drives

Linux-Fan  writes:

>> On 09/20/2014 04:55 PM, lee wrote:
>
>> Other than that, in my experience Seagate disks my have an unusually
>> high failure rate.
>
> Mine all work here. SMART reports

They'll work until they fail.  I don't believe in the smart-info.

> The "unreliability" has just happened again and using the edited
> initscript it was really simple to solve. It said "... errors ... Press
> Ctrl-D or give root password ..." and I entered the password, typed
> reboot and it recognized the disks again. Cost: 45 sec per week or so.

You rebuild the RAID within 45 seconds?  And you realise that RAID has a
reputation to fail beyond recovery preferably during rebuilds?

You might be better off without this RAID and backups to the second disk
with rsync instead.

>> What's "a business class computer"?
>
> Any tower a company only offers when you go to the "Business" section on
> their respective website. (It is not really exactly defined -- another
> definition could be: "Any machine which does not have any shiny plastic
> parts" :) )

It doesn't mean anything then.

>> I've come to tend to buy used server class hardware whenever it's
>> suitable, based on the experience that the quality is much better than
>> otherwise, on the assumption that it'll be more reliable and because
>> there isn't any better for the money.  So far, performance is also
>> stunning.  This stuff is really a bargain.
>
> Sounds good. I also considered buying a server as my main system
> (instead of what HP calls a "Workstation") because it seemed to offer
> more HDD slots and the same computing power for a lower price but I was
> never sure how good real server hardware's compatibility with "normal"
> graphics cards is.

For a desktop, just pick a case and the components as it suits your
needs and put your own computer together.

Servers are usually not designed for graphics.  Mine has some integrated
card which is lousy --- and it's sufficient for a server.  I could
probably add some graphics card as long as it's PCIe and low profile (or
fits into the riser card) and doesn't need an extra power supply.

> Still, I am going to use the disks for now -- I can afford a bit of
> extra-maintenace time because I am always interested in getting the
> maximum out of the harware /available/

Running hardware on the edge of what it is capable of is generally a
recipe for failure.  You may be able to do it with hardware designed for
it, like server class hardware.

It's not what you're doing, though.  You're kinda testing out the limits
of USB connections and have found out that they are not up to your
requirements by far.

> (otherwise I should have gone with hardware RAID from the very
> beginning and I might be using RHEL, because they offer support and my
> system is certified to run a specific RHEL version, etc.).

Hardware RAID has its own advantages and disadvantages, and ZFS might be
a better choice.  Your system being specified for a particular version
of RHEL only helps you as long as this particular version is
sufficiently up to date --- and AFAIK you'd have to pay for the support.
You might be better off with Centos, if you don't mind systemd.

> On the other hand, I have learned my lesson and will not rely on USB
> disks for "permantently attached storage" again /in the future/.

USB isn't even suited for temporarily attached storage.

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Re: brasero requires gvfs

Reco  writes:

>  Hi.
>
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014 20:34:28 +0200
> lee  wrote:
>
>> > My biggest problem is I can't yet get qemu to run Debian or Ubuntu VMs
>> > on OpenBSD, for those few programs that don't run on OpenBSD.
>> 
>> And you can't use xen?
>
> You're probably mistook NetBSD (which can serve as dom0 for xen) with
> OpenBSD (which can not).
>
> Presumably you can build qemu for OpenBSD, but it would be
> un-accelerated one (i.e. turtle-slow and very hungry for the CPU).

I just don't know; I've never done anything with BSD.  When xen cannot
be used with it, it's not really an alternative.


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Re: There is no choice

Martin Read  writes:

> On 21/09/14 04:14, lee wrote:
>> Try to provide a Debian package and you'll see that it is so
>> ridiculously difficult that it is virtually impossible.
>
> Nothing about the process of providing a Debian package looks
> ridiculously difficult to me.

I started to read the huge documentation about how to do it and didn't
get anywhere with it.  I just put my software on github instead.

>> As you can see, it's not only Debian developers I'm disappointed with.
>> Sadly, the quality of Debian has declined over the years --- and I'm not
>> the only one saying that --- and one of the reasons for this might be
>> disregard for the users.
>
> My mileage varies; in my experience, Debian in 2014 is a
> higher-quality distribution than Debian in 2004. The obvious example
> is that sound (for all practical purposes) Just Works on my current
> Debian system (all I had to do was pop open pavucontrol and tweak the
> sliders), whereas in 2004 or 2006 it definitely didn't Just Work.

Sound worked fine here in 2004 and 2006, and before that.  I don't know
what pavucontrol is.

In 2004 and before, you were usually able to solve whatever problem you
encountered, either with help from this list or by making bug
reports. And you didn't really have any.  Over the years, you could fix
problems less and less, and you got more of them, until, IIRC, 2013 when
you were suddenly left stranded with a non-working system when you
required 32bit support.  I had to switch to Fedora --- and I could say
something about the attitude of the Debian developers back then, but I
don't because that is apparently not allowed on Debian communication
infrastructure.

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Re: starting exim4 takes ages

Sven Hartge  writes:

> lee  wrote:
>
>> what might be the reason for exim4 taking ages (i. e. minutes) to
>> start when booting?  The boot process keeps waiting until exim has
>> started.
>
> Maybe the network is not up or the nameserver is not responding. exim4
> does quite some DNS lookups during startup and if name resolution is not
> possible, you get the behavior you are seeing.

The network is up and the name server is responding.  I could enable the
client log for the name server to see what's going on, perhaps that
gives some useful information ...


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Re: Whats your way of sharing data between PCs?

Joerg Desch  writes:

> Hi.
>
> I'm using Debian Wheezy on two Notebooks and one Desktop. All systems are 
> using NFS to access a NAS. While the notebooks have all data on there 
> local SSDs, the Desktop is working directly on the NFS share.
>
> I currently use Unison to sync the data between the notebooks and the NAS. 
> This is very time consuming even with enabled "fast checking".
>
> I choose this solution because I need to take the notebooks with me. So I 
> must have the data always up to date.

NFS over VPN?


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Re: nfs mounting

"Andrew M.A. Cater"  writes:

> On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 02:48:59AM +0200, lee wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> any idea why an NFS volume is being unmounted when a VM runs out of
>> memory and kills some processes?  These processes use files on the NFS
>> volume, but that's no reason to unmount it.
>> 
>
> The OOM process killer is not necessarily aware: it will kill processes until 
> memory usage
> works again - and going OOM is, itself, a sign that something is fairly 
> drastically wrong.

The VM needs more memory which the server doesn't have.  For now, I
assigned more swap space to the VM.

The process killed was seamonkey.  Killing seamonkey frees at least 1GB.

> Suppose:
>
> There's heavy NFS usage and stuff is queueing to get on and off the mount / 
> high disk I/O

NFS usage isn't heavy.

> and the kernel hits a stuck "something" - memory usage may spike and the OOM 
> will eventually
> kill processes.

Even NFS processes, after freeing 1GB+ by killing seamonkey?

> If something is using the NFS and there are stale mounts, that prevents 
> clean unmounting ... further problems.

There's only one mount, and it isn't stale.

> Under high I/O I've occasionally seen information 
> messages where the kernel is backing off for 120s and the note that you can 
> disable further
> displays of this message by cat'ing something into proc. [Hey, it's a Sunday 
> morning and 
> I can't remember everything :)

There wasn't much I/O going on.  Seamonkey was actually idling while I
was doing something else that doesn't touch the VM seamonkey was running
in in any way.

> If a disk is being left unclean / marked as such, it won't be automatically 
> mounted,
> of course. If there's a problem with a remote mount / dead file handles that 
> will also
> clobber it.

The VM seamonkey was running in doesn't export anything via NFS.  It
only mounts a volume exported by another VM.  The export was fine or I
would have noticed on my desktop because it has the same volume mounted
the same way (/home) and would have frozen up.

>> Also annoying: The volume doesn't get mounted when booting despite it's
>> in /etc/fstab.  I have to log in into the VM and mount it manually.  The
>> entry in fstab is correct: I can just say 'mount /mountpoint' and it's
>> mounted.  Is that some Debian-specific bug?
>> 
>
> What's the entry? [Too many times, I've seen a typo or something anomalous 
> only
> once I've called a colleague in to have a look :) ]

jupiter:/srv/data_home /home nfs defaults 0 0


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Re: Replacement RAID hard drives - do they have to be "clean"?

Ken Heard  writes:

> One of my boxes has a RAID1 using two Seagate SATA 3.0 1 tb hard drives.
>  I need to replace one of them, and I would like to use as a replacement
> a Samsung SATA 2.0 1 tb drive which already has on it data which I do
> not need to keep.
>
> My first question is: although both drives are the same size, can I get
> away with having one drive a Seagate 3.0 and the other Samsung 2.0?

That depends on your RAID controller.

> It occurred to me that if I made the change described in the first
> paragraph -- but without somehow making the data already on it
> unreadable -- there would be a different data set on each drive; so that
> the RAID1 software would not necessarily know which drive should be the
> data source to copy to the other drive.  It also occurred to me that the
> software could combine the data on each drive, so that both drives would
> have both data sets.

That depends on your RAID controller.  It's probably a very good idea to
"clean" the drive before plugging it in.  "Clean" the drive would mean
to use something like dd to overwrite the whole drive with zeroes.

> I consequently assume that the data on the replacement drive must
> somehow be made unreadable.  Is that assumption correct?  If so, do the
> data have to be "shredded", or is it sufficient simply either to
> "delete" them or simply reformat the drive?

To actually delete all data on a disk beyond all recoverability, you
basically have to melt down the drive.  Modern drives usually don't
allow you to format them.

> Finally, once I have a "clean" new drive installed, will the RAID1
> copying process partition the new drive the same way as the other drive
> and copy the files without further human intervention?

That depends on your RAID controller.  At least it should rebuild the
RAID once you told it to use the disk as a replacement for the old one.


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Re: nfs mounting

marko...@eunet.rs writes:

> Maybe you have "noauto" option?

Nope.


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Re: i3 sticky/floating windows (brasero requires gvfs)

green  writes:

> lee wrote at 2014-09-20 13:34 -0500:
>> There's also i3, if you can live with a tiling WM that doesn't support
>> sticky floating windows yet.
>
> I enjoy using i3.  What is this "sticky floating windows" feature that
> I am missing?  After searching, it seems to be almost the same as i3's
> "scratchpad" feature.

A sticky floating window is a floating window which is sticky ...

i3 supports (somewhat unwillingly) floating windows, i. e. a window that
is not fixed as a tile or in a tiled manner.  Being sticky means that
this floating window is visible on all virtual desktops, i. e. when you
switch to another desktop, all sticky windows "follow" the switch and
remain visible on screen.

I forgot to mention that I also need (some of) the sticky floating
window(s) to remain on top of other windows.  "Remaining on top of other
windows" kinda clashes with the concept of a tiling WM because a tiling
WM doesn't stack windows when arranging them.  It arranges them as tiles
instead, besides each other.

One of the applications of sticky floating windows (that stay on top) is
watching a movie, like in mplayer, and switching to different desktops.
With i3, you don't have mplayer floating to begin with but as a tile
like other windows.  Switch to another desktop, and you cannot see the
tiles of the desktop you switched from anymore.  Thus you cannot watch
the movie anymore.

The scratchpad feature doesn't work for this at all.  It's designed to
move windows from the display into a virtual background where they are
invisible, with a simple way to bring them back into the foreground.
It's probably designed for windows you want to keep open, like a
calendar, and which you don't want/need to have as another tile amongst
the others because MOTT you don't use them.

With fvwm, I can have sticky floating windows that stay on top.  This
allows me to watch the movie, no matter to which desktop I switch, and
no other window will come up above the movie, so I can always watch it.

Moreover, fvwm is somewhat capable of tiling windows for me.  I have a
couple menu entries with which I can arrange 2--4 windows either
horizontally or vertically if I want to.  I rarely use that because
pretty much all my windows are full screen, and when I need it, it works
fine.

So i3 doesn't have any advantages for me --- fvwm is much more flexible
and without the utter confusion that arises when you try to arrange a
number of windows in a particular manner with i3.  It even wastes less
screen space than i3 because I don't need a status bar and no
containers.

There's a feature request as a bug report with i3, and I think they're
going to implement sticky floating windows sooner or later.

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Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian

Don Armstrong  writes:

>> What I don't understand is that criticism and other forms of speaking
>> up cannot be considered as a form of contribution.
>
> Constructive criticism is often a useful contribution. Destructive
> criticism, much less so.
>
> Disagree all you want, but don't malign others when you do so. (Or at
> least, don't do it on Debian communication infrastructure.)

I don't understand your classification of criticism, and I'm seeing that
what I have said has been (mostly) ignored yet again.  After your post I
am asking myself if I would still want to become a package manager.  The
answer is "no" because it seems as futile as anything else.

And I think I start to understand the people who say it's a waste of
time to discuss systemd.  Our freedom already has been taken away.

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Re: There is no choice

Bret Busby  writes:

> Can we please have a list established, that is purely for providing
> support for users, and, that is free of the perpetual bitching  -
> systemd this and systemd that?

Nobody prevents you from establishing such a list ...


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Re: MDADM RAID1 of external USB 3.0 Drives

"Andrew M.A. Cater"  writes:

> On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 03:51:54AM +0200, lee wrote:
>> Andrew McGlashan  writes:
>> 
>> > Whilst it is usually quite easy to find older server class hardware at
>> > bargain prices (compared to new), it is often the case that older
>> > hardware is slower and much less power efficient to newer hardware and
>> > the pricing on lots of new gear has collapsed enough to make buying new
>> > a much better option in many cases.
>> 
>> Hm, would you have an example for this?  As far as I have seen, the
>> difference in price is somewhere around EUR 6000 when you're looking at
>> 19" servers.  The difference in power efficiency is about 59W (at best)
>> vs. 180W at idle.  IIRC, the HP Microserver is rated at 30W.
>> 
> That depends very much on what you want to do / how much you need.

For the purpose of this thread, I guess that would be a storage solution
for "at home".

> Take a fairly common example of the sort of thing you have in a data centre.

Of course, you have very different requirements in a data centre.  You
probably want the best performance in the least amount of space with the
lowest power consumption possible because every tiny factor matters,
especially since it may be multiplied by hundreds or thousands.  And you
want to make sure that you actually use the processing power you have
rather than having machines (mostly) idling.

> An IBM 3550 1U server. They're up to about the fourth generation in the same 
> series.
>
> So you go from 2 Intel Xeons five years ago, with 73G SCSI disks and an old 
> RAID controlller
> to 2  x Intel Xeons today with 2 x 300G disk and a newer RAID controller - 
> but faster disks,
> higher capacity, probably Hyperthreading/2 more cores, significantly faster 
> memory bandwidth - and probably the option of better
> than 1G Ethernet connectivity for a similar sort of price point.
>
> Pick up the oldest version of the IBM 3550 and you might be talking a 15W 
> power difference
> and 20 - 30% slower than the newer kit for some tasks and the memory may not 
> be straightforward
> to find. [Nor is the newest - and in both cases, you'll probably have to buy 
> IBM branded parts]

I've been reading that Dell has their Poweredge servers down to 59W at
idle.  Apparently, they all reduced power consumption on the current
generation of their servers quite a bit.

> If you recycle your hardware on a three year cycle / rent on a three year 
> contract, that's the sort of
> improvement you'll see as the generations change.

You have the advantage that you can write your servers off and adjust
your prices to your costs.

> If you're at home and "just want a server" then it
> probably doesn't make too much of a difference. If you're running racks full 
> of kit, ti starts to matter,
> not least because you have to keep spares around for different generations.

Still you pay the electricity for your server at home --- and you can't
write off the costs.  I actually payed more to get a server with slower
CPUs than you usually find (in that generation) because it may use less
electricity.  It doesn't take too long before that pays out, and for
what I'm doing with it, I don't need the most performance I could get.
If I do some time, I could buy the same model with the fastest CPUs they
put into these cheaply and replace the CPUs ...  If a PSU fails, I might
just buy another server anyway and have a full set of spare parts.  It
won't cost much more than the PSU alone.

> Likewise, the four year old desktop machine I've given away was £699 when 
> bought by my father and is worth nothing now.
> For £150, I can now buy a faster better desktop machine than I can build, 
> given that my time probably costs > £20
> an hour and I have all the problems of matching components etc. 

Well, I can't buy anything better than I can build myself.

> I can buy a last generation HP microserver with 
> 4GB of memory for £149 brand new or the latest greatest for about £800 fully 
> kitted out, run it for three years 
> and write it off.

For a server at home?  If you run it only three years, why would you
spend 800 instead of 149?

> My daughter's machine was one of the £150 quad core machines. Add a graphics 
> card for £50, an SSD for £100 and
> it's close to the spec of the £800 "top end family desktop" machines.

That depends on what you want to do with it.  Play some games and you
need a decent graphics card which costs more than 150, depending on what
games you play.  Compile sources and you want more than only 4 cores.

> Two years on, and the base machine is now an 8 core, with double the basic 
> hard disk at the same power consumption ...

You don't re-use the disks?  Double disk capacity would mean 14TB (plus
double of what's in the server).  I doubt that you get that for 150 or
so in two years.  You might get a 6TB disk for that in two years.

>> Of course, don't buy too old, that's not worthwhile for many reasons.
>> 
>
> Unless you go round picking up non-worki

Re: excessive CPU usage

2014-09-21 Thread Karl E. Jorgensen

Hi

On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 11:54:01AM -0700, Gary Roach wrote:
> Hi all
> 
> For the last few months I have been plagued by very slow response
> from my system. As an example, it takes 2 1/2 minutes to drag and
> drop 80 files from my email inbox to the trash bin in icedove. It
> has taken as high as 5 minutes for iceweasel to load. This problem
> is not just these packages but also applies to all of the rest of my
> programs.
> 
> I am using Debian Wheezy with a i5750 4 core processor on a fast
> Intel board. I run a kde desktop. All the software is up to date.
> 
> I have checked all of the log files and can't find any anomalies.
> Rebooting doesn't help.
> 
> Using the KDE System Monitor (ksysguard) I have noticed that at
> least one of the processors goes to 100% and stays there for long
> periods even though there is no noticeable activity in the process
> tables. The only other thing I have noticed (the printing just hung
> up while I am writing this) is that the hard drive indicator comes
> on and stays on during the processor activity. I ran some checks on
> the hard drive but found no indication of any hard drive problems.

First step is probably to collect more data to find out whether the
bottleneck is cpu, memory, io or network (although we can probably
eliminate network here).

Try running e.g. "vmstat 10" (its in the "procps" package which you
probably have installed anyway) - this will emit a line every 10
seconds with interesting system information. (As a rule of thumb:
ignore the first sample). Analyzing this can be a bit of a dark art -
it requires a decent understanding of how the kernel works, but not
too bad.  Lots of people on this list should be able to help if they
have that output.

It's also worth having a glance in /var/log/kern.log (usually where
syslog puts the kernel messages) for anything amiss: Misbehaving
hardware can really mess things up.

Hope this helps
-- 
Karl E. Jorgensen

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Re: Random

2014-09-21 Thread David Baron

On Sunday 21 September 2014 20:24:08 Martin Read wrote:
> On 21/09/14 20:14, David Baron wrote:
> > On my 64 bit Sid box, seems that certain applications/games come up the
> > same every execution. Would normally expect a random pattern.
> > 
> > This is not all of them but many.. Which random generators should be
> > installed, now seeded/configures?
> 
> Application software usually initializes its internal pseudorandom
> number generator using inputs like the current system time. Since you
> haven't mentioned any of the affected programs by name, it's difficult
> to comment on what might be going wrong.

One example Bubbleshooter.swf (flash game). Always starts with same pattern and 
starting balls. Game play progression depends upon player's aim, of course.


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Re: OT: Pepper Flash Crashes Everywhere

2014-09-21 Thread Sven Hartge

Paul van der Vlis  wrote:
> op 21-09-14 13:40, Sven Hartge schreef:

>> You cannot install it in a way t run it side by side. By installing
>> the libc6 package from Jessie it will overwrite the one from Wheezy.
>> This is how the package manager works.

> Correct, but...

>> This late in the release cycle, upgrading the libc6 package will pull
>> many more packages from Jessie into your Wheezy installation,
>> transforming it into a mix of Wheezy and Jessie with a greater
>> possibility of having strange bugs.

> It's possible to install them on a place where it is not found as
> library (e.g. in a chroot, or by unpacking in /opt/ ), and then use
> LD_LIBRARY_PATH while starting the program what needs the newer glibc.

Of course. But this is way beyond the abilities and scope of a normal
user, who will damage their system if they blindly follow an HOWTO which
just describes adding testing/jessie to their sources.list, maybe
pinning it down and then installing the new libc6 from testing/jessie
without warning about possible problems this may cause and how to revert
to a known-good state if anything went wrong.

Grüße,
Sven.

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.


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Re: Random


On 21/09/14 20:14, David Baron wrote:

On my 64 bit Sid box, seems that certain applications/games come up the same
every execution. Would normally expect a random pattern.

This is not all of them but many.. Which random generators should be
installed, now seeded/configures?


Application software usually initializes its internal pseudorandom 
number generator using inputs like the current system time. Since you 
haven't mentioned any of the affected programs by name, it's difficult 
to comment on what might be going wrong.



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Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?

On Sun 21 Sep 2014 at 10:48:51 -0400, Rob Owens wrote:

> Looking for advice from people in the know...
> 
> I submitted a general bug regarding packages which require changing your
> init system to systemd.  I pointed out that this runs counter to
> Debian's goals of supporting multiple init systems.  The bug was closed
> without fixing in a matter of hours.

The title of the bug is "Some packages depend on a particular init
system". Titles can be difficult to frame, so we won't hold you to it,
and it can be altered later to reflect better the nature of the report.
Anyway, the title doesn't look bad to me.

In the body of the mail you set out your stall with

  This bug applies to many desktop applications, and runs counter to Debian's
  goals of supporting multiple init systems.  I classified this bug as
  normal, but I think consideration should be given to classifying it as
  serious.

and

  So installing a cd-burning application triggers a change of my init system.

At this stage one would question on why the bug reporter seems to be
unaware of

  apt-get install sysvinit-core systemd-shim

when it has been advised many times as a practical measure to avoid the
situation outlined. Issuing the command means that installing a
cd-burning application does not trigger a change of the init system. So
that is the claim that it "runs counter to Debian's goals of supporting
multiple init systems" disposed of.

But, hold on, he does know about systemd-shim!

  I know about systemd-shim, and I'll talk about that in a minute.

and then goes on to venture the opinion (framed as a rhetorical
question)

  But is systemd-shim really the solution we need to the problem above?

So, at this stage we have a user who know how to solve his problem but
wants to explore a different, completely unspecified course of action
for unspecified reasons and in an unspecified way. The bug report has
fallen apart; it is only heading into the realms of speculation. No
sensible maintainer or triager is going to follow that route. wontfix or
close?, that is the question. I'd go for close because there is nothing
to fix.

> Perhaps I didn't explain the bug well enough, or maybe I should have
> submitted it elsewhere.  I am hoping to get advice on what to do next,
> or constructive criticism showing me where I went wrong.

What to do next (possibly):

1. Accept the decision; graciously or ungraciously.

2. Read #746578 and #762194.

3. Reopen #762116 and merge it with #746578.

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Re: Booting Debian GNU/kFreeBSD on MacBookPro 8.2

2014-09-21 Thread Lars Noodén


On 09/21/2014 09:05 PM, Andrew Winnenberg wrote:

On Sunday, September 21, 2014 05:43:40 AM Lars Noodén wrote:

I've installed Debian GNU/kFreeBSD 7.6 (wheezy) from a mini.iso CD

image

on a MacBookPro 8.2.  The installation seemed to go smoothly, including
installing Grub, but when it is time to boot, the machine only ever
shows a blinking folder with a question mark, indicating no system.  The
system can be booted from the installation CD via the choice to boot
from first hard disk, so that part of the installation worked.

What additional step is needed so that the system boots on its own from
the internal drive without intervention from the installation CD?

Regards,
/Lars


It sounds like the install went okay, but the mac is unsure what device to
boot from. Try holding down the left 'option' key during boot and see if you
can select your hard disk from the list that appears.

Andrew


That was one of the first things I did try.  There might be some problem 
related to EFI or UEFI and it needing a special /boot partition.  But 
that is a new area for me.


Regards,
/Lars


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Random

2014-09-21 Thread David Baron

On my 64 bit Sid box, seems that certain applications/games come up the same 
every execution. Would normally expect a random pattern.

This is not all of them but many.. Which random generators should be 
installed, now seeded/configures?


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Re: OT: Pepper Flash Crashes Everywhere

2014-09-21 Thread Paul van der Vlis

op 21-09-14 13:40, Sven Hartge schreef:
> Patrick Bartek  wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Sep 2014, Sven Hartge wrote:
>>> Patrick Bartek  wrote:
> 
 For all the good it will do.  Google isn't going to change it.  If
 they were, they would have done so already. Solution?  Downgrade or
 install GLIBC from Testing to run side-by-side with Wheezy's 2.13.
>  
>>> Installing glibc from testing will not work the way you think it
>>> will.  It will however have great potential to wreck your Wheezy
>>> installation.
> 
>> Some reading I've done says it's possible and won't wreck the system.
>> Although, I intend to test in a VM first.
> 
> You cannot install it in a way t run it side by side. By installing the
> libc6 package from Jessie it will overwrite the one from Wheezy. This is
> how the package manager works.

Correct, but...

> This late in the release cycle, upgrading the libc6 package will pull
> many more packages from Jessie into your Wheezy installation,
> transforming it into a mix of Wheezy and Jessie with a greater
> possibility of having strange bugs.

It's possible to install them on a place where it is not found as
library (e.g. in a chroot, or by unpacking in /opt/ ), and then use
LD_LIBRARY_PATH while starting the program what needs the newer glibc.

It's a pity that Debian does not offer a standarized way to use more
then one glibc. It's important, some backports need a newer glibc.
And some closed source software, e.g. games.

With regards,
Paul van der Vlis.





-- 
Paul van der Vlis Linux systeembeheer, Groningen
http://www.vandervlis.nl


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Re: excessive CPU usage

2014-09-21 Thread Gary Dale

Could be virtuoso or nepomuk. I had similar problems from time to time 
that were traced to one of those two programs.



On 21/09/14 02:54 PM, Gary Roach wrote:

Hi all

For the last few months I have been plagued by very slow response from 
my system. As an example, it takes 2 1/2 minutes to drag and drop 80 
files from my email inbox to the trash bin in icedove. It has taken as 
high as 5 minutes for iceweasel to load. This problem is not just 
these packages but also applies to all of the rest of my programs.


I am using Debian Wheezy with a i5750 4 core processor on a fast Intel 
board. I run a kde desktop. All the software is up to date.


I have checked all of the log files and can't find any anomalies. 
Rebooting doesn't help.


Using the KDE System Monitor (ksysguard) I have noticed that at least 
one of the processors goes to 100% and stays there for long periods 
even though there is no noticeable activity in the process tables. The 
only other thing I have noticed (the printing just hung up while I am 
writing this) is that the hard drive indicator comes on and stays on 
during the processor activity. I ran some checks on the hard drive but 
found no indication of any hard drive problems.


Has anyone else had a similar problem or have any idea what is going on.

Thanks in advance

Gary R.





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Re: crm_gui

2014-09-21 Thread Rahul Patil



Can anyone guide me how to make Pacemaker-mgmt gui work ?




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Re: excessive CPU usage

2014-09-21 Thread Reco

 Hi.

On Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:54:01 -0700
Gary Roach  wrote:

> Has anyone else had a similar problem or have any idea what is going on.

apt-get install iotop.
Run iotop as root once you experience a slowdown.
The process on top of the list is the one which's causing all this mess
on your PC (most probably, as there may be several of them).

Reco


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Unable to login with skype (was Re: Faking it with skype)

2014-09-21 Thread Joel Roth

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 09:51:25PM -1000, Joel Roth wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 09:04:41AM +0200, Hans wrote:
> > 
> > > I had already tried one method of doing that - using  the suggested
> > > method which involved using sed - which was offered as an alternative
> > > to using a hexeditor (which option scared me), and the option using
> > > sed, did not work, and I had posted the errors that arose from tring
> > > to use the sed method.
> > 
> > Using a hexeditor is just as easy as using any text editor. Did you try it 
> > at 
> > all?
> 
> I successfully edited mine with vim :-) 

Now on login (after a forced logout initiated by the Skype
host) the client give me the "Skype can't connect" message.

skype -v
Skype 4.3.0.37

I'm running sid.

Anyone able to log in?

Joel
 
> > Hans
> > 
> > 
> -- 
> Joel Roth
>   
> 
> 
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-- 
Joel Roth
  


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Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?

2014-09-21 Thread The Wanderer

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 09/21/2014 at 01:37 PM, John Hasler wrote:

> The Wanderer writes:
> 
>> Filing bugs about that against the packages which depend on that 
>> functionality, as advised in the mail closing the bug which this 
>> thread is about, is not productive; they don't control what 
>> provides the functionality they need.
> 
> What did those packages do for that functionality before systemd 
> existed?

According to my understanding, either they depended on policykit (which
used to provide such, or at least related, functionality, and which is
now unsupported and may be unsuitable for other reasons as well), or
they didn't yet include the features which that functionality enables.

I had a few drafts of a possibly extended rant on the latter point,
explaining why there's nothing wrong with a program adding features to
take advantage of external functionality. It was getting incoherent and
reiterating points from my previous mail, however, so I decided to
omit it.

- -- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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excessive CPU usage

2014-09-21 Thread Gary Roach


Hi all

For the last few months I have been plagued by very slow response from 
my system. As an example, it takes 2 1/2 minutes to drag and drop 80 
files from my email inbox to the trash bin in icedove. It has taken as 
high as 5 minutes for iceweasel to load. This problem is not just these 
packages but also applies to all of the rest of my programs.


I am using Debian Wheezy with a i5750 4 core processor on a fast Intel 
board. I run a kde desktop. All the software is up to date.


I have checked all of the log files and can't find any anomalies. 
Rebooting doesn't help.


Using the KDE System Monitor (ksysguard) I have noticed that at least 
one of the processors goes to 100% and stays there for long periods even 
though there is no noticeable activity in the process tables. The only 
other thing I have noticed (the printing just hung up while I am writing 
this) is that the hard drive indicator comes on and stays on during the 
processor activity. I ran some checks on the hard drive but found no 
indication of any hard drive problems.


Has anyone else had a similar problem or have any idea what is going on.

Thanks in advance

Gary R.


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Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian

2014-09-21 Thread Joel Roth

On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 10:12:51PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> > Then please explain to us why, with all of the negative technical
> > aspects surrounding systemd, it looks to be the default init in
> > Jessie.
> 
> You can start by reading why I voted for systemd:
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708#3661

When I read through most of these postings, I find two 
types of responses: technical and political.

Technical responses deal with the minutae of the advantages
and disadvantages of adopting systemd. 

Political responses are concerned with the behavior of the
systemd developers, and the advisability, by adopting
systemd, of giving this group power over every Debian
user's operating system.

Posts expressing concern about losing political control of
Debian to paid-for software developers, Russ Alberry derides
as subscribing to the "Red Hat conspiracy theory" which he
labels as "toxic."

To me that expresses the root of the controversy.

The technical committee gets its name for a role
in resolving technical issues. However a decision to adopt
systemd (or not) has a political dimension as well.

As the Debian community, are we to repose our trust in any
group who offers modest technical accomplishments?
Especially when the developers have shown attitudes and
behaviors incompatible with the core values of our
community?  Especially where the beneficiaries are
developers of desktop environments and represent only a tiny
fraction of the user base?  Especially when the technical
approach goes against the principles of decades of
development.

In unhealthy personal relationships there are signs that things
are going badly. Here we have plenty of evidence from
the systemd developers' behavior to raise questions.

Many of us see it as a bare-faced power grab. That is 
a political conclusion and political language.
I think it's incorrect to pigeonhole and reject such
considerations as toxic.

We have a specific term for software that is invited
for one purpose and accomplishes another: a Trojan Horse.

It may be appropriate to apply this term to systemd: a
large, opaque system that must be swallowed whole, under the
control of an unaccountable group with questionable motives.

In a healthy community I would expect movers and shakers to
at least acknowledge the legitimate concerns of the user
base.

Respectfully,

Joel Roth
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Re: There is no choice

2014-09-21 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 11:31:57AM -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> 
> Obviously it is important enough to enough users that it continues here.
>  And shutting people up is not going to make the problem go away.  It
> will, however, make users go away.  I, for one, am looking at other
> systems now.  And I think it is highly likely this path will force
> another fork of Debian, as occurred when Ubuntu forked.
> 

Ubuntu started as a friendly fork: as someone said at the time "If we
could have got away with calling it Debian for desktops, we would have
done" - notably, they still pull from Debian and build on it.

Using systemd requires work and testing: not using systemd requires
work, testing and forking your oun distribution in the teeth of almost
every distribution, desktop environment and active development stream.

That may not be pleasant - but it's about the size of it. For me, I don't
care about desktops on most of my systems: I have been using systemd on
a couple of machines and working well for me at the moment: if I were building
systems with KDE and GNOME for others, I'd be bound to use systemd.

Moving further out in the ecosystem - if my work uses Red Hat and systemd,
then persuading folk to try Debian on the same hardware with the same commands
they are already using won't be as hard. Red Hat 7 is using systemd - all the 
Red Hat courses have already switched.

Jessie freezes no later than November 5th 2014. Allow folk who are trying to 
work on the distribution to work on it and not to have to intervene in this
sort of discussion, please.

> 
> Only a few supporters of systemd call it shite and bitching, and try to
> shut off the subject.  Others look at the real issues involved.
> 
> I haven't said much until now, but I have followed the subject in depth
> the whole time.  And I, for one, am very happy this was brought to my
> attention.  It has allowed me to make an intelligent decision as to
> whether to upgrade or go to another distro.
> 
> 
> > I realise that the objective of the Debian Project, is tied up in the
> > word "free", and, thence, mailing lists free of moderation, but the
> > way that the bitching on this list, has been going, it is
> > encouragement for the public to avoid Debian and all that it entails,
> > and, I believe that the bitching about the conduct of the Debian
> > developers, warrants moderation, so that the list can become useful,
> > and, can dulfill the objective iof providing assistance to users,
> > instead of being designed to drive users away.
> > 
> > 
> 
> Censoring a conversation has never solved a problem or made it go away.
>  It will not do so here, either.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
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Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian

2014-09-21 Thread Joel Rees

2014/09/21 14:13 "Don Armstrong" :
>
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> > Then please explain to us why, with all of the negative technical
> > aspects surrounding systemd, it looks to be the default init in
> > Jessie.
>
> You can start by reading why I voted for systemd:
>https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708#3661

Okay, Don, I read your reasons in post #3661. I didn't read the whole
thread, but I did read a few others. what I read was unsettling
enough. Your comments below are equally unsettling.

Let me ask you:

What problem were you trying to solve when you decided there had to be a switch?

-- you, as an individual, and you, the community of developers?

> You would also do well to read the statements by the other committee
> members.
>
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Bob Proulx wrote:
> > For one by closing bugs without fixing them. As users we are always
> > admonished to file bugs. But whether those bugs will be acknowledge
> > and handled appropriately depends upon the project. My experience is
> > that if it is systemd that the bug will not be handled nicely.
>
> This is because of a combination of not enough volunteers to handle the
> bugs, and the bludgeoning

I do hope you meant burgeoning there. ;-/

(Although, frankly, what has been happening has felt a bit like the
use of blunt instruments at times. Perhaps on both sides of the
debate, but you have to understand that the user pushback is exactly
that, pushback.)

> of people working on systemd in general as
> evidenced on this very mailing list. Package maintainers are only human,
> after all.

So are the users, and we are your final Q/A. Those of us who
understand the tech walk away and your Q/A suffers seriously.

> > Eventually Ben Hutchings got involved, reopened the bug, and objected
> > to the kernel maintainers choices being overridden. And therefore it
> > was eventually fixed. But if he had not gotten involved I am sure it
> > would not have been fixed since it had not been in spite of multiple
> > reports.
>
> Yes, that bug could have been handled better. It was eventually resolved
> thanks in no small part to the willingness of Ben Hutchings to bring
> forward the precise technical issues with the overriding of the default
> kernel sysrq mask by systemd. That's the sort of healthy communication
> between a user of systemd (Ben) and the maintainers of systemd in
> Debian that we all would do well to emulate. [Even though Ben is a
> Debian Developer, he has no special powers regarding this particular bug
> than anyone reading this has.]

Why was that communication allowed to break down in the first place?

> On Sun, 21 Sep 2014, lee wrote:
> > [Stuff that I am not prepared to talk about, as I have not been able to 
> > break open the time in my schedule to help out. I want to, but my current 
> > situation does not alow it.]
> >
> > What I don't understand is that criticism and other forms of speaking
> > up cannot be considered as a form of contribution.
>
> Constructive criticism is often a useful contribution. Destructive
> criticism, much less so.

Do you know how oil well fires are put out?

Sometimes the first step to constructive is rather destructive.

> Disagree all you want, but don't malign others when you do so. (Or at
> least, don't do it on Debian communication infrastructure.)

I'd usually agree, but for what I find so unsettling about the
conversation I've seen so far.

> --
> Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com
>
> G: If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?
> EB: Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and
> scatter oneself over a wide area.
>  -- Somewhere in No Man's Land, BA4

You guys want technical analysis of systemd, along with dbus, cgroups,
whatever the log daemon was called, and several other so-called
"technologies" that have come together to produce this situation?

The following is by no means complete:

(1) Simplicity in art is simplicity in art.

Simplicity in engineering is the difference between literally fatal
errors and graceful failure modes. That goes across the board.

(2) When I was a college student, when we talked about modularity, we
talked about something called "implicit linkage". I don't know what
the current term for it is, but it is the generalized problem of
global constants, variables, protocols, and design patterns,
especially those which are never formally declared.

It's hard to set an absolute measure of implicit linkage, but we do
know that the more you declare globally, the less you can be sure that
what you declare locally will behave as you declared it.

In other words, the old adage that "A computer only does what you tell
it to." no longer applies when implicit linkage is high.

(3) Design itself (what is often wrongly referred to as "ABI" or such)
is one of those global declarations, and when the design is unstable,
nothing in the system can be stable.

There are at least two classes of i

Re: There is no choice

2014-09-21 Thread Ста Деюс

Доброго времени суток, Miles.


Спасибо за ответ, Sun, 21 Sep 2014 13:23:57 -0400 вы писали:
> >> I haven't said much until now, but I have followed the subject in
> >> depth the whole time.  And I, for one, am very happy this was
> >> brought to my attention.  It has allowed me to make an intelligent
> >> decision as to whether to upgrade or go to another distro.  
> > I'm going to (re)try Gentoo next weekend, and Funtoo the weekend
> > after that. I had originally written off Gentoo as way too much of
> > a hassle, but a read part way through
> > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708 has made me
> > willing to accept a much higher hassle level to continue using a
> > modular, sane and POSIX operating system.  
> 
> I'm seriously thinking either Slackware or Linux-From-Scratch (which 
> moved from systemd-udev to eudev recently).  Or SmarOS - which is 
> starting to look awfully sweet.

I will repeat my opinion: you will benefit from going to another
distro so long, as the US/Euro fashists come not to those distros.

So to conqueror their spyware (the so called «systemd») is by choosing
a country that would protect you or software (the free). – This is a
general war, not particular one. – For whole planet, not a single
country. – Capitalism against human. So...


С уважением,
Ста.


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Re: Booting Debian GNU/kFreeBSD on MacBookPro 8.2

2014-09-21 Thread Andrew Winnenberg

On Sunday, September 21, 2014 05:43:40 AM Lars Noodén wrote:
> I've installed Debian GNU/kFreeBSD 7.6 (wheezy) from a mini.iso CD 
image
> on a MacBookPro 8.2.  The installation seemed to go smoothly, including
> installing Grub, but when it is time to boot, the machine only ever
> shows a blinking folder with a question mark, indicating no system.  The
> system can be booted from the installation CD via the choice to boot
> from first hard disk, so that part of the installation worked.
> 
> What additional step is needed so that the system boots on its own from
> the internal drive without intervention from the installation CD?
> 
> Regards,
> /Lars

It sounds like the install went okay, but the mac is unsure what device to 
boot from. Try holding down the left 'option' key during boot and see if you 
can select your hard disk from the list that appears.

Andrew

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Any stats for quantifying Debian's maintenance magnitude?

2014-09-21 Thread Cindy-Sue Causey

Disclaimer: I tried to jump back into the fray last night. Ended up
with two epic long chapters now sitting in draft. It was just too
much..

Up this morning and now seeing all kinds of "that topic" related
activity again today. Mixed in among those threads was something that
comes out about this time each week from the PHP folks
(php...@lists.php.net). It's their mental "toggle" to remind people to
check in and help, but that's not my primary point here. Today's
output for them is referencing *24309* cumulative user notes
potentially needing some kind of TLC _this week_.

Twenty-four THOUSAND plus.. THAT is just document notes, and that is
ONE project, albeit one of the larger ones around. And that's not any
other activity that developers are doing on that project in the same
way Debian developers work on so many different aspects here..

An immediate Debian example that *delightfully* stuns me every time it
happens is regarding "apt-get update". I've had "apt-get update" get
disconnected for whatever reason so have had to run it right away
again to complete it. Invariably there are even more new updates
within the sometimes only five, ten minutes lapse time in between
update attempts..

Seeing those in the context of being a seeming final process
checkmark, I've been a-suming that the visually apparent minute by
minute constant change represents developers hard at work all OVER the
place ALL the time..

That all said, does Debian generate any kind of statistical
information related to developer activity?

Yes, I know you can't quantify the cognitive work involved.. I'm just
thinking about the aspects of it that can be quantified because
they're being registered in a server somewhere for posterity.. My
thought process is that it might help put some perspective somehow, I
don't know quite how, but just SOME kind of perspective on what
developers face over time...

Some of that thought process includes things like... I've noticed
people's command outputs that share an eye catching 30 packages that
still need upgraded in their systems. It would be easy for someone
with that low count to say, "What?! Only 30?! What are developers
doing with the REST of their time?!"

Meanwhile k/t the hodgepodge I've got going here, I've been fortunate
to see numbers in the thousands, not to mention regular references to
that there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of possibilities for things out
there...

IN FACT... just ran "apt-cache search the" and received back a 2.4MB
sized file containing 37,601 lines. I just quickly scanned the output.
Everything I saw showed one single line per package name. I've never
had a problem with apt-cache duplicating output so I'm trusting it
didn't this time, either. Does that 37,601 sound possible as the
number of available packages containing the word "the" that users can
download today? Yes, no, maybe so?

Quantitatively multiply out those tens of thousands of packages times
how many seconds, how many minutes per each that general maintenance
takes, let alone any other developer driven [function] that might be
performed on them...

Oh, wait NOT done yet... Each package does NOT contain only one
single solitary standalone file, either.. Each package's files needs
its due head nod within that quantifying process, too..

37,601 lines, each appearing to represent a unique software package
that theoretically should receive regular developer tending.

*hm* :)

Cindy

--
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* Fencesitter Extraordinaire *

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Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian

2014-09-21 Thread Reco

 Hi.

On Sun, 21 Sep 2014 18:47:46 +0200
Slavko  wrote:

> > > Try to help by providing translations, and you'll find it's
> > > impossible because there's nowhere and no one to offer such service.
> > 
> > Debian's website, installer, and many parts of the software that
> > Debian provides are all translated. See
> > https://www.debian.org/international/l10n/ for example.
> 
> Are you expecting, that these translator will need to be programmers
> too, please? Consider you this as the same contributing as the
> developers and maintainers are doing?

If I understand correctly, you're asking whenever translators are as
important as DDs to the Debian Project?

[1] seems to imply they do, moreover, translators aren't the only kind
of people who lack coding skill that can help Debian Project.

In the light of the current discussion, this seems particulary fitting:

Social human behaviour experts

The objectives are:

Helping to solve flamewars. Debian is attempting to create a 'social
committee' to address interproject personal conflicts. If you have
experience in mediation or have suggestions for a conflict-resolution
process, please email the debian-project mailing list or the Debian
project leader ( lea...@debian.org ) for more private issues.

[1] https://wiki.debian.org/DebianForNonCoderContributors

Reco

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Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?

The Wanderer writes:
> Filing bugs about that against the packages which depend on that
> functionality, as advised in the mail closing the bug which this
> thread is about, is not productive; they don't control what provides
> the functionality they need.

What did those packages do for that functionality before systemd
existed?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: Systemd, systemd, and more systemd ...

On Sun 21 Sep 2014 at 12:16:44 -0400, David L. Craig wrote:

> On 14Sep21:1618+0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Sun 21 Sep 2014 at 09:47:32 -0400, David L. Craig wrote:
> > 
> > You didn't accept an upgrade to the new default init system. But you
> > accepted the new sysvinit package.
> 
> Yes, after systemd broke the system as described in
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=762146
> since I'm trying to be a good Sid user and test new
> defaults, backing them out when necessary to get the
> platform functioning again.

Apart from using a Beta 1 D-I i386 netinst and installing to a real
machine I did the same as you a couple of days ago. No problems
upgrading to unstable. Far be it for me to suggest any bugs in qemu
or kvm, but we do have quite a difference in our experience.


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Re: OT: Pepper Flash Crashes Everywhere

2014-09-21 Thread Patrick Bartek

On Sun, 21 Sep 2014, Sven Hartge wrote:

> Patrick Bartek  wrote:
> > On Sun, 21 Sep 2014, Sven Hartge wrote:
> >> Patrick Bartek  wrote:
> 
> >>> For all the good it will do.  Google isn't going to change it.  If
> >>> they were, they would have done so already. Solution?  Downgrade
> >>> or install GLIBC from Testing to run side-by-side with Wheezy's
> >>> 2.13.
>  
> >> Installing glibc from testing will not work the way you think it
> >> will.  It will however have great potential to wreck your Wheezy
> >> installation.
> 
> > Some reading I've done says it's possible and won't wreck the
> > system. Although, I intend to test in a VM first.
> 
> You cannot install it in a way t run it side by side. By installing
> the libc6 package from Jessie it will overwrite the one from Wheezy.
> This is how the package manager works.

There is a way to safely run a "mixed" system.  The Apt docs mention
how to do it.  At this point, I don't know fully what's involved to do
so.

I found instructions from one person who didn't "install" the GLIBC,
but got the binary files in tar format, copied the library to a folder
in his home directory, and used a symbolic link to it, so the app that
needed it could find it. Said it worked.  And he's had no problems.

> This late in the release cycle, upgrading the libc6 package will pull
> many more packages from Jessie into your Wheezy installation,
> transforming it into a mix of Wheezy and Jessie with a greater
> possibility of having strange bugs.

My intention as others who've only needed GLIBC 2.14 (or greater) in
Wheezy is to install/copy/whatever only that library nothing else.

> >> As said in Comment 36 to issue 410805, Adobe is working an solving
> >> the problem. We have to just wait.
> 
> > Adobe?  I thought they'd abandoned Linux.
> 
> Yes, but the Issue clearly states that Adobe does the Linux-Build of
> libpepflashplayer.so and Comment 36 is made by an Adobe employee.

Never completely read that advisory.

Probably by the time I'm ready to put >=2.14 on my system, the problem
will have been rectified. ;-)

Thanks for your insight.

B

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Re: sound recording

2014-09-21 Thread Ста Деюс

Доброго времени суток, Doug.


Спасибо за ответ, Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:32:38 -0400 вы писали:
> > I use debian jessie and sound recording in audacity or skype does
> > not work.
> > 
> > Microphone as a device is operative. Audacity does not show
> > fluctuacion when recording is enable. I use alsamixer command to
> > adjust capture slider. What I should do?
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > PCH  
> 
> Don't feel bad. I've had Audacity on one or another computer, 
> windows and Linux, for years, and I never ever could get it to
> record anything, or even get the spectrum display to bobble up 
> and down. I even have a big notebook downloaded about Audacity.
> To me it's useless. Use Windows and buy a recording program.

Same here. But before buying anything - that is not good in general, i
would suggest using arecord util or others. For example:

arecord -d 10 -f cd -t wav 1.wav


С уважением,
Ста.


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Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?


On 21/09/14 15:48, Rob Owens wrote:

The bug:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=762116


I think I agree with John Hasler in:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/09/msg01430.html

that much of this is a matter of Debian package dependencies reflecting 
dependencies of the upstream design, and that filing bugs against Debian 
(either the "general" pseudo-package, or specific individual packages) 
is unlikely to be the most effective approach.


As far as the Debian-related aspects of the matter are concerned, it 
seems to me that it would not be unreasonable to file bugs against 
sysvinit-core and upstart suggesting that they should have a Recommends: 
reference to systemd-shim.



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Re: There is no choice

2014-09-21 Thread Miles Fidelman


Steve Litt wrote:

On Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:31:57 -0400
Jerry Stuckle  wrote:


I haven't said much until now, but I have followed the subject in
depth the whole time.  And I, for one, am very happy this was brought
to my attention.  It has allowed me to make an intelligent decision
as to whether to upgrade or go to another distro.

I'm going to (re)try Gentoo next weekend, and Funtoo the weekend after
that. I had originally written off Gentoo as way too much of a hassle,
but a read part way through
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708 has made me
willing to accept a much higher hassle level to continue using a
modular, sane and POSIX operating system.


I'm seriously thinking either Slackware or Linux-From-Scratch (which 
moved from systemd-udev to eudev recently).  Or SmarOS - which is 
starting to look awfully sweet.


Miles Fidelman




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Re: SFTP chroot and FileZilla question

2014-09-21 Thread Sven Hoexter

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 10:33:16AM -0400, David Parker wrote:

Hi,

> However, if I connect using FileZilla, I see that I am in /home and I can
> freely navigate the rest of the filesystem.  What's up with that?  I would
> really like for this user account to be jailed regardless of the client,
> and it seems to me like it should be, since this is a server-side
> configuration.

I usually start up a sshd in debug mode on a different port with
otherwise the same configuration. That usually gives you a hint
why the matching does not work.

Sven


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Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian

2014-09-21 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Du, 21 sep 14, 18:47:46, Slavko wrote:
> Dňa Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:12:51 -0700 Don Armstrong 
> napísal:
> > 
> > Debian's website, installer, and many parts of the software that
> > Debian provides are all translated. See
> > https://www.debian.org/international/l10n/ for example.
> 
> Are you expecting, that these translator will need to be programmers
> too, please? Consider you this as the same contributing as the
> developers and maintainers are doing?

Could you please rephrase this? I have no idea what you mean with this.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?

2014-09-21 Thread The Wanderer

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On 09/21/2014 at 12:12 PM, John Hasler wrote:

> Rob Owens writes:
> 
>> I submitted a general bug regarding packages which require 
>> changing your init system to systemd.  I pointed out that this
>> runs counter to Debian's goals of supporting multiple init
>> systems.
> 
> No, it doesn't.  Any individual package can depend on any other 
> package. Unfortunately, many upstreams are writing their code in
> such a way as to require that when their software is packaged for
> Debian the resulting package must depend on systemd features.

How does this contradict the idea that having packages which require the
use of a particular init system runs counter to the goal of supporting
multiple init systems?

The problem is specifically that the features which these upstreams want
to depend on are provided by an init system. That should be rejected out
of hand; any functionality which a separate project might legitimately
want to depend on should not be provided (primarily or exclusively) by
an init system, unless all init systems will necessarily provide that
functionality.

Filing bugs about that against the packages which depend on that
functionality, as advised in the mail closing the bug which this thread
is about, is not productive; they don't control what provides the
functionality they need.

Filing bugs about it against systemd - either in Debian or upstream -
would be getting closer to the root of the problem, but would also not
be productive; providing these features in the init system is an
intentional design choice of systemd. It is also exactly what should be
changed, but good luck getting anyone in the systemd project to agree to
the idea of changing it.

> The only solutions for this are to either convince upstream
> authors to change their ways or to make other init systems able to
> emulate systemd to the extent necessary.
> 
> If you can find packages that gratuitously depend on systemd file 
> specific bugs against those packages.  When the systemd dependency 
> is deeply embedded in the upstream source, though, there is
> nothing the package maintainer can do about it.

Just because there's nothing the (depending) package maintainer can do
about it doesn't mean there isn't a bug, though.

As I've argued before, the bug lies in the design stage, specifically in
the decision to implement certain functionality in systemd rather than
outside of it.

The resulting behavior, in terms of packages which are not related to a
particular init system but which will only work with that init system
present, is undesirable and unnecessary - which seems like a decent
enough mapping to "buggy", at least to me.

Saying "Yes, it's a problem, but there's nothing we can do about it"
would be one thing (although there *is* something which could be done
about it, in terms of pushing back on systemd upstream). But saying
"This isn't a bug" is very much another.

- -- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian

2014-09-21 Thread Slavko

Ahoj,

Dňa Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:12:51 -0700 Don Armstrong 
napísal:

> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> > Then please explain to us why, with all of the negative technical
> > aspects surrounding systemd, it looks to be the default init in
> > Jessie.
> 
> You can start by reading why I voted for systemd:
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708#3661
> 
> You would also do well to read the statements by the other committee
> members.
> 
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Bob Proulx wrote:
> > For one by closing bugs without fixing them. As users we are always
> > admonished to file bugs. But whether those bugs will be acknowledge
> > and handled appropriately depends upon the project. My experience is
> > that if it is systemd that the bug will not be handled nicely.
> 
> This is because of a combination of not enough volunteers to handle
> the bugs, and the bludgeoning of people working on systemd in general
> as evidenced on this very mailing list. Package maintainers are only
> human, after all.

When will the systemd end to force users to use it without any other
choice, a lot of people can ignore it (systemd).

> On Sun, 21 Sep 2014, lee wrote:
> > Try to help by providing translations, and you'll find it's
> > impossible because there's nowhere and no one to offer such service.
> 
> Debian's website, installer, and many parts of the software that
> Debian provides are all translated. See
> https://www.debian.org/international/l10n/ for example.

Are you expecting, that these translator will need to be programmers
too, please? Consider you this as the same contributing as the
developers and maintainers are doing?

> > What I don't understand is that criticism and other forms of
> > speaking up cannot be considered as a form of contribution.
> 
> Constructive criticism is often a useful contribution. Destructive
> criticism, much less so.
> 
> Disagree all you want, but don't malign others when you do so. (Or at
> least, don't do it on Debian communication infrastructure.)
> 

You ask the constructive criticism. It can be terrible, because i am
not a developer. I am a user and i have enough knowledge to see, if i
something want/need or not, if something is working for me or not,
etc. But i have no enough knowledge how to fix problems.

Then, please, leave the constructive criticism for the developers,
which can to know how to do things better if users see that it is not
very good. If not, then i will understand your words as quandary and as
effort to silence unsatisfied users without real solving of
their problems and this is what i see as something really
non-constructive.

regards

-- 
Slavko
http://slavino.sk

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Eclipse do not start in jessie

2014-09-21 Thread Niklas Seyfarth

Hi,
since my last update eclipse hangs during startup with "Loading
Workbench", but do not show the select workspace window.
I already tried to purge and reinstall eclipse to exclude any config error.

Has anyone an idea how to fix it?

Thank you in advance,
Niklas



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Re: Systemd, systemd, and more systemd ...

2014-09-21 Thread David L. Craig

On 14Sep21:1618+0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sun 21 Sep 2014 at 09:47:32 -0400, David L. Craig wrote:
> 
> You didn't accept an upgrade to the new default init system. But you
> accepted the new sysvinit package.

Yes, after systemd broke the system as described in
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=762146
since I'm trying to be a good Sid user and test new
defaults, backing them out when necessary to get the
platform functioning again.
-- 

May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!

Dave_Craig__
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
 You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
 Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_

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Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?