Re: exif --remove not idempotent, and a Debian man page bug

[Emanuel Berg]

David Wright wrote:

>> See the first post ...
>
> The OP didn't contain any exif output, only a couple of
> command lines, apparently written in zsh shell

Look again!

> The focus of the thread seems to have changed to the meaning
> of a word in the Subject, and an old email address that
> might help in distinguishing Lutz Mueller from all the other
> Lutz Muellers.

I have now clarified to the best of my ability the meaning of
that word and I think that will help people understand at last
why incorrect tech information, actually disinformation at
that point, can't be allowed in software documentation. I get
it now that this was the root of the confusion but as always
everything in time ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: OT: mysql-workbench alternative

[Gareth Evans]

On 24 Sep 2022, at 22:55, Nicholas Geovanis  wrote:On Sat, Sep 24, 2022, 2:47 PM Gareth Evans  wrote:Given what looks to be the ongoing absence of mysql-workbench in stable:

https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/mysql-workbench

Can anyone recommend a free (at least as in beer) alternative that creates ERDs automatically from MariaDB?It's just an educated guess but can't doxygen do that?I'll have a look at that.Search results for doxygen include schemaspy as a preferred alternative (at least for someone) - so will try that too.I was hoping for a database... IDE? ... rather than a diagramming tool alone, but one of the above in combination with my current preferred DB admin front end might just do.Thanks,Gareth

Re: exif --remove not idempotent, and a Debian man page bug

[David Wright]

On Sun 25 Sep 2022 at 07:52:38 (+0200), Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > If I had the first inkling of a clue what an exif tag
> > actually *was* I might try testing it myself. I'm gathering
> > that it has something to do with JPEG images, based on the
> > *.modified.jpeg default output filename. Beyond that,
> > I know nothing.
> >
> > One of you people who knows this software and has a testable
> > input file should (please!) try it, and show us the results.
> 
> See the first post ...

The OP didn't contain any exif output, only a couple of command
lines, apparently written in zsh shell, and some chit-chat.

The focus of the thread seems to have changed to the meaning of
a word in the Subject, and an old email address that might help
in distinguishing Lutz Mueller from all the other Lutz Muellers.

Cheers,
David.

Re: idempotent (was Re: exif --remove not idempotent, and a Debian man page bug)

[debian-user]

> rhkramer wrote:
> 
> > An operation that produces the same results no matter how
> > many times it is performed.  
> 
> Yeah, obviously it is a term from math and in practical and
> applied engineering as is programming I thought of
> a definition (not really) like this
> 
> - apply once, you get the change
> 
> - apply twice, thrice, or n'ice, nothing happens since the
>   change happened the first time and there is nothing to do
> 
> Stefan and Tomás can tell I know...
> 
> Anyway in math everyone understands it, and an example is the
> absolute value,
> 
> abs(x) = ...
> 
> abs(abs(x)) = ...
> 
> abs..(abs(abs(x))) = ...
> 
> Same!
> 
> And that's pretty close to what I just said.
> 
> The difference if any seems to be, in math focus is on the
> return value, so it is easy - is it the same or not?
> 
> Im programming, focus is "can I apply it to make sure the job
> is done, and don't have to think - has it already been done? -
> because if so, no matter how many times, it won't ruin it,
> just nothing will happen over and over and whatever stuff it
> is applied on will be in the after-applied, desired form".
> 
> That's right, right? Or am I wrong?

Sorry, but what's the practical point of all this discussion?

Re: idempotent (was Re: exif --remove not idempotent, and a Debian man page bug)

[Emanuel Berg]

The Wanderer wrote:

> If the nature of operation O is such that objects B and
> C are guaranteed to always be identical, no matter what
> object A was, then operation O is categorized as
> being idempotent.

It has to do with the number of times it is applied,

abs(x) = abs(abs(x)) = abs..(abs(abs(x)))

The same!

This is the math definition, my use case of the word was
applied programming so it cannot be _exactly_ like that.

Well, maybe in Haskell it can ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: idempotent (was Re: exif --remove not idempotent, and a Debian man page bug)

[Emanuel Berg]

rhkramer wrote:

> An operation that produces the same results no matter how
> many times it is performed.

Yeah, obviously it is a term from math and in practical and
applied engineering as is programming I thought of
a definition (not really) like this

- apply once, you get the change

- apply twice, thrice, or n'ice, nothing happens since the
  change happened the first time and there is nothing to do

Stefan and Tomás can tell I know...

Anyway in math everyone understands it, and an example is the
absolute value,

abs(x) = ...

abs(abs(x)) = ...

abs..(abs(abs(x))) = ...

Same!

And that's pretty close to what I just said.

The difference if any seems to be, in math focus is on the
return value, so it is easy - is it the same or not?

Im programming, focus is "can I apply it to make sure the job
is done, and don't have to think - has it already been done? -
because if so, no matter how many times, it won't ruin it,
just nothing will happen over and over and whatever stuff it
is applied on will be in the after-applied, desired form".

That's right, right? Or am I wrong?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Dash man page not correct?

[Charles Curley]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2022 11:10:39 -0400
The Wanderer  wrote:

> Alternately, please consider subscribing, so that you will receive
> replies regardless.

Please do. Some of us crusty old curmudgeons don't always remember to
CC people who aren't on the list.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/


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Re: Allocate tty1 for kernel messages

[basti]

Am 25.09.22 um 17:25 schrieb David Wright:

On Sun 25 Sep 2022 at 17:01:23 (+0200), Dmitry Katsubo wrote:

I am trying to make a following setup on Debian bullseye:

* tty1 is used to display kernel messages only
* tty[2-5] are allocated for login

I have modified /etc/default/console-setup so that it reads:

ACTIVE_CONSOLES="/dev/tty[2-5]"

and rebooted. What I observe is that tty1 displays kernel messages during the 
boot (OK) but also ends with an invitation for login on tty1 (WRONG).

How can I force that tty1 is not used for login?


I think you still need to run:

# dpkg-reconfigure console-setup

to get that variable enacted. Then check that the file
/etc/console-setup/cached_setup_keyboard.sh, which AIUI
is what does the work, has been modified.

That's similar for a lot of configuration parameters
in /etc/default/.

Cheers,
David.



Hello,

first of all disable login on tty1:

systemctl disable getty@tty1.service

Then in /etc/systemd/journald.conf:
(or in one of the conf.d folders, see man journald.conf.d)

ForwardToConsole=yes
TTYPath=/dev/tty1

Will do it.

Best regards

Re: idempotent (was Re: exif --remove not idempotent, and a Debian man page bug)

[hede]

Am 25.09.2022 14:42, schrieb The Wanderer:

On 2022-09-25 at 08:22, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:


On second thought, what hede wrote is correct, it is just stated in a
way that I wasn't famiiar with (and I haven't had my morning coffee
yet)


Are you sure?


Meanwhile, I do think my description was not correct. Sorry for that. 
But probably the tool matches the definition, if it writes the same data 
in the second run. ;-)


((( off topic addition:
On 2022-09-25 at 08:22, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote


[...]

[...]

[...]
If you reply: [...] avoid HTML; [...]


I love this kind of humor ;-)

)))

Re: Dash man page not correct?

[Perry Smith]

> On Sep 25, 2022, at 10:10, The Wanderer  wrote:
> 
> On 2022-09-25 at 11:00, Perry Smith wrote:
> 
>> I have Debian bullseye installed in a container.  My reading of the man 
>> page[1]
>> is to use the -i flag to get dash to read $HOME/.profile.  But that doesn’t 
>> seem
>> to work for me.  Instead, -l needs to be used.   At least, that seems to be 
>> true for
>> me using Docker.  Does this seem to be correct?  If so, I will open a bug 
>> report
>> but thought I would check here since Docker might be the root cause somehow.
> 
> I replied to your message on the same day it was sent. If you have not
> seen it, I suspect you may well not be subscribed to the mailing list.
> 
> If you want to be CCed on replies to messages you send to the mailing
> list, please state that in the message itself.
> 
> Alternately, please consider subscribing, so that you will receive
> replies regardless.
> 
> In the meantime, you can read replies already sent via the list
> archives, which are available at:
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/
> 
> My specific reply can be seen at:
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2022/09/msg00611.html

Thank you.  I was not subscribed.  I went to 
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ 
and searched but didn’t notice that it was only page 1 of 2.

I misunderstood / misread this phrase:

… the shell is also considered a login shell …

In particular the ‘also’.  The only suggestion I can give is something like:

When first starting, the shell inspects argument 0, and if it begins with a 
dash ‘-’,
the shell is considered a login shell which is also interactive.

The first time “login” is mentioned is after the “also” implying that inclusion 
in
something else.

A separate paragraph might make it clearer as well since the topic has shifted
from an interactive shell to a login shell.

Perry



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Re: Allocate tty1 for kernel messages

[David Wright]

On Sun 25 Sep 2022 at 17:01:23 (+0200), Dmitry Katsubo wrote:
> I am trying to make a following setup on Debian bullseye:
> 
> * tty1 is used to display kernel messages only
> * tty[2-5] are allocated for login
> 
> I have modified /etc/default/console-setup so that it reads:
> 
> ACTIVE_CONSOLES="/dev/tty[2-5]"
> 
> and rebooted. What I observe is that tty1 displays kernel messages during the 
> boot (OK) but also ends with an invitation for login on tty1 (WRONG).
> 
> How can I force that tty1 is not used for login?

I think you still need to run:

# dpkg-reconfigure console-setup

to get that variable enacted. Then check that the file
/etc/console-setup/cached_setup_keyboard.sh, which AIUI
is what does the work, has been modified.

That's similar for a lot of configuration parameters
in /etc/default/.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Dash man page not correct?

[The Wanderer]

On 2022-09-25 at 11:00, Perry Smith wrote:

> I have Debian bullseye installed in a container.  My reading of the man 
> page[1]
> is to use the -i flag to get dash to read $HOME/.profile.  But that doesn’t 
> seem
> to work for me.  Instead, -l needs to be used.   At least, that seems to be 
> true for
> me using Docker.  Does this seem to be correct?  If so, I will open a bug 
> report
> but thought I would check here since Docker might be the root cause somehow.

I replied to your message on the same day it was sent. If you have not
seen it, I suspect you may well not be subscribed to the mailing list.

If you want to be CCed on replies to messages you send to the mailing
list, please state that in the message itself.

Alternately, please consider subscribing, so that you will receive
replies regardless.

In the meantime, you can read replies already sent via the list
archives, which are available at:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/

My specific reply can be seen at:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2022/09/msg00611.html

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Allocate tty1 for kernel messages

[Dmitry Katsubo]

Dear Debian users,

I am trying to make a following setup on Debian bullseye:

* tty1 is used to display kernel messages only
* tty[2-5] are allocated for login

I have modified /etc/default/console-setup so that it reads:

ACTIVE_CONSOLES="/dev/tty[2-5]"

and rebooted. What I observe is that tty1 displays kernel messages during the 
boot (OK) but also ends with an invitation for login on tty1 (WRONG).

How can I force that tty1 is not used for login?

Thanks in advance.

Similar topics:

* https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/console-setup/+bug/1789170
* 
https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/newb-question-console-setup-tty-changed-but-not-taking-effect.83368/
* 
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/198791/how-do-i-permanently-change-the-console-tty-font-type-so-it-holds-after-reboot

-- 
With best regards,
Dmitry

Dash man page not correct?

[Perry Smith]

I have Debian bullseye installed in a container.  My reading of the man page[1]
is to use the -i flag to get dash to read $HOME/.profile.  But that doesn’t seem
to work for me.  Instead, -l needs to be used.   At least, that seems to be 
true for
me using Docker.  Does this seem to be correct?  If so, I will open a bug report
but thought I would check here since Docker might be the root cause somehow.

Thank you,
Perry
[1] https://manpages.debian.org/bullseye/dash/dash.1.en.html 



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Re: idempotent (was Re: exif --remove not idempotent, and a Debian man page bug)

[The Wanderer]

On 2022-09-25 at 08:22, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

> Oops, ignore that previous response ...
> 
> On second thought, what hede wrote is correct, it is just stated in a
> way that I wasn't famiiar with (and I haven't had my morning coffee
> yet)

Are you sure?

Because it doesn't seem to match my understanding of the meaning of the
word, and what you gave as an alternative seems closer.


If I had to describe the concept of idempotence, I might choose
something like:

Take object A.

Apply it as input to operation O, and get object B as output.

Take object B, apply it as input to operation O, and get object C as output.

If the nature of operation O is such that objects B and C are guaranteed
to always be identical, no matter what object A was, then operation O is
categorized as being idempotent.


That's not producing the same output with the same input (which is how I
read the explanation that hede gave); that's producing the same output
with both the original input *and* the output obtained by processing
that original input.


The definitions found in foldoc and in the Jargon File seem compatible
with that.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: idempotent (was Re: exif --remove not idempotent, and a Debian man page bug)

[rhkramer]

Oops, ignore that previous response ...

On second thought, what hede wrote is correct, it is just stated in a way that 
I wasn't famiiar with (and I haven't had my morning coffee yet) 

Sorry for the noise!

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 07:56:08 AM rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 24, 2022 09:17:31 AM hede wrote:
> > "Idempotent" means, that a task with the same input data and the same
> > config (for example to remove a tag via exif-tool) results in the same
> > output data. Is this the case here?
> 
> That is not my understanding of itempotent (nor of Wikipedia).  A succinct
> quote from another source:
> 
> 
> An operation that produces the same results no matter how many times it is
> performed.
> 
> 
> Some examples from (simple) math include adding zero or multiplying by 1. 
> An example from "real life" could be pressing the on (or off) button on
> some electronic device.

-- 
rhk

If you reply: snip, snip, and snip again; leave attributions; avoid HTML; 
avoid top posting; and keep it "on list".  (Oxford comma included at no 
charge.)  If you change topics, change the Subject: line. 

Writing is often meant for others to read and understand (legal agreements 
excepted?) -- make it easier for your reader by various means, including 
liberal use of whitespace and minimal use of (obscure?) jargon, abbreviations, 
acronyms, and references.

If someone else has already responded to a question, decide whether any 
response you add will be helpful or not ...

A picture is worth a thousand words -- divide by 10 for each minute of video 
(or audio) or create a transcript and edit it to 10% of the original.

idempotent (was Re: exif --remove not idempotent, and a Debian man page bug)

[rhkramer]

On Saturday, September 24, 2022 09:17:31 AM hede wrote:
> "Idempotent" means, that a task with the same input data and the same
> config (for example to remove a tag via exif-tool) results in the same
> output data. Is this the case here?

That is not my understanding of itempotent (nor of Wikipedia).  A succinct 
quote from another source:


An operation that produces the same results no matter how many times it is 
performed. 


Some examples from (simple) math include adding zero or multiplying by 1.  An 
example from "real life" could be pressing the on (or off) button on some 
electronic device.

-- 
rhk

If you reply: snip, snip, and snip again; leave attributions; avoid HTML; 
avoid top posting; and keep it "on list".  (Oxford comma included at no 
charge.)  If you change topics, change the Subject: line. 

Writing is often meant for others to read and understand (legal agreements 
excepted?) -- make it easier for your reader by various means, including 
liberal use of whitespace and minimal use of (obscure?) jargon, abbreviations, 
acronyms, and references.

If someone else has already responded to a question, decide whether any 
response you add will be helpful or not ...

A picture is worth a thousand words -- divide by 10 for each minute of video 
(or audio) or create a transcript and edit it to 10% of the original.

Installation of Debian bookworm (testing) on Lenovo IdeaPad 5G 14Q8X05

[Oliver Müller]

Hi,

the aforementioned ARM Notebook ships with the Qualcomm Snapdragon 8cx
Gen 1 aka SM8450, which was introduced in Linux Kernel 5.17. Firmware
for SM8450 is not included with firmware-qcom-soc (20210818-1) for bookworm.

Trying to install with a built thumb drive from
https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-builds/arm64/iso-dvd/debian-testing-arm64-DVD-1.iso
2022-09-19 03:34 3.7G booting the Kernel from the UEFI boot menu fails.
Making Grub a little more chatty by removing quiet from the boot options
I get a brief message:

'Booting a command list

EFI stub: Booting Linux Kernel...
EFI stub: Using DTB from configuration table
EFI stub: Exiting boot services...'

Followed by a reboot.

Am I under the right impression that the ISO ships with a Linux Kernel
5.19 that is compiled with SM8450 support?

Are there any activities with the vendor to provide you with the
firmware for SM8450 in the near future? Maybe benefit from Lenovo
ThinkPad X13s G1, Snapdragon 8cx Gen3 support in Linux Kernel 5.20.

Away from all that do you have any other suggestions to run the installer?

Thank you so much and have a nice weekend.

Best regards

Oliver

Re: exif --remove not idempotent, and a Debian man page bug

[The Wanderer]

On 2022-09-25 at 01:43, Emanuel Berg wrote:

> The Wanderer wrote:

>>> There should be no history entries in the man pages that
>>> relates to practical aspects that are no
>>> longer operational.
>>
>> The E-mail address doesn't relate to a practical
>> aspect, though.
> 
> Ikr? Since it doesn't work! Just remove it.

It does work: it works to identify which of the people with the
referenced name is the one who is being referred to, because only one of
those people either has or formerly had that address.

As I said in the part you snipped, it is *identifying* information.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: /dev/dvb do not exist

[Dmitry Katsubo]

On 2022-09-21 19:59, Thierry Leurent wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I'm trying to configure an FM/DAB/DVB stick, it's an r820t using an rtl2838 
> chip.
> I'm able to listen fm radios.
> When I use w_scan, it is not able to find the folder /dev/dvb.
> 
> How can I create this ?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Thierry

Hello,

How do you perform the channel scanning? E.g.

* Install [dvb-apps](http://packages.debian.org/dvb-apps) and perform the 
channel scanning:

$ scan /usr/share/dvb/dvb-t/nl-All > channels.conf

You will see among other staff something like this:

>>> tune to: 
>>> 72200:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_1_2:FEC_AUTO:QAM_64:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE
0x 0x044d: pmt_pid 0x1b62 Digitenne -- Nederland 1 (running)
0x 0x044e: pmt_pid 0x1b6c Digitenne -- Nederland 2 (running)
0x 0x044f: pmt_pid 0x1b76 Digitenne -- Nederland 3 (running)
0x 0x0450: pmt_pid 0x1b80 Digitenne -- TV West (running)
0x 0x0457: pmt_pid 0x1bc6 Digitenne -- Radio West (running)
0x 0x0458: pmt_pid 0x1bd0 Digitenne -- Radio 1 (running)
0x 0x0459: pmt_pid 0x1bda Digitenne -- Radio 2 (running)
0x 0x045a: pmt_pid 0x1be4 Digitenne -- 3FM (running)
0x 0x045b: pmt_pid 0x1bee Digitenne -- Radio 4 (running)
0x 0x045c: pmt_pid 0x1bf8 Digitenne -- Radio 5 (running)
0x 0x045d: pmt_pid 0x1c02 Digitenne -- Radio 6 (running)
0x 0x045f: pmt_pid 0x1c16 Digitenne -- FunX (running)
Network Name 'Digitenne'

* Install any player that supports DVB on your wish (Xine, mplayer, Xawtv, Me 
TV7).
For e.g. xine and mplayer copy the scanned channels information to 
~/.xine/channels.conf and ~/.mplayer/channels.conf correspondingly. Launch the 
player:

$ xine "dvb://Nederland 1"

* Enjoy :)


-- 
With best regards,
Dmitry