Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Richard Stallman]

Could you please tell me if we have some mailing list ready to organize
some kind of struggle against this kind of insanities which are starting
to plague the internet?

I don't know of one.  I think it is a worthy cause, but I am
overloaded already so I cannot take the lead here.

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Roberto Diaz]

> People need to express their views in other situations--when a site
> decides to *use* mail-abuse.org and block mail from dynamic sites.
> Is Debian doing anything like this?

Could you please tell me if we have some mailing list ready to organize
some kind of struggle against this kind of insanities which are starting
to plague the internet?

If I cant write to the debian list looking for help.. looking for ideas
about how to show other or convince other that MAPS DUL is more a problem
than a solution please tell me where I can do this.

If we have not resources for our freedom of expression as a group of
individuals who have their rights and their own opinions and at the end
we can not join our strength to struggle together then we havent strength
at all..

As ever sorry for my english..

Thank you!

Roberto


Regards

Roberto


Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://vivaldi.dhis.org
Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel.
Powered by Debian (The real wonder)

Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor
Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Richard Stallman]

I don't like this either.  However, I don't think that expressing
anger at whoever runs mail-abuse.org will be effective.  He is not likely
to listen to us.

People need to express their views in other situations--when a site
decides to *use* mail-abuse.org and block mail from dynamic sites.
Is Debian doing anything like this?

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Remi" == Remi Lefebvre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Remi>  Your ISP hopefully provides a relay for your outgoing mail,
 Remi>  which relay accepts your mail based on your IP (should accept 
 Remi> only mail from its clients). Why can't you use that one ?

The operative word is hopefully. There can be several
 reasons: My ISP went bankrupt, and another provider is supposed to
 take over operations. While the connectivity has been impeccable, the
 SMTP server has been down for 2 1/2 weeks now. 

Another reason may be that in some areas of the world the
 SMTP service costs additional money, and thus not a viable
 alternative. 

Narrow minded approaches about the ``one true way'' to set up
 one's SMTP infrastructure rapidly get boring.

manoj
-- 
 How apt the poor are to be proud. William Shakespeare,
 "Twelfth-Night"
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Alan" == Alan Shutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Alan> The usual response to this is 

 Alan> "Your ISP gives you a mailserver through which to relay mail.  Set a
 Alan> smarthost and get over it."

 Alan> Why isn't that sufficient for you?

This seems a particularly naive world view. Not every one
 lives where the conditions are like they are where ever you
 live. There are circumstances that prevent doing that. 

Let us examine the rationale behind the DUL: well, there were
 some spammers that use open relays on dialups, so, let us penalize
 all dial up users. By the same logic, since most crimes are committed
 in cities, we should jail everyone living in a city. 

moronic, ain't it?

manoj
-- 
 "I turn on my television set.  I see a young lady who goes under the
 guise of being a Christian, known all over the nation, dressed in
 skin-tight leather pants, shaking and wiggling her hips to the beat
 and rhythm of the music as the strobe lights beat their patterns
 across the stage and the band plays the contemporary rock sound which
 cannot be differentiated from songs by the Grateful Dead, the
 Beatles, or anyone else.  And you may try to tell me this is of God
 and that it is leading people to Christ, but I know better." Jimmy
 Swaggart, hypocritical sexual pervert and TV preacher, self-described
 pornography addict, "Two points of view: 'Christian' rock and roll.",
 The Evangelist, 17(8): 49-50.
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Alan" == Alan Shutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Alan> Gary Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
 >> Do they? I can name at least one which may not (depending on the 
 >> tarif you choose). 

 Alan> If you have an ISP who doesn't provide a mail server for you but
 Alan> provides you with a DUL-listed IP, that's your fault.

So, you willing to remit me the money every month to upgrade
 to a provider with a working SMTP server?  

manoj
-- 
 Humor in the Court: Mrs. Smith, do you believe that you are
 emotionally unstable? I should be. How many times have you comitted
 suicide? Four times.
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Jaye Inabnit ke6sls]

That's a pretty valid point Roberto.. That is why I learned how to use/build 
radio! I see more and more of this repression & censorship everyday. I 
shudder to think what it is like for our debian brothers and sisters in 
nations where you can't legally even surf the internet for NEWS! It will get 
worse too. Here we have AOL. Big brother IS watching you, and hearing you, 
and keeping tabs on your non-encrypted email!

Fact is, the good ole net ain't what it was. RMS is a great example of what 
happened here in the USA - over night; it became a crime to share code!

dynamic ip's were/are a pain to live with, but in the radio world, we have 
met the challenge and I think that is what you need to see it as - a 
challenge.

Now the challenge will soon be that we run ftp servers on our boxes, but that 
may likely violate your ISP's rules of use. Same if you have apache running! 
Or ANY other service. It's just gonna get worse.

Good luck to you.

On Tuesday 03 April 2001 14:27, Roberto Diaz wrote:
> > If you have an ISP who doesn't provide a mail server for you but
> > provides you with a DUL-listed IP, that's your fault.
>
> Please.. there are a lot of combinations.. a lot of countries a lot of
> realities.. you can have no chance to choose a ISP who provides you
> SMTP/POP and is not your fault..
>
> Anyway there is no point... if we cant agree that to block the entire
> internet dynamic segment is to go too far.. I can't see how we can
> agree..
>
> Think for example in a lot of third-world countries maybe in some places
> they could be using dynamic DNS as the only way to have multiple e-mail
> for everybody in a small village.. they maybe only can afford a dial-up
> connection...
>
> Now maybe they havent mail anymore.. because first-world citizens have
> decided they dont want to have spam and they will sacrifice whatever
> thing that could be needed to achieve this..
>
> There is a lot of realities.. please.. the world is big.
>
> Regards
>
> Roberto
>
> 
> Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> http://vivaldi.dhis.org
> Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel.
> Powered by Debian (The real wonder)
>
> Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor
> Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)
> 

-- 

Jaye Inabnit\ARS ke6sls/TELE: USA-707-442-6579\/A GNU-Debian linux user
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WEB: http://www.qsl.net/ke6sls ICQ: 12741145
If it's stupid, but works, it ain't stupid. SHOUT JUST FOR FUN.
Free software, in a free world, for a free spirit. Support freedom!

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Ethan Benson]

On Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 12:54:01PM -0400, Alan Shutko wrote:
> Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > They want to block the whole IP's which are dynamic so they can not
> > send mail anymore so every guy in the internet will have to depend
> > upon a third-party mail relay to send mail.. whats the next?
> 
> The usual response to this is 
> 
> "Your ISP gives you a mailserver through which to relay mail.  Set a
> smarthost and get over it."
> 
> Why isn't that sufficient for you?

because most ISPs can't route mail worth a damn anymore.  and in many
places there simply IS NO alternative ISPs that can provide any decent
service. 

-- 
Ethan Benson
http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/


pgpxRmZkE0knK.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Christian Pernegger]

On Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 12:54:01PM -0400, Alan Shutko wrote:
> Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > They want to block the whole IP's which are dynamic so they can not
> > send mail anymore so every guy in the internet will have to depend
> > upon a third-party mail relay to send mail.. whats the next?
> 
> The usual response to this is 
> 
> "Your ISP gives you a mailserver through which to relay mail.  Set a
> smarthost and get over it."
> 
> Why isn't that sufficient for you?

Maybe because you have usually only a limited number of e-mail
addresses at your ISP, which you usually have to pay for?

Maybe because some ISP's mail relays tend to be down and/or slow.

Maybe because the ISP's relay is itself blocked?

Maybe because I've found it is impossible here to get a static
IP with correct DNS entries (in this country.) Our ISPs seem to
think a domain is just a pretty string for after the http://
They offer redirection but nothing more.

This wasn't a problem when DUs were mostly analog modems which
were clearly unsuited for running MTAs, now we've got cable
and xDSL. Oh well...

Christian

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Roberto Diaz]

> If you find an actual case like this, I'd bet that MAPS would take
> that range off the list.  

I bet we will never know.. thats always the case with poor people nobody
wants to know about them.

> But you won't be bothered by reality, since you care about the
> principle of the thing.

Principles are the conclusion of reality. It is for reality for what I am
suffering this day which has been a nightmare.

And now please lets stop this.. which is senseless.. if you want to
struggle the insanity of DUL go ahead if you dont want dont do it.. but
let people to know and to think a little bit deeper about what DUL is
meaning.

My apologies to everybody.. I've never ever had started this thread if I
wont consider it was worthy enough even to put into risk my
"membership" to this wonderful list.

Thank you!

Regards

Roberto


Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://vivaldi.dhis.org
Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel.
Powered by Debian (The real wonder)

Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor
Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[John Galt]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Godwin's Razor has been invoked: second warning.

On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Roberto Diaz wrote:

>> I have no idea why you cc'd this email to debian-user, since Debian does
>> NOT rely on the DUL as part of our spam-blocking setup.
>
>Because there are some human beings here.. people who are ready to fully
>understand the stupid and dangerous of using DUL.
>
>Just think.. you only have to break the methods they use to find out when
>an ip is dynamic and voila you can blind thousands of ip's. including your
>ISP relay ip,.
>
>> Of course, I don't know why you cc'd RMS either. I'm a little suprised
>> that [EMAIL PROTECTED] wasn't in that cc line too.
>
>I dont consider worthy to write the USA president.. and maybe neither
>RMS.. I was try to cc: Mahatma Gandi.. but unfotunately he is out of
>this world.. currently.
>
>And where do you want me to complain about DUL? must I look for help
>to struggle this insanity writing to an astrology mailing list?
>
>Regards
>
>Roberto
>
>
>Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>http://vivaldi.dhis.org
>Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel.
>Powered by Debian (The real wonder)
>
>Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor
>Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)
>
>
>
>

- -- 
The early worm gets the bird.

Who is John Galt?  [EMAIL PROTECTED], that's who!

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBOspoJB9mehuYcOjMEQIgKwCg8eoMQBxc7VwU6XwXBCWhCs+84B4AoLKz
Kcn9y7sy2SqghbC9iAnasxnL
=bMnm
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Roberto Diaz]

> I have no idea why you cc'd this email to debian-user, since Debian does
> NOT rely on the DUL as part of our spam-blocking setup.

Because there are some human beings here.. people who are ready to fully 
understand the stupid and dangerous of using DUL. 

Just think.. you only have to break the methods they use to find out when
an ip is dynamic and voila you can blind thousands of ip's. including your
ISP relay ip,.

> Of course, I don't know why you cc'd RMS either. I'm a little suprised
> that [EMAIL PROTECTED] wasn't in that cc line too.

I dont consider worthy to write the USA president.. and maybe neither
RMS.. I was try to cc: Mahatma Gandi.. but unfotunately he is out of
this world.. currently.

And where do you want me to complain about DUL? must I look for help
to struggle this insanity writing to an astrology mailing list?

Regards

Roberto


Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://vivaldi.dhis.org
Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel.
Powered by Debian (The real wonder)

Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor
Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[John Galt]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


I invoke Godwin's razor and declare this thread dead!  Fascism has been
mentioned, EOT.

On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Roberto Diaz wrote:

>
>And I insist that what you are doing with dynamic ip's has a
>name.. FASCISM.
>
>Sorry very much but this is the true.. spammers always will find
>a work-around since they have nothing better to do with their lifes.
>
>By blocking the whole dynamic segment of the internet you are
>not a solution anymore but a part of the problem.
>
>There are limits you have to respect... you cant burn an entire
>country to end a plague. you cant put inocents into jail to stop crime.
>
>Please stop doing this.. who in the hell are you to block the whole
>dynamic segment of the internet? it is ABSURD.
>
>> Otherwise I read all that was fed into this ticket and, while the
>> technology for dynamic IP DNS systems evolved considerably over the
>> past two years since DUL started, the basic problem has not changed.
>> Spammers, looking for every possible way to send their unwanted traffic
>> without leaving an audit trail, forced DUL into existence.  It is too
>> bad that otherwise legitimate uses for dynamic IP are impaired somewhat
>> because of this, even so you can still send mail to DUL subscribers by
>> using a fixed IP mail server you're authorized to use for outgoing mail.
>>
>> --
>> STOP E-MAIL TRESPASSING. 
>> PGP public key (0x8EF878B5) available at
>> 
>> If you're going to send me mail you consider confidential
>> and privileged, use PGP.  
>>
>>
>>
>
>Regards
>
>Roberto
>
>
>Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>http://vivaldi.ddts.net
>Powered by ddt dynamic DNS
>Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel.
>Powered by Debian (The real wonder)
>
>Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor
>Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)
>
>
>
>

- -- 
The early worm gets the bird.

Who is John Galt?  [EMAIL PROTECTED], that's who!

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBOspPrB9mehuYcOjMEQLSdQCeP60U1LuyatpO2s6rgYz1lxaoxCMAnRGE
uROzhy59Crv/08pJBZtJMKg6
=G/mL
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Joey Hess]

Roberto Diaz wrote:
> By blocking the whole dynamic segment of the internet you are 
> not a solution anymore but a part of the problem.

I have no idea why you cc'd this email to debian-user, since Debian does
NOT rely on the DUL as part of our spam-blocking setup.

Of course, I don't know why you cc'd RMS either. I'm a little suprised
that [EMAIL PROTECTED] wasn't in that cc line too.

-- 
see shy jo

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Alan Shutko]

Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Think for example in a lot of third-world countries maybe in some places
> they could be using dynamic DNS as the only way to have multiple e-mail
> for everybody in a small village.. they maybe only can afford a dial-up
> connection...

If you find an actual case like this, I'd bet that MAPS would take
that range off the list.  

But you won't be bothered by reality, since you care about the
principle of the thing.

-- 
Alan Shutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - In a variety of flavors!
Money is the root of all wealth.

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Roberto Diaz]

> If you have an ISP who doesn't provide a mail server for you but
> provides you with a DUL-listed IP, that's your fault.

Please.. there are a lot of combinations.. a lot of countries a lot of
realities.. you can have no chance to choose a ISP who provides you
SMTP/POP and is not your fault..

Anyway there is no point... if we cant agree that to block the entire
internet dynamic segment is to go too far.. I can't see how we can 
agree..

Think for example in a lot of third-world countries maybe in some places
they could be using dynamic DNS as the only way to have multiple e-mail
for everybody in a small village.. they maybe only can afford a dial-up
connection...

Now maybe they havent mail anymore.. because first-world citizens have
decided they dont want to have spam and they will sacrifice whatever
thing that could be needed to achieve this..

There is a lot of realities.. please.. the world is big.

Regards

Roberto


Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://vivaldi.dhis.org
Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel.
Powered by Debian (The real wonder)

Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor
Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[John Hasler]

Nate Amsden writes:
> ISPs don't take the responsibility most of the time to restrict outgoing
> mail to their servers(ive worked at a few so i know this from the
> inside), dynamic ips should NOT be allowed to send mail, there should be
> stuff in the router or firewall or whatever to prevent this.

Blacklisting dynamic IP's I can live with, but I would find this _highly_
objectionable.
-- 
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[John Hasler]

Gary Jones writes:
> Do they? I can name at least one which may not (depending on the tarif
> you choose). They might provide a newsserver as well, but it doesn't mean
> you are forced to use it, either to read or post.

This is true.  You can contract with anyone you want to for either news or
mail service.

The fact is, we can no longer send mail directly from dynamic IP's and
there is nothing you, I or Debian can do about it.
-- 
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Alan Shutko]

Gary Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Do they? I can name at least one which may not (depending on the 
> tarif you choose). 

If you have an ISP who doesn't provide a mail server for you but
provides you with a DUL-listed IP, that's your fault.

-- 
Alan Shutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - In a variety of flavors!
Far duller than a serpent's tooth it is to spend a quiet youth.

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Nate Amsden]

Roberto Diaz wrote:
> 
> I am sending this here because according to mail-abuse.org I and the whole
> dynamic dns users are spammers just because we are using dynamic ip's.
> I want all the debian mail relay's administrators be very aware about
> this.

can't win it all. the amount of spam blocked by blocking dynamic ips
outnumbers legit mail probably by several hundred to 1. ISPs don't
take the responsibility most of the time to restrict outgoing mail
to their servers(ive worked at a few so i know this from the inside),
dynamic ips should NOT be allowed to send mail, there should be stuff
in the router or firewall or whatever to prevent this. because most
isps do not do this people have to resort to blocking all dynamic
ips.

this causes an inconvience for some, but thats how it is, can't make
everyone happy. if places like maps stop blocking dynamic ips there
would probably be an even greater number of people crying out to
re instate the blocks. just have to live with it.

i suggest finding a new isp if they are blacklisted.

nate

-- 
:::
ICQ: 75132336
http://www.aphroland.org/
http://www.linuxpowered.net/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Gary Jones]

On 3 Apr 2001, Alan Shutko wrote:

> Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > They want to block the whole IP's which are dynamic so they can not
> > send mail anymore so every guy in the internet will have to depend
> > upon a third-party mail relay to send mail
[..]
> "Your ISP gives you a mailserver through which to relay mail.  Set a
> smarthost and get over it."

Do they? I can name at least one which may not (depending on the 
tarif you choose). They might provide a newsserver as well, but it 
doesn't mean you are forced to use it, either to read or post.

> Why isn't that sufficient for you?

Because that is not the way the internet works[1].


[1] You may substitute "should work" if you prefer.
-- 
Gary
Debian 2.1r4 (kernel v2.0.39); XFree86 3.3.6
Ghastly .sigs, have they no ending?

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Roberto Diaz]

Dont thank God for being such a coward..

> Thank God for procmail!
> 
> :0
> * [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> /dev/null/
> 
> Bye
> 
> Glyn M

Regards

Roberto


Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://vivaldi.dhis.org
Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel.
Powered by Debian (The real wonder)

Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor
Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Glyn Millington]

Thank God for procmail!

:0
* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
/dev/null/

Bye

Glyn M

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Roberto Diaz]

> Just citing "a principle" is _not_ enough to change the MAPS folks'
> minds.  That's why it isn't sufficient for me.

So do you think is ok to treat to put the complete dynamic ip segment into
a black list?

Maybe is because I am getting old,, but in the 80's (when I was
young) this would have been enougth to fire up a riot..

Anyway.. times changes.. 

Regards

Roberto


Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://vivaldi.dhis.org
Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel.
Powered by Debian (The real wonder)

Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor
Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Roberto Diaz]

> The problem you are having, Roberto, as nothing to do with DDT but with
> you being on a dynamic connection. The truth is a static connection is
> much better suited for servers, but it is possible to run a server on a
> dynamic connection (much more affordable). One downside is some people
> will reject your mail (which as nothing to do with DDT).

When do I have told that my problems had something to do with
DDT.. untill your message telling me to get a "real connection" 
never ever!!

But now you say that DDT is only for pointing.. for that I could
use ICQ as well most people uses DDT for mail.. thats a fact.

DDT has been working great for me all the time... why does ddt let me
down? because Remi advise me to get a "real connection",..

I have the connection I can afford.. If I could afford FR I wont be using
a dial-up connection.

Be aware That all my complains was for MAPS DUL not for you.. I was
defending the right to use your linux box the way you like the right to be
inoccent if nobody is able to show you are guilty.. so maintaining black
list about ip's is a little bit hideous.. I think.

Of course this has nothing to do with you.. but affect the people who use
your software for mail.. now you say that we can not use it for mail? ok
tell this in your site.. 


Regards

Roberto


Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://vivaldi.dhis.org
Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel.
Powered by Debian (The real wonder)

Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor
Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Remi Lefebvre]

Hi,

Ok, let's that get everything clear.

DDT provides DNS services. Not mail services. However, there's a relation
between mail and DNS as far as mail routing go (read about MX records for
more). We do not provide any kind of SMTP services for DDT users whatsoever.

Now, why would someone want to use DDT, or DHIS, or any other such service?
To have a name/fqdn/addy that resolves to their IP (and not the other way
around, we have no control over IPs, your ISP do). The use of having such
a name pointing to your IP is so it is easier to reference your box that
gets a often-complicated-and-long name pointing to the IP. Indeed, it is
more friendly to type 'vivaldi.ddts.net' than 
'263-MADR-XL1.libre.retevision.es'!

The FQDN is useful for people who want to run a server on a box. The most
common types of services are SMTP (the mail), HTTP and SSH. If you have a
FQDN that always points to your box, whatever the IP it gets is, you can
then run those services and have people reach them using the name
'vivaldi.ddts.net'. That way, people can watch your webpage at
http://vivaldi.ddts.net/ or send you mail at [EMAIL PROTECTED] That is
very useful and works very well with DDT or any DDT-like service (DHIS is one
of them).

The problem you are having, Roberto, as nothing to do with DDT but with
you being on a dynamic connection. The truth is a static connection is
much better suited for servers, but it is possible to run a server on a
dynamic connection (much more affordable). One downside is some people
will reject your mail (which as nothing to do with DDT).

 
On Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 06:55:24PM +0200, Roberto Diaz wrote:
> > If you absolutely want to run a real server, geez, get a real connection.
> 
> I was using ddt for mail.. and for nothing else.. if you dont want me to
> use it.. OK but dont lie.. in your site you had specific instructions
> about how to run a mail server using ddt.

We give instruction because it is common for people to run a mail server.
You are free to run whatever you like on your box (with the exception of
offensive material). Don't whine at DDT if you can't send out email though,
because it's got nothing to do with us.

However, everybody is welcome to use the ddt-user list to ask questions
about configuration or even the DUL, we will be glad to help you. Just
don't come whining like Roberto did, cross-posting the MAPS guy, debian-user
and even RMS (who has absolutely nothing to do with the situation at all).

Attacking DDT on the debian-user mailing list is not going to help anything
much either. Please get a clue and keep your head cold.

ciao

-- 
Remi


pgpX1gCWf0WLJ.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Alan Shutko]

Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I am telling about a principle.. nobody should put the entire dynamic
> internet segment into a black list.. 
> 
> Why isn't is this sufficient for you?

Because the Internet has changed, and most people either don't care
about the DUL, or think it's a good idea because of the amount of
spam.

The DUL has been around for quite a while.  Many, many people are
using it.  Ranting and whining on debian-user will not change their
minds.  OTOH, making a one-line change to your sendmail.cf (or similar
file) will allow you to send whatever mail you want.

In this rant, you haven't made any points which haven't been made
before, and haven't given any good reason which might counteract
.  So you've been deluging my
inbox with no hope of actually changing the situation.

Just citing "a principle" is _not_ enough to change the MAPS folks'
minds.  That's why it isn't sufficient for me.

-- 
Alan Shutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - In a variety of flavors!
You have a deep interest in all that is artistic.

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Roberto Diaz]

> "Your ISP gives you a mailserver through which to relay mail.  Set a
> smarthost and get over it."
> Why isn't that sufficient for you?

I am telling about a principle.. nobody should put the entire dynamic
internet segment into a black list.. 

Why isn't is this sufficient for you?


Regards

Roberto


Roberto Diaz
Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel.
Powered by Debian (The real wonder)

Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor
Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Roberto Diaz]

> If you absolutely want to run a real server, geez, get a real connection.

I was using ddt for mail.. and for nothing else.. if you dont want me to
use it.. OK but dont lie.. in your site you had specific instructions
about how to run a mail server using ddt.

Now I really dont advise anybody to run your software since it really wil 
let you down.. for what did you code a dynamic DNS to tell at the end:

"If you absolutely want to run a real server, geez, get a real connection"

And for people from MAPS I have say enough..

Regards

Roberto


Roberto Diaz 
Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel.
Powered by Debian (The real wonder)

Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor
Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Alan Shutko]

Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> They want to block the whole IP's which are dynamic so they can not
> send mail anymore so every guy in the internet will have to depend
> upon a third-party mail relay to send mail.. whats the next?

The usual response to this is 

"Your ISP gives you a mailserver through which to relay mail.  Set a
smarthost and get over it."

Why isn't that sufficient for you?

-- 
Alan Shutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - In a variety of flavors!
If you explain so clearly that nobody can misunderstand, somebody will.

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Remi Lefebvre]

Roberto,

Your IP is listed in the DUL list because it is in a dynamic IP range. There's
nothing to whine about there since it really does belong in that list.

The point to argue about is whether it is wise for relays to block based on
the DUL. My personal opinion is its an inneficient way of filetring SPAM and
that it causes more trouble than anything else. Tell that to the specific
people blocking you, not to the guys administering the DUL.

You want to run mail services on your dynamic host, well, just play with the
fact you have a dynamic IP. Your ISP hopefully provides a relay for your 
outgoing mail, which relay accepts your mail based on your IP (should accept
only mail from its clients). Why can't you use that one ?

If you absolutely want to run a real server, geez, get a real connection.

I don't think there's anything else to be said about that so please, stop
mailing ddt-user.

ciao

-- 
Remi


pgpFlgAyrCEDT.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Roberto Diaz]

And I insist that what you are doing with dynamic ip's has a
name.. FASCISM. 

Sorry very much but this is the true.. spammers always will find
a work-around since they have nothing better to do with their lifes.

By blocking the whole dynamic segment of the internet you are 
not a solution anymore but a part of the problem.

There are limits you have to respect... you cant burn an entire 
country to end a plague. you cant put inocents into jail to stop crime.

Please stop doing this.. who in the hell are you to block the whole
dynamic segment of the internet? it is ABSURD.

> Otherwise I read all that was fed into this ticket and, while the 
> technology for dynamic IP DNS systems evolved considerably over the 
> past two years since DUL started, the basic problem has not changed.  
> Spammers, looking for every possible way to send their unwanted traffic 
> without leaving an audit trail, forced DUL into existence.  It is too 
> bad that otherwise legitimate uses for dynamic IP are impaired somewhat 
> because of this, even so you can still send mail to DUL subscribers by 
> using a fixed IP mail server you're authorized to use for outgoing mail.
> 
> -- 
> STOP E-MAIL TRESPASSING. 
> PGP public key (0x8EF878B5) available at
> 
> If you're going to send me mail you consider confidential
> and privileged, use PGP.  
> 
> 
> 

Regards

Roberto


Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://vivaldi.ddts.net 
Powered by ddt dynamic DNS
Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel.
Powered by Debian (The real wonder)

Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor
Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)

Re: [MAPS #33478] Re: Whats goin on?

[Roberto Diaz]

I am sending this here because according to mail-abuse.org I and the whole 
dynamic dns users are spammers just because we are using dynamic ip's.
I want all the debian mail relay's administrators be very aware about
this.
 
They want to block the whole IP's which are dynamic so they can not send
mail anymore so every guy in the internet will have to depend upon 
a third-party mail relay to send mail.. whats the next?

mail-abuse.org is doing something like "lets put into jail every people who 
are living in a city where a crime has been commited"... this reminds me those
times in France when nazis killed 100 inocent persons for each nazi killed.

In fact my last IP was to a blacklist.. blacklist!! are we becaming 
insane?

whats the next? whats the next brilliant idea to ruin other valuable 
services like those you can achieve using ddt or dhis? maybe the next 
recommendation from  mail-abuse.org will be something like:

"please send your mail using only secure-relay.echelon.gov"

Please all of you who are administrating mail relays take this into 
account when using the services from mail-abuse.org. Not everybody who
sends mail using dynamic ip's are spammers just dynamic dns users, and 
to give the power to mail-abuse.org to decide who can send mail and who
cant into your system maybe it is to give them too much power.. maybe 
that should be **your power** and  **not** their power..

Who is abusing more the mail now? spammers or mail-abuse.org?


> On Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 11:20:35PM +0200, Roberto Diaz wrote:
> > > If I am understanding things correctly, the purpose of the mail blacklist 
> > > is 
> > > to prevent spammers from spamming, while allowing legitimate e-mails 
> > > through. Since ddts, dhis, and all of the other dynamic IP, static 
> > > hostname 
> > > providers are designed to allow users on a dynamic IP to act as servers, 
> > > sending e-mail is one of the functions that legitimate administrators of 
> > > these dyn-ip servers would wish to do.
> > 
> > I think your proposal is quite worthy.. Why dont allow fully functional
> > servers just because they are using dynamic ip's?
> 
> I think you need to convince people that DUL is a bad thing then. It can be 
> argued
> whether blocking mail coming from dynamic IPs is worthy. Some people claim 
> most
> spammers use dynamic IPs, therefore mail from dynamic IPs should be blocked. 
> Others
> claim we shouldnt block 'good' mail based on the assumption that it may be 
> spam.
> 
> The truth is some people believe mail from dynamic IPs is more often junk
> than worthy mail. Therefore, they use DUL and block it. Which makes the life 
> of
> people who use dynamic hosts as servers (most of our users) difficult.
> 
> As Luca stated before in this thread, we do not provide SMTP services and 
> there's
> nothing we can do about DUL since its blocking based on IP addresses, not on 
> domain
> names (plus that your IP never resolve to your .ddts.net addy but only the 
> other
> way around). We are not going to provide any relaying for outgoing mail from 
> users
> either if that's what you wanted, that would almost certainly get us in the 
> RBL
> (or whichever service it is for open relays).
> 
> I am sad there are spammers in this world really. Yes, it is a pain to use a 
> dynamic
> connection for running a real server, especially for email. I would advise 
> that 
> people use an email address from their provider for important mail.
> 
> ciao
> 
> -- 
> Remi
> 

Regards

Roberto


Roberto Diaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://vivaldi.ddts.net 
Powered by ddt dynamic DNS
Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel.
Powered by Debian (The real wonder)

Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor
Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)