Re: Holy Gnome3 Invasion, Batman! - Testing Upgrades 06/30/2013
On 06/30/2013 11:38 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > [JFTR, I hit the same issue a while ago in unstable, and it took a while > to clean via aptitude's interactive interface] > > On Du, 30 iun 13, 17:49:13, Jape Person wrote: >> >> So...my problem was that I was just using my package manager improperly. >> (Self-inflicted wounds are always the most irksome, aren't they?) The >> aptitude >> default setting of installing recommends probably works okay for Gnome and >> KDE, >> but perhaps a little less so for Xfce or the even more minimalist DEs. > > I don't think it's a matter of DE, but what you are using the system > for, available resources and admin knowledge. > > If the point of the installation is to be, let's say, multifunctional, > then installing Recommends (except maybe specific packages) is useful. > > If your system is designed for quite specific needs or even has to run > with limited resources (e.g. a Raspberry Pi class machine), then turning > Recommends off and installing them only as needed is probably more > practical. > > Beware though that, as with every non-default setting, you may be using > your system in a way that is not as thoroughly tested or supported as > the default setting. And don't even bother to report bugs about missing > functionality before checking the Recommends. > > Kind regards, > Andrei Thank you for those observations. I haven't participated much on this list, but I've noted that your contributions are always among the most helpful and insightful. In point of fact, I used to always use aptitude to install only the harder dependencies and was used to having to search through the Audit / Recommends function to fix any missing functionality that I needed. In retrospect, that happened very infrequently, so I'm pretty happy to operate that way. Adding only as needed seems to work okay for me. I may be a little obsessive about avoiding the installation of stuff that (I think) actually doesn't do anything for me. Even Xfce seems to be getting a little "heavy" for my tastes, though I think it's a pretty good compromise between provision of a fully functional DE and simplicity. On some systems I have used only a WM -- sometimes even eschewing use of a DM. They haven't been quite as "pretty" as my Xfce systems, but I hardly miss the decoration when I'm busy actually working with the systems. I will be mindful about not reporting bugs without checking the Recommends list. But I'd rather take that tack than watch the whole of the Gnome DE come flooding onto my ostensibly Xfce system, essentially because of a bluetooth dependency. I avoid bluetooth like the plague and turn off the hardware on all my systems. ;-) Thanks again for your observations. J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51d177f2.9090...@comcast.net
Re: Holy Gnome3 Invasion, Batman! - Testing Upgrades 06/30/2013
[JFTR, I hit the same issue a while ago in unstable, and it took a while to clean via aptitude's interactive interface] On Du, 30 iun 13, 17:49:13, Jape Person wrote: > > So...my problem was that I was just using my package manager improperly. > (Self-inflicted wounds are always the most irksome, aren't they?) The aptitude > default setting of installing recommends probably works okay for Gnome and > KDE, > but perhaps a little less so for Xfce or the even more minimalist DEs. I don't think it's a matter of DE, but what you are using the system for, available resources and admin knowledge. If the point of the installation is to be, let's say, multifunctional, then installing Recommends (except maybe specific packages) is useful. If your system is designed for quite specific needs or even has to run with limited resources (e.g. a Raspberry Pi class machine), then turning Recommends off and installing them only as needed is probably more practical. Beware though that, as with every non-default setting, you may be using your system in a way that is not as thoroughly tested or supported as the default setting. And don't even bother to report bugs about missing functionality before checking the Recommends. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Holy Gnome3 Invasion, Batman! - Testing Upgrades 06/30/2013
On 06/30/2013 04:01 PM, Jochen Spieker wrote:
> Patrick Wiseman:
>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:06 AM, Jape Person wrote:
>>>
>>> Forgive the facetious thread title, please. I just about got knocked out of
>>> my
>>> socks this morning when I ran my daily upgrade checks in aptitude.
>>>
>>> I run Debian testing with Xfce, and I'd like to keep it that way.
>>
>> Me, too.
>
> I know it is nitpicking and slightly beside the point, but still: only
> because apt wants to install (parts of) Gnome, it doesn't force you to
> run it.
>
> Sure, you should be able to install exactly what you want and nothing
> more, but even a few hundred megabytes don't really need to bother you
> on a desktop system less than ten years old. Even if you install KDE,
> Gnome, Xfce and every other desktop system you can think of, the Debian
> installation does not necessarily use more than, say, 10-12GB.
>
> I don't even use one of the big desktop environments but like to have at
> least Gnome and Xfce installed, just in case someone else wants to use
> my computer. (I usually use the „awesome“ window manager which is
> awkward to use for the uninitiated).
>
>> […] The way I avoid what you saw this
>> morning is to tell aptitude NOT to install by default packages
>> recommended by other packages. That seems to prevent a lot of
>> unnecessary installations. So I recommend setting that option in
>> aptitude! You always have the option, after scanning what's
>> recommended, to install what you want.
>
> ACK, I do that too. From my /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/local:
>
> APT {
> Install-Recommends "false";
> }
>
> Aptitude {
> Recommends-Important"false";
> Keep-Recommends "true";
> Keep-Suggests "true";
> }
>
> J.
Certainly, I think I get your point here. But 117 packages is truly a bit much
for a curmudgeon like me to buy. This appeared to be the bulk of the Gnome
desktop. And I have seen "competing" DEs installed on the same system interfere
with each other in some pretty annoying ways. It's not as though they have no
effect whatsoever on each other. The most irritating interactions I've dealt
with personally are the ways in which the DEs can (I should say "could",
perhaps, since this was some time ago.) affect each other through things like
update-alternatives. What works for one may not work so well for another.
And then there's the fact that stuff I don't need is stuff I don't need. I might
be able to put up with a little avoirdupois on my system, I suppose. But the
added weight plus even the possibility that I might encounter an unwanted
interaction is more than enough to get me to avoid wholesale introduction of new
packages onto my systems. If I don't need the function, I don't need or want the
packages.
But -- if, like you -- I had a system on which I used a window manager like
awesome and which I wanted to be able to share with users who wanted or needed a
DE, it would certainly make sense to install a couple of the more popular DEs.
It's not like they'd be likely to get in my way when I was just using the window
manager.
BTW, I told aptitude to not install recommends as Patrick suggested, then
re-installed gnome-bluetooth. It just pulled in the data package plus a couple
of orphaned packages that I removed this morning after blowing away
gnome-bluetooth. This outcome is much superior from my standpoint (and, I
assume, Patrick's) to the landslide of additional packages I was looking at this
morning.
So...my problem was that I was just using my package manager improperly.
(Self-inflicted wounds are always the most irksome, aren't they?) The aptitude
default setting of installing recommends probably works okay for Gnome and KDE,
but perhaps a little less so for Xfce or the even more minimalist DEs.
Regards,
J.
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Re: Holy Gnome3 Invasion, Batman! - Testing Upgrades 06/30/2013
Patrick Wiseman:
> On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:06 AM, Jape Person wrote:
>>
>> Forgive the facetious thread title, please. I just about got knocked out of
>> my
>> socks this morning when I ran my daily upgrade checks in aptitude.
>>
>> I run Debian testing with Xfce, and I'd like to keep it that way.
>
> Me, too.
I know it is nitpicking and slightly beside the point, but still: only
because apt wants to install (parts of) Gnome, it doesn't force you to
run it.
Sure, you should be able to install exactly what you want and nothing
more, but even a few hundred megabytes don't really need to bother you
on a desktop system less than ten years old. Even if you install KDE,
Gnome, Xfce and every other desktop system you can think of, the Debian
installation does not necessarily use more than, say, 10-12GB.
I don't even use one of the big desktop environments but like to have at
least Gnome and Xfce installed, just in case someone else wants to use
my computer. (I usually use the „awesome“ window manager which is
awkward to use for the uninitiated).
> […] The way I avoid what you saw this
> morning is to tell aptitude NOT to install by default packages
> recommended by other packages. That seems to prevent a lot of
> unnecessary installations. So I recommend setting that option in
> aptitude! You always have the option, after scanning what's
> recommended, to install what you want.
ACK, I do that too. From my /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/local:
APT {
Install-Recommends "false";
}
Aptitude {
Recommends-Important"false";
Keep-Recommends "true";
Keep-Suggests "true";
}
J.
--
We are lining up to see you fall flat on your face.
[Agree] [Disagree]
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Re: Holy Gnome3 Invasion, Batman! - Testing Upgrades 06/30/2013
On 06/30/2013 11:06 AM, Jape Person wrote: > On 06/30/2013 10:40 AM, Patrick Wiseman wrote: >> On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:06 AM, Jape Person wrote: >>> Hi! >>> >>> Forgive the facetious thread title, please. I just about got knocked out of >>> my >>> socks this morning when I ran my daily upgrade checks in aptitude. >>> >>> I run Debian testing with Xfce, and I'd like to keep it that way. >> >> Me, too. >> >>> About a year ago I switched out Wicd for network-manager-gnome so that I >>> could >>> make use of the latter package's ability to control VPN connections. I guess >>> that's the root cause of this little adventure. (However, IIRC, Xfce has >>> started >>> using network-manager-gnome instead of Wicd anyway.) >>> >>> This morning the usual upgrades included a gnome-bluetooth updgrade that >>> wanted >>> to pull in what appeared to be just about everything from the Gnome DE -- >>> roughly 117 packages. The gnome-bluetooth package was apparently on the >>> system >>> because the network manager wants it there. >>> >>> This was easy enough to prevent. I just held everything while I got rid of >>> gnome-bluetooth and its playmates, then put a forbid on gnome-bluetooth. The >>> ensuing upgrade attempt was a lot more reasonable. >>> >>> I don't suppose this really qualifies as a bug -- particularly since >>> network-manager-gnome really is a part of the Gnome DE. But I imagine a few >>> folks who use it in other DEs are going to be a little consternated by >>> today's >>> upgrades if they don't pay fairly close attention before committing to them. >>> >>> Thanks for reading my tale of woe (whoa?). >> >> I think this happened because gnome-bluetooth recommends >> gnome-control-center which in its turn depends on a bunch of stuff I >> don't need (and most of which is not on my system) and recommends a >> bunch more unnecessary stuff. The way I avoid what you saw this >> morning is to tell aptitude NOT to install by default packages >> recommended by other packages. That seems to prevent a lot of >> unnecessary installations. So I recommend setting that option in >> aptitude! You always have the option, after scanning what's >> recommended, to install what you want. >> >> Patrick > > That's a good point. Back when I decided to use Debian testing I decided to > stick with the default aptitude setting, which -- as you have indicated -- may > not be a great idea for those of us who prefer to keep things a little > simpler. > It does seem as though some of the recommends are a little excessive and > certainly shouldn't be treated as though they were hard dependencies. > > I'm not sure which will result in me doing less fiddling around in aptitude -- > not having recommends set to be installed by default and adding them manually > as > desired, or having aptitude set to install them by default and keeping a > watchful eye. It's really pretty easy to spot 117 new installations with the > aptitude TUI. But I often see smaller lists of new installations being brought > in and might end up installing stuff I don't need if I'm not on my toes. > > I think I'll take your advice. This (no recommends) is the way I used to use > aptitude. > > And you are exactly right about gnome-panel. The gnome-bluetooth package > itself > didn't require addition of all of the dross, but it's request for gnome-panel > is > what caused the landslide of recommended installations. > > J. > > ...and by gnome-panel I, of course, meant gnome-control-center... Yeesh, I'm muddle-headed today! J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51d05d8f.7090...@comcast.net
Re: Holy Gnome3 Invasion, Batman! - Testing Upgrades 06/30/2013
On 06/30/2013 10:40 AM, Patrick Wiseman wrote: > On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:06 AM, Jape Person wrote: >> Hi! >> >> Forgive the facetious thread title, please. I just about got knocked out of >> my >> socks this morning when I ran my daily upgrade checks in aptitude. >> >> I run Debian testing with Xfce, and I'd like to keep it that way. > > Me, too. > >> About a year ago I switched out Wicd for network-manager-gnome so that I >> could >> make use of the latter package's ability to control VPN connections. I guess >> that's the root cause of this little adventure. (However, IIRC, Xfce has >> started >> using network-manager-gnome instead of Wicd anyway.) >> >> This morning the usual upgrades included a gnome-bluetooth updgrade that >> wanted >> to pull in what appeared to be just about everything from the Gnome DE -- >> roughly 117 packages. The gnome-bluetooth package was apparently on the >> system >> because the network manager wants it there. >> >> This was easy enough to prevent. I just held everything while I got rid of >> gnome-bluetooth and its playmates, then put a forbid on gnome-bluetooth. The >> ensuing upgrade attempt was a lot more reasonable. >> >> I don't suppose this really qualifies as a bug -- particularly since >> network-manager-gnome really is a part of the Gnome DE. But I imagine a few >> folks who use it in other DEs are going to be a little consternated by >> today's >> upgrades if they don't pay fairly close attention before committing to them. >> >> Thanks for reading my tale of woe (whoa?). > > I think this happened because gnome-bluetooth recommends > gnome-control-center which in its turn depends on a bunch of stuff I > don't need (and most of which is not on my system) and recommends a > bunch more unnecessary stuff. The way I avoid what you saw this > morning is to tell aptitude NOT to install by default packages > recommended by other packages. That seems to prevent a lot of > unnecessary installations. So I recommend setting that option in > aptitude! You always have the option, after scanning what's > recommended, to install what you want. > > Patrick That's a good point. Back when I decided to use Debian testing I decided to stick with the default aptitude setting, which -- as you have indicated -- may not be a great idea for those of us who prefer to keep things a little simpler. It does seem as though some of the recommends are a little excessive and certainly shouldn't be treated as though they were hard dependencies. I'm not sure which will result in me doing less fiddling around in aptitude -- not having recommends set to be installed by default and adding them manually as desired, or having aptitude set to install them by default and keeping a watchful eye. It's really pretty easy to spot 117 new installations with the aptitude TUI. But I often see smaller lists of new installations being brought in and might end up installing stuff I don't need if I'm not on my toes. I think I'll take your advice. This (no recommends) is the way I used to use aptitude. And you are exactly right about gnome-panel. The gnome-bluetooth package itself didn't require addition of all of the dross, but it's request for gnome-panel is what caused the landslide of recommended installations. J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51d0497a.4050...@comcast.net
Re: Holy Gnome3 Invasion, Batman! - Testing Upgrades 06/30/2013
On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:06 AM, Jape Person wrote: > Hi! > > Forgive the facetious thread title, please. I just about got knocked out of my > socks this morning when I ran my daily upgrade checks in aptitude. > > I run Debian testing with Xfce, and I'd like to keep it that way. Me, too. > About a year ago I switched out Wicd for network-manager-gnome so that I could > make use of the latter package's ability to control VPN connections. I guess > that's the root cause of this little adventure. (However, IIRC, Xfce has > started > using network-manager-gnome instead of Wicd anyway.) > > This morning the usual upgrades included a gnome-bluetooth updgrade that > wanted > to pull in what appeared to be just about everything from the Gnome DE -- > roughly 117 packages. The gnome-bluetooth package was apparently on the system > because the network manager wants it there. > > This was easy enough to prevent. I just held everything while I got rid of > gnome-bluetooth and its playmates, then put a forbid on gnome-bluetooth. The > ensuing upgrade attempt was a lot more reasonable. > > I don't suppose this really qualifies as a bug -- particularly since > network-manager-gnome really is a part of the Gnome DE. But I imagine a few > folks who use it in other DEs are going to be a little consternated by today's > upgrades if they don't pay fairly close attention before committing to them. > > Thanks for reading my tale of woe (whoa?). I think this happened because gnome-bluetooth recommends gnome-control-center which in its turn depends on a bunch of stuff I don't need (and most of which is not on my system) and recommends a bunch more unnecessary stuff. The way I avoid what you saw this morning is to tell aptitude NOT to install by default packages recommended by other packages. That seems to prevent a lot of unnecessary installations. So I recommend setting that option in aptitude! You always have the option, after scanning what's recommended, to install what you want. Patrick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAJVvKsPvMT5F97wQWXwFb65tdqQW5NtAMFhFyOoZD8G=kr0...@mail.gmail.com
Holy Gnome3 Invasion, Batman! - Testing Upgrades 06/30/2013
Hi! Forgive the facetious thread title, please. I just about got knocked out of my socks this morning when I ran my daily upgrade checks in aptitude. I run Debian testing with Xfce, and I'd like to keep it that way. About a year ago I switched out Wicd for network-manager-gnome so that I could make use of the latter package's ability to control VPN connections. I guess that's the root cause of this little adventure. (However, IIRC, Xfce has started using network-manager-gnome instead of Wicd anyway.) This morning the usual upgrades included a gnome-bluetooth updgrade that wanted to pull in what appeared to be just about everything from the Gnome DE -- roughly 117 packages. The gnome-bluetooth package was apparently on the system because the network manager wants it there. This was easy enough to prevent. I just held everything while I got rid of gnome-bluetooth and its playmates, then put a forbid on gnome-bluetooth. The ensuing upgrade attempt was a lot more reasonable. I don't suppose this really qualifies as a bug -- particularly since network-manager-gnome really is a part of the Gnome DE. But I imagine a few folks who use it in other DEs are going to be a little consternated by today's upgrades if they don't pay fairly close attention before committing to them. Thanks for reading my tale of woe (whoa?). J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51d03b7d.9080...@comcast.net
