Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Nick Lidakis]

> I was find this on net, but newer tray it 
> http://www.debuntu.org/2006/06/03/61-how-to-burn-dvds-from-the-command-line
> If it work let us know :-)

I was hoping for something ncurses based and featureful. Thanks anyway.


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[godo]

Nick Lidakis wrote:

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 09:12:12AM -0300, Leandro Quibem Magnabosco wrote:

This thread *has* to stop!



Or it could veer lightly back on topic...

Since I have been having so much fun using and learing mutt lately,
and since I've been trying to wean myself off of using GUI programs
(GTK and KDE(k3b))) that need a boatload of dependencies, I thought I would
give the debain package cdw a try.

Cdw's homepage states that the current version is 0.3.93, with
the last release being this August. Debian's package is 0.3.3. Seems a
bit outdated and the feature set seems limited. 

The "Copy Audio CD" doesn't really copy a cd, it just "Copy audio tracks 
from audio CD to separate files on hard disc". I wasn't even able to

get this to work.

Anybody have any other recommendations for a a good ncurses cd writer
tool? Ideally I would like to be able to do an instant copy (from hda
to hdb) od an audio cd, burn debian and ubuntu iso's, and write data
files to cd and dvd+ and -r.




I was find this on net, but newer tray it 
http://www.debuntu.org/2006/06/03/61-how-to-burn-dvds-from-the-command-line

If it work let us know :-)

And about kitty's...I think that god kills them because they enjoy it or 
because he is frustrated old man and this tread is his pathetic excuse.


Bye,
Goran Dobosevic
Hrvatski: www.dobosevic.com
 English: www.dobosevic.com/en/


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Liviu Andronic]

On 10/16/09, Nick Lidakis  wrote:
>  Since I have been having so much fun using and learing mutt lately,
>  and since I've been trying to wean myself off of using GUI programs
>  (GTK and KDE(k3b))) that need a boatload of dependencies, I thought I would
>  give the debain package cdw a try.
>
You would probably get more luck by starting a new thread.

>  Cdw's homepage states that the current version is 0.3.93, with
>  the last release being this August. Debian's package is 0.3.3. Seems a
>  bit outdated and the feature set seems limited.
>
>  The "Copy Audio CD" doesn't really copy a cd, it just "Copy audio tracks
>  from audio CD to separate files on hard disc". I wasn't even able to
>  get this to work.
>
>  Anybody have any other recommendations for a a good ncurses cd writer
>  tool? Ideally I would like to be able to do an instant copy (from hda
>  to hdb) od an audio cd, burn debian and ubuntu iso's, and write data
>  files to cd and dvd+ and -r.
>
Not ncurses, but tcl/tk. Tkdvd should be light enough, although it
seems missing from Debian's repos.
Liviu


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Nick Lidakis]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 09:12:12AM -0300, Leandro Quibem Magnabosco wrote:
> This thread *has* to stop!
> 

Or it could veer lightly back on topic...

Since I have been having so much fun using and learing mutt lately,
and since I've been trying to wean myself off of using GUI programs
(GTK and KDE(k3b))) that need a boatload of dependencies, I thought I would
give the debain package cdw a try.

Cdw's homepage states that the current version is 0.3.93, with
the last release being this August. Debian's package is 0.3.3. Seems a
bit outdated and the feature set seems limited. 

The "Copy Audio CD" doesn't really copy a cd, it just "Copy audio tracks 
from audio CD to separate files on hard disc". I wasn't even able to
get this to work.

Anybody have any other recommendations for a a good ncurses cd writer
tool? Ideally I would like to be able to do an instant copy (from hda
to hdb) od an audio cd, burn debian and ubuntu iso's, and write data
files to cd and dvd+ and -r.




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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Γιώργος Πάλλας]

Matthew Moore wrote:
> On Friday October 16 2009 10:56:29 am Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
>   
>> On Friday 16 October 2009 11:03:13 Matthew Moore wrote:
>> 
>>> On Friday October 16 2009 9:11:05 am Lee Winter wrote:
>>>   
 And you are adding to it in order to shorten it?
 
>>> This thread is much like any infinite set. Adding a finite number of
>>> elements to it does not change it's size.
>>>   
>> By size do you mean cardinality or ordinality?
>> 
>
> The size of a set is a cardinal number. Generally, when you talk about the 
> "size" of a set, you are referring to it's cardinality.
>
>   
>> You can take a set of (infinite) ordinality aleph-naught and add single new
>> element that is greater than all the others (generally denoted "1*") and
>>  get a new set of the same cardinality but an ordinality of aleph-naught +
>>  1.
>> 
>
> I suppose that you are thinking of the "length of the thread" as the length 
> of 
> the maximal ascending (or descending) ordered chain (here a b 
> is a reply to a). I admit that I interpreted "this thread has to stop!" as 
> "this thread must stop having additional members added to it!" and not "this 
> thread must have a finite maximal chain!".
>
> MM
>
>   

stop the damn thread!

--a kitty



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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Matthew Moore]

On Friday October 16 2009 10:56:29 am Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> On Friday 16 October 2009 11:03:13 Matthew Moore wrote:
> > On Friday October 16 2009 9:11:05 am Lee Winter wrote:
> > > And you are adding to it in order to shorten it?
> >
> > This thread is much like any infinite set. Adding a finite number of
> > elements to it does not change it's size.
> 
> By size do you mean cardinality or ordinality?

The size of a set is a cardinal number. Generally, when you talk about the 
"size" of a set, you are referring to it's cardinality.

> You can take a set of (infinite) ordinality aleph-naught and add single new
> element that is greater than all the others (generally denoted "1*") and
>  get a new set of the same cardinality but an ordinality of aleph-naught +
>  1.

I suppose that you are thinking of the "length of the thread" as the length of 
the maximal ascending (or descending) ordered chain (here a

Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Matthew Moore]

On Friday October 16 2009 10:39:23 am you wrote:
> > This thread is much like any infinite set. Adding a finite number of
> > elements to it does not change it's size.
> 
> Good point.  But I think there's a reasonable quibble about the
> difference between unbounded and infinite (in the cantorian sense).

In order to define boundedness, you require some kind of ambient space in which 
to embed your set. If your ambient space is a nonmetrizable infinite 
topological space, you may be right, depending on the topology. Cantor, 
however, worked with densely ordered metrizable spaces. These spaces have a 
measure, called the generalized Lebesgue measure. With regard to this measure, 
the size of a finite number of elements is 0. Hence adding a finite number of 
elements to ANY subset of a "cantorian" space does not change its "size" (i.e. 
it's measure).

MM


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

On Friday 16 October 2009 11:03:13 Matthew Moore wrote:
> On Friday October 16 2009 9:11:05 am Lee Winter wrote:
> > And you are adding to it in order to shorten it?
>
> This thread is much like any infinite set. Adding a finite number of
> elements to it does not change it's size.

By size do you mean cardinality or ordinality?

You can take a set of (infinite) ordinality aleph-naught and add single new 
element that is greater than all the others (generally denoted "1*") and get a 
new set of the same cardinality but an ordinality of aleph-naught + 1.
-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
b...@iguanasuicide.net  ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Lee Winter]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Matthew Moore
 wrote:
> On Friday October 16 2009 9:11:05 am Lee Winter wrote:
>>  wrote:
>> > This thread *has* to stop!
>>
>> And you are adding to it in order to shorten it?
>
> This thread is much like any infinite set. Adding a finite number of elements 
> to
> it does not change it's size.

Good point.  But I think there's a reasonable quibble about the
difference between unbounded and infinite (in the cantorian sense).

>
>> > Every time someone replys to this thread, God kills a kitty.
>>
>> Who told you that?
>>
>> > It's true.
>>
>> How would you know?
>
> 2 observations:
>
> (1) I kill a kitty every time this thread is posted to.
> (2) you cannot prove that I am not god.

(1) is a on't care.
(2) is obviously false by inspection because I am.

I think this is related to the proof of existence of actions god
cannot perform like creating a stone so heavy he cannot reflect it.
Being your probably belongs in that class.

-- Lee

P.S. for the purposes of this thread we should assume that there is no
such thing otherwise we would have to submit to his/her/its dicta re
list message length and the suitablity of Reply-To headers.  Thus the
topic is OT for this thread (as opposed to OT for this list).  -- L.


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[John Hasler]

MM writes:
> (1) I kill a kitty every time this thread is posted to.

There are too damn many cats anyway.

> (2) you cannot prove that I am not god.

Yes I can.  I am god.  I can prove anything.
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[randall]

Matthew Moore wrote:
> On Friday October 16 2009 9:11:05 am Lee Winter wrote:
>>  wrote:
>>> This thread *has* to stop!
>> And you are adding to it in order to shorten it?
> 
> This thread is much like any infinite set. Adding a finite number of elements 
> to 
> it does not change it's size.
> 
>>> Every time someone replys to this thread, God kills a kitty.
>> Who told you that?
>>
>>> It's true.
>> How would you know?
> 
> 2 observations:
> 
> (1) I kill a kitty every time this thread is posted to.
> (2) you cannot prove that I am not god.
> 
> MM
> 
> 
i'm not a god and can even prove that.

nevertheless i do kill kitties


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Matthew Moore]

On Friday October 16 2009 9:11:05 am Lee Winter wrote:
>  wrote:
> > This thread *has* to stop!
> 
> And you are adding to it in order to shorten it?

This thread is much like any infinite set. Adding a finite number of elements 
to 
it does not change it's size.

> > Every time someone replys to this thread, God kills a kitty.
> 
> Who told you that?
> 
> > It's true.
> 
> How would you know?

2 observations:

(1) I kill a kitty every time this thread is posted to.
(2) you cannot prove that I am not god.

MM


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Lee Winter]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 8:12 AM, Leandro Quibem Magnabosco
 wrote:
> This thread *has* to stop!

And you are adding to it in order to shorten it?

>
> =(
>
> Every time someone replys to this thread, God kills a kitty.

Who told you that?

> It's true.

How would you know?

-- Lee


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Leandro Quibem Magnabosco]

This thread *has* to stop!

=(

Every time someone replys to this thread, God kills a kitty.
It's true.


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Chris Jones]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 05:26:05PM EDT, Neal Hogan wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 3:52 PM, Chris Jones  wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 04:10:35PM EDT, John Hasler wrote:
> >> CJ writes:
> >> > What exactly is on-topic to debian-user?
> >>
> >> The use of Debian.
> >
> > And therefore discussing _debian_ mailing-lists policy.
> >
> 
> I'm curious . . . when you mention this are thinking of the many
> threads involving rants about gmail, hotmaill, outlook, etc.,
> reply-to-sender, reply-reply to list, etc.?

I'm not interested in whatever mailer they use to post to the list, as
long as they abide by the list's policy.

As far as I can tell, the folks who run these lists are doing a great
job and I trust their choices. 

Please note, that I didn't start this reply-to-list subthread but all
the same, I felt that I had the right to voice an opinion.

> If so, in what sense are they debian issues (i.e., the distro you're
> running)?

debian mailing lists are an intrisic part of debian because they provide
support to the user community.

http://www.debian.org/support

I used RedHat for about a year and saw nothing remotely comparable.

I had a few experiences with ubuntu forums and found them quite friendly
but pretty much useless whenever I needed solid technical advice.

As such, anything that relates to debian mailing lists always gets my
attention. 

> > How does the choice of a CD/DVD writer program have anything to do
> > with the distribution you are running?

> 
> It's an issue of (distro) supported devices . . . no?

He's not asking about devices. He's asking about CD/DVD writer programs.

In any case, my feeling about this is that if there is a bug in the
debian packaging of one particular program, or if the program has a
major security hole as shipped by debian, then it clearly becomes a
debian issue. 

Otherwise, strictly speaking, anything that has to do with the
particular program's merit of lack thereof, how you configure it to best
suit your requirements, etc. is just about as OT on debian-user as my
favorite color of underwear.

Please note, that I was not complaining that this particular issue is OT
to the list, just saying that there is nothing debian-specific about it.
It's worth discussing per se, and if the OP is looking for sound advice,
he's probably spot on asking here rather than elsewhere, even if he's
using another distribution.

All the same, there's absolutely nothing debian-specific about this
matter, unless he suspects certain CD/DVD writer programs are more
likely to be more compatible with debian than others, or function
differently in a debian context :-)

In any case, this was just an example of one particular thread among
thousands that raise issues that are not debian-specific.

Hopefully, this will satisfy your curiosity. ;-)

CJ


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Neal Hogan]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 3:52 PM, Chris Jones  wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 04:10:35PM EDT, John Hasler wrote:
>> CJ writes:
>> > What exactly is on-topic to debian-user?
>>
>> The use of Debian.
>
> And therefore discussing _debian_ mailing-lists policy.
>

I'm curious . . . when you mention this are thinking of the many
threads involving rants about gmail, hotmaill, outlook, etc.,
reply-to-sender, reply-reply to list, etc.?

If so, in what sense are they debian issues (i.e., the distro you're running)?

> How does the choice of a CD/DVD writer program have anything to do with
> the distribution you are running?
>

It's an issue of (distro) supported devices . . . no?


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Chris Jones]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 04:10:35PM EDT, John Hasler wrote:
> CJ writes:
> > What exactly is on-topic to debian-user?
> 
> The use of Debian.

And therefore discussing _debian_ mailing-lists policy.

How does the choice of a CD/DVD writer program have anything to do with
the distribution you are running?

CJ


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[John Hasler]

CJ writes:
> What exactly is on-topic to debian-user?

The use of Debian.
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Chris Jones]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 01:06:02PM EDT, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> On Thu,15.Oct.09, 17:33:03, Tim Beauregard wrote:
> > I would like to propose a new list:
> > 
> > debian-digress...@lists.debian.org
> 
> There is an -offtopic list (check my sig), but it seems people insist on 
> having these discussions on the "main" list...

Though I agree that this particular 'discussion' does not lead anywhere,
I fail to see why list policy is less worthy of the debian-user list
than the original subject - recommendations for a CD/DVD writer program. 

Or are there CD/DVD writer programs that are more suitable when running
debian, rather than Gentoo, Slack, Fedora, Ubuntu..?

What exactly is on-topic to debian-user?

CJ




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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Andrei Popescu]

On Tue,13.Oct.09, 15:42:01, Mark Goldshtein wrote:
> 
> As a next step we will kindly ask an administration of the List to put
> it somewhere in FAQs for newcomers.

One un-official FAQ is this:
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#posting-munging

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Andrei Popescu]

On Thu,15.Oct.09, 17:33:03, Tim Beauregard wrote:
> I would like to propose a new list:
> 
> debian-digress...@lists.debian.org

There is an -offtopic list (check my sig), but it seems people insist on 
having these discussions on the "main" list...

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Tom H]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Tim Beauregard
 wrote:
> I would like to propose a new list:
> debian-digress...@lists.debian.org

:)))


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Tim Beauregard]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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I would like to propose a new list:

debian-digress...@lists.debian.org
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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

In , Lee Winter 
wrote:
>So I will happily comply with the policies of this list and send to
>"all" until sanity in the form of a sensible alternative evolves.

'sent to "all"' is not the list policy.  The list policy is documented 
: "When replying to 
messages on the mailing list, do not send a carbon copy (CC) to the original 
poster unless they explicitly request to be copied."

Anyone complaining about CCs on the list should also remember this bit from 
the CoC: "If you want to complain to someone who sent you a carbon copy when 
you did not ask for it, do it privately."
-- 
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b...@iguanasuicide.net   ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Stan Hoeppner]

Brian Marshall put forth on 10/14/2009 1:32 AM:
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 10:33:28AM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
>> I'm on T-Bird 2.0.0.23 (latest) and I don't have a reply-to-list option.
>>  Is this something I have to set manually in about:config?  Sure would
>> save me some time manually editing the recipient list with each reply.
> 
> It's only in Thunderbird 3 (not yet released), from what I've heard.

Thanks Brian.  I grabbed the add-on mentioned previously and it works
ok, although it has some limitations and slight lag, which although odd,
is not alarming.

By limitations I mean that if I have a message highlighted in one
folder, then right-click a message in another folder and select "reply
to list" from the drop down, the list address inserted into the compose
window is that of the previously selected email over in the other
folder, not the message I right clicked.  So, it seems the add-on script
relies on an assumption that one is "list replying" to only the
currently selected message.  Not necessarily a bad assumption, but not
all people work in a "serial" fashion.  I sometimes find myself reading
one message and finding useful information that applies to an unrelated
email in another folder.  So, I right click on that other message to
reply to the list with this new info I found, only to find the incorrect
list address inserted into the new message.  Like I said, a minor
limitation.  The add-on still saves me far more time than it costs me. ;)

--
Stan


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Brian Marshall]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 10:33:28AM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
> I'm on T-Bird 2.0.0.23 (latest) and I don't have a reply-to-list option.
>  Is this something I have to set manually in about:config?  Sure would
> save me some time manually editing the recipient list with each reply.

It's only in Thunderbird 3 (not yet released), from what I've heard.

Brian


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Neal Hogan]

My goodness! This and the other 50 threads on the same topic in the
last two months need to stop. Really! Some have problems with
receiving mail from certain providers. Others have problems with users
of providers that have "acceptable" features. Others just like to keep
threads like this going. I for one do not need to see another thread
about the manner in which users post to the list b/c it is futile.

Sure, sometimes noobs f things up. Yes, sometimes experienced users f
things up. Get over it or leave the list. This is NOT a debian issue!
Amazingly, questions are being "answered" despite the manner in which
they are asked.

  I understand that pet-peevs are difficult to  . . . ignore, but get
over it. Just the other day, the list lost a wonderful participant . .
. joeHill (moment of silence ;-)

Questions get asked . . . if they are asked in a manner in which you
approve and have something (possibly) to offer, then offer it . . .
otherwise, delete and move on. Subtlety has yet to work concerning
this issue. A continuous set of threads that address an issue that is
not going to change is  . . . well . . . less than advantageous to the
project. Free up some space for those who actually have issues that
can be taken care of.

If the delivery in which this *rant* was sent offended anyone . . . too bad!

Oh . . . Happy (belated) Columbus Day my fellow Americans!

-Neal


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[John Hasler]

Lee Winter writes:
> The fact that some people fear inadvertent embarassment does not
> justify the administrative imposition of rules to "protect" all users
> by eliminating options they would reasonably expect to have available.

You are the one asking for the administrative imposition of rules.  The
list software leaves the header lines alone.  You want it to change
them.  No options are being eliminated.  You are free to add whatever
"Reply-to:" line you see fit to your messages.
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Lee Winter]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Chris Jones  wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 01:09:22PM EDT, Lee Winter wrote:
>
> [..]
>
>> This is an excellent example of why there should not be a globally
>> defined policy denying the utility of potentially useful features.
>
> No global policy..? Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

Spending too much time looking in the mirror?

Almost everything you write was flat-out wrong. And couched in an
argumentative tone that appears to invite a flaming response.  You
would probably enjoy such a response because it would make you feel
superior.  Thing is, I'm a sadist, so it is my intention to deny you
that pleasure.  Please suffer my neglect of your need in silence.

The fact that some people fear inadvertent embarassment does not
justify the administrative imposition of rules to "protect" all users
by eliminating options they would reasonably expect to have available.

Are you going to bounce message due to bad spelling?  Or bad grammar?
They are also embarassing and far more frequent.  Just how far should
protecting the members of the community from their own errors go?
Personally, I neither need nor want such protection.  If you and
others like you want such protection you should implement it at your
end and not impose your prejudices upon the other members of the
community.

One thing you mentioned, or at least implied, is certainly worthwhile,
which is the fact the the responsibility for handling messaging lies
with the writer, not matter how stupid and short-sighted the policies
of the list admins might be and no matter how malformed the mail
reader software might be.

So I will happily comply with the policies of this list and send to
"all" until sanity in the form of a sensible alternative evolves.
After all, if your email software is too stupid to suppress duplicate
messages, perhaps you should upgrade to a more reader-friendly
application instead of forcing everyojne else to change their behavior
to accomodate to the defects in your mail handling app.

Duplicatively,

Lee Winter
NP Engineering
Nashua, New Hampshire


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Chris Jones]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 06:21:21PM EDT, ghe wrote:
>
> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Chris Jones wrote:

[..]

> Or you could get procmail to add a Reply-To to incoming Debian list  
> email.

Naturally.. let them do their own munging.

[..]

CJ


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[ghe]

On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Chris Jones wrote:


The crux of this issue is that as usual the M$ MUA does not do things
right and as a result a slew of mailing list providers started messing
up their headers to accomadate _them_

And a host of so-called GNU/linux MUA's followed suit.

Two wrongs don't make a right.


Debian is different from other software collections in a number of  
ways. When you have to futz with email addressing to the list, just  
think about how nice it is that all your configs are in /etc.


Or you could get procmail to add a Reply-To to incoming Debian list  
email.


Or if you replyToAll, you could just delete the address in the To: box.

It's just not all that tough...

(You can also get procmail to route the rest of this thread to the bit  
bucket.)


--
Glenn English
g...@slsware.com




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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Lisi]

On Tuesday 13 October 2009 22:31:20 Chris Jones wrote:
> The crux of this issue is that as usual the M$ MUA does not do things
> right and as a result a slew of mailing list providers started messing
> up their headers to accomadate _them_
>
> And a host of so-called GNU/linux MUA's followed suit.

I only know of Thunderbird/Icedove prior to version 3.  I should be interested 
to know of others, so I know what else to avoid!

Lisi


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Chris Jones]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 01:09:22PM EDT, Lee Winter wrote:

[..]

> This is an excellent example of why there should not be a globally
> defined policy denying the utility of potentially useful features.

No global policy..? Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

What do you recommend? 

A policy that is user-specific is not a policy.

> While this poster has _personal_ experience that influences his
> preferences, others may have a different experiential context, and
> thus have a diferent preference.

Nothing _personal_ about it. 

Dave Sherohman posted a crystal-clear explanation - not once, mind you,
he had to do it twice  - of why what you call a "useful feature" is a
nasty trap.

Does he have to post it a third time?

> If Reply-To is available then users are able to exercise choice is
> using it or not.  If Reply-To is not available due to some Ex-Cathedra
> policy decision then user's choices are eliminated.

Feel free to set up your own debian-user-II mailing list where you will
have all latitude to have some user committee define the policy.  

Good luck.

> I suggest that it is not the place authors of mail readers nor of
> mailing list administrators to make user's choices for them, or worse,
> prohibit them from exercising choice at all.

Do you mean that when he/she susbscribes, the user also fill out a form
defining his personal technical "choices" of how the list should be
implemented?

When you set up an internet connection, are you given the option of
specifying the "useful features" that you would prefer to implement in
lieu of the IP standard?

> Consider an email UI that offered the following choices:
> - reply to sender (only)
> - reply to list (only)
> - reply to all

Consider _not_ using any mailer that does not offer these choices,
period. And make sure you tell your friends about it.

> This would appear to make it possible for the user to establish a
> default preference and selectively override it as necessary.
> 
> If such a UI were commonly available, how would that hurt the
> community of  mailing list members?

Not sure what you mean by "commonly available" .. but mutt certainly
gives you all three options.

The crux of this issue is that as usual the M$ MUA does not do things
right and as a result a slew of mailing list providers started messing
up their headers to accomadate _them_

And a host of so-called GNU/linux MUA's followed suit.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

CJ


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Lisi]

On Tuesday 13 October 2009 18:09:22 Lee Winter wrote:
> Consider an email UI that offered the following choices:
>     - reply to sender (only)
>     - reply to list (only)
>     - reply to all
> This would appear to make it possible for the user to establish a
> default preference and selectively override it as necessary.

Like KMail you mean?


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Celejar]

On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:12:04 -0500
Gaspar Núñez  wrote:

> i apologize for not having started a new thread
> (i thouhgt i was doing that)
> i'll try to find out how (any direction is welcomed)

A new thread is started by simply composing and sending a mail to the
list address, not replying to an existing list message.  Subject is
irrelevant to real threading.

Celejar
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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

On Tuesday 13 October 2009 12:09:22 Lee Winter wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Chris Jones  wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 04:21:40AM EDT, Terence wrote:
> >> 2009/10/13 Dave Sherohman :
> >> > The position I was trying to explain in my earlier message was that,
> >> > even though 99% of replies to mailing list messages are intended to
> >> > go to the list, directing an intended-private message to the list
> >> > causes over 100 times more harm than a message intended for the list
> >> > being inadvertently made private.  The Debian list policy is,
> >> > therefore, reasonable, because it minimizes the overall total harm
> >> > caused by misdirected messages.
> >>
> >> Well said. I think that about covers it.
>
> Not quite.
>
> > I have personally experienced the embarrassment of such situations on a
> > couple of occasions, and counted my blessings that there was nothing
> > sensitive in these messages.
>
> Consider an email UI that offered the following choices:
> - reply to sender (only)
> - reply to list (only)
> - reply to all
> This would appear to make it possible for the user to establish a
> default preference and selectively override it as necessary.
>
> If such a UI were commonly available, how would that hurt the
> community of  mailing list members?

KMail has a similar interface, which is enabled by the List-* headers and the 
lack of a Reply-To header on most list emails.

KMail's "Reply to Author" goes to the From address, unless the author has 
specified a Reply-To address, then it goes there.

KMail's "Reply to Mailing-List" goes to the mailing list address, gleaned from 
the List-* headers.  It might be dependent on having used "Folder -> Mailing 
List Management..." on the current folder though, I'm not sure.

KMail's "Reply to All" goes to any address listed in multiple headers.

I'm not actually sure what Kmail's plain "Reply" does, although it seems to 
generally do the right thing for most lists I've been on.

If your client of choice does not support the List-* headers, the place to 
complain is not here.
-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
b...@iguanasuicide.net  ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Chris Jones]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 08:03:50AM EDT, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> On Ter, 13 Out 2009, Rakotomandimby Mihamina wrote:
>> 10/12/2009 03:44 PM, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI:

>>> Thunderbird by default does not have that feature, even under Linux
>>
>> You are wrong.
>
> Really? Because all the Thunderbirds/Icedoves I've used never had this
> feature.
>
> Thunderbird 3 is reported to have a built-in Reply to List (finally),
> but it's not been officially released yet (it's still in beta phase)
> and is not available on Debian repositories.

Yes it does. 

Hopefully, they won't remove the feature when they go stable ;-)

CJ


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Gaspar Núñez]

i apologize for not having started a new thread
(i thouhgt i was doing that)
i'll try to find out how (any direction is welcomed)

thanks for the tip to check  goodby-microsoft

gaspar



On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. <
b...@iguanasuicide.net> wrote:

> On Tuesday 13 October 2009 10:44:22 Gaspar Núñez wrote:
> > i´m trying to change from windows to a free OS
> > and i'd like to try Debian
> > however
> >
> > i've dowloaded several times dvds 1 and 2
> > (debian-503-i386-DVD-1.iso and debian-503-i386-DVD-2.iso)
> > but when i check the md5 sum the codes never match
>
> Your OS, file system, or file transfer client may have issues with files
> over
> 2GiB or 4GiB.  You might want to try the application available from
> .
> --
> Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
> b...@iguanasuicide.net   ((_/)o o(\_))
> ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
> http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/
>
>


-- 
Gaspar

Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Lee Winter]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Chris Jones  wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 04:21:40AM EDT, Terence wrote:
>> 2009/10/13 Dave Sherohman :
>
>> > The position I was trying to explain in my earlier message was that,
>> > even though 99% of replies to mailing list messages are intended to
>> > go to the list, directing an intended-private message to the list
>> > causes over 100 times more harm than a message intended for the list
>> > being inadvertently made private.  The Debian list policy is,
>> > therefore, reasonable, because it minimizes the overall total harm
>> > caused by misdirected messages.
>> >
>> 
>> >
>>
>> Well said. I think that about covers it.

Not quite.

>
> +1
>
> I have personally experienced the embarrassment of such situations on a
> couple of occasions, and counted my blessings that there was nothing
> sensitive in these messages.

This is an excellent example of why there should not be a globally
defined policy denying the utility of potentially useful features.

While this poster has _personal_ experience that influences his
preferences, others may have a different experiential context, and
thus have a diferent preference.

If Reply-To is available then users are able to exercise choice is
using it or not.  If Reply-To is not available due to some Ex-Cathedra
policy decision then user's choices are eliminated.

I suggest that it is not the place authors of mail readers nor of
mailing list administrators to make user's choices for them, or worse,
prohibit them from exercising choice at all.

Consider an email UI that offered the following choices:
- reply to sender (only)
- reply to list (only)
- reply to all
This would appear to make it possible for the user to establish a
default preference and selectively override it as necessary.

If such a UI were commonly available, how would that hurt the
community of  mailing list members?

-- Lee


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Sjoerd Hiemstra]

Op Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:33:28 -0500 Stan Hoeppner wrote:
> I'm on T-Bird 2.0.0.23 (latest) and I don't have a reply-to-list
> option. Is this something I have to set manually in about:config?
> Sure would save me some time manually editing the recipient list with
> each reply.

For T-Bird/Icedove there is a 'Reply to Mailing List' add-on.
It adds a 'reply to mailing list' button to your toolbar and the message
menu.


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[go...@dobosevic.com]

I'm on T-Bird 2.0.0.23 (latest) and I don't have a reply-to-list option.
 Is this something I have to set manually in about:config?  Sure would
save me some time manually editing the recipient list with each reply.

--
Stan



Here it is: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/4455

--
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Goran Dobosevic
Hrvatski: www.dobosevic.com
 English: www.dobosevic.com/en/


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Chris Jones]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 04:21:40AM EDT, Terence wrote:
> 2009/10/13 Dave Sherohman :

> > The position I was trying to explain in my earlier message was that,
> > even though 99% of replies to mailing list messages are intended to
> > go to the list, directing an intended-private message to the list
> > causes over 100 times more harm than a message intended for the list
> > being inadvertently made private.  The Debian list policy is,
> > therefore, reasonable, because it minimizes the overall total harm
> > caused by misdirected messages.
> >
> 
> >
> 
> Well said. I think that about covers it.

+1 

I have personally experienced the embarrassment of such situations on a
couple of occasions, and counted my blessings that there was nothing
sensitive in these messages.

Pity there's no equivalent of the Acid3 test to rate the conformance
of MUA's - might encourage their authors to fix the _real_ problem.

Quite frankly, considering that email is potentially a dangerous
activity, I would not feel comfortable entrusting my public or private
correpondance on a daily basis to software that's unable to implement
such basic functionality as 'reply-to-list'.

CJ



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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Thierry Chatelet]

On Tuesday 13 October 2009 17:44:22 Gaspar Núñez wrote:
> hi
> 
> i´m trying to change from windows to a free OS
> and i'd like to try Debian
> however i´m having some problems to install it
> and the packages that i need to do my work
> 
> right know i would appreciate some help on the following:
> 
> i've dowloaded several times dvds 1 and 2
> (debian-503-i386-DVD-1.iso and debian-503-i386-DVD-2.iso)
> but when i check the md5 sum the codes never match
> 
> thanks
> 
> 
> Gaspar
> 

Hi newbie,
As already said you should start a new thread sending to the list a new mail 
with a good subject description.
Welcome to debian community, and we are waiting to help you on a new thread.
Thierry


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[OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Stan Hoeppner]

Celejar put forth on 10/13/2009 10:26 AM:
> On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:01:23 -0500
> Dave Sherohman  wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
>> better email client".  I know mutt supports reply-to-list (I'm using
>> it right now) and I'm pretty sure I've seen people here saying that
>> Thunderbird supports it natively in the latest version (and with a
>> plugin in earlier versions).  A couple others have also been
>> mentioned, though their names elude me at the moment.

I'm on T-Bird 2.0.0.23 (latest) and I don't have a reply-to-list option.
 Is this something I have to set manually in about:config?  Sure would
save me some time manually editing the recipient list with each reply.

--
Stan


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

On Tuesday 13 October 2009 10:44:22 Gaspar Núñez wrote:
> i´m trying to change from windows to a free OS
> and i'd like to try Debian
> however
>
> i've dowloaded several times dvds 1 and 2
> (debian-503-i386-DVD-1.iso and debian-503-i386-DVD-2.iso)
> but when i check the md5 sum the codes never match

Your OS, file system, or file transfer client may have issues with files over 
2GiB or 4GiB.  You might want to try the application available from 
.
-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
b...@iguanasuicide.net  ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Klistvud]

Dne, 13. 10. 2009 17:44:22 je Gaspar Núñez napisal(a):
> hi
> 
> i´m trying to change from windows to a free OS
> and i'd like to try Debian
> however i´m having some problems to install it
> and the packages that i need to do my work
> 
> right know i would appreciate some help on the following:
> 
> i've dowloaded several times dvds 1 and 2
> (debian-503-i386-DVD-1.iso and debian-503-i386-DVD-2.iso)
> but when i check the md5 sum the codes never match
> 
> thanks
> 
> 
> Gaspar
> 

I'd reccommend downloading them with a BitTorrent client - BT is a 
pretty robust protocol.

Good Luck!

-- 
Certifiable Loonix User #481801


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Celejar]

On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:33:28 -0500
Stan Hoeppner  wrote:

> Celejar put forth on 10/13/2009 10:26 AM:
> > On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:01:23 -0500
> > Dave Sherohman  wrote:
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> >> better email client".  I know mutt supports reply-to-list (I'm
> >> using it right now) and I'm pretty sure I've seen people here
> >> saying that Thunderbird supports it natively in the latest version
> >> (and with a plugin in earlier versions).  A couple others have
> >> also been mentioned, though their names elude me at the moment.

Please trim more carefully; nothing above was said by me.  [My reply
has been trimmed.]

Celejar
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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Celejar]

On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:44:22 -0500
Gaspar Núñez  wrote:

> hi
> 
> i´m trying to change from windows to a free OS

Please create a new thread for new questions, and don't start a new
topic by replying to an existing one with unrelated material.

Celejar
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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Gaspar Núñez]

hi

i´m trying to change from windows to a free OS
and i'd like to try Debian
however i´m having some problems to install it
and the packages that i need to do my work

right know i would appreciate some help on the following:

i've dowloaded several times dvds 1 and 2
(debian-503-i386-DVD-1.iso and debian-503-i386-DVD-2.iso)
but when i check the md5 sum the codes never match

thanks


Gaspar

Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Celejar]

On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:01:23 -0500
Dave Sherohman  wrote:

...

> better email client".  I know mutt supports reply-to-list (I'm using
> it right now) and I'm pretty sure I've seen people here saying that
> Thunderbird supports it natively in the latest version (and with a
> plugin in earlier versions).  A couple others have also been
> mentioned, though their names elude me at the moment.

Sylpheed!

Celejar
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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[S. Fishpaste]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 17:10:40 -0700, Consultores in gmane.linux.debian.user 
wrote:
> El lun, 12-10-2009 a las 07:28 -0500, green escribió:
>> Paul E Condon wrote at 2009-10-11 22:27 -0500:
>> > I think your position is analogous to that of an American tourist in Paris
>> > who gets all bent out of shape because everyone is talking in French and
>> > pretending to understand each other. ;-)
>> 
>> Great analogy!
>
> Except by "American", in Quebec, people speak French! : )

Absolutely, I should know living in the captial of Upper Canada. ;-D


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On Ter, 13 Out 2009, Mark Goldshtein wrote:

Yes, you are sounding so reasonable. As a final accord, would you,
please, to post an instruction how to tune up GMail web client to use
'List Reply' field in messages?


That's unfortunately not possible, because Gmail does not have this  
feature. And I've not found a third party modification to include it  
in Gmail. But I didn't check extensively.


Gmail users could request the feature in Gmail support. If a couple  
million users ask for the feature, it might someday be implemented. In  
the meanwhile, the best solution is to use 'Reply All' and erase other  
e-mails, leaving only the list one.




--
Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.
-- Wernher von Braun

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On Ter, 13 Out 2009, Rakotomandimby Mihamina wrote:

10/12/2009 03:44 PM, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI:

Thunderbird by default does not have that feature, even under Linux


You are wrong.


Really? Because all the Thunderbirds/Icedoves I've used never had this  
feature.


Thunderbird 3 is reported to have a built-in Reply to List (finally),  
but it's not been officially released yet (it's still in beta phase)  
and is not available on Debian repositories.



--
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-- Eugene Ionesco

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Christer Oldhoff]

Hello Mark,

On 2009-10-13, Mark Goldshtein wrote:

> [...]
> Yes, you are sounding so reasonable. As a final accord, would you,
> please, to post an instruction how to tune up GMail web client to use
>
Sorry, I do not know how to do that since I have never used GMail. 

I read and post to the list from an old AMIGA with AMIGA-OS
and mail client YAM featuring mailing list support 
=> no problems with Reply-To: field.

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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Mark Goldshtein]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Christer Oldhoff  wrote:
> Hello Dave,
>
> On 2009-10-13, Dave Sherohman wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> The position I was trying to explain in my earlier message was that,
>> even though 99% of replies to mailing list messages are intended to go
>> to the list, directing an intended-private message to the list causes
>> over 100 times more harm than a message intended for the list being
>> inadvertently made private.  The Debian list policy is, therefore,
>> reasonable, because it minimizes the overall total harm caused by
>> misdirected messages.
>>
> I completely agree with You!
>
> My wife hosts a mailing list for scientists, and although most of the
> subscribers have a 'Dr.' or 'Ph.D.' in their title, messages from the
> list are repeatedly replied to as if they came from private email addresses.
>
> The list is usually monitored, and there is a lot of work to weed out
> private messages. Despite repeated detailed explanations of why these things
> happen, some people keep doing it wrong again and again...
>
> Now, sometimes, the list is left to run unmonitored and then it can get
> really wild:
> Apart from harmless accounts about personal experiences, travel itineraries,
> and family matters, there have been cases of subscribers unknowingly posting
> their credit card details to the list, which is a serious problem, since 
> anyone
> can read the list messages.
>
> So, the list policy is sound.

Yes, you are sounding so reasonable. As a final accord, would you,
please, to post an instruction how to tune up GMail web client to use
'List Reply' field in messages?

As a next step we will kindly ask an administration of the List to put
it somewhere in FAQs for newcomers.

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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Christer Oldhoff]

Hello Dave,

On 2009-10-13, Dave Sherohman wrote:

> [...]
> The position I was trying to explain in my earlier message was that,
> even though 99% of replies to mailing list messages are intended to go
> to the list, directing an intended-private message to the list causes
> over 100 times more harm than a message intended for the list being
> inadvertently made private.  The Debian list policy is, therefore,
> reasonable, because it minimizes the overall total harm caused by
> misdirected messages.
>
I completely agree with You!

My wife hosts a mailing list for scientists, and although most of the 
subscribers have a 'Dr.' or 'Ph.D.' in their title, messages from the
list are repeatedly replied to as if they came from private email addresses.

The list is usually monitored, and there is a lot of work to weed out
private messages. Despite repeated detailed explanations of why these things
happen, some people keep doing it wrong again and again...

Now, sometimes, the list is left to run unmonitored and then it can get 
really wild:
Apart from harmless accounts about personal experiences, travel itineraries,
and family matters, there have been cases of subscribers unknowingly posting 
their credit card details to the list, which is a serious problem, since anyone 
can read the list messages.

So, the list policy is sound.

Regards,
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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Dave Sherohman]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 07:23:30AM +0400, Mark Goldshtein wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 1:17 PM, Dave Sherohman  wrote:
> > Granted, for most lists, the substantial majority of replies are
> > intended to go to the list, but the greater degree of harm caused by
> > inadvertently publicizing private information is, I believe, large
> > enough that the average harm-per-reply (i.e., expected harm from a
> > mis-send times the odds of a mis-send) is still lower without setting
> > reply-to.
> >
> > I'm not a list admin here, but that seems to me like a pretty good
> > reason for the current policy.
> 
> Still see no reason not to have Debian Mailing List in 'Reply-To'
> field. People who subscribed to public mailing list undoubtedly almost
> in 100% cases want to reply to that mailing list, not to the original
> authors. Is that not reasonable?

The position I was trying to explain in my earlier message was that,
even though 99% of replies to mailing list messages are intended to go
to the list, directing an intended-private message to the list causes
over 100 times more harm than a message intended for the list being
inadvertently made private.  The Debian list policy is, therefore,
reasonable, because it minimizes the overall total harm caused by
misdirected messages.

Reasonable people can (and clearly do) disagree, but that's why I favor
maintaining the Debian list policy of not injecting Reply-To: headers.
My main point, really, was just that the current policy is not merely a
case of "being as mule-headed as possible about this, for no good
reason, RFCs-be-damned."  There are actual reasons behind it, even
though some may not agree with them.


That said, some other posts in this thread have mentioned a tendency of
d-u members to become irate when replies are sent with 'reply-to-all'
and they receive two copies of the response, one privately and one via
the list.  This does strike me as unreasonable, particularly given that
so many people continue to use broken email clients that don't provide a
reply-to-list function.  Although dual-replying is marginally
inefficient, it's ultimately benign, easily ignored, and, if it really
bugs you that much, I've seen many procmail recipes posted here for
filtering them out automatically.  There's no reason to get on anyone's
case for using reply-to-all.

-- 
Dave Sherohman


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Terence]

2009/10/13 Dave Sherohman :

> The position I was trying to explain in my earlier message was that,
> even though 99% of replies to mailing list messages are intended to go
> to the list, directing an intended-private message to the list causes
> over 100 times more harm than a message intended for the list being
> inadvertently made private.  The Debian list policy is, therefore,
> reasonable, because it minimizes the overall total harm caused by
> misdirected messages.
>

>

Well said. I think that about covers it.

Terence


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Rakotomandimby Mihamina]

10/12/2009 03:44 PM, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI:

Thunderbird by default does not have that feature, even under Linux


You are wrong.

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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Dave Sherohman]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:29:57PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> It is semi-on-topic for this list to discuss work-arounds for Debian-provided 
> clients, most of which boil down to using Reply-To-All and then editing the 
> To/Cc lines to match list policy.

Actually, I'd say that the majority of suggestions boil down to "use a
better email client".  I know mutt supports reply-to-list (I'm using it
right now) and I'm pretty sure I've seen people here saying that
Thunderbird supports it natively in the latest version (and with a
plugin in earlier versions).  A couple others have also been mentioned,
though their names elude me at the moment.

"Use reply-to-all and edit to/cc" seems to be the fallback position for
when the person who doesn't like the way the list works says they
can't/won't switch clients.

-- 
Dave Sherohman


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

In <4ede8f490910122106s3b375edj982554f6a7b3b...@mail.gmail.com>, Vinicius 
Massuchetto wrote:
>On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Tom H  wrote:
>> Non-Debian lists do not behave this way. Choosing "reply" is set to
>> send an email back to the list - even on sun-managers where the policy
>> is to reply off-list and have the OP post a summary.
>
>Actually, this mailing list is the only one I know that behaves this
>way. And I can't see too much sense on some defenses of this behavior
>based on technicalities.
>
>If some people complain from time to time, why this doesn't mean anything?

It it was the other way, different people (myself for one) would complain, on 
both technical AND ease-of-use grounds.  The final arbiter would be the 
mailing list administrators, who can be reached via mail.  (I believe I posted 
their address earlier, it can also be found on the Debian website.)  It is 
unlikely for the list to change, but it definitely won't without their input.

The List-* headers have been around for more then a decade.  Since then, the 
RFCs were clarified to indicate the Reply-To field is only for the author's 
use.  Summary , 
including equal time for the best argument for adding/altering the Reply-To 
field.

The place to complain about your client (web or otherwise) not supporting 
those headers is said client's vendor, not this list.  Even for software 
provided by Debian, this list is not appropriate for getting the issue 
resolved; the Debian BTS is (wishlist priority).

It is semi-on-topic for this list to discuss work-arounds for Debian-provided 
clients, most of which boil down to using Reply-To-All and then editing the 
To/Cc lines to match list policy. (BTW, the policy is for *users* not 
*clients*.)
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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Vinicius Massuchetto]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Tom H  wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Lisi  wrote:
>> On Monday 12 October 2009 01:05:27 Mark Allums wrote:

[...]

> Non-Debian lists do not behave this way. Choosing "reply" is set to
> send an email back to the list - even on sun-managers where the policy
> is to reply off-list and have the OP post a summary.

Actually, this mailing list is the only one I know that behaves this
way. And I can't see too much sense on some defenses of this behavior
based on technicalities.

If some people complain from time to time, why this doesn't mean anything?

--
Vinicius Massuchetto
http://vinicius.soylocoporti.org.br


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Mark Goldshtein]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Rakotomandimby Mihamina
 wrote:
> 10/12/2009 02:54 PM, Lisi:

 And don't tell me to use some Thunderbird extension of dubious
 provenance.
>>>
>>> Thunderbird 3, Evolution, Claws,.. has it (reply-to-list) bilt-in.
>>
>> So has KMail.
>
> Yep, I just forgot.
> But some insists for Microsoft "tools"

If I name it correct, this is a 'Debian _User_ Mailing List'. Should I
post here the most "user-friendly" platforms, from which _users_ may
come?

And AFAIR, this talk is mostly focused on web mail clients, like GMail
for example.

As about List administrators, I think it is time to reveal a magical
howto about GMail tuning to recognize 'List replay' field. Please,
reveal it and nail it somewhere in FAQs.

Thanks in advance!

-- 
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Mark Goldshtein


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Mark Goldshtein]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 1:17 PM, Dave Sherohman  wrote:
> Granted, for most lists, the substantial majority of replies are
> intended to go to the list, but the greater degree of harm caused by
> inadvertently publicizing private information is, I believe, large
> enough that the average harm-per-reply (i.e., expected harm from a
> mis-send times the odds of a mis-send) is still lower without setting
> reply-to.
>
> I'm not a list admin here, but that seems to me like a pretty good
> reason for the current policy.

Still see no reason not to have Debian Mailing List in 'Reply-To'
field. People who subscribed to public mailing list undoubtedly almost
in 100% cases want to reply to that mailing list, not to the original
authors. Is that not reasonable? By the way, a "standard" which
lurking around here, does not restrict that.

I think the main reason here is what the list owners see and want the
list this way. I am absolutely OK with that but please, do not cover a
typical geek behavior with a "standard" or something.

IMHO a short notice about all this mailing policy in subscribers note
will be fine. If there will be an instruction how to set up popular
web clients (like GMail) it will be excellent.

-- 
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Mark Goldshtein


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Consultores]

El lun, 12-10-2009 a las 07:28 -0500, green escribió:
> Paul E Condon wrote at 2009-10-11 22:27 -0500:
> > I think your position is analogous to that of an American tourist in Paris
> > who gets all bent out of shape because everyone is talking in French and
> > pretending to understand each other. ;-)
> 
> Great analogy!

Except by "American", in Quebec, people speak French! : )



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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Tim Tebbit]

I'm pretty late to this. I myself post though gmane so by default I only
reply to the list, technically gmane.linux.debian.user.

However, this being a users list, I think that a majority of opinions or
preference from users should dictate how the list works. Who holds the
gavel?


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Tom H]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 1:07 AM, Brian Marshall  wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 04:03:42PM +0200, Tom H wrote:
>> In order to reply to the list, I choose "reply" and change the "to"
>> field to "debian-user...".

>> I assume that some people choose "reply to all" and it makes others
>> unnecessarily angry about receiving two identical emails.

>> Non-Debian lists do not behave this way. Choosing "reply" is set to
>> send an email back to the list - even on sun-managers where the policy
>> is to reply off-list and have the OP post a summary.

> I am not subscribed to many lists, but the behavior on debian-user,
> mutt-user and pidgin-support are identical. There's no header munging to
> force replies to the list. So I'm not sure where the idea that Debian
> lists are the only ones on the Internet that behave this way came from.

> Also, you mention that most people choose "reply to all," but your
> solution requires people to use "reply." How will that help if most
> people use "reply to all"?

The other lists that I subscribe to do not behave this - and quite
frankly I do not care. I have forgotten about the behaviour of
debian-user a couple of times and replied to the poster only; not a
problem.

If you "reply to all" the list is cc'd...


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Brian Marshall]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 04:03:42PM +0200, Tom H wrote:
> In order to reply to the list, I choose "reply" and change the "to"
> field to "debian-user...".
> 
> I assume that some people choose "reply to all" and it makes others
> unnecessarily angry about receiving two identical emails.
> 
> Non-Debian lists do not behave this way. Choosing "reply" is set to
> send an email back to the list - even on sun-managers where the policy
> is to reply off-list and have the OP post a summary.

I am not subscribed to many lists, but the behavior on debian-user,
mutt-user and pidgin-support are identical. There's no header munging to
force replies to the list. So I'm not sure where the idea that Debian
lists are the only ones on the Internet that behave this way came from.

Also, you mention that most people choose "reply to all," but your
solution requires people to use "reply." How will that help if most
people use "reply to all"?

Brian


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Tom H]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Lisi  wrote:
> On Monday 12 October 2009 15:03:42 Tom H wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Lisi  wrote:
>>> On Monday 12 October 2009 01:05:27 Mark Allums wrote:
 In this, I feel I'm in the majority, here, of people who feel Debian is
 being a bit unnecessarily stubborn.

>>> On what do you base this strange assertion?  I would have said the
>>> reverse. Some figures, please!

>> In order to reply to the list, I choose "reply" and change the "to"
>> field to "debian-user...".

>> I assume that some people choose "reply to all" and it makes others
>> unnecessarily angry about receiving two identical emails.

>> Non-Debian lists do not behave this way. Choosing "reply" is set to
>> send an email back to the list - even on sun-managers where the policy
>> is to reply off-list and have the OP post a summary.

> That in no way replies to what I said.  It was his statistics I was querying,
> and I still do.

> I just have the folder reply set to "reply to list".  I would have said that
> that, or something similar, was true of the majority of debian users, tho'
> patently not all, and equally patently I too have no real evidence.

> So, I repeat: on what do (you and) he base the assertion that the majority of
> those on this list agree with you?

He is extrapolating, rightly or wrongly regarding "majority" and
opining regarding "stubbornness".

I was simply seconding his claim that this list is set up differently
from others in respect of the "reply" feature.

I use the gmail web interface. There is no "reply to list" option or
"folder reply" setting - although I am going to check whether there is
a "label reply" setting (thanks for the idea)...


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[S. Fishpaste]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 07:28:58 -0500, green in gmane.linux.debian.user wrote:
>
> --dXvu6+ixFx2ZffE8
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> Content-Disposition: inline
>
> Paul E Condon wrote at 2009-10-11 22:27 -0500:
>> I think your position is analogous to that of an American tourist in Paris
>> who gets all bent out of shape because everyone is talking in French and
>> pretending to understand each other. ;-)
>
> Great analogy!

Indeed, made me nod my head in agreement.


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Lisi]

On Monday 12 October 2009 15:03:42 Tom H wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Lisi  wrote:
> > On Monday 12 October 2009 01:05:27 Mark Allums wrote:
> >> In this, I feel I'm in the majority, here, of people who feel Debian is
> >> being a bit unnecessarily stubborn.
> >
> > On what do you base this strange assertion?  I would have said the
> > reverse. Some figures, please!
>
> In order to reply to the list, I choose "reply" and change the "to"
> field to "debian-user...".
>
> I assume that some people choose "reply to all" and it makes others
> unnecessarily angry about receiving two identical emails.
>
> Non-Debian lists do not behave this way. Choosing "reply" is set to
> send an email back to the list - even on sun-managers where the policy
> is to reply off-list and have the OP post a summary.

That in no way replies to what I said.  It was his statistics I was querying, 
and I still do.

I just have the folder reply set to "reply to list".  I would have said that 
that, or something similar, was true of the majority of debian users, tho' 
patently not all, and equally patently I too have no real evidence.

So, I repeat: on what do (you and) he base the assertion that the majority of 
those on this list agree with you?

Lisi


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Tom H]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Lisi  wrote:
> On Monday 12 October 2009 01:05:27 Mark Allums wrote:
>> In this, I feel I'm in the majority, here, of people who feel Debian is
>> being a bit unnecessarily stubborn.

> On what do you base this strange assertion?  I would have said the reverse.
> Some figures, please!

In order to reply to the list, I choose "reply" and change the "to"
field to "debian-user...".

I assume that some people choose "reply to all" and it makes others
unnecessarily angry about receiving two identical emails.

Non-Debian lists do not behave this way. Choosing "reply" is set to
send an email back to the list - even on sun-managers where the policy
is to reply off-list and have the OP post a summary.


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

Chris Jones wrote:
> I didn't follow this thread, so I'm not sure what you are referring to,
> but are you requesting debian amend their mailing list policy to
> accomodate M$ Windows users?

No, he's suggesting to use a Reply-To header pointing to the list
address to accommodate users running mail clients without a Reply to
List feature, no matter which OS they use. Thunderbird by default does
not have that feature, even under Linux (there's an extension to add the
functionality, but for me it only worked after another extension was
installed - not a trivial thing to discover), and there are many webmail
services without the feature, no matter which browser and which OS the
user may be running.

-- 
It seems to make an auto driver mad if he misses you.

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[green]

Paul E Condon wrote at 2009-10-11 22:27 -0500:
> I think your position is analogous to that of an American tourist in Paris
> who gets all bent out of shape because everyone is talking in French and
> pretending to understand each other. ;-)

Great analogy!


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Rakotomandimby Mihamina]

10/12/2009 02:54 PM, Lisi:

And don't tell me to use some Thunderbird extension of dubious
provenance.

Thunderbird 3, Evolution, Claws,.. has it (reply-to-list) bilt-in.

So has KMail.


Yep, I just forgot.
But some insists for Microsoft "tools"

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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Lisi]

On Monday 12 October 2009 12:20:13 Rakotomandimby Mihamina wrote:
> 10/11/2009 02:28 PM, Mark Allums:
> > And don't tell me to use some Thunderbird extension of dubious
> > provenance.
>
> Thunderbird 3, Evolution, Claws,.. has it (reply-to-list) bilt-in.

So has KMail.

Lisi


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Rakotomandimby Mihamina]

10/11/2009 02:28 PM, Mark Allums:

And don't tell me to use some Thunderbird extension of dubious
provenance.


Thunderbird 3, Evolution, Claws,.. has it (reply-to-list) bilt-in.
Use it.

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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Lisi]

On Monday 12 October 2009 01:05:27 Mark Allums wrote:
> In this, I feel I'm in the majority, here, of people who feel Debian is
> being a bit unnecessarily stubborn.

On what do you base this strange assertion?  I would have said the reverse.

Some figures, please!

Lisi


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Dave Sherohman]

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 06:28:29AM -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> The fact that so many people have a problem with this should tell the  
> maintainers something.  They are being as mule-headed as possible about  
> this, for no good reason, RFCs-be-damned.

Am I correct to infer from your final clause that you are aware of some
RFC which states that mailing lists SHOULD or MUST add reply-to headers
directing responses back to the list?  If so, please cite the RFC number
and/or provide a link to it, as I am aware of no such RFC.

> And sometimes I forget.  I have to remember two behaviors for different  
> lists.  I'm not young anymore.  No one should get POed at anyone else  
> for not changing the addressing, because we may not be able to do better.

Sometimes I forget, too.  I'm sure everyone does.  That's human nature.

So what happens when someone forgets?  With reply-to set to direct
responses back to the list, a response which was intended to be private
becomes public.  With no reply-to, a response which was intended to be
public becomes private.

Perhaps your experiences have been different than mine, but, as I see
it, publicizing something intended to be private is very likely to cause
harm, and this harm may be rather substantial.  (Sending a closed
project bid to your competitors, distributing your home phone number to
all of d-u's thousands of subscribers, etc.)  Sending a reply privately
that was intended to go to the list is unlikely to do any more than
cause minor annoyance.  (Re-send it to the list and you get the original
intended effect with no harm done beyond the embarassment of messing it
up and the initial recipient seeing it twice.)

Granted, for most lists, the substantial majority of replies are
intended to go to the list, but the greater degree of harm caused by
inadvertently publicizing private information is, I believe, large
enough that the average harm-per-reply (i.e., expected harm from a
mis-send times the odds of a mis-send) is still lower without setting
reply-to.

I'm not a list admin here, but that seems to me like a pretty good
reason for the current policy.

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Dave Sherohman


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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Paul E Condon]

On 20091011_190527, Mark Allums wrote:
> Chris Jones wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 07:28:29AM EDT, Mark Allums wrote:
>>
>>> The policy should be changed.
>>
>>> And don't tell me to use some Thunderbird extension of dubious
>>> provenance. I might not use Thunderbird, or I'm on Windows for email
>>
>> [..]
>>
>> I didn't follow this thread, so I'm not sure what you are referring to,
>> but are you requesting debian amend their mailing list policy to
>> accomodate M$ Windows users?
>>
>> CJ
>
>
> Well, in a manner of speaking, yes.  You don't have to be either a genius 
> or a crackpot to be able to come up with reasonable situations where 
> someone might be forced to use Windows for mail.  Why should they be made 
> to suffer when everyone in the Wide Green World but Debian does it 
> another, more reasonable way?
>
> Of course, I suspect I know your retort already, from the way you spell  
> Microsoft.  Microsoft is somewhat evil, yes, but not all users of their  
> products are.  Debian is about freedom, yes? not punishing the poor slobs 
> who are stuck with Exchange (for instance) and have no recourse.
>
> In this, I feel I'm in the majority, here, of people who feel Debian is  
> being a bit unnecessarily stubborn.
>
> If the devs need it set the way it is, with no munging the Reply-to  
> header, then, fine.  Let them do that for the devs and maintainers.  
> Compromise a little and set the user list the way users expect it.  No  
> reason to necessarily make every list behave exactly the same.   Do  
> what's best for each case.
>
> Mark Allums
>

Mark, 

I lurk on this list a lot because I find the technical questions that
others pose to be things that I have wondered about, and the answers
to be clearly stated and authoritative. The limiting resource for this
list is the quality of the people who give these good answers. These
are not ordinary stumble bum yahoos that you find so many of on the
net. IMHO, they count for something. They are a resource that should
be nurtured.

I have seen occasions where a resource person also had something of a
attitude, but mostly they are intelligent, well informed, busy people
who are willing to help others. They have set up this list the way it
is, because, I suppose, it works for them this way. This way it
mitigates the exasperation they suffer. This is the way they want
it. If I were ever to gain the skill and knowledge that they have, I
might have become quite exasperated with the yahoos along the way, too.

I think your position is analogous to that of an American tourist in Paris
who gets all bent out of shape because everyone is talking in French and
pretending to understand each other. ;-)

-- 
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Re: [OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Mark Allums]

Chris Jones wrote:

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 07:28:29AM EDT, Mark Allums wrote:


The policy should be changed.



And don't tell me to use some Thunderbird extension of dubious
provenance. I might not use Thunderbird, or I'm on Windows for email


[..]

I didn't follow this thread, so I'm not sure what you are referring to,
but are you requesting debian amend their mailing list policy to
accomodate M$ Windows users?

CJ



Well, in a manner of speaking, yes.  You don't have to be either a 
genius or a crackpot to be able to come up with reasonable situations 
where someone might be forced to use Windows for mail.  Why should they 
be made to suffer when everyone in the Wide Green World but Debian does 
it another, more reasonable way?


Of course, I suspect I know your retort already, from the way you spell 
Microsoft.  Microsoft is somewhat evil, yes, but not all users of their 
products are.  Debian is about freedom, yes? not punishing the poor 
slobs who are stuck with Exchange (for instance) and have no recourse.


In this, I feel I'm in the majority, here, of people who feel Debian is 
being a bit unnecessarily stubborn.


If the devs need it set the way it is, with no munging the Reply-to 
header, then, fine.  Let them do that for the devs and maintainers. 
Compromise a little and set the user list the way users expect it.  No 
reason to necessarily make every list behave exactly the same.   Do 
what's best for each case.


Mark Allums


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[OT] List policy - [Was: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?]

[Chris Jones]

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 07:28:29AM EDT, Mark Allums wrote:

> The policy should be changed.

> And don't tell me to use some Thunderbird extension of dubious
> provenance. I might not use Thunderbird, or I'm on Windows for email

[..]

I didn't follow this thread, so I'm not sure what you are referring to,
but are you requesting debian amend their mailing list policy to
accomodate M$ Windows users?

CJ







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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Liviu Andronic]

On 10/10/09, J.Hwan.Kim  wrote:
>  Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program except gnomebaker ?
>
Seemingly not yet mentioned: Xfburn.
Liviu


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[green]

Tim Beauregard wrote at 2009-10-11 02:58 -0500:
> green wrote:
> > Tim Beauregard wrote at 2009-10-10 14:27 -0500:
> >> My choice is cdrdao, as it can identify burn-proof technology without
> >> switches.
> > 
> > Surely wodim does too?  And I don't see mention of 'burn-proof' in 
> > cdrdao(1) 
> > (v1:1.2.2-16).
> 
> Yes wodim does, I'm not dissing wodim!  Just when I'm in lazy mode,
> can't be bothered to type the burnfree switch, I use cdrdao!

Okay, I looked at wodim(1) and I see under 'burnfree':

This option is deprecated and is mentioned here for documentation purposes 
only.  The BURN-Free feature is enabled by default if the drive supports it.  
However, use of BURN-Free may cause decreased burning quality. Therefore it can 
be useful to disable it for certain purposes, eg. when creating a master copy 
for mass CD production.


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Description: Digital signature

Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Mark Allums]

John Hasler wrote:

randall writes:

this list sets the "reply to" to the original sender of the message
instead of the list itself.


It does no such thing.  Here is the relevant part of the header of your
message as received here.  No "reply to" present.


[clip]




i always need to remove the TO and change the CC into TO, not sure if
it works the same on all mail clients but i use Thunderbird.


Use "reply-to-list":

I found that in five seconds with Google.


it might be more productive to send a polite request to change this
default behavior to the list maintainer instead of some other remarks
made in this thread.


Pointless.  This has been discussed repeatedly for years.  Your problem
is not that the list sets something you don't want but that it does not
set something you do want: "reply-to-list".  That is not going to
change.



It *shouldn't* be pointless.  These Debian lists are deliberately 
contrary to standard practice, and have been so "for years".


The fact that so many people have a problem with this should tell the 
maintainers something.  They are being as mule-headed as possible about 
this, for no good reason, RFCs-be-damned.


The policy should be changed.

And don't tell me to use some Thunderbird extension of dubious 
provenance. I might not use Thunderbird, or I'm on Windows for email, or 
I'm trapped in a situation where the power-that-be won't allow 
extensions, or any number of other reasons that keep me from using a 
Reply-to-list feature.  Lots of people are not able to do that.


And sometimes I forget.  I have to remember two behaviors for different 
lists.  I'm not young anymore.  No one should get POed at anyone else 
for not changing the addressing, because we may not be able to do better.


It's not "his problem".  It's the problem of half the posters on 
Debian-user.


Mark Allums





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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Tim Beauregard]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Brian Marshall wrote:
> The wodim(1) manpage has this to say about the burnfree option:
> 
> This option is deprecated and is mentioned here for documentation

Aha.  Guess I need to update my brain.
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=Pddz
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Brian Marshall]

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 08:58:36AM +0100, Tim Beauregard wrote:
> green wrote:
> > Tim Beauregard wrote at 2009-10-10 14:27 -0500:
> >> My choice is cdrdao, as it can identify burn-proof technology without
> >> switches.
> > 
> > Surely wodim does too?  And I don't see mention of 'burn-proof' in 
> > cdrdao(1) 
> > (v1:1.2.2-16).
> 
> Yes wodim does, I'm not dissing wodim!  Just when I'm in lazy mode,
> can't be bothered to type the burnfree switch, I use cdrdao!

The wodim(1) manpage has this to say about the burnfree option:

This option is deprecated and is mentioned here for documentation
purposes only. The BURN-Free feature is enabled by default if the drive
supports  it.

So it looks like wodim and cdrdao are the same in this regard.

Brian


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Tim Beauregard]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

green wrote:
> Tim Beauregard wrote at 2009-10-10 14:27 -0500:
>> My choice is cdrdao, as it can identify burn-proof technology without
>> switches.
> 
> Surely wodim does too?  And I don't see mention of 'burn-proof' in cdrdao(1) 
> (v1:1.2.2-16).

Yes wodim does, I'm not dissing wodim!  Just when I'm in lazy mode,
can't be bothered to type the burnfree switch, I use cdrdao!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)

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jwoAn3zgcV6zDN2YlwIf5SfNUQWWvFin
=pxR5
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[David Fox]

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 7:33 AM, J.Hwan.Kim  wrote:
> Hi, everyone
>
> Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program except gnomebaker ?
>
> Thanks in advance.

k3b works well for easily transferring a set of files over to a CD, or
to put a bunch of mp3s or what have you and convert them on the fly to
CD format.

But for writing DVDs, mostly images or output of other conversion
programs (mpeg2) I stick to growisofs with a wrapper sometimes, or
straight from the command line. In my experience, I've had better
success with growisofs early on.



-- 
thanks for letting me change the magnetic patterns on your hard disk.


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Alex Samad]

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 03:38:09PM -0400, JoeHill wrote:
> randall wrote: 
> 
> > it might be more productive to send a polite request to change this
> > default behavior to the list maintainer instead of some other remarks
> > made in this thread.
> 
> I suppose that was indirectly aimed at me...
> 
> Seriously, I asked politely for the guy to not CC me, and he _deliberately_
> ignored my request. He actually looked at what I asked him to do, thought 
> 'no',
> and did it anyway.
> 
> I deal with this kind of crap all day from a 5 year old, I really don't need 
> it

easy make him use windows when he gives you crap that should sort him
out quick smart.  My 2 yo has decide to take her nappies off before she
gets to the toilet - luckly we have had not trails to follow 

> from someone who is presumably an adult who can do up his own goddamned pants.
> 

-- 
1: No code table for op: ++post


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[green]

Tim Beauregard wrote at 2009-10-10 14:27 -0500:
> My choice is cdrdao, as it can identify burn-proof technology without
> switches.

Surely wodim does too?  And I don't see mention of 'burn-proof' in cdrdao(1) 
(v1:1.2.2-16).


signature.asc
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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[JoeHill]

randall wrote: 

> it might be more productive to send a polite request to change this
> default behavior to the list maintainer instead of some other remarks
> made in this thread.

I suppose that was indirectly aimed at me...

Seriously, I asked politely for the guy to not CC me, and he _deliberately_
ignored my request. He actually looked at what I asked him to do, thought 'no',
and did it anyway.

I deal with this kind of crap all day from a 5 year old, I really don't need it
from someone who is presumably an adult who can do up his own goddamned pants.

-- 
J


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Tim Beauregard]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

My choice is cdrdao, as it can identify burn-proof technology without
switches.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)

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Rm0AoILsSOPaTwO63ZlfKFfolbTOdY1u
=JPp2
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[John Hasler]

randall writes:
> this list sets the "reply to" to the original sender of the message
> instead of the list itself.

It does no such thing.  Here is the relevant part of the header of your
message as received here.  No "reply to" present.

  Message-ID: <4ad0c8f8.4040...@songshu.org>
  Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 19:48:40 +0200
  From: randall 
  User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817)
  MIME-Version: 1.0
  To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
  Subject: Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?
  References: <4ad09b1d.6080...@gmail.com>  
<20091010104314.314bb...@teksavvy.com>  
<3eb61c3d0910100805g3aadc10fvb7a9ae9abc52e...@mail.gmail.com>   
<20091010115121.1f696...@teksavvy.com>  
<3eb61c3d0910100935j1cfa415dhbf93a8492effd...@mail.gmail.com> 
<874oq7uq67@thumper.dhh.gt.org>
  In-Reply-To: <874oq7uq67@thumper.dhh.gt.org>
  X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
  X-Rc-Virus: 2007-09-13_01
  X-Rc-Spam: 2008-11-04_01
  Prev-Resent-Message-ID: <7vvuldh0-sb.a.jhh.rkm...@liszt>
  Prev-Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
  X-Mailing-List:  archive/latest/560958
  X-Loop: debian-user@lists.debian.org
  List-Id: 
  List-Post: <mailto:debian-user@lists.debian.org>
  List-Help: <mailto:debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org?subject=help>
  List-Subscribe: 
<mailto:debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org?subject=subscribe>
  List-Unsubscribe: 
<mailto:debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org?subject=unsubscribe>
  Precedence: list
  Prev-Resent-Sender: debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
  Prev-Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:49:06 + (UTC)
  X-UIDL: 2QZ"!FKB"!A'W"!5iY!!
  Prev-Resent-Bcc: 
  Lines: 41

> i always need to remove the TO and change the CC into TO, not sure if
> it works the same on all mail clients but i use Thunderbird.

Use "reply-to-list":
<http://alumnit.ca/wiki/index.php?page=ReplyToListThunderbirdExtension>
I found that in five seconds with Google.

> it might be more productive to send a polite request to change this
> default behavior to the list maintainer instead of some other remarks
> made in this thread.

Pointless.  This has been discussed repeatedly for years.  Your problem
is not that the list sets something you don't want but that it does not
set something you do want: "reply-to-list".  That is not going to
change.
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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Paul E Condon]

On 2009-10-10_19:48:40, randall wrote:
> John Hasler wrote:
> > Mark Goldshtein writes:
> >> Looks like I am really sorry what Debian Mailing List works this way.
> > 
> > The mailing list merely sends each subscriber one copy of each message
> > it receives.  That's all.  It has nothing to do with cc's and it never
> > sends more than one copy to each subscriber.  You are sending your
> > messages to JoeHill and cc'ing the list.  Here is the relevant part of
> > the header:
> > 
> > Message-ID: <3eb61c3d0910100935j1cfa415dhbf93a8492effd...@mail.gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?
> > From: Mark Goldshtein 
> > To: JoeHill 
> > Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> > 
> > Why are you doing this?
> 
> 
> 
> i have the same problem,
> 
> this list sets the "reply to" to the original sender of the message
> instead of the list itself.
> this is the only list i know that acts this way, i think i saw a thread
> on this or another debian list on this as well recently.
> 
> i always need to remove the TO and change the CC into TO, not sure if it
> works the same on all mail clients but i use Thunderbird.
> 
> it might be more productive to send a polite request to change this
> default behavior to the list maintainer instead of some other remarks
> made in this thread.
> 

I use Mutt to read my mail. In Mutt, the "L" key starts the composing
of a reply-to-list email.

I think that the developers, that is the people who are very important
to getting useful answers on this list, would be very unhappy if this
request, however politely phrased, were to be implemented.

IMHO, there are some things that are more important grand ideas of
social policy and open software. One is text-only email (no html), and
more important than that is MUAs that properly handle the
reply-to-list headers. ;-)

-- 
Paul E Condon   
pecon...@mesanetworks.net


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[randall]

John Hasler wrote:
> Mark Goldshtein writes:
>> Looks like I am really sorry what Debian Mailing List works this way.
> 
> The mailing list merely sends each subscriber one copy of each message
> it receives.  That's all.  It has nothing to do with cc's and it never
> sends more than one copy to each subscriber.  You are sending your
> messages to JoeHill and cc'ing the list.  Here is the relevant part of
> the header:
> 
> Message-ID: <3eb61c3d0910100935j1cfa415dhbf93a8492effd...@mail.gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?
> From: Mark Goldshtein 
> To: JoeHill 
> Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> 
> Why are you doing this?



i have the same problem,

this list sets the "reply to" to the original sender of the message
instead of the list itself.
this is the only list i know that acts this way, i think i saw a thread
on this or another debian list on this as well recently.

i always need to remove the TO and change the CC into TO, not sure if it
works the same on all mail clients but i use Thunderbird.

it might be more productive to send a polite request to change this
default behavior to the list maintainer instead of some other remarks
made in this thread.


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[John Hasler]

Mark Goldshtein writes:
> Looks like I am really sorry what Debian Mailing List works this way.

The mailing list merely sends each subscriber one copy of each message
it receives.  That's all.  It has nothing to do with cc's and it never
sends more than one copy to each subscriber.  You are sending your
messages to JoeHill and cc'ing the list.  Here is the relevant part of
the header:

Message-ID: <3eb61c3d0910100935j1cfa415dhbf93a8492effd...@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?
From: Mark Goldshtein 
To: JoeHill 
Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org

Why are you doing this?
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[JoeHill]

Mark Goldshtein wrote: 

> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 7:51 PM, JoeHill  wrote:
> > Please _do not_ cc me, I am subscribed to the list, and I really don't care
> > what your needs might be in this regard.  
> 
> Looks like I am really sorry what Debian Mailing List works this way.

No it does _not_ work this way. _You_ are doing it this way, and I have asked
you politely not to. If you continue, I will not be polite, and you will
fucking regret it.

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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Mark Goldshtein]

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 7:51 PM, JoeHill  wrote:
> Please _do not_ cc me, I am subscribed to the list, and I really don't care
> what your needs might be in this regard.

Looks like I am really sorry what Debian Mailing List works this way.


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Re: Could you recommend CD/DVD writer program?

[Nuno Magalhães]

Brasero works well for me.


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