Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
On 9/22/2010 9:56 PM, Scott Ferguson wrote: This is the exception that proves the rule. I still think that doing it under an AMD64 or Intel x86_64 is probably futile under the current state-of -the-art. Nested virtualization is *not* the point or objective of the exercise - enabling installation of Debian in W7VPC *is*. Hypervisor is a very common exception in my experience - I guess it depends on what you're exposed to in the workplace. I am not making myself clear. You can do it under zVM. You can't do it with Virtualbox and Virtul PC. Pure and simple. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c9b3fdd.2040...@allums.com
Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:49:42 -0400 (EDT), Scott Ferguson wrote: On 23/09/10 06:14, Stephen Powell wrote: On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:29:59 -0400 (EDT), Mark Allums wrote: I am probably way late on this one, but that maneuver is a nonstarter. Nested Virtualization is very difficult and kind of pointless. A few security researchers[0] have done it, mostly as a stunt to prove a technical point, but it is very unstable. You *can* run DOSbox in a VM, but generally the question is, why would you? That may be true for some virtualization software, but not for all. My day job is as a system programmer for IBM mainframe systems, and among my duties is responsibility for a z/VM system. In z/VM, nested virtualization is not difficult, pointless, or unstable. I routinely install a new release of z/VM in a virtual machine running under the production release of z/VM, for example. There's even instructions in IBM's installation manuals for how to do this. z/VM is probably the most robust virtualization platform available anywhere, having been developed, tweaked, and honed by IBM since 1967. But it has two distict disadvantages: (1) it is proprietary, for-charge software and (2) it only runs on IBM mainframes. I suspect you're quoting Joanna and crediting Mark there... No. This was a reply to http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2010/09/msg01676.html which was posted by Mark Allums. No-one named Joanna has posted to this thread. The name Joanna was referenced only in a footnote in Mark's post. -- .''`. Stephen Powell : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1676738525.216701.1285253493610.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
On 24/09/10 00:51, Stephen Powell wrote: On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:49:42 -0400 (EDT), Scott Ferguson wrote: On 23/09/10 06:14, Stephen Powell wrote: On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:29:59 -0400 (EDT), Mark Allums wrote: I am probably way late on this one, but that maneuver is a nonstarter. Nested Virtualization is very difficult and kind of pointless. A few security researchers[0] have done it, mostly as a stunt to prove a technical point, but it is very unstable. You *can* run DOSbox in a VM, but generally the question is, why would you? That may be true for some virtualization software, but not for all. My day job is as a system programmer for IBM mainframe systems, and among my duties is responsibility for a z/VM system. In z/VM, nested virtualization is not difficult, pointless, or unstable. I routinely install a new release of z/VM in a virtual machine running under the production release of z/VM, for example. There's even instructions in IBM's installation manuals for how to do this. z/VM is probably the most robust virtualization platform available anywhere, having been developed, tweaked, and honed by IBM since 1967. But it has two distict disadvantages: (1) it is proprietary, for-charge software and (2) it only runs on IBM mainframes. I suspect you're quoting Joanna and crediting Mark there... No. This was a reply to http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2010/09/msg01676.html which was posted by Mark Allums. No-one named Joanna has posted to this thread. The name Joanna was referenced only in a footnote in Mark's post. Ah! Thank you for the clarification. I shall now re-read the post in the morning with less cynical eyes. (shoot me if you will - but I call Blue Pill b.s. - source code available if you wish to test the $300+K hype). In retrospect I should have given more thought to my subject line! Makes it sound like a request for help - very obscure of me :-( It's a moot point now - given that the purpose of running the nested virtualization was simply to (partially) confirm VPC *is* almost identical to VirtualBox - most definitely not some novel way to find breakpoints for SoftIce. Not that I'd jeopardise my clearance (like Sklyarov) just to FLIRT with Embrace, Extend, etc. No argument with IBM's hypervisors and their capabilities - I first had access to one of the (poorly named) RS range 20+ years ago - can't say I loved it, but I did enjoy borrowing cards to drop into my (IBM) PS/2 :-) Good night, and apologies for the confusion -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c9b74db.9080...@gmail.com
Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
On 9/23/2010 9:51 AM, Stephen Powell wrote: On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:49:42 -0400 (EDT), Scott Ferguson wrote: On 23/09/10 06:14, Stephen Powell wrote: On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:29:59 -0400 (EDT), Mark Allums wrote: I am probably way late on this one, but that maneuver is a nonstarter. Nested Virtualization is very difficult and kind of pointless. A few security researchers[0] have done it, mostly as a stunt to prove a technical point, but it is very unstable. You *can* run DOSbox in a VM, but generally the question is, why would you? That may be true for some virtualization software, but not for all. My day job is as a system programmer for IBM mainframe systems, and among my duties is responsibility for a z/VM system. In z/VM, nested virtualization is not difficult, pointless, or unstable. I routinely install a new release of z/VM in a virtual machine running under the production release of z/VM, for example. There's even instructions in IBM's installation manuals for how to do this. z/VM is probably the most robust virtualization platform available anywhere, having been developed, tweaked, and honed by IBM since 1967. But it has two distict disadvantages: (1) it is proprietary, for-charge software and (2) it only runs on IBM mainframes. I suspect you're quoting Joanna and crediting Mark there... No. This was a reply to http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2010/09/msg01676.html which was posted by Mark Allums. No-one named Joanna has posted to this thread. The name Joanna was referenced only in a footnote in Mark's post. Who said what not important. It's just an opinion. (My opinion.) I would be ecstatic to be proved wrong. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c9bf45c.1000...@allums.com
Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
On 9/21/2010 6:51 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote: To satisfy my curiosity I have been trying (without success) to get Debian installed and running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC. What I have discovered is that:- 1. If you run Windoof 7 in VirtualBox (under Debian) it runs fine - given an inordinate amount of RAM. However it immediately freezes when I attempt to start the W7VPC. H... I am probably way late on this one, but that maneuver is a nonstarter. Nested Virtualization is very difficult and kind of pointless. A few security researchers[0] have done it, mostly as a stunt to prove a technical point, but it is very unstable. You *can* run DOSbox in a VM, but generally the question is, why would you? 0. Google Joanna Rutkowska, Blue Pill -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c9a5937.1030...@allums.com
Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
On 9/21/2010 6:51 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote: Someone with more knowledge of the history of Virtual PC may be able to explain those similarities. Microsoft did not create VPC, they bought it from Connectix. It's provenance probably includes a lot of old code from various places. I used to know more, but I can't recall, and I can't be bothered to Google it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c9a5a57.3090...@allums.com
Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:29:59 -0400 (EDT), Mark Allums wrote: I am probably way late on this one, but that maneuver is a nonstarter. Nested Virtualization is very difficult and kind of pointless. A few security researchers[0] have done it, mostly as a stunt to prove a technical point, but it is very unstable. You *can* run DOSbox in a VM, but generally the question is, why would you? That may be true for some virtualization software, but not for all. My day job is as a system programmer for IBM mainframe systems, and among my duties is responsibility for a z/VM system. In z/VM, nested virtualization is not difficult, pointless, or unstable. I routinely install a new release of z/VM in a virtual machine running under the production release of z/VM, for example. There's even instructions in IBM's installation manuals for how to do this. z/VM is probably the most robust virtualization platform available anywhere, having been developed, tweaked, and honed by IBM since 1967. But it has two distict disadvantages: (1) it is proprietary, for-charge software and (2) it only runs on IBM mainframes. -- .''`. Stephen Powell : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/392518524.195405.1285186466590.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
On 9/22/2010 3:14 PM, Stephen Powell wrote: That may be true for some virtualization software, but not for all. My day job is as a system programmer for IBM mainframe systems, and among my duties is responsibility for a z/VM system. In z/VM, nested virtualization is not difficult, pointless, or unstable. I routinely install a new release of z/VM in a virtual machine running under the production release of z/VM, for example. There's even instructions in IBM's installation manuals for how to do this. This is the exception that proves the rule. I still think that doing it under an AMD64 or Intel x86_64 is probably futile under the current state-of -the-art. I know it's been done under a XEN hypervisor. I don't know about Virtualbox. If you do it and it's stable, like I asked another poster in another thread, please write a HOWTO and show everyone how it's done. I am aware of the old MVS and all that, running DOS and CMS and so on all at the same time, but I'm a decade too young to have any experience with that. All I can say I've done is write COBOL and JCL with Report Writer under WYLBUR for a class. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c9a7767.9050...@allums.com
Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
On 23/09/10 05:29, Mark Allums wrote: On 9/21/2010 6:51 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote: To satisfy my curiosity I have been trying (without success) to get Debian installed and running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC. What I have discovered is that:- 1. If you run Windoof 7 in VirtualBox (under Debian) it runs fine - given an inordinate amount of RAM. However it immediately freezes when I attempt to start the W7VPC. H... I am probably way late on this one, but that maneuver is a nonstarter. Nested Virtualization is very difficult and kind of pointless. A few security researchers[0] have done it, mostly as a stunt to prove a technical point, but it is very unstable. You *can* run DOSbox in a VM, but generally the question is, why would you? 0. Google Joanna Rutkowska, Blue Pill Understood. Nested virtualization was *not* the point, or objective of the exercise. If your intentions are instructive/supportive, please read the thread ps - illegal instruction to catch up. A few? Difficult? Stunts? (sigh) Sorry Joanna - at this point I need more coffee before I start biting things for the sake of biting :-/ Cheers -- *In case you never receive this mail, please notify me immediately* -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c9abe77.1090...@gmail.com
Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
On 23/09/10 05:34, Mark Allums wrote: On 9/21/2010 6:51 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote: Someone with more knowledge of the history of Virtual PC may be able to explain those similarities. Microsoft did not create VPC, they bought it from Connectix. It's provenance probably includes a lot of old code from various places. I used to know more, but I can't recall, and I can't be bothered to Google it. Thanks Mark. I have received some information that the same people worked on the VPC and VirtualBox. Cheers -- *In case you never receive this mail, please notify me immediately* -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c9abf4b.4070...@gmail.com
Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
On 23/09/10 06:14, Stephen Powell wrote: On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:29:59 -0400 (EDT), Mark Allums wrote: I am probably way late on this one, but that maneuver is a nonstarter. Nested Virtualization is very difficult and kind of pointless. A few security researchers[0] have done it, mostly as a stunt to prove a technical point, but it is very unstable. You *can* run DOSbox in a VM, but generally the question is, why would you? That may be true for some virtualization software, but not for all. My day job is as a system programmer for IBM mainframe systems, and among my duties is responsibility for a z/VM system. In z/VM, nested virtualization is not difficult, pointless, or unstable. I routinely install a new release of z/VM in a virtual machine running under the production release of z/VM, for example. There's even instructions in IBM's installation manuals for how to do this. z/VM is probably the most robust virtualization platform available anywhere, having been developed, tweaked, and honed by IBM since 1967. But it has two distict disadvantages: (1) it is proprietary, for-charge software and (2) it only runs on IBM mainframes. I suspect you're quoting Joanna and crediting Mark there... Agreed, and virtualbox under xen is common. A quick browse through fnord Ubuntu forums shows how trivial nested desktop virtualization is. Cheers -- *In case you never receive this mail, please notify me immediately* -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c9ac046.1000...@gmail.com
Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
On 23/09/10 07:38, Mark Allums wrote: On 9/22/2010 3:14 PM, Stephen Powell wrote: That may be true for some virtualization software, but not for all. My day job is as a system programmer for IBM mainframe systems, and among my duties is responsibility for a z/VM system. In z/VM, nested virtualization is not difficult, pointless, or unstable. I routinely install a new release of z/VM in a virtual machine running under the production release of z/VM, for example. There's even instructions in IBM's installation manuals for how to do this. This is the exception that proves the rule. I still think that doing it under an AMD64 or Intel x86_64 is probably futile under the current state-of -the-art. I know it's been done under a XEN hypervisor. I don't know about Virtualbox. If you do it and it's stable, like I asked another poster in another thread, please write a HOWTO and show everyone how it's done. I am aware of the old MVS and all that, running DOS and CMS and so on all at the same time, but I'm a decade too young to have any experience with that. All I can say I've done is write COBOL and JCL with Report Writer under WYLBUR for a class. (Still haven't had my coffee yet) Perhaps I forgot to reference the ps - illegal instruction thread in my original thread - my apologies. Nested virtualization is *not* the point or objective of the exercise - enabling installation of Debian in W7VPC *is*. Hypervisor is a very common exception in my experience - I guess it depends on what you're exposed to in the workplace. Cheers -- *In case you never receive this mail, please notify me immediately* -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c9ac1ed.4050...@gmail.com
Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
Regarding post ps - illegal instruction by Jerry Stuckle To satisfy my curiosity I have been trying (without success) to get Debian installed and running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC. What I have discovered is that:- 1. If you run Windoof 7 in VirtualBox (under Debian) it runs fine - given an inordinate amount of RAM. However it immediately freezes when I attempt to start the W7VPC. H... 2. The xml configuration files for W7VPC are remarkably similar to the VirtualBox ones 3. Some of the W7VPC components are remarkably similar to VirtualBox Guest Additions Someone with more knowledge of the history of Virtual PC may be able to explain those similarities. I suspect the similarities between VirtualBox and W7VPC are close enough to allow modification of W7VPC to make it work the way it should. :-) Clearly I will need to install Windoof7 on real hardware if I want to continue meddling. A number of points were raised when Jerry posted his requests for assistance:- 1. Don't bother - Microsoft don't want it to work 2. Other emulator/virtualization solutions exist - use them 3. It would require reverse-engineering - which is bad 4. Why bother (with various reasoning's) I like the idea of being able to run my favourite OS within Windoof (which on occasion I've been required to use). I'd like to be able to do it without needing Admin rights. I'm not keen on Microsoft dictating what I can and can't do - either I own it (and can smoke it if I like) or I'm renting/leasing it - and I want my money back ;-p If FOSS removed everything that came from reverse engineering we'd all be computing with paper - SAMBA certainly wouldn't exist, ditto for a lot of drivers (sigh). I hope to return to this exercise (in futility?) when I have some more free time - I'll post a summary of any progress. Cheers all -- *In case you never receive this mail, please notify me immediately* -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c989c24.9010...@gmail.com
Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
Scott Ferguson writes: 3. It would require reverse-engineering - which is bad No it isn't. I noted that Microsoft claims that it is illegal, but that is not the same thing at all. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87y6avuu9p@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
On 21/09/10 22:59, John Hasler wrote: Scott Ferguson writes: 3. It would require reverse-engineering - which is bad No it isn't. I noted that Microsoft claims that it is illegal, but that is not the same thing at all. :-D Agreed John, hence my comment a little further down about either I own it... I've often said if Microsoft sold cars, the sales jobs'd be less popular than parking inspectors. That's business practices. I've read that when the Romans ran most of the world - bridge builders were made to stand under any bridge they'd just completed while a legion marched over it. There's a responsibility that comes with the money (and the rattle of a stick in the swill bucket). That's the product. Now if I can just find the time to make Virtual PC work - then anyone with non-Admin access to Windoof 7 can (theoretically) run their OS of choice which'd be just fine and dandy by me :-D Cheers -- *In case you never receive this mail, please notify me immediately* -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c98b471.6080...@gmail.com
Re: Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)
On Tuesday 21 September 2010 15:34:41 Scott Ferguson wrote: On 21/09/10 22:59, John Hasler wrote: Scott Ferguson writes: 3. It would require reverse-engineering - which is bad No it isn't. I noted that Microsoft claims that it is illegal, but that is not the same thing at all. Bad is not a synonimous for illegal. Reverse-ingeneering is bad in that, at least, it forces you to do a work you could avoid by just having access to internal documentation and source code... as it's the case when open source. Cheers. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201009211842.59532.jesus.nava...@undominio.net
