Re: Dell BIOS Changes
On 2020-01-29, Curt wrote: > On 2020-01-28, J. D. Leach wrote: >> To Whom it May Concern, >> >> Have a Dell Inspiron 3668 desktop with the latest Dell firmware >> (1.12.2). This update, and numerous of the preceding ones, do not allow >> ANY type of loading of Debian (or any othe Linux flavor) onto the PC. In > > That's astounding, because Dell provides instructions for installing Ubuntu on > this very machine. > > https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/fr/fr/frbsdt1/inspiron-3668-desktop/inspiron3668_setupandspecs/set-up-your-computer?guid=guid-47dddb93-f245-4113-bec4-98988598ae47=en-us > > Quote: > > 6.Finish operating system setup.For Ubuntu: Follow the on-screen > instructions to >complete the setup. For more information about installing and configuring >Ubuntu, see the knowledge base articles SLN151664 and SLN151748 at >www.dell.com/support. > > Below, Dell explains how to update the BIOS in a Linux or Ubuntu-only > environment: > > https://www.dell.com/support/article/us/en/04/sln171755/update-the-dell-bios-in-a-linux-or-ubuntu-environment?lang=en > > Can you provide any substantive evidence for your assertion? > Just to belabor the point, Dell lists Ubuntu® Desktop 16.04 as a supported operating system for the Inspiron 3668: https://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/04/drivers/supportedos/inspiron-3668-desktop The Inspiron 3668 is also one of the Dell machines that shipped with a factory Linux install: https://www.dell.com/support/article/us/en/04/sln305226/dell-client-systems-that-shipped-with-a-factory-install-of-linux?lang=en -- "J'ai pour me guérir du jugement des autres toute la distance qui me sépare de moi." Antonin Artaud
Re: Dell BIOS Changes
On 2020-01-28, J. D. Leach wrote: > To Whom it May Concern, > > Have a Dell Inspiron 3668 desktop with the latest Dell firmware > (1.12.2). This update, and numerous of the preceding ones, do not allow > ANY type of loading of Debian (or any othe Linux flavor) onto the PC. In That's astounding, because Dell provides instructions for installing Ubuntu on this very machine. https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/fr/fr/frbsdt1/inspiron-3668-desktop/inspiron3668_setupandspecs/set-up-your-computer?guid=guid-47dddb93-f245-4113-bec4-98988598ae47=en-us Quote: 6.Finish operating system setup.For Ubuntu: Follow the on-screen instructions to complete the setup. For more information about installing and configuring Ubuntu, see the knowledge base articles SLN151664 and SLN151748 at www.dell.com/support. Below, Dell explains how to update the BIOS in a Linux or Ubuntu-only environment: https://www.dell.com/support/article/us/en/04/sln171755/update-the-dell-bios-in-a-linux-or-ubuntu-environment?lang=en Can you provide any substantive evidence for your assertion? -- "J'ai pour me guérir du jugement des autres toute la distance qui me sépare de moi." Antonin Artaud
Re: Dell BIOS Changes
On 1/27/20 10:13 PM, J. D. Leach wrote: > To Whom it May Concern, > > Have a Dell Inspiron 3668 desktop with the latest Dell firmware > (1.12.2). This update, and numerous of the preceding ones, do not allow > ANY type of loading of Debian (or any othe Linux flavor) onto the PC. In > the BIOS configuration menu, no option is available to boot from the DVD > drive, or USB, unless a Windows recovery media is detected. Linux loader > programs likewise fail, and Windows loads instead. PC is about two years > old. > > Looked all across the 'Net and have found zero fixes outside of wiping > the hard drive. The latest Dell support pages regarding the set up of > the boot sequence does not cover the firmware installed on my PC. > > I suspect Microsoft is back to trying to squelch the use of software > other than what it approves of. > > Thought you might wish to be aware. > > Dave Leach > > Worked fine for me on my new Dell 15-3567, no changes needed in BIOS settings to install debian. Upgraded to the new BIOS by loading the .exe onto a FAT32 usb stick. Directions: https://www.dell.com/support/article/us/en/04/sln171755/update-the-dell-bios-in-a-linux-or-ubuntu-environment?lang=en#updatebios2015 Update the Dell BIOS in a Linux or Ubuntu environment Good luck! Ralph signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Dell BIOS Changes
On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 11:29 AM Nate Bargmann wrote: > The foregoing is why I really want to see ARM evolve to be the basis of > decent workstation performance. Given the machinations being done to > commodity hardware something more open with Coreboot or uboot is needed. > And in case you aren't referring to them directly, Google has definitively shown extreme vulnerabilities in the software on the service chips on many (including Dell) motherboards. https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/14/zombieload-flaw-intel-processors/ - Nate >
Re: Dell BIOS Changes
The foregoing is why I really want to see ARM evolve to be the basis of decent workstation performance. Given the machinations being done to commodity hardware something more open with Coreboot or uboot is needed. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Web: https://www.n0nb.us Projects: https://github.com/N0NB GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Dell BIOS Changes
On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 08:43:07AM -0700, ghe wrote: > On 1/27/20 10:13 PM, J. D. Leach wrote: > > > I suspect Microsoft is back to trying to squelch the use of software > > other than what it approves of. > > "Sells" you mean... > > I bought a Dell laptop a couple years ago, and it had a 'BIOS' like you > describe. But there was an option in the several pages of BIOS to use > 'Legacy' mode. It wasn't like any legacy BIOS I'd ever seen, but I did > manage to get it to boot a civilized OS. > > I just looked at servers on their website, and they have a feature they > call "Optional Operating System". That implies they are available > without Windows and will boot Debian. Servers, anyway. > Dell, like some other large companies, ends up with competing interests. There are parts of the company which are very Linux friendly (as can be seen by some of the projects on their GitHub page [0], like the thunderbolt for Linux driver and BIOS flash for Linux utility they maintain). This applies mostly to servers and enterprise products, but there are actuall workstations, laptops, etc. that have good support for non-Microsoft operating systems. They even sell a laptop with Ubuntu pre-installed (the XPS 13" Developer Edition). But then, when it comes to consumer-targeted products, the customer there wants to dictate what can and cannot be done (bearing in mind that the customer is actually Microsoft, not the purchaser of the computer itself). That's why most of those systems (i.e., non-servers) end up with locked down EFI configurations and hardware which is not well supported or flat out won't work with Linux. That's just how it goes. Regards, -Roberto [0] https://github.com/dell -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: Dell BIOS Changes
On 1/27/20 10:13 PM, J. D. Leach wrote: > I suspect Microsoft is back to trying to squelch the use of software > other than what it approves of. "Sells" you mean... I bought a Dell laptop a couple years ago, and it had a 'BIOS' like you describe. But there was an option in the several pages of BIOS to use 'Legacy' mode. It wasn't like any legacy BIOS I'd ever seen, but I did manage to get it to boot a civilized OS. I just looked at servers on their website, and they have a feature they call "Optional Operating System". That implies they are available without Windows and will boot Debian. Servers, anyway. -- Glenn English
Re: Dell BIOS Changes
On 2020-01-28 at 03:23, Alexander V. Makartsev wrote: > On 28.01.2020 10:13, J. D. Leach wrote: > >> To Whom it May Concern, >> >> Have a Dell Inspiron 3668 desktop with the latest Dell firmware >> (1.12.2). This update, and numerous of the preceding ones, do not >> allow ANY type of loading of Debian (or any othe Linux flavor) onto >> the PC. In the BIOS configuration menu, no option is available to boot >> from the DVD drive, or USB, unless a Windows recovery media is >> detected. Linux loader programs likewise fail, and Windows loads >> instead. PC is about two years old. >> >> Looked all across the 'Net and have found zero fixes outside of wiping >> the hard drive. The latest Dell support pages regarding the set up of >> the boot sequence does not cover the firmware installed on my PC. >> >> I suspect Microsoft is back to trying to squelch the use of software >> other than what it approves of. >> >> Thought you might wish to be aware. >> >> Dave Leach >> > > On the second thought, there is a mention about installation procedures > of alternative OSs in this document. [1] > > So now I think you simply have to make proper UEFI bootable media. > Legacy boot media, prepared like in "the old times", won't cut it for > this PC. > > [1] > https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/inspiron-3668-desktop_setup-guide_en-us.pdf FWIW, when I've worked with recent Dell models (at my workplace) which had this GPT/UEFI-boot-only requirement, they *only* applied it to the hard drive; with the correct UEFI settings applied (disabling Secure Boot, enabling Legacy Option ROMs under whatever name, and possibly enabling "legacy external device" boot), it has been definitely possible to boot to non-UEFI-partitioned non-GPT removable media. I haven't had experience with this specific Inspiron model, but I'd be surprised if it were any different. https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/us/en/04/inspiron-3668-desktop/inspiron%203668_sm/system-setup-options?guid=guid-2d1e8a4f-e5a2-49eb-823d-707f15a41edc=en-us appears to be the appropriate manual for working with the UEFI on this model. It lists the same "Enable Secure Boot" and "Enable Legacy Option ROMs" settings I was expecting to see, and IIRC the final setting (which may be optional) is under what "Boot List Option", mentioned near the top of the document. So it's likely that this is in fact supported. That said, I've also had problems with formatting, partitioning, and installing to a hard drive (on one of these systems) for UEFI boot from a "legacy"-booted external device - so there may be reason to go for a UEFI-style bootable external device anyway. (IIRC, the reason why "legacy" boot to internal devices is now prohibited is not a Dell decision, or a Microsoft one, but a consequence of an Intel decision which they've implemented in their motherboard chipsets; Intel has apparently decided to drop all support for non-UEFI boot to internal permanent hard drives, presumably for security reasons of some kind, and since that's hardware Dell can't override it in the firmware. So this won't be just on Dell computers, at least not going forward, although IIRC AMD has not yet taken a similar step.) -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Dell BIOS Changes
On 28.01.2020 10:13, J. D. Leach wrote: > To Whom it May Concern, > > Have a Dell Inspiron 3668 desktop with the latest Dell firmware > (1.12.2). This update, and numerous of the preceding ones, do not > allow ANY type of loading of Debian (or any othe Linux flavor) onto > the PC. In the BIOS configuration menu, no option is available to boot > from the DVD drive, or USB, unless a Windows recovery media is > detected. Linux loader programs likewise fail, and Windows loads > instead. PC is about two years old. > > Looked all across the 'Net and have found zero fixes outside of wiping > the hard drive. The latest Dell support pages regarding the set up of > the boot sequence does not cover the firmware installed on my PC. > > I suspect Microsoft is back to trying to squelch the use of software > other than what it approves of. > > Thought you might wish to be aware. > > Dave Leach > On the second thought, there is a mention about installation procedures of alternative OSs in this document. [1] So now I think you simply have to make proper UEFI bootable media. Legacy boot media, prepared like in "the old times", won't cut it for this PC. [1] https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/inspiron-3668-desktop_setup-guide_en-us.pdf -- With kindest regards, Alexander. ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org ⠈⠳⣄
Re: Dell BIOS Changes
On 28.01.2020 10:13, J. D. Leach wrote: > To Whom it May Concern, > > Have a Dell Inspiron 3668 desktop with the latest Dell firmware > (1.12.2). This update, and numerous of the preceding ones, do not > allow ANY type of loading of Debian (or any othe Linux flavor) onto > the PC. In the BIOS configuration menu, no option is available to boot > from the DVD drive, or USB, unless a Windows recovery media is > detected. Linux loader programs likewise fail, and Windows loads > instead. PC is about two years old. > > Looked all across the 'Net and have found zero fixes outside of wiping > the hard drive. The latest Dell support pages regarding the set up of > the boot sequence does not cover the firmware installed on my PC. > > I suspect Microsoft is back to trying to squelch the use of software > other than what it approves of. > > Thought you might wish to be aware. > > Dave Leach > Thanks for the heads up, and I thought Dell OEM is GNU\Linux friendly. I think, BIOS of your PC supports native EFI mode only, on top of restricting ability to manually select bootable media. (I've never seen a PC with restrictions like this, yet.) Is there an option to at least disable Secure Boot, or is it forced too? I'd try to switch hard disk with pre-installed OS to a blank one (temporarily disconnect all hard disks for a test, if you don't have a blank one) and make sure you've prepared UEFI-compatible bootable USB media. If bootable USB media was made correctly, and there is no other bootable disk found, it should start EFI bootloader from USB. And if not, it is possible that Secure Boot prevents it from loading by checking signature of bootloader against pre-installed in BIOS certificates issued by Microsoft. Usually there is an options in BIOS to disable Secure Boot or install alternative certificates. I've seen successful attempts to trick UEFI to load "grubx64.efi" EFI bootloader by placing and renaming it to "/EFI/Microsoft/Boot/bootmgfw.efi" I think it is also possible to edit BCD boot loader settings to add one more bootloader entry to the list and chainload "grubx64.efi". Just like grub chainloads other bootloaders, but the other way around. I've not tried this, but it looks doable. -- With kindest regards, Alexander. ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org ⠈⠳⣄
Re: Dell BIOS Changes
J. D. Leach wrote: > Have a Dell Inspiron 3668 desktop with the latest Dell firmware > (1.12.2). This update, and numerous of the preceding ones, do not allow > ANY type of loading of Debian (or any othe Linux flavor) onto the PC. In > the BIOS configuration menu, no option is available to boot from the DVD > drive, or USB, unless a Windows recovery media is detected. Linux loader > programs likewise fail, and Windows loads instead. PC is about two years > old. > > Looked all across the 'Net and have found zero fixes outside of wiping > the hard drive. The latest Dell support pages regarding the set up of > the boot sequence does not cover the firmware installed on my PC. > > I suspect Microsoft is back to trying to squelch the use of software > other than what it approves of. > > Thought you might wish to be aware. Since last upgrade of the companies notebook it can no longer boot from NFS (TFTP boot) or USB stick. The reason is UEFI+Secure boot. Unfortunately they protected the bios with password, I do not have. Might be you look into UEFI and secure boot unless it is defaulted and you can not remove, which I doubt.
Dell BIOS Changes
To Whom it May Concern, Have a Dell Inspiron 3668 desktop with the latest Dell firmware (1.12.2). This update, and numerous of the preceding ones, do not allow ANY type of loading of Debian (or any othe Linux flavor) onto the PC. In the BIOS configuration menu, no option is available to boot from the DVD drive, or USB, unless a Windows recovery media is detected. Linux loader programs likewise fail, and Windows loads instead. PC is about two years old. Looked all across the 'Net and have found zero fixes outside of wiping the hard drive. The latest Dell support pages regarding the set up of the boot sequence does not cover the firmware installed on my PC. I suspect Microsoft is back to trying to squelch the use of software other than what it approves of. Thought you might wish to be aware. Dave Leach
