Re: Easing the load.
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 04:29:23 +0800, David Palmer. wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:25:11 -0500
> Paul Morgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:16:05 +0800, David Palmer. wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> Perhaps you'll follow your own advice and seek three votes to throw
>> yourself off the list for your inability to use line wrap.
>
> Well, maybe this time I forgot it.
> But if that is all the reply you have, I wouldn't be making a public
> exhibition of my mentality.
> As I have said before, 'Any idiot can be destructive, It takes a mature
> human being to be creative.'
> Grow up on your own time.
I was just trying to point up the absurdity (my view) of the three votes
system, perhaps not very well.
A good measure of immaturity, though, might be gratuitous multiple
personal insults, such as wholly constitute your reply.
--
paul
"Do the little things" ("Gwnewch y pethau bychain")
St. David (Dewi Sant) of Wales, last sermon, Sunday 27th February 589
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Re: Easing the load.
On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 04:36:05AM +0800, David Palmer. wrote: > On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:35:58 + > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > [huge snippage] > > very disappointed to see anyone receive those as a response to a > > genuine query on this list. while independent inititiative is well > > recommended, the latent discouragement in that response is not > > reflective of this community and would do it no positive service > > whatsoever. > > > > ben > > Thank you, Ben, but that is actually an incorrect attribution that you > are referring to. > These three points were all the recourse that Paul Morgan was prepared > to concede to a Debian sys. admin in trouble. > The point I made in the original post was in accord with your statement > with the endorsement of the community factor. > Regards, > > David. > > apologies for the false attribution. the poster i was responding to didn't take care to properly quote. ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Easing the load.
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:35:58 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 07:48:26AM -0600, Hoyt Bailey wrote: > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "David Palmer." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 23:16 > > Subject: Re: Easing the load. > > > > > > > On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:16:24 -0500 > > > Paul Morgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:50:15 +0800, David Palmer wrote: > > > > I think the solution to the "server down, need answer NOW" issue > > > > is: > > > > > > > > 1. Ask on the #debian IRC channel > > > > 2. Get better at refining Google searches. > > > > 3. Use professional support services. > > > > > I agree with David if the posting dosent reflect a Tech. approch to > > the subject then it shouldnt be on this list. > > Hoyt > > > > > so your post here shouldn't actually be on the list? > > > i mean, technically speaking, it's hardly reflective of a technical > approach to the subject to merely announce your agreement with the > previous post, is it? > > as for david's 3 points, though i'm sure he means well, i would be > very disappointed to see anyone receive those as a response to a > genuine query on this list. while independent inititiative is well > recommended, the latent discouragement in that response is not > reflective of this community and would do it no positive service > whatsoever. > > ben Thank you, Ben, but that is actually an incorrect attribution that you are referring to. These three points were all the recourse that Paul Morgan was prepared to concede to a Debian sys. admin in trouble. The point I made in the original post was in accord with your statement with the endorsement of the community factor. Regards, David. > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Easing the load.
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:25:11 -0500
Paul Morgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:16:05 +0800, David Palmer. wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Perhaps you'll follow your own advice and seek three votes to throw
> yourself off the list for your inability to use line wrap.
Well, maybe this time I forgot it.
But if that is all the reply you have, I wouldn't be making a public
exhibition of my mentality.
As I have said before, 'Any idiot can be destructive, It takes a mature
human being to be creative.'
Grow up on your own time.
Regards,
David.
>
> --
> paul
>
> "Do the little things" ("Gwnewch y pethau bychain")
>
> St. David (Dewi Sant) of Wales, last sermon, Sunday 27th February 589
>
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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Re: Easing the load.
On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 07:48:26AM -0600, Hoyt Bailey wrote: > > - Original Message - > From: "David Palmer." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 23:16 > Subject: Re: Easing the load. > > > > On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:16:24 -0500 > > Paul Morgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:50:15 +0800, David Palmer wrote: > > > I think the solution to the "server down, need answer NOW" issue is: > > > > > > 1. Ask on the #debian IRC channel > > > 2. Get better at refining Google searches. > > > 3. Use professional support services. > > > I agree with David if the posting dosent reflect a Tech. approch to the > subject then it shouldnt be on this list. > Hoyt > > so your post here shouldn't actually be on the list? i mean, technically speaking, it's hardly reflective of a technical approach to the subject to merely announce your agreement with the previous post, is it? as for david's 3 points, though i'm sure he means well, i would be very disappointed to see anyone receive those as a response to a genuine query on this list. while independent inititiative is well recommended, the latent discouragement in that response is not reflective of this community and would do it no positive service whatsoever. ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Easing the load.
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:16:05 +0800, David Palmer. wrote:
[snip]
Perhaps you'll follow your own advice and seek three votes to throw
yourself off the list for your inability to use line wrap.
--
paul
"Do the little things" ("Gwnewch y pethau bychain")
St. David (Dewi Sant) of Wales, last sermon, Sunday 27th February 589
--
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Re: Easing the load.
- Original Message - From: "David Palmer." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 23:16 Subject: Re: Easing the load. > On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:16:24 -0500 > Paul Morgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:50:15 +0800, David Palmer wrote: > > I think the solution to the "server down, need answer NOW" issue is: > > > > 1. Ask on the #debian IRC channel > > 2. Get better at refining Google searches. > > 3. Use professional support services. > I agree with David if the posting dosent reflect a Tech. approch to the subject then it shouldnt be on this list. Hoyt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Easing the load.
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:16:24 -0500 Paul Morgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:50:15 +0800, David Palmer wrote: > > > I have seen what I believe is a need for an additional mailing list, not > > so much for the benefit of the developers' list, but most definitely for > > the sake of sanity on debian-user. I have posted to curiosain > > recognition of their patience with an O.T. situation. > > > [snip] > > > > > > As a migration point for O.T. threads that are creating a > > distraction within the main lists. There are two aspects to > > this:- > > > > (1). The distracting, disruptive influence just stated, and > > > > (2). The carry over and clutter created within the corresponding > > archive. The last thing a busy admin needs when a server is > > down, and she requires the answer to a problem, is to have to > > wade through a tide of irrelevant flotsam and jetsam. Having the > > facility of a list of this nature would have the effect of > > really cleaning up the archives. > > > > Non productive O.T. threads could, with the consensus of three > > other list members (to avoid personality clash scenarios) for > > example, could be migrated to the proposed list, leaving the > > main list to proceed productively, maintaining the integrity of > > the archive. If the thread becomes too off the wall for the new > > list, and after an initial negotiation fails, the > > personality(ies) could be unsubscribed. I believe the new list > > could be as productively essential as any other in its' own way, > > I do not see it as the dumping ground for the collective Debian > > effluviant, just a little further down the alimentary tract > > perhaps ; > > > [snip] > > So, you are wanting debian-user to become a moderated list, basically. Yes, moderated by the list members as it always has been. > What if there are three other list members who *don't* want the thread to > be migrated? Here we have the present problem. Terminate the thread, take it to private mail, or persist with the thread on Debian-User to the detriment of the list, associated archive, and the generation of ill-will within the community. If there are personalities who wish to persist in a destructive behaviour pattern, they will do so. But if they have an alternative venue, they will have less justification for their persistence and will generally accept the alternative. Those that don't, probably would have difficulty coordinating in any social setting, with a corresponding inability to contribute to, rather than take from, that environment. > > I think that the whole idea is unworkable, There would appear to be a number of people that disagree with your somewhat negative viewpoint. > and, anyway, for the most part, > I enjoy the OT threads, although I resist (mostly) the temptation to add > to them. There's nothing wrong with enjoying them, the only objection would appear to be the appropriateness of the setting. In the right setting, there would be no need to resist participation, dive in, make a pig of yourself. > > If one is an admin with a critical server down, maybe one ought to be > engaging the services of a support professional. (I know they're > not your exact words, but "Critical server down" implies a business or > commercial service, and one maybe shouldn't be relying on free advice to > support that.) We appear to differ here, also. Just because an admin isn't currently on the list, doesn't mean that they are not part of the community. The Debian community is planet-wide, even bigger. I don't have the details to hand, but the current Mars probe is running on Linux, which particular flavour, I wouldn't know, but maybe it's Debian. The whole concept of community revolves around mutual support. A support professional? Which particular aspect of the social/professional spectrum do you fondly imagine a system administrator is native to? We need as many Debian servers up and running in the professional environment as we can possibly manage, and if we have a Debian sys. admin. call in with a question, and I had the answer, she could have it for free. And I hope she makes a lot of money out of it, because the more professional Debian systems/admins we have operating, reduces the number of microsoft ones we have to put up with. Who would you call in? A M.C.S.E? > > The idea of moderating a list by the "three people don't like the thread" > method, This has never been the issue. There are a number of threads on Debian-User that I 'don't like.' That doesn't mean that they don't have a place on the list. I repeat, the situation, aside from the smackhead drivel which has no application anywhere, is the right thread in the wrong environment. > and of moving threads, If the thread is
Re: Easing the load.
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:50:15 +0800, David Palmer wrote:
> I have seen what I believe is a need for an additional mailing list, not
> so much for the benefit of the developers' list, but most definitely for
> the sake of sanity on debian-user. I have posted to curiosain
> recognition of their patience with an O.T. situation.
>
[snip]
>
>
> As a migration point for O.T. threads that are creating a
> distraction within the main lists. There are two aspects to
> this:-
>
> (1). The distracting, disruptive influence just stated, and
>
> (2). The carry over and clutter created within the corresponding
> archive. The last thing a busy admin needs when a server is
> down, and she requires the answer to a problem, is to have to
> wade through a tide of irrelevant flotsam and jetsam. Having the
> facility of a list of this nature would have the effect of
> really cleaning up the archives.
>
> Non productive O.T. threads could, with the consensus of three
> other list members (to avoid personality clash scenarios) for
> example, could be migrated to the proposed list, leaving the
> main list to proceed productively, maintaining the integrity of
> the archive. If the thread becomes too off the wall for the new
> list, and after an initial negotiation fails, the
> personality(ies) could be unsubscribed. I believe the new list
> could be as productively essential as any other in its' own way,
> I do not see it as the dumping ground for the collective Debian
> effluviant, just a little further down the alimentary tract
> perhaps ;
>
[snip]
So, you are wanting debian-user to become a moderated list, basically.
What if there are three other list members who *don't* want the thread to
be migrated?
I think that the whole idea is unworkable, and, anyway, for the most part,
I enjoy the OT threads, although I resist (mostly) the temptation to add
to them.
If one is an admin with a critical server down, maybe one ought to be
engaging the services of a support professional. (I know they're
not your exact words, but "Critical server down" implies a business or
commercial service, and one maybe shouldn't be relying on free advice to
support that.)
The idea of moderating a list by the "three people don't like the thread"
method, and of moving threads, and of banning people, smacks of bullying
to me, and will almost certainly generate more heat than light, as people
gang up against one another. I bet that one could find three people to
move a thread or ban a subscriber based simply on length or content of a
sig. Someone has already posted that they consider all sigs as "spam".
And the volume of posts arguing about the usefulness or topicality of
threads will probably be greater than the volume of OT threads anyway.
I think the solution to the "server down, need answer NOW" issue is:
1. Ask on the #debian IRC channel
2. Get better at refining Google searches.
3. Use professional support services.
--
paul
"Do the little things" ("Gwnewch y pethau bychain")
St. David (Dewi Sant) of Wales, last sermon, Sunday 27th February 589
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Re: Easing the load.
Some of your examples could actually be categorized under a heading of debian-future or debian-directions. According to David Palmer, > I have seen what I believe is a need for an additional mailing list, not > so much for the benefit of the developers' list, but most definitely for > the sake of sanity on debian-user. I have posted to curiosain > recognition of their patience with an O.T. situation. > > The following layout is for initial discussion only,pending the full > application being tendered as a wishlist bug report. > > Thanking you for your attention. > > > Mailing List Request. > > > > Basic Purpose:- > > > For this list, is multi-part. > > A need is seen, within the context of Debian, for a repository for all > discussions and notifications that are not list specific. It could be > argued here that if a subject is not list-specific, it has no place in > the list. Allow me to supply some examples:- > > > A notification on Debian-User of a new worm variant that sys. > admins on the list require notice of, as they are running Debian > servers supporting windows boxes also munging the mail > headers/filters of the developer who is on the list to supply > advice; > > > Discussions that become O.T., that although they are not > technical in nature enhance and enforce the community nature of > Debian. They occur, so therefore members feel the need for the > interaction, this would strengthen the community as a community. > This is especially noticeable on lists with a broad spectrum > sociological diversity such as Debian -User. I am not referring > here, to the inconsequential drivel that arises from those > entities that require a stage to prance on with a captive > audience to assuage the requirements imposed by attention > deficiency, there have been conversations initiated within the > disciplines of philosophy and psychology/sociology, for example, > and it is to these I refer. The other variety would get as short > shrift on the new list as being as unproductive as they are in > any other environment. > > There are many highly qualified people in the community, > physicists, mathematicians, et al, who, if they had the option > of taking part in non-debian discussion, could ironically > generate new directions within Debian. For example, there are a > number of packages of a mathematical nature within the Debian > programme, these could well be collated into a sub-project. The > type of list structure that I advocate conceivably forming a > wellspring for projects of this nature; > > > > As a migration point for O.T. threads that are creating a > distraction within the main lists. There are two aspects to > this:- > > (1). The distracting, disruptive influence just stated, and > > (2). The carry over and clutter created within the corresponding > archive. The last thing a busy admin needs when a server is > down, and she requires the answer to a problem, is to have to > wade through a tide of irrelevant flotsam and jetsam. Having the > facility of a list of this nature would have the effect of > really cleaning up the archives. > > Non productive O.T. threads could, with the consensus of three > other list members (to avoid personality clash scenarios) for > example, could be migrated to the proposed list, leaving the > main list to proceed productively, maintaining the integrity of > the archive. If the thread becomes too off the wall for the new > list, and after an initial negotiation fails, the > personality(ies) could be unsubscribed. I believe the new list > could be as productively essential as any other in its' own way, > I do not see it as the dumping ground for the collective Debian > effluviant, just a little further down the alimentary tract > perhaps ; > > > > As a repository for, and discussion arena of current news and > affairs relevant to our industry, e.g., Microsofts' latest > strategy, SCOs' gymnastics, the latest W.S.I.S. Conference > moves, and etc. > > Debian is a community, but as such is also part of the greater > community and not isolated from it. This world awareness could > subtly enhance a wide number of Debian community aspects from > programming direction to security. It would also create a > resource for such entities as Debian Weekly; > > > > There are other things that could be put forward as viable reasons for > the establishment of a list of this nature. I have only elaborated to > the extent th
Easing the load.
I have seen what I believe is a need for an additional mailing list, not so much for the benefit of the developers' list, but most definitely for the sake of sanity on debian-user. I have posted to curiosain recognition of their patience with an O.T. situation. The following layout is for initial discussion only,pending the full application being tendered as a wishlist bug report. Thanking you for your attention. Mailing List Request. Basic Purpose:- For this list, is multi-part. A need is seen, within the context of Debian, for a repository for all discussions and notifications that are not list specific. It could be argued here that if a subject is not list-specific, it has no place in the list. Allow me to supply some examples:- A notification on Debian-User of a new worm variant that sys. admins on the list require notice of, as they are running Debian servers supporting windows boxes also munging the mail headers/filters of the developer who is on the list to supply advice; Discussions that become O.T., that although they are not technical in nature enhance and enforce the community nature of Debian. They occur, so therefore members feel the need for the interaction, this would strengthen the community as a community. This is especially noticeable on lists with a broad spectrum sociological diversity such as Debian -User. I am not referring here, to the inconsequential drivel that arises from those entities that require a stage to prance on with a captive audience to assuage the requirements imposed by attention deficiency, there have been conversations initiated within the disciplines of philosophy and psychology/sociology, for example, and it is to these I refer. The other variety would get as short shrift on the new list as being as unproductive as they are in any other environment. There are many highly qualified people in the community, physicists, mathematicians, et al, who, if they had the option of taking part in non-debian discussion, could ironically generate new directions within Debian. For example, there are a number of packages of a mathematical nature within the Debian programme, these could well be collated into a sub-project. The type of list structure that I advocate conceivably forming a wellspring for projects of this nature; As a migration point for O.T. threads that are creating a distraction within the main lists. There are two aspects to this:- (1). The distracting, disruptive influence just stated, and (2). The carry over and clutter created within the corresponding archive. The last thing a busy admin needs when a server is down, and she requires the answer to a problem, is to have to wade through a tide of irrelevant flotsam and jetsam. Having the facility of a list of this nature would have the effect of really cleaning up the archives. Non productive O.T. threads could, with the consensus of three other list members (to avoid personality clash scenarios) for example, could be migrated to the proposed list, leaving the main list to proceed productively, maintaining the integrity of the archive. If the thread becomes too off the wall for the new list, and after an initial negotiation fails, the personality(ies) could be unsubscribed. I believe the new list could be as productively essential as any other in its' own way, I do not see it as the dumping ground for the collective Debian effluviant, just a little further down the alimentary tract perhaps ; As a repository for, and discussion arena of current news and affairs relevant to our industry, e.g., Microsofts' latest strategy, SCOs' gymnastics, the latest W.S.I.S. Conference moves, and etc. Debian is a community, but as such is also part of the greater community and not isolated from it. This world awareness could subtly enhance a wide number of Debian community aspects from programming direction to security. It would also create a resource for such entities as Debian Weekly; There are other things that could be put forward as viable reasons for the establishment of a list of this nature. I have only elaborated to the extent that I have to illustrate the productive potential of this venture, and the associated value it could present to the Debian project, so as to avoid the hasty labeling of the situation as 'vanity or offtopic.' Interested Audience. I'm sure that the number of O.T. threads in the lists are indicative of the ability of this new list to esta
