Re: Frustration made me do it.

[godo]

On 12/14/2010 08:21 AM, Claudius Hubig wrote:

godo  wrote:



Strange, in Opera 10.63 I get the full URL in the address bar; and, if I
hover the mouse pointer over the link, I also get the full URL in the
status bar at the bottom of the screen.

Is there a change in Opera 11?



Yes, I have 11.0 beta:
Opera/9.80 (X11; Linux i686; U; en) Presto/2.7.39 Version/11.00


You can change that setting in opera:config.

Best regards,

Claudius


Thanks!
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Claudius Hubig]

godo  wrote:
>
>> Strange, in Opera 10.63 I get the full URL in the address bar; and, if I
>> hover the mouse pointer over the link, I also get the full URL in the
>> status bar at the bottom of the screen.
>>
>> Is there a change in Opera 11?
>>
>>
>Yes, I have 11.0 beta:
>Opera/9.80 (X11; Linux i686; U; en) Presto/2.7.39 Version/11.00

You can change that setting in opera:config.

Best regards,

Claudius
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[godo]

On 12/13/2010 11:34 PM, Paul Cartwright wrote:

On 12/13/2010 03:46 PM, godo wrote:

Opera is ok except one future I really don't like and it will be in
Firefox4 also.
When I open goole.com, type debian and go to page 10 I will not see in
URL feeld
"http://www.google.hr/search?q=debian&hl=hr&prmd=ivl&ei=MYQGTbmtD4iYOuGc6aYB&start=90&sa=N";
but "www.google.com/search"

I really hate that because 2 feature that i really love/need in any
browser are exact link location and pointing mouse over link printing
URL in browsers status bar.


in Opera 11 beta I see the complete URL at the bottom of opera..



Me to, that part of my comment was for Firefox4.

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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Paul Cartwright]

On 12/13/2010 03:46 PM, godo wrote:
> Opera is ok except one future I really don't like and it will be in
> Firefox4 also.
> When I open goole.com, type debian and go to page 10 I will not see in
> URL feeld
> "http://www.google.hr/search?q=debian&hl=hr&prmd=ivl&ei=MYQGTbmtD4iYOuGc6aYB&start=90&sa=N";
> but "www.google.com/search"
> 
> I really hate that because 2 feature that i really love/need in any
> browser are exact link location and pointing mouse over link printing
> URL in browsers status bar.

in Opera 11 beta I see the complete URL at the bottom of opera..


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[godo]

Strange, in Opera 10.63 I get the full URL in the address bar; and, if I
hover the mouse pointer over the link, I also get the full URL in the
status bar at the bottom of the screen.

Is there a change in Opera 11?



Yes, I have 11.0 beta:
Opera/9.80 (X11; Linux i686; U; en) Presto/2.7.39 Version/11.00

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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Tixy]

On Mon, 2010-12-13 at 21:46 +0100, godo wrote: 
> Opera is ok except one future I really don't like and it will be in 
> Firefox4 also.
> When I open goole.com, type debian and go to page 10 I will not see in 
> URL feeld 
> "http://www.google.hr/search?q=debian&hl=hr&prmd=ivl&ei=MYQGTbmtD4iYOuGc6aYB&start=90&sa=N";
>  
> but "www.google.com/search"

Strange, in Opera 10.63 I get the full URL in the address bar; and, if I
hover the mouse pointer over the link, I also get the full URL in the
status bar at the bottom of the screen.

Is there a change in Opera 11?


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[godo]

Linux Desktop Enviroments need to stop trying to compete to impress
microsoft users and N00b's and stick to what Linux is all about,
clean, efficient, FAST! If people really feel they NEED desktop
widgets either make it add on software or make a third party desktop
environment based off the main environment. The way it is now KDE and
Gnome, the two biggest are competing for 'most bloat award' and the
sleek fast environments like lxde are basing their systems off the
giants so all the real customization of the past is just plain
gone...

STOP LETTING N00b's DEFINE OUR OS!

Okay, I'm done...



Sadly, that's  quite true.
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[godo]

what about Opera.. just asking :)


Opera is ok except one future I really don't like and it will be in 
Firefox4 also.
When I open goole.com, type debian and go to page 10 I will not see in 
URL feeld 
"http://www.google.hr/search?q=debian&hl=hr&prmd=ivl&ei=MYQGTbmtD4iYOuGc6aYB&start=90&sa=N"; 
but "www.google.com/search"


I really hate that because 2 feature that i really love/need in any 
browser are exact link location and pointing mouse over link printing 
URL in browsers status bar.


Firefox4 will "mouse over link" print next to real URL (in URL field) 
and not in status bar and that's really sucks if you don’t have 24" monitor.

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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Paul Cartwright]

On 12/08/2010 04:29 PM, tv.deb...@googlemail.com wrote:
> Opera is slower when loading the same tabs set, especially heavy flash
> content. On the good side it showed the best behaviour when it comes to
> java applet test (a secure bank login applet), but consumed crazy
> amounts of memory in this situation (blame is more on Java I guess).
> Chromium just fails on the java applet test, maybe due to a rejected
> user agent string ?

so... Opera actually worked on some sites where Chromium did not. Chrome
works for My bank, because I use it daily.. and of course I have the
opera beta::-)
Opera/9.80 (X11; Linux i686; U; en) Presto/2.7.39 Version/11.00


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[tv.deb...@googlemail.com]

08/12/2010 14:46, Paul Cartwright wrote:
>> On 12/08/2010 03:44 AM, tv.deb...@googlemail.com wrote:
>> Overall chromium has a small edge, but not very noticeable here. I use
>> both happily anyway !
>>
> what about Opera.. just asking :)
> 
> 

Well, what about it then ? ;-)

I don't use Opera since "aptitude install opera" doesn't work, and I am
lazy, and also a bit worried to do my web browsing with a closed source
browser (which include built-in p2p "sharing" feature as I read ?).

I gave it a quick try out of curiosity (didn't like the way it drops a
file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d  without displaying a blood red warning
to ask me if I was willing to accept it, seems to be a trend, google is
doing the same).

First my eyes popped out:

t...@deblove:~$ smem -nktP [o]pera
  PID User Command USS  PSS  RSS
 5662 1000 /usr/lib/opera//operaplugin148.0K  165.0K   884.0K
 5661 1000 /usr/lib/opera//operaplugin 19.9M   20.5M26.0M
 5367 1000 /usr/lib/opera/opera   171.5M  172.6M   187.6M
 5796 1000 /usr/lib/opera//operaplugin201.1M  204.4M   214.8M
---
  107 1   392.7M   397.6M   429.2M


t...@deblove:~$ smem -nktP [c]hromium
  PID User Command USS  PSS  RSS
 6646 1000 /usr/lib/chromium-browser/c 1.0M 5.2M15.9M
 6752 1000 /usr/lib/chromium-browser/c46.4M50.9M69.1M
 6644 1000 /usr/lib/chromium-browser/c46.2M55.4M84.6M
---
  107 1   93.6M   111.4M   169.7M

Then after investigating the situation it appeared that java plug-in is
loaded for no good reason in Opera and sucks up a lot of memory,
sometimes only. Here is a result when java isn't interfering :

t...@deblove:~$ smem -nktP [o]pera
  PID User Command USS  PSS  RSS
 8222 1000 /usr/lib/opera//operaplugin 144.0K   167.0K   880.0K
 8221 1000 /usr/lib/opera//operaplugin  82.9M85.3M93.5M
 7933 1000 /usr/lib/opera/opera154.0M   155.1M   168.9M
---
   91 1237.0M   240.6M   263.3M

Keep in mind that I didn't reset my default chromium profile, so it has
several extensions Opera doesn't have. Every "blocker" extension in
chromium was disabled though (flash and adds).

Opera is slower when loading the same tabs set, especially heavy flash
content. On the good side it showed the best behaviour when it comes to
java applet test (a secure bank login applet), but consumed crazy
amounts of memory in this situation (blame is more on Java I guess).
Chromium just fails on the java applet test, maybe due to a rejected
user agent string ?

Opera version was 10.63.6450, chromium is from experimental version
9.0.587.0~r66374-1.

System is Squeeze/Sid/experimental amd64, flash is native amd64 "square"
beta.

This is Iceweasel (experimental 3.6.12-2) on the same tabs set:

t...@deblove:~$ smem -nktP [f]irefox
  PID User CommandUSS  PSS  RSS
 9203 1000 /usr/lib/iceweasel/firefox-139.9M   145.9M   162.6M
---
   77 1   139.9M   145.9M   162.6M



If we want to do something like a debian-user-list-browser-benchmark we
should agree on a list of urls to test with, maybe 10-12 tabs should be
enough, tools and protocol. I won't give my list since it includes my
Christmas shopping, my bank, and a few controversial politicly incorrect
urls like http://wiki.debian.org/DebianArt/Themes/SpaceFun ;-) (love
what they did).

Cheers.


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Javier Vasquez]

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Paul Cartwright  wrote:
> On 12/08/2010 03:44 AM, tv.deb...@googlemail.com wrote:
>> Overall chromium has a small edge, but not very noticeable here. I use
>> both happily anyway !
>>
> what about Opera.. just asking :)
>
>
> --
> Paul Cartwright
> Registered Linux user # 367800

Also, Midori?  just kidding, :-)  Midori doesn't have support for
everything Iceweasel and Chromium do, :-)

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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Paul Cartwright]

On 12/08/2010 03:44 AM, tv.deb...@googlemail.com wrote:
> Overall chromium has a small edge, but not very noticeable here. I use
> both happily anyway !
> 
what about Opera.. just asking :)


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[tv.deb...@googlemail.com]

08/12/2010 06:46, Miles Bader wrote:
> Camaleón  writes:
>> Mozilla products are memory/CPU hogs, yes. I hope newer versions can 
>> correct that.
> 
> I find that chromium actually seems to use _more_ memory for a given
> amount of content.
> 
> However with chromium it's really easy to reduce the usage by closing
> tabs; with FF (etc) that doesn't work.
> 
> -Miles
> 

I have the same experience, since I read this thread I did a bit of
testing with Chromium and Iceweasel from squeeze and experimental. Most
of the time memory use is a bit lower with chromium though, but it uses
more ram when loading content.
Also when looking at chromium ram usage top isn't the right tool,
chromium starts many threads (that's one of it's core feature) so using
something like "smem" and comparing RSS values might be more accurate (I
used "smem -tkP [c]hromium", adding "-m" option to have a closer look at
extensions memory use).

But even looking at the whole session memory usage there isn't a big
difference here (kde, cold start with empty session, only one browser
started, same tabs for each browser, changing tabs content after a few
try). Also did tests with a few extensions that perform the same duty in
each browser (like ad-blocking, flash blocking, session and cookies
management), I couldn't see a major difference between the two.

Chromium does load content a bit faster most of the time, but uses more
memory to do so. Caching is about the same for the two browsers.
No memory leak in sight with any of these two, even after a full day,
both give memory back when closed equally but Chromium gives some back
when in use (closing tabs, loading less "intensive" content...),
iceweasel only gives back smaller amounts in the same situations.
Iceweasel memory usage is more "flat" during browsing sessions when
chromium is adjusting better.

Overall chromium has a small edge, but not very noticeable here. I use
both happily anyway !


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Miles Bader]

Camaleón  writes:
> Mozilla products are memory/CPU hogs, yes. I hope newer versions can 
> correct that.

I find that chromium actually seems to use _more_ memory for a given
amount of content.

However with chromium it's really easy to reduce the usage by closing
tabs; with FF (etc) that doesn't work.

-Miles

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Re: Chromium addons (was Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2010-11-23, Klistvud  wrote:
> Dne, 23. 11. 2010 15:00:59 je Celejar napisal(a):
>
>> I use Privoxy - not as user friendly as the plugins, but it will work
>> across all your browsers, is much more powerful (IIUC), and has no  
>> risk
>> of increasing browser bloat or instability, or becoming incompatible
>> with future browser versions.
>
> I use squid3. It will work across all the browsers across all the  
> machines on your LAN; you only have one central point of configuration  
> (and of failure), which immensely reduces overhead. In addition, squid  
> may be configured to cache your web access, making it snappier.

I use privoxy chained with squid. Best of both worlds :-)

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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Celejar]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:59:18 -0800
Kelly Clowers  wrote:

...

> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 18:02, Celejar  wrote:

...

> > My policy, for stability and privacy, is to run two instances of FF.
> > My main one has no scripting allowed (NoScript with basically no
> > exceptions - perhaps I should just entirely turn off Javascript in FF),
> > no Flash, no cookies, etc.  I tend to keep dozens of tabs open here.
> > My secondary has some scripting (managed with NoScript), Flash (managed
> > with FlashBlock) and cookies on a case by case basis.  I generally keep
> > very few windows open at a time, and quite frequently clear all private
> > data.
> 
> Why bother with Flashblock? AFAIK NoScript is more flexible than Flashblock
> at blocking Flash.

Perhaps if I took the time and effort to become more adept at using
NoScript that would work, but in the mean time, there are many sites
for which I want to allow basic Javascript functionality, but still
block Flash, except perhaps on a case by case basis.  So I tell NS to
allow scripting, and then let Flashblock manage the Flash.  I'll have
to look into using NoScript for Flash management.

Celejar
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Re: Chromium addons (was Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Celejar]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:22:49 +0100
Klistvud  wrote:

> Dne, 23. 11. 2010 15:00:59 je Celejar napisal(a):
> 
> > I use Privoxy - not as user friendly as the plugins, but it will work
> > across all your browsers, is much more powerful (IIUC), and has no  
> > risk
> > of increasing browser bloat or instability, or becoming incompatible
> > with future browser versions.
> 
> I use squid3. It will work across all the browsers across all the  
> machines on your LAN; you only have one central point of configuration  
> (and of failure), which immensely reduces overhead. In addition, squid  
> may be configured to cache your web access, making it snappier.

I chain privoxy and squid.  I don't know much about configuring squid
for ad blocking, etc., and I just use squid out of the box.

Celejar
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Kelly Clowers]

On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 14:55,   wrote:
>
> Example, Lxde doesn't have the bloat of KDE4, but is still running ontop
> of the same core enviroment of the KDE system native to the OS, (e.g.
> Lxde in squeeze has the same underlying and crappy menu and
> configuration systems at KDE4, trying to tweek the system is like going
> on a major quest and it doesn't have anywhere near the customization
> options KDE3 had.)

Totally wrong. LXDE is Openbox and some other things, nothing at all
to do with KDE, either 3 or 4. If anything, it has slightly more to do with
Gnome, as it uses GTK apps.


On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 18:02, Celejar  wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 00:35:37 +
> Nuno Magalhães  wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> I use Iceweasel with ADP and NoScript and that's it. Sometimes i get
>> in trouble with flash-sites and sometimes my cpu will spike 'cos of
>> some tab, but i think it's the most all-round browser i have. I'll use
>> 30 tabs max, and don't like to keep flash tabs open, so i can't say i
>> use it extensively.

I guess it is the difference between mainline and IW, but I never see
actual stability issues until >100 tabs. Maybe with a lot of Flash, but
not even then since OOPP showed up.

> My policy, for stability and privacy, is to run two instances of FF.
> My main one has no scripting allowed (NoScript with basically no
> exceptions - perhaps I should just entirely turn off Javascript in FF),
> no Flash, no cookies, etc.  I tend to keep dozens of tabs open here.
> My secondary has some scripting (managed with NoScript), Flash (managed
> with FlashBlock) and cookies on a case by case basis.  I generally keep
> very few windows open at a time, and quite frequently clear all private
> data.

Why bother with Flashblock? AFAIK NoScript is more flexible than Flashblock
at blocking Flash.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Chromium addons (was Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Klistvud]

Dne, 23. 11. 2010 15:00:59 je Celejar napisal(a):


I use Privoxy - not as user friendly as the plugins, but it will work
across all your browsers, is much more powerful (IIUC), and has no  
risk

of increasing browser bloat or instability, or becoming incompatible
with future browser versions.


I use squid3. It will work across all the browsers across all the  
machines on your LAN; you only have one central point of configuration  
(and of failure), which immensely reduces overhead. In addition, squid  
may be configured to cache your web access, making it snappier.


--
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Klistvud  
http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com
Certifiable Loonix User #481801  Please reply to the list, not to  
me.



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Re: Chromium addons (was Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Celejar]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 19:29:31 +0800
Jason Heeris  wrote:

> On 23 November 2010 19:13, Ron Johnson  wrote:
> > So, how effective are ABP and Flashblock?  I read once that the Chrome ABP
> > doesn't actually *block* ads from loading but simply prevents them from
> > being displayed.
> 
> That was the case some time ago, but according to the plugin site[1]
> 
> New in version 2.0:  Ads are actually blocked from downloading
> now, instead of just being removed after the fact!
> 
> I've also tried AdThwart, but went back to AdBlock (I can't actually
> remember why), and it works for me on slow connections.

I use Privoxy - not as user friendly as the plugins, but it will work
across all your browsers, is much more powerful (IIUC), and has no risk
of increasing browser bloat or instability, or becoming incompatible
with future browser versions.

Celejar
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Celejar]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 04:54:49 -0600
Ron Johnson  wrote:

> On 11/21/2010 08:02 PM, Celejar wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> > My policy, for stability and privacy, is to run two instances of FF.
> 
> Using this?
> $ iceweasel -no-remote -P secondprofilename

Exactly (with an & at the end ;)).

>From my .bashrc :

alias ic="iceweasel -P default -no-remote &"
alias iu="iceweasel -P Unprivate -no-remote &"

Celejar
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2010-11-18 21:37:32 -0800, Dan Serban wrote:
> I now have chromium and claws at my beck and call.  Man.. are they
> ever fast.

But Chromium (actually WebKit) is broken. For instance, it can't parse

  http://www.vinc17.net/

I ported the upstream patch to Debian at the end of August[*], but
the package is still unfixed.

[*] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=565992#50

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Re: Chromium addons (was Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Angus Hedger]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 05:13:53 -0600
Ron Johnson  wrote:

> On 11/18/2010 11:37 PM, Dan Serban wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> > I now have chromium and claws at my beck and call.  Man.. are they
> > ever fast.
> >
> 
> So, how effective are ABP and Flashblock?  I read once that the 
> Chrome ABP doesn't actually *block* ads from loading but simply 
> prevents them from being displayed.

Nowadays the addblocker stops downloading, and the flashblock works
perfectly.

> Also, anyone with experience with these plugins (which *I* consider 
> essential, though some may find heresy)?
> 
>acroread

Should work fine

>Java

works here

>MozPlugger

no idea

>OOo

no idea

>Flash 10.0r45

works fine

>Silverlight 3.0.4x

works fine

>VLC

should work fine


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Re: Chromium addons (was Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Paul Cartwright]

On 11/23/2010 06:13 AM, Ron Johnson wrote:
> Also, anyone with experience with these plugins (which *I* consider
> essential, though some may find heresy)?
>
>   acroread
>   Java
>   MozPlugger
>   OOo
>   Flash 10.0r45
>   Silverlight 3.0.4x
>   VLC
are you talking about Firefox or Chromium? in my Chromium ( which I now
use in Thunderbird as the default web browser when I click on a link) I
have these extensions:

AdBlock
 
- Version: 2.2.12

Forecastfox Weather
 
- Version: 1.5.12

Hulu - TV Shows
 
- Version: 1.5.3
( ok, never used it, forgot I even installed it)


Hyperwords
 
- Version: 2.9.0

Novell Moonlight - Version: 2.3

Ultimate Google Docs Viewer
 
- Version: 0.8.4.7


youtube works ( who is Justin Bieber, and why should I care:)
 

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Re: Chromium addons (was Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Jason Heeris]

On 23 November 2010 19:13, Ron Johnson  wrote:
> So, how effective are ABP and Flashblock?  I read once that the Chrome ABP
> doesn't actually *block* ads from loading but simply prevents them from
> being displayed.

That was the case some time ago, but according to the plugin site[1]

New in version 2.0:  Ads are actually blocked from downloading
now, instead of just being removed after the fact!

I've also tried AdThwart, but went back to AdBlock (I can't actually
remember why), and it works for me on slow connections.

HTH,
— Jason

PS. The downside to ABP working properly now is that we'll no longer
see those ridiculous conspiracy theories and resulting flamewars about
why Google was so slow to implement the necessary API...


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Chromium addons (was Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Ron Johnson]

On 11/18/2010 11:37 PM, Dan Serban wrote:
[snip]


I now have chromium and claws at my beck and call.  Man.. are they
ever fast.



So, how effective are ABP and Flashblock?  I read once that the 
Chrome ABP doesn't actually *block* ads from loading but simply 
prevents them from being displayed.


Also, anyone with experience with these plugins (which *I* consider 
essential, though some may find heresy)?


  acroread
  Java
  MozPlugger
  OOo
  Flash 10.0r45
  Silverlight 3.0.4x
  VLC



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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Ron Johnson]

On 11/21/2010 08:02 PM, Celejar wrote:
[snip]


My policy, for stability and privacy, is to run two instances of FF.


Using this?
$ iceweasel -no-remote -P secondprofilename

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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Celejar]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:21:23 + (UTC)
Camaleón  wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:13:24 -0500, Celejar wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:03:44 + (UTC) Camaleón wrote:
> > 
> >> Mozilla products are memory/CPU hogs, yes. I hope newer versions can
> >> correct that.
> > 
> > I often wonder about this; IIRC, FF used to advertise itself as
> > "lightweight".  Does it still do that?  Was it ever accurate?
> 
> I'm not in the best position to speak about Mozilla products because I 
> wouldn't be objective (still using old versions of both, Iceweasel 
> -3.0.x- and Icedove -2.x-) but true is that Mozilla products (Netscape 
> Navigator suite) has never been known by its good management of memory :-)
> 
> Is Firefox "lightweight"? Well, it has a small footprint in the system 
> (~10 MiB, which is not bad for what provides), but overall I'd say "no". 
> I've worked with konqueror (and now also Epiphany) and konqueror 
> performed a better job in many aspects, not only with memory management.
> 
> top - 00:18:38 up 16:27,  2 users,  load average: 0.12, 0.03, 0.01
> Tasks: 131 total,   3 running, 128 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie
> Cpu(s):  1.1%us,  0.2%sy,  0.0%ni, 98.6%id,  0.0%wa,  0.0%hi,  0.0%si,  0.0%st
> Mem:   8201264k total,  1536164k used,  6665100k free,54368k buffers
> Swap:  2104472k total,0k used,  2104472k free,   832752k cached
> 
> 3369 sm01  20   0  548m 113m  25m S0  1.4   3:19.36 liferea-bin   
>
> 3466 sm01  20   0  624m 107m  28m S0  1.3   2:52.77 icedove-bin   
>
> 9712 sm01  20   0  558m 101m  24m S0  1.3   0:19.99 firefox-bin  
> ...
> 
> "200" MiB of ram for just 2 applications (mozilla based) is excessive. And 
> I only have 2 tabs opened :-/

Interesting, thanks.  I see similar numbers (although I have many tabs
open), but I've never used any other browsers on a regular basis.

Celejar
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Celejar]

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 18:09:05 -0600
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."  wrote:

> In <20101120185835.2915d9d3.cele...@gmail.com>, Celejar wrote:
> >On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:26:43 -0600
> >"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."  wrote:
> >> Much of the memory usage can be blamed on aggressive per-tab caching of
> >> webpages and/or extensions or plugins.  Still, I find FF to cause me more
> >> problems than my other browser options, but having it around is essential
> >> for some sites, it seems.
> >> 
> >> I still prefer konqueror, or chromium-browser if konqueror doesn't work on
> >> a certain site.  Still, I find myself using FF + ABP on a few
> >> flash-ad-ridden sites.
> >
> >I have resisted installing konq, since I don't use KDE, and I have a
> >perhaps irrational resistance to installing that first KDE package that
> >will drag in all sorts of KDE libs and stuff.
> 
> Maybe it is irrational, but I don't really see a good reason to use Konq if 
> you don't use KDE.  I've used KDE since 3.3, and enjoy the level of 
> integration.  If you don't benefit from the integration, it's just an aging 
> browser, though there is on-going work to make it more modern without losing 
> the integration.

So that's pretty much what I felt.
 
> There are other WebKit-based browsers besides Chromium out there and there 
> are 
> other Gecko-based browsers besides FireFox / IceWeasel out there.  By 
> experimenting you may find one that is less bad for you than FireFox.
> 
> Finally, if you need a browser that doesn't cost anything, even if it is not 
> Free Software, Opera is supposed to be fairly good, and I think they even 
> have 
> .debs available.  I used it as my primary browser before switching to Linux 
> (and mostly Free Software) and I actually found it much more usable than both 
> IE6 and whatever Mozilla product was available at the time.

I'm not a FLOSS fanatic, but I'd prefer FLOSS, and I'd really rather
not install stuff from outside the Debian repos where possible.

Celejar
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Celejar]

On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 00:35:37 +
Nuno Magalhães  wrote:

...

> I use Iceweasel with ADP and NoScript and that's it. Sometimes i get
> in trouble with flash-sites and sometimes my cpu will spike 'cos of
> some tab, but i think it's the most all-round browser i have. I'll use
> 30 tabs max, and don't like to keep flash tabs open, so i can't say i
> use it extensively.

My policy, for stability and privacy, is to run two instances of FF.
My main one has no scripting allowed (NoScript with basically no
exceptions - perhaps I should just entirely turn off Javascript in FF),
no Flash, no cookies, etc.  I tend to keep dozens of tabs open here.
My secondary has some scripting (managed with NoScript), Flash (managed
with FlashBlock) and cookies on a case by case basis.  I generally keep
very few windows open at a time, and quite frequently clear all private
data.

Celejar
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[teddieeb]

Below...

> If people really feel they NEED desktop
> widgets either make it add on software or make a third party desktop
> environment based off the main environment. The way it is now KDE and
> Gnome, the two biggest are competing for 'most bloat award' and the
> sleek fast environments like lxde are basing their systems off the
> giants so all the real customization of the past is just plain gone...

>No one is forcing anyone to use a DE.  There are quite a few window
>managers out there, and tons of X apps, that let you set up your box
>anyway you want.  Why should Linux have to change?  Isn't
"accommodating pretty much >everyone" a good enough basis for an os?


My complaint is that Linux IS and HAS changed. Correct nobody forces anybody to 
use a specific DE, but I would like somebody to show me a Linux DE that is 
current, well featured, and NOT based off the current core systems of KDE4 or 
Gnome. Example, Lxde doesn't have the bloat of KDE4, but is still running ontop 
of the same core enviroment of the KDE system native to the OS, (e.g. Lxde in 
squeeze has the same underlying and crappy menu and configuration systems at 
KDE4, trying to tweek the system is like going on a major quest and it doesn't 
have anywhere near the customization options KDE3 had.) 

As I said, It HAS changed. Change is inevitable, and some change is good, but 
in the desktop environment world you are still limited in style and 
configuration/functionality options to an ever narrowing scope.

And as far as being everything to everyone, you can't. It is impossible to 
bloat a system into oblivion in an effort to impress desktop users without 
ticking off the server crowd who just want systems to run effectively and 
securely on even mediocre hardware.
(Just because their servers, and we administer CLi doesn't mean we don't use 
GUI's or like to tweek our desktops)

Let us not forget where Linux came from. The server crowd is our bread and 
butter, we don't need every microsoft user on Linux and the pursuit of such is 
only going to ruin what we have. 

There are other *NIX's out there and vieing to be what Linux is.

TeddyB  

Re: Frustration made me do it.

[debian]

On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 20:20:39 +
teddi...@tmo.blackberry.net wrote:

> ...
> Linux Desktop Enviroments need to stop trying to compete to impress
> microsoft users and N00b's and stick to what Linux is all about,
> clean, efficient, FAST!

Why?  Linux can (and does) do both... and quite well.

> If people really feel they NEED desktop
> widgets either make it add on software or make a third party desktop
> environment based off the main environment. The way it is now KDE and
> Gnome, the two biggest are competing for 'most bloat award' and the
> sleek fast environments like lxde are basing their systems off the
> giants so all the real customization of the past is just plain gone...

No one is forcing anyone to use a DE.  There are quite a few window
managers out there, and tons of X apps, that let you set up your box
anyway you want.  Why should Linux have to change?  Isn't
"accommodating pretty much everyone" a good enough basis for an os?

> STOP LETTING N00b's DEFINE OUR OS!

They do not!   


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Andrei Popescu]

On Du, 21 nov 10, 12:19:56, Matthias Andersson wrote:
> On 11/21/2010 09:56 AM, bri...@aracnet.com wrote:
> > claws-mail is fantastic, I would like to encourage others to give it a
> > try.  Fast and powerful.
> 
> I have installed claws-mail to try it out - now there's the question
> regarding exporting the mail from Thunderbird3 to claws. I've googled
> about it and found out that there is no native support for exporting
> mail in TB, an add-on ImportExportTools was found which would do that
> but TB refused to install it.

With claws-mail-mailmbox-plugin you can use TBird's mailboxes directly 
;)

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[teddieeb]

I agree Nuno Magalhães;

I use to use KDE, I loved the incredible functionality and customization you 
got from it. Now I've switched to Lxde, not because I like it, but because KDE4 
is complete tripe, sure it looks pretty, but there is really no customization 
to it, which background image do you want, and that's it. With KDE3 you could 
take two colors, make an effect, overlay an image, and do a transparency or 
color shift all on the fly, and it was efficient. Now you got this plasma crap 
that eats resources like their M&M's whether you use it or not.

Granted the little tools docked on your desktop is nice, at first, but in the 
long run they don't get used and it comes down to a nice eye candy interface, 
where every desktop looks just the same.

On a more personal scale I also used KDE because I didn't like trying to Guess 
which menu system 'dialogue box' an option was in. The KDE control center was 
intuitive and well organized. 

Linux Desktop Enviroments need to stop trying to compete to impress microsoft 
users and N00b's and stick to what Linux is all about, clean, efficient, FAST! 
If people really feel they NEED desktop widgets either make it add on software 
or make a third party desktop environment based off the main environment. The 
way it is now KDE and Gnome, the two biggest are competing for 'most bloat 
award' and the sleek fast environments like lxde are basing their systems off 
the giants so all the real customization of the past is just plain gone...

STOP LETTING N00b's DEFINE OUR OS!

Okay, I'm done... 


-Original Message-
From: Nuno Magalhães 
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 18:42:01 
To: debian-user
Subject: Re: Frustration made me do it.

On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 11:45, Alan Chandler  wrote:
>> My machine
>> is an older desktop with only 1 Gb of RAM

Have big applications like office suites, internet browsers and the
like added so many more features that a "mere" 1GB of RAM doesn't
suffice?! Isn't Web2.0's structure mostly text-based? The bandwith
hogs are multimedia and that's out of the box.

I remember when i had a functioning windowmaker desktop with a 96MB
PII back in '99. Maybe they're comming out of school thinking
programming is IDE drag-n-drop and python-style "print this" programs.
I don't understand why must software grow with no added content, just
because the hardware is more capable. What's next, a 900MB simple text
editor?! But i never liked resource-hogs anyway.



--
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/etc


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[gun_smoke]

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 11:56:49PM -0800, bri...@aracnet.com wrote:
> 
> claws-mail is fantastic, I would like to encourage others to give it a
> try.  Fast and powerful.
> 
> 
> Brian

Since this thread has started I decided to give claws a go. From what I've
messed with so far it seems nice. I would like to find a nice gmail/claws
write up as that is what I use for my main email. For the list stuff, mutt
in this free shell is perfect.


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 11:45, Alan Chandler  wrote:
>> My machine
>> is an older desktop with only 1 Gb of RAM

Have big applications like office suites, internet browsers and the
like added so many more features that a "mere" 1GB of RAM doesn't
suffice?! Isn't Web2.0's structure mostly text-based? The bandwith
hogs are multimedia and that's out of the box.

I remember when i had a functioning windowmaker desktop with a 96MB
PII back in '99. Maybe they're comming out of school thinking
programming is IDE drag-n-drop and python-style "print this" programs.
I don't understand why must software grow with no added content, just
because the hardware is more capable. What's next, a 900MB simple text
editor?! But i never liked resource-hogs anyway.



-- 
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/etc


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Kelly Clowers]

2010/11/20 Nuno Magalhães :
>
>I've read nice stuff about dillo (which rendering engine?),
>but haven't tried it.

It uses it's own rendering engine, which is very limited
compared to the big 4 (modern Gecko, Webkit, Presto
and Trident).


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Alan Chandler]

On 21/11/10 10:19, Matthias Andersson wrote:

On 11/21/2010 09:56 AM, bri...@aracnet.com wrote:

claws-mail is fantastic, I would like to encourage others to give it a
try.  Fast and powerful.



I have installed claws-mail to try it out - now there's the question
regarding exporting the mail from Thunderbird3 to claws. I've googled
about it and found out that there is no native support for exporting
mail in TB, an add-on ImportExportTools was found which would do that
but TB refused to install it.

I'm sick and tired of the huge memory appetite that TB shows. My machine
is an older desktop with only 1 Gb of RAM and can therefore ill
affafford to let one application hog 60-65% of it.


Just set up an IMAP server and copy all your mail to it in one 
application and load it back in another.




--
Alan Chandler
http://www.chandlerfamily.org.uk


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Matthias Andersson]

On 11/21/2010 09:56 AM, bri...@aracnet.com wrote:
> claws-mail is fantastic, I would like to encourage others to give it a
> try.  Fast and powerful.


I have installed claws-mail to try it out - now there's the question
regarding exporting the mail from Thunderbird3 to claws. I've googled
about it and found out that there is no native support for exporting
mail in TB, an add-on ImportExportTools was found which would do that
but TB refused to install it.

I'm sick and tired of the huge memory appetite that TB shows. My machine
is an older desktop with only 1 Gb of RAM and can therefore ill
affafford to let one application hog 60-65% of it.

Cheers,
Matthias


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[briand]

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 21:37:32 -0800
Dan Serban  wrote:


> I now have chromium and claws at my beck and call.  Man.. are they
> ever fast.

I assume you are referring to claws-mail ?

claws-mail is fantastic, I would like to encourage others to give it a
try.  Fast and powerful.


Brian


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[teddieeb]

You know; I have to side with Sthu on this. I run a testing install on my AMD 
64 3200+ which is maxed out at two gigs of ram.

My system runs fine without any problems and I use Ice Weasel, mind you, I also 
save bookmarks and such and though I run some tab nowhere near 200. Though I 
also often run Virtual Machines and the like which are a far larger resource 
hog.

IDK, I understand the idea of resource bloat, but if you have 8 GIGs of RAM, I 
just don't see how a 200mb footprint is a problem.

TeddyB


P.S. Sorry for the CC Sthu, didn't mean to, noticed after the fact.

-Original Message-
From: Sthu Deus 
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:50:11 
To: 
Subject: Re: Frustration made me do it.

Dan Serban wrote:

> > I will spare you the minute details for my decision, but I assume
> > most of you experience the same frustrations I do.  The increasing
> > bloat, the never enough memory (16gb real, 32gb swap) being happily
> > claimed by a single tab and xul-runner eating it all.

I use FF only, and have much less memory parameters - yet never had
any problem like that.

Of course it is up to You what You do w/ the software You've
once installed, but let it be at least known to You that the reasons
You've brought here just are no essential or in other words, not
Mozilla-specific.

Have a good day.


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 00:09, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
 wrote:
> There are other WebKit-based browsers besides Chromium out there and there are
> other Gecko-based browsers besides FireFox / IceWeasel out there.  By
> experimenting you may find one that is less bad for you than FireFox.

Kazehakase uses Gecko or WebKit; midori uses webkit. Neither are
stable on my amd64 Sid. I've read nice stuff about dillo (which
rendering engine?), but haven't tried it. All these browsers might not
support all the latest bells 'n' whistles. I have them around to test
my wannabe sites (as well as some versions of IE in a VM).

I enjoyed Opera (has it's own r.e.) while still on Windows and a bit
in Linux. Not opensource, a bit heavy at the time, but stable and i
haven't seen an "open all links of this tab in another linked tab" in
any other browser (always hve to use the middle button). They first
came up with "speed dial" IIRC. Etc.

I use Iceweasel with ADP and NoScript and that's it. Sometimes i get
in trouble with flash-sites and sometimes my cpu will spike 'cos of
some tab, but i think it's the most all-round browser i have. I'll use
30 tabs max, and don't like to keep flash tabs open, so i can't say i
use it extensively.

I've briefly used chromium, but it lacks some nice plugins.

It's also fun to try acid3.acidtests.org on each browser, if you're picky.

My 2¢

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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Frank]

> > >I often wonder about this; IIRC, FF used to advertise itself as
> > >"lightweight".  Does it still do that?  Was it ever accurate?
> > 
> > It was lighter that the Mozilla suite that it "replaced".  It was similar 
> > technology, but just a browser.  It lacked the HTML editing abilities, the 
> > mail and news reader components, and a few other things.  This 
> > significantly 
> > reduced load times and initial memory usage.

> > 
> > I still prefer konqueror, or chromium-browser if konqueror doesn't work on 
> > a 
> > certain site.  Still, I find myself using FF + ABP on a few flash-ad-ridden 
> > sites.
> 
> I have resisted installing konq, since I don't use KDE, and I have a
> perhaps irrational resistance to installing that first KDE package that
> will drag in all sorts of KDE libs and stuff.  I've occasionally tried
> chromium, but it never worked very well, and I couldn't be bothered to
> investigate and figure out why.


  Strange. Google-Chrome is the thing that keeps me on the web now -
the ONLY thing I miss in it is FF's handling of RSS feeds. But I'm
not going back to that bloat to get them back.


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

In <20101120185835.2915d9d3.cele...@gmail.com>, Celejar wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:26:43 -0600
>"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."  wrote:
>> Much of the memory usage can be blamed on aggressive per-tab caching of
>> webpages and/or extensions or plugins.  Still, I find FF to cause me more
>> problems than my other browser options, but having it around is essential
>> for some sites, it seems.
>> 
>> I still prefer konqueror, or chromium-browser if konqueror doesn't work on
>> a certain site.  Still, I find myself using FF + ABP on a few
>> flash-ad-ridden sites.
>
>I have resisted installing konq, since I don't use KDE, and I have a
>perhaps irrational resistance to installing that first KDE package that
>will drag in all sorts of KDE libs and stuff.

Maybe it is irrational, but I don't really see a good reason to use Konq if 
you don't use KDE.  I've used KDE since 3.3, and enjoy the level of 
integration.  If you don't benefit from the integration, it's just an aging 
browser, though there is on-going work to make it more modern without losing 
the integration.

There are other WebKit-based browsers besides Chromium out there and there are 
other Gecko-based browsers besides FireFox / IceWeasel out there.  By 
experimenting you may find one that is less bad for you than FireFox.

Finally, if you need a browser that doesn't cost anything, even if it is not 
Free Software, Opera is supposed to be fairly good, and I think they even have 
.debs available.  I used it as my primary browser before switching to Linux 
(and mostly Free Software) and I actually found it much more usable than both 
IE6 and whatever Mozilla product was available at the time.
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Celejar]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:26:43 -0600
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."  wrote:

> In <20101119161324.2ed2f1a8.cele...@gmail.com>, Celejar wrote:
> >On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:03:44 + (UTC)
> >Camaleón  wrote:
> >> On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 21:37:32 -0800, Dan Serban wrote:
> >> > After years of running the mozilla suite (remember when you couldn't
> >> > refresh a POST document in mozilla 0.6?) and begrudgingly moving to
> >> > Firefox, then falling in love with iceweasel.  Today, sad as it is, is
> >> > when I feel that I must announce that I decided to:
> >> > 
> >> > # aptitude purge iceweasel icedove
> >> > 
> >> > I will spare you the minute details for my decision, but I assume most
> >> > of you experience the same frustrations I do.  The increasing bloat, the
> >> > never enough memory (16gb real, 32gb swap) being happily claimed by a
> >> > single tab and xul-runner eating it all.
> >> 
> >> Mozilla products are memory/CPU hogs, yes. I hope newer versions can
> >> correct that.
> >
> >I often wonder about this; IIRC, FF used to advertise itself as
> >"lightweight".  Does it still do that?  Was it ever accurate?
> 
> It was lighter that the Mozilla suite that it "replaced".  It was similar 
> technology, but just a browser.  It lacked the HTML editing abilities, the 
> mail and news reader components, and a few other things.  This significantly 
> reduced load times and initial memory usage.

Okay, thanks.
 
> Much of the memory usage can be blamed on aggressive per-tab caching of 
> webpages and/or extensions or plugins.  Still, I find FF to cause me more 
> problems than my other browser options, but having it around is essential for 
> some sites, it seems.
> 
> I still prefer konqueror, or chromium-browser if konqueror doesn't work on a 
> certain site.  Still, I find myself using FF + ABP on a few flash-ad-ridden 
> sites.

I have resisted installing konq, since I don't use KDE, and I have a
perhaps irrational resistance to installing that first KDE package that
will drag in all sorts of KDE libs and stuff.  I've occasionally tried
chromium, but it never worked very well, and I couldn't be bothered to
investigate and figure out why.

Celejar
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Sthu Deus]

Dan Serban wrote:

> > I will spare you the minute details for my decision, but I assume
> > most of you experience the same frustrations I do.  The increasing
> > bloat, the never enough memory (16gb real, 32gb swap) being happily
> > claimed by a single tab and xul-runner eating it all.

I use FF only, and have much less memory parameters - yet never had
any problem like that.

Of course it is up to You what You do w/ the software You've
once installed, but let it be at least known to You that the reasons
You've brought here just are no essential or in other words, not
Mozilla-specific.

Have a good day.


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Kelly Clowers]

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 00:45, Andrei Popescu  wrote:
> unfortunately s/wicd/network-manager/ :(

yuck

Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Andrei Popescu]

On Vi, 19 nov 10, 22:21:59, Robert Blair Mason Jr. wrote:
> > > 
> > I thought I was alone in this, I've also ditched Iceweasel. I've
> > found claws-mail to be just fine, and have recently dropped Gnome and
> > replaced it with xfce. Gnome has grown fat and sluggish
> 
> sed s/xfce/lxde/

+1, and also s/gdm/slim/, but unfortunately s/wicd/network-manager/ :(

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Kelly Clowers]

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:04, Andrei Popescu  wrote:
> On Vi, 19 nov 10, 05:49:13, Kelly Clowers wrote:
>>
>> Haven't switched to IMAP yet, still on Gmail at this point.
>
> And what's the problem? I use Gmail via IMAP just fine.

I use Gmail for the UI and the Search. Otherwise I would just run
Postfix+Dovecot on my server. I still plan to actually, but I keep
hoping if I put it off long enough, someone will make a good
search system and a UI I can enjoy.

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:39, Jonathan Dlouhy  wrote:
> On 11/19/2010 04:23 PM, Petrus Validus wrote:
>>
>> How does Seamonkey fare at performance/resource handling?  Is it any
>> better than FF?  I haven't used it in quite some time.
>
> Don't all the addons most folks use slow FF down even more?

Installing the top ten addons from AMO will about double the number
of stat()s on startup, I believe. And some are definitely memory/cpu
hogs. A few are outright buggy and will cause crashes and other
serious badness.

I can't live with a browser without them, though. And Mozilla at least
needs fewer than FF to be a reasonable browser. As far as resources
in general, for years Moz was far better at dealing with large numbers
of tabs, but Moz has only gotten a little better, while FF has improved
a lot, so they are pretty close. Actual memory used is pretty similar
(the allocator, etc. is in Gecko, so that makes sense).


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Robert Blair Mason Jr.]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 13:20:21 -0500
john  wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:26:52 +
> Michal  wrote:
> 
> > On 19/11/10 05:37, Dan Serban wrote:
> > > After years of running the mozilla suite (remember when you couldn't
> > > refresh a POST document in mozilla 0.6?) and begrudgingly moving to
> --snipp> >
> > > Just thought I'd make some noise and share, I feel so free.  \o/
> > >
> > >
> > Funnily, on the Windows 7 boxes I have I  chucked Firefox for IE9 64bit 
> > Betas. The speed increase I get is MASSIVE. Missing some addon's which 
> > annoys me, but it's better then the constant problems I see with Firefox
> > 
> I thought I was alone in this, I've also ditched Iceweasel. I've
> found claws-mail to be just fine, and have recently dropped Gnome and
> replaced it with xfce. Gnome has grown fat and sluggish

sed s/xfce/lxde/

-- 
rbmj


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Charlie]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 13:20:21 -0500 john  shared
this with us all:

>I thought I was alone in this, I've also ditched Iceweasel. I've
>found claws-mail to be just fine,

I also thought this, have dumped Iceweasel, finally got fed up, and
have used claws-mail for quite a long time and like it very much.
Changed when the problems [blessing as it turned out] with KDE and Kmail
started.

Charlie
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Registered Linux User:- 329524
***

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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[john]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:26:52 +
Michal  wrote:

> On 19/11/10 05:37, Dan Serban wrote:
> > After years of running the mozilla suite (remember when you couldn't
> > refresh a POST document in mozilla 0.6?) and begrudgingly moving to
--snipp> >
> > Just thought I'd make some noise and share, I feel so free.  \o/
> >
> >
> Funnily, on the Windows 7 boxes I have I  chucked Firefox for IE9 64bit 
> Betas. The speed increase I get is MASSIVE. Missing some addon's which 
> annoys me, but it's better then the constant problems I see with Firefox
> 
I thought I was alone in this, I've also ditched Iceweasel. I've
found claws-mail to be just fine, and have recently dropped Gnome and
replaced it with xfce. Gnome has grown fat and sluggish - far too
slow for my eight-year-old desktop (P4)

John.


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Dan Serban]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 10:46:11 +0200
Andrei Popescu  wrote:

> On Jo, 18 nov 10, 21:37:32, Dan Serban wrote:
> > 
> > I now have chromium and claws at my beck and call.  Man.. are they
> > ever fast.
> 
> While I like claws mail, last time I looked at it it was lacking IMAP 
> IDLE support.

It does seem like IDLE support is lacking, though creates zero cause
for concern on my end, I don't mind waiting a minute or 5 for mail to
show up.  In fact the non-feature may be considered a feature as it
synthetically creates free time for me =D.

> I would be interested to switch away from iceweasel if there was 
> something like vimperator. The chromium plugin is lacking some basic 
> features I use every day.

Right, vimperator _is_ nice, but firefox really just hurt me to the
point where I just couldn't get tasks done anymore.  As another poster
said, hundreds of tabs open, because each webpage has a tidbit of
useful information etc is how I use it.

I do appreciate that everyone works differently, it's been so horrid
for so long that it came time to decide to conform to the way another
program works just to get some relief.

> Regards,
> Andrei


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:13:24 -0500, Celejar wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:03:44 + (UTC) Camaleón wrote:
> 
>> Mozilla products are memory/CPU hogs, yes. I hope newer versions can
>> correct that.
> 
> I often wonder about this; IIRC, FF used to advertise itself as
> "lightweight".  Does it still do that?  Was it ever accurate?

I'm not in the best position to speak about Mozilla products because I 
wouldn't be objective (still using old versions of both, Iceweasel 
-3.0.x- and Icedove -2.x-) but true is that Mozilla products (Netscape 
Navigator suite) has never been known by its good management of memory :-)

Is Firefox "lightweight"? Well, it has a small footprint in the system 
(~10 MiB, which is not bad for what provides), but overall I'd say "no". 
I've worked with konqueror (and now also Epiphany) and konqueror 
performed a better job in many aspects, not only with memory management.

top - 00:18:38 up 16:27,  2 users,  load average: 0.12, 0.03, 0.01
Tasks: 131 total,   3 running, 128 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie
Cpu(s):  1.1%us,  0.2%sy,  0.0%ni, 98.6%id,  0.0%wa,  0.0%hi,  0.0%si,  0.0%st
Mem:   8201264k total,  1536164k used,  6665100k free,54368k buffers
Swap:  2104472k total,0k used,  2104472k free,   832752k cached

3369 sm01  20   0  548m 113m  25m S0  1.4   3:19.36 liferea-bin 
 
3466 sm01  20   0  624m 107m  28m S0  1.3   2:52.77 icedove-bin 
 
9712 sm01  20   0  558m 101m  24m S0  1.3   0:19.99 firefox-bin  
...

"200" MiB of ram for just 2 applications (mozilla based) is excessive. And 
I only have 2 tabs opened :-/

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Jonathan Dlouhy]

On 11/19/2010 04:23 PM, Petrus Validus wrote:



Mozilla products are memory/CPU hogs, yes. I hope newer versions can
correct that.


I often wonder about this; IIRC, FF used to advertise itself as
"lightweight".  Does it still do that?  Was it ever accurate?


Maybe at version 1.0...but it just seems to become more and more bloated
with each release.  Quite disappointing, really.

How does Seamonkey fare at performance/resource handling?  Is it any
better than FF?  I haven't used it in quite some time.


Don't all the addons most folks use slow FF down even more?

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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

In <20101119161324.2ed2f1a8.cele...@gmail.com>, Celejar wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:03:44 + (UTC)
>Camaleón  wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 21:37:32 -0800, Dan Serban wrote:
>> > After years of running the mozilla suite (remember when you couldn't
>> > refresh a POST document in mozilla 0.6?) and begrudgingly moving to
>> > Firefox, then falling in love with iceweasel.  Today, sad as it is, is
>> > when I feel that I must announce that I decided to:
>> > 
>> > # aptitude purge iceweasel icedove
>> > 
>> > I will spare you the minute details for my decision, but I assume most
>> > of you experience the same frustrations I do.  The increasing bloat, the
>> > never enough memory (16gb real, 32gb swap) being happily claimed by a
>> > single tab and xul-runner eating it all.
>> 
>> Mozilla products are memory/CPU hogs, yes. I hope newer versions can
>> correct that.
>
>I often wonder about this; IIRC, FF used to advertise itself as
>"lightweight".  Does it still do that?  Was it ever accurate?

It was lighter that the Mozilla suite that it "replaced".  It was similar 
technology, but just a browser.  It lacked the HTML editing abilities, the 
mail and news reader components, and a few other things.  This significantly 
reduced load times and initial memory usage.

Much of the memory usage can be blamed on aggressive per-tab caching of 
webpages and/or extensions or plugins.  Still, I find FF to cause me more 
problems than my other browser options, but having it around is essential for 
some sites, it seems.

I still prefer konqueror, or chromium-browser if konqueror doesn't work on a 
certain site.  Still, I find myself using FF + ABP on a few flash-ad-ridden 
sites.
-- 
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b...@iguanasuicide.net   ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Petrus Validus]

> > Mozilla products are memory/CPU hogs, yes. I hope newer versions can 
> > correct that.
> 
> I often wonder about this; IIRC, FF used to advertise itself as
> "lightweight".  Does it still do that?  Was it ever accurate?

Maybe at version 1.0...but it just seems to become more and more bloated
with each release.  Quite disappointing, really.

How does Seamonkey fare at performance/resource handling?  Is it any
better than FF?  I haven't used it in quite some time.
-- 
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petrus.vali...@gmail.com
If there isn't a way, I'll make one.


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Celejar]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:03:44 + (UTC)
Camaleón  wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 21:37:32 -0800, Dan Serban wrote:
> 
> > After years of running the mozilla suite (remember when you couldn't
> > refresh a POST document in mozilla 0.6?) and begrudgingly moving to
> > Firefox, then falling in love with iceweasel.  Today, sad as it is, is
> > when I feel that I must announce that I decided to:
> > 
> > # aptitude purge iceweasel icedove
> > 
> > I will spare you the minute details for my decision, but I assume most
> > of you experience the same frustrations I do.  The increasing bloat, the
> > never enough memory (16gb real, 32gb swap) being happily claimed by a
> > single tab and xul-runner eating it all.
> 
> Mozilla products are memory/CPU hogs, yes. I hope newer versions can 
> correct that.

I often wonder about this; IIRC, FF used to advertise itself as
"lightweight".  Does it still do that?  Was it ever accurate?

Celejar
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Andrei Popescu]

On Vi, 19 nov 10, 05:49:13, Kelly Clowers wrote:
> 
> Haven't switched to IMAP yet, still on Gmail at this point.

And what's the problem? I use Gmail via IMAP just fine.

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Carl Fink]

On Fri, November 19, 2010 11:26 am, Michal wrote:

> Funnily, on the Windows 7 boxes I have I  chucked Firefox for IE9 64bit
> Betas. The speed increase I get is MASSIVE. Missing some addon's which
> annoys me, but it's better then the constant problems I see with Firefox

You should be comparing to the FF 4 betas.  They've also been working on
speed increases.
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Michal]

On 19/11/10 05:37, Dan Serban wrote:

After years of running the mozilla suite (remember when you couldn't
refresh a POST document in mozilla 0.6?) and begrudgingly moving to
Firefox, then falling in love with iceweasel.  Today, sad as it is,
is when I feel that I must announce that I decided to:

# aptitude purge iceweasel icedove

I will spare you the minute details for my decision, but I
assume most of you experience the same frustrations I do.  The
increasing bloat, the never enough memory (16gb real, 32gb swap) being
happily claimed by a single tab and xul-runner eating it all.

Icedove likes to make my computer behave like a 386 (downloading
and indexing millions of IMAP messages..  heck, it's _why_ I use IMAP
:/).

I now have chromium and claws at my beck and call.  Man.. are they
ever fast.

Just thought I'd make some noise and share, I feel so free.  \o/


Funnily, on the Windows 7 boxes I have I  chucked Firefox for IE9 64bit 
Betas. The speed increase I get is MASSIVE. Missing some addon's which 
annoys me, but it's better then the constant problems I see with Firefox



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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:31:29 -0500, Carl Fink wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 08:03:44AM +, Camale?n wrote:
> 
>> I have to stick with Icedove because is one of the two MUAs I know that
>> can handle html e-mails in Linux. The second is Evolution, but I think
>> is even slower than Icedove.
> 
> Mutt works great.

I know. I use it. 

But does not suit for my daily business-work needs.

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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Kelly Clowers]

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 03:26, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
 wrote:
> On 19 Nov 2010, Dan Serban wrote:


>>
>> Just thought I'd make some noise and share, I feel so free.  \o/
>
> Thanks for the heads up but you can, you know, just delete packages without
> having to inform anyone about it.

Where's the fun in that?

Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Kelly Clowers]

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 21:37, Dan Serban  wrote:
> After years of running the mozilla suite (remember when you couldn't
> refresh a POST document in mozilla 0.6?) and begrudgingly moving to
> Firefox, then falling in love with iceweasel.  Today, sad as it is,
> is when I feel that I must announce that I decided to:
>
> # aptitude purge iceweasel icedove

They are too old anyway. I may dislike the Foundation, but the only
way to go is straight from the source, preferably the Nightlies.

> I will spare you the minute details for my decision, but I
> assume most of you experience the same frustrations I do.  The
> increasing bloat, the never enough memory (16gb real, 32gb swap) being
> happily claimed by a single tab and xul-runner eating it all.

I use Mozilla and FF with 4GB memory, and  everything is fine (although
I don't run a DE). I could use a little more memory, but only because I
developed the bad habit of running 2 browsers often with a total of over
200 tabs.


> Icedove likes to make my computer behave like a 386 (downloading
> and indexing millions of IMAP messages..  heck, it's _why_ I use IMAP
> :/).

Haven't switched to IMAP yet, still on Gmail at this point.

> I now have chromium and claws at my beck and call.  Man.. are they
> ever fast.

Chrome/Chromium invariably fill me with rage. How can a UI be that
bad?

> Just thought I'd make some noise and share, I feel so free.  \o/

'K


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Carl Fink]

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 08:03:44AM +, Camale?n wrote:

> I have to stick with Icedove because is one of the two MUAs I know that 
> can handle html e-mails in Linux. The second is Evolution, but I think is 
> even slower than Icedove.

Mutt works great.
-- 
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Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com.  Reviews!  Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!


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Re: Claws mail and HTML formatting (was: Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Angus Hedger]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 11:25:11 + (UTC)
Camaleón  wrote:
> Yep, but that only covers the third part of my "perverse"
> needings }:-)

We all have our guilty pleasures! ;)

> Besides, I still need forwarding "inline".
> 
> Greetings,
> 



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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Paul Cartwright]

On 11/19/2010 03:03 AM, Camaleón wrote:
> Icedove 3.x has an option to tell do not index e-mails. Not sure how it 
> goes because I'm still with 2.x branch.
edit-preferences-Advanced- uncheck Enable Global Search and indexer

-- 
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On Sex, 19 Nov 2010, Dan Serban wrote:

After years of running the mozilla suite (remember when you couldn't
refresh a POST document in mozilla 0.6?) and begrudgingly moving to
Firefox, then falling in love with iceweasel.  Today, sad as it is,
is when I feel that I must announce that I decided to:

# aptitude purge iceweasel icedove

I will spare you the minute details for my decision, but I
assume most of you experience the same frustrations I do.  The
increasing bloat, the never enough memory (16gb real, 32gb swap) being
happily claimed by a single tab and xul-runner eating it all.

Icedove likes to make my computer behave like a 386 (downloading
and indexing millions of IMAP messages..  heck, it's _why_ I use IMAP
:/).

I now have chromium and claws at my beck and call.  Man.. are they
ever fast.

Just thought I'd make some noise and share, I feel so free.  \o/


Thanks for the heads up but you can, you know, just delete packages  
without having to inform anyone about it.




--
Your wig steers the gig.
-- Lord Buckley

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br


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Re: Claws mail and HTML formatting (was: Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 13:10:53 +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote:

> On Vi, 19 nov 10, 11:05:53, Camaleón wrote:
>> 
>> Damn! Yes, I need sending/resending/forwarding those fancy e-mails that
>> annoy some people >:-)
> 
> Forwarding as attachment might work...

Yep, but that only covers the third part of my "perverse" needings }:-)

Besides, I still need forwarding "inline".

Greetings,

-- 
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Re: Claws mail and HTML formatting (was: Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Angus Hedger]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 13:10:53 +0200
Andrei Popescu  wrote:

> On Vi, 19 nov 10, 11:05:53, Camaleón wrote:
> > 
> > Damn! Yes, I need sending/resending/forwarding those fancy e-mails
> > that annoy some people >:-)
> 
> Forwarding as attachment might work...

As far as I know, forwarding works fine, but writing them doesn’t ;)

> Regards,
> Andrei



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Re: Claws mail and HTML formatting (was: Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Andrei Popescu]

On Vi, 19 nov 10, 11:05:53, Camaleón wrote:
> 
> Damn! Yes, I need sending/resending/forwarding those fancy e-mails that 
> annoy some people >:-)

Forwarding as attachment might work...

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: Claws mail and HTML formatting (was: Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 10:45:29 +, Angus Hedger wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 10:27:01 + (UTC) Camaleón wrote:
> 
>> > And with the right plugins, from the repo, it does HTML email, and
>> > RSS like a champion. (and pgp of cause)
>> 
>> Can you expand that information?
> 
> It views well, but cant write, as it says below.
> 
> I don’t personaly have any need to send HTML email, and have a hard time
> working out why you would need to, unless you want to write fancy
> newsletters that mildly annoy everyone who hates HTML email ;)

Damn! Yes, I need sending/resending/forwarding those fancy e-mails that 
annoy some people >:-)
 
> Sorry if I wasn’t clear!

Thanks anyway for confirming.

Greetings,

-- 
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Re: Claws mail and HTML formatting (was: Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Angus Hedger]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 10:27:01 + (UTC)
Camaleón  wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 10:18:43 +, Angus Hedger wrote:
> 
> > Claw mail is pretty dam fast, I havent bothered to learn the search
> > function very well yet, but meh.
> > 
> > And with the right plugins, from the repo, it does HTML email, and
> > RSS like a champion. (and pgp of cause)
> 
> Can you expand that information?

It views well, but cant write, as it says below.

I don’t personaly have any need to send HTML email, and have a hard
time working out why you would need to, unless you want to write fancy
newsletters that mildly annoy everyone who hates HTML email ;)

Sorry if I wasn’t clear!

> AFAIK:
> 
> ***
> http://www.claws-mail.org/faq/index.php/General_Information#Does_Claws_Mail_allow_me_to_write_HTML_styled_messages.3F
> 
> Does Claws Mail allow me to write HTML styled messages?
> 
> No. A discussion has gone around over this topic, and the outcome was 
> that HTML mail is not wanted. If you really need to send HTML, you
> can of course attach a webpage to an e-mail. 
> ***
> 
> Greetings,
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Claws mail and HTML formatting (was: Re: Frustration made me do it.)

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 10:18:43 +, Angus Hedger wrote:

> Claw mail is pretty dam fast, I havent bothered to learn the search
> function very well yet, but meh.
> 
> And with the right plugins, from the repo, it does HTML email, and RSS
> like a champion. (and pgp of cause)

Can you expand that information?

AFAIK:

***
http://www.claws-mail.org/faq/index.php/General_Information#Does_Claws_Mail_allow_me_to_write_HTML_styled_messages.3F

Does Claws Mail allow me to write HTML styled messages?

No. A discussion has gone around over this topic, and the outcome was 
that HTML mail is not wanted. If you really need to send HTML, you can of 
course attach a webpage to an e-mail. 
***

Greetings,

-- 
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Angus Hedger]

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 21:37:32 -0800
Dan Serban  wrote:

> After years of running the mozilla suite (remember when you couldn't
> refresh a POST document in mozilla 0.6?) and begrudgingly moving to
> Firefox, then falling in love with iceweasel.  Today, sad as it is,
> is when I feel that I must announce that I decided to:
> 
> # aptitude purge iceweasel icedove
> 
> I will spare you the minute details for my decision, but I
> assume most of you experience the same frustrations I do.  The
> increasing bloat, the never enough memory (16gb real, 32gb swap) being
> happily claimed by a single tab and xul-runner eating it all.
> 
> Icedove likes to make my computer behave like a 386 (downloading
> and indexing millions of IMAP messages..  heck, it's _why_ I use IMAP
> :/).

I know that feeling, Icedove was so to index my inbox, and even slower
when it was all there! (5 years of gmail junk, 2089MB, 18542msgs,
excluding stuff not in the "inbox").

> I now have chromium and claws at my beck and call.  Man.. are they
> ever fast.

Claw mail is pretty dam fast, I havent bothered to learn the search
function very well yet, but meh.

And with the right plugins, from the repo, it does HTML email, and RSS
like a champion. (and pgp of cause)

And chrome/chromeium is so much faster than FF3.x that it hurts,
hopefully 4.x fixes it a bit.

> Just thought I'd make some noise and share, I feel so free.  \o/

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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Klistvud]

Dne, 19. 11. 2010 06:37:32 je Dan Serban napisal(a):


Icedove likes to make my computer behave like a 386 (downloading
and indexing millions of IMAP messages..


Erm ... isn't that what computing is all about? I mean, if you look  
closer, some programmers think that their mission won't be accomplished  
until they make our multigiga-multicore uebermachines behave *exactly*  
like the original 8086. So there's still some room to go, but we're  
closing in fast.


It's actually more general than that, if you think about it. Give a man  
a 6-lane highway, and you can bet your arse he'll make the traffic slow  
down to a crawl. Double a man's Internet bandwidth, and you can bet  
your other arse that he'll treble the size of his downloads, and  
quintuple the complexity of www pages -- effectively managing to make  
the Internet slower than before. Hmm, I'm running out of things to bet  
here ...


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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Andrei Popescu]

On Jo, 18 nov 10, 21:37:32, Dan Serban wrote:
> 
> I now have chromium and claws at my beck and call.  Man.. are they
> ever fast.

While I like claws mail, last time I looked at it it was lacking IMAP 
IDLE support.

I would be interested to switch away from iceweasel if there was 
something like vimperator. The chromium plugin is lacking some basic 
features I use every day.

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: Frustration made me do it.

[Camaleón]

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 21:37:32 -0800, Dan Serban wrote:

> After years of running the mozilla suite (remember when you couldn't
> refresh a POST document in mozilla 0.6?) and begrudgingly moving to
> Firefox, then falling in love with iceweasel.  Today, sad as it is, is
> when I feel that I must announce that I decided to:
> 
> # aptitude purge iceweasel icedove
> 
> I will spare you the minute details for my decision, but I assume most
> of you experience the same frustrations I do.  The increasing bloat, the
> never enough memory (16gb real, 32gb swap) being happily claimed by a
> single tab and xul-runner eating it all.

Mozilla products are memory/CPU hogs, yes. I hope newer versions can 
correct that.
 
> Icedove likes to make my computer behave like a 386 (downloading and
> indexing millions of IMAP messages..  heck, it's _why_ I use IMAP :/).

Icedove 3.x has an option to tell do not index e-mails. Not sure how it 
goes because I'm still with 2.x branch.

> I now have chromium and claws at my beck and call.  Man.. are they ever
> fast.
> 
> Just thought I'd make some noise and share, I feel so free.  \o/

Lucky you that can make that change :-)

I have to stick with Icedove because is one of the two MUAs I know that 
can handle html e-mails in Linux. The second is Evolution, but I think is 
even slower than Icedove.

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Frustration made me do it.

[Dan Serban]

After years of running the mozilla suite (remember when you couldn't
refresh a POST document in mozilla 0.6?) and begrudgingly moving to
Firefox, then falling in love with iceweasel.  Today, sad as it is,
is when I feel that I must announce that I decided to:

# aptitude purge iceweasel icedove

I will spare you the minute details for my decision, but I
assume most of you experience the same frustrations I do.  The
increasing bloat, the never enough memory (16gb real, 32gb swap) being
happily claimed by a single tab and xul-runner eating it all.

Icedove likes to make my computer behave like a 386 (downloading
and indexing millions of IMAP messages..  heck, it's _why_ I use IMAP
:/).

I now have chromium and claws at my beck and call.  Man.. are they
ever fast.

Just thought I'd make some noise and share, I feel so free.  \o/


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