Solution [Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs]

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/29/2024 12:17 PM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 06:37:23AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

[...]


When searching for information on regular expressions I came across one that
did it by searching for
{"1 thru 9" OR "10 thru 99" OR "100 thru 999"} .
I lost the reference ;<


That would be something like ([0-9]|[1-9][0-9]|[1-9][0-9][0-9])
since [x-y] expresses a range of characters, the | does OR and
the () do grouping [1].

If you allow yourself to be a bit sloppy [2], and allow numbers
with leading zeros, many regexps flavors have the "limited count
operator" {min,max}, with which you might say [0-9]{1,3} (you
won't need the grouping here, since the repeat operator binds
strongly enough to not mess up the rest of your regexp.

CAVEAT IMPLEMENTOR: Depending on the flavor of your regexps, the
() and sometimes the | need a backslash in front to give them
their magic meaning. In Emacs they do, in Perl (and PCRE, which
is most probably the engine behind Pluma) they don't. In grep
(and sed) you can switch behavior with an option (-E was it,
IIRC).

Cheers

[1] This grouping is (again, depening on your regexp flavour)
a "capturing grouping", meaning that you can refer later
to what was matched by the sub-expression in the parens.
There are also (flavor blah blah) non-capturing groupings.

[2] You always are somewhat sloppy with regexps. Actually you
are being sloppy already, since every classical textbook
will tell you that they totally suck at understanding
"nested stuff", which HTML is, alas. But under the right
conditions they can butcher it alright :-)



Looks like KDE's Kate is viable solution for editing the particular HTML 
files of interest. It seems to be an appropriate mix of Pluma's ease of 
use and Emacs' power. And for some reason I had already installed it.

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[mick.crane]

On 2024-06-30 14:21, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Sun, Jun 30, 2024 at 12:32:15 +0100, mick.crane wrote:

got it thanks.









I don't know what you're trying to do, but ERE [0-7]{1,2} matches one-
or two-digit *octal* numbers (e.g. 5, 07, 72, 77) but not numbers that
contains the digits 8 or 9.

Do you have a book whose verses are enumerated in octal?


Looked at the original question, having first misunderstood it I said 
could be done with search and replace in an editor then realised I 
wasn't sure how to do what was asked.
So now I know you can use regular expressions in Geany and a bit more 
about the format.

Previous post could have been clearer but I was trying to be brief.

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Jun 30, 2024 at 09:21:57AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> Do you have a book whose verses are enumerated in octal?

No one clarified that this was the *Christian* Bible. 

Thanks,
Andy

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Jun 30, 2024 at 12:32:15 +0100, mick.crane wrote:
> got it thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

I don't know what you're trying to do, but ERE [0-7]{1,2} matches one-
or two-digit *octal* numbers (e.g. 5, 07, 72, 77) but not numbers that
contains the digits 8 or 9.

Do you have a book whose verses are enumerated in octal?

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[mick.crane]

On 2024-06-29 20:29, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 20:18:02 +0100, mick.crane wrote:

Oh, I see what the question was.
There is "use regular expressions", "use multi line matching" in Geany
I'm not very good at regular expressions.
I'd probably do it 3 times
"search for" 
"search for" 
"search for" 


There's more than one regular expression syntax, so the first step is
to figure out which *kind* of regular expression you're writing.

In a Basic Regular Expression (BRE), you can write "one to three
digits" as:

[[:digit:]]\{1,3\}

In an Extended Regular Expression (ERE), you'd remove the backslashes:

[[:digit:]]{1,3}

Some people would use [0-9] instead of [[:digit:]].  [0-9] should work
in any locale I'm aware of, but is theoretically less portable than
[[:digit:]].  If you're actually doing this by typing a regex into an
editor, then [0-9] might be preferred because it's easier to type.  If
you're writing a program, you should probably go with [[:digit:]].


got it thanks.

Re: Curt having his fits [was: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs]

[Will Mengarini]

* Richard  [24-06/30=Su 00:57 +0200]:
> That's how you warrant your ban, idiot.

Don't get yourself banned, Richard.

Anybody else remember Erik Naggum?

Re: Curt having his fits [was: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs]

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Jun 30, 2024 at 00:57:07 +0200, Richard wrote:
> That's how you warrant your ban, idiot.

Let it go.  Don't keep pouring more fuel on the fire.

Add Curt to your killfile (or whatever your MUA calls your ban list).
He's already been banned by the list admins anyway, so your local ban
is just for when the global ban is lifted.

Re: Curt having his fits [was: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs]

[Richard]

That's how you warrant your ban, idiot.

On 29.06.24 20:40, Curt wrote:

On 2024-06-29,  wrote:



Defamatory. What are you, a fucking lawyer? Sue me then, you little snit.

Bad day today?

As usual, you cut all that was pertinent to your meretricious commentary
and left only what suited your brain-damaged hypocrisy.

BTW, eliding a succinct paragraph to leave only a misleading sentence is
just the kind of inept lack of honesty that is your pathetic trademark. As if
you knew how to post, which you manifestly do not, because you cut the gist
of my remark for dishonest reasons.

Richard Owlett is a troll from way, way back.  Take it on board or go fuck
yourself.

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[mick.crane]

On 2024-06-29 20:29, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 20:18:02 +0100, mick.crane wrote:

Oh, I see what the question was.
There is "use regular expressions", "use multi line matching" in Geany
I'm not very good at regular expressions.
I'd probably do it 3 times
"search for" 
"search for" 
"search for" 


There's more than one regular expression syntax, so the first step is
to figure out which *kind* of regular expression you're writing.

In a Basic Regular Expression (BRE), you can write "one to three
digits" as:

[[:digit:]]\{1,3\}

In an Extended Regular Expression (ERE), you'd remove the backslashes:

[[:digit:]]{1,3}

Some people would use [0-9] instead of [[:digit:]].  [0-9] should work
in any locale I'm aware of, but is theoretically less portable than
[[:digit:]].  If you're actually doing this by typing a regex into an
editor, then [0-9] might be preferred because it's easier to type.  If
you're writing a program, you should probably go with [[:digit:]].


Ta,
I'd had a quick look.
the regular expression thing looks to do one character at a time.


I couldn't see how to do a wild card and if it didn't exist.

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 20:18:02 +0100, mick.crane wrote:
> Oh, I see what the question was.
> There is "use regular expressions", "use multi line matching" in Geany
> I'm not very good at regular expressions.
> I'd probably do it 3 times
> "search for" 
> "search for" 
> "search for" 

There's more than one regular expression syntax, so the first step is
to figure out which *kind* of regular expression you're writing.

In a Basic Regular Expression (BRE), you can write "one to three
digits" as:

[[:digit:]]\{1,3\}

In an Extended Regular Expression (ERE), you'd remove the backslashes:

[[:digit:]]{1,3}

Some people would use [0-9] instead of [[:digit:]].  [0-9] should work
in any locale I'm aware of, but is theoretically less portable than
[[:digit:]].  If you're actually doing this by typing a regex into an
editor, then [0-9] might be preferred because it's easier to type.  If
you're writing a program, you should probably go with [[:digit:]].

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[mick.crane]

On 2024-06-29 16:09, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 29/06/2024 20:07, mick.crane wrote:

On 2024-06-29 12:34, Max Nikulin wrote:

To manipulate with HTML it is better to write a script in some
programming language, e.g. for python there are lxml etree and
BeautifulSoup packages. This way it is easier to maintain valid
document structure with paired opening and closing tags.

I have not tried Emacs lisp facilities for dealing with HTML.


open in Geany

[...]

click search select replace
copy paste selection into "search for"


By "Emacs *lisp* facilities for dealing with HTML" I mead something
like `libxml-parse-html-region'. Notice that I was suggesting against
search


Oh, I see what the question was.
There is "use regular expressions", "use multi line matching" in Geany
I'm not very good at regular expressions.
I'd probably do it 3 times
"search for" 
"search for" 
"search for" 

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[David Wright]

On Sat 29 Jun 2024 at 17:08:04 (+0200), Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> On 2024-06-28 20:53:50 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> > Yes, it almost certainly can be done with a single sed (or other
> > similar tool) invocation where the regular expression matches
> > precisely what you want it to match. But unless this is something you
> > will do very often, I tend to prefer readability over being clever,
> > even if the readable version is somewhat less performant.
> 
> To match a range inside a regexp, $(rgxg range 1 119) is readable. :)
> 
> rgxg is provided by the package of the same name.

Perhaps best to ignore the narrow focus on 119 in the OP.
For bible verses per chapter, the largest number is 176.
(An accidental choice of 119 might be explained by that
psalm having the most verses. Only Psalms requires three
digits as it happens; I think the runner-up has only about
half that.)

It would be tedious and error-prone to have to specify the
maximum range for each chapter. Different versions of the
bible don't even agree with each other on numbers of verses.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Curt having his fits [was: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs]

[Curt]

On 2024-06-29,   wrote:
>
>
>> Defamatory. What are you, a fucking lawyer? Sue me then, you little snit.
>
> Bad day today?

As usual, you cut all that was pertinent to your meretricious commentary
and left only what suited your brain-damaged hypocrisy.

BTW, eliding a succinct paragraph to leave only a misleading sentence is
just the kind of inept lack of honesty that is your pathetic trademark. As if
you knew how to post, which you manifestly do not, because you cut the gist
of my remark for dishonest reasons.

Richard Owlett is a troll from way, way back.  Take it on board or go fuck
yourself.

Curt having his fits [was: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs]

[tomas]

On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 05:43:15PM -, Curt wrote:

[...]

> Defamatory. What are you, a fucking lawyer? Sue me then, you little snit. 

Bad day today?

I can't help you. I'm out of this thread.
-- 
t


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Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Curt]

On 2024-06-29,   wrote:
>
>> Owlett is a notorious troll who never listens to reason.
>
> This is wrong, borderline defamatory. Richard Owlett is not a

Andy Smith:

 It's not an authentic Owlett thread unless it contains an enormous
 XY problem, a monomaniacal obsession with a solution already
 part-dreamed up by the OP, several factual errors, and a constant
 trickle of confounding small details that were never provided up
 front, now delivered with glee.

IOW, a troll. So go fuck yourself, as you should have done years ago.

Defamatory. What are you, a fucking lawyer? Sue me then, you little snit. 

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[tomas]

On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 06:37:23AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

[...]

> When searching for information on regular expressions I came across one that
> did it by searching for
>{"1 thru 9" OR "10 thru 99" OR "100 thru 999"} .
> I lost the reference ;<

That would be something like ([0-9]|[1-9][0-9]|[1-9][0-9][0-9])
since [x-y] expresses a range of characters, the | does OR and
the () do grouping [1].

If you allow yourself to be a bit sloppy [2], and allow numbers
with leading zeros, many regexps flavors have the "limited count
operator" {min,max}, with which you might say [0-9]{1,3} (you
won't need the grouping here, since the repeat operator binds
strongly enough to not mess up the rest of your regexp.

CAVEAT IMPLEMENTOR: Depending on the flavor of your regexps, the
() and sometimes the | need a backslash in front to give them
their magic meaning. In Emacs they do, in Perl (and PCRE, which
is most probably the engine behind Pluma) they don't. In grep
(and sed) you can switch behavior with an option (-E was it,
IIRC).

Cheers

[1] This grouping is (again, depening on your regexp flavour)
   a "capturing grouping", meaning that you can refer later
   to what was matched by the sub-expression in the parens.
   There are also (flavor blah blah) non-capturing groupings.

[2] You always are somewhat sloppy with regexps. Actually you
   are being sloppy already, since every classical textbook
   will tell you that they totally suck at understanding
   "nested stuff", which HTML is, alas. But under the right
   conditions they can butcher it alright :-)

-- 
tomás


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Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[tomas]

On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 04:02:56PM -, Curt wrote:
> On 2024-06-29, Michael Kjörling  wrote:
> >> 
> >> HUH ??
> >
> > ..._focus on the goal_.
> >
> 
> 
> Owlett is a notorious troll who never listens to reason.

This is wrong, borderline defamatory. Richard Owlett is not a
troll [1]. He may be uncommon in the way he approaches things,
and I do understand his ways may annoy some people.

If they annoy you, you always may choose to not respond. Others
will chime in. Much more polite and much more effective for the
whole mailing list.

Lobbing insults at people doesn't help anyone.

Cheers

[1] by the very definition of "troll", who isn't interested in the topic
   itself, but just in eliciting a response.
-- 
t


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Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Lee]

Hi,

> > So you may prefer to use regexes as
> > Murphy intended, handling both the opening and closing tags at the same
> > time, leaving the intervening text intact.
>
> In this particular case I suspect it would become overly complex.
> I've already discovered that the order of edits is important.

I guess it depends on what you're used to.  I don't think this bit is
overly complex .. your opinion might be different

$ cat /tmp/z
cat /dev/null > txtfile.html
for v in $(seq 1 12); do echo ' text
text text ' >> txtfile.html; done
sed -Ei.bak 's@([^<]*)@\1@g' txtfile.html

$ bash z

$ cat txtfile*
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 
 text text text 

$

Regards,
Lee

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Curt]

On 2024-06-29, Michael Kjörling  wrote:
>> 
>> HUH ??
>
> ..._focus on the goal_.
>


Owlett is a notorious troll who never listens to reason.

But you people adore this kind of troll, inexplicably, perhaps because
he allows you to expand endlessly on your reams of essentially useless
knowledge.

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Max Nikulin]

On 29/06/2024 20:07, mick.crane wrote:

On 2024-06-29 12:34, Max Nikulin wrote:

To manipulate with HTML it is better to write a script in some
programming language, e.g. for python there are lxml etree and
BeautifulSoup packages. This way it is easier to maintain valid
document structure with paired opening and closing tags.

I have not tried Emacs lisp facilities for dealing with HTML.


open in Geany

[...]

click search select replace
copy paste selection into "search for"


By "Emacs *lisp* facilities for dealing with HTML" I mead something like 
`libxml-parse-html-region'. Notice that I was suggesting against 
search

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2024-06-28 20:53:50 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> Yes, it almost certainly can be done with a single sed (or other
> similar tool) invocation where the regular expression matches
> precisely what you want it to match. But unless this is something you
> will do very often, I tend to prefer readability over being clever,
> even if the readable version is somewhat less performant.

To match a range inside a regexp, $(rgxg range 1 119) is readable. :)

rgxg is provided by the package of the same name.

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 01:46:27PM +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 29 Jun 2024 06:12 -0500, from rowl...@access.net (Richard Owlett):
> >> there may be other  closing tags you don't want to
> >> change because they close other  tags we haven't seen.
> > 
> > Chuckle ;} The appropriate "" to be replaced by "" is ALWAYS
> > preceded by "#160;" .
> 
> As far as I can see, neither of this was stated in the original
> question. Please don't add arbitrary requirements later to invalidate
> potential answers.

It's not an authentic Owlett thread unless it contains an enormous
XY problem, a monomaniacal obsession with a solution already
part-dreamed up by the OP, several factual errors, and a constant
trickle of confounding small details that were never provided up
front, now delivered with glee.

Otherwise it's just sparkling timewasting.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Michael Kjörling]

On 29 Jun 2024 05:51 -0500, from rowl...@access.net (Richard Owlett):
>> Ignoring the question about Emacs
> 
> Emacs *CAN NOT* be ignored.

I did not say to ignore _Emacs_. I said that I was ignoring the
_question_ about Emacs, to instead...

>> and focusing on the goal (your
   
>> question otherwise is an excellent example of a XY question), this is
>> not something regular expressions are very good at.
> 
> HUH ??

..._focus on the goal_.

(It is usually a good idea to read at least a whole sentence before
responding to it.)

The _goal_ in this case being your stated specific series of string
replacements.

If you want to use Emacs to do that, no one is stopping you from doing
so. You can directly adapt what I suggested to an Emacs workflow. But
just because a nailgun can be used to hang a painting doesn't mean
that a nailgun is the _appropriate_ tool for that particular job;
without detracting from its usability in _other_ applications.

Sometimes really all you are looking for is a small hammer.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Michael Kjörling]

On 29 Jun 2024 06:12 -0500, from rowl...@access.net (Richard Owlett):
>>> $ for v in $(seq 1 119); do sed -i 's,>> id="V'$v'">,,g' ./*.html; done
>> 
>> Having done that (or similar), don't forget to change the relevant
>>  closing tags to  closing tags. However, there may be
>> other  closing tags you don't want to change because they close
>> other  tags we haven't seen.
> 
> Chuckle ;} The appropriate "" to be replaced by "" is ALWAYS
> preceded by "#160;" .

As far as I can see, neither of this was stated in the original
question. Please don't add arbitrary requirements later to invalidate
potential answers.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[mick.crane]

On 2024-06-29 12:34, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 29/06/2024 11:48, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

   Do M-x (hold Meta, most of the time your Alt key, then "x").
   You get a command for a prompt. Enter "query-replace-regexp"


And to get help for this function

C-h f query-replace-regexp RET

To open user manual switch to the help buffer and press "i".

A side note since an answer to the asked question has been posted.

To manipulate with HTML it is better to write a script in some
programming language, e.g. for python there are lxml etree and
BeautifulSoup packages. This way it is easier to maintain valid
document structure with paired opening and closing tags.

I have not tried Emacs lisp facilities for dealing with HTML.


open in Geany


  thru [at most]

  abcdefg

  thru [at most]

abcdefg

  thru [at most]

abcdefg

click search select replace
copy paste selection into "search for"
paste  in "replace with"
click "In Document"


  abcdefg

abcdefg

abcdefg

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/29/2024 06:51 AM, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:

Richard Owlett  wrote:

On 06/28/2024 03:53 PM, Michael Kjörling wrote:

On 28 Jun 2024 14:04 -0500, from rowl...@access.net (Richard
Owlett):

I need to replace ANY occurrence of
  
thru [at most]
  
by
  

I'm reformatting a Bible stored in HTML format for a particular
set of vision impaired seniors (myself included). Each chapter is
in its own file.

How do I open a file.
Do the above replacement.
Save and close the file.


Ignoring the question about Emacs


Emacs *CAN NOT* be ignored.
It is the _available_ editor known to be capable of handling regular
expressions.


Err, pluma is available I believe.


May I quote my original post?

On 06/28/2024 02:04 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:

Pluma is my editor of choice.

I've never used it but I just
started it and used the Replace... entry on the Search menu to bring up
a dialog box. In the dialog box there is a tick box labelled "Match
regular expression". So I ticked that and then tested it by editing an
html file using an RE.

So Pluma is an "_available_ editor known to be capable of handling
regular expressions."


So you evidently have a later version than I have available for this 
particular machine.

One does get latest and greatest by simply wishing for it.



And as others have pointed out, sed is available and it's easy to
install others. So there are many possible answers to your question
other than emacs.


My definition of "available" includes knowledge of how to use it.
I've investigated it for some past projects and found easier way to 
accomplish those particular tasks. Part of my interest in Emacs stems 
from having seen what co-workers could do with its predecessor TECO 
decades ago.


Updating MY system is NONtrivial!

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 07:43:47 -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> The option "g" means that said should do this multiple times if
> it occurs in the same file (globally, like grep) instead of the
> default behavior which is to find the first match and just
> change that.

The g option in sed's s command means it will apply the substitution
multiple times per *line*.  Not per file.  It always applies multiple
times per file, unless you restrict the line range with a prefix.

hobbit:~$ printf 'foo foo\nfoo foo\n' | sed s/foo/bar/
bar foo
bar foo
hobbit:~$ printf 'foo foo\nfoo foo\n' | sed s/foo/bar/g
bar bar
bar bar

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 21:23:03 -0600, Charles Curley wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 20:53:50 +
> Michael Kjörling  wrote:
> 
> > $ for v in $(seq 1 119); do sed -i 's, > id="V'$v'">,,g' ./*.html; done
> > 
> > Be sure to have a copy in case something goes wrong; and diff(1) a few
> > files afterwards to make sure that the result is as you intended.
> 
> Having done that (or similar), don't forget to change the relevant
>  closing tags to  closing tags. However, there may be
> other  closing tags you don't want to change because they close
> other  tags we haven't seen. So you may prefer to use regexes as
> Murphy intended, handling both the opening and closing tags at the same
> time, leaving the intervening text intact.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/regex-match-open-tags-except-xhtml-self-contained-tags#answer-1732454

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Dan Ritter]

Richard Owlett wrote: 
> On 06/28/2024 03:53 PM, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> > On 28 Jun 2024 14:04 -0500, from rowl...@access.net (Richard Owlett):
> > > I need to replace ANY occurrence of
> > >  
> > >thru [at most]
> > >  
> > > by
> > >  
> > > 
> > > I'm reformatting a Bible stored in HTML format for a particular set of
> > > vision impaired seniors (myself included). Each chapter is in its own 
> > > file.
> > > 
> > > How do I open a file.
> > > Do the above replacement.
> > > Save and close the file.
> > 
> > Ignoring the question about Emacs
> 
> Emacs *CAN NOT* be ignored.
> It is the _available_ editor known to be capable of handling regular
> expressions.

If your machine doesn't have sed, it is not a working Debian
system. 

Every Debian machine comes with sed by default.  Even the
rescue image has sed. The installer environment, before Debian
is actually installed, has sed. sed is a basic tool that
everyone has access to. emacs needs to be installed, and often
is not.

I know from past experience that it's useless to offer you any
solution that deviates from the vision you have for the way the
world ought to work, but this is a sufficiently common kind of
problem that a full answer will be useful to other people.

> > and focusing on the goal (your
> > question otherwise is an excellent example of a XY question), this is
> > not something regular expressions are very good at.
> 
> HUH ??

An XY question is when someone asks "How can I do specific thing
X?" but what they want to do is task Y, which is more easily
accomplished in a different way that doesn't involve X at all.
Usually this means that they have read something that tells them
about X in a different context, and they think that is an
essential part of solving their Y problem.

If we're lucky, they tell us what Y is. Frequently, XY questions
just show up as "How do I do X?" without context.

It happens a lot on this mailing list.

Or, maybe your expression of disbelief was about regular
expressions? A regular expression (regexp) is a specific kind of
formal language for specifying a pattern of tokens -- what we
often call a "string". If the regexp describes a candidate
string, we call that a "match". A common editing task is to find
all the matches for a regexp and replace them with some other
string.

The program "grep" takes its name from a sequence of editor
commands: global regular expression print. 

Michael says that regexps aren't great at this particular task
because there's a variable component in the pattern which is
hard to describe. He comes up with a clever solution based on
the fact that the variable component is going to be an integer
sequence.


> > However, since
> > it's presumably a once-only operation, I assume that you can live with
> > it being done in a suboptimal way in terms of performance.
> > 
> > In that case, assuming for simplicity that all the files are in a
> > single directory, you could try something similar to:
> > 
> > $ for v in $(seq 1 119); do sed -i 's, > id="V'$v'">,,g' ./*.html; done
 
This sets up a loop which will execute 119 times, incrementing
the variable $v from 1 to 119. Inside the loop, it calls `sed`
to execute inplace (-i) which means it will change the files it
encounters rather than spitting out new files on standard out.

The command passed to sed is

s,,,g

s means string substitution. It takes a pattern, a replacement,
and options, separated by the next character after the s, which
in this case is a comma.



is the pattern. Because of the loop, the value $v is going to be
replaced by the shell before sed sees this, so on various runs
through the loop sed will see:



...




You'll probably need to adjust this for other books.

Anyway, whenever sed sees the pattern above, it will replace it
with:



which is what you said you wanted.

The option "g" means that said should do this multiple times if
it occurs in the same file (globally, like grep) instead of the
default behavior which is to find the first match and just
change that.

./*.html

tells sed to operate on all the files in the current directory
ending in .html -- yes, shells implement a version of regexp for
file pattern matching. And that's the end of the loop.


> I'll have to investigate sed further.
> My project is not yet to the point of automatically editing ALL chapters. I
> need to first establish how to edit all VERSES of an individual chapter.

The solution Michael presented can be run on just one file
instead of all the .html files in the current directory.


> ROFL ;} No one would define me as a "programmer". I took an introduction to
> computers course as a E.E. student in the 60's. Most of my jobs required
> background in component level analog electronics. Got one assignment because
> I was not "afraid" of 8080 ;}

The true UNIX philosophy is that at any moment, any user can
stop being "just a user" and use the tools present to do some
programming to solve their problems. 

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[debian-user]

Richard Owlett  wrote:
> On 06/28/2024 03:53 PM, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> > On 28 Jun 2024 14:04 -0500, from rowl...@access.net (Richard
> > Owlett):  
> >> I need to replace ANY occurrence of
> >>  
> >>thru [at most]
> >>  
> >> by
> >>  
> >>
> >> I'm reformatting a Bible stored in HTML format for a particular
> >> set of vision impaired seniors (myself included). Each chapter is
> >> in its own file.
> >>
> >> How do I open a file.
> >> Do the above replacement.
> >> Save and close the file.  
> > 
> > Ignoring the question about Emacs   
> 
> Emacs *CAN NOT* be ignored.
> It is the _available_ editor known to be capable of handling regular 
> expressions.

Err, pluma is available I believe. I've never used it but I just
started it and used the Replace... entry on the Search menu to bring up
a dialog box. In the dialog box there is a tick box labelled "Match
regular expression". So I ticked that and then tested it by editing an
html file using an RE.

So Pluma is an "_available_ editor known to be capable of handling
regular expressions."

And as others have pointed out, sed is available and it's easy to
install others. So there are many possible answers to your question
other than emacs.

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/28/2024 11:48 PM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 02:04:37PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

Pluma is my editor of choice.
*BUT* it can NOT handle Search and Replace operations involving regular
expressions.


I would be *very* surprised if an editor, these days and age
can't do regular expressions. Really.


Emacs can. It has much verbose documentation.
But examples seem rather scarce.


Of course, Emacs is the best editor out there, by a long shot.
But learning it is a long and panoramic road. You should at
least have a rough idea that you want to take it.


Definitely interested
I worked for DEC in the 70's. Though an tech in Power Supply 
Engineering, I was exposed to TECO and have recently seen claims that 
Emacs is TECO done right. I've been exposed to many editors since but 
TECO is memorable.





I need to replace ANY occurrence of
 
   thru [at most]
 
by
 

I'm reformatting a Bible stored in HTML format for a particular set of
vision impaired seniors (myself included). Each chapter is in its own file.

How do I open a file.


Two ways of skinning that cat:

   - in a terminal, type "emacs "
   - in an open Emacs instance (be it terminal or GUI, your
 choice), type C-x C-f (hold CTRL, then "x", while holding
 CTRL then "f"). You get a prompt in the bottom line (the
 so-called minibuffer), enter your file name there. You
 get tab completions.

Then there are menus...


Do the above replacement.


   Go to the top of your buffer (this is what you would call
   "your file": Emacs calls the things which hold your text
   while you are on them "buffers").
   Do M-x (hold Meta, most of the time your Alt key, then "x").
   You get a command for a prompt. Enter "query-replace-regexp"
   (you get tab completions, so "que" TAB "re" TAB should suffice,
   roughly speaking). Enter the regular expression you're looking
   for. Then ENTER, then your replacement.


Save and close the file.


   To save, C-x C-s. I don't quite know what you mean by
   "close".

   To quit Emacs, C-x C-c.

Now I don't quite understand what you mean above with your
example, and whether it can be expressed by a regular expression
at all, but that is for a second go.


When searching for information on regular expressions I came across one 
that did it by searching for

   {"1 thru 9" OR "10 thru 99" OR "100 thru 999"} .
I lost the reference ;<





First, find out whether your beloved Pluma can deliver. I'm
sure it can. Unless you want to embark in the Emacs adventure
(very much recommended, mind you, but not the most efficient
path to your problem at hand).


I'm still essentially at the stage of flow-charting how I need to handle 
individual chapters. As there ~1000 chapters, I'll want to use something 
that can handle macros eventually.


Thank you.



Cheers

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Max Nikulin]

On 29/06/2024 11:48, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

   Do M-x (hold Meta, most of the time your Alt key, then "x").
   You get a command for a prompt. Enter "query-replace-regexp"


And to get help for this function

C-h f query-replace-regexp RET

To open user manual switch to the help buffer and press "i".

A side note since an answer to the asked question has been posted.

To manipulate with HTML it is better to write a script in some 
programming language, e.g. for python there are lxml etree and 
BeautifulSoup packages. This way it is easier to maintain valid document 
structure with paired opening and closing tags.


I have not tried Emacs lisp facilities for dealing with HTML.

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/28/2024 10:23 PM, Charles Curley wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 20:53:50 +
Michael Kjörling  wrote:


$ for v in $(seq 1 119); do sed -i 's,,,g' ./*.html; done

Be sure to have a copy in case something goes wrong; and diff(1) a few
files afterwards to make sure that the result is as you intended.


Having done that (or similar), don't forget to change the relevant
 closing tags to  closing tags. However, there may be
other  closing tags you don't want to change because they close
other  tags we haven't seen.


Chuckle ;} The appropriate "" to be replaced by "" is 
ALWAYS preceded by "#160;" .



So you may prefer to use regexes as
Murphy intended, handling both the opening and closing tags at the same
time, leaving the intervening text intact.


In this particular case I suspect it would become overly complex.
I've already discovered that the order of edits is important.

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/28/2024 03:53 PM, Michael Kjörling wrote:

On 28 Jun 2024 14:04 -0500, from rowl...@access.net (Richard Owlett):

I need to replace ANY occurrence of
 
   thru [at most]
 
by
 

I'm reformatting a Bible stored in HTML format for a particular set of
vision impaired seniors (myself included). Each chapter is in its own file.

How do I open a file.
Do the above replacement.
Save and close the file.


Ignoring the question about Emacs 


Emacs *CAN NOT* be ignored.
It is the _available_ editor known to be capable of handling regular 
expressions.



and focusing on the goal (your
question otherwise is an excellent example of a XY question), this is
not something regular expressions are very good at.


HUH ??


However, since
it's presumably a once-only operation, I assume that you can live with
it being done in a suboptimal way in terms of performance.

In that case, assuming for simplicity that all the files are in a
single directory, you could try something similar to:

$ for v in $(seq 1 119); do sed -i 's,,,g' 
./*.html; done


I'll have to investigate sed further.
My project is not yet to the point of automatically editing ALL 
chapters. I need to first establish how to edit all VERSES of an 
individual chapter.





Be sure to have a copy in case something goes wrong; and diff(1) a few
files afterwards to make sure that the result is as you intended.


ROFL ;} No one would define me as a "programmer". I took an introduction 
to computers course as a E.E. student in the 60's. Most of my jobs 
required background in component level analog electronics. Got one 
assignment because I was not "afraid" of 8080 ;}




Yes, it almost certainly can be done with a single sed (or other
similar tool) invocation where the regular expression matches
precisely what you want it to match. But unless this is something you
will do very often, I tend to prefer readability over being clever,
even if the readable version is somewhat less performant.

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/28/2024 02:33 PM, Van Snyder wrote:

On Fri, 2024-06-28 at 14:04 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

Pluma is my editor of choice.
*BUT* it can NOT handle Search and Replace operations involving
regular
expressions.

Emacs can. It has much verbose documentation.
But examples seem rather scarce.


nedit can handle regular expressions in search and replace operations.
I find nedit easier to use than emacs.


I've see references to nedit before.
But circumstances require I use this system in its current configuration.

Thank you.

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/28/2024 02:17 PM, didier gaumet wrote:

Le 28/06/2024 à 21:04, Richard Owlett a écrit :

Pluma is my editor of choice.
*BUT* it can NOT handle Search and Replace operations involving 
regular expressions.

[...]

Hello Richard,

According to the Mate wiki, Pluma handles regular expressions the Perl way:
https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/mate-desktop/applications/pluma/


Hadn't seen that page. I based my opinion on what I saw when doing a 
Search and Replace. Also Pluma's Help function doesn't mention it.



https://perldoc.perl.org/perlre


That page is thin on examples. But now knowing that Pluma does things 
"the Perl way" I can do a web search.


Thank you.

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[tomas]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 09:17:14PM +0200, didier gaumet wrote:
> Le 28/06/2024 à 21:04, Richard Owlett a écrit :
> > Pluma is my editor of choice.
> > *BUT* it can NOT handle Search and Replace operations involving regular
> > expressions.
> [...]
> 
> Hello Richard,
> 
> According to the Mate wiki, Pluma handles regular expressions the Perl way:
> https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/mate-desktop/applications/pluma/
> https://perldoc.perl.org/perlre

See? I was sure of that. And Perl style regexps are actually somewhat
friendlier than Emacs style (they're roughly one decennium younger).

Thanks, Didier :-)

Cheers
-- 
t


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[tomas]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 02:04:37PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> Pluma is my editor of choice.
> *BUT* it can NOT handle Search and Replace operations involving regular
> expressions.

I would be *very* surprised if an editor, these days and age
can't do regular expressions. Really.

> Emacs can. It has much verbose documentation.
> But examples seem rather scarce.

Of course, Emacs is the best editor out there, by a long shot.
But learning it is a long and panoramic road. You should at
least have a rough idea that you want to take it.

> I need to replace ANY occurrence of
> 
>   thru [at most]
> 
> by
> 
> 
> I'm reformatting a Bible stored in HTML format for a particular set of
> vision impaired seniors (myself included). Each chapter is in its own file.
> 
> How do I open a file.

Two ways of skinning that cat:

  - in a terminal, type "emacs "
  - in an open Emacs instance (be it terminal or GUI, your
choice), type C-x C-f (hold CTRL, then "x", while holding
CTRL then "f"). You get a prompt in the bottom line (the
so-called minibuffer), enter your file name there. You
get tab completions.

Then there are menus...

> Do the above replacement.

  Go to the top of your buffer (this is what you would call
  "your file": Emacs calls the things which hold your text
  while you are on them "buffers").
  Do M-x (hold Meta, most of the time your Alt key, then "x").
  You get a command for a prompt. Enter "query-replace-regexp"
  (you get tab completions, so "que" TAB "re" TAB should suffice,
  roughly speaking). Enter the regular expression you're looking
  for. Then ENTER, then your replacement.

> Save and close the file.

  To save, C-x C-s. I don't quite know what you mean by
  "close".

  To quit Emacs, C-x C-c.

Now I don't quite understand what you mean above with your
example, and whether it can be expressed by a regular expression
at all, but that is for a second go.

First, find out whether your beloved Pluma can deliver. I'm
sure it can. Unless you want to embark in the Emacs adventure
(very much recommended, mind you, but not the most efficient
path to your problem at hand).

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Charles Curley]

On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 20:53:50 +
Michael Kjörling  wrote:

> $ for v in $(seq 1 119); do sed -i 's, id="V'$v'">,,g' ./*.html; done
> 
> Be sure to have a copy in case something goes wrong; and diff(1) a few
> files afterwards to make sure that the result is as you intended.

Having done that (or similar), don't forget to change the relevant
 closing tags to  closing tags. However, there may be
other  closing tags you don't want to change because they close
other  tags we haven't seen. So you may prefer to use regexes as
Murphy intended, handling both the opening and closing tags at the same
time, leaving the intervening text intact.



-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Michael Kjörling]

On 28 Jun 2024 14:04 -0500, from rowl...@access.net (Richard Owlett):
> I need to replace ANY occurrence of
> 
>   thru [at most]
> 
> by
> 
> 
> I'm reformatting a Bible stored in HTML format for a particular set of
> vision impaired seniors (myself included). Each chapter is in its own file.
> 
> How do I open a file.
> Do the above replacement.
> Save and close the file.

Ignoring the question about Emacs and focusing on the goal (your
question otherwise is an excellent example of a XY question), this is
not something regular expressions are very good at. However, since
it's presumably a once-only operation, I assume that you can live with
it being done in a suboptimal way in terms of performance.

In that case, assuming for simplicity that all the files are in a
single directory, you could try something similar to:

$ for v in $(seq 1 119); do sed -i 's,,,g' 
./*.html; done

Be sure to have a copy in case something goes wrong; and diff(1) a few
files afterwards to make sure that the result is as you intended.

Yes, it almost certainly can be done with a single sed (or other
similar tool) invocation where the regular expression matches
precisely what you want it to match. But unless this is something you
will do very often, I tend to prefer readability over being clever,
even if the readable version is somewhat less performant.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Van Snyder]

On Fri, 2024-06-28 at 14:04 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> Pluma is my editor of choice.
> *BUT* it can NOT handle Search and Replace operations involving
> regular 
> expressions.
> 
> Emacs can. It has much verbose documentation.
> But examples seem rather scarce.

nedit can handle regular expressions in search and replace operations.
I find nedit easier to use than emacs.

> 
> I need to replace ANY occurrence of
>  
>    thru [at most]
>  
> by
>  
> 
> I'm reformatting a Bible stored in HTML format for a particular set
> of 
> vision impaired seniors (myself included). Each chapter is in its own
> file.
> 
> How do I open a file.
> Do the above replacement.
> Save and close the file.
> 
> Help please.
> TIA
> 

Re: Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[didier gaumet]

Le 28/06/2024 à 21:04, Richard Owlett a écrit :

Pluma is my editor of choice.
*BUT* it can NOT handle Search and Replace operations involving regular 
expressions.

[...]

Hello Richard,

According to the Mate wiki, Pluma handles regular expressions the Perl way:
https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/mate-desktop/applications/pluma/
https://perldoc.perl.org/perlre

Need help with narroely focused use case of Emacs

[Richard Owlett]

Pluma is my editor of choice.
*BUT* it can NOT handle Search and Replace operations involving regular 
expressions.


Emacs can. It has much verbose documentation.
But examples seem rather scarce.

I need to replace ANY occurrence of

  thru [at most]

by


I'm reformatting a Bible stored in HTML format for a particular set of 
vision impaired seniors (myself included). Each chapter is in its own file.


How do I open a file.
Do the above replacement.
Save and close the file.

Help please.
TIA

Re: Predictable network device names [was: Please help me identify package so I can report an important bug

[tomas]

On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 06:59:49AM +0200, Kamil Jońca wrote:
> to...@tuxteam.de writes:

[...]

> > and of course, if you are using a desktop environment and NetworkManager
> > or systemd-networkd, it's probably better to go with the flow and let
> > them do.
> 
> About year ago none of them was able to handle my config.
> (Some interfaces used by vms , and proper snat for them.)

I've supported those only for pretty bog standard setups. Mainly end users
who have to cope with longer stretches without local friendly hackers.

I don't believe they are useful for special situations or knowledgeable
users.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Predictable network device names [was: Please help me identify package so I can report an important bug

[Kamil Jońca]

to...@tuxteam.de writes:

> On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 06:30:27AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>
> [following up on myself, bad style, I know]
>
>> For my laptop, I very much prefer to say "sudo ifup eth0" than to
>> say "sudo ifup en0ps&&@*#!☠" thankyouverymuch :)
>
> and of course, if you are using a desktop environment and NetworkManager
> or systemd-networkd, it's probably better to go with the flow and let
> them do.

About year ago none of them was able to handle my config.
(Some interfaces used by vms , and proper snat for them.)


KJ

-- 
http://wolnelektury.pl/wesprzyj/teraz/

Predictable network device names [was: Please help me identify package so I can report an important bug

[tomas]

On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 06:30:27AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

[following up on myself, bad style, I know]

> For my laptop, I very much prefer to say "sudo ifup eth0" than to
> say "sudo ifup en0ps&&@*#!☠" thankyouverymuch :)

and of course, if you are using a desktop environment and NetworkManager
or systemd-networkd, it's probably better to go with the flow and let
them do.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Please help me identify package so I can report an important bug

[tomas]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 03:16:41PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 09:01:44PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> > Mine loks like this:
> > 
> >   GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet net.ifnames=0"
> 
> People who are thinking of doing this should take a moment to consider
> whether it will be better or worse than the default.

Absolutely. I did, and I decided that in my case, this is the better
choice...

> For a machine that has exactly one ethernet interface, this is a vast
> improvement over the default.  Your interface will always be named
> "eth0" no matter what crazy things happen on the PCI bus.

...but it's not always, as you say.

> For a machine with multiple interfaces, however, the original problem
> that "predictable interface names" were supposed to solve is still an
> issue.  The kernel may not assign the names in the same order every
> time you boot.  In that situation, "net.ifnames=0" is not likely to
> be an improvement.  You'd be better off using systemd.link(5) files to
> customize your interface names according to your own specific needs.

I think PCI is not the worst offender. The worst is if you have a bunch
of adapters hanging off an USB tree. Then, as they say, God does play
dice :-)

Back Then (TM) (I think it was a Debian 3.x aka Sarge), a bunch of
us cobbled a "router thingy" together on some off-the-shelf hardware.
It had four Ethernets hanging off whatever PC bus was fashionable
back then (too lazy to look it up).

Not many of those were sold, luckily :-)

One was for "the bad Internet", the other three for "the inside".
Our big fear was that, after a BIOS upgrade the interfaces would
come up in a mangled order. That would have been a good application
of this scheme (provided it works at all: I'm somewhat sceptic.
Hardware and firmware are known to do... things).

We ended up going by the card's MAC addresses, at the price of
having a set up step on assembly. But then, if you change one
Ethernet card...

Alas, you can't do it right.

For my laptop, I very much prefer to say "sudo ifup eth0" than to
say "sudo ifup en0ps&&@*#!☠" thankyouverymuch :)

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Please help me identify package so I can report an important bug

[debian-user]

Richard  wrote:
> Good catch. With the title of this thread and not seeing any proper
> description of what's actually wrong on GitHub, I figured the change
> of the adapter name was meant. Yes, with MAC randomization, that's
> what you'll get. But it's nothing Debian defaults to. So question is,
> can this be disabled on Proxmox? But with this hint, it should be
> easy enough to figure out if this can be deactivated on the affected
> systems, and if not the bug reports must be against these issues, as
> Debian itself doesn't do such things. If it is an issue with Debian
> preventing the disablement, the devs need to talk to each other.
> 
> Richard
> 
> Am Mi., 12. Juni 2024 um 17:10 Uhr schrieb Jeffrey Walton <
> noloa...@gmail.com>:  
> 
> > The random MAC address discussed in the bug report (with mention of
> > Network Manager) could be
> > <
> > https://blogs.gnome.org/thaller/2016/08/26/mac-address-spoofing-in-networkmanager-1-4-0/
> >   
> > >.  
> >
> > Jeff

I think before anybody else suggests anything, they should read
https://lore.kernel.org/netdev/20240326092459.gg403...@kernel.org/T/

Re: Please help me identify package so I can report an important bug

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 09:01:44PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> No need. You can have your traditional names (I do). Just add
> "net.ifnames=0" (if necessry separated by a space, should
> other stuff be already there) to your GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT
> in your /etc/default/grub, then ru update-grub.
> 
> Mine loks like this:
> 
>   GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet net.ifnames=0"

People who are thinking of doing this should take a moment to consider
whether it will be better or worse than the default.

For a machine that has exactly one ethernet interface, this is a vast
improvement over the default.  Your interface will always be named
"eth0" no matter what crazy things happen on the PCI bus.

For a machine with multiple interfaces, however, the original problem
that "predictable interface names" were supposed to solve is still an
issue.  The kernel may not assign the names in the same order every
time you boot.  In that situation, "net.ifnames=0" is not likely to
be an improvement.  You'd be better off using systemd.link(5) files to
customize your interface names according to your own specific needs.

> > > https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkInterfaceNames

Re: Please help me identify package so I can report an important bug

[tomas]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 02:30:40PM -0400, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> On Wednesday 12 June 2024 06:54:54 am Richard wrote:
> > But also, just
> > searching the web for this topic, you should have come across this
> > answering your questions: https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkInterfaceNames
> > 
> 
> Wow.  Just wow...
> 
> That sort of thing just drives me crazy!  :-)
> 
> I can see sticking with older versions of some things.

No need. You can have your traditional names (I do). Just add
"net.ifnames=0" (if necessry separated by a space, should
other stuff be already there) to your GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT
in your /etc/default/grub, then ru update-grub.

Mine loks like this:

  GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet net.ifnames=0"

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Please help me identify package so I can report an important bug

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Wednesday 12 June 2024 06:54:54 am Richard wrote:
> But also, just
> searching the web for this topic, you should have come across this
> answering your questions: https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkInterfaceNames
> 

Wow.  Just wow...

That sort of thing just drives me crazy!  :-)

I can see sticking with older versions of some things.

-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

Re: Please help me identify package so I can report an important bug

[Richard]

Good catch. With the title of this thread and not seeing any proper
description of what's actually wrong on GitHub, I figured the change of the
adapter name was meant. Yes, with MAC randomization, that's what you'll
get. But it's nothing Debian defaults to. So question is, can this be
disabled on Proxmox? But with this hint, it should be easy enough to figure
out if this can be deactivated on the affected systems, and if not the bug
reports must be against these issues, as Debian itself doesn't do such
things. If it is an issue with Debian preventing the disablement, the devs
need to talk to each other.

Richard

Am Mi., 12. Juni 2024 um 17:10 Uhr schrieb Jeffrey Walton <
noloa...@gmail.com>:

> The random MAC address discussed in the bug report (with mention of
> Network Manager) could be
> <
> https://blogs.gnome.org/thaller/2016/08/26/mac-address-spoofing-in-networkmanager-1-4-0/
> >.
>
> Jeff
>

Re: Please help me identify package so I can report an important bug

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 10:33 AM Richard  wrote:
>
> Question is, does it make that much sense to report it to Debian directly? 
> Are you encountering this issue on Debian itself or 
> Armbian/Raspbian/whatever? You reported this to the Raspberry Pi GitHub, so 
> I'd expect them to take this up with the upstream devs themselves, so by the 
> time Trixie is being released, it may already be included.
>
> But besides that, what you describe in the first link sounds to me not like a 
> bug, but as a well thought-through decision. Network adapter names like eth0 
> have been dropped with Debian 11 (I think, maybe even 10). So don't get your 
> hopes up too high to ever see this coming back. But also, just searching the 
> web for this topic, you should have come across this answering your 
> questions: https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkInterfaceNames

The random MAC address discussed in the bug report (with mention of
Network Manager) could be
.

Jeff

Re: Please help me identify package so I can report an important bug

[Richard]

Question is, does it make that much sense to report it to Debian directly?
Are you encountering this issue on Debian itself or
Armbian/Raspbian/whatever? You reported this to the Raspberry Pi GitHub, so
I'd expect them to take this up with the upstream devs themselves, so by
the time Trixie is being released, it may already be included.

But besides that, what you describe in the first link sounds to me not like
a bug, but as a well thought-through decision. Network adapter names like
eth0 have been dropped with Debian 11 (I think, maybe even 10). So don't
get your hopes up too high to ever see this coming back. But also, just
searching the web for this topic, you should have come across this
answering your questions: https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkInterfaceNames

Richard

Am Mi., 12. Juni 2024 um 12:43 Uhr schrieb Peter Goodall <
pjgood...@gmail.com>:

> Hello,
>
> This  bug, or a close relative, has already been reported in
> https://github.com/raspberrypi/bookworm-feedback/issues/239
> as 'Predictable network names broken for ASIX USB ethernet in kernel
> 6.6.20'
>
> I added a comment reporting my experience in Proxmox here:
>
> https://github.com/raspberrypi/bookworm-feedback/issues/239#issuecomment-2162166863
>
> Because it happens in proxmox and rpi I assume its Debian or higher. I
> have not reported a Debian bug before...
>
> Thanks,
> --Peter G
>

Please help me identify package so I can report an important bug

[Peter Goodall]

Hello,

This  bug, or a close relative, has already been reported in
https://github.com/raspberrypi/bookworm-feedback/issues/239
as 'Predictable network names broken for ASIX USB ethernet in kernel 6.6.20'

I added a comment reporting my experience in Proxmox here:
https://github.com/raspberrypi/bookworm-feedback/issues/239#issuecomment-2162166863

Because it happens in proxmox and rpi I assume its Debian or higher. I have
not reported a Debian bug before...

Thanks,
--Peter G

Re: Help! secure boot is preventing boot of debian

[Richmond]

"Thomas Schmitt"  writes:

> Hi,
>
> Richmond wrote:
>> OK I got it booted and re-installed grub from debian. But I don't
>> know why it happened, I haven't changed any keys or done anything
>> except an opensuse update. I will ask the opensuse list
>
> I remember to have seen discussions about newly installed shim adding
> names of older shims or bootloaders to something called SBAT.  I find
> in my mailbox a mail with a link to
> https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1209985
>
> About SBAT i found in the web:
>   
> https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub/html_node/Secure-Boot-Advanced-Targeting.html
>   https://github.com/rhboot/shim/blob/main/SBAT.md
>
>
> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas

Thanks. They have a wiki on how to fix this:

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:UEFI#Reset_SBAT_string_for_booting_to_old_shim_in_old_Leap_image

I found re-installing debian's grub easier, until next time perhaps...

Re: Help! secure boot is preventing boot of debian

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Richmond wrote:
> OK I got it booted and re-installed grub from debian. But I don't know
> why it happened, I haven't changed any keys or done anything except an
> opensuse update. I will ask the opensuse list

I remember to have seen discussions about newly installed shim adding
names of older shims or bootloaders to something called SBAT.
I find in my mailbox a mail with a link to
  https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1209985

About SBAT i found in the web:
  
https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub/html_node/Secure-Boot-Advanced-Targeting.html
  https://github.com/rhboot/shim/blob/main/SBAT.md


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Help! secure boot is preventing boot of debian

[Richmond]

Marco Moock  writes:

> Am 01.06.2024 um 20:01:43 Uhr schrieb Richmond:
>
>> Should I disable secure boot temporarily? will that allow booting?
>
> That should allow booting it.
>
> Have you changed anything at the keys in the EFI (maybe UEFI
> firmware update)?

OK I got it booted and re-installed grub from debian. But I don't know
why it happened, I haven't changed any keys or done anything except an
opensuse update. I will ask the opensuse list

Re: Help! secure boot is preventing boot of debian

[Marco Moock]

Am 01.06.2024 um 20:01:43 Uhr schrieb Richmond:

> Should I disable secure boot temporarily? will that allow booting?

That should allow booting it.

Have you changed anything at the keys in the EFI (maybe UEFI
firmware update)?

-- 
Gruß
Marco

Send unsolicited bulk mail to 1717264903mu...@cartoonies.org

Help! secure boot is preventing boot of debian

[Richmond]

I have a PC with two operating systems installed, Debian, and Opensuse.
Both are installed with Secure Boot. Each has its own grub installation.
Normally I boot debian, and if I want to boot opensuse I select UEFI
settings from the main menu and select opensuse from there which
launches the opensuse grub. Today I booted opensuse, and did an update
which included an update to grub. Now I cannot boot debian as it says
bad shim or bad signature.

Each grub menu has the alternate O.S. on it, but booting debian from the
opensuse grub menu did not work either.

Should I disable secure boot temporarily? will that allow booting?

RE: Shopify help center

[Mublex Kion]

Hello store owner, how are you doing today, I am Mublex Kion, a shopify
expert, I visited your store recently and I appreciate your effort towards
setting up the store, However towards my analysis I can see that you have
not implemented the latest strategy used by successful Shopify store owners
in the recent month which is Google Shopping Ads(GSAs). If I should ask,
Did you know what GSAs is and how it can benefit your store?

Re: Help to report a bug related to a usb3 lan adapter driver

[Charles Curley]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 20:57:00 +0200
user7415 same  wrote:

> I had a discussion in stack exchange related to the problem that is
> well explained here:
> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/774594/debian-12-all-of-sudden-my-usb3-lan-adapter-get-assigned-random-mac-address-ea
> 
> For what I understood the problem was fixed in 6.8, but I'm using
> debian 12 that will never use that so much new kernel I guess, could
> you help me to report officially the bug so that the upstream channel
> will correct it by the 6.1.0-22 version ?

Bookwom backports has linux-image-6.6.13+bpo-amd64. You might try that.
https://backports.debian.org/

It just so happens I have one of the same beasties. I just plugged it
in to a machine running kernel 6.6.13+bpo-amd64, unplugged it, waited
20 seconds, and plugged it in to another machine running kernel
6.5.0-0.deb12.4-amd64. I then plugged it into a machine with
6.6.13+bpo-amd64. All three times I got a MAC address of
8c:ae:4c:d6:22:17. So either of those kernels might well work for you.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Help to report a bug related to a usb3 lan adapter driver

[user7415 same]

Hello,

I'm not very skilled in what concerns to kernel patching and compiling.

I had a discussion in stack exchange related to the problem that is well
explained here:
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/774594/debian-12-all-of-sudden-my-usb3-lan-adapter-get-assigned-random-mac-address-ea

For what I understood the problem was fixed in 6.8, but I'm using debian 12
that will never use that so much new kernel I guess, could you help me to
report officially the bug so that the upstream channel will correct it by
the 6.1.0-22 version ?

Thank you very much!

Re: help needed to get a bookworm install to succeed

[Curt]

On 2024-04-01, Michel Verdier  wrote:
> On 2024-04-01, DdB wrote:
>
>>> A computer with a 6-core processor, 64 GB memory, and 9 drive bays/
>>> ports that cannot boot USB?  That does not make sense.
>>
>> Why not?
>
> Perhaps because usb boot is available since a very long time
>

The OP informed us that the board was over ten years old, and does not
offer USB booting.

I would assume he would know, and you would not.

SOLVED (was: Re: help needed to get a bookworm install to succeed)

[DdB]

Am 01.04.2024 um 18:52 schrieb David Christensen:
> A bad USB flash drive would explain why you cannot boot the Debian
> installer.  Please buy a good quality USB 3.0+ flash drive and try again.

A friend of mine just let me use an external CD-Drive with the netboot
image. This is already the third time, i am restarting the installation
process, due to my false assumptions about the intelligence within the
installer.

The last time, i was quite happy until i came to notice, that partitions
were not aligned with physical sector boundaries, which i assumed would
be elementary best practice.

But apart from losing some of my illusions the hard way, all is well.
A big thank you to all the crowd offering suggestions and encouragement.

so long, DdB

Re: help needed to get a bookworm install to succeed

[David Christensen]

On 4/1/24 03:10, DdB wrote:

Am 01.04.2024 um 07:44 schrieb David Christensen:

Please post a console session that identifies the ISO you are using,
verifies the checksum, burns the ISO to a USB flash drive, and compares
the ISO against the flash drive.


Ok, in the meantime, i came to similar conclusions and found that the
USB-stick i was using, had consistent read errors at the first 2
gigabytes after having been used for years as memory extension in my
router. Fixed that and will replace the stick.



A bad USB flash drive would explain why you cannot boot the Debian 
installer.  Please buy a good quality USB 3.0+ flash drive and try again.



David

Re: help needed to get a bookworm install to succeed

[Michel Verdier]

On 2024-04-01, DdB wrote:

>> A computer with a 6-core processor, 64 GB memory, and 9 drive bays/
>> ports that cannot boot USB?  That does not make sense.
>
> Why not?

Perhaps because usb boot is available since a very long time

> *should* is the correct word. The board being over 10 years old, it does
> not offer USB booting, no way.

I have one 20+ old which can usb boot but need to switch it in the
bios. The usb choice appears in the bios only after having plugged the
usb device. And of course detecting a valid usb device. You should check
that.

Re: help needed to get a bookworm install to succeed

[DdB]

Am 01.04.2024 um 07:44 schrieb David Christensen:
> 
> 
> A computer with a 6-core processor, 64 GB memory, and 9 drive bays/
> ports that cannot boot USB?  That does not make sense.

Why not?

> 
> 
> Please post a console session that identifies the ISO you are using,
> verifies the checksum, burns the ISO to a USB flash drive, and compares
> the ISO against the flash drive.

Ok, in the meantime, i came to similar conclusions and found that the
USB-stick i was using, had consistent read errors at the first 2
gigabytes after having been used for years as memory extension in my
router. Fixed that and will replace the stick.

> 
> 
> Then insert the USB flash drive into a USB port on the the target
> computer, power up and enter Setup, reset the settings to factory
> defaults, enable USB booting, set the USB flash drive as the first boot
> device, save, and exit.  The Debian installer should then boot.

*should* is the correct word. The board being over 10 years old, it does
not offer USB booting, no way. It is an early server board that supports
that much ECC, which is great for zfs.
> 
> 
> David

But i received many hints and ideas and just have to wait for a friend
of mine to overcome my physical handicap to see some progress. :-)

Tx 2 everyone
DdB

Re: help needed to get a bookworm install to succeed

[David Christensen]

On 3/31/24 02:18, DdB wrote:

Hello list,

i intend to create a huge backup server from some oldish hardware.
Hardware has been partly refurbished and offers 1 SSD + 8 HDD on a 6core
Intel with 64 GB RAM.
Already before assembling the hardware, grub was working from the SSD,
which got lvm partitioning and is basically empty. As i have no working
CD drive nor can this old machine boot from USB, i put an ISO for
bookworm onto an lvm-LV. Using grub, i can manually boot from that ISO
and see the first installer screens. But after asking some questions,
the installer wants to mount the external media (ISO), and does not find
it on sd[a-z], then aborts.
By switching to Desktop 4, i can see the attempt to search for the
"CD"-drive, which is bound to fail.
I am not familiar with the very restricted shell, that is available from
the installer (busybox) and have not yet found an approach to circumvent
my problems. i would like to use the installer, as debootstrapping would
necessitate alot more knowledge than mine.

Suggestions are welcome :-)
DdB




A computer with a 6-core processor, 64 GB memory, and 9 drive bays/ 
ports that cannot boot USB?  That does not make sense.



Please post a console session that identifies the ISO you are using, 
verifies the checksum, burns the ISO to a USB flash drive, and compares 
the ISO against the flash drive.



Then insert the USB flash drive into a USB port on the the target 
computer, power up and enter Setup, reset the settings to factory 
defaults, enable USB booting, set the USB flash drive as the first boot 
device, save, and exit.  The Debian installer should then boot.



David

Re: help needed to get a bookworm install to succeed

[David Wright]

On Sun 31 Mar 2024 at 11:18:30 (+0200), DdB wrote:

> Already before assembling the hardware, grub was working from the SSD,
> which got lvm partitioning and is basically empty. As i have no working
> CD drive nor can this old machine boot from USB, i put an ISO for
> bookworm onto an lvm-LV. Using grub, i can manually boot from that ISO
> and see the first installer screens. But after asking some questions,
> the installer wants to mount the external media (ISO), and does not find
> it on sd[a-z], then aborts.
> By switching to Desktop 4, i can see the attempt to search for the
> "CD"-drive, which is bound to fail.
> I am not familiar with the very restricted shell, that is available from
> the installer (busybox) and have not yet found an approach to circumvent
> my problems. i would like to use the installer, as debootstrapping would
> necessitate alot more knowledge than mine.

My memory of doing this is rusty, as it's a while since my
Seattle2 machine finally expired. I would try downloading the
kernel¹ and initrd from:

  
http://http.us.debian.org/debian/dists/bookworm/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/debian-installer/amd64/

as these can search for the ISO in a greater range of locations.
I'd copy the two files onto the hard disk, and use an entry like:

  menuentry "Install Debian via HTTP" {
search --no-floppy --label --set=root noah03
linux   /boot/linux priority=low
initrd  /boot/initrd.gz
  }

in Grub to boot it. (Add a custom entry, or just edit a preexisting
entry to suit. BTW I use LABELs on my disks.) Make sure the kernel
versions are the same for those two files and the ISO.

https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/apas02.en.html#howto-getting-images-hard-disk
https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/ch05s01.en.html#boot-initrd
https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/ch04s04.en.html

¹ I see linux, rather than vmlinuz, at that location now.

Cheers,
David.

Re: help needed to get a bookworm install to succeed

[Michael Kjörling]

On 31 Mar 2024 11:18 +0200, from debianl...@potentially-spam.de-bruyn.de (DdB):
> As i have no working
> CD drive nor can this old machine boot from USB, i put an ISO for
> bookworm onto an lvm-LV. Using grub, i can manually boot from that ISO
> and see the first installer screens. But after asking some questions,
> the installer wants to mount the external media (ISO), and does not find
> it on sd[a-z], then aborts.

I would suggest to write the _same_ ISO file to a USB stick of
sufficient size, and leave the USB stick connected while running the
installer. The installer should detect the USB stick and use that as
the source for installation, regardless of how you booted into the
installer.

As long as both media contain the same data, this should be completely
unproblematic.

Think of it as a variation of, in the old days, booting the installer
from a floppy (on a system that couldn't boot from CD) but actually
installing from a CD.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: help needed to get a bookworm install to succeed

[Felix Miata]

DdB composed on 2024-03-31 11:18 (UTC+0200):

> Suggestions are welcome :-)

https://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/

All my installations use this NET method. What I usually do though is extract
linux and initrd.gz from it or directly from the mirrors and load them with Grub
rather than booting the NET .iso.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

Re: help needed to get a bookworm install to succeed

[Geert Stappers]

On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 11:18:30AM +0200, DdB wrote:
> Hello list,
> 
> i intend to create a huge backup server from some oldish hardware.
> Hardware has been partly refurbished and offers 1 SSD + 8 HDD on a 6core
> Intel with 64 GB RAM.
> Already before assembling the hardware, grub was working from the SSD,
> which got lvm partitioning and is basically empty. As i have no working
> CD drive nor can this old machine boot from USB, i put an ISO for
> bookworm onto an lvm-LV.

Not knowing how that was done, I guess disk was taken to another
computer where the lvm-LV was written.

If so:  put the (ISO)image just on the disk, not in LVM.



> Using grub, i can manually boot from that ISO
> and see the first installer screens. But after asking some questions,
> the installer wants to mount the external media (ISO), and does not find
> it on sd[a-z], then aborts.
> By switching to Desktop 4, i can see the attempt to search for the
> "CD"-drive, which is bound to fail.
> I am not familiar with the very restricted shell, that is available from
> the installer (busybox) and have not yet found an approach to circumvent
> my problems. i would like to use the installer, as debootstrapping would
> necessitate alot more knowledge than mine.
> 
> Suggestions are welcome :-)

Original post based:
  Take bootdisk out the back server,
  take the disk to other server.
  Install there, move the disk to the back server.

What I would do:
  Network boot


> DdB
 

Groeten
Geert Stappers
-- 
Silence is hard to parse

help needed to get a bookworm install to succeed

[DdB]

Hello list,

i intend to create a huge backup server from some oldish hardware.
Hardware has been partly refurbished and offers 1 SSD + 8 HDD on a 6core
Intel with 64 GB RAM.
Already before assembling the hardware, grub was working from the SSD,
which got lvm partitioning and is basically empty. As i have no working
CD drive nor can this old machine boot from USB, i put an ISO for
bookworm onto an lvm-LV. Using grub, i can manually boot from that ISO
and see the first installer screens. But after asking some questions,
the installer wants to mount the external media (ISO), and does not find
it on sd[a-z], then aborts.
By switching to Desktop 4, i can see the attempt to search for the
"CD"-drive, which is bound to fail.
I am not familiar with the very restricted shell, that is available from
the installer (busybox) and have not yet found an approach to circumvent
my problems. i would like to use the installer, as debootstrapping would
necessitate alot more knowledge than mine.

Suggestions are welcome :-)
DdB

Re: Problem with sleeping mode ( debian 12 ) please help

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 15:09:34 +0100
Mansour Nasri  wrote:

Hello Mansour,

>Hi I'm using debian 12 in Lenovo yoga legion core i5 12th-gen with
>Nvidia
{cut}

You asked this, or a very similar question, on 29 Feb.  You had two
responses that I saw.  I suggest you review those replies and respond
accordingly.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
This is the fifty first state of the USA
Heartland - The The


pgpj5DMEWWoAs.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Problem with sleeping mode ( debian 12 ) please help

[Mansour Nasri]

Hi I'm using debian 12 in Lenovo yoga legion core i5 12th-gen with Nvidia
RTX 3050 and i'm facing a serious using debian 12 on this PC,
When the PC is on sleep mode ( suspend ) it's doesn't wake up anymore until
forcing shutting down and this each time the PC turns on suspend mode, (
fastboot are disabled )of course, the PC wake up but the screen is totally
black nothing displayed on the screen, ( installed Nvidia drivers from the
APT repo ) and is same problem.

"on my old PC dell i7 10th ( no additional GPU ) i never had this kind of
issue",  please help to resolve this problem I really don't want to back to
windows anymore. Thank you so much

Re: please, help to get the image write done, due to an error. Thank you!

[Steve McIntyre]

Moving this to the debian-user list and setting reply-to accordingly...

On Fri, Feb 09, 2024 at 12:25:15PM +, guido mezzalana wrote:
>Hello
>
>First of all I wish to thank you all Debian's Team! To still enjoy a free OS:)
>
>I am running Ubuntu XFCE and I am using the Disk Image Write to get your lates
>Debian 12.4.1 XFCE on my USB. Unfortunately after a few try I get always an
>error and so I cannot get the job done. I do have a Lenovo X200 which comes
>without DVD writer.

Ummm. What image exactly are you trying to write, and how?

We don't have any images labelled with version 12.4.1. Where did you
get this image from?

What exact errors is the image writer program reporting? Without that
information it's very difficult to help you.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
< sladen> I actually stayed in a hotel and arrived to find a post-it
  note stuck to the mini-bar saying "Paul: This fridge and
  fittings are the correct way around and do not need altering"

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[David Wright]

On Thu 25 Jan 2024 at 12:24:21 (-0500), Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> On Thursday 25 January 2024 09:03:36 am Anssi Saari wrote:
> > On Tue 23 Jan 2024 at 06:32:54 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:
> > > On 1/23/24 06:12, Gremlin wrote:
> > > > On 1/23/24 06:04, gene heskett wrote:
> > > > > On 1/23/24 00:30, Karl Vogel wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 1/22/24 11:31, gene heskett wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > G> How does an 8T backup server sound for another $200 in hdwe?  
> > > > > > Very
> > > > > > G> enticing and I do have the sheckel's.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CQJBSQL
> > > > > > Seagate Desktop 8TB external Hard Drive, 3.5 Inch, USB 3.0 
> > > > > > STGY8000400
> > > > > > $168.18
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > What if you buy two, use one for a complete backup and the other for
> > > > > > incrementals or differentials?  (I know, more than $200...)
> > > > > > 
> > > > > My disastrous experience with the last pair of seagates
> > > > > preclude exploring that path, ever again. I bought a couple
> > > > > 2T's to replace  2 1T's I had outgrown and had close to 70,000
> > > > > spining hours on the.  They lasted a bit less than 30 days,
> > > > > dropping off the sata cables connecting then, never to be
> > > > > found again. Then I find they were shingled tech, and helium
> > > > > filled so the heads flew lower.

So the helium made the disks "drop off" the SATA cables?
How does that work?

> > > > https://www.howtogeek.com/803276/cmr-vs.-smr-hard-drives-whats-the-difference/
> > > 
> > > I carefully note, the use of Helium and its problems is very carefully
> > > ignored.

What's the connection between shingled disks and helium?

> > Western Digital at least claims to have solved the leaking
> > problem with helium and since they've been making those drives for over
> > a decade, I think it's solved.

When were these leakage incidents? I haven't heard about them;
only Gene's wartime anecdotes about helium passing through inch-thick
walls of Monel with impunity.

> Your source for this?

Indeed, for any of this. As for facts from the internet, I read
this on one page selected at random — well, a top google hit:

  
https://recoverysquad.com.au/what-are-the-advantages-of-helium-sealed-hard-drives/

 "Helium HDDs as compared to standard HDDs

  Helium HDDs offer several advantages over traditional hard drives,
  including:

  [ … ]

  · Their lower power consumption translates into longer battery life for 
portable devices.
  ↑↑↑
  · And lastly, they generate less heat, which can be an issue with traditional 
HDDs.
 ↑↑
  [ … ]

  What are the challenges with Helium Hard Drives?

  The challenges with helium hard drives are that they are expensive to produce 
and
  they have a limited lifespan. The drives tend to run a bit hotter than 
traditional
  hard drives, and they also use more power."  
 ↑↑

WTF?

Cheers,
David.

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[Anssi Saari]

"Roy J. Tellason, Sr."  writes:

> On Thursday 25 January 2024 09:03:36 am Anssi Saari wrote:
>> Western Digital at least claims to have solved the leaking
>> problem with helium and since they've been making those drives for over
>> a decade, I think it's solved.
>
> Your source for this?

The internet, of course. WDs blog, Backblaze, a bunch of news sites,
basically whatever Qwant coughed up. Why?

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Thursday 25 January 2024 09:03:36 am Anssi Saari wrote:
> Western Digital at least claims to have solved the leaking
> problem with helium and since they've been making those drives for over
> a decade, I think it's solved.

Your source for this?

-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[Anssi Saari]

gene heskett  writes:

> I carefully note, the use of Helium and its problems is very carefully
> ignored.

I suppose helium is not required for SMR drives and could be used in CMR
drives too... Western Digital at least claims to have solved the leaking
problem with helium and since they've been making those drives for over
a decade, I think it's solved.

Really a shame how the whole SMR mess happened. For the last decade or
so I thought I can just double the size of my little "stuff" server
(mirrored 1 TB drives) by bigger 2.5" drives. But no, first they came
out with fat 2 TB drives and then the slim drives all went SMR. There
was a time when suitable drives were available but I wasn't shopping
then. So instead of replacing just the drives, I replaced
everything. The new server is way faster and has a lot more storage but
it's also noisier and slower to wake due to the 3.5" drives.

Re: Powered USB hub [was: Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help]

[Anssi Saari]

Max Nikulin  writes:

> Purchasing a powered USB hub, I made a mistake. I have not checked
> compatibility with hubctl in advance.
> https://github.com/mvp/uhubctl/

Wow, that's very cool. I wonder if there's anything similar for USB
switches? I have one that's software controllable but it's not great for
my purpose, which is doing the K and M parts of a poor man's KVM switch.

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[Karl Vogel]

On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 06:05:29AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> On 1/23/24 00:30, Karl Vogel wrote:
> >>> On 1/22/24 11:31, gene heskett wrote:
> >
> > G> How does an 8T backup server sound for another $200 in hdwe?  Very
> > G> enticing and I do have the sheckel's.
> >
> > https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CQJBSQL
> > Seagate Desktop 8TB external Hard Drive, 3.5 Inch, USB 3.0 STGY8000400
> > $168.18
> >
> > What if you buy two, use one for a complete backup and the other for
> > incrementals or differentials?  (I know, more than $200...)
> 
> My disastrous experience with the last pair of seagates preclude exploring
> that path, ever again.

Sorry, the Seagate was just an example -- I prefer Western Digital myself.
My only point was using one or two external drives for backups.

-- 
Karl Vogel  I don't speak for anyone but myself

And as we all know from experiments conducted during the Korean War, Diane,
sleep deprivation is a one-way ticket to temporary psychosis.
--FBI Special Agent Dale Cooper, "Twin Peaks"

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[gene heskett]

On 1/22/24 22:48, Stefan Monnier wrote:

some sort of 2T SSD's that comes as a usb-c drive, skipping the sata
convertor entirely at $27/copy. If it works as an 8T lvm with a 2T holding


AFAIK 2T for $27 doesn't exist yet in the current real world.
You can find a fair number of creatively sized USB disks in that price
range, but they are lying (tho admittedly, they tend to lye in a more
obvious way with claimed capacities of 30TB or even more).

This doesn't pass my scam detector.  I hope it's wrong for once.

So do I Stefan. But somebody had to test and report.  And I won't starve 
if t fails.


 Stefan

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[gene heskett]

On 1/23/24 06:12, Gremlin wrote:

On 1/23/24 06:04, gene heskett wrote:

On 1/23/24 00:30, Karl Vogel wrote:

On 1/22/24 11:31, gene heskett wrote:


G> How does an 8T backup server sound for another $200 in hdwe?  Very
G> enticing and I do have the sheckel's.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CQJBSQL
Seagate Desktop 8TB external Hard Drive, 3.5 Inch, USB 3.0 STGY8000400
$168.18

What if you buy two, use one for a complete backup and the other for
incrementals or differentials?  (I know, more than $200...)

My disastrous experience with the last pair of seagates preclude 
exploring that path, ever again. I bought a couple 2T's to replace  2 
1T's I had outgrown and had close to 70,000 spining hours on the.  
They lasted a bit less than 30 days, dropping off the sata cables 
connecting then, never to be found again. Then I find they were 
shingled tech, and helium filled so the heads flew lower.



https://www.howtogeek.com/803276/cmr-vs.-smr-hard-drives-whats-the-difference/


I carefully note, the use of Helium and its problems is very carefully 
ignored.



.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[Gremlin]

On 1/23/24 06:04, gene heskett wrote:

On 1/23/24 00:30, Karl Vogel wrote:

On 1/22/24 11:31, gene heskett wrote:


G> How does an 8T backup server sound for another $200 in hdwe?  Very
G> enticing and I do have the sheckel's.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CQJBSQL
Seagate Desktop 8TB external Hard Drive, 3.5 Inch, USB 3.0 STGY8000400
$168.18

What if you buy two, use one for a complete backup and the other for
incrementals or differentials?  (I know, more than $200...)

My disastrous experience with the last pair of seagates preclude 
exploring that path, ever again. I bought a couple 2T's to replace  2 
1T's I had outgrown and had close to 70,000 spining hours on the.  They 
lasted a bit less than 30 days, dropping off the sata cables connecting 
then, never to be found again. Then I find they were shingled tech, and 
helium filled so the heads flew lower.



https://www.howtogeek.com/803276/cmr-vs.-smr-hard-drives-whats-the-difference/

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[gene heskett]

On 1/23/24 02:31, David Christensen wrote:

On 1/22/24 19:55, gene heskett wrote:

On 1/22/24 21:59, David Christensen wrote:

On 1/22/24 18:44, gene heskett wrote:

On 1/22/24 18:46, David Christensen wrote:

On 1/22/24 11:31, gene heskett wrote:
How does an 8T backup server sound for another $200 in hdwe?  Very 
enticing and I do have the sheckel's.


What hardware?

I clicked on place order, for a 7 port powered usb3 hub, and a 6 
pack of some sort of 2T SSD's that comes as a usb-c drive, skipping 
the sata convertor entirely at $27/copy. If it works as an 8T lvm 
with a 2T holding disk from 5 of them, fine, else it is experience, 
which according to TANSTAAFL, costs money.  Typical of amazon, 
though the drives will be drop shipped from China, arriving Feb. 1 
at earliest.


UNK is if the drives come with an A to C cable, 6" long would be 
sufficient.


URL's?


hub:





Okay.



2T ssd's:





Please use a tool to confirm that the drives actually store 2 TB when 
you receive them.



At that price, you betcha.


David

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[gene heskett]

On 1/23/24 00:30, Karl Vogel wrote:

On 1/22/24 11:31, gene heskett wrote:


G> How does an 8T backup server sound for another $200 in hdwe?  Very
G> enticing and I do have the sheckel's.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CQJBSQL
Seagate Desktop 8TB external Hard Drive, 3.5 Inch, USB 3.0 STGY8000400
$168.18

What if you buy two, use one for a complete backup and the other for
incrementals or differentials?  (I know, more than $200...)

My disastrous experience with the last pair of seagates preclude 
exploring that path, ever again. I bought a couple 2T's to replace  2 
1T's I had outgrown and had close to 70,000 spining hours on the.  They 
lasted a bit less than 30 days, dropping off the sata cables connecting 
then, never to be found again. Then I find they were shingled tech, and 
helium filled so the heads flew lower.


But I have experience with helium in large car load qty's of it and in 
30 days I can guarantee those drives no longer had any Helium in them if 
there was any positive pressure inside them. This was about a year after 
JFK launched his effort to put men on the moon the first time.


A bank of 16 monel bottles, each about a foot in diameter and maybe 12 
feet long, pumped up to about 7500 psia for the night at midnight at 
Stellardyne labs in Sandy Eggo while testing the atlas stuff that gave 
John Glenn his 1st full orbital ride, were down to around 5800 psia at 8 
the next morning when the day shift got there. The Helium atom is so 
small it creeps between the atoms of tha monel, the best alloy for that. 
and heads for outer space never to be seen again.


And that was considered normal, and better thn the 50,000 gallon steel 
tank that caught and recyled the test cells output, we had a 6 stage 
cardox compress in the back yard that suck from that big tank and put it 
back on those monel bottles. With a guvmnt truck bringing in new to 
replace it 2x a week. In those days the guv automatically owned any 
helium recovered from deep in mines by air reduction techniques.  It's a 
precious commodity, worth close to $100,000 a truckload in $1.75 min 
wage days. When its gone, its gone and we will exhaust the planets 
supply by filling party balloons with it. Filling hard drives with it to 
make the heads fly lower is idiocy. Regardless of how thick you cast the 
alu or pot metal of a drive housing, it will be gone much quicker than 
those monel bottles allowed.


They (Seagate) could have gotten a longer term lower head fly by sealing 
them up in a vacuum equ to the top of Everest.


Like Albert Eintsein said, the 2 most common things in the universe are 
stupidity and hydrogen, in that order.


You may not have arrived yet Karl, but I was there, busy testing the 
fuel pressure regulators for Atlas rockets and keeping my wife barefoot 
and pregnant, her choice for both.


Take care, stay warm, dry and well Karl.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[David Christensen]

On 1/22/24 19:55, gene heskett wrote:

On 1/22/24 21:59, David Christensen wrote:

On 1/22/24 18:44, gene heskett wrote:

On 1/22/24 18:46, David Christensen wrote:

On 1/22/24 11:31, gene heskett wrote:
How does an 8T backup server sound for another $200 in hdwe?  Very 
enticing and I do have the sheckel's.


What hardware?

I clicked on place order, for a 7 port powered usb3 hub, and a 6 pack 
of some sort of 2T SSD's that comes as a usb-c drive, skipping the 
sata convertor entirely at $27/copy. If it works as an 8T lvm with a 
2T holding disk from 5 of them, fine, else it is experience, which 
according to TANSTAAFL, costs money.  Typical of amazon, though the 
drives will be drop shipped from China, arriving Feb. 1 at earliest.


UNK is if the drives come with an A to C cable, 6" long would be 
sufficient.


URL's?


hub:





Okay.



2T ssd's:





Please use a tool to confirm that the drives actually store 2 TB when 
you receive them.



David

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[Karl Vogel]

>> On 1/22/24 11:31, gene heskett wrote:

G> How does an 8T backup server sound for another $200 in hdwe?  Very
G> enticing and I do have the sheckel's.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CQJBSQL
Seagate Desktop 8TB external Hard Drive, 3.5 Inch, USB 3.0 STGY8000400
$168.18

What if you buy two, use one for a complete backup and the other for
incrementals or differentials?  (I know, more than $200...)

-- 
Karl Vogel  I don't speak for anyone but myself

I yam Popeye of Borg.  You will be askimilgrated.

Re: Powered USB hub [was: Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, needsyntax help]

[gene heskett]

On 1/22/24 23:10, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 23/01/2024 10:55, gene heskett wrote:

hub:




Purchasing a powered USB hub, I made a mistake. I have not checked 
compatibility with hubctl in advance.

https://github.com/mvp/uhubctl/

.

A valuable tool indeed, bookmarked FFR.  Thank you Max.
Take care, stay warm, dry and well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Powered USB hub [was: Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help]

[Max Nikulin]

On 23/01/2024 10:55, gene heskett wrote:

hub:




Purchasing a powered USB hub, I made a mistake. I have not checked 
compatibility with hubctl in advance.

https://github.com/mvp/uhubctl/

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[gene heskett]

On 1/22/24 21:59, David Christensen wrote:

On 1/22/24 18:44, gene heskett wrote:

On 1/22/24 18:46, David Christensen wrote:

On 1/22/24 11:31, gene heskett wrote:
How does an 8T backup server sound for another $200 in hdwe?  Very 
enticing and I do have the sheckel's.


What hardware?

I clicked on place order, for a 7 port powered usb3 hub, and a 6 pack 
of some sort of 2T SSD's that comes as a usb-c drive, skipping the 
sata convertor entirely at $27/copy. If it works as an 8T lvm with a 
2T holding disk from 5 of them, fine, else it is experience, which 
according to TANSTAAFL, costs money.  Typical of amazon, though the 
drives will be drop shipped from China, arriving Feb. 1 at earliest.


UNK is if the drives come with an A to C cable, 6" long would be 
sufficient.



URL's?


hub:



2T ssd's:




David


.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[Stefan Monnier]

> some sort of 2T SSD's that comes as a usb-c drive, skipping the sata
> convertor entirely at $27/copy. If it works as an 8T lvm with a 2T holding

AFAIK 2T for $27 doesn't exist yet in the current real world.
You can find a fair number of creatively sized USB disks in that price
range, but they are lying (tho admittedly, they tend to lye in a more
obvious way with claimed capacities of 30TB or even more).

This doesn't pass my scam detector.  I hope it's wrong for once.


Stefan

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[David Christensen]

On 1/22/24 18:44, gene heskett wrote:

On 1/22/24 18:46, David Christensen wrote:

On 1/22/24 11:31, gene heskett wrote:
How does an 8T backup server sound for another $200 in hdwe?  Very 
enticing and I do have the sheckel's.


What hardware?

I clicked on place order, for a 7 port powered usb3 hub, and a 6 pack of 
some sort of 2T SSD's that comes as a usb-c drive, skipping the sata 
convertor entirely at $27/copy. If it works as an 8T lvm with a 2T 
holding disk from 5 of them, fine, else it is experience, which 
according to TANSTAAFL, costs money.  Typical of amazon, though the 
drives will be drop shipped from China, arriving Feb. 1 at earliest.


UNK is if the drives come with an A to C cable, 6" long would be 
sufficient.



URL's?


David

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[gene heskett]

On 1/22/24 18:46, David Christensen wrote:

On 1/22/24 11:31, gene heskett wrote:

On 1/22/24 12:54, David Christensen wrote:
Perhaps it is time to switch to another backup system, or build your 
own.

..
That I'm contemplating, using a pi clone but still running the amanda 
I just installed all 3 debs of on a bananapi-m5. 



Okay.


How does an 8T backup server sound for another $200 in hdwe?  Very 
enticing and I do have the sheckel's.



What hardware?

I clicked on place order, for a 7 port powered usb3 hub, and a 6 pack of 
some sort of 2T SSD's that comes as a usb-c drive, skipping the sata 
convertor entirely at $27/copy. If it works as an 8T lvm with a 2T 
holding disk from 5 of them, fine, else it is experience, which 
according to TANSTAAFL, costs money.  Typical of amazon, though the 
drives will be drop shipped from China, arriving Feb. 1 at earliest.


UNK is if the drives come with an A to C cable, 6" long would be sufficient.

Take care, stay warm, dry & well, David.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[David Christensen]

On 1/22/24 11:31, gene heskett wrote:

On 1/22/24 12:54, David Christensen wrote:

Perhaps it is time to switch to another backup system, or build your own.
..
That I'm contemplating, using a pi clone but still running the amanda I 
just installed all 3 debs of on a bananapi-m5. 



Okay.


How does an 8T backup 
server sound for another $200 in hdwe?  Very enticing and I do have the 
sheckel's.



What hardware?


David

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[Stefan Monnier]

> That I'm contemplating, using a pi clone but still running the amanda I just
> installed all 3 debs of on a bananapi-m5.  How does an 8T backup server
> sound for another $200 in hdwe?  Very enticing and I do have the sheckel's.

I remember Amanda fondly from the days when I was backing up a labs
machine to DATs.  And while I see the benefit of using a tool with which
you're familiar, you might want to look at alternatives like Bup, Borg,
Restic, Bupstash, ... (or even Rsync/Rsnapshot).

Amanda was designed specifically to work efficiently when backing up to
a tape device.  If, like most people nowadays, you backup to something
like an HDD or SSD, Amanda is IMO overly complex and slow and doesn't
give you as much functionality as more modern alternatives (alternatives
which simply wouldn't work when backing up to a tape).


Stefan

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[gene heskett]

On 1/22/24 12:54, David Christensen wrote:

On 1/22/24 03:23, gene heskett wrote:

On 1/22/24 04:46, David Christensen wrote:

It appears Amanda has a script API for both the client and the server:

https://manpages.debian.org/buster/amanda-common/amanda-scripts.7.en.html
...
All this is possible David, but needs someone to do it. So far our 
list of volunteers is pretty slim. I once wrote a script that added 
amanda's database to the end of the vtape amanda had just made, making 
a bare metal recovery to the state it had just reported instead of a 
bare metal being one run out of date, but I did that in bash. I've 
never did anything to amanda itself except compile it, its old perl, 
old python and probably older bash, all dumped into the same bowl and 
the mixer turned on high. Amanda, right now, needs 15 years of catchup 
tlc. I haven't even tried to build it since wheezy and I have far 
newer srcs than the current 3.51 here. While I have the /home/amanda 
dir with all that it , i'd have to create anew amanda user with 
passwd-less access to the system to even attempt a build of what I have.



Perhaps it is time to switch to another backup system, or build your own.


David

That I'm contemplating, using a pi clone but still running the amanda I 
just installed all 3 debs of on a bananapi-m5.  How does an 8T backup 
server sound for another $200 in hdwe?  Very enticing and I do have the 
sheckel's.

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: smartctl cannot access my storage, need syntax help

[David Christensen]

On 1/22/24 03:23, gene heskett wrote:

On 1/22/24 04:46, David Christensen wrote:

It appears Amanda has a script API for both the client and the server:

https://manpages.debian.org/buster/amanda-common/amanda-scripts.7.en.html
...
All this is possible David, but needs someone to do it. So far our list 
of volunteers is pretty slim. I once wrote a script that added amanda's 
database to the end of the vtape amanda had just made, making a bare 
metal recovery to the state it had just reported instead of a bare metal 
being one run out of date, but I did that in bash. I've never did 
anything to amanda itself except compile it, its old perl, old python 
and probably older bash, all dumped into the same bowl and the mixer 
turned on high. Amanda, right now, needs 15 years of catchup tlc. I 
haven't even tried to build it since wheezy and I have far newer srcs 
than the current 3.51 here. While I have the /home/amanda dir with all 
that it , i'd have to create anew amanda user with passwd-less access to 
the system to even attempt a build of what I have.



Perhaps it is time to switch to another backup system, or build your own.


David