Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[Hoyt Bailey]

- Original Message - 
From: "Paul Morgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 09:11
Subject: Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved
Debian Project Emergency Communications))


is an interesting and thoughtful man.
>
> Having said that, when I see a watch, it convinces me of the existence of
> the watchmaker (Voltaire?).  There are many watches in the universe, but
> the one, for me, most obviously the product of design is the encoding,
> decoding and replication of DNA.  An elegant solution to the combined
> problems of reproduction and adaptability to a changing environment, with
> opportunities for experimentation thrown in.  I know the work of a
> brilliant engineer when I see it.
>
> This is, of course, simply a personal view.
>
> -- 
> paul
>
> "Don't be so humble.  You're not that great."
> (Golda Meir)
>
Or perhaps it is 15 billion years of what works.
Hoyt



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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[Paul Morgan]

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 04:05:36 +, ben_foley wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 11:23:31AM -0800, Tom wrote:

> david attenborough is one of the few honest humans on the planet. anyone
> who tries to tell you that he's full of shit is missing the point of
> being here, to begin with. the elegance of his explanation for why he
> doesn't believe in god is worth all the trouble it takes to find it. i
> haven't seen the show with the octupii but if he was involved, it must
> have been good.
> 
> ben

David Attenborough is an interesting and thoughtful man.

Having said that, when I see a watch, it convinces me of the existence of
the watchmaker (Voltaire?).  There are many watches in the universe, but
the one, for me, most obviously the product of design is the encoding,
decoding and replication of DNA.  An elegant solution to the combined
problems of reproduction and adaptability to a changing environment, with
opportunities for experimentation thrown in.  I know the work of a
brilliant engineer when I see it.

This is, of course, simply a personal view.

-- 
paul

"Don't be so humble.  You're not that great."
(Golda Meir)



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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[ben_foley]

On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 11:23:31AM -0800, Tom wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 09:57:49AM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote:
> > 
> > Anyway, I have definitely had dogs who had a sense of torture -- lock
> > them outside for a few hours and they would whine, and whine, and whine
> > about being tortured by not being allowed inside
> 
> I saw my dog get embaressed once.  And I saw the dog/mouse thing 
> firsthand.  But there's plenty of other great animals stories not about 
> violence: Octopuses communicate by flashing colors.  In "Trials of 
> Life", they showed 3 octopuses swimming, the one one the left and the 
> one in the middle were flashing in response to each other, but the 
> middle one was only flashing on the left side.  The right side stayed 
> solid white.
> 
> But now I guess 40 people will tell me I never saw that video, and David 
> Attenborough never said "here's an example of Octopuses keeping secrets 
> from each other", and he's really full of shit anyway, because the Apple 
> II was invented in 1975.
> 
>
david attenborough is one of the few honest humans on the planet. anyone
who tries to tell you that he's full of shit is missing the point of
being here, to begin with. the elegance of his explanation for why he
doesn't believe in god is worth all the trouble it takes to find it. i
haven't seen the show with the octupii but if he was involved, it must
have been good.

ben


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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[Tom]

On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 09:57:49AM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote:
> 
> Anyway, I have definitely had dogs who had a sense of torture -- lock
> them outside for a few hours and they would whine, and whine, and whine
> about being tortured by not being allowed inside

I saw my dog get embaressed once.  And I saw the dog/mouse thing 
firsthand.  But there's plenty of other great animals stories not about 
violence: Octopuses communicate by flashing colors.  In "Trials of 
Life", they showed 3 octopuses swimming, the one one the left and the 
one in the middle were flashing in response to each other, but the 
middle one was only flashing on the left side.  The right side stayed 
solid white.

But now I guess 40 people will tell me I never saw that video, and David 
Attenborough never said "here's an example of Octopuses keeping secrets 
from each other", and he's really full of shit anyway, because the Apple 
II was invented in 1975.


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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[Monique Y. Herman]

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 at 11:17 GMT, Klaus Imgrund penned:
> On Sunday 07 December 2003 05:23 am, Tom wrote:
> 
> 
>> Have you ever seen a dog play with a mouse by torturing it?
> 
> Animals don't have a concept of torture.  Most pets rarely kill
> anything and are almost as clueless how to go about it as I am with
> fixing my box.  They are merely what appears to be cruel at times to
> the human bystander.  Actually I don't care how my dogs send beings on
> to the next world as long as they do - all in a days work.
> 
> Klaus
> 

Actually, I normally see this behavior in cats, not dogs.

Anyway, Klaus, your description of animals seems to fit my observation
of small children -- there are plenty of stories of kids doing horrific
things because they are innocent in the sense of the pre-apple days:
they have no knowledge of right and wrong.

Anyway, I have definitely had dogs who had a sense of torture -- lock
them outside for a few hours and they would whine, and whine, and whine
about being tortured by not being allowed inside!  (This matches up with
kids nicely, too, I think -- kids are generally keenly aware of anything
that negatively affects them, while being completely unaware of how
their behavior affects others.)

-- 
monique


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..D-C, was: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 18:09:01 +0800, 
"David Palmer." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 23:14:16 -0700
> Paul E Condon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 05:40:32AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 02:25:18PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 at 21:13 GMT, csj penned:
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> As usual, science fiction was here before.  C.F., _The Songs
> > > > >of> Distant Earth_ by Arthur C. Clarke.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You do remember that the first generation colonists in the
> > > > > novel were"manufactured" from gene samples and raised by
> > > > > machines that taught them a sanitized version of human history
> > > > > and culture? They were genetically and culturally engineered
> > > > > to be altruistic.  So maybe our best hope lies in breeding out
> > > > > our baser instincts.
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Somehow, I doubt that "baser insticts" can be bred out,
> > > > especially by just not teaching about them.
> > > > 
> > > > That whole "those who do not know history are doomed to repeat
> > > > it" line...
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > given the consistency with which the old mistakes are repreated, i
> > > seriously wonder if that adage holds true.
> > > 
> > 
> > I have another thought. This, and my last post, and lots of other
> > stuff of this nature, should really not be here. I'm subscribing to
> > debian-curiosa. I think everyone who want to talk about 'the meaning
> > of life', or other OT things should either move there, or post a
> > message there as to where they are moving. Its fun, but lets not do
> > it here.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Paul E Condon   
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> Seconded.
> See you there.
> Regards,

..yes?  ;-)  I have seen just 4 posts here in  d-c since 
Karsten plonked me.   ;-)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.


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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[Tom]

On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 06:17:12AM -0500, Klaus Imgrund wrote:
> On Sunday 07 December 2003 05:23 am, Tom wrote:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever seen a dog play with a mouse by torturing it?
> 
> Animals don't have a concept of torture.

I don't much care what you want to call it -- point is they do it.
Killer whales will also play with and torture seals before they eat 
them.

But the point wasn't to say that Animals == Man or "gee ain't animals 
gruesome", the point was to say that rocks = 0.0; man = 1.0; and animals 
are somewhere in the middle.  It's an attenuated form of what we do.


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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[Klaus Imgrund]

On Sunday 07 December 2003 05:23 am, Tom wrote:


> Have you ever seen a dog play with a mouse by torturing it?

Animals don't have a concept of torture.
Most pets rarely kill anything and are almost as clueless how to go about it 
as I am with fixing my box.
They are merely what appears to be cruel at times to the human bystander.
Actually I don't care how my dogs send beings on to the next world as long as 
they do - all in a days work.

Klaus


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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[Tom]

On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 06:16:15PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote:
> > 
> Heidegger, not Kant is the one with the answer here.
> 'Dasein', - Man, the being for whom being is a question.
> With all due respect to cats and dogs.

Have you ever seen the "Intelligence" episode of "Trials of Life" ?
Have you ever seen a dog play with a mouse by torturing it?

I saw this dog snag a mouse.  At first it would run away, so he'd grab 
it and shake it.  After a while its back was broken, and couldn't run 
much.  So when it would try a bit it would knock it with its paw to make 
it look like it was trying to run, at which point it would pick it up 
and shake it some more.  He gave up when it was dead.

How about the "Hunting and Killing" episode of trials of life?

And on a more spirtual note: have you ever heard the trees talking to 
you?  They wonder why we run around so much...

I think "being a soul" is a contiuum.  I certainly slide up and down it 
all the time -- sometimes I'm an angel, sometimes I'm dog, sometimes I'm 
green slime.  I think what separates us from animals is our "range" :: 
animals inhabit a narrower spectrum of the states of consciousness which 
are common to ours.


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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[David Palmer.]

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 00:32:46 -0700
"Monique Y. Herman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 at 05:57 GMT, Paul E Condon penned:
> > 
> > As the most recent user of this phrase on this list, let me join
> > this discussion:
> > 
> > The sense in which I meant 'know history' was to know what has
> > happened in prior times when a certain course of action or a certain
> > line of reasoning was used. For humans, instincts are stuff like the
> > ability to acquire and use language, the ability to engage in
> > thought about what others are thinking, etc. Clarke's postulates
> > seeem to me foolish, but amusing. We don't have adequate definitions
> > of what we mean by altruism in humans. Our lives are rather complex,
> > and what might seem altruistic at first sight can be, on more deep
> > examination,'enlightened self-interest', and visa-versa. 
> > 
> 
> Who are you, Kant? =P
> 
> I haven't actually read the book, so I can't really chime in on what
> Clarke did or didn't accomplish or intend to accomplish.  
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > 
> > For me, the consistency with which mistakes are repeated, is a proof
> > of the ignorance of history on the part of the players, not a
> > disproof of the addage. 
> 
> I tend to agree here, except that it's not that simple, because the
> factors are never *exactly* the same, and some people are better than
> others at discerning similar patterns.  In fact, I'd tend to believe
> that most folks are pretty bad at it.  Then again, that's probably
> just self-aggrandizing fluff, since I consider myself to be pretty
> good at it.
> 
> ... Anyway, point is, it's not as simple as recognizing identical
> situations.  It's seeing similar situations, recognizing the pattern,
> and being able to extrapolate from there.
> 
> > It is hard to determine just exactly what is the special thing that
> > makes homo sapiens different from other great apes. Some say there
> > is no essential difference, others say that we were create different
> > by God. I think we have a special ability to see ourselves from
> > 'outside', and to think about how others see us. But others claim
> > that this is an illusion. But if one chooses to live within the
> > illusion, knowing history is surely better than not knowing it.  And
> > if one pretends to reject the illusion, ... whatever ... 
> 
> Heh.
> 
> Every time scientists have held forth some notion that "humans are
> unique because," later scientists have found a variety of "animals"
> that do the same thing.  I'm not saying that there might not be some
> unique point, but the fact is, without being able to sit down to a
> pint of guinness with representatives of other species, it's kind of
> hard to really know what, if anything, is going on in their heads.
> 
> Just today, I was reading Discover Magazine, and this scientist was
> stating as "fact" that animals simply don't feel pain the way humans
> do. Maybe that's what he has to tell himself to get through the day,
> but last I heard, that was far from accepted Truth, and it's certainly
> a concept that I have trouble swallowing, having seen my cats and dogs
> seemingly in pain, seemingly panicked, seemingly joyful, seemingly
> playful, seemingly sad ... maybe there are other explanations, but
> they ring hollow to my ears.
> 
Heidegger, not Kant is the one with the answer here.
'Dasein', - Man, the being for whom being is a question.
With all due respect to cats and dogs.
Regards,

David.


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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[David Palmer.]

On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 23:14:16 -0700
Paul E Condon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 05:40:32AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 02:25:18PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote:
> > > On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 at 21:13 GMT, csj penned:
> > > >> 
> > > >> As usual, science fiction was here before.  C.F., _The Songs of
> > > >> Distant Earth_ by Arthur C. Clarke.
> > > > 
> > > > You do remember that the first generation colonists in the novel
> > > > were"manufactured" from gene samples and raised by machines that
> > > > taught them a sanitized version of human history and culture? 
> > > > They were genetically and culturally engineered to be
> > > > altruistic.  So maybe our best hope lies in breeding out our
> > > > baser instincts.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Somehow, I doubt that "baser insticts" can be bred out, especially
> > > by just not teaching about them.
> > > 
> > > That whole "those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it"
> > > line...
> > > 
> > >
> > given the consistency with which the old mistakes are repreated, i
> > seriously wonder if that adage holds true.
> > 
> 
> I have another thought. This, and my last post, and lots of other
> stuff of this nature, should really not be here. I'm subscribing to
> debian-curiosa. I think everyone who want to talk about 'the meaning
> of life', or other OT things should either move there, or post a
> message there as to where they are moving. Its fun, but lets not do
> it here.
> 
> -- 
> Paul E Condon   
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
Seconded.
See you there.
Regards,

David.


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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[Monique Y. Herman]

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 at 05:57 GMT, Paul E Condon penned:
> 
> As the most recent user of this phrase on this list, let me join this
> discussion:
> 
> The sense in which I meant 'know history' was to know what has
> happened in prior times when a certain course of action or a certain
> line of reasoning was used. For humans, instincts are stuff like the
> ability to acquire and use language, the ability to engage in thought
> about what others are thinking, etc. Clarke's postulates seeem to me
> foolish, but amusing. We don't have adequate definitions of what we
> mean by altruism in humans. Our lives are rather complex, and what
> might seem altruistic at first sight can be, on more deep examination,
> 'enlightened self-interest', and visa-versa. 
> 

Who are you, Kant? =P

I haven't actually read the book, so I can't really chime in on what
Clarke did or didn't accomplish or intend to accomplish.  

[snip]

> 
> For me, the consistency with which mistakes are repeated, is a proof
> of the ignorance of history on the part of the players, not a disproof
> of the addage. 

I tend to agree here, except that it's not that simple, because the
factors are never *exactly* the same, and some people are better than
others at discerning similar patterns.  In fact, I'd tend to believe
that most folks are pretty bad at it.  Then again, that's probably just
self-aggrandizing fluff, since I consider myself to be pretty good at
it.

... Anyway, point is, it's not as simple as recognizing identical
situations.  It's seeing similar situations, recognizing the pattern,
and being able to extrapolate from there.

> It is hard to determine just exactly what is the special thing that
> makes homo sapiens different from other great apes. Some say there is
> no essential difference, others say that we were create different by
> God. I think we have a special ability to see ourselves from
> 'outside', and to think about how others see us. But others claim that
> this is an illusion. But if one chooses to live within the illusion,
> knowing history is surely better than not knowing it.  And if one
> pretends to reject the illusion, ... whatever ... 

Heh.

Every time scientists have held forth some notion that "humans are
unique because," later scientists have found a variety of "animals" that
do the same thing.  I'm not saying that there might not be some unique
point, but the fact is, without being able to sit down to a pint of
guinness with representatives of other species, it's kind of hard to
really know what, if anything, is going on in their heads.

Just today, I was reading Discover Magazine, and this scientist was
stating as "fact" that animals simply don't feel pain the way humans do.
Maybe that's what he has to tell himself to get through the day, but
last I heard, that was far from accepted Truth, and it's certainly a
concept that I have trouble swallowing, having seen my cats and dogs
seemingly in pain, seemingly panicked, seemingly joyful, seemingly
playful, seemingly sad ... maybe there are other explanations, but they
ring hollow to my ears.


-- 
monique


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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[Paul E Condon]

On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 05:40:32AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 02:25:18PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote:
> > On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 at 21:13 GMT, csj penned:
> > >> 
> > >> As usual, science fiction was here before.  C.F., _The Songs of
> > >> Distant Earth_ by Arthur C. Clarke.
> > > 
> > > You do remember that the first generation colonists in the novel were
> > > "manufactured" from gene samples and raised by machines that taught
> > > them a sanitized version of human history and culture?  They were
> > > genetically and culturally engineered to be altruistic.  So maybe our
> > > best hope lies in breeding out our baser instincts.
> > > 
> > 
> > Somehow, I doubt that "baser insticts" can be bred out, especially by
> > just not teaching about them.
> > 
> > That whole "those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it" line
> > ...
> > 
> >
> given the consistency with which the old mistakes are repreated, i
> seriously wonder if that adage holds true.
> 

I have another thought. This, and my last post, and lots of other
stuff of this nature, should really not be here. I'm subscribing to
debian-curiosa. I think everyone who want to talk about 'the meaning
of life', or other OT things should either move there, or post a
message there as to where they are moving. Its fun, but lets not do
it here.

-- 
Paul E Condon   
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[Paul E Condon]

On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 05:40:32AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 02:25:18PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote:
> > On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 at 21:13 GMT, csj penned:
> > >> 
> > >> As usual, science fiction was here before.  C.F., _The Songs of
> > >> Distant Earth_ by Arthur C. Clarke.
> > > 
> > > You do remember that the first generation colonists in the novel were
> > > "manufactured" from gene samples and raised by machines that taught
> > > them a sanitized version of human history and culture?  They were
> > > genetically and culturally engineered to be altruistic.  So maybe our
> > > best hope lies in breeding out our baser instincts.
> > > 
> > 
> > Somehow, I doubt that "baser insticts" can be bred out, especially by
> > just not teaching about them.
> > 
> > That whole "those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it" line

As the most recent user of this phrase on this list, let me join this 
discussion:

The sense in which I meant 'know history' was to know what has happened 
in prior times when a certain course of action or a certain line of reasoning
was used. For humans, instincts are stuff like the ability to acquire and 
use language, the ability to engage in thought about what others are thinking,
etc. Clarke's postulates seeem to me foolish, but amusing. We don't have
adequate definitions of what we mean by altruism in humans. Our lives are 
rather complex, and what might seem altruistic at first sight can be, on 
more deep examination, 'enlightened self-interest', and visa-versa. 

Also, cultural engineering is not, and very likely will never be. Except,
perhaps if you re-define it to mean what is now called 'spin'. But spin
is a very shallow maneuver in politics, hardly something that deserves 
respect. 

> > ...
> > 
> >
> given the consistency with which the old mistakes are repreated, i
> seriously wonder if that adage holds true.
> 

For me, the consistency with which mistakes are repeated, is a proof 
of the ignorance of history on the part of the players, not a 
disproof of the addage. 

It is hard to determine just exactly what is the special thing that
makes homo sapiens different from other great apes. Some say there
is no essential difference, others say that we were create different
by God. I think we have a special ability to see ourselves from 
'outside', and to think about how others see us. But others claim
that this is an illusion. But if one chooses to live within the 
illusion, knowing history is surely better than not knowing it.
And if one pretends to reject the illusion, ... whatever ... 

-- 
Paul E Condon   
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[ben_foley]

On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 02:25:18PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 at 21:13 GMT, csj penned:
> >> 
> >> As usual, science fiction was here before.  C.F., _The Songs of
> >> Distant Earth_ by Arthur C. Clarke.
> > 
> > You do remember that the first generation colonists in the novel were
> > "manufactured" from gene samples and raised by machines that taught
> > them a sanitized version of human history and culture?  They were
> > genetically and culturally engineered to be altruistic.  So maybe our
> > best hope lies in breeding out our baser instincts.
> > 
> 
> Somehow, I doubt that "baser insticts" can be bred out, especially by
> just not teaching about them.
> 
> That whole "those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it" line
> ...
> 
>
given the consistency with which the old mistakes are repreated, i
seriously wonder if that adage holds true.

ben


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 19:13:33 +0800, 
"David Palmer." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I'm not mad at anyone.
> If there is a form of arrogance that displays a lack of experience,
> it's analysis at a distance.
> Put all politicians on a wage of $500.00/week, and make it a capital
> offense to take a political bribe, and you would get the ones that
> want to do the job for the right reasons.

..does not work, just watch the Scandinavian parliaments.

..there was just one major figure, and he was shot in 1986 to make way
for EU membership

..I would like the oposite: Make it profitable to "hire some top shot
CEO type to run your multinational business, while you do 3 terms in
Office to pay for your next big business.  You don't have any? Good,
then go buy a good running big business after your first term, or set up
a new one.".

..face it, good leaders costs _big_ money.  Bad ones, even more.
So they do _not_ want the competition.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.



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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[Monique Y. Herman]

On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 at 21:13 GMT, csj penned:
>> 
>> As usual, science fiction was here before.  C.F., _The Songs of
>> Distant Earth_ by Arthur C. Clarke.
> 
> You do remember that the first generation colonists in the novel were
> "manufactured" from gene samples and raised by machines that taught
> them a sanitized version of human history and culture?  They were
> genetically and culturally engineered to be altruistic.  So maybe our
> best hope lies in breeding out our baser instincts.
> 

Somehow, I doubt that "baser insticts" can be bred out, especially by
just not teaching about them.

That whole "those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it" line
...

-- 
monique


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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[csj]

On 6. December 2003 at 11:07AM -0800,
Jason Newquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > > Friends of mine postulated the idea of having "politician
> > > duty" in much the same was as we have jury duty ... you get
> > > a letter one day telling you it's your turn to serve.
> > > Pretty sure this was done in at least one ancient govt
> > > ... think it was Athens.
> > >
> > > "Random people" have a much better chance of aligning with
> > > my interests than politicians.  The fact is, anyone who's
> > > willing to put themselves and their family through the
> > > torture that is a politician's life by definition does not
> > > share my values.
> >
> > I hear that British COlumbia is planning to use a random
> > scheme to select members of the commission that is going to
> > propose a mechanism for proportional representation or other
> > more equitable election system.  The result to be ratified in
> > a referendum.
> 
> As usual, science fiction was here before.  C.F., _The Songs of
> Distant Earth_ by Arthur C. Clarke.

You do remember that the first generation colonists in the novel
were "manufactured" from gene samples and raised by machines that
taught them a sanitized version of human history and culture?
They were genetically and culturally engineered to be altruistic.
So maybe our best hope lies in breeding out our baser instincts.


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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[Jason Newquist]

On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> > Friends of mine postulated the idea of having "politician duty" in much
> > the same was as we have jury duty ... you get a letter one day telling
> > you it's your turn to serve.  Pretty sure this was done in at least one
> > ancient govt ... think it was Athens.
> >
> > "Random people" have a much better chance of aligning with my interests
> > than politicians.  The fact is, anyone who's willing to put themselves
> > and their family through the torture that is a politician's life by
> > definition does not share my values.
>
> I hear that British COlumbia is planning to use a random scheme to select
> members of the commission that is going to propose a mechanism for
> proportional representation or other more equitable election
> system.  The result to be ratified in a referendum.

As usual, science fiction was here before.  C.F., _The Songs of
Distant Earth_ by Arthur C. Clarke.

Jason Newquist
San Francisco Bay Area


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Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))

[hendrik]

On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 01:29:31PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 at 17:56 GMT, Paul Johnson penned:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 07:13:33PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote:
> >> Put all politicians on a wage of $500.00/week, and make it a capital
> >> offense to take a political bribe, and you would get the ones that
> >> want to do the job for the right reasons.
> > 
> > Would also encourage just random people to get a job as a politician
> > because it would be a reasonable income.
> > 
> 
> Friends of mine postulated the idea of having "politician duty" in much
> the same was as we have jury duty ... you get a letter one day telling
> you it's your turn to serve.  Pretty sure this was done in at least one
> ancient govt ... think it was Athens.
> 
> "Random people" have a much better chance of aligning with my interests
> than politicians.  The fact is, anyone who's willing to put themselves
> and their family through the torture that is a politician's life by
> definition does not share my values.

I hear that British COlumbia is planning to use a random scheme to select
members of the commission that is going to propose a mechanism for proportional 
representation or other more equitable election system.  The result to be
ratified in a referendum.

-- hendrik

> 
> -- 
> monique
> 
> 
> -- 
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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 07:30:00AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 04:49:33PM -0700, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> > scripsit Tom:
> >  
> > (dating from the 17th century; their descendents are today's Lib-Dems)
> > or with a rather na?ve progressive view of history as the story of
> > continual progress.  The latter is the way the term tends to be used
> > generically by historians.  Either way, the term evokes a rather
> > old-fashioned classical liberalism.
> 
> 
> before you write the thesis, the english and american whigs deserve a
> little more attention on your part. they were/are not at all the same.

Take it up with the Encycolpedia.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[David Palmer.]

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:00:02 -0800
Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 08:19:25PM -0800, Tom wrote:
> > The unfortunate thing about people like you is you go from this bizarre 
> > self-loathing to crass commercialism (usually around 27).
> 
> You know, murphy really ought to be making sure the addresses used to
> post to this list are valid.

Yes.
And the ones behind those addresses also.

Regards,

David.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[ben_foley]

On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 04:49:33PM -0700, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> scripsit Tom:
>  
> (dating from the 17th century; their descendents are today's Lib-Dems)
> or with a rather na?ve progressive view of history as the story of
> continual progress.  The latter is the way the term tends to be used
> generically by historians.  Either way, the term evokes a rather
> old-fashioned classical liberalism.


before you write the thesis, the english and american whigs deserve a
little more attention on your part. they were/are not at all the same.

ben


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[ben_foley]

On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 10:42:33AM -0600, Hoyt Bailey wrote:
> 
> I believe Mr sanders is a member of the socialist party.
> 
>
check out bernie.house.gov

while he lends himself to socialist issues, bernie is an independent.

ben


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 09:00:02PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 08:19:25PM -0800, Tom wrote:
> > The unfortunate thing about people like you is you go from this bizarre 
> > self-loathing to crass commercialism (usually around 27).
> 
> You know, murphy really ought to be making sure the addresses used to
> post to this list are valid.

You're drunk now aren't you?

Did you even try sending a message to this "from" line?

Or is that just another thing you think you know?


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 08:19:25PM -0800, Tom wrote:
> The unfortunate thing about people like you is you go from this bizarre 
> self-loathing to crass commercialism (usually around 27).

You know, murphy really ought to be making sure the addresses used to
post to this list are valid.

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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 07:37:05PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 07:27:02PM -0800, Tom wrote:
> > Anyway, thanks for making me glad I'm American paul!
> 
> Learned it in school, not off the net.  Heard it within the last month
> on The History Channel as well, though the name of the program it was
> on escapes me at the moment.  Collective, rampant ignorance of history
> and failing to learn from it's mistakes is one American tradition that
> makes me say I have the grave misfortune of being American.

The unfortunate thing about people like you is you go from this bizarre 
self-loathing to crass commercialism (usually around 27).


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 07:26:52PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 06:54:48PM -0800, Tom wrote:
> > This is so profoundly offensive I cannot believe you offensive.
> > What you are saying is so self-evidently wrong it's laughable.
> 
> Go take US History sometime.

Go read about the effect the US revolution had on ending monarchies in 
Europe and how all the African colonies emulated us.

Can you point to a single link backing up what you say?

(Not a blog.  A real history text that says the Founding Fathers were 
drunks and were absolutely stupid.)



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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 07:27:02PM -0800, Tom wrote:
> Anyway, thanks for making me glad I'm American paul!

Learned it in school, not off the net.  Heard it within the last month
on The History Channel as well, though the name of the program it was
on escapes me at the moment.  Collective, rampant ignorance of history
and failing to learn from it's mistakes is one American tradition that
makes me say I have the grave misfortune of being American.

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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 05:47:46PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 06:17:17AM -0800, Tom wrote:
> > Don't second-guess them; they was smart!
> 
> They weren't smart, they were drunk; there's a difference.  We don't
> even trust drunks to drive these days.  They fall well short of the
> pedestal people put them on.
> 
> 1) They thought the electoral college was a good idea.  This has

The idea of the electoral college is against the "Tyranny of the 
Majority."  We are not a democracy.

George Washington could have been King and willingly gave up power.

I tried to google for "founding fathers drunks" to see if there was any 
basis in what you are saying, but have you noticed in the last few days 
all of the first 1000 hits Google returns are 'blogs?

It's absolutely useless.

Anyway, thanks for making me glad I'm American paul!


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 06:54:48PM -0800, Tom wrote:
> This is so profoundly offensive I cannot believe you offensive.
> What you are saying is so self-evidently wrong it's laughable.

Go take US History sometime.

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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 05:47:46PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 06:17:17AM -0800, Tom wrote:
> > Don't second-guess them; they was smart!
> 
> They weren't smart, they were drunk; there's a difference.  We don't
> even trust drunks to drive these days.  They fall well short of the
> pedestal people put them on.

This is so profoundly offensive I cannot believe you offensive.
What you are saying is so self-evidently wrong it's laughable.

Yes, Paul, they were so stupid they changed the history of the planet.

This stupid rant is *so* off the mark I can't even get mad about it, 
because it bears no relation to reality whatsoever.

> 
> 1) They thought the electoral college was a good idea.  This has
>burned us over the years by making it easier to rig presidential
>elections and gives states with large populations of stupid people
>(ie California[1]) disproportionately large say.
> 
> 2) The vast majority of the time they spent writing the "framework"
>for the US was spent in a pub across the street from Independence
>Hall in a drunken haze.
> 
> 
> 
> [1] Though I'm sure if they thought a state inhabited almost entirely
> by retards could one day exist, much less become very populated, they
> would probably have realized how retarded the idea was even through
> their drunken stupor.
> 
> -- 
>  .''`. Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> : :'  :
> `. `'` proud Debian admin and user
>   `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
> 
> 
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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 02:11:30AM -0700, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> ...and hence not a member of any `third' party -- or am I missing
> something?

Confusingly enough, there's an Independent Party here.  So more people
claim to be Independents then actually are.  If you have no party
affiliation, you register as "Non-affiliated Voter."

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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 01:39:06AM -0800, Tom wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 10:15:11PM -0700, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> 
> > I was aware of the indepentents; `nonzero' referred to members of
> > organized `third' parties, which could run party lists under a
> > Scottish-style system.  AFAIK there are no party members in the Congress
> > that are not Democrats or Republicans.
> 
> You conveniently ignored the quote by the Indian fellow who complained 
> about how there are too many political parties.

And conveniently ignores that New Hampshire has a Socialist US House
member, IIRC (it's either NH or VT, and I could be wrong about which
house of congress, and more than a day's drive from Oregon, it's not
like it matters here anyway).

> Now it was "King Andrew" Jackson who was the alleged tyrant.

If he was so bad, how come he's featured in technicolor on $20?

> But the Whigs were the Republicans/Democrats 

No, that would be the Democratic Republicans.  The Whigs were the
major party opposing DR.  The Democratic Republicans split sometime
after.

> before they started using the Race-issue in an obnoxious way to do
> shitty things to people, like the Democrats do now.

Last I checked, most people running around in bedsheets and lighting
wooden crosses on the lawns of black people claim to be Republicans.
The whole not caring about your fellow man seems to mesh nicely
between those two groups.

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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 06:17:17AM -0800, Tom wrote:
> Don't second-guess them; they was smart!

They weren't smart, they were drunk; there's a difference.  We don't
even trust drunks to drive these days.  They fall well short of the
pedestal people put them on.

1) They thought the electoral college was a good idea.  This has
   burned us over the years by making it easier to rig presidential
   elections and gives states with large populations of stupid people
   (ie California[1]) disproportionately large say.

2) The vast majority of the time they spent writing the "framework"
   for the US was spent in a pub across the street from Independence
   Hall in a drunken haze.



[1] Though I'm sure if they thought a state inhabited almost entirely
by retards could one day exist, much less become very populated, they
would probably have realized how retarded the idea was even through
their drunken stupor.

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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 08:01:00AM -0600, Kent West wrote:
> and at this time pick from the Big Two to avoid "throwing away" your
> vote.

I was with you up until you said this.  How does this change anything?
The general election is the one that counts.  The only time you throw
away your vote is if you vote for what you believe to be a lesser
candidate and try to justify it by saying you're throwing your vote
away otherwise.  That is exactly the kind of thinking that perpetuates
America's binary political system.

> You've still done what you've set out to do; get your 3rd-party some
> name recognition by putting them on the ballot.

Two serious problems with that:

1) "Third parties" already get on the general ballot.  Claiming
   victory when they get to this point instead of backing them up
   through the general elections is counterproductive.

2) Not all parties hold primaries.  I know the Socialist Party (at
   least locally) doesn't hold primaries unless there's more than one
   candidate running for the same office.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Thanasis Kinias]

scripsit Tom:
 
> You conveniently ignored the quote by the Indian fellow who complained
> about how there are too many political parties.

I guess it didn't occur to me you were offering it as a serious
argument. I confess I didn't pay too much attention to it, as I misread
it to be coming from a USian, and thought it was offered as an example
of absurdity.

> In my personal opinion, the culture which is most similar to America
> is India, although we took different routes to get there: they've been
> through Democracy, Theocracy, Tyranny, Oligarchy, Nothingorcracy, and
> Sillyocracy, and so they really don't take much of anything too
> seriously nowadays.  Americans don't take anything too seriously
> either.

This is not a comparison I would make, but it is interesting to
contemplate. 

> The "anarcho-syndicalist" comment was hopefully a self-conscious ironic 
> reference to Michael Palin in The Holy Grail, I hope, and not serious.

No -- I actually had in mind the Catalonian workers' militias in the
Spanish Civil war (the ones who considered the Comintern-allied
Communists to be right-wing).

It was not really serious, though; I appreciate some aspects of their
political thought, but I don't think it really workable.  I tend to
describe myself as an anarcho-syndicalist only when talking to Americans
who think that Howard Dean is a radical leftist, only to illustrate just
how centrist the `left' of American politics really is.

> http://gi.grolier.com/presidents/ea/side/whig.html:
> "The term Whig came into common use in 1834, and persisted until the 
> disintegration of the party after the presidential ELECTION of 1856. 
[...]

I tend to associate `Whig' either with the liberal opposition in Britain
(dating from the 17th century; their descendents are today's Lib-Dems)
or with a rather naïve progressive view of history as the story of
continual progress.  The latter is the way the term tends to be used
generically by historians.  Either way, the term evokes a rather
old-fashioned classical liberalism. 

-- 
Pax vobiscum; pax cum omnibus.

Thanasis Kinias
tkinias at asu.edu
Doctoral Student, Department of History
Arizona State University
Tempe, Arizona, U.S.A.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Hoyt Bailey]

- Original Message - 
From: "Thanasis Kinias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 03:11
Subject: Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian
Project Emergency Communications)


> scripsit [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
> > On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 10:15:11PM -0700, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> [snip]
> > > I was aware of the indepentents; `nonzero' referred to members of
> > > organized `third' parties, which could run party lists under a
> > > Scottish-style system.  AFAIK there are no party members in the
> > > Congress that are not Democrats or Republicans.
> > >
> > bernie sanders, rep from vermont, has always been an independent.
>
> ...and hence not a member of any `third' party -- or am I missing
> something?
>
I believe Mr sanders is a member of the socialist party.
Hoyt



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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 08:01:00AM -0600, Kent West wrote:
> But I kindda like the idea that others have put forward; make political 
> office holding (for many/most? posititions) a responsibility of normal 
> citizens, via random choice, like jury duty.

Sure, because with random office holders absolutely *no one* would make 
sure their crooked partners were the ones that got picked.

Our founders were very particular about making sure that Congress didn't 
get paid much because they did not want the type of person was just 
there to collect a check, which was a problem in Britain's parliament.

Don't second-guess them; they was smart!


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Kent West]

Paul Johnson wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 05:11:58PM -0600, Kent West wrote:
 

Vote for your third-party during the primary
   

You can't.  Primary ballots only list candidates from your own party.

 

Yes. So register as a member of that 3rd party; vote in that 3rd party's 
primary for your 3rd-party candidate of choice, then when the General 
Election rolls around, you can "switch" candidates and vote for any 
candidate on the ballot, and at this time pick from the Big Two to avoid 
"throwing away" your vote. You've still done what you've set out to do; 
get your 3rd-party some name recognition by putting them on the ballot.

But I kindda like the idea that others have put forward; make political 
office holding (for many/most? posititions) a responsibility of normal 
citizens, via random choice, like jury duty. Takes out the professionals 
and puts "real people" into office. Of course, the pay would have to be 
enough for the candidate to live on for the term of duty AND allow the 
candidate to put his normal life on pause (hire a manager for his 
business while he's away, hire a replacement for his job with guarantee 
of getting the job back after his term, etc).

Lots of issues, and I reckon I'm ready to get back on-topic, so I'm 
outta here.

--
Kent


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 10:15:11PM -0700, Thanasis Kinias wrote:

> I was aware of the indepentents; `nonzero' referred to members of
> organized `third' parties, which could run party lists under a
> Scottish-style system.  AFAIK there are no party members in the Congress
> that are not Democrats or Republicans.

You conveniently ignored the quote by the Indian fellow who complained 
about how there are too many political parties.

In my personal opinion, the culture which is most similar to America is 
India, although we took different routes to get there: they've been 
through Democracy, Theocracy, Tyranny, Oligarchy, Nothingorcracy, and 
Sillyocracy, and so they really don't take much of anything too 
seriously nowadays.  Americans don't take anything too seriously either.

The "anarcho-syndicalist" comment was hopefully a self-conscious ironic 
reference to Michael Palin in The Holy Grail, I hope, and not serious.

http://gi.grolier.com/presidents/ea/side/whig.html:
"The term Whig came into common use in 1834, and persisted until the 
disintegration of the party after the presidential ELECTION of 1856. The 
anti-Jackson groups drew upon the political history of two revolutions, 
the American and 17th century English, for their name. In both cases the 
opposition to the king had called themselves Whigs. Now it was "King 
Andrew" Jackson who was the alleged tyrant.
The Whigs' direct political antecedents were the National Republicans, 
the administration party during John Quincy ADAMS' presidency 
(1825-1829)."

Southerners originally hated Republicans because they were the 
Carpetbaggers who came down and acted like slimey weasel businessmen 
during Reconstructed.  (Sometimes I pull for Osama because I know what 
it's like to lose a war to Americans.  It galls.)  Jesse Helms was 
originally a Democrat.

Don't get me wrong: I absolutely loate and am ashamed of my fellow 
southerners who are consciously are subconsciously racist.  (This means 
I loathe myself sometimes -- it rubs off).  But the Whigs were the 
Republicans/Democrats before they started using the Race-issue in an 
obnoxious way to do shitty things to people, like the Democrats do now.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Thanasis Kinias]

scripsit [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
> On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 10:15:11PM -0700, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
[snip]
> > I was aware of the indepentents; `nonzero' referred to members of
> > organized `third' parties, which could run party lists under a
> > Scottish-style system.  AFAIK there are no party members in the
> > Congress that are not Democrats or Republicans.
> >
> bernie sanders, rep from vermont, has always been an independent.

...and hence not a member of any `third' party -- or am I missing
something?

-- 
Pax vobiscum; pax cum omnibus.

Thanasis Kinias
tkinias at asu.edu
Doctoral Student, Department of History
Arizona State University
Tempe, Arizona, U.S.A.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[ben_foley]

On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 10:15:11PM -0700, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> scripsit Tom:
> > On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 02:32:15PM -0700, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> > 
> > > a system (I did the math a while ago) we'd have a small but nonzero
> > > number of (at least) Greens and Libertarians in the House, even with
> > 
> > There is 1 independent Senator and 1 independent Congressman (what's the 
> > generic term for member of House?  Representative?), so it's already 
> > "nonzero".
> 
> The senator was elected as a Republican, though, and bolted, IIRC. 
> 
> I was aware of the indepentents; `nonzero' referred to members of
> organized `third' parties, which could run party lists under a
> Scottish-style system.  AFAIK there are no party members in the Congress
> that are not Democrats or Republicans.
>
bernie sanders, rep from vermont, has always been an
independent.

ben


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 05:11:58PM -0600, Kent West wrote:
> Vote for your third-party during the primary

You can't.  Primary ballots only list candidates from your own party.

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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Thanasis Kinias]

scripsit Tom:
> On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 02:32:15PM -0700, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> 
> > a system (I did the math a while ago) we'd have a small but nonzero
> > number of (at least) Greens and Libertarians in the House, even with
> 
> There is 1 independent Senator and 1 independent Congressman (what's the 
> generic term for member of House?  Representative?), so it's already 
> "nonzero".

The senator was elected as a Republican, though, and bolted, IIRC. 

I was aware of the indepentents; `nonzero' referred to members of
organized `third' parties, which could run party lists under a
Scottish-style system.  AFAIK there are no party members in the Congress
that are not Democrats or Republicans.

> I want to be a Whig.

Anarcho-syndicalist, myself... 

Well, maybe not really, but it sounds cooler than whig.

¡No pasarán!

We should really take this off-list, BTW...

-- 
Pax vobiscum; pax cum omnibus.

Thanasis Kinias
tkinias at asu.edu
Doctoral Student, Department of History
Arizona State University
Tempe, Arizona, U.S.A.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Thanasis Kinias]

scripsit Monique Y. Herman:
 
> Friends of mine postulated the idea of having "politician duty" in
> much the same was as we have jury duty ... you get a letter one day
> telling you it's your turn to serve.  Pretty sure this was done in at
> least one ancient govt ... think it was Athens.

Funny that you came up with that; my recent political utopianizing (if I
may coin a word) involved much the opposite -- a dedicated active
citizenry which would be required to give up private property.  The
problem this was intended to address is the corrupting influence a
politician's particular, private interests exert on his or her attention
to the greater interests of the community.  The goal was to eliminate
the distinction, on the part of the decision makers, between their
particular interest and the general good.  The result (which is, of
course, problematic for other reasons) is something like a
philosopher-aristocracy.

-- 
Pax vobiscum; pax cum omnibus.

Thanasis Kinias
tkinias at asu.edu
Doctoral Student, Department of History
Arizona State University
Tempe, Arizona, U.S.A.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Monique Y. Herman]

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 at 01:06 GMT, Jason A Whittle penned:
> I'm sorry that my first post to debian-user is so off-topic, and that
> I don't have a key yet. I hope to rectify the latter ASAP. 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 01:34:11PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote:
>> In theory, we have a multi-party system.  In practice, voting for a
>> "third-party" candidate is a wasted vote, because everyone "knows"
>> that every vote cast outside of the Big Two is wasted, and so no one
>> bothers.
>> 
>> If we had a system in which we could vote more than once, for example
>> by specifying a first, second, and third choice, maybe we would see
>> some shake-up.
> 
> The concept I believe you're formulating is commonly called Instant
> Runoff Voting. It's an exciting voting reform developed in the 1870s
> that has been gaining some small momentum of late. 
> 

Ah, yeah, that's what it's called!

There are a lot of alternate voting schemes out there.  Seems there's a
decent chance that some of them might be better than what we have.

-- 
monique


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Jason A Whittle]

I'm sorry that my first post to debian-user is so off-topic, and that I 
don't have a key yet. I hope to rectify the latter ASAP. 

On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 01:34:11PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote:
> In theory, we have a multi-party system.  In practice, voting for a
> "third-party" candidate is a wasted vote, because everyone "knows" that
> every vote cast outside of the Big Two is wasted, and so no one bothers.
> 
> If we had a system in which we could vote more than once, for example by
> specifying a first, second, and third choice, maybe we would see some
> shake-up.

The concept I believe you're formulating is commonly called Instant 
Runoff Voting. It's an exciting voting reform developed in the 1870s 
that has been gaining some small momentum of late. 

Cheers, 
Jason Whittle


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Kent West]

Monique Y. Herman wrote:
On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 at 12:38 GMT, Hoyt Bailey penned:

- Original Message - From: "Monique Y. Herman"
In theory, we have a multi-party system.  In practice, voting for a
"third-party" candidate is a wasted vote, because everyone "knows" that
every vote cast outside of the Big Two is wasted, and so no one bothers.
If we had a system in which we could vote more than once, for example by
specifying a first, second, and third choice, maybe we would see some
shake-up.


Vote for your third-party during the primary, to get the third party 
some name-recognition and perhaps on the general ballot, and then vote 
for the lesser-of-two-evils in the General Election.

--
Kent
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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 02:32:15PM -0700, Thanasis Kinias wrote:

> a system (I did the math a while ago) we'd have a small but nonzero
> number of (at least) Greens and Libertarians in the House, even with

There is 1 independent Senator and 1 independent Congressman (what's the 
generic term for member of House?  Representative?), so it's already 
"nonzero".

I tried to google for "why do we have poltical parties" to find 
something good the Founders said but came across this great post:

Why do we have so many political parties?

I suggest that a Constitutianal change is necessary to limit the number.

from 
http://discussions.samachar.com/HyperNews/get/forums/editorials/64.html
"The Bookmark for the Global Indian"...

so the grass isn't always greener...

I want to be a Whig.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Thanasis Kinias]

scripsit Monique Y. Herman:
 
> If we had a system in which we could vote more than once, for example
> by specifying a first, second, and third choice, maybe we would see
> some shake-up.
 
Maybe we should let Debian run U.S. elections then? ;)
[attempt to make this a bit less OT...]

Seriously, a good first step would be proportional representation.
Check out how the devolved Scottish Parliament does things.  Under such
a system (I did the math a while ago) we'd have a small but nonzero
number of (at least) Greens and Libertarians in the House, even with
current voting percentages.  Once people like Monique realized that a
vote for the Greens (or whomever) wasn't completely wasted, those
numbers would surely rise.

I believe the German federal parliament has a similar system; perhaps
our EU brethren can comment...

-- 
Pax vobiscum; pax cum omnibus.

Thanasis Kinias
tkinias at asu.edu
Doctoral Student, Department of History
Arizona State University
Tempe, Arizona, U.S.A.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Monique Y. Herman]

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 at 12:38 GMT, Hoyt Bailey penned:
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Monique Y. Herman"
>>
>> I tend to think that the reason you're okay with the right and the
>> left taking turns is that, for the most part, the politicians on both
>> sides are nothing but center.  I'm sick of republicrats and
>> democricans alike.
>>
>> -- monique "two-party systems suck"
>>
> We dont have a two party system.  There is the green party,  comunist
> party, independent party and several others.  The problem is only 1%
> or so support them (All of them).  Hoyt
> 

In theory, we have a multi-party system.  In practice, voting for a
"third-party" candidate is a wasted vote, because everyone "knows" that
every vote cast outside of the Big Two is wasted, and so no one bothers.

If we had a system in which we could vote more than once, for example by
specifying a first, second, and third choice, maybe we would see some
shake-up.

I don't believe that the Big Two are so well-represented because people
actually believe that they're any good.  I believe they're
well-represented because voters believe a vote for another party will
simply reduce their chances of getting the "lesser evil" of the two.
Me, I don't like the democratic party, but I'd rather see them in office
than the republicans.  Others feel the opposite.  Either way, we're not
going to vote for a third party candidate if we feel it's a wasted vote.

-- 
monique


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Monique Y. Herman]

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 at 17:56 GMT, Paul Johnson penned:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 07:13:33PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote:
>> Put all politicians on a wage of $500.00/week, and make it a capital
>> offense to take a political bribe, and you would get the ones that
>> want to do the job for the right reasons.
> 
> Would also encourage just random people to get a job as a politician
> because it would be a reasonable income.
> 

Friends of mine postulated the idea of having "politician duty" in much
the same was as we have jury duty ... you get a letter one day telling
you it's your turn to serve.  Pretty sure this was done in at least one
ancient govt ... think it was Athens.

"Random people" have a much better chance of aligning with my interests
than politicians.  The fact is, anyone who's willing to put themselves
and their family through the torture that is a politician's life by
definition does not share my values.

-- 
monique


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Kent West]

Paul Johnson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 07:13:33PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote:

Put all politicians on a wage of $500.00/week, and make it a capital
offense to take a political bribe, and you would get the ones that want
to do the job for the right reasons.


Would also encourage just random people to get a job as a politician
because it would be a reasonable income.
Works for me. They'd still have to get elected and do a half-decent job 
to get re-elected, and it's my opinion that the fewer "professionals" we 
have in office the better. Of course, I could be totally daft.

--
Kent
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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 07:13:33PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote:
> Put all politicians on a wage of $500.00/week, and make it a capital
> offense to take a political bribe, and you would get the ones that want
> to do the job for the right reasons.

Would also encourage just random people to get a job as a politician
because it would be a reasonable income.

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: :'  :
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  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Hoyt Bailey]

- Original Message - 
From: "Monique Y. Herman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 14:14
Subject: Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian
Project Emergency Communications)


> On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 at 20:04 GMT, Tom penned:
> > On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 07:12:33AM -0500, Paul Morgan wrote:
> >>
> >> And everyone seems to SHOUT on Fox.
> >
> > I like it when we take turns.  I hope the left will play nice on the
> > playground and accept that we're alternating decades.  They had a nice
> > long run with Clinton following a nice long run with Reagan.  It would
> > be rude not to let the right have a nice long turn.
> >
> > I will be vehemently against the left in this election but in 2008 it
> > will be their turn again, *if* they can exhibit the patience and
> > maturity.  It will be so lovely if we play nice with each other and
> > take nice turns.
> >
>
> I tend to think that the reason you're okay with the right and the left
> taking turns is that, for the most part, the politicians on both sides
> are nothing but center.  I'm sick of republicrats and democricans alike.
>
> -- 
> monique "two-party systems suck"
>
We dont have a two party system.  There is the green party,  comunist party,
independent party and several others.  The problem is only 1% or so support
them (All of them).
Hoyt



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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[David Palmer.]

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:01:13 -0800
Tom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 12:53:29PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote:
> 
> > Two parties, sharing power, no difference between the two other than
> > name.
> 
> I used to be like that, all mad at everybody.  The internal assumption
> 
> that validates it to yourself is "I could do it much better, if
> only..."
> 
> Once I had a few experiences I have a lot more sympathies for 
> politicians.  They're doing the best they can with an absurd
> situation. 
> 
> You can't underestimate just how random the combined opinions of 
> thousands of people with every viewpoint under the sun are.  I know
> *I* couldn't do any better.
> 
> 
I'm not mad at anyone.
If there is a form of arrogance that displays a lack of experience, it's
analysis at a distance.
Put all politicians on a wage of $500.00/week, and make it a capital
offense to take a political bribe, and you would get the ones that want
to do the job for the right reasons.
Regards,

David.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 05:36:18PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:

> Granted.  But that's why I go to a real Taco Bell instead.  Or,
> politically speaking, why I was driven to socialism.

You'll change.  You're Echo Boomer.  Your parents, the Baby Boomers, 
went from being WWII babies, to Hippies, to Disco, to Yuppies, to Soccer 
Moms, to Stock Market People.  All that you believe will pass away.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 12:53:29PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote:

> Two parties, sharing power, no difference between the two other than
> name.

I used to be like that, all mad at everybody.  The internal assumption 
that validates it to yourself is "I could do it much better, if only..."

Once I had a few experiences I have a lot more sympathies for 
politicians.  They're doing the best they can with an absurd situation. 

You can't underestimate just how random the combined opinions of 
thousands of people with every viewpoint under the sun are.  I know *I* 
couldn't do any better.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[David Palmer.]

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:14:24 -0700
"Monique Y. Herman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 at 20:04 GMT, Tom penned:
> > On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 07:12:33AM -0500, Paul Morgan wrote:
> >> 
> >> And everyone seems to SHOUT on Fox.
> > 
> > I like it when we take turns.  I hope the left will play nice on the
> > playground and accept that we're alternating decades.  They had a
> > nice long run with Clinton following a nice long run with Reagan. 
> > It would be rude not to let the right have a nice long turn.
> > 
> > I will be vehemently against the left in this election but in 2008
> > it will be their turn again, *if* they can exhibit the patience and
> > maturity.  It will be so lovely if we play nice with each other and
> > take nice turns.
> > 
> 
> I tend to think that the reason you're okay with the right and the
> left taking turns is that, for the most part, the politicians on both
> sides are nothing but center.  I'm sick of republicrats and
> democricans alike.
> 
> -- 
> monique "two-party systems suck"
> 
That's right.
It's all a game.
Two parties, sharing power, no difference between the two other than
name.
Regards,

David.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 09:21:57AM -0700, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> scripsit Paul Johnson:
>  
> > Preface: I was born in 1982, and in my opinion, Clinton is the best
> > president we've had in my lifetime (don't bother flaming me for this,
> > you won't change my mind, and Carter was before my time).
>  
> Not many to choose from there...  sorta like trying to pick the best
> thing on the menu at a Taco Bell Express...

Granted.  But that's why I go to a real Taco Bell instead.  Or,
politically speaking, why I was driven to socialism.

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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

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On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 12:04:27PM -0800, Tom wrote:
> I like it when we take turns.  I hope the left will play nice on the 
> playground and accept that we're alternating decades.  They had a nice 
> long run with Clinton following a nice long run with Reagan.  It would 
> be rude not to let the right have a nice long turn.

Actually, it would be rude to go any longer letting the right continue
broken voodoo economics and campaign contributor pork barrel.

> I will be vehemently against the left in this election but in 2008 it 
> will be their turn again, *if* they can exhibit the patience and 
> maturity.

In my lifetime, the Democrats show it sporadically, but Republicans
have never shown it.  I believe Lincoln would be ashamed what happened
to his party.

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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

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On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 07:12:33AM -0500, Paul Morgan wrote:
> And everyone seems to SHOUT on Fox.

Yup, the last resort of a liar or bigot trying to be taken seriously.

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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Monique Y. Herman]

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 at 20:04 GMT, Tom penned:
> On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 07:12:33AM -0500, Paul Morgan wrote:
>> 
>> And everyone seems to SHOUT on Fox.
> 
> I like it when we take turns.  I hope the left will play nice on the
> playground and accept that we're alternating decades.  They had a nice
> long run with Clinton following a nice long run with Reagan.  It would
> be rude not to let the right have a nice long turn.
> 
> I will be vehemently against the left in this election but in 2008 it
> will be their turn again, *if* they can exhibit the patience and
> maturity.  It will be so lovely if we play nice with each other and
> take nice turns.
> 

I tend to think that the reason you're okay with the right and the left
taking turns is that, for the most part, the politicians on both sides
are nothing but center.  I'm sick of republicrats and democricans alike.

-- 
monique "two-party systems suck"


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 07:12:33AM -0500, Paul Morgan wrote:
> 
> And everyone seems to SHOUT on Fox.

I like it when we take turns.  I hope the left will play nice on the 
playground and accept that we're alternating decades.  They had a nice 
long run with Clinton following a nice long run with Reagan.  It would 
be rude not to let the right have a nice long turn.

I will be vehemently against the left in this election but in 2008 it 
will be their turn again, *if* they can exhibit the patience and 
maturity.  It will be so lovely if we play nice with each other and take 
nice turns.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Morgan]

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:36:48 -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Please quote appropriately.  http://learn.to/quote/
> 
> On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 06:41:04AM -0800, Tom wrote:
> (re: news)
>> > Exception CNN 0% Fox News 90% +/- (depending on source)
>> 
>> I'll agree Fox is for the stupid, but it's better than 40 movies being 
>> made about the president getting some poon on the side :-)
> 
> CNN isn't horribly credible to me since AOL bought them out.  Now the
> only real difference between CNN and FNC is CNN is for the merely
> stupid, whereas Fox News is for the criminally stupid.
> 
> 

And everyone seems to SHOUT on Fox.

-- 
paul


"I think that gay marriage is something that should be between a man and
a woman."

-- Arnold Schwarzenegger, Governor of California



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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Thanasis Kinias]

scripsit Paul Johnson:
 
> Preface: I was born in 1982, and in my opinion, Clinton is the best
> president we've had in my lifetime (don't bother flaming me for this,
> you won't change my mind, and Carter was before my time).
 
Not many to choose from there...  sorta like trying to pick the best
thing on the menu at a Taco Bell Express...

-- 
Pax vobiscum; pax cum omnibus.

Thanasis Kinias
tkinias at asu.edu
Doctoral Student, Department of History
Arizona State University
Tempe, Arizona, U.S.A.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 10:46:36PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:

> IIRC, Bill didn't use a paper bag, but rather hid under the desk.

I think you mean *she* hid under the desk.  The image the other way 
around is not pretty.

> Preface: I was born in 1982, and in my opinion, Clinton is the best
> president we've had in my lifetime

I respect him in a Machiavellian sense; he got shit done.  But his whole 
moral outlook set a bad tone for the country: our ethics were diminished 
by him.  By the end (the pardons in the last days) even his best friends 
were ashamed of him.  In 1992, I saw my girlfriend and everybody's wives 
fall under his spell, and the one lesson of politics my friends is: Rock 
is Cock.  Women vote for who they'd rather fuck, and men's morals are 
based on "do whatever to keep who lays you happy". :-)  Realpolitik 
enough?

> Grateful Dead was more weed and LSD.

Jerry Garcia was my hero, but even I can recognize that he was just a 
burnt out Heroin addict.  Just because he was the coolest guy ever 
doesn't mean he wasn't a sad wreck who died for a bad reason.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 11:20:31PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:
> I have no faith in America.  Not that I wish it ill, quite the
> contrary.  It could have been great.  We just let the greedy get too
> powerful.  Last I checked, America was supposed to be by the people,
> for the people, not by the people for the rich and privleged.

They used to laugh at us because we were fatter than everybody else.  
Now I've been hearing about how fat the fast of the developped world is 
getting too.  They blame us, but I don't buy it.  A *true* philosophy of 
equality amoung humanity recognizes that nobody is any worse, but nor is 
anybody any better, than anybody else.

Poverty and disease tends to breed things like religion and passions.  
Relative absences of those (our homeless can be fat) is us :-)

I wonder if it'll always be like that...


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 10:57:04PM -0800, Tom wrote:
> Well, I don't agree with either part of that, but I don't believe the 
> opposite.  I don't see a liberal or conserative slant in CNN, but I do 
> see a bias towards "artificial" news which is to me more oppressive.

That's what I was getting at, I thought.

> I don't think right-wingers are criminally stupid, just cloying.

There's a difference, when it comes to running a superpower?  Cloying
is fine on a small scale, but when it comes to big issues, let's get
something done instead of using my money for handouts to campaign
contributors.

> I enjoyed watching the news in Canada.  The TV announcers generally used 
> longer sentences and posited more complex concepts.  American TV is 
> written or no more than 5th grade comrehension.

This is true.  I usually watch the local CBC affiliate for national
and international news (I'm in Portland, Oregon).
http://vancouver.cbc.ca/

> An older female reporter in Boston tried a "smarter" news show and the 
> ratings were horrible.  Unfortunately we tend to get what we deserve.
> Look inward.

I have no faith in America.  Not that I wish it ill, quite the
contrary.  It could have been great.  We just let the greedy get too
powerful.  Last I checked, America was supposed to be by the people,
for the people, not by the people for the rich and privleged.

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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 10:36:48PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:
> 
> CNN isn't horribly credible to me since AOL bought them out.  Now the
> only real difference between CNN and FNC is CNN is for the merely
> stupid, whereas Fox News is for the criminally stupid.

Well, I don't agree with either part of that, but I don't believe the 
opposite.  I don't see a liberal or conserative slant in CNN, but I do 
see a bias towards "artificial" news which is to me more oppressive.  I 
don't think right-wingers are criminally stupid, just cloying.

I enjoyed watching the news in Canada.  The TV announcers generally used 
longer sentences and posited more complex concepts.  American TV is 
written or no more than 5th grade comrehension.

An older female reporter in Boston tried a "smarter" news show and the 
ratings were horrible.  Unfortunately we tend to get what we deserve.
Look inward.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 11:53:21AM -0800, Tom wrote:
> OTOH, you have to respect Bill falling for the paper bag types.  I can 
> sure identify...

IIRC, Bill didn't use a paper bag, but rather hid under the desk.
Which begs the question, is the type Bill falls for the "desktop" or
"laptop" variety?  8;o)

> Some other great stories I've heard are Willie Nelson smoking a
> joint on the roof of the whitehouse, the Grateful Dead snorting coke
> in the whitehouse bathroom while the Secret Service were around,

Preface: I was born in 1982, and in my opinion, Clinton is the best
president we've had in my lifetime (don't bother flaming me for this,
you won't change my mind, and Carter was before my time).

Grateful Dead was more weed and LSD.  Coke or weed sounds equally
believable to me with Willie Nelson for some reason.  And I have to
agree with Dana Carvey:  I'm pretty sure the DEA was giving Bill all
the primo weed they were confiscating.  Somewhat indecisive, jogs to
McDonalds...read the clues!

> and Elvis tripping on LSD with Nixon.

I would pay to see that.

> There's a great book out now called "First off the Tee" about all
> the presidents and their golf games.  You'd be surprised how much
> the stereotypes are true.  Kennedy was the best golfer.  Clinton
> cheats like hell on the course and makes you go along with it...
> Saw it on Cspan.

Gotta love Government Access.

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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Please quote appropriately.  http://learn.to/quote/

On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 06:41:04AM -0800, Tom wrote:
(re: news)
> > Exception CNN 0% Fox News 90% +/- (depending on source)
> 
> I'll agree Fox is for the stupid, but it's better than 40 movies being 
> made about the president getting some poon on the side :-)

CNN isn't horribly credible to me since AOL bought them out.  Now the
only real difference between CNN and FNC is CNN is for the merely
stupid, whereas Fox News is for the criminally stupid.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Deryk Barker]

Thus spake Thanasis Kinias ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> scripsit Tom:
> > On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 11:53:21AM -0800, Tom wrote:
> > > .. Elvis tripping on LSD with Nixon.
> > 
> > s/with/in front of/
> 
> It's much funnier the other way...

This was presumably the occasion when RMN make Elvis a special
anti-drug agent, something Elvis was apparently inordinately proud
of. 

Nobody mentioned the Beatles rolling up and smoking a joint in the
washrooms of Buckingham Palace when they went to collect their MBEs in
1965.

-- 
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Music does not have to be understood|
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada| It has to be listened to.   |
|email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | |
|phone: +1 250 370 4452   | Hermann Scherchen.  |


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Thanasis Kinias]

scripsit Tom:
> On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 11:53:21AM -0800, Tom wrote:
> > .. Elvis tripping on LSD with Nixon.
> 
> s/with/in front of/

It's much funnier the other way...

-- 
Pax vobiscum; pax cum omnibus.

Thanasis Kinias
tkinias at asu.edu
Doctoral Student, Department of History
Arizona State University
Tempe, Arizona, U.S.A.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 11:53:21AM -0800, Tom wrote:
> .. Elvis tripping on LSD with Nixon.

s/with/in front of/


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 12:29:59PM -0500, Paul Morgan wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 06:41:04 -0800, Tom wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I'll agree Fox is for the stupid, but it's better than 40 movies being 
> > made about the president getting some poon on the side :-)
> > 
> 
> I have this persistent vision of a retired World Leaders' cocktail party,
> with a conversation whcih goes something like this:
> 
> "Hi, I'm Yiztak and I won a Nobel Peace Prize.  This is Yassir, and he won
> one too."
> 
> "Pleased to meet you.  I'm Bill and I got a hummer in the Oval Office of
> the White House."
> 
> silence.
> 
> I mean, that pretty much trumps everything, doesn't it?
> 

I think JFK + Marilyn Monroe probably tops it.  Or Frank Sinatra + Nancy 
Reagan (but only 'cause Frank was so cool).

OTOH, you have to respect Bill falling for the paper bag types.  I can 
sure identify...

Some other great stories I've heard are Willie Nelson smoking a joint on 
the roof of the whitehouse, the Grateful Dead snorting coke in the 
whitehouse bathroom while the Secret Service were around, and Elvis 
tripping on LSD with Nixon.

There's a great book out now called "First off the Tee" about all the 
presidents and their golf games.  You'd be surprised how much the 
stereotypes are true.  Kennedy was the best golfer.  Clinton cheats like 
hell on the course and makes you go along with it...

Saw it on Cspan.


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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Paul Morgan]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 06:41:04 -0800, Tom wrote:

> 
> I'll agree Fox is for the stupid, but it's better than 40 movies being 
> made about the president getting some poon on the side :-)
> 

I have this persistent vision of a retired World Leaders' cocktail party,
with a conversation whcih goes something like this:

"Hi, I'm Yiztak and I won a Nobel Peace Prize.  This is Yassir, and he won
one too."

"Pleased to meet you.  I'm Bill and I got a hummer in the Oval Office of
the White House."

silence.

I mean, that pretty much trumps everything, doesn't it?



-- 
paul

"The average lifespan of a Web page today is 100 days. This is no way to
run a culture."

Internet Archive Board Chairman



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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Tom]

On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 07:21:25AM -0600, Hoyt Bailey wrote:
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "csj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 18:25
> Subject: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project
> Emergency Communications)
> 
> 
> > On 1. December 2003 at 7:51AM +0800,
> > "David Palmer." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:01:22 -0800
> > > "Karsten M. Self" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > on Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 09:53:37PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman
> > > > ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 at 03:22 GMT, John Hasler penned:
> > > > > > Monique wrote:
> > > > > > > The difference is that, by allowing replies to
> > > > > > > accumulate and reading them filtered to +3, you have a
> > > > > > > decent chance of finding out when a submission was
> > > > > > > likely off-base.
> >
> > In practically all slashdot stories I've read (I wouldn't
> > necessarily call them news), there are always links to check out.
> > This is how I initially found out about the Debian compromise
> > (actually it was via a slashdot RDF newsfeed).  I read the blurb,
> > checked the link(s?) and then went googling around.  To rely 100%
> > on slashdot is as dangerous as relying 100% on CNN or Fox News.
> >
> 
> Exception CNN 0% Fox News 90% +/- (depending on source)

I'll agree Fox is for the stupid, but it's better than 40 movies being 
made about the president getting some poon on the side :-)

> 
> > > > > > That's what I meant by corrections.  Whenever Slashdot
> > > > > > screws up I can be fairly certain that several of its
> > > > > > thousands of knowledgeable readers will gleefully point
> > > > > > out the error.
> >
> > Slashdot never screws up.  A forum never screws up.
> >
> > > > > Agreed.  But I wanted to be clear, both to you and to
> > > > > everyone else, that slashdot's front page is *not* in any
> > > > > way guaranteed to be accurate.  Taking any of their blurbs
> > > > > at face value tends to make an ass out of you ...
> > > >
> > > > The blurbs are written by the article submitter, and
> > > > (generally) not Slashdot's editors.
> >
> > Slashdot has editors?  Now that's news.  I've always thought of
> > Slashdot as the text-based equivalent of a talk show.  Somebody
> > comes up with an item for discussion, and a panel of commentators
> > begin firing away.  Of course, talk shows, like some mailing
> > lists (not Debian User), have moderators, who have the privilege
> > of deciding what initial topic gets discussed.
> >
> > > > The submitter may be wrong, misinformed, biased, or have an
> > > > axe to grind.  Or not.
> > > >
> > > > The "mainstream" media have gross factual errors in about
> > > > 30-50% of stories.  Without, as noted here, the instant
> > > > feedback offered by Slashdot and other online sites.
> >
> > I don't know about the "instant".  But most newspapers worth
> > their name have the equivalent of a "letters" section.
> >
> > > The mainstream media also have an extremely high 'tame' factor.
> > > The political strategy is always involved with maintaining a
> > > common doctrine so as to maintain a population mass proceeding
> > > in what is perceived as a 'common productive direction', for
> > > example.  This is a marketable commodity.  It is also a path
> > > that diverges from that of the honest one.  There are reasons
> > > why, for example, that journalists in warzones have their
> > > stories 'vetted' before they are approved for release to the
> > > outside world.
> >
> > I can understand the vetting done to so-called "embedded"
> > journalists.
> >
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Hoyt Bailey]

- Original Message - 
From: "csj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 18:25
Subject: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project
Emergency Communications)


> On 1. December 2003 at 7:51AM +0800,
> "David Palmer." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:01:22 -0800
> > "Karsten M. Self" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > on Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 09:53:37PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman
> > > ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 at 03:22 GMT, John Hasler penned:
> > > > > Monique wrote:
> > > > > > The difference is that, by allowing replies to
> > > > > > accumulate and reading them filtered to +3, you have a
> > > > > > decent chance of finding out when a submission was
> > > > > > likely off-base.
>
> In practically all slashdot stories I've read (I wouldn't
> necessarily call them news), there are always links to check out.
> This is how I initially found out about the Debian compromise
> (actually it was via a slashdot RDF newsfeed).  I read the blurb,
> checked the link(s?) and then went googling around.  To rely 100%
> on slashdot is as dangerous as relying 100% on CNN or Fox News.
>

Exception CNN 0% Fox News 90% +/- (depending on source)

> > > > > That's what I meant by corrections.  Whenever Slashdot
> > > > > screws up I can be fairly certain that several of its
> > > > > thousands of knowledgeable readers will gleefully point
> > > > > out the error.
>
> Slashdot never screws up.  A forum never screws up.
>
> > > > Agreed.  But I wanted to be clear, both to you and to
> > > > everyone else, that slashdot's front page is *not* in any
> > > > way guaranteed to be accurate.  Taking any of their blurbs
> > > > at face value tends to make an ass out of you ...
> > >
> > > The blurbs are written by the article submitter, and
> > > (generally) not Slashdot's editors.
>
> Slashdot has editors?  Now that's news.  I've always thought of
> Slashdot as the text-based equivalent of a talk show.  Somebody
> comes up with an item for discussion, and a panel of commentators
> begin firing away.  Of course, talk shows, like some mailing
> lists (not Debian User), have moderators, who have the privilege
> of deciding what initial topic gets discussed.
>
> > > The submitter may be wrong, misinformed, biased, or have an
> > > axe to grind.  Or not.
> > >
> > > The "mainstream" media have gross factual errors in about
> > > 30-50% of stories.  Without, as noted here, the instant
> > > feedback offered by Slashdot and other online sites.
>
> I don't know about the "instant".  But most newspapers worth
> their name have the equivalent of a "letters" section.
>
> > The mainstream media also have an extremely high 'tame' factor.
> > The political strategy is always involved with maintaining a
> > common doctrine so as to maintain a population mass proceeding
> > in what is perceived as a 'common productive direction', for
> > example.  This is a marketable commodity.  It is also a path
> > that diverges from that of the honest one.  There are reasons
> > why, for example, that journalists in warzones have their
> > stories 'vetted' before they are approved for release to the
> > outside world.
>
> I can understand the vetting done to so-called "embedded"
> journalists.
>



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[OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[csj]

On 1. December 2003 at 7:51AM +0800,
"David Palmer." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:01:22 -0800
> "Karsten M. Self" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > on Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 09:53:37PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman
> > ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > > On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 at 03:22 GMT, John Hasler penned:
> > > > Monique wrote:
> > > > > The difference is that, by allowing replies to
> > > > > accumulate and reading them filtered to +3, you have a
> > > > > decent chance of finding out when a submission was
> > > > > likely off-base.

In practically all slashdot stories I've read (I wouldn't
necessarily call them news), there are always links to check out.
This is how I initially found out about the Debian compromise
(actually it was via a slashdot RDF newsfeed).  I read the blurb,
checked the link(s?) and then went googling around.  To rely 100%
on slashdot is as dangerous as relying 100% on CNN or Fox News.

> > > > That's what I meant by corrections.  Whenever Slashdot
> > > > screws up I can be fairly certain that several of its
> > > > thousands of knowledgeable readers will gleefully point
> > > > out the error.

Slashdot never screws up.  A forum never screws up.

> > > Agreed.  But I wanted to be clear, both to you and to
> > > everyone else, that slashdot's front page is *not* in any
> > > way guaranteed to be accurate.  Taking any of their blurbs
> > > at face value tends to make an ass out of you ...
> > 
> > The blurbs are written by the article submitter, and
> > (generally) not Slashdot's editors.

Slashdot has editors?  Now that's news.  I've always thought of
Slashdot as the text-based equivalent of a talk show.  Somebody
comes up with an item for discussion, and a panel of commentators
begin firing away.  Of course, talk shows, like some mailing
lists (not Debian User), have moderators, who have the privilege
of deciding what initial topic gets discussed.

> > The submitter may be wrong, misinformed, biased, or have an
> > axe to grind.  Or not.
> > 
> > The "mainstream" media have gross factual errors in about
> > 30-50% of stories.  Without, as noted here, the instant
> > feedback offered by Slashdot and other online sites.

I don't know about the "instant".  But most newspapers worth
their name have the equivalent of a "letters" section.

> The mainstream media also have an extremely high 'tame' factor.
> The political strategy is always involved with maintaining a
> common doctrine so as to maintain a population mass proceeding
> in what is perceived as a 'common productive direction', for
> example.  This is a marketable commodity.  It is also a path
> that diverges from that of the honest one.  There are reasons
> why, for example, that journalists in warzones have their
> stories 'vetted' before they are approved for release to the
> outside world.

I can understand the vetting done to so-called "embedded"
journalists.


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Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications (was Re: communication structures crumbled)

[Wendell Cochran]

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:43:36 -0700
From: "Monique Y. Herman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 at 10:07 GMT, csj :
>> On 29. November 2003 at 11:07AM -0700, "Monique Y. Herman" :
>>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 at 14:56 GMT, Roberto Sanchez :
>>> > 
>>> > I don't see how this is an issue.  I found out the same way I get
>>> > all my other news: from slashdot :-)
>>> I read slashdot, too, and I read it enough to realize that their
>>> stories are as often misinformation as news.
>> I read slashdot for the headlines.  The real news is probably linked
>> somewhere.

>That's my whole point =) The headlines are where the damage is done.

Just to rub it in with lye & corundum, see 
http://news.google.com
-- & try to deduce the news from the headlines quoted.

In every newspaper I know, head-hunting is a lost art.

Wendell Cochran
West Seattle




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Re: Slasdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[David Palmer.]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:01:22 -0800
"Karsten M. Self" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> on Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 09:53:37PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman
> ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 at 03:22 GMT, John Hasler penned:
> > > Monique wrote:
> > >> The difference is that, by allowing replies to accumulate and
> > >reading> them filtered to +3, you have a decent chance of finding
> > >out when a> submission was likely off-base.
> > > 
> > > That's what I meant by corrections.  Whenever Slashdot screws up I
> > > can be fairly certain that several of its thousands of
> > > knowledgeable readers will gleefully point out the error.
> > 
> > Agreed.  But I wanted to be clear, both to you and to everyone else,
> > that slashdot's front page is *not* in any way guaranteed to be
> > accurate.  Taking any of their blurbs at face value tends to make an
> > ass out of you ...
> 
> The blurbs are written by the article submitter, and (generally) not
> Slashdot's editors.
> 
> The submitter may be wrong, misinformed, biased, or have an axe to
> grind.  Or not.
> 
> The "mainstream" media have gross factual errors in about 30-50% of
> stories.  Without, as noted here, the instant feedback offered by
> Slashdot and other online sites.
> 
The mainstream media also have an extremely high 'tame' factor.
The political strategy is always involved with maintaining a common
doctrine so as to maintain a population mass proceeding in what is
perceived as a 'common productive direction', for example.
This is a marketable commodity.
It is also a path that diverges from that of the honest one.
There are reasons why, for example, that journalists in warzones have
their stories 'vetted' before they are approved for release to the
outside world.
Regards,

David.


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Slasdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)

[Karsten M. Self]

on Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 09:53:37PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 at 03:22 GMT, John Hasler penned:
> > Monique wrote:
> >> The difference is that, by allowing replies to accumulate and reading
> >> them filtered to +3, you have a decent chance of finding out when a
> >> submission was likely off-base.
> > 
> > That's what I meant by corrections.  Whenever Slashdot screws up I can
> > be fairly certain that several of its thousands of knowledgeable
> > readers will gleefully point out the error.
> 
> Agreed.  But I wanted to be clear, both to you and to everyone else,
> that slashdot's front page is *not* in any way guaranteed to be
> accurate.  Taking any of their blurbs at face value tends to make an ass
> out of you ...

The blurbs are written by the article submitter, and (generally) not
Slashdot's editors.

The submitter may be wrong, misinformed, biased, or have an axe to
grind.  Or not.

The "mainstream" media have gross factual errors in about 30-50% of
stories.  Without, as noted here, the instant feedback offered by
Slashdot and other online sites.


Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
  Backgrounder on the Caldera/SCO vs. IBM and Linux dispute.
  http://sco.iwethey.org/


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Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications (was Re: communication structures crumbled)

[Monique Y. Herman]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 at 10:07 GMT, csj penned:
> On 29. November 2003 at 11:07AM -0700, "Monique Y. Herman"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 at 14:56 GMT, Roberto Sanchez penned:
>> > 
>> > I don't see how this is an issue.  I found out the same way I get
>> > all my other news: from slashdot :-)
>> > 
>> I read slashdot, too, and I read it enough to realize that their
>> stories are as often misinformation as news.
> 
> I read slashdot for the headlines.  The real news is probably linked
> somewhere.
> 

That's my whole point =) The headlines are where the damage is done.

-- 
monique


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Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications (was Re: communication structures crumbled)

[csj]

On 29. November 2003 at 11:07AM -0700,
"Monique Y. Herman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 at 14:56 GMT, Roberto Sanchez penned:
> > 
> > I don't see how this is an issue.  I found out the same way I
> > get all my other news: from slashdot :-)
> > 
> I read slashdot, too, and I read it enough to realize that
> their stories are as often misinformation as news.

I read slashdot for the headlines.  The real news is probably
linked somewhere.


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Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications

[John Hasler]

Monique wrote:
> Agreed.  But I wanted to be clear, both to you and to everyone else, that
> slashdot's front page is *not* in any way guaranteed to be accurate.
> Taking any of their blurbs at face value tends to make an ass out of you
> ...

Same applies to the front page of any newspaper.
-- 
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI


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Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications

[Monique Y. Herman]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 at 03:22 GMT, John Hasler penned:
> Monique wrote:
>> The difference is that, by allowing replies to accumulate and reading
>> them filtered to +3, you have a decent chance of finding out when a
>> submission was likely off-base.
> 
> That's what I meant by corrections.  Whenever Slashdot screws up I can
> be fairly certain that several of its thousands of knowledgeable
> readers will gleefully point out the error.

Agreed.  But I wanted to be clear, both to you and to everyone else,
that slashdot's front page is *not* in any way guaranteed to be
accurate.  Taking any of their blurbs at face value tends to make an ass
out of you ...

> It is my experience that the more I know about a subject the more
> errors I see in news about that subject.  From this I conclude that
> news reporting on any given subject is no more accurate than reporting
> on those subjects about which I know the most.  And that's pretty damn
> inaccurate.

Ditto, and yeah, scary.

-- 
monique


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Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications

[John Hasler]

Monique wrote:
> The difference is that, by allowing replies to accumulate and reading
> them filtered to +3, you have a decent chance of finding out when a
> submission was likely off-base.

That's what I meant by corrections.  Whenever Slashdot screws up I can be
fairly certain that several of its thousands of knowledgeable readers will
gleefully point out the error.

> It's not uncommon to have 2-3 news items a day that completely missed the
> point, or misrepresented the point, of the article or technology on which
> they're reporting.

That's about how many I see in the "real" news media.  However, since they
publish corrections only on pain of lawsuit, I can detect those only by
applying my own personal knowledge and experience.  This means that I must
assume that many more go undetected.

It is my experience that the more I know about a subject the more errors I
see in news about that subject.  From this I conclude that news reporting
on any given subject is no more accurate than reporting on those subjects
about which I know the most.  And that's pretty damn inaccurate.
-- 
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI


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Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications

[Monique Y. Herman]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 at 00:18 GMT, John Hasler penned:
> Monique wrote:
>> I read slashdot, too, and I read it enough to realize that their
>> stories are as often misinformation as news.
> 
> Slashdot is about as accurate as are "real" news media.  The
> difference is that Slashdot publishes corrections.

I disagree.  The difference is that, by allowing replies to accumulate
and reading them filtered to +3, you have a decent chance of finding out
when a submission was likely off-base.

It's not uncommon to have 2-3 news items a day that completely missed
the point, or misrepresented the point, of the article or technology on
which they're reporting.

-- 
monique


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Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications

[John Hasler]

Monique wrote:
> I read slashdot, too, and I read it enough to realize that their stories
> are as often misinformation as news.

Slashdot is about as accurate as are "real" news media.  The difference is
that Slashdot publishes corrections.
-- 
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin


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Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications (was Re: communication structures crumbled)

[Miernik]

On 2003-11-29, Monique Y. Herman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I read slashdot, too, and I read it enough to realize that their stories
> are as often misinformation as news.

Like when they've put a story just after the vote with a threatening
title "EU Parliament Approves Software Patents":

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/03/09/24/1253227.shtml

while I was in the EU parliment in Strasbourg after 30 hours non-sleep
with several other FFII lobbying people, being happy of the good vote
the parliment did.

It was aslo our fault we didn't manage to inform everybody
immidiately, but we where too tired to do anything useful fast :(

-- 
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___/__ tel: +48608233394 __/  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Truth about Bush's military operations: 
http://www.TruthAboutWar.org/


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Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications (was Re: communication structures crumbled)

[Monique Y. Herman]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 at 14:56 GMT, Roberto Sanchez penned:
> 
> I don't see how this is an issue.  I found out the same way I get all
> my other news: from slashdot :-)
> 
> -Roberto
> 

I read slashdot, too, and I read it enough to realize that their stories
are as often misinformation as news.

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Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications (was Re: communication structures crumbled)

[Roberto Sanchez]

Martin Schulze wrote:
Karsten M. Self wrote:

It had to be re-installed.  You probably know that since you've read
the announcement we were able to send out before the machine was taken
down for reinstallation.
That announcement wasn't delivered for all users until _after_ murphy
was resurrected.  I myself got the debian-security-announce message
mailed Nov 21 on 25 Nov 2003 15:16:56 -0800.


That's true since murphy was powered down for a re-install in the middle
of its delivery.  The (same) mail on debian-announce should have been
delivered by that time.
Regards,

	Joey

I don't see how this is an issue.  I found out the same way I get all my
other news: from slashdot :-)
-Roberto


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Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications (was Re: communication structures crumbled)

[Martin Schulze]

Karsten M. Self wrote:
> > It had to be re-installed.  You probably know that since you've read
> > the announcement we were able to send out before the machine was taken
> > down for reinstallation.
> 
> That announcement wasn't delivered for all users until _after_ murphy
> was resurrected.  I myself got the debian-security-announce message
> mailed Nov 21 on 25 Nov 2003 15:16:56 -0800.

That's true since murphy was powered down for a re-install in the middle
of its delivery.  The (same) mail on debian-announce should have been
delivered by that time.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
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Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications (was Re: communication structures crumbled)

[Ross Boylan]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 04:14:19AM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> I'll disagree with Martin's comment that the server compromise didn't
> constitute a security issue despite the lack of an archive compromise.
> For someone well versed in Debian procedures, it might have been
> plausible that the archives themselves weren't compromised.  For a
> typical user, I don't think this was the case.  For the typical user's
> management or clients, it's very likely _not_ the case, and a timely
> positive statement of status would be very, very helpful.
> 
> Security affecting Debian servers _potentially_ affects Debian packages.
> As it was, I cleared my locale package cache and stopped updates on
> hearing about the compromise.  It wasn't for another few hours that I
> was aware that the archive was reportedly _not_ compromised.
> 
> In the absense of any information, the security status of Debian project
> packages in the event of a known or rumored server compromise is at best
> unknown.

It wasn't clear to me that the packages that I had downloaded were
safe, and it even wasn't clear after reading that the archives were
safe.  I suggest some phrase like "packages in the debian archive" or
just "debian packages."

The reason is that "archive" usually means something covering
(ancient) history.  I initially thought it referred to the mailing
list archives.  If I'd thought harder, I might have thought it
referred to past debian packages (which I think are provided via
snapshot.debian.org?? I've never used them).

Perhaps I should have known better, but since the confusion seems
pretty easy, and pretty easy to fix, I suggest fixing it if we should
ever have such an unfortunate incident again.

Thanks to all those who worked so hard to detect, and then correct,
this problem.

Ross Boylan


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Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications (was Re: communication structures crumbled)

[Karsten M. Self]

on Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 09:30:05AM +0100, Martin Schulze ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Dan Jacobson wrote:
> > To us debian users, the most notable thing during this break in or
> > whatever episode, is how the communication structures crumbled.
> 
> It had to be re-installed.  You probably know that since you've read
> the announcement we were able to send out before the machine was taken
> down for reinstallation.

That announcement wasn't delivered for all users until _after_ murphy
was resurrected.  I myself got the debian-security-announce message
mailed Nov 21 on 25 Nov 2003 15:16:56 -0800.


> > debian-announce had one message on the 21st, five days ago, saying for
> > more information, see www.debian.org.
> 
> You'll find the same information linked on the front-page.  Since the
> web infrastructure was affected as well, but you already knew that
> since it was mentioned in the announcement, it was not that easy
> updating the web server.  However, after a day we finally managed to
> do that.
> 
> > Nothing special there, so I checked http://www.debian.org/security/,
> > same problem.
> 
> As you know http://www.debian.org/security/ if for security
> announcements regarding the packages Debian distributes.  It has
> nothing to do with the security on the Debian machines.  Hence, it's
> the wrong place.

First I want to say that the Debian project, in extremely adverse
circumnstances, comported itself well, disseminated information, if not
fully effectively, well beyond its nominal capacity with both web and
email services offline.  Disclosures were timely, informative, and
helpful, while restraining themselves to established facts and working
within constraints of an as yet ongoing investigation.   Very few
organizations can claim as much.  Not only this, but it appears at this
point that the crown jewels -- the Debian archives and mirrored
distribution points themselves -- were _not_ compromised.  Commendable.

Some bits could be improved, which is what I'm focusing on below.



I'll disagree with Martin's comment that the server compromise didn't
constitute a security issue despite the lack of an archive compromise.
For someone well versed in Debian procedures, it might have been
plausible that the archives themselves weren't compromised.  For a
typical user, I don't think this was the case.  For the typical user's
management or clients, it's very likely _not_ the case, and a timely
positive statement of status would be very, very helpful.

Security affecting Debian servers _potentially_ affects Debian packages.
As it was, I cleared my locale package cache and stopped updates on
hearing about the compromise.  It wasn't for another few hours that I
was aware that the archive was reportedly _not_ compromised.

In the absense of any information, the security status of Debian project
packages in the event of a known or rumored server compromise is at best
unknown.



Communications in an emergency sitation is paramount, and a number of
people clearly _didn't_ get informed through back channels.  I myself
was _on_ IRC as word started leaking out, and still wasn't fully certain
of what was going on or what to trust.  Wichert's website (which I only
learned was his the 27th!) was very helpful, as was the coverage
provided by Slashdot and elsewhere.

Discussion this with Manoj on IRC, my suggestion as summarized by him is
that Debian should have an emergency response plan, part of which is a
communications policy in the event a similar future compromise or
systems failure.  Specifically:


  - Triggering events.  There are thresholds below which notifications
needn't be triggered, and above which they very much should.
Suggested:  any event significantly affecting perceptions of
security of the Debian archives or servers.  Any outage of mail,
web, or archive services anticipated to last beyond  .  E.g.:  6-12 hours, across core servers (but not mirrors).
Any core server root compromise.  *Not* single-package issues.
Nuclear war or asteroid strike:  you're on your own.


  - Where to provide information.  Personal websites and news channels
served well, but an advance statement of "here's where you should
turn in the event of an emergency" would be useful.


  - What information to provide.  
  
Specifically, 

- the known (or unknown) status of archive or package compromise.
- diagnostic checks; and/or
- cleanup procedures.  

Wichert's pages on this would be a good template.  

By "known (or unkown)", I mean:  if the archives are reasonably
known to be safe, or are known to be compromised, this is
communicated.  If an assessment cannot be made with confidence,
_that_ fact should be stated, e.g.:  "the current security of the
archives is unknown".  

By diagnostics and cleanup:  pointers to tools or documentation
explaining how to assess and/or secure a system.  Wipe and rebuild
if necessary.  Again, wiggy.net