Re: Question on installing packages and upgrading
On 20 Feb 2000, John Hasler wrote: Apt is smart enough to resume where it left off. It would be nice if it could restart from the beginning if the connection is down during the downloading. Oki
Re: Question on installing packages and upgrading
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hilliard) wrote: Another option is to get a CD of the unstable distribution. While no commercial distributors offer silver CDs of unstable, there are a number of Debian developers (some listed on the web page) who will burn gold CDs to order. This will cost more than a mass-produced slver CD, but it is not exorbitant. Thanks for the suggestion. Well, as I have already a mandrake CD here, which costed me nothing... I'll think about that. I guess the money for postage would be more than the price of the CD. Wouldn't it be nice to have the possibility to download these CDs as CD images? Like the two official Debian CDs which I got by this way. I guess that many people have the opportunity to use a fast internet connection for downloading, but would not like to do this at home. Phone costs may be cheap in the USA, but in Germany I would not want to be online for days. Alex -- Alex Schuster [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Key available [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question on installing packages and upgrading
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Randy Edwards) wrote: But how do I, for example, install a newer version of windowmaker or netscape? There are several .deb packages, and I don't know which of them to use. Just use dselect, browse through the various descriptions of the *.deb files. But how do I tell dselect where these .deb files are? I have them on my harddisk, not on a Debian CD. To me it looks like dselect always wants a complete Debian file tree. Another problem: my Debian stable is so outdated. New packages for wmaker etc. usually need newer versions of other packages. If you read up on apt-get (man apt-get) you can use that to solve the various dependency problems when upgrading. Yes, this is a problem, but with that said, potato will be released real soon now and this is the right way of solving this particular issue. I begin to like apt-get. I used it to update some packages, and it worked well. This is really cool. If only my internet connection was better... I like the Debian philosophy, but I also see that s many things don't work well/correctly/at all. I don't know if I'd term it that way. If you install a stable-only system, it works, and works extremely well. Ditto for potato (though, of course, it's still unstable). The problems come from mixing and matching slink and potato -- two different versions. That isn't officially supposed to be done; there's an upgrade procedure, but mixing isn't part of the plan. So it's not surprising that things don't work smoothly when mixing two different versions. Right. Looks like my main problem is than potato isn't released yet. At the moment I'm still thinking about moving to Mandrake. I have done some things with it (it's installed under VMware), and nearly everything worked. While with Debian I often encounter some problems. For example, yesterday I tried encode some MP3s. I downloaded the LAME source, entered make, and it didn't work. I removed QTK support, and it still didn't compile because of a missing libtermcap. So I looked at the Debian ftp site, only found a termcap-compat package, but that did not help. And once more I have no clue what to do. I tried the same in Mandrake. It didn't compile either, because it is missing a termcap.h. I got this file from Debian, and with it everything is fine, it compiled. GTK support also worked. It's just a bit silly to simulate a whole PC running Mandrake for encoding music, isn't it. I want to start working with my system, and I see that many things don't work well, like playing .mp3 files, or viewing mpeg animations. Or power management. I read some docs about it, didn't understand much, and skipped this for now. But in Mandrake it's already there, without me having to do anything about it. Of course I have not done as much in Mandrake as in Debian, I'm sure that also Mandrake has its problems. But I really was impressed how easy the installation was, and what things are already configured. In Debian it took me some time to do the basic configuration, like compiling new kernels etc. Or getting Netscape to work. (Whose idea was it to put mozilla onto the Debian CDs? I think this is the worst Linux program I ever encountered.) To draw an analogy to the DOS world, what would happen if you were to take a Win95 machine and start mixing Win98 components and *.DLLs into that system? You'd have a nightmare on your hands. While slink and potato play pretty well together when mixed, it's analogous to the same idea as Win95/Win98. Okay :) On the other hand, installing Windows software usually only needs a double click on Setup.exe... Alex -- Alex Schuster [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Key available [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question on installing packages and upgrading
On Sat, Feb 19, 2000 at 07:30:00PM +0100, Alex Schuster wrote: . . . But it wants a whole debian tree, not just some additional packages. I can install the packages manually, but this involves a lot of dpkg -I or checking the dependencies first. . . . . . . New packages for wmaker etc. usually need newer versions of other packages. And these need other new stuff, and so on. I like the Debian philosophy, but I also see that s many things don't work well/correctly/at all. And I always always run into some problem when installing new stuff, like having to download many other stuff, or some other programs refuse to work after that. I need newer windowmanagers, newer CDburning software, MP3 encoding software, and much more. Lots of stuff to download, and probably that's not enough, because of my outdated libraries. . . . So, what would I need to do to get an up to date system? Without being online for days (which costs some money here). Or is potato finished very soon? To answer your question: if you're in a big hurry, you could install apt on your slink system. Potato should be released in some weeks, and potato+apt will solve all the problems you refer to. I personally have been using potato for months now with only a few problems, so upgrading to potato early wouldn't be a terrible idea. The Debian folks I spoke to at LinuxWorld Expo say that the new releases after potato should come much closer together. -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] I-Con's Science and Technology Guest of Honor in 2000 will be Geoffrey A. Landis. See http://www.iconsf.org for I-Con information.
Re: Question on installing packages and upgrading
Le 2000-02-19 19:30:00 +0100, Alex Schuster écrivait : I am using Debian stable for some weeks now, but there still are so many things I don't really understand, for example the installation of debian packages. I know how to use dselect, and I can also use dpkg. But how do I, for example, install a newer version of windowmaker or netscape? There are several .deb packages, and I don't know which of them to use. Sometimes a packages.gz is also there. Can I do something with it, like showing it to dselect, so I can use this tool for installing? But it wants a whole debian tree, not just some additional packages. I can install the packages manually, but this involves a lot of dpkg -I or checking the dependencies first. You should install apt, and set up dselect to use the apt method. Apt is able to download just the packages that are necessary to install the packages you want. (And apt will tell you how much data you need to download). Another problem: my Debian stable is so outdated. New packages for wmaker etc. usually need newer versions of other packages. And these need other new stuff, and so on. For example, I wanted to install xmms, an mp3 player, and got it from the frozen packages. It needed some newer libraries, which I got after some downloading. Now, xmms is running, but much some software (e.g. xaos) doesn't run any more. XMMS, as most of the Potato, depends on libc6 2.1. Slink packages depends on libc6 2.0. Installing the XMMS from Potato requires upgrading libc6 to 2.1. Which will require you to upgrade most of your packages to Potato. I believe you should either move back to Slink, or upgrade to Potato (which I wouldn't advise you to do for the moment). The intermediate position (Slink + libc6 2.1) really causes too much problems (too many thinks will not work). Also, dselect complains about dependency problems, and I always have to override its suggestins by Shift-Q in order to complete selections. I know some of the missing libraries, but I don't dare to start downloading them, because who knows whcih other stuff they will need. This is the dependency side of the libc6 problem. You will end up downloading the entire Potato. I like the Debian philosophy, but I also see that s many things don't work well/correctly/at all. And I always always run into some problem when installing new stuff, like having to download many other stuff, or some other programs refuse to work after that. I need newer windowmanagers, newer CDburning software, MP3 encoding software, and much more. Lots of stuff to download, and probably that's not enough, because of my outdated libraries. There are 2 sides to your question : * Slink does not include the latest version of the various software you may use. This is more or less due to the way Debian works. Prior to being released, Debian take the time to fix most of the bugs in the existing packages, and does not allow upgrades to new version, except pure bug fixes. (The so-called freeze). Once This is over, the new version of the distribution is released. It is more reliable, but has less up-to-date. Also, for the moment, the time between to release tend to be quite long (6 months+), which, for some not yet mature software, is very long. * Installing libc6 2.1 is likely to have broken a lot of things. This probably explains the numbers of things that do not work. So, what would I need to do to get an up to date system? Without being online for days (which costs some money here). Or is potato finished very soon? Potato should be finished soon enough. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting... If you have access to a high speed internet connexion, you can try to download Potato. It should be usable, but still, a lot of things need to be fixed. Sorry for the bashing on Debian here. Of course it is not fair to compare a brand-new distribution like Mandrake to Debian stable which is quite old now. But I see that with Mandrake I could easily start doing all the stuff I want to do, while here in Debian I am still at the point of wondering how to install newer software. The nice thing in Debian is the ease of upgrading between releases, and the fact that it is a quite reliable, that it implements a good infrastructure (menus, documentation, etc.). Installing new softare from stable is easy (apt-get install packagename). But installing a new softare not in stable is more difficult. Sometimes, someone will have package the latest software you want outside the official stable distribution. Sometimes, you can just download the package from unstable/frozen. You can download and compile the source package (apt-get -b source packagename). Or, for a package not in frozen, you can alien an existing RPM package. Or download and install the source of the package you're interested in. Note that none of these option is totally failsafe. You can also choose to
Re: Question on installing packages and upgrading
But how do I, for example, install a newer version of windowmaker or netscape? There are several .deb packages, and I don't know which of them to use. Just use dselect, browse through the various descriptions of the *.deb files. If all else fails, just try it -- the worse you'll do is to remove a file and install something you don't want. Now, that sounds serious, doesn't it?! But remember, in the case of Netscape or Windowmaker, all of your customized settings are in your home directory -- therefore, for example, your Netscape bookmarks and mail settings won't be changed by simply installing a new package. Both Windowmaker and (especially) Netscape's modularity is confusing at first, but there's a method to the madness. Don't want the spell check? Good, don't install it. Don't want the help files -- ditto! Generally, for Netscape folks will install the latest version of the statically-linked Communicator and everything else that dselect will suggest. Another problem: my Debian stable is so outdated. New packages for wmaker etc. usually need newer versions of other packages. If you read up on apt-get (man apt-get) you can use that to solve the various dependency problems when upgrading. Yes, this is a problem, but with that said, potato will be released real soon now and this is the right way of solving this particular issue. I like the Debian philosophy, but I also see that s many things don't work well/correctly/at all. I don't know if I'd term it that way. If you install a stable-only system, it works, and works extremely well. Ditto for potato (though, of course, it's still unstable). The problems come from mixing and matching slink and potato -- two different versions. That isn't officially supposed to be done; there's an upgrade procedure, but mixing isn't part of the plan. So it's not surprising that things don't work smoothly when mixing two different versions. To draw an analogy to the DOS world, what would happen if you were to take a Win95 machine and start mixing Win98 components and *.DLLs into that system? You'd have a nightmare on your hands. While slink and potato play pretty well together when mixed, it's analogous to the same idea as Win95/Win98. Sorry for the bashing on Debian here. Of course it is not fair to compare a brand-new distribution like Mandrake to Debian stable which is quite old now. Exactly. My advice would be to A) read up on apt-get and use it to install potato packages into your system, B) hold your breath and stick with slink until potato is released, or C) just do a full upgrade now to running the potato release. IMHO, I'd prefer C, but A is also doable if you don't want to try a full upgrade. -- Regards, | Microsoft: Buying up some other company's good idea .| today, so they can sell it as an innovation tomorrow. Randy|
Re: Question on installing packages and upgrading
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Carl Fink) wrote: On Sat, Feb 19, 2000 at 07:30:00PM +0100, Alex Schuster wrote: So, what would I need to do to get an up to date system? Without being online for days (which costs some money here). Or is potato finished very soon? To answer your question: if you're in a big hurry, you could install apt on your slink system. Potato should be released in some weeks, and potato+apt will solve all the problems you refer to. apt is already installed. I personally have been using potato for months now with only a few problems, so upgrading to potato early wouldn't be a terrible idea. But how would one do this? Go online, enter apt-get dist-upgrade, and wait for well, a too long time. I can download 10 MB per hour, maybe 20 if I manage to get ISDN to work. Downloading a whole distrinution via apt would take days, and I do not want to be online for such a long time. I wouldn't work anyway, because the phone would not hold for such a long time without dropping the carrier. And it's too expensive. So, are there other options? I guess I could download the whole potato tree of the ftp server (the connection at work is fast), put it onto some CDs, extract the tree to my harddisk, and use apt to upgrade. So I guess I would have to wait for potato being stable, and then get a new CD image. Or switch to Mandrake... duck Alex -- Alex Schuster [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Key available [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question on installing packages and upgrading
Alex Schuster writes: But how would one do this? Go online, enter apt-get dist-upgrade, and wait for well, a too long time. You don't have to upgrade everything at once. Just do 'apt-get update' and then use 'apt-get install package' to upgrade what you need. Apt will take care of any dependencies (pay attention to the messages, though!). I wouldn't work anyway, because the phone would not hold for such a long time without dropping the carrier. Apt is smart enough to resume where it left off. You could also buy a set of CDs, of course. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI
Re: Question on installing packages and upgrading
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Schuster) writes: So, are there other options? I guess I could download the whole potato tree of the ftp server (the connection at work is fast), put it onto some CDs, extract the tree to my harddisk, and use apt to upgrade. Another option is to get a CD of the unstable distribution. While no commercial distributors offer silver CDs of unstable, there are a number of Debian developers (some listed on the web page) who will burn gold CDs to order. This will cost more than a mass-produced slver CD, but it is not exorbitant. Bob -- _ |_) _ |_ Robert D. Hilliard[EMAIL PROTECTED] |_) (_) |_) Palm City, FL USAPGP Key ID: A8E40EB9
Re: Question on installing packages and upgrading
apt is already installed. Then dependencies should be met automatically. If they aren't, you should perhaps submit a bug against apt. I personally have been using potato for months now with only a few problems, so upgrading to potato early wouldn't be a terrible idea. But how would one do this? Go online, enter apt-get dist-upgrade, and wait for well, a too long time. I can download 10 MB per hour, maybe 20 if I manage to get ISDN to work. Downloading a whole distrinution via apt would take days But you don't download the whole distribution, just the packages you actually have installed. I dist-upgraded to potato over 56K modem, and it took like six hours. and I do not want to be online for such a long time. I wouldn't work anyway, because the phone would not hold for such a long time without dropping the carrier. And it's too expensive. That's a separate problem, of course. So, are there other options? I guess I could download the whole potato tree of the ftp server (the connection at work is fast), put it onto some CDs, extract the tree to my harddisk, and use apt to upgrade. Or you could download the two ISO images for the Debian CDs and use the apt-cdrom method to install. So I guess I would have to wait for potato being stable, and then get a new CD image. Not necessarily a bad idea. Or switch to Mandrake... duck If you find it the best choice for you, go for it. -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] I-Con's Science and Technology Guest of Honor in 2000 will be Geoffrey A. Landis. See http://www.iconsf.org for I-Con information.
