Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Nah, be reasonable - 's gotta be ed. You can't use vi on a teleprinter. vi -e works perfectly for me on my Highspeed Hasler SP20 ASR. This device can not only 50 and 75 Bauds but also 100 Baud - and vi still works flawlessly :-) - Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Lindsay Yardley wrote: G'day Alex, I found the installer great but while I'm new to linux I've been using PC's since about 1982. It would probably be very helpful to the developers if you could be more specific about the information you think is lacking. Yes, I agree that the installer (per se) is great if you know beforehand the specific information that you must supply. It's not enough to know what hardware is in your computer. You must make critical configuration decisions at the spur of the moment. If you had prior knowledge of the configuration decisions you must make, wouldn't this improve your chances at doing it right? It's been quite a while since I installed Debian so I can't give specific examples of the problem areas but I remember the frustrations of not knowing how I was supposed to respond. I do remember something about 'repository'-- I had no idea what to do about this. The accompanying 'help' didn't really help. There were several situations like this. It wouldn't be so bad if you could take time out to do a web search for information. Just think how nice it would be if you had a document that you could refer to for infomation. Did you read the installation howto? http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/install cheers, Lindsay Yes, more than once. I printed it out and had it alongside me while I was installing Debian. It is an excellent Debian document but it does not discuss the specificities that must be addressed during the installation. Why not create a document that directly relates to the installation as you will experience it? The Debian user list is probably the most active list on the internet. It's loaded with problems that users experience. Could this be because of difficulties caused by improper installation? Could something be lacking in the installation instructions? | The debian installation process is loaded with surprises | that forces the inexperienced to make | critical decisions that can make or break the installation. | If there was documentation that | describes what to expect and the options, it should improve | the chances of a good installation. | Current installation documentation doesn't provide that | kind of information. | | The help that's provided during the installation helps a | little but if more detailed information | is available before starting the installation, that help | wouldn't be needed and the installation | could be mapped out beforehand with a better chance at success. | | | alex --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.467 / Virus Database: 266 - Release Date: 1/04/2003 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Scott C. Linnenbringer wrote: On Monday 24 March 2003 10:06 am, Larry wrote: I don't condone the outburst, and am not fully tuned in on this incident. I must say, however, that compared to a number of other systems I've worked with, Debian is difficult to get installed and configured. I suspect the poor fellow was ready to tear his hair out (assuming he had some hair). The 'poor' fellow shouldn't be using Debian to begin. Debian is an operating system for hobbyists and technically literate individuals who want a powerful and complete system, and a free one at that. It's not for one who gets frustrated easily; It wasn't designed for that. If I wanted a system that was simple, did everything I want, but had to sacrifice performance, power, enjoyment, et cetera, then I'd run Windows. Thus, I run Debian! On the other hand, I've found the system to function extrememly well, and be marvilously stable. Sid isn't the same way, as it takes some unborking to get working. But it's fun and I learn quite a bit, so it's worth it. Stable doesn't break when you finally get it working, but it can still be difficult for Joe (no offense to the people named Joe) Doofus to set up. Linux is, and forever will be, an operating system for the technically literate and those who want to be technically literate. Once installed, it is easy to upgrade and install applications on. So the big hump, unfortunately, is at the very beginning. Simply put, if you get frustrated easily, then you shouldn't be using Linux. Is that the way it is supposed to be? If it is too easy to install, the system can't be much good, right? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Mr. Baldwin wrote: I think that what most people who clammer for a GUI installer really want is a more easy-to-accomplish installation, not necessarily a graphics-based installation. Of course, I could be wrong. YES That's me. I don't need an X based installer -- just one that can take some of the frustration out of installing. I second that. Is debain's installer hard for a first time installer? yes it is. Is debain's installer that hard that it's not useable? No, it's not. I don't need a graphical installer, necessarily, but at least something a bit less indecipherable. I have only a year of linux experience at all and am no expert. I didn;t know how to respond to many of the queries posed during installation. tony Just think how much easier it would be if you had a document at hand that addresses each step of the installation, regardless of which configuration you intend to follow. Isn't it better to have some knowledge of what you're getting into before starting down a path that's loaded with stumbling blocks or dead ends? I'm not referring to the hardware aspect. Of course, you should know what hardware you have regardless of which operating system you're installing. The hardware can often be taken care of after Debian is installed if the system software is installed properly. It's the decisions about software configuration that are sometimes difficult. It's a matter of semantics--you interpret some instruction your way when something else is intended. Can someone explain why it's better or at least no worse if you start an installation without knowing what questions will be asked and what responses must be made to configure the system the way you want? --- School-library.net Read, Connect, Learn! _ Get 25MB, POP3, Spam Filtering with LYCOS MAIL PLUS for $19.95/year. http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plusref=lmtplus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Fri, 2003-04-04 at 12:10, alex wrote: Is that the way it is supposed to be? If it is too easy to install, the system can't be much good, right? :-) Right on! None of this sissy GUI stuff for me! I want a *man's* distro: nothing but fdisk and tar and vi! /:-) -- Glenn English [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Fri, Apr 04, 2003 at 01:26:17PM -0700, Glenn English wrote: On Fri, 2003-04-04 at 12:10, alex wrote: Is that the way it is supposed to be? If it is too easy to install, the system can't be much good, right? :-) Right on! None of this sissy GUI stuff for me! I want a *man's* distro: nothing but fdisk and tar and vi! /:-) Nah, be reasonable - 's gotta be ed. You can't use vi on a teleprinter. Pigeon -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
The debian installation process is loaded with surprises that forces the inexperienced to make critical decisions that can make or break the installation. If there was documentation that describes what to expect and the options, it should improve the chances of a good installation. Current installation documentation doesn't provide that kind of information. The help that's provided during the installation helps a little but if more detailed information is available before starting the installation, that help wouldn't be needed and the installation could be mapped out beforehand with a better chance at success. alex -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
G'day Alex, I found the installer great but while I'm new to linux I've been using PC's since about 1982. It would probably be very helpful to the developers if you could be more specific about the information you think is lacking. Did you read the installation howto? http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/install cheers, Lindsay | The debian installation process is loaded with surprises | that forces the inexperienced to make | critical decisions that can make or break the installation. | If there was documentation that | describes what to expect and the options, it should improve | the chances of a good installation. | Current installation documentation doesn't provide that | kind of information. | | The help that's provided during the installation helps a | little but if more detailed information | is available before starting the installation, that help | wouldn't be needed and the installation | could be mapped out beforehand with a better chance at success. | | | alex --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.467 / Virus Database: 266 - Release Date: 1/04/2003 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Greetings Alex alex wrote: The debian installation process is loaded with surprises that forces the inexperienced to make critical decisions that can make or break the installation. If there was documentation that describes what to expect and the options, it should improve the chances of a good installation. Current installation documentation doesn't provide that kind of information. The help that's provided during the installation helps a little but if more detailed information is available before starting the installation, that help wouldn't be needed and the installation could be mapped out beforehand with a better chance at success. alex Personally I found that starting with Mandrake was good - the install of 8.0 gave me headaches configuring X11xxx but the handbook that came with the disks was OK to get the learning curves smoothed out. Debian install came next, using net install and two floppies. The HOWTO was printed out and read several times, as well as the references to apt and dselect. That done, I found the install pretty smooth. X gave me problems again - I still do not know which mouse I have, but PS/2 seems to work. Trial and error took 2 evenings to get the screen working. sigh Just like Mandrake. Brian -- Brian F. Walker Registered Linux User 270078 Debian GNU/Linux -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:59:35 +1000 Lindsay Yardley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G'day Alex, I found the installer great but while I'm new to linux I've been using PC's since about 1982. It would probably be very helpful to the developers if you could be more specific about the information you think is lacking. That would be fighting the last war, since Woody was the last gasp of the boot-floppies installer. Anyone who has the time can try the new installer and offer comments about it, and their effort will probably bear more fruit. Kevin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
| G'day Alex, | I found the installer great but while I'm new to linux | I've been using | PC's since about 1982. It would probably be very helpful to the | developers if you could be more specific about the information you | think is lacking. | | That would be fighting the last war, since Woody was the last gasp of | the boot-floppies installer. | | Anyone who has the time can try the new installer and offer comments | about it, and their effort will probably bear more fruit. | | Kevin Good point, doh. Lindsay --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.467 / Virus Database: 266 - Release Date: 1/04/2003 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Sat, Mar 29, 2003 at 12:43:06AM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: On the other hand, and it's been said in this thread before (by me and others), you make it clear you want to tell people what they want/need and expect them to accept your decisions and like what you give them. Oh, come on... give it a rest. The only thing I can assume is that you deliberately misunderstand. I have nothing against listening to users. To return to my earlier example, if the designers I support say they need software package X, then assuming they can justify it and we can afford it, we get it for them. That doesn't mean I let them decide how it will be installed. How are they any less empowered? They have skills I don't, and I have skills they don't. I don't push in where *I* don't know, and in return I expect the same. And I certainly don't take the position that they have to learn everything there is to know about keeping a PC or a Mac running in order to do *their* job. -- Marc Wilson | Always draw your curves, then plot your reading. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
In linux.debian.user, you wrote: On Wednesday 26 March 2003 11:17 pm, Marc Wilson wrote: On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 06:02:33PM -0500, Roberto Sanchez wrote: True. Perhaps it would have been better stated by saying that every distro that wants to cater to Desktop users needs to implement a GUI installer (and many other GUI tools). Why? The *user* has zero business installing the box. Yes, Joe Moron benefits from having GUI tools, because they mean he doesn't have to think, but it matters not for the installer. Are you always so condescending to people who don't know what you know? Perhaps it's not Joe Moron installing his box -- maybe it's someone with a PhD in Physics who is so busy with his work on quantam mechanics he doesn't have time to learn computers. Or maybe it's an MD. You will be quite surprised at the amount of Physics PhD (and astrophysicists in particular) who were with linux way back in 1992! :) I feel humbled that I only got into in '98! -- TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/ I'm sorry, but all questions must be in the form of a question. -- pieceoftheuniverse -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 12:38:27AM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Wednesday 26 March 2003 11:17 pm, Marc Wilson wrote: Why? The *user* has zero business installing the box. Yes, Joe Moron benefits from having GUI tools, because they mean he doesn't have to think, but it matters not for the installer. Are you always so condescending to people who don't know what you know? Perhaps it's not Joe Moron installing his box -- maybe it's someone with a PhD in Physics who is so busy with his work on quantam mechanics he doesn't have time to learn computers. Or maybe it's an MD. Exactly. He has better things to do. That's what being a professional is all about. I don't claim to have a PhD in Physics, nor do I claim to be a doctor, and I'm not expected to be able to fit into either of those. Why do *we* foster an idea that these people need to know how to build and administer a computer? -- Marc Wilson | You are always busy. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Saturday 29 March 2003 12:04 am, Marc Wilson wrote: On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 12:38:27AM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Wednesday 26 March 2003 11:17 pm, Marc Wilson wrote: Why? The *user* has zero business installing the box. Yes, Joe Moron benefits from having GUI tools, because they mean he doesn't have to think, but it matters not for the installer. Are you always so condescending to people who don't know what you know? Perhaps it's not Joe Moron installing his box -- maybe it's someone with a PhD in Physics who is so busy with his work on quantam mechanics he doesn't have time to learn computers. Or maybe it's an MD. Exactly. He has better things to do. That's what being a professional is all about. I don't claim to have a PhD in Physics, nor do I claim to be a doctor, and I'm not expected to be able to fit into either of those. Why do *we* foster an idea that these people need to know how to build and administer a computer? Under something like a Debian install (as it is now), yes, but under an install like Lindows, Mandrake, or Lycoris, no. It also allows them the CHOICE to say, I want this system or that system, or I want to customize it as much as I can. From your earlier statements, you have talked about users doing what YOU (or WE) want them to do. In other words, the technical computer people making the choice for the real world users. There was an article (don't remember the link or title, but it was on Slashdot, so it shouldn't be hard to search for) about how relationships between developers and users are getting worse because developers are too busy telling users what they need and how to do things, rather than listening to users and finding out what they want and need. I believe in giving people choice and empowring them. It's clear from your statements (and you've all but said this directly in earlier posts), that you believe in developers making the decisions and giving the end result to the users. Personally, as a user/developper, I don't trust anyone else to make those decisions for me. I know one thing my clients love about what I do with them is that I listen to what they want and provide them with the type of system (here I'm not referring to a box, but to the over all set of programs and service I provide) that they can easily and quickly taylor to what they want. I know developpers hate dealing with the UI and hate all the extra work user-friendlieness requires, but, to be honest, that's why, within the next month, my monthly fee to a client will be 4 times the fee charged by my nearest competitor. That's why my clients are willing to pay that fee -- because I listen, I give them the choice and empower them. While they aren't administering a box, they can set up my system on their own and make all the decisions about what they want to do on their own. On the other hand, and it's been said in this thread before (by me and others), you make it clear you want to tell people what they want/need and expect them to accept your decisions and like what you give them. There is a company that has done quite well with this We know best big-brother attitude and I'm sure you'd fit right in, since your philosophy meshes with theirs quite nicely. They're known as Microsoft. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 23:43, Hal Vaughan wrote: --snip-- From your earlier statements, you have talked about users doing what YOU (or WE) want them to do. In other words, the technical computer people making the choice for the real world users. There was an article (don't remember the link or title, but it was on Slashdot, so it shouldn't be hard to search for) about how relationships between developers and users are getting worse because developers are too busy telling users what they need and how to do things, rather than listening to users and finding out what they want and need. I believe in giving people choice and empowring them. It's clear from your statements (and you've all but said this directly in earlier posts), that you believe in developers making the decisions and giving the end result to the users. Personally, as a user/developper, I don't trust anyone else to make those decisions for me. I know one thing my clients love about what I do with them is that I listen to what they want and provide them with the type of system (here I'm not referring to a box, but to the over all set of programs and service I provide) that they can easily and quickly taylor to what they want. I know developpers hate dealing with the UI and hate all the extra work user-friendlieness requires, but, to be honest, that's why, within the next month, my monthly fee to a client will be 4 times the fee charged by my nearest competitor. That's why my clients are willing to pay that fee -- because I listen, I give them the choice and empower them. While they aren't administering a box, they can set up my system on their own and make all the decisions about what they want to do on their own. On the other hand, and it's been said in this thread before (by me and others), you make it clear you want to tell people what they want/need and expect them to accept your decisions and like what you give them. I think it's important to make one major distinction here, and that's the difference between writing software as a job, and writing software because you want to. If I get up in the morning, talk to a client, and that client wants a mail client that automatically attaches and/or executes viruses, turns off line wrapping, and formats all messages in useless HTML, then that's exactly what my client will get. (I'll download a copy of Outlook Express, change the name and give it to him... ;) HOWEVER, if I go home at night and I want my computer to beep at me every time I type the letter U, I'm going to write that program the way that _I WANT_. I'm going to TELL my users what they want, because those users are ME. The fact that I'm making my program publically available doesn't mean the program is suddently not for me anymore. The wonderful thing with Linux is that it's written by people who want to scratch an itch. Every part of it is written because someone wants a particular thing, so they write a program to do it. And, generally speaking, they're nice enough to include configuration options for just about everything imaginable in the process. HOWEVER, just because they CHOOSE to be nice to users by letting them configure the program does NOT mean that the programmers should cater to a user's every whim. This is not to say that Debian should or should not have a graphical installer. This is to say that DEVELOPERS will and should decide if there is a graphical installer or not. If a developer decides that there should be a graphical installer because users demand it, that _DOES NOT MEAN_ that we're getting a graphical installer because users demand it. It means that we're getting a graphical installer because the DEVELOPER DECIDED TO WRITE IT. I apologize if any of the above sounded like a flame, as it was most certainly not intended that way. I just tend to make very liberal use of emphasis with my points. :) -- Alex Malinovich Support Free Software, delete your Windows partition TODAY! Encrypted mail preferred. You can get my public key from any of the pgp.net keyservers. Key ID: A6D24837 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 01:44:33PM -0500, Hall Stevenson wrote: Can someone help me with a procmail filter so that I no longer see these ?? apt-get install dotfile-procmail - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+grhMJ5vLSqVpK2kRAnJRAJwJSGGSpKYWtHTy7ChhKY8tCj5ktACePMLa WMuMKGr+Te0hnwf7s/9LAck= =RSiY -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 02:50:35PM +, Pigeon wrote: (strange synapses fire) Can you boot Knoppix on a PS1? Strict answer: Yes. Reparsing the question for more meaning: No, unless you're intimately familiar with PS1 hardware and have the tools and ability to port it. Good luck! - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+grpvJ5vLSqVpK2kRAl6cAJ97iqzrpJoc4O2hslSnQuQFe6qphgCeP5NE 0B4R3IYQgN595mT3eC7cvDE= =qXt0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 06:23:59AM -0800, Marc Wilson wrote: Debian strives for technical excellence. So supposedly, adding a GUI to the installer improves things somehow? Better press? - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+gtIDJ5vLSqVpK2kRAqN0AJwI98TRJYKAIOitbE5Zr5SHVG9jbgCgyUmb sQLzCOKVHEGA/zlzqT1V7dg= =7hoE -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 08:22:36AM -0800, deFreese, Barry wrote: BTW, the couchf**k thing was killing me. I have a joke that I have to send you. Let me know if you don't mind me e-mailing you directly! It was definately busting folks sides when I was telling that story back at Conifur '01 (http://www.conifur.org/) a month after it happened. The sad thing is, I just realized I haven't had a vacation since then... - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+guiGJ5vLSqVpK2kRAiKQAJ0SKKUpUGXk9vdotghYc2i/BzLF1QCgtLXl AvhmR1a/4GcmCEZQAqQizSA= =SSRt -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 06:02:33PM -0500, Roberto Sanchez wrote: Additionally, I would love to see Debian be at the forefront of the push to kill windoze. You've gotta be having the time of your life, then. Various polls I've seen seem to indicate that Debian has been the most popular server distro for quite some time, and overtook Mandrake a couple months back as most popular desktop distro. All this despite lack of hardware detection and idiot-friendly partitioning (both of which are my only two real gripes about boot-floppies, BTW...Red Hat went nearly 6 major versions before they had a GUI installer and they were turning a profit off it. GUI is not necissary for installation...it may be handy but it's not required. If debian-installer is one of the things holding up Sarge, I suggest boot-floppies gets one last cruftover to add options for automagically partitioning the drive and detecting hardware to speed up Sarge's release a bit). I think that this is really important because IMHO Debian represents the best of free software. Philosophy appears to be what's winning the war UnitedLinux thought it was going to win, and accidentally achieving UL's goals. Except our approach is better: We aren't vendor backed, despite many vendors supplying thier customers with Debian. And the people making Debian are the people using Debian and generally DDs have a receptive ear to the community[1]. Your argument could just as easily be applied to a commercial windoze product like Zone Alarm. In the case of Zone Alarm, though, I can't download and look at the source even if I wanted to. At least with firestarter I can, or at least do 'iptables -nvL' 8-) I regularly tell Windows users this when they say Oh, I'm safe, I have $PERSONAL_FIREW^H^H^H^H^HSNAKEOIL installed. [1] Except for the misbehaving ones that build pacakges depending on packages not yet in Debian and tell people not to file bug reports about this, or expect you to be a part of the upstream package's community or equally unreasable and trollish behaviour. - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+gu5oJ5vLSqVpK2kRAkp2AKDEJTyynEr8Old0/bTniIYHVTtDpgCfUZmR WKsgS9khvkq/Y2F9uISBAu0= =QpFz -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 12:38:27AM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: If Henry Ford had your attitude, autos would have never been for more than mechanics. With over five times as many people being killed by autos in the US per year as died in the terrorist attacks back in '01, not to mention the pollution, noise, and roughly 50% of livable space in cities being sacraficed to the transporatation and storage of autos, I think the would might have been a better place had Ford had this attitude. I personally was in a head-on accident in Chico, California when I was very little, and I've been in six other accidents since then (I wasn't the one driving in any of them, they've usually been some idiot driving under the front of the bus I've been on). Working in a children's hospital, I've watched five kids die from auto related injuries in the last year and there's two more fighting for thier lives right now here. I think you picked the worst imaginable metaphor possible to get your point across... - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+gvCrJ5vLSqVpK2kRAsjWAKCp8ETwv9YgZXu3/C+usRCjUxJZ9ACfUCjX s8RuSbJMoGHDOiyFVOSjQoM= =/t9C -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Marc Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 06:02:33PM -0500, Roberto Sanchez wrote: True. Perhaps it would have been better stated by saying that every distro that wants to cater to Desktop users needs to implement a GUI installer (and many other GUI tools). Why? The *user* has zero business installing the box. Yes, Joe Moron benefits from having GUI tools, because they mean he doesn't have to think, but it matters not for the installer. Well, having administered many flavors of Unix boxes, I have to say I miss the Digital Unix (or whatever they called it around 4.0 coming out) graphical disk partitioning tool. A lot of the time, it's just easier to be able to adjust partition sizes with a slider than to reduce a partition by some amount so you can make another bigger. And before they had the graphical one, I used ed to edit... whatever file disklabel read to install the disk label. I'm hardly a moron, but some things *are* easier with graphical tools. Point and click is more nearly random-access for selecting a few things from a long list than a curses interface (why I tend to prefer configuring my kernels with make xconfig). Reading documentation is also easier in a window system, if it can be brought up in a separate window. I'm sure there's other benefits that could accrue to even seasoned sysadmins, and if it lowers the bar for the skill required to install debian, this is a bad thing because? I'm not for simplemindedly glossing over details the installer actually should know and understand, but that's somewhat orthogonal to a graphical installer. -- Eric E. Moore pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Thursday 27 March 2003 07:38 am, Paul Johnson wrote: On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 12:38:27AM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: If Henry Ford had your attitude, autos would have never been for more than mechanics. With over five times as many people being killed by autos in the US per year as died in the terrorist attacks back in '01, not to mention the pollution, noise, and roughly 50% of livable space in cities being sacraficed to the transporatation and storage of autos, I think the would might have been a better place had Ford had this attitude. So you're saying autos are a Bad Thing (tm)? Hey, if you don't like autos, why do you participate in using them? If you do think we'd be better off and that autos are such a curse (no pun intended -- curse, not curses), as a Quaker, I have connections with Mennonites and Amish. I can certainly help you find a community where they use horses and buggies instead of autos. While you say (part not quoted here) that I picked the worst impossible metaphor to make my point, you seem to talk your talk but not walk your walk. If one is to take you at your word, then you take part in using autos even when you consider them bad (or you at least ride in them), and feel the world would be much better off if the automobile had never been invented. Are you really trying to make such a far reaching statement? Can you back it up? I might add that I use a bicycle for a good deal of my transportation. I don't have trouble with cars getting in my way or running me down. If you feel so strongly about cars being a bad thing, what do you do to reduce their use? Do you avoid driving and use other transportation? Yes, people get killed and maimed in auto accidents. Yes, there are careless drivers. But for your point to be valid, you would have to argue that we would be better off without them than we are with them (in which case how many lives would we lose because non-auto-accident victims never get medical attention in time because of distance -- among other things). Oh, and as a note -- I've spent most of my life working with children, as well, in psych hospitals. If you want to talk about what dangers cars are to children, I'll go call your bluff and raise what I've seen hundreds of other elements of our culture do to fsck up kids and teens. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 05:05:39PM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Thursday 27 March 2003 07:38 am, Paul Johnson wrote: With over five times as many people being killed by autos in the US per year as died in the terrorist attacks back in '01, not to mention the pollution, noise, and roughly 50% of livable space in cities being sacraficed to the transporatation and storage of autos, I think the would might have been a better place had Ford had this attitude. So you're saying autos are a Bad Thing (tm)? Hey, if you don't like autos, why do you participate in using them? [...] I might add that I use a bicycle for a good deal of my transportation. I don't have trouble with cars getting in my way or running me down. If you feel so strongly about cars being a bad thing, what do you do to reduce their use? Do you avoid driving and use other transportation? IIRC, Paul has said in the past that he gets around by bicycle virtually all the time. -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
I have but one comment, it isn't easier or harder with a graphical interface, it is different. For myself, I think in lists and never in pictures, I think text mode screens are great and graphical interfaces needless complications made by idiots solely to make my life difficult, however I recognise I am an extreme case and that there are other perfectly sane experience and technically competant sysadmins who take a diametrically opposed view. Oh and thinking about it I lied I have other comments, not every distro needs to anything of the sort, the reason why many distributions are an advantage over a single one is that they are different, maybe it would help some people if every distro that wants to cater to Desktop users implemented a GUI installer but so what? Some distributions will do so, people working on other distributions will look at these and say either Wow that's good, lets do something like that or good idea but if we did it this way it would be even better or stupid bloody waste of time what prat did that?. These people will then act according to their opinions and the users will choose. Now if we are talking a perfect installer, I vote for a single floppy that I can insert in the front of a brand new clean machine plugged into my network, answer 4 or 5 simple questions and it goes away and installs a complete system from the net over the next hour or so, that would be a text mode installer for everyone to love! Jeff -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 04:38:53PM -0600, Kirk Strauser wrote: At 2003-03-25T20:18:48Z, Frank Gevaerts [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed. Whenever a program tells me to 'press any key', I always first try shift, control and alt. Usually, the message is clearly wrong Have you found any correct programs other than, say, xev? :) No :) Shall I file bug reports ? Good question. My guess would be that they do count, but it isn't obvious at all. Answer: Fn doesn't count, but the chorded keys do. I just wanted to point out that not being able to count one's keys doesn't necessarily an idiot make. My excuse is that I was being surrounded by lots of different old keyboards without Fn keys (my laptop is currently broken), and without so-called internet keys... Actually, I somehow doubt that the keyboard model is really a big problem in the installer. I guess video chipset ,partitionning and the like are much more of a newbie problem. Hard to know though, since I don't remember having problems getting X running in the last 5 years or so (except on unsupported cards of course). Does anyone remember the howto about modelines/video timings by (iirc) ESR ? Once you study that one, X is easy. Frank -- Kirk Strauser In Googlis non est, ergo non est. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
nate wrote: Nathan E Norman said: Sorry for yelling, but this whole debian is hard to install thing drives me crazy. Call me an elite bastard, but I still feel if debian is too hard to install, you shouldn't be installing it. Mandrake et al exist for a reason. well of course there are always exceptions. Having done probably a hundred or more debian installs over nearly the past 5 years I am fairly proficient(to put it lightly) at installing debian. but still, at least in the realm of supported hardware debian isn't quite up there yet. [snip] nate I have to agree here about the hardware support. I have tried to install Gentoo a number of times, always without success in the end. IMHO they have some crippling features that they need to address. But Gentoo had one thing that impressed me a lot. And I hear that RedHat has similar capabilities. Here's what I saw when I booted the CD chunky...chunky the usual boot: prompt and kernel loading stuff. Then, before I had a chance to do anything at all on the computer, it did a device scan and reported back to me that it had found the following hardware: eepro100 network card blah-dee-blah video card with XX RAM sound something or other (I don't remember it all, but it found everything!) And then asked me if I wanted static/dhcp on the network card and went from there. The point is that the hardware was pretty much detected by the installation program and did not require me to open the case, lookup chipsets, and surf Vendor sites for information on their products. Any movement in this direction would be a great benefit to Debian. I think it would be far more important than a GUI or some other hand holding method. There are a lot of tools that detect the hardware, can't we just automate some of it to cover the 95% of the hardware automatically? It will never be perfect, but something would be better than nothing. -- Eat drink and be merry! Tommorrow you may be in Utah. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 07:04:14AM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: s/owning a computer/commanding anything more dangerous than Play-Doh/ Oooh, scathing. Wasn't going to go that far, since there's still an outside chance that he's bright when it comes to non-computer-related things. Considering his hissy fit, I'm not holding out much hope, but still not going to claim most four year olds are brighter... HTH. Not really. 8:o) Just my thoughts on this, but that's gotta be the most obnoxious sign-off ever. It seems to have become the default signoff for people whether or not they're offering help, especially among Usenet trolls. - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+gZ0iJ5vLSqVpK2kRAnj6AKCXjiz2mD0FtQwi78zBR+pq9S1AegCfSfpp q5vNKKZGnWH6HfXT7truLJ8= =uS6g -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 08:06:12AM -0800, Larry wrote: So the big hump, unfortunately, is at the very beginning. IMHO, this is the way it should be. But tech support's warped me that way, you can only hear the same stupid question 60 zillion times before it drives you crazy and you call a customer a godless couchfuck. (Yes, it did happen, no I didn't get canned for it, QA was actually amazed I didn't just refer the guy to a computer literacy class long before I got two and a half hours in and on my sixth explaination of how to right click...I don't care how patient you are, if you heard the call you'd probably agree this guy shouldn't have even bothered buying a computer to begin with, basic concepts like the mouse were totally lost on him and he actively repelled clue). - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+gZ4QJ5vLSqVpK2kRAomZAKCNyNQKRkegNe2hGJk+oENzF5EQkACgh1zd EB6AJUCHcKAvfAGftOiYMl0= =e866 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 10:55:15AM -0600, Alfredo J. Cole wrote: Mandrake copied the RH installer at the early stages. Even the RH 5 installer would be a big advancement. How hard would it be to debianize that installer? Oh, God no! I came back to Debian in my early days because the Red Hat installer has been plain insulting to one's intelligence since 5.2. And it can't even configure the damn system right. Right now when I find someone who absolutely can't get the Debian installer to work, I suggest they go hit thier local LUG up for an installfest or hold out for debian-installer to mature. - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+gZ6xJ5vLSqVpK2kRAoScAJ975Xz0X6QQk0N1awpniq5g/3YdHgCfQdkq lGmA2zM8/bDyNx2fNrUNEIY= =l7oI -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 03:07:24PM -0800, Marc Wilson wrote: Gods, whyinhell would you need X in order to install a distribution? That's just silly. That's why debian-installer will have a classic curses flavored front-end, among others. Don't want a GUI in your installer? Then don't pick it. - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+gaAaJ5vLSqVpK2kRAochAKC2n2s/0Q1l98OgGiC473ADouMxSACgwO0E FsnBGOGELWQkp8z8xXNa1CY= =SjEH -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 04:42:02AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 03:07:24PM -0800, Marc Wilson wrote: Gods, whyinhell would you need X in order to install a distribution? That's just silly. That's why debian-installer will have a classic curses flavored front-end, among others. Don't want a GUI in your installer? Then don't pick it. It's not a question of *me* not wanting a GUI. I'm asking whyinhell *anyone* would want one. What does it enhance? What's the design goal? So far the only thing I've ever seen in print is that it needs to be done because the lamers want it. Debian strives for technical excellence. So supposedly, adding a GUI to the installer improves things somehow? -- Marc Wilson | The only problem with being a man of leisure is that [EMAIL PROTECTED] | you can never stop and take a rest. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 08:13:41AM -0600, Nathan E Norman wrote: Sorry for yelling, but this whole debian is hard to install thing drives me crazy. Call me an elite bastard, but I still feel if debian is too hard to install, you shouldn't be installing it. Mandrake et al exist for a reason. Red Hat should be tried for crimes against humanity with thier RPM system. I wouldn't even wish RPM on my worst enemy, muchless someone I was trying to convert to Linux. - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+gb4HJ5vLSqVpK2kRAm4qAKCpOi2/hzEWkyO5sUeAYY9LhfubwACgh5C8 5Lm2X6n+6apQO4mFlEQ0qBo= =BWbG -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-Original Message- From: Paul Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 7:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 08:13:41AM -0600, Nathan E Norman wrote: Sorry for yelling, but this whole debian is hard to install thing drives me crazy. Call me an elite bastard, but I still feel if debian is too hard to install, you shouldn't be installing it. Mandrake et al exist for a reason. Red Hat should be tried for crimes against humanity with thier RPM system. I wouldn't even wish RPM on my worst enemy, muchless someone I was trying to convert to Linux. - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system Amen to that. I actually bought RH before I installed Debian, though I ended up installing Debian first. I had a hell of a time with RH and the RPM stuff. BTW, the couchf**k thing was killing me. I have a joke that I have to send you. Let me know if you don't mind me e-mailing you directly! Barry deFreese Technology Services Manager Nike Team Sports (949)-616-4005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technology doesn't make you less stupid; it just makes you stupid faster. Jerry Gregoire - Former CIO at Dell -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Wednesday 26 March 2003 09:23 am, Marc Wilson wrote: On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 04:42:02AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 03:07:24PM -0800, Marc Wilson wrote: Gods, whyinhell would you need X in order to install a distribution? That's just silly. That's why debian-installer will have a classic curses flavored front-end, among others. Don't want a GUI in your installer? Then don't pick it. It's not a question of *me* not wanting a GUI. I'm asking whyinhell *anyone* would want one. What does it enhance? What's the design goal? So far the only thing I've ever seen in print is that it needs to be done because the lamers want it. Debian strives for technical excellence. So supposedly, adding a GUI to the installer improves things somehow? In this thread I've seen examples of the best and worst of what I've seen on this list. I've seen people who are focused on reaching out and helping people. I've also seen people who are so busy showing much intelligence they are that, at the same time, they are showing how little smarts they have. This is an example of the latter. It's just plain dumb, elitist, and ignorant. And I'm speaking from a professional point of view -- from someone who has spent a lot of his life working with psychologists in educational situations. I've had to learn a lot about how people think and react. While some people do better with a command line interface, others do much better with an intuitive or graphical interface. It has NOTHING to do with intelligence or ability or smarts. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that different people learn and perceive in different ways. Some people learn and take in information best when everything is neat and orderly. Others do best in what may be perceived as a chaotic environment. Some deal only with facts, others work intuitively. This has been proven many times and is FACT. It's something I, as a special ed teacher working in residential treatment facilities, have had to deal with over and over in my life. If you want a pop-culture example, go out and read about the Myers-Briggs personality type test. One thing I've found is those who need information to be orderly have a tendancy to be completely intolerant of the intuitive thinkers, looking down on them, and insisting that they are not as good, since they can't do things the right way. On the other hand, studies have shown that it is the people who look for other ways that are the innovators in this world. You may like the curses interface. Good for you. Others may, for MANY reasons, prefer a more intiutive interface. That does not make them stupid or worse. It means they perceive and process information differently than you. The fact that you don't see what a GUI enhances and that you call those who need a GUI lamers does, however, show that you are stuck in your own point of view and are ignorant of the fact that others work differently. While not as dangerous or ugly as ignorance of different ethnic groups or races, it is the same -- a prejudice born out of ignorance. I'm sure you'll call this psycho-babble (I've noticed the more literally oriendted tech people do this often-- if something disproves what they say or makes them look bad, instead of dealing with it, they go into denial and find a negative label for the offending statement(s) so they can justify calling names and ignoring a different point of view), but it's fact, it's proven, and I've seen and had to deal with these different styles of perception over and over in my daily life for years. Adding a GUI installer is just as much a part of technical excellence as anything else Debian. It is jsut a different type of excellence -- a kind which, obviously, you do not understand. Just because you don't see a need for a GUI installer doesn't mean you should denigrate those who do. Sorry for the rant, but I've seen several comments like this in this thread. It is true Debian is advanced. I'd never recommend it for a Linux newbie. Someone who's only used a Windoze GUI should be trying Mandrake or Lycoris or Lindows, NOT Debian. The original poster was very much showing his inability to think or reason. It's sparked some good discussion about what is good and bad about Debian. Comments like the above, however, don't help anyone. They just say, I'm so ignorant I not only can't see why anyone would want change, but I'm going to denigrate anyone who does and who does not think and work in the way I do. Such thinkers were probably there in the early 1900's, telling Henry Ford there's no reason we need the horseless carriage, since the horse-and-buggy was good enough for them. They would have told the Wright brothers only the lazy need flight to get somewhere quickly. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Quoting Nathan E Norman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I hear and understand what you are saying about not all installs are easy; been there, done that. However, I never said (or at least, I never meant to say) that installing debian is easy. In fact, I do not care if people think installing debian is hard. What bothers me are people who _think it's hard_ because they have no clue as to what's in their box, and they whine and bitch about it and demand a new better installer that not only works no matter what but has shiny graphics and tetris and other nonsense. IOW, people who refuse to _learn_. ESR is right on about these people. I have to agree with you. I don't like the concept of spoon feeding people. Just spend a little time reading and hopefully they'll understand a little better. I had a recent problem installing woody and getting the installer to see my SCSI adapter. Usually at the beginning, I just quickly whip through the boot prompt and as alwasys, away she goes. But this time, no sda. I thought I would read a bit at the beginning, and noticed the vanilla option at boot prompt. Typed in vanilla, and boom, scsi card loaded. Read folks, read! Cheers, Mike - This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
It's not a question of *me* not wanting a GUI. I'm asking whyinhell *anyone* would want one. What does it enhance? What's the design goal? So far the only thing I've ever seen in print is that it needs to be done because the lamers want it. Debian strives for technical excellence. So supposedly, adding a GUI to the installer improves things somehow? Unfortunately, we live in a GUI point-and-click world now. If we expect to see Linux on the desktop really take off, this is something every distro will need to implement. You are right, though, that a GUI installer will add nothing in terms of functionality. But, the technical elite (if that is what you want to call them) can still use the CLI and CURSES interfaces when available. In my case, I use GUI tools just because I have only been using Linux for 6 months and haven't learned everything yet. For example, last month I got DSL but I haven't learned iptables yet. So I installed firestarter and voila. Now I am up and running until I can learn the intricacies (which I want to). But, if I decide to not learn iptables the thing still works. A GUI interface is not mutually exclusive to technical excellence. I think that Linux needs to be marketed to the average user. When more people start using it more third party apps get written and more current apps get impoved causing an overall improvement. The ultimate design goal should be overall improvement of the product. The GUI will help achieve that in a roundabout way. Roberto Sanchez _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 02:07:06PM -0500, Mark L. Kahnt wrote: ... If they can't handle that, they should stick to a Game Cube or Playstation *WITHOUT* Linux... (strange synapses fire) Can you boot Knoppix on a PS1? Pigeon -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Hal Vaughan wrote: snip While some people do better with a command line interface, others do much better with an intuitive or graphical interface. snip Some people learn and take in information best when everything is neat and orderly. snip You may like the curses interface. Good for you. Others may, for MANY reasons, prefer a more intiutive interface. Adding a GUI installer is just as much a part of technical excellence as anything else Debian. snip I can't _believe_ I'm letting myself get sucked into this thread . . . :-) I believe you may be confusing some of your terms. The opposite of GUI is not necessarily CLI, and a curses-based interface is not necessarily non-intuitive. A curses interface that says Press the ENTER key on your keyboard to install Foo is just as intuitive as Click the button below with your mouse to install Foo (in fact, some might argue that it's more intuitive, as almost everyone in the world has pushed a button at one time or another, yet millions, maybe billions, have never touched a mouse). The problem with a GUI installer on Debian is that Debian doesn't run only on i386, like some of the more popular distros. In such a situation, it's very hard to write a GUI that'll work the same and look the same on 11 or 16 (or however many) different architectures. Granted, the text-based (whether CLI or curses-based) installer needs work, but that can be accomplished without resorting to a GUI. I think that what most people who clammer for a GUI installer really want is a more easy-to-accomplish installation, not necessarily a graphics-based installation. Of course, I could be wrong. (That'd be the third time this year if I am - doh!) Kent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Wednesday 26 March 2003 03:22 pm, Kent West wrote: Hal Vaughan wrote: snip While some people do better with a command line interface, others do much better with an intuitive or graphical interface. snip Some people learn and take in information best when everything is neat and orderly. snip You may like the curses interface. Good for you. Others may, for MANY reasons, prefer a more intiutive interface. Adding a GUI installer is just as much a part of technical excellence as anything else Debian. snip I can't _believe_ I'm letting myself get sucked into this thread . . . :-) I believe you may be confusing some of your terms. The opposite of GUI is not necessarily CLI, and a curses-based interface is not necessarily non-intuitive. My mistake after only 4 hours of sleep -- I should have been specific in using the proper terms and specifying the difference between using just CLI and using a curses interface, which could be considered a form of a GUI. A curses interface that says Press the ENTER key on your keyboard to install Foo is just as intuitive as Click the button below with your mouse to install Foo (in fact, some might argue that it's more intuitive, as almost everyone in the world has pushed a button at one time or another, yet millions, maybe billions, have never touched a mouse). Actually, believe it or not, it isn't. I've worked with people that are very intelligent and quite able to process information, but can work with a point and click interface MUCH more easily than anything that uses a keyboard. Of course, it's possible to make a curses interface work on a point and click basis as well. A good generalized example of someone who will do much better with a windows based GUI is someone who uses computers for graphic design work or video editing, or page layout. The problem with a GUI installer on Debian is that Debian doesn't run only on i386, like some of the more popular distros. In such a situation, it's very hard to write a GUI that'll work the same and look the same on 11 or 16 (or however many) different architectures. I've never argued that. Personally, I have no problem with a curses based install. My frustrations are elsewhere. For example (and I'm not asking this as a question, but pointing it out as what I see as a problem), why can Knoppix easily detect all my hardware every time it boots and install the correct drivers, but a one-time install program can't do the same thing? It would make the install MUCH easier if it could. The, as a user or sysadmin, I could either accept the default values or change them if I wanted to. On the other hand, I also realize Knoppix is not being used on as many different architectures as Debian, so there is a practical reason why Debian doesn't do what Knoppix does. Granted, the text-based (whether CLI or curses-based) installer needs work, but that can be accomplished without resorting to a GUI. I agree. My major point is that it is wrong and ignorant to trash people just because they work better with a different interface than the interface one prefers. I think that what most people who clammer for a GUI installer really want is a more easy-to-accomplish installation, not necessarily a graphics-based installation. Of course, I could be wrong. (That'd be the third time this year if I am - doh!) That's me. I don't need an X based installer -- just one that can take some of the frustration out of installing. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
I think that what most people who clammer for a GUI installer really want is a more easy-to-accomplish installation, not necessarily a graphics-based installation. Of course, I could be wrong. (That'd be the third time this year if I am - doh!) My opinions: First, I think some people were raised on WIMP interfaces and are just plain scared of text-based interfaces. Call it a mental block, but I've seen it. Second, as far as easy-to-accomplish installation, I think what is really lacking is two things: 1. better hardware detection The recent proliferation of desktop distros (Lindows, Libranet, Xandros) distinguish themselves by having better hardware detection and easier configuration of things like Samba and NFS. 2. don't-ask-me-questions install Coupled with better hardware detection, this seems to be one of the first things reviewers comment on. I just clicked a couple buttons, and when I came back in 30 minutes it was installed. True, they are only perpetuating the falicy that any idiot can run a computer, but an awful lot of idiots run Windows (Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups). I consider myself to be fairly computer-literate, but I still use a commercial Linux distro (Xandros, which is based on Debian) because it does what I have considered to be the more archane configuration stuff for me (nVidia drivers, printing to Windows-shared printers, exporting Samba and NFS shares). Windows has succeeded by letting anyone do just about any stupid thing they want. What I think people need is an OS that leads them in the direction of doing intelligent things by _teaching_ them along the way. The Windows approach seems to be we'll make it easy for the user to do stupid things (i.e. insecure things) and say it was their own fault. -- Bobman -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 12:42:38PM -0500, Roberto Sanchez wrote: It's not a question of *me* not wanting a GUI. I'm asking whyinhell *anyone* would want one. What does it enhance? What's the design goal? So far the only thing I've ever seen in print is that it needs to be done because the lamers want it. Debian strives for technical excellence. So supposedly, adding a GUI to the installer improves things somehow? Unfortunately, we live in a GUI point-and-click world now. If we expect to see Linux on the desktop really take off, this is something every distro will need to implement. I think you've just made an unfounded logical leap. Why does _every_ distribution need a graphical installer to make linux on the desktop a reality? Clearly the answer is, not every distro needs a graphical installer. If a distribution wants to cater to server-type machines, that's ok (it's great, really). If a distribution wants to cater to elites, that's fine too. If a distribution wants to ensure that the installer works when the console is a serial port, that's wonderful. Besides, linux on the desktop is a rather nebulous term. I know several people who would love to roll out desktop boxes running linux in their company; this would prevent joe clueless user from playing solitaire, installing backgrounds and mouse cursors, etc. I suspect you mean something very different, where linux becomes the Windows XP killer. That may or may not happen. Personally, I think there are two problems with the latter vision; the average (desktop) computer user views the computer as an appliance, but the average computer is too costly and not reliable enough to be an appliance. Secondly, as long as software companies feel they can make money and lock in market share by releases patent encumbered software (think audio/video codecs) and as long as major players _use_ that software, linux is fighting an uphill battle since linux represents the opposite philosophy, that of openness. You are right, though, that a GUI installer will add nothing in terms of functionality. But, the technical elite (if that is what you want to call them) can still use the CLI and CURSES interfaces when available. In my case, I use GUI tools just because I have only been using Linux for 6 months and haven't learned everything yet. For example, last month I got DSL but I haven't learned iptables yet. So I installed firestarter and voila. Now I am up and running until I can learn the intricacies (which I want to). But, if I decide to not learn iptables the thing still works. Devil's advocate: how do you knmow firestarter does what it says it is doing if you don't understand iptables? Please don't take this as a personal attack; I just feel if you don't understand the technology, using said technology is fraught with peril. For a real world example, think routing protocols and look hard at the internet. There is breakage every day caused by ignorance. A GUI interface is not mutually exclusive to technical excellence. I think that Linux needs to be marketed to the average user. When more people start using it more third party apps get written and more current apps get impoved causing an overall improvement. The ultimate design goal should be overall improvement of the product. The GUI will help achieve that in a roundabout way. Ok, linux needs to be marketed to the average user. Why does that equate to debian must satisfy the needs of all users ? Note: I'm not saying debian shouldn't be easier to install, I just want you to think about why things that are good for linux may not necessarily be good for debian[1]. Finally, let me quote Doug Gwyn: GUIs normally make it simple to accomplish simple actions and impossible to accomplish complex actions. Ah, the random sig generator comes through again :-) [1] You realise debian is about more than just linux, right? -- Nathan Norman - Incanus Networking mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Perilous to all of us are the devices of an art deeper than we ourselves possess. -- Gandalf the Grey -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Devil's advocate: how do you knmow firestarter does what it says it is doing if you don't understand iptables? Please don't take this as a personal attack; I just feel if you don't understand the technology, using said technology is fraught with peril. For a real world example, think routing protocols and look hard at the internet. There is breakage every day caused by ignorance. You cannot eliminate all risks. You cannot expect to understand everything. Are you suggesting everyone should thoroughly understand tcp/ip, osi layers and have read several RFC before sending an email ? As for 'fraught with peril', this is borderline fear mongering. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Wednesday 26 March 2003 23:26, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Wednesday 26 March 2003 03:22 pm, Kent West wrote: I think that what most people who clammer for a GUI installer really want is a more easy-to-accomplish installation, not necessarily a graphics-based installation. Of course, I could be wrong. (That'd be the third time this year if I am - doh!) That's me. I don't need an X based installer -- just one that can take some of the frustration out of installing. I second that. Is debain's installer hard for a first time installer? yes it is. Is debain's installer that hard that it's not useable? No, it's not. Many pleople like the idea of a graphical installer. It makes things, like i18n and l10n for some languages possible. But some (like me) can underestand that it's hard to develop and maintain such a thing on all these architectures. So, do I like a graphical installer? yes, I do, but it's not neccessary, a text based but inituative installer, with better hardware detection, can be the answer for the debain installer (at least, for the time being). Cheers -- /* Those who do not understand Unix *are condemned to reinvent it, poorly */ -UNDEAD Evil GNU/Linux Aryan Ameri -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
I think you've just made an unfounded logical leap. Why does _every_ distribution need a graphical installer to make linux on the desktop a reality? Clearly the answer is, not every distro needs a graphical installer. If a distribution wants to cater to server-type machines, that's ok (it's great, really). If a distribution wants to cater to elites, that's fine too. If a distribution wants to ensure that the installer works when the console is a serial port, that's wonderful. True. Perhaps it would have been better stated by saying that every distro that wants to cater to Desktop users needs to implement a GUI installer (and many other GUI tools). Besides, linux on the desktop is a rather nebulous term. I know several people who would love to roll out desktop boxes running linux in their company; this would prevent joe clueless user from playing solitaire, installing backgrounds and mouse cursors, etc. I suspect you mean something very different, where linux becomes the Windows XP killer. That may or may not happen. Personally, I think there are two problems with the latter vision; the average (desktop) computer user views the computer as an appliance, but the average computer is too costly and not reliable enough to be an appliance. Secondly, as long as software companies feel they can make money and lock in market share by releases patent encumbered software (think audio/video codecs) and as long as major players _use_ that software, linux is fighting an uphill battle since linux represents the opposite philosophy, that of openness. I would love to see Linux become the Windows XP killer. When enough people realize that openness (in standards, file formats, interfaces, and so on) is the only way to ensure that everything can play nice together, things will change. Unfortunately the public needs much education before this can become a reality. Additionally, I would love to see Debian be at the forefront of the push to kill windoze. I like Debian and will continue to use it regardless. If I can't figure something out, I don't mind hopping on my other machine (also a Debian box) and hitting the search engines. But many people simply won't do that. I'm not saying that Debian should be dumbed down any, but that they should make tools available (without taking away the CLI, CURSES, or whatever other tools the gurus love to use) that make it easier for the average end user to use Debian. I think that this is really important because IMHO Debian represents the best of free software. Devil's advocate: how do you knmow firestarter does what it says it is doing if you don't understand iptables? Please don't take this as a personal attack; I just feel if you don't understand the technology, using said technology is fraught with peril. For a real world example, think routing protocols and look hard at the internet. There is breakage every day caused by ignorance. I understand that you are not atacking me :-) But, I take it on faith that if I can apt-get something from an official Debian mirror (especially on the stable tree) that it will work as advertised. Your argument could just as easily be applied to a commercial windoze product like Zone Alarm. In the case of Zone Alarm, though, I can't download and look at the source even if I wanted to. At least with firestarter I can, or at least do 'iptables -nvL' 8-) Ok, linux needs to be marketed to the average user. Why does that equate to debian must satisfy the needs of all users ? Note: I'm not saying debian shouldn't be easier to install, I just want you to think about why things that are good for linux may not necessarily be good for debian[1]. Finally, let me quote Doug Gwyn: GUIs normally make it simple to accomplish simple actions and impossible to accomplish complex actions. Ah, the random sig generator comes through again :-) [1] You realise debian is about more than just linux, right? Again, Debian doesn't have to satisfy the needs of all users. But if it were marketed more to the average user it would be a very good thing for the reasons I stated above. -Roberto Sanchez _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:36:57 -0500 From: Bob Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] First, I think some people were raised on WIMP interfaces and are just plain scared of text-based interfaces. Call it a mental block, but I've seen it. . . . Yes, conditioning may do it. But here's another observation. As a magazine editor I concluded decades ago that writers editors tend to be either *text types or *graphics types. The former sort hates art. The latter can't read. See for yourself. For a few weeks, pay close attention to news photos in any newspaper. Check details in each picture against the exact wording in the cutlines below. And weep. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Perhaps all that's needed is a help option [F1} with layman descriptions??? ... maybe? | -Original Message- | From: Mr. Baldwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 11:54 | To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Subject: Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks | | | | I think that what most people who clammer for a GUI installer really | want is a more easy-to-accomplish installation, not necessarily a | graphics-based installation. Of course, I could be wrong. | | YES | | That's me. I don't need an X based installer -- just one | that can take | some of the frustration out of installing. | | I second that. Is debain's installer hard for a first time | installer? yes it | is. Is debain's installer that hard that it's not useable? No, it's not. | | | I don't need a graphical installer, necessarily, but at least | something a bit less indecipherable. I have only a year of | linux experience at all and am no expert. I didn;t know how to | respond to many of the queries posed during installation. | | tony | | --- | School-library.net | Read, Connect, Learn! | | | _ | Get 25MB, POP3, Spam Filtering with LYCOS MAIL PLUS for $19.95/year. | http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plusref=lmtplus | | | -- | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | --- | Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. | Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). | Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release Date: 17/03/2003 | --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release Date: 17/03/2003 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 11:28:23AM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that different people learn and perceive in different ways. Some people learn and take in information best when everything is neat and orderly. Others do best in what may be perceived as a chaotic environment. Some deal only with facts, others work intuitively. This has been proven many times and is FACT. It's something I, as a special ed teacher working in residential treatment facilities, have had to deal with over and over in my life. If you want a pop-culture example, go out and read about the Myers-Briggs personality type test. I realize that I'm taking a crazy, meandering thread even farther off topic here, but I can't resist tossing this little detail in here. If you want a personality-typing system that's a whole *lot* more insightful and flexible than the ol' Myers-Briggs, check out the Enneagram. These folks by no means invented it, but they do some of the most sound and usable writing on the subject: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ I own a couple of their dead-tree books, and recommend them highly. I always hated personality-typing systems in general, finding that they always tended to either stuff people in rigid little boxes, or be so vague you might as well use a horoscope. With the Enneagram's flexibility (nine basic types, each can have either of two adjacent types as a wing, nine levels of healthy/unhealthy continuum, each type can integrate or disintegrate to incorporate facets of either of two more types...) it actually stands a fighting chance of providing useful insight into the complicated, messy, organic system that we call a person. Of course, this comes with a little bit of a learning curve at the beginning... kinda like Debian (or Linux in general)... Hey, I seem to have meandered back into being kinda-sorta-maybe on-topic! Anyway, sorry if this reads like a sales pitch... But you know how it is when you stumble upon something that's so cool you've just *got* to share it. Don't you? -- ,-. -ScruLoose- | If it doesn't work, force it. Please do not | If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway. reply off-list. | `-' pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 06:02:33PM -0500, Roberto Sanchez wrote: True. Perhaps it would have been better stated by saying that every distro that wants to cater to Desktop users needs to implement a GUI installer (and many other GUI tools). Why? The *user* has zero business installing the box. Yes, Joe Moron benefits from having GUI tools, because they mean he doesn't have to think, but it matters not for the installer. Everyone is talking about intuitive interfaces, and Linux on the desktop, and the Windows XP killer, and etc... and no one wants to touch the basic question: Why is Joe Moron expected to be installing the box? Not how neat if he could, but why in the world should it be set up for him to be able to? Why do we *want* him to be able to? Why does anyone care if he can? Elitism be damned. You don't expect the man off the street to be performing surgery... that's what skilled people are for. In fact, we prosecute people like that who pretend, whether or not they hurt anyone. What makes this different? -- Marc Wilson | mathematician, n.: Some one who believes imaginary [EMAIL PROTECTED] | things appear right before your _i's. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Wednesday 26 March 2003 11:17 pm, Marc Wilson wrote: On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 06:02:33PM -0500, Roberto Sanchez wrote: True. Perhaps it would have been better stated by saying that every distro that wants to cater to Desktop users needs to implement a GUI installer (and many other GUI tools). Why? The *user* has zero business installing the box. Yes, Joe Moron benefits from having GUI tools, because they mean he doesn't have to think, but it matters not for the installer. Are you always so condescending to people who don't know what you know? Perhaps it's not Joe Moron installing his box -- maybe it's someone with a PhD in Physics who is so busy with his work on quantam mechanics he doesn't have time to learn computers. Or maybe it's an MD. Everyone is talking about intuitive interfaces, and Linux on the desktop, and the Windows XP killer, and etc... and no one wants to touch the basic question: Why is Joe Moron expected to be installing the box? Not how neat if he could, but why in the world should it be set up for him to be able to? Why not? Why are you so determined to state who should and should not be installing a system? Why do we *want* him to be able to? Why does anyone care if he can? Why should Joe User (or Joe Moron as you call him) have to care what you *want* him/her to be able to do? Elitism be damned. I agree. Elitism be damned. I can't see why you're saying that. Your statements are elitism of the worst and strongest kind. It's clear you want to keep either Linux or Debian purely in the realm of techies only. Why? It's almost as if you're threatened by the idea that the average user could one day install Linux on his own. You don't expect the man off the street to be performing surgery... that's what skilled people are for. Surgery. Gee, don't you have to be an MD for that? I know in the US that's 4 years of college, 3 years of med school and even more years as an intern. This is a very poor analogy. I learned enough to handle Linux and Debian (including the installer) in less than a year. I think if you want an anology, I think Joe User installing a system is closer to knowing emergency first aid, or perhaps being at the level of an EMT, which takes far less experience than being an MD. I'd also like to point out that learning enough to install a system doesn't even require ANY formal education. In fact, we prosecute people like that who pretend, whether or not they hurt anyone. What makes this different? Again, why are you so scared at the idea of system being easy to install and Joe User being able to buy/download Linux (maybe even Debian) and being able to install it on his/her own system? If Henry Ford had your attitude, autos would have never been for more than mechanics. I'm sure you know computers very well, but it seems quite clear you do NOT know people -- your comments show a complete ignorance of the fact that people don't fit in pigeon holes. Some users want to learn more, some want to find out what else is out there, and some don't want to do a damn thing they don't have to. And some computer people just want to live in their own little world where they can show off their technical expertise and feel superior to others because they know things everyone else doesn't. Is it just possible you fit in the last category? I have to admit, I'm probably what you fear most. While your attitude is elitist and you prefer to decide what is made available to others (statements like Why do we *want* him to be able to? Why does anyone care if he can?) and give people as little as possible, I'm a populist (I guess it comes from living in a republic) and feel it's better to empower as many people as possible with as many tools as possible, giving them the ability to make their own choices and decisions, rather than forcing them to work within the choices we make for them (which, come to think of it, is what Microsoft does -- makes the decisions on what users can and can't do with a computer -- maybe you should be working there...). Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Wed, 2003-03-26 at 22:17, Marc Wilson wrote: On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 06:02:33PM -0500, Roberto Sanchez wrote: True. Perhaps it would have been better stated by saying that every distro that wants to cater to Desktop users needs to implement a GUI installer (and many other GUI tools). Why? The *user* has zero business installing the box. Yes, Joe Moron benefits from having GUI tools, because they mean he doesn't have to think, but it matters not for the installer. Everyone is talking about intuitive interfaces, and Linux on the desktop, and the Windows XP killer, and etc... and no one wants to touch the basic question: Why is Joe Moron expected to be installing the box? Not how neat if he could, but why in the world should it be set up for him to be able to? Why do we *want* him to be able to? Why does anyone care if he can? Elitism be damned. You don't expect the man off the street to be performing surgery... that's what skilled people are for. In fact, we prosecute people like that who pretend, whether or not they hurt anyone. What makes this different? Actually, I think the reason that this discussion tends to get brought up is because Linux hasn't been allowed to penetrate the home system market yet. Dell did pre-installs of RH on desktop systems for a while, but as far I know they've stopped that now except for servers. With the exception of Lindows now, I don't think there are any distributions available pre-installed on any big-name systems. Sure, you can get Debian pre installed at Joe's Computer Shack Inc, but not from Dell or Compaq or HP. Therefore, the only way that we can expect Linux to penetrate the desktop market is by users choosing to install Linux. That involves a few key points: 1) Your average Joe Somebody is never even going to consider chaning, assuming that s/he ever even HEARS of Linux in the first place. 2) Disgruntled Joe Somebody's who are sick and tired of Windows might be willing to give Linux a shot. 3) Technical users wanting more power will give Linux a shot. I think that 3 has been taken care of for quite some time. The only real limitation to these types of users is being able to do what they need to do in Linux. And with how mature of a system Linux is at this point, most technical users can use it full-time without a problem. 1 is never really GOING to get taken care of until we get the support of OEM's. Any user in category 1 is not going to change _what the system comes with_. Since systems come with Windows, users don't change. I'm willing to bet that 99% of all people in group 1 would NEVER change FROM Linux if it came pre-installed on their computer. 2 is the group that we have to focus on for the time being, and they're the group that require a GUI installer. The really have little to no idea of how their computer works, and they don't particularly WANT to know either. They just want it to work. Period. If your installer can't make them feel comfortable from the beginning, they're never even going to get far enough in to SEE your shiny X interface. And, unfortunately, for the majority of users this means that it HAS to be a GUI interface. My father has been using computers for longer than I have. He taught me DOS back in the early 90's. Today, he can't install a program in Windows with auto-run enabled without calling me. He calls me to ask me if its ok to click Next on each of the screens. I don't care how beautifully intuitive of a system you make, and if it's curses based or not, unless it LOOKS like Windows and unless he can CLICK something, he WILL NOT TOUCH IT. Sad but true. Now, with all of that said, I feel it is time to make one simple disclaimer. I don't particularly want idiot users in the Linux world. However, I DO want more mainstream support for Linux from vendors. Unfortunately, since the two are intertwined, I'm forced to choose. Personally, I'm happy the way I am. I'd much rather go without support for some devices and some programs than walk by a store and see a shelf stocked with $200 copies of Microsoft Linux PX (tm)(r)(c)(md)(ps)(ie)(eg)(pu)(etc) :) -- Alex Malinovich Support Free Software, delete your Windows partition TODAY! Encrypted mail preferred. You can get my public key from any of the pgp.net keyservers. Key ID: A6D24837 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 07:52:15PM -0600, Scott C. Linnenbringer wrote: Simply put, if you get frustrated easily, then you shouldn't be using Linux. No, you can use Linux just fine. You just shouldn't be maintaining a Linux system. There's a big difference. - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+gpfBJ5vLSqVpK2kRAtVQAJ4grYfzOUYRY2PITeYHkMIO0nbViACgpE2c IWzahoSU0+EgaPtlNkfM2Zc= =UQ98 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 10:53:36AM +0100, Matthias Hentges wrote: Right! Linux will even tell you when your Printer is on fire ;) Unless you use a newer 2.4 kernel. - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+gqEUJ5vLSqVpK2kRAg97AKC4vKQs4OuioJljXsLY2TrCXI5ezQCeJEO7 2Qj9U/Ylgf+oNqhzDwRfKWM= =aaJ4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 03:28:03AM -0500, Mark L. Kahnt wrote: A week ago, I was setting up a new box (well, new as Debian - had been Win98 and RH) and got to try the Debian boot-floppies installation for the first time in 2 1/2 years. Even after using Debian for 5 years, and knowing how I wanted to lay things out, I had to repartition the box three separate times to get something that would work with the installer - it was being insistent that the first partition prepared should be /, when I had planned to have /dev/hda1 as /boot. You can specify which partition does what, but you do have to mount / first. / can by any partition, not necissarily /dev/hda1, and this is supported by the boot-floppies installer of which you speak. /dev/hda3 is / on ursine, for example. - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+gqjbJ5vLSqVpK2kRAnCmAJ9Tpe8yBEApBCjme/APREuLB/hyiACgyco9 ODDW5RPnG3UpeGIN/oeNzsU= =spjO -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 11:20:30AM -0500, Mark L. Kahnt wrote: Yes, I realised that at the time. I just treat the creation of the filesystems on the partitions, and the positioning of them in the tree to be two separate steps, and by default would select the formatting from the start to the end, rather than automagically going to / first. / is the start of the filesystem as far as the OS is concerned. Yeah, it can be hard to shift your brain from disk layout mode to filesystem layout mode, but it is possible. 8:o) - -- .''`. Baloo Ursidae [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+gqlvJ5vLSqVpK2kRAoaGAJ9oI0P7wIV35H6k6ItrFppEb4gfwgCg2E7s HLStnENV6wUzyFoG/UKXlyg= =kH8B -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 13:03, nate wrote: Alfredo J. Cole said: (Putting on my anti-flame suit) Mandrake copied the RH installer at the early stages. Even the RH 5 installer would be a big advancement. How hard would it be to debianize that installer? the big issue with debian is all the architechtures it supports. I think much of the mandrake/redhat installer is not portable to alpha, mips, ppc, s390, arm, etc.. debian is working on a new installer back-end which, in time will make it possible to use multiple front ends, including X. In a few years you may end up seeing redhat/mandrake drop their installers for debian's new one(though they may make their own front end) :) I don't think debian would release an installer unless it ran on all of their platforms. but be patient, they are working hard on the new installer and it seems to be progressing pretty well from what I've read. The debian group has long admitted that the installer is a weakness, but because the current one is so complex it has been nearly impossible to fix, so they have been working on the ground-up rewrite. The release deadlines prevented this from happening sooner(i.e. couldn't get enough of it done before the freeze) so they had to revert to the original installer. hopefully this time around there's enough time for them to get it working, though I don't know if we'll see an official X11-based installer for the next revision, I hope that they have the backend and a ncurses-style installer done for the next release. nate A week ago, I was setting up a new box (well, new as Debian - had been Win98 and RH) and got to try the Debian boot-floppies installation for the first time in 2 1/2 years. Even after using Debian for 5 years, and knowing how I wanted to lay things out, I had to repartition the box three separate times to get something that would work with the installer - it was being insistent that the first partition prepared should be /, when I had planned to have /dev/hda1 as /boot. Yes, it was more difficult and less glamorous than the Red Hat or Mandrake installers, and I did only as much as I needed in dselect before I got it to install what was needed and moved on to tasksel and apt-get, where I am more at home. But I did substantive things with Debian's installation that aren't really available with the other, fancier installers. It seemed less complicated than back when I'd tried to install (with repeated failures) Slackware 3.1 or OpenBSD, and only a bit more ornery (because of the partitioning and fussing with modules while configuring 2.4.18-bf24) than Debian GNU/Linux 1.3 and 1.3.1, but installing 2.1 on hosehead here did go quicker and smoother. Observations: boot-floppies installation is less glamorous than other distributions or OS/2, Wind'ohs or even DOS (everybody needs a gui installer for DOS ;), but it is by far the most powerful installer I've ever dealt with, partly because of the wide range of things it is dealing with wrt platforms, choice of solutions and configurations. Installing an o/s, a network, every device, a multitude of selections of servers to deal with core tasks, and an even broader array of packages than any other distribution would consider attempting to touch, let alone maintain and share on not only the main servers, but mirrors around the world. Is it perfect for everyone's grandmother? No. But for anyone that knows Unix-ie type computers and has installed an o/s on their box, it may be a thinking exercise, but it is definitely a solid and effective method. -- Mark L. Kahnt, FLMI/M, ALHC, HIA, AIAA, ACS, MHP ML Kahnt New Markets Consulting Tel: (613) 531-8684 / (613) 539-0935 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Am Die, 2003-03-25 um 05.58 schrieb Nathan E Norman: On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 03:30:10PM +1100, Lindsay Yardley wrote: | Marc, the original poster clearly had a problem that went way beyond not | being able to install Debian, but in charity there is no excess. And it | will do no good to make Debian less easy because he was annoying. I've looked after windows boxes for many years, windows users find it quite difficult. Many shudder at the thought of installing anything. Most machines I look at for the first time are in a horribly unstable condition, networks too for that matter. I'm sorry but in my very limited experience with linux i can't see it as any more difficult than windows. The major difference would be that windows hides/ignores conflicts etc, I don't think linux does, does it? In fact, linux forces you to confront problems; this shocks many users who are used to being told oh no, everything's ok as fires rage in the engine room. Right! Linux will even tell you when your Printer is on fire ;) -- Matthias Hentges Cologne / Germany [www.hentges.net] - PGP welcome, HTML tolerated ICQ: 97 26 97 4 - No files, no URL's My OS: Debian Woody: Geek by Nature, Linux by Choice signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Of course, when the shiny happy install doesn't work on some esoteric hardware you're screwed, but nobody runs _that_ stuff. (or do they??) *sigh* About 2 1/2 years ago, I installed Suse on a 1997 Mac clone with a Formac graphics card. Their acclaimed graphical installer (not X though) had trouble dealing with the card, so I had to fall back to the text based installer, which, understandably, they had neglected as nobody uses it. Consequently, the keyboard setup (I had a german mac keyboard) didn't work right. That kind of thing? __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 03:28:03AM -0500, Mark L. Kahnt wrote: A week ago, I was setting up a new box (well, new as Debian - had been Win98 and RH) and got to try the Debian boot-floppies installation for the first time in 2 1/2 years. Even after using Debian for 5 years, and knowing how I wanted to lay things out, I had to repartition the box three separate times to get something that would work with the installer - it was being insistent that the first partition prepared should be /, when I had planned to have /dev/hda1 as /boot. That would be the first partition that you prepare (ie put a file system on). It has _nothing_ to do with the order of the partitions on the drive. Thus, /dev/hda1 could very easily be used as /boot. You just need to mount and prepare the partition that you wish to use as / first. -- Jamin W. Collins -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 02:05:16AM -0800, Lukas Latz wrote: Of course, when the shiny happy install doesn't work on some esoteric hardware you're screwed, but nobody runs _that_ stuff. (or do they??) *sigh* About 2 1/2 years ago, I installed Suse on a 1997 Mac clone with a Formac graphics card. Their acclaimed graphical installer (not X though) had trouble dealing with the card, so I had to fall back to the text based installer, which, understandably, they had neglected as nobody uses it. Consequently, the keyboard setup (I had a german mac keyboard) didn't work right. That kind of thing? EXACTLY!!! Sorry for yelling, but this whole debian is hard to install thing drives me crazy. Call me an elite bastard, but I still feel if debian is too hard to install, you shouldn't be installing it. Mandrake et al exist for a reason. On the other hand, if debian is too staid for you, there are gentoo and slackware and the internet for the roll your own types. See, it's like this: as long as you are using linux I think that's great. I really don't care what color linux you are using (just like I don't really care what shell you use or what kind of beer you drink). I may get pissy if you set up some redhat server disaster and then ask me to maintain it, but if the money is there I'll try to manage it :-) I run debian on sparc hardware as well as i386. I've been using i386 since I was in middle school so being expected to know things like how many keys are on the keyboard and what kind of video chipset I have is not a big shock. Apparently this freaks out a lot of people. It's a good thing those people never tried to get cool games running on DOS. The sparc stuff can get exciting; I'm about a year or two into sparc hardware. It has good points and bad points. You can get a lot of cool stuff on ebay, thus my desktop and server (both running linux). Some code still is a bit dodgy on sparc; some of it will never work due to arch-specific problems. I like that debian runs on several different arches; I can log into lorien (my i386 server) or aglarond (my ultra 60) and for the most part, I see no difference (except the ultra 60 kicks more ass). Commands are the same, file locations are the same ... it's a dream: one that no other *nix I've used comes close to matching. Sorry for the rant. -- Nathan Norman - Incanus Networking mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand. -- Chinese Proverb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 08:13:41AM -0600, Nathan E Norman wrote: I run debian on sparc hardware as well as i386. I've been using i386 since I was in middle school so being expected to know things like how many keys are on the keyboard and what kind of video chipset I have is not a big shock. Apparently this freaks out a lot of people. It's a good thing those people never tried to get cool games running on DOS. Basically, if someone doesn't know how many keys ones keyboard has, _and_ he doesn't know how to count them, then I doubt he should be using a computer at all. I like that debian runs on several different arches; I can log into lorien (my i386 server) or aglarond (my ultra 60) and for the most part, I see no difference (except the ultra 60 kicks more ass). Commands are the same, file locations are the same ... it's a dream: one that no other *nix I've used comes close to matching. exactly Frank Sorry for the rant. -- Nathan Norman - Incanus Networking mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand. -- Chinese Proverb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Nathan E Norman said: Sorry for yelling, but this whole debian is hard to install thing drives me crazy. Call me an elite bastard, but I still feel if debian is too hard to install, you shouldn't be installing it. Mandrake et al exist for a reason. well of course there are always exceptions. Having done probably a hundred or more debian installs over nearly the past 5 years I am fairly proficient(to put it lightly) at installing debian. but still, at least in the realm of supported hardware debian isn't quite up there yet. I do try to build my systems with debian in mind, so the occasion is rare that I have a system that is more difficult to install debian on. the worst such examples were newer(at the time) IBM and toshiba notebooks. the debian CDs wouldn't even boot on them. The system wouldn't see them as bootable cds so wouldn't try. luckily the toshiba had a floppy drive(IBM did not) so I could install on the toshiba. However, SuSE 7.3(at the time) booted installed fine for some reason. I think I was using potato CDs at the time not woody. but once your over the first hurdle of getting the base system installed and booted the rest is cake for me. though it would save some time if the installer could install directly onto a software raid array(raid on root). and I will probably never forget the ~8 hours it took me to get my i810 video chipset working on debian slink back in may 2000. If I had only known there was a kernel driver within the xfree86 distribution I could of saved 6 hours :) nate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 08:15, Jamin W. Collins wrote: On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 03:28:03AM -0500, Mark L. Kahnt wrote: A week ago, I was setting up a new box (well, new as Debian - had been Win98 and RH) and got to try the Debian boot-floppies installation for the first time in 2 1/2 years. Even after using Debian for 5 years, and knowing how I wanted to lay things out, I had to repartition the box three separate times to get something that would work with the installer - it was being insistent that the first partition prepared should be /, when I had planned to have /dev/hda1 as /boot. That would be the first partition that you prepare (ie put a file system on). It has _nothing_ to do with the order of the partitions on the drive. Thus, /dev/hda1 could very easily be used as /boot. You just need to mount and prepare the partition that you wish to use as / first. -- Jamin W. Collins Yes, I realised that at the time. I just treat the creation of the filesystems on the partitions, and the positioning of them in the tree to be two separate steps, and by default would select the formatting from the start to the end, rather than automagically going to / first. Or at least I would have done that when I did that, before I realised that it wanted / defined with the first filesystem. Either I read past the information noting that too fast, or it wasn't mentioned. Either happens. -- Mark L. Kahnt, FLMI/M, ALHC, HIA, AIAA, ACS, MHP ML Kahnt New Markets Consulting Tel: (613) 531-8684 / (613) 539-0935 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-Original Message- From: Nathan E Norman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 6:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks EXACTLY!!! Sorry for yelling, but this whole debian is hard to install thing drives me crazy. Call me an elite bastard, but I still feel if debian is too hard to install, you shouldn't be installing it. Mandrake et al exist for a reason. On the other hand, if debian is too staid for you, there are gentoo and slackware and the internet for the roll your own types. See, it's like this: as long as you are using linux I think that's great. I really don't care what color linux you are using (just like I don't really care what shell you use or what kind of beer you drink). I may get pissy if you set up some redhat server disaster and then ask me to maintain it, but if the money is there I'll try to manage it :-) I run debian on sparc hardware as well as i386. I've been using i386 since I was in middle school so being expected to know things like how many keys are on the keyboard and what kind of video chipset I have is not a big shock. Apparently this freaks out a lot of people. It's a good thing those people never tried to get cool games running on DOS. The sparc stuff can get exciting; I'm about a year or two into sparc hardware. It has good points and bad points. You can get a lot of cool stuff on ebay, thus my desktop and server (both running linux). Some code still is a bit dodgy on sparc; some of it will never work due to arch-specific problems. I like that debian runs on several different arches; I can log into lorien (my i386 server) or aglarond (my ultra 60) and for the most part, I see no difference (except the ultra 60 kicks more ass). Commands are the same, file locations are the same ... it's a dream: one that no other *nix I've used comes close to matching. Sorry for the rant. -- Nathan Norman - Incanus Networking mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand. -- Chinese Proverb OK, I was trying to stay out of this but I may as well weigh in. Is the install easy, no. However, my very first Linux install period was Debian potato on a Mac G3. Now I am an x86 guy and never installed Linux before and had SCSI drives in the Mac with OS 9 on the first hd and wanted to put Debian on sdb (You would be surprised at the issues this causes by the way). Aside from some funkiness with openfirmware and booting and a newbie problem with X, I had the thing running in a day. How HARD can that be? RANT It amazes me sometimes how little effort people put into things these days. This includes people who actually do support for a living. We pay an outside company some significant money for help desk/desktop support. Whenever they run across a problem they haven't seen before, do they troubleshoot it at all? No. Time to re-image your hard drive. Yeesh. Same goes for this newsgroup. I am guilty of it at times myself, I will admit but at times I am amazed at the simple questions that are asked over and over. Do they not search the net at all? What would these people have done 8-10 years ago when the Internet, newsgroups, etc. were not so readily available. When I was doing field service, we actually had to troubleshoot problems. And God forbid if you needed a new driver or such. Then it was digging through Company BBS's or CompuServe or some other such means. And Oh My God, no pretty Graphical web browser to navigate those, how did we survive??? :-) /RANT -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-Original Message- From: Mark L. Kahnt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 3:28 AM To: debuser Subject: Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks A week ago, I was setting up a new box (well, new as Debian - had been Win98 and RH) and got to try the Debian boot-floppies installation for the first time in 2 1/2 years. Even after using Debian for 5 years, and knowing how I wanted to lay things out, I had to repartition the box three separate times to get something that would work with the installer - it was being insistent that the first partition prepared should be /, when I had planned to have /dev/hda1 as /boot. You can (and I do) have the first partition (/dev/hda1) mounted as /boot. I did this using the the 2.4.18-bf2.4 (or whatever) boot floppies. You do, however (as the installer explains) have to mount your root (/) partition first. Here, that's /dev/hda3. You have to mount it first, then mount your /boot, because you can't mount /boot and then mount / after that. j. -- Jeremy L. Gaddis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gaddis.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Kirk Strauser said: Frankly, *I* have to look up my keyboard specs when I install X (which happens, maybe, once every 1.5 years or so), because the answer isn't nearly as straightforward as just counting the physical buttons. Frankly, *I* am a lazy son of a bitch so I don't look up the keyboard specs(never had to), worst case is some keys (may)end up not doing anything in X..but I don't care :) ..as long as the keys that I use work! and they do.. nate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Subject: Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks Can someone help me with a procmail filter so that I no longer see these ?? :-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
I like that debian runs on several different arches; I can log into lorien (my i386 server) or aglarond (my ultra 60) and for the most part, I see no difference (except the ultra 60 kicks more ass). Commands are the same, file locations are the same ... it's a dream: one that no other *nix I've used comes close to matching. exactly Frank Hey! You can get Solaris and NeXT Step for i386. Oh, wait ... 8-p -Roberto _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 10:14:05AM -0600, Kirk Strauser wrote: At 2003-03-25T15:05:08Z, Frank Gevaerts [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Basically, if someone doesn't know how many keys ones keyboard has, _and_ he doesn't know how to count them, then I doubt he should be using a computer at all. Devil's advocate: A new user may not know whether to count every single key. For example, shift doesn't do anything at all by itself, right? Indeed. Whenever a program tells me to 'press any key', I always first try shift, control and alt. Usually, the message is clearly wrong Frank What about my Happy Hacking Lite's Fn key that's used to build the F1-F10 keys, Home, End, etc. Does it count? Do those keys that don't physically exist, but are generated when you're holding down Fn count? Good question. My guess would be that they do count, but it isn't obvious at all. Frank Frankly, *I* have to look up my keyboard specs when I install X (which happens, maybe, once every 1.5 years or so), because the answer isn't nearly as straightforward as just counting the physical buttons. -- Kirk Strauser In Googlis non est, ergo non est. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
At 2003-03-25T20:18:48Z, Frank Gevaerts [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed. Whenever a program tells me to 'press any key', I always first try shift, control and alt. Usually, the message is clearly wrong Have you found any correct programs other than, say, xev? :) Good question. My guess would be that they do count, but it isn't obvious at all. Answer: Fn doesn't count, but the chorded keys do. I just wanted to point out that not being able to count one's keys doesn't necessarily an idiot make. -- Kirk Strauser In Googlis non est, ergo non est. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Basically, if someone doesn't know how many keys ones keyboard has, _and_ he doesn't know how to count them, then I doubt he should be using a computer at all. Devil's advocate: A new user may not know whether to count every single key. For example, shift doesn't do anything at all by itself, right? What about my Happy Hacking Lite's Fn key that's used to build the F1-F10 keys, Home, End, etc. Does it count? Do those keys that don't physically exist, but are generated when you're holding down Fn count? Frankly, *I* have to look up my keyboard specs when I install X (which happens, maybe, once every 1.5 years or so), because the answer isn't nearly as straightforward as just counting the physical buttons. -- Fair comment. And for keyboards with 'internet' 'mail' 'search' buttons ? are they counted as keys. Using n-key keyboard types is lazy, why not have a database of keyboard model numbers to choose from. Matt Children's Cancer Institute Australia is the only independent medical research institute in Australia solely devoted to research into the causes, prevention and cure of childhood cancer. Our vision is to save the lives of all children with cancer and eliminate their suffering. http://www.ccia.org.au -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Am Die, 2003-03-25 um 19.44 schrieb Hall Stevenson: Subject: Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks Can someone help me with a procmail filter so that I no longer see these ?? :-) man procmailrc *SCNR* -- Matthias Hentges Cologne / Germany [www.hentges.net] - PGP welcome, HTML tolerated ICQ: 97 26 97 4 - No files, no URL's My OS: Debian Woody: Geek by Nature, Linux by Choice signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 07:28:15AM -0800, nate wrote: Nathan E Norman said: Sorry for yelling, but this whole debian is hard to install thing drives me crazy. Call me an elite bastard, but I still feel if debian is too hard to install, you shouldn't be installing it. Mandrake et al exist for a reason. well of course there are always exceptions. Having done probably a hundred or more debian installs over nearly the past 5 years I am fairly proficient(to put it lightly) at installing debian. but still, at least in the realm of supported hardware debian isn't quite up there yet. I do try to build my systems with debian in mind, so the occasion is rare that I have a system that is more difficult to install debian on. the worst such examples were newer(at the time) IBM and toshiba notebooks. the debian CDs wouldn't even boot on them. The system wouldn't see them as bootable cds so wouldn't try. luckily the toshiba had a floppy drive(IBM did not) so I could install on the toshiba. However, SuSE 7.3(at the time) booted installed fine for some reason. I think I was using potato CDs at the time not woody. but once your over the first hurdle of getting the base system installed and booted the rest is cake for me. though it would save some time if the installer could install directly onto a software raid array(raid on root). Out of the box it can't, but you can do it if you're willing to be a little crazy :-) The midhgard link has some pointers. I hear and understand what you are saying about not all installs are easy; been there, done that. However, I never said (or at least, I never meant to say) that installing debian is easy. In fact, I do not care if people think installing debian is hard. What bothers me are people who _think it's hard_ because they have no clue as to what's in their box, and they whine and bitch about it and demand a new better installer that not only works no matter what but has shiny graphics and tetris and other nonsense. IOW, people who refuse to _learn_. ESR is right on about these people. -- Nathan Norman - Incanus Networking mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. -- Napoleon Bonaparte -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 07:58:09PM -0800, Paul E Condon wrote: Marc, the original poster clearly had a problem that went way beyond not being able to install Debian, but in charity there is no excess. And it will do no good to make Debian less easy because he was annoying. I have no interest in making things any harder. I have no interest in making things any easier, either. I see no reason whatsoever why Joe Moron should be expected to install an operating system in the first place. That's what intelligent people are for. Joe Moron... who can't figure out how to change the oil in his car, and thus takes it to a mechanic... we expect him to be able to build a computer. He can't program his VCR, but we expect him to maintain a *nix box. Laughable. Newbies get slammed because they're asked to do something they have no knowledge of and no skill at, and thus they fail. And who's fault is that? -- Marc Wilson | You shouldn't have to pay for your love with your [EMAIL PROTECTED] | bones and your flesh. -- Pat Benatar, Hell is | for Children -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 09:38:54AM +1100, Joyce, Matthew wrote: Using n-key keyboard types is lazy, why not have a database of keyboard model numbers to choose from. I think that there are way too many different keyboards out there for that to work. Frank Matt Children's Cancer Institute Australia is the only independent medical research institute in Australia solely devoted to research into the causes, prevention and cure of childhood cancer. Our vision is to save the lives of all children with cancer and eliminate their suffering. http://www.ccia.org.au -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 13:51:44 +1100 x^equa|s1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Mar 23, 2003 at 05:53:54PM -0500, JOSEPH A NAGY JR wrote: I am sick and god damned fucking TIRED of all the SHIT I have to put up with just to get a system up and working. Install x to get A affect, but x won't install unless you have w, y, and z, and w, y, and z WILL NOT BE INSTALLED NO MATTER WHAT THE GODDAMNED FUCK YOU DO! You can take your peice of shit wannabe os and SUCK MY COCK. Every last one of you can fuck off. Don't bother replying on or off list. Good FUCKING BYE! Good fuck'n Bye! Plain english not got for ya? Well, I hope you enjoy getting spammed. I look forward to it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On 3/24/03 6:08 AM, lucas wrote: Every last one of you can fuck off. Don't bother replying on or off list. Good FUCKING BYE! Good fuck'n Bye! I am confused, if you don't want replies, don't reply back. -- Thanks!! David Thurman List Only at Web Presence Group Net Join Cobaltfacts http://list.cobaltfacts.com/mailman/listinfo/cobaltfacts/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Sun, Mar 23, 2003 at 07:26:51PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: Late last month. I think he posted twice out of a few dozen times that he demonstrated he had a clue. I think his brain's signal to noise ratio is too low for him to even be owning a computer. s/owning a computer/commanding anything more dangerous than Play-Doh/ HTH. -- Don Werve [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Unix System Administrator) Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue, Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
I don't condone the outburst, and am not fully tuned in on this incident. I must say, however, that compared to a number of other systems I've worked with, Debian is difficult to get installed and configured. I suspect the poor fellow was ready to tear his hair out (assuming he had some hair). On the other hand, I've found the system to function extrememly well, and be marvilously stable. Once installed, it is easy to upgrade and install applications on. So the big hump, unfortunately, is at the very beginning. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
my personal view is that this poor guy simply needed to tell someone that he was not able to get Debian running. Did he know how to, he would admire Debian like everybody else. However, it's * not worth going on flame wars * Thus, we should stop such silly and ridiculous discussions that are offending and nothing more than this. So, please accept my apologies for having written my opinion -- and wasted bandwidth for nothing. wbr, Lukas PS: I will not answer any comment to this email -- if it should offend somebody, please accept my apologies. -- Lukas Ruf | Wanna know anything about raw | http://www.lpr.ch | IP? http://www.rawip.org | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
El Lun 24 Mar 2003 10:06, Larry escribió: (...) On the other hand, I've found the system to function extrememly well, and be marvilously stable. Once installed, it is easy to upgrade and install applications on. So the big hump, unfortunately, is at the very beginning. (Putting on my anti-flame suit) Mandrake copied the RH installer at the early stages. Even the RH 5 installer would be a big advancement. How hard would it be to debianize that installer? Regards. -- Alfredo J. Cole http://www.acyc.com http://www.clshonduras.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 08:06:12AM -0800, Larry wrote: I must say, however, that compared to a number of other systems I've worked with, Debian is difficult to get installed and configured. I suspect the poor fellow was ready to tear his hair out (assuming he had some hair). On the other hand, I've found the system to function extrememly well, and be marvilously stable. Once installed, it is easy to upgrade and install applications on. So the big hump, unfortunately, is at the very beginning. Debian is geared towards building long-term stable systems; this really only comes at the expense of newbie user-friendliness. It's the same reason that building a treehouse is easy, but building a steel-reinforced-concrete bunker is hard. -- Don Werve [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Unix System Administrator) Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue, Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Alfredo J. Cole said: (Putting on my anti-flame suit) Mandrake copied the RH installer at the early stages. Even the RH 5 installer would be a big advancement. How hard would it be to debianize that installer? the big issue with debian is all the architechtures it supports. I think much of the mandrake/redhat installer is not portable to alpha, mips, ppc, s390, arm, etc.. debian is working on a new installer back-end which, in time will make it possible to use multiple front ends, including X. In a few years you may end up seeing redhat/mandrake drop their installers for debian's new one(though they may make their own front end) :) I don't think debian would release an installer unless it ran on all of their platforms. but be patient, they are working hard on the new installer and it seems to be progressing pretty well from what I've read. The debian group has long admitted that the installer is a weakness, but because the current one is so complex it has been nearly impossible to fix, so they have been working on the ground-up rewrite. The release deadlines prevented this from happening sooner(i.e. couldn't get enough of it done before the freeze) so they had to revert to the original installer. hopefully this time around there's enough time for them to get it working, though I don't know if we'll see an official X11-based installer for the next revision, I hope that they have the backend and a ncurses-style installer done for the next release. nate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
--- Alfredo J. Cole [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: El Lun 24 Mar 2003 10:06, Larry escribio': (...) On the other hand, I've found the system to function extrememly well, and be marvilously stable. Once installed, it is easy to upgrade and install applications on. So the big hump, unfortunately, is at the very beginning. (Putting on my anti-flame suit) Mandrake copied the RH installer at the early stages. Even the RH 5 installer would be a big advancement. How hard would it be to debianize that installer? Regards. -- Alfredo J. Cole http://www.acyc.com http://www.clshonduras.com I think the Debian installing system is friendly enough - the only problems I've had were about configuring hardware - but the only way to get around those kind of problems would be autodetection of hardware stuff which - as I was told - isn't allways a good idea __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
G'day Larry, I'm surprised to hear that. I'm a relative newbie to linux and chose debian cause the others tend to dictate what u can can't install and often (on the systems i've tried) stuff up whereas debian allows you to choose what how it's installed but stops you from stuffing it up, so it runs (well, after all the installs i've done so far) after the install. cheers, Lindsay | -Original Message- | From: Larry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Tuesday, 25 March 2003 03:06 | To: debian | Subject: Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks | | | I don't condone the outburst, and am not fully tuned | in on this incident. | | I must say, however, that compared to a number of | other systems I've worked with, Debian is difficult to | get installed and configured. I suspect the poor | fellow was ready to tear his hair out (assuming he had | some hair). | | On the other hand, I've found the system to function | extrememly well, and be marvilously stable. Once | installed, it is easy to upgrade and install | applications on. So the big hump, unfortunately, is | at the very beginning. | | | __ | Do you Yahoo!? | Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! | http://platinum.yahoo.com | | | -- | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | --- | Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. | Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). | Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release Date: 17/03/2003 | --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release Date: 17/03/2003 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 10:03:24AM -0800, nate wrote: hopefully this time around there's enough time for them to get it working, though I don't know if we'll see an official X11-based installer for the next revision, I hope that they have the backend and a ncurses-style installer done for the next release. Gods, whyinhell would you need X in order to install a distribution? That's just silly. -- Marc Wilson | I like young girls. Their stories are shorter. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- Tom McGuane -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 08:06:12AM -0800, Larry wrote: I must say, however, that compared to a number of other systems I've worked with, Debian is difficult to get installed and configured. I suspect the poor fellow was ready to tear his hair out (assuming he had some hair). Yeah, you have to be able to read, which lets out most morons. Someone please tell me, though... what is wrong with a system that does NOT pander to Joe Moron? Why does anyone care whether or not Joe Moron can install an operating system? Why are we encouraging him to try? It seems to be accepted as a given that Joe Moron needs to know how to build a computer in order to use one. The idea that operating systems are consumer products is the ultimate Microsoft-ism and, I think, has led to a lot of their problems. -- Marc Wilson | In charity there is no excess. -- Francis Bacon [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Am Mon, 2003-03-24 um 17.06 schrieb Larry: I don't condone the outburst, and am not fully tuned in on this incident. I must say, however, that compared to a number of other systems I've worked with, Debian is difficult to get installed and configured. Amen to that. I'm running Linux for four years now. I installed Debian a couple of time on different machines but had never much trouble with it. Until yesterday. Where's the god damn logic of putting PCMCIA-hardware support *outside* the modconf menu?? It took me 45mins to find it grrr. Note: No PCMCIA, no network on most laptops *sigh* [...] -- Matthias Hentges Cologne / Germany [www.hentges.net] - PGP welcome, HTML tolerated ICQ: 97 26 97 4 - No files, no URL's My OS: Debian Woody: Geek by Nature, Linux by Choice signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
Hi Marc! On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Marc Wilson wrote: On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 08:06:12AM -0800, Larry wrote: I must say, however, that compared to a number of other systems I've worked with, Debian is difficult to get installed and configured. I suspect the poor fellow was ready to tear his hair out (assuming he had some hair). Yeah, you have to be able to read, which lets out most morons. Someone please tell me, though... what is wrong with a system that does NOT pander to Joe Moron? Why does anyone care whether or not Joe Moron can install an operating system? Why are we encouraging him to try? It seems to be accepted as a given that Joe Moron needs to know how to build a computer in order to use one. The idea that operating systems are consumer products is the ultimate Microsoft-ism and, I think, has led to a lot of their problems. My sentiment exactly. I'd rather not have a dumbed down system. And how many times do you go through an install anyway. Last time I did an install was almost two years ago. -- B. L. Jilek [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP keys on my website -- http://crowbyte.dnsalias.com/~tcrow/ Linux user: 163800 | Debian Rules! | Slackware Rocks! --- pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
I was just making the observation, one I can verify with other folks I know (none of which would be classified as idiots in any forum I'm aware of) that compared to other systems, Debian is not as easy to install and configure. As an example, when installing Potato on a computer that had held Windows, OS/2, and Redhat, I couldn't even get the Debian to complete installation, because it could neither create a boot disk (some access failure to the floppy) or write a boot sector to the hard disk. I had to mess around with an old Redhat boot disk to finally get Debian on there. After that, I couldn't get Debian to recognize my lan card. A kind soul in this group informed me that sure enough, the default boot system had a glitch with respect to my card, and building a new kernel would solve it (it did). I also had a devil of a time getting my lan printer to work. None of the other mentioned systems had such difficulties getting up and running. None-the-less, I'm a Debian user because of its stability, standards adherence, and ease of application installation. Because of the difficulities one may encounter during installation and configuration, however, I don't feel pressured to call it a perfect system. Just a very good one, that has put less emphasis on installation and configuration than on other aspects. There is nothing defective about a person who in their computer use, puts more emphasis in installation and configuration ease. But such a person is probably better served by some other system. So I show tolerance to my brethren who get frustrated during a Debian installation -- it can happen. (Not so tolerant to ranting and swearing, however). __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 3:45 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks Importance: High A typical Windows user -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Excuse me? I use outlook at work because I have no choice, nor have I participated in this thread. Where did this e-mail come from? Barry deFreese Technology Services Manager Nike Team Sports (949)-616-4005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technology doesn't make you less stupid; it just makes you stupid faster. Jerry Gregoire - Former CIO at Dell -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Monday 24 March 2003 10:06 am, Larry wrote: I don't condone the outburst, and am not fully tuned in on this incident. I must say, however, that compared to a number of other systems I've worked with, Debian is difficult to get installed and configured. I suspect the poor fellow was ready to tear his hair out (assuming he had some hair). The 'poor' fellow shouldn't be using Debian to begin. Debian is an operating system for hobbyists and technically literate individuals who want a powerful and complete system, and a free one at that. It's not for one who gets frustrated easily; It wasn't designed for that. If I wanted a system that was simple, did everything I want, but had to sacrifice performance, power, enjoyment, et cetera, then I'd run Windows. Thus, I run Debian! On the other hand, I've found the system to function extrememly well, and be marvilously stable. Sid isn't the same way, as it takes some unborking to get working. But it's fun and I learn quite a bit, so it's worth it. Stable doesn't break when you finally get it working, but it can still be difficult for Joe (no offense to the people named Joe) Doofus to set up. Linux is, and forever will be, an operating system for the technically literate and those who want to be technically literate. Once installed, it is easy to upgrade and install applications on. So the big hump, unfortunately, is at the very beginning. Simply put, if you get frustrated easily, then you shouldn't be using Linux. -- Scott C. Linnenbringer finger sl at eskimo.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 03:13:04PM -0800, Marc Wilson wrote: On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 08:06:12AM -0800, Larry wrote: I must say, however, that compared to a number of other systems I've worked with, Debian is difficult to get installed and configured. I suspect the poor fellow was ready to tear his hair out (assuming he had some hair). Yeah, you have to be able to read, which lets out most morons. Someone please tell me, though... what is wrong with a system that does NOT pander to Joe Moron? Why does anyone care whether or not Joe Moron can install an operating system? Why are we encouraging him to try? It seems to be accepted as a given that Joe Moron needs to know how to build a computer in order to use one. The idea that operating systems are consumer products is the ultimate Microsoft-ism and, I think, has led to a lot of their problems. -- Marc Wilson | In charity there is no excess. -- Francis Bacon [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Marc, the original poster clearly had a problem that went way beyond not being able to install Debian, but in charity there is no excess. And it will do no good to make Debian less easy because he was annoying. -- Paul E Condon [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
| Marc, the original poster clearly had a problem that went way beyond not | being able to install Debian, but in charity there is no excess. And it | will do no good to make Debian less easy because he was annoying. I've looked after windows boxes for many years, windows users find it quite difficult. Many shudder at the thought of installing anything. Most machines I look at for the first time are in a horribly unstable condition, networks too for that matter. I'm sorry but in my very limited experience with linux i can't see it as any more difficult than windows. The major difference would be that windows hides/ignores conflicts etc, I don't think linux does, does it? :-) cherrio Lindsay --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release Date: 17/03/2003 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 03:07:24PM -0800, Marc Wilson wrote: On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 10:03:24AM -0800, nate wrote: hopefully this time around there's enough time for them to get it working, though I don't know if we'll see an official X11-based installer for the next revision, I hope that they have the backend and a ncurses-style installer done for the next release. Gods, whyinhell would you need X in order to install a distribution? That's just silly. But it's so _cool_; nifty splash screens and widgets and whatnot make this _look_ like the premiere linux distro. Of course, when the shiny happy install doesn't work on some esoteric hardware you're screwed, but nobody runs _that_ stuff. (or do they??) *sigh* -- Nathan Norman - Incanus Networking mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws. -- Plato -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 03:30:10PM +1100, Lindsay Yardley wrote: | Marc, the original poster clearly had a problem that went way beyond not | being able to install Debian, but in charity there is no excess. And it | will do no good to make Debian less easy because he was annoying. I've looked after windows boxes for many years, windows users find it quite difficult. Many shudder at the thought of installing anything. Most machines I look at for the first time are in a horribly unstable condition, networks too for that matter. I'm sorry but in my very limited experience with linux i can't see it as any more difficult than windows. The major difference would be that windows hides/ignores conflicts etc, I don't think linux does, does it? In fact, linux forces you to confront problems; this shocks many users who are used to being told oh no, everything's ok as fires rage in the engine room. -- Nathan Norman - Incanus Networking mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] This message cannot be considered spam, even though it is. Some law that never was enacted says so. -- Arkadiy Belousov -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
-Original Message- From: JOSEPH A NAGY JR [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 5:54 PM To: LUNA Mailing List; Debian User Subject: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks I am sick and god damned fucking TIRED of all the SHIT I have to put up with just to get a system up and working. Install x to get A affect, but x won't install unless you have w, y, and z, and w, y, and z WILL NOT BE INSTALLED NO MATTER WHAT THE GODDAMNED FUCK YOU DO! You can take your peice of shit wannabe os and SUCK MY COCK. Every last one of you can fuck off. Don't bother replying on or off list. Good FUCKING BYE! FOAD K PLZ TNX BYE!!1!! j. -- Jeremy L. Gaddis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gaddis.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
JOSEPH A NAGY JR said: I am sick and god damned fucking TIRED of all the SHIT I have to put up with just to get a system up and working. Install x to get A affect, but x won't install unless you have w, y, and z, and w, y, and z WILL NOT BE INSTALLED NO MATTER WHAT THE GODDAMNED FUCK YOU DO! You can take your peice of shit wannabe os and SUCK MY COCK. Every last one of you can fuck off. Don't bother replying on or off list. Good FUCKING BYE! don't let the door hit ya on the way out :) nate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT, FLAME] Linux Sucks
At 2003-03-23T22:53:54Z, JOSEPH A NAGY JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am sick and god d* f** TIRED of all the S*** I have to put up with just to get a system up and working. Install x to get A affect, but x won't install unless you have w, y, and z, and w, y, and z WILL NOT BE INSTALLED NO MATTER WHAT THE GODD* F*** YOU DO! If you feel that strongly, please accept a refund for the unsatisfactory software. Here it is: -- -- There. Feel better now? -- Kirk Strauser In Googlis non est, ergo non est. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
