Re: [SOLVED] Re: [jessie] recording line-in using ALSA?

[deloptes]

Brian wrote:

> On Sat 29 Oct 2016 at 21:51:48 +0300, Reco wrote:
> 
>> Hi.
>> 
>> On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:54:27 +0200
>> deloptes  wrote:
>> 
>> > Reco wrote:
>> > 
>> > > So basically you're proposing to force the user to install GTK3 (with
>> > > both C and C++ bindinds) just to install pulseaudio.
>> > > 
>> > > There are reasons that this distribution is called Debian, not
>> > > You-favorite-enterprisey-tangled-dependency-mess, and one of those
>> > > reasons is a careful placement of dependencies.
>> > > 
>> > > Reco
>> > 
>> > Ric didn't say he proposes. He said "I think" which is personal
>> > opinion. I think nowdays it is getting a big problem understanding each
>> > other and I think it is sad, because we are misinterpreting what the
>> > other say which is equivalent to not hearing.
>> 
>> My apologies to Ric, you and any other maillist participant just in
>> case.
> 
> A sentence beginning "I think you should." is practically equivalent
> to "I propose you should..". So Ric did propose something. Proposing
> or thinking is always a personal opinion.
> 
> You shouldn't have backed down.
> 

Come on Brian, we don't need "wars". Exactly the point is the personal
opinion. Ric says "I think it should". Roco takes it as proposal. Perhaps
my English is not that good, but I don't take a personal opinion "I think
it should" as proposal. In his epistemic world this package is better
requireing the other package, but in the real world it just suggest.
So lets agree that "suggests" is the better solution for this and that
reason and leave it there.

>> Still, I've seen where this road can take a perfectly good package.
>> 
>> First example being openjdk-7-jre-headless. After a certain DSA update
>> about a year ago it started to depend on libpulse0 (because reasons,
>> apparently), and boom - a *headless* java install bring about one third
>> of X with it. Kind of depends the whole purpose of package from a
>> certain perspective - as package description explicitly refers 'non GUI
>> Java programs'.
>> 
>> Second example being libvirt-daemon-system, introduced in jessie, which
>> started to depend on policykit-1, because (see #768376) from
>> the POV of the maintainer of the package - absolutely nobody (bug
>> report states 95% actually) uses libvirt without virt-manager, and
>> virt-manager breaks somehow without PolicyKit.
>> 

I completely agree with Reco on all the arguments also from his previous
mail. I'm glad that not all "suggestions" are implemented and made
available to the public.
I also hate it when a simple program pulls in a lot of unrealted and
unwanted software, just because some developer did not define dependencies
in a proper way. However Reco is better off raising this issue with the
maintainers and developers. I have few custom build packages that suite my
personal needs. 
Ah and I froze policy kit because later versions were not providing what I
need.
So yes I agree with Reco except for the way he put it forward.
I think Ric should not propose pulse depending on the graphical frontend. We
just have to know that this is available and useful if one has X and some
kind of desktop installed.
I wish that pavucontrol had various implementations aside gtk, but we all
have gtk installed -no? At least because of firefox or some other program.

>> Oh, and don't get me started on the way they package hplip.
> 
> Please do. What is wrong with the packaging of hplip?

Yes indeed ... but perhaps in another thread.

regards

Re: [SOLVED] Re: [jessie] recording line-in using ALSA?

[Brian]

On Sat 29 Oct 2016 at 21:51:48 +0300, Reco wrote:

>   Hi.
> 
> On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:54:27 +0200
> deloptes  wrote:
> 
> > Reco wrote:
> > 
> > > So basically you're proposing to force the user to install GTK3 (with
> > > both C and C++ bindinds) just to install pulseaudio.
> > > 
> > > There are reasons that this distribution is called Debian, not
> > > You-favorite-enterprisey-tangled-dependency-mess, and one of those
> > > reasons is a careful placement of dependencies.
> > > 
> > > Reco
> > 
> > Ric didn't say he proposes. He said "I think" which is personal opinion. I
> > think nowdays it is getting a big problem understanding each other and I
> > think it is sad, because we are misinterpreting what the other say which is
> > equivalent to not hearing.
> 
> My apologies to Ric, you and any other maillist participant just in
> case.

A sentence beginning "I think you should." is practically equivalent
to "I propose you should..". So Ric did propose something. Proposing
or thinking is always a personal opinion.

You shouldn't have backed down.

> Still, I've seen where this road can take a perfectly good package.
> 
> First example being openjdk-7-jre-headless. After a certain DSA update
> about a year ago it started to depend on libpulse0 (because reasons,
> apparently), and boom - a *headless* java install bring about one third
> of X with it. Kind of depends the whole purpose of package from a
> certain perspective - as package description explicitly refers 'non GUI
> Java programs'.
> 
> Second example being libvirt-daemon-system, introduced in jessie, which
> started to depend on policykit-1, because (see #768376) from
> the POV of the maintainer of the package - absolutely nobody (bug
> report states 95% actually) uses libvirt without virt-manager, and
> virt-manager breaks somehow without PolicyKit.
> 
> Oh, and don't get me started on the way they package hplip.

Please do. What is wrong with the packaging of hplip?

-- 
Brian. 

Re: [SOLVED] Re: [jessie] recording line-in using ALSA?

[Reco]

Hi.

On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:54:27 +0200
deloptes  wrote:

> Reco wrote:
> 
> > So basically you're proposing to force the user to install GTK3 (with
> > both C and C++ bindinds) just to install pulseaudio.
> > 
> > There are reasons that this distribution is called Debian, not
> > You-favorite-enterprisey-tangled-dependency-mess, and one of those
> > reasons is a careful placement of dependencies.
> > 
> > Reco
> 
> Ric didn't say he proposes. He said "I think" which is personal opinion. I
> think nowdays it is getting a big problem understanding each other and I
> think it is sad, because we are misinterpreting what the other say which is
> equivalent to not hearing.

My apologies to Ric, you and any other maillist participant just in
case.

Still, I've seen where this road can take a perfectly good package.

First example being openjdk-7-jre-headless. After a certain DSA update
about a year ago it started to depend on libpulse0 (because reasons,
apparently), and boom - a *headless* java install bring about one third
of X with it. Kind of depends the whole purpose of package from a
certain perspective - as package description explicitly refers 'non GUI
Java programs'.

Second example being libvirt-daemon-system, introduced in jessie, which
started to depend on policykit-1, because (see #768376) from
the POV of the maintainer of the package - absolutely nobody (bug
report states 95% actually) uses libvirt without virt-manager, and
virt-manager breaks somehow without PolicyKit.

Oh, and don't get me started on the way they package hplip.

So, one must be very careful when wishing for upgrading certain
dependencies.


PS Is it OK to CC you? My e-mail client insists on it for some reason.

Reco

Re: [SOLVED] Re: [jessie] recording line-in using ALSA?

[deloptes]

Reco wrote:

> So basically you're proposing to force the user to install GTK3 (with
> both C and C++ bindinds) just to install pulseaudio.
> 
> There are reasons that this distribution is called Debian, not
> You-favorite-enterprisey-tangled-dependency-mess, and one of those
> reasons is a careful placement of dependencies.
> 
> Reco

Ric didn't say he proposes. He said "I think" which is personal opinion. I
think nowdays it is getting a big problem understanding each other and I
think it is sad, because we are misinterpreting what the other say which is
equivalent to not hearing.

regards

Re: [SOLVED] Re: [jessie] recording line-in using ALSA?

[Reco]

Hi.

On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 12:34:44 -0400
Ric Moore  wrote:

> On 10/28/2016 05:39 PM, deloptes wrote:
> > Ric Moore wrote:
> >
> >> pavucontrol should have been a depend on pulseaudio since the beginning
> >> as you can't do squat without it. Try to remove firefox and you lose
> >> your entire desktop. Go figure. Ric
> >
> > Thank you Ric.
> >
> > I don't think pavucontrol depends on pulseaudio
> >
> > apt-cache show pulseaudio
> > Package: pulseaudio
> > Suggests: pavumeter, pavucontrol, paman, paprefs
> 
> Right, pavucontrol is a suggest instead of a depend. I think it should 
> be a depend.

So basically you're proposing to force the user to install GTK3 (with
both C and C++ bindinds) just to install pulseaudio.

There are reasons that this distribution is called Debian, not
You-favorite-enterprisey-tangled-dependency-mess, and one of those
reasons is a careful placement of dependencies.

Reco

Re: [SOLVED] Re: [jessie] recording line-in using ALSA?

[Ric Moore]

On 10/28/2016 05:39 PM, deloptes wrote:

Ric Moore wrote:


pavucontrol should have been a depend on pulseaudio since the beginning
as you can't do squat without it. Try to remove firefox and you lose
your entire desktop. Go figure. Ric


Thank you Ric.

I don't think pavucontrol depends on pulseaudio

apt-cache show pulseaudio
Package: pulseaudio
Suggests: pavumeter, pavucontrol, paman, paprefs


Right, pavucontrol is a suggest instead of a depend. I think it should 
be a depend.



--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: [SOLVED] Re: [jessie] recording line-in using ALSA?

[deloptes]

Ric Moore wrote:

> pavucontrol should have been a depend on pulseaudio since the beginning
> as you can't do squat without it. Try to remove firefox and you lose
> your entire desktop. Go figure. Ric

Thank you Ric.

I don't think pavucontrol depends on pulseaudio

apt-cache show pulseaudio
Package: pulseaudio
Suggests: pavumeter, pavucontrol, paman, paprefs

Re: [SOLVED] Re: [jessie] recording line-in using ALSA?

[Ric Moore]

On 10/27/2016 03:58 PM, D. R. Evans wrote:

deloptes wrote on 10/27/2016 12:14 PM:





It looks reasonable. What you can do, since you have pulse installed, you
could run pavucontrol and setup the input devices properly. Perhaps your
problem is visible there - muted/default etc. I usually start recording and
run pavucontrol, navigate to "Input Devices" and look at the indicator - it
should show the level of input, play with those until it works :)



Excellent!

pavucontrol wasn't installed, but I installed it and played with the Input
Devices tab.

And that's when I discovered that I should have been recording from "Aux"
rather than from "Line".

When I configured ALSA to record from Aux on hw:0,0, it worked perfectly.

Thank you so much for suggesting pavucontrol. FWIW, I had been thinking all
along that this problem would be so much easier to solve if only there were a
way to monitor what was happening in real time; as far as I can tell, ALSA
itself doesn't provide any way to do that :-(

Thank you again.


pavucontrol should have been a depend on pulseaudio since the beginning 
as you can't do squat without it. Try to remove firefox and you lose 
your entire desktop. Go figure. Ric



--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html