Re: An *operator's guide to fvwm?

[David Wright]

On Mon 26 Feb 2018 at 20:24:28 (+0100), Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Richard Owlett wrote:
> > Without *ANY* customization, how much more can fvwm do for me?
> 
> Without any customization by anybody it is quite useless.

Lest this give the wrong impression to someone coming across this
post, it's a bit harsh, and would assume that you'd done nothing
with ~/.xsession either.

I hid my ~/.fvwm and restarted fvwm to take a look at the default
configuration. You seem to get 2x2 desks each with 2x2 viewports,
its pager at top right (underneath my clock as it happened), with a
window selector down the right margin. The root window had a well-
populated menu of applications and utilities.

Because I don't use desks but a 5x4 set of viewports, I was limited
in what I could reach as three of the desks are empty. Restoring
.fvwm and restarting fvwm brought everything back to usual.

When I ran startx with no .fvwm, everything in my .xsession started
normally except that many of the xterms were stacked on top of each
other because they were all trapped in a 2x2 desk instead of 5x4.
(Restoring my .fvwm and restarting would still involve dragging
a lot of xterms to their proper places; I didn't bother, but went
back to startx.)

> With reasonable customization by an initial ~/.fvwm2rc and some additions
> by myself, it does for me:
> 
> - Add handles to the windows so i can move, resize, iconify them, and
>   make them "sticky" to the glass of the screen.
> 
> - Define meaning of mouse buttons.

The left one certainly worked in the root window.

> - Set background and create a first xterm after startup of the X Window
>   System.

My dynamic background colours were functioning. Everything in
.xsession started normally.

> - Provide FvwmPager by which i switch between the 8 pages of my
>   virtual desktop.

As I said, a pager was there (obviously lacking my usual buttons).

> - Install FvwmButtons panel with FvwmPager, xclock, "Fvwm2" button with
>   a master menu (very rarely used by me), and a button that creates
>   xterms with bash sessions (often used).
> 
> - Define and perform my private definition of the MS-Windows keys
>   of my keybard:
> Key Super_L A N RaiseLower
> Key Super_R A N RaiseLower
> 
> - Refrain from annoying me with xterm icons with fully active shell dialog:
> Style "XTerm"   IconOverride
> Style "XTerm"   Icon display.xpm
> 
> The rest of graphical programs is started by shell comands in xterms:
> Web browser, PDF reader, own programs ...

Again, a populated root menu is there.

Just to give an indication of fvwm's stability, my ~/.fvwm/config
is dated 2002-04-08. It has 9 hooks: I use init-restart and
post (my main configuration) but I also read "last-post" hook in
the latter. Both init-restart amd last-post are symlinks to
-$HOSTNAME-$[screen] variants, though I haven't used a second
$[screen] since retiring.

Back then, the screens were on separate VDUs differing in size and
resolution. Not xinerama: only the mouse could move between them.
But I've always been accustomed to just one desk per screen.

Going back even further, I remember running X with three resolutions
configured (CtrlAlt+ and CtrlAlt- rotated through the alternatives).
I think this is why I always called fvwm's viewports (as above) by
the term "pages", which is also used by xterm. To me, at that time,
a viewport was the part of the root window you could see at any time,
and it slid around when you moved the mouse against the edge, like
sliding a large placemat on a tray. Viewports in this sense were
the bread and butter of graphics systems like eg GINO.

Cheers,
David.

Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?

[Charlie S]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:17:46 -0600 John Hasler sent:

> BTW you should be editing ~/.fvwm/config if you are using the current
> release.  The 2 was dropped from fvwm2 a long time ago and all fvwm
> related files placed under ~/.fvwm with config being the default
> configuration file.

After contemplation, my reply is:

Thank you,

Learnt something else. I was still using fvwm2rc.

Charlie

Re: An *operator's guide to fvwm?

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/26/2018 01:24 PM, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

Richard Owlett wrote:

Without *ANY* customization, how much more can fvwm do for me?


Without any customization by anybody it is quite useless.


*ROFL*
It may have aesthetic problems. BUT
My real world needs (not glittzy desires) were handled by my:
  1. 8k Commodore PET with "Chiclets" keyboard.
  2. dual 8" floppy, 16k ram, 2MHZ Z80 S100 system.
  3. early production Kaypro 10.
Are you saying that current Debian encumbered with unmodified fvwm can 
not match the productivity of that list?


BTW I *do* have a sense of humor and/or absurd.
Will not admit to what relatives and friends say.

For perspective, I believe adding more than mate-core, marco, and 
Xsystem to a base CLI oriented base Debian install is overkill ;/


Thanks to all.
You may not consider my goals sane.
But you are giving me what I need.

Re: An *operator's guide to fvwm?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Richard Owlett wrote:
> Without *ANY* customization, how much more can fvwm do for me?

Without any customization by anybody it is quite useless.

With reasonable customization by an initial ~/.fvwm2rc and some additions
by myself, it does for me:

- Add handles to the windows so i can move, resize, iconify them, and
  make them "sticky" to the glass of the screen.

- Define meaning of mouse buttons.

- Set background and create a first xterm after startup of the X Window
  System.

- Provide FvwmPager by which i switch between the 8 pages of my
  virtual desktop.

- Install FvwmButtons panel with FvwmPager, xclock, "Fvwm2" button with
  a master menu (very rarely used by me), and a button that creates
  xterms with bash sessions (often used).

- Define and perform my private definition of the MS-Windows keys
  of my keybard:
Key Super_L A N RaiseLower
Key Super_R A N RaiseLower

- Refrain from annoying me with xterm icons with fully active shell dialog:
Style "XTerm"   IconOverride
Style "XTerm"   Icon display.xpm

The rest of graphical programs is started by shell comands in xterms:
Web browser, PDF reader, own programs ...


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?

[David Wright]

On Mon 26 Feb 2018 at 12:42:25 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 02/26/2018 10:54 AM, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >Am 2018-02-26 hackte Richard Owlett in die Tasten:
> >>I am finding lots of information on detailed low level configuration:
> >>e.g. 
> >>
> >>I'm using almost a default install changing only the wallpaper and the
> >>default font size for menus.
> >>
> >>I'm getting swamped by too much fine detail. It's not only a case of
> >>"not seeing the forest for the trees" but also "not seeing the trees for
> >>the leaves"
> >>
> >>Suggestions?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >#fvwm on 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ><
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Selecting from contents of items in your list:
> 1. https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-gui-list/1998-November/msg00074.html
>could be thought of as a HOWTO write what I'm looking for.
> 2. 
> http://www.fvwm.org/documentation/faq/#what-exactly-is-the-difference-between-a-desk-a-page-and-the-screen
>is a sample of the writing style/format of what I'm looking.
>As a bonus, it all but explicitly states that the "out of the
> box" configuration of fvwm solves my *PROBLEM*.
> 
> Without *ANY* customization, how much more can fvwm do for me?
> Perhaps I should have used "good advertising copy" rather than
> _Owner's Manual_ or _Operator's Manual_ as an example of what I'm
> looking for.

After making sure you've got a backup of a "good" .fvwm/config
it's very easy to experiment with your configuration. Open the file
in an editor, make some changes and save the file. (Don't exit.)

Click in the root window and you should be able to find a Restart item
on the menu. Click on it and for a moment the windows will all lose
their decorations.  A moment later, they return and you're now running
the new configuration.

Carry on editing, and try something else…ad infinitum.

Cheers,
David.

Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/26/2018 12:12 PM, Curt wrote:

On 2018-02-26, Richard Owlett  wrote:


Ahh, but a Flocken Elektrowagen might today may be more functional in
some circumstances than a Rolls Royce.



http://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/programming/useful/fvwm/index.html


((yes)^((YES)^((*YES*)^(1000

http://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/programming/useful/fvwm/viewports/index.html 
*EXPLICITLY* states what I could only infer. It also suggests that if I 
replace whatever window manager MATE uses with fvwm I can have the good 
parts of MATE (its familiarity) and the environmental separation I've 
been chasing. I.E. "I can have my cake and eat it too!"







I only read the nice discussion of "Viewports & Workspaces"; it doesn't tell
you how to do anything (that's elsewhere), but does clarify the terminology.

Maybe somebody already gave you this link (excuse the redundancy if
that's so).

Actually I kind of want a viewport now for myself (I mean one greater
than the physical size of my screen--for the moment it is *exactly* the
size of my physical screen (because I don't really have one really I
guess).

Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/26/2018 10:54 AM, Michelle Konzack wrote:

Hi,

Am 2018-02-26 hackte Richard Owlett in die Tasten:

I am finding lots of information on detailed low level configuration:
e.g. 

I'm using almost a default install changing only the wallpaper and the
default font size for menus.

I'm getting swamped by too much fine detail. It's not only a case of
"not seeing the forest for the trees" but also "not seeing the trees for
the leaves"

Suggestions?





#fvwm on 








<





Selecting from contents of items in your list:
1. 
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-gui-list/1998-November/msg00074.html

   could be thought of as a HOWTO write what I'm looking for.
2. 
http://www.fvwm.org/documentation/faq/#what-exactly-is-the-difference-between-a-desk-a-page-and-the-screen

   is a sample of the writing style/format of what I'm looking.
   As a bonus, it all but explicitly states that the "out of the box" 
configuration of fvwm solves my *PROBLEM*.


Without *ANY* customization, how much more can fvwm do for me?
Perhaps I should have used "good advertising copy" rather than _Owner's 
Manual_ or _Operator's Manual_ as an example of what I'm looking for.


Thanks.

Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?

[Curt]

On 2018-02-26, Richard Owlett  wrote:
>
> Ahh, but a Flocken Elektrowagen might today may be more functional in 
> some circumstances than a Rolls Royce.
>

http://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/programming/useful/fvwm/index.html

I only read the nice discussion of "Viewports & Workspaces"; it doesn't tell
you how to do anything (that's elsewhere), but does clarify the terminology.

Maybe somebody already gave you this link (excuse the redundancy if
that's so).

Actually I kind of want a viewport now for myself (I mean one greater
than the physical size of my screen--for the moment it is *exactly* the
size of my physical screen (because I don't really have one really I
guess).

-- 
“Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”
-Oscar Wilde

Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?

[John Hasler]

Richard Owlett writes:
> I remember 026's as the normal input device and a UART was square
> inches of a double sided board.

So do I.  I kept on learning.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/26/2018 10:32 AM, Steve McIntyre wrote:

Richard Owlett wrote:

On 02/26/2018 09:23 AM, David Wright wrote:


https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/02/msg00752.html

Two of the references there were straightforward to use when I posted
this, but now you'll have to temporarily accept an expired certificate.


Already had them bookmarked.
They, like , might be
compared to an _Owner's Manual". I'm looking for something more like an
_Operator's Manual_.

The target audience of what I'm looking for would have no need to edit
.fvwm2rc .

I've already made some modifications to .fvwm2rc and have in mind some
more for which I'll be doing a detailed read of references I already have.


For most people, fvwm usage *is* at the level of editing the
config. Depending on the changes you might have made in the config, it
can behave massively differently to how it works for somebody
else. The default config as-shipped is basically just a bare-bones
example of what you might do with fvwm; it's a framework for you to
build your own desktop.



Ahh, but a Flocken Elektrowagen might today may be more functional in 
some circumstances than a Rolls Royce.

Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/26/2018 10:17 AM, John Hasler wrote:

Richard Owlett writes:

Already had them bookmarked.  They, like
, might be compared to an
_Owner's Manual". I'm looking for something more like an _Operator's
Manual_.



The target audience of what I'm looking for would have no need to edit
.fvwm2rc .


The target market for fvwm is people like me who want a sort of diy
desktop environment kit.


Yes but 
I have a specific need. Might be served by KDE workspaces (ww?).
My my reading suggests Desktops of Pages in fvwm may be appropriate.
After wandering down some strange byways I got fvwm from Debian 
repository installed. It works out of the box.


I need an orientation to fvwm in its default configuration.
I beginning to suspect it may *WITHOUT TWEAKING* get the job done. Just 
not by any facility of the path I was contemplating. I.E. To get from 
Staten Island to Santa Cruz one need not use the Suez Canal.



If you want your window manager to do what you
want rather than what someone else thinks you should be comfortable with
you have to learn how to make it do what you want.  The more choices,
the more there is to learn.


I remember 026's as the normal input device and a UART was square inches 
of a double sided board.




BTW you should be editing ~/.fvwm/config if you are using the current
release.  The 2 was dropped from fvwm2 a long time ago and all fvwm
related files placed under ~/.fvwm with config being the default
configuration file.



That was a typo. I've been reading too much old documentation.

Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?

[Michelle Konzack]

Hi,

Am 2018-02-26 hackte Richard Owlett in die Tasten:
> I am finding lots of information on detailed low level configuration:
> e.g. 
>
> I'm using almost a default install changing only the wallpaper and the
> default font size for menus.
>
> I'm getting swamped by too much fine detail. It's not only a case of
> "not seeing the forest for the trees" but also "not seeing the trees for
> the leaves"
>
> Suggestions?




#fvwm on 








<

-- 
Michelle KonzackMiila ITSystems @ TDnet
GNU/Linux Developer 00372-54541400

Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?

[Steve McIntyre]

Richard Owlett wrote:
>On 02/26/2018 09:23 AM, David Wright wrote:
>> 
>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/02/msg00752.html
>> 
>> Two of the references there were straightforward to use when I posted
>> this, but now you'll have to temporarily accept an expired certificate.
>
>Already had them bookmarked.
>They, like , might be 
>compared to an _Owner's Manual". I'm looking for something more like an 
>_Operator's Manual_.
>
>The target audience of what I'm looking for would have no need to edit 
>.fvwm2rc .
>
>I've already made some modifications to .fvwm2rc and have in mind some 
>more for which I'll be doing a detailed read of references I already have.

For most people, fvwm usage *is* at the level of editing the
config. Depending on the changes you might have made in the config, it
can behave massively differently to how it works for somebody
else. The default config as-shipped is basically just a bare-bones
example of what you might do with fvwm; it's a framework for you to
build your own desktop.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
"Every time you use Tcl, God kills a kitten." -- Malcolm Ray

Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?

[John Hasler]

Richard Owlett writes:
> Already had them bookmarked.  They, like
> , might be compared to an
> _Owner's Manual". I'm looking for something more like an _Operator's
> Manual_.

> The target audience of what I'm looking for would have no need to edit
> .fvwm2rc .

The target market for fvwm is people like me who want a sort of diy
desktop environment kit.  If you want your window manager to do what you
want rather than what someone else thinks you should be comfortable with
you have to learn how to make it do what you want.  The more choices,
the more there is to learn.

BTW you should be editing ~/.fvwm/config if you are using the current
release.  The 2 was dropped from fvwm2 a long time ago and all fvwm
related files placed under ~/.fvwm with config being the default
configuration file.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/26/2018 09:23 AM, David Wright wrote:

On Mon 26 Feb 2018 at 08:15:44 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:

I am finding lots of information on detailed low level configuration:
e.g. 

I'm using almost a default install changing only the wallpaper and
the default font size for menus.

I'm getting swamped by too much fine detail. It's not only a case of
"not seeing the forest for the trees" but also "not seeing the trees
for the leaves"

Suggestions?


https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/02/msg00752.html

Two of the references there were straightforward to use when I posted
this, but now you'll have to temporarily accept an expired certificate.



Already had them bookmarked.
They, like , might be 
compared to an _Owner's Manual". I'm looking for something more like an 
_Operator's Manual_.


The target audience of what I'm looking for would have no need to edit 
.fvwm2rc .


I've already made some modifications to .fvwm2rc and have in mind some 
more for which I'll be doing a detailed read of references I already have.

Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?

[David Wright]

On Mon 26 Feb 2018 at 08:15:44 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
> I am finding lots of information on detailed low level configuration:
> e.g. 
> 
> I'm using almost a default install changing only the wallpaper and
> the default font size for menus.
> 
> I'm getting swamped by too much fine detail. It's not only a case of
> "not seeing the forest for the trees" but also "not seeing the trees
> for the leaves"
> 
> Suggestions?

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/02/msg00752.html

Two of the references there were straightforward to use when I posted
this, but now you'll have to temporarily accept an expired certificate.

> TIA

Don't mention it.

Cheers,
David.

Re: An *operator's guide to fvwm?

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/26/2018 08:54 AM, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

Richard Owlett wrote:

http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html


That's a quick tour through a few gestures of fvwm.
Maybe it gives you some ideas for playing with the configuration.
But obviously you want something different.



"not seeing the trees for the leaves"


Ok. What forest do you want to be in and what trees do you want to hug ?
I.e. what are the results you want to achieve ?


Extending the analogy, perhaps to the breaking point, I want to view the 
forest from 10,000 feet.




We have several fvwm users here. Maybe one of us has a solution at hand.
After some exercise and with the man pages or web tutorials you will have
better chances to get what you need.



Assume your department hires a new computer literate clerk typist.
Your system administrator has configured all your machines.
What would the new clerk need/want to read to do useful work.

Re: An *operator's guide to fvwm?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Richard Owlett wrote:
> http://zensites.net/fvwm/guide/index.html

That's a quick tour through a few gestures of fvwm.
Maybe it gives you some ideas for playing with the configuration.
But obviously you want something different.


> "not seeing the trees for the leaves"

Ok. What forest do you want to be in and what trees do you want to hug ?
I.e. what are the results you want to achieve ?

We have several fvwm users here. Maybe one of us has a solution at hand.
After some exercise and with the man pages or web tutorials you will have
better chances to get what you need.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: An *operator's" guide to fvwm?

[Curt]

On 2018-02-26, Richard Owlett  wrote:
> I am finding lots of information on detailed low level configuration:
> e.g. 
>
> I'm using almost a default install changing only the wallpaper and the 
> default font size for menus.
>
> I'm getting swamped by too much fine detail. It's not only a case of 
> "not seeing the forest for the trees" but also "not seeing the trees for 
> the leaves"

Try the "Lumberjack" or "Deciduous" theme.

> Suggestions?
> TIA
>
>
>


-- 
“Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”
-Oscar Wilde