Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Patrick Bartek]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Jimmy Johnson wrote:

> On 04/19/2016 12:49 PM, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> > On 04/16/2016 03:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >>
> >> Much to my regret (and others, too, I'm sure), yesterday, on 15
> >> April 2016, the beginning of the end began for Wheezy. Google, as
> >> announced months ago, finally ceased support for its browser on
> >> Wheezy.  I double checked just to be sure, and in the course of
> >> that check also discovered "official" Debian support for Wheezy
> >> will cease in a little over a week on 26 April 2016 -- just 3
> >> years after its release. However, it will automatically enter LTS
> >> until 2018 at which time all support ceases and EOL "officially"
> >> occurs.
> >>
> >> Well, at least I have time to look for an alternative. Maybe,
> >> Devuan will be viable by then, but I doubt it.  Or Debian will
> >> offer a choice of inits as a standard option during installs on
> >> future releases, but I very much doubt it.
> >>
> >> B
> >
> > Ubuntu using upstart,
> > trusty   14.04 LTS Release Date 2014-04-17 End Of Life 2019-04
> > precise  12.04 LTS Release Date 2012-04-26 End Of Life 2017-04
> 
> Some other systems to look at are, Kali Linux https://www.kali.org/ - 
> EXE GNU/Linux http://exegnulinux.net/ - Q40S http://q4os.org/ I have 
> them all installed.  Some of these are built from bootstrap and are
> not remasters of other systems, all are ".deb" systems.

Thanks.  I'll take a look.

B

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Patrick Bartek]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Jimmy Johnson wrote:

> On 04/16/2016 03:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >
> > Much to my regret (and others, too, I'm sure), yesterday, on 15
> > April 2016, the beginning of the end began for Wheezy. Google, as
> > announced months ago, finally ceased support for its browser on
> > Wheezy.  I double checked just to be sure, and in the course of
> > that check also discovered "official" Debian support for Wheezy
> > will cease in a little over a week on 26 April 2016 -- just 3 years
> > after its release.  However, it will automatically enter LTS until
> > 2018 at which time all support ceases and EOL "officially" occurs.
> >
> > Well, at least I have time to look for an alternative. Maybe,
> > Devuan will be viable by then, but I doubt it.  Or Debian will
> > offer a choice of inits as a standard option during installs on
> > future releases, but I very much doubt it.
> >
> > B
> 
> Ubuntu using upstart,
> trusty   14.04 LTS Release Date 2014-04-17 End Of Life 2019-04
> precise  12.04 LTS Release Date 2012-04-26 End Of Life 2017-04

Thanks, but unfortunately, I don't like Ubuntu.  Never have.  From the
first time I tested it years ago, it always rubbed me the wrong way.

B

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 08:30:43AM -0400, Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> You are missing that the change to systemd makes most of the knowledge
> patiently acquired over the years running and caring for a Linux system has
> suddenly become unusable.

As a former sysadmin wrangling frankly horrid in-house init scripts,
I'll drink to that!

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Jimmy Johnson]

On 04/19/2016 12:49 PM, Jimmy Johnson wrote:

On 04/16/2016 03:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:


Much to my regret (and others, too, I'm sure), yesterday, on 15 April
2016, the beginning of the end began for Wheezy. Google, as announced
months ago, finally ceased support for its browser on Wheezy.  I
double checked just to be sure, and in the course of that check also
discovered "official" Debian support for Wheezy will cease in a little
over a week on 26 April 2016 -- just 3 years after its release.
However, it will automatically enter LTS until 2018 at which time all
support ceases and EOL "officially" occurs.

Well, at least I have time to look for an alternative. Maybe, Devuan
will be viable by then, but I doubt it.  Or Debian will offer a choice
of inits as a standard option during installs on future releases, but
I very much doubt it.

B


Ubuntu using upstart,
trusty   14.04 LTS Release Date 2014-04-17 End Of Life 2019-04
precise  12.04 LTS Release Date 2012-04-26 End Of Life 2017-04


Some other systems to look at are, Kali Linux https://www.kali.org/ - 
EXE GNU/Linux http://exegnulinux.net/ - Q40S http://q4os.org/ I have 
them all installed.  Some of these are built from bootstrap and are not 
remasters of other systems, all are ".deb" systems.

--
Kali Linux - KDE 4.14.2  - EXT4 - AMD64 at sda10
Registered Linux User #380263

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Jimmy Johnson]

On 04/16/2016 03:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:


Much to my regret (and others, too, I'm sure), yesterday, on 15 April 2016, the beginning of the 
end began for Wheezy. Google, as announced months ago, finally ceased support for its browser on 
Wheezy.  I double checked just to be sure, and in the course of that check also discovered 
"official" Debian support for Wheezy will cease in a little over a week on 26 April 2016 
-- just 3 years after its release.  However, it will automatically enter LTS until 2018 at which 
time all support ceases and EOL "officially" occurs.

Well, at least I have time to look for an alternative. Maybe, Devuan will be 
viable by then, but I doubt it.  Or Debian will offer a choice of inits as a 
standard option during installs on future releases, but I very much doubt it.

B


Ubuntu using upstart,
trusty   14.04 LTS Release Date 2014-04-17 End Of Life 2019-04
precise  12.04 LTS Release Date 2012-04-26 End Of Life 2017-04
--
Jimmy Johnson

Ubuntu 14.04 - KDE 4.13.3 - EXT4 at sda5
Registered Linux User #380263

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Bob Holtzman]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 05:19:46PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2016, Bob Holtzman wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 02:23:08PM +1000, Paul Trevethan wrote:
> > > On Sun, 17 Apr 2016 14:48:56 -0700
> > > Bob Holtzman  wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 09:34:05AM +1000, Paul Trevethan wrote:
> > > > > On Sat, 16 Apr 2016 15:27:17 -0700
> > > > > Patrick Bartek  wrote:
> > > > >   
> > > > > > Much to my regret (and others, too, I'm sure), yesterday, on
> > > > > > 15 April 2016, the beginning of the end began for Wheezy.
> > > > > > Google, as announced months ago, finally ceased support for
> > > > > > its browser on Wheezy.  I double checked just to be sure, and
> > > > > > in the course of that check also discovered "official" Debian
> > > > > > support for Wheezy will cease in a little over a week on 26
> > > > > > April 2016 -- just 3 years after its release.  However, it
> > > > > > will automatically enter LTS until 2018 at which time all
> > > > > > support ceases and EOL "officially" occurs. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Well, at least I have time to look for an alternative. Maybe,
> > > > > > Devuan will be viable by then, but I doubt it.  Or Debian will
> > > > > > offer a choice of inits as a standard option during installs
> > > > > > on future releases, but I very much doubt it.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > B
> > > > > >   
> > > > > 
> > > > > If you want a rock solid Debian based system with no systemd -
> > > > > check out Antix distribution.  
> > > > 
> > > > There is no mail list, only a forum. It shows systemd in it's
> > > > package list. 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Available if you want it in the repos - not installed. Read the
> > > forum notes, it is designed as non-systemd.
> > 
> > It may well be designed as non-systemd but the systend package is
> > still listed. Why? The lack of a mail list still remains AFAICT.
> 
> Certain systemd libraries are dependencies for things like GNOME or
> udev. So, even if you're using an init other than systemd's which can
> be totally absent from the system, you still need some parts of it
> for some things to work. One of the reasons so many disapprove of it.

Got it. Thanks.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
A man is a man who will fight with a sword or
conquer Mt. Everest in snow. But the bravest of all
owns a '34 Ford and tries for six thousand in low.

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Patrick Bartek]

On Mon, 18 Apr 2016, Bob Holtzman wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 02:23:08PM +1000, Paul Trevethan wrote:
> > On Sun, 17 Apr 2016 14:48:56 -0700
> > Bob Holtzman  wrote:
> > 
> > > On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 09:34:05AM +1000, Paul Trevethan wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 16 Apr 2016 15:27:17 -0700
> > > > Patrick Bartek  wrote:
> > > >   
> > > > > Much to my regret (and others, too, I'm sure), yesterday, on
> > > > > 15 April 2016, the beginning of the end began for Wheezy.
> > > > > Google, as announced months ago, finally ceased support for
> > > > > its browser on Wheezy.  I double checked just to be sure, and
> > > > > in the course of that check also discovered "official" Debian
> > > > > support for Wheezy will cease in a little over a week on 26
> > > > > April 2016 -- just 3 years after its release.  However, it
> > > > > will automatically enter LTS until 2018 at which time all
> > > > > support ceases and EOL "officially" occurs. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Well, at least I have time to look for an alternative. Maybe,
> > > > > Devuan will be viable by then, but I doubt it.  Or Debian will
> > > > > offer a choice of inits as a standard option during installs
> > > > > on future releases, but I very much doubt it.
> > > > > 
> > > > > B
> > > > >   
> > > > 
> > > > If you want a rock solid Debian based system with no systemd -
> > > > check out Antix distribution.  
> > > 
> > > There is no mail list, only a forum. It shows systemd in it's
> > > package list. 
> > > 
> > 
> > Available if you want it in the repos - not installed. Read the
> > forum notes, it is designed as non-systemd.
> 
> It may well be designed as non-systemd but the systend package is
> still listed. Why? The lack of a mail list still remains AFAICT.

Certain systemd libraries are dependencies for things like GNOME or
udev. So, even if you're using an init other than systemd's which can
be totally absent from the system, you still need some parts of it
for some things to work. One of the reasons so many disapprove of it.

B

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Patrick Bartek]

On Sun, 17 Apr 2016, Michael Milliman wrote:

> 
> 
> On 04/17/2016 06:59 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Sun, 17 Apr 2016, Michael Milliman wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On 04/16/2016 07:52 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >> choice of inits as a standard option during installs on future
> >> releases, but I very much doubt it.
> >>
> >> B
> >>
> >> I use Linux Mint on one of my machines.  It is init based, not
> >> systemd, and has Debian and Ubuntu as it's underpinnings.  All of
> >> the familiar things work great (apt, and all other packages I have
> >> used under straight Debian).  I think you might like that
> >> distribution as well. You can check out their home page at
> >> https://www.linuxmint.com.  I still have Debian running on my
> >> server system (Jessie with systemd), but I really like the Linux
> >> Mint system with init as well.  I've never really liked systemd,
> >> though I must admit it does work and do the job -- I just like the
> >> simplicity of the init system better.  Admittedly, I may well be
> >> undereducated on systemd resulting in my prejudice.
> > I'm evaluating a standard install of Mint (XFCE) running in
> > VirtualBox. No problems.  And right, it uses Upstart as the init,
> > but still has systemd files everywhere.  For dependency issues, I'm
> > sure.  However, I've yet to check if I can do a minimal terminal
> > install, and build off it with just X, a window manager, and a
> > panel.  I like my system kept small and light -- no extraneous crap
> > like you get and never use, and can't uninstall due to dependencies
> > of the desktop environment.
> >
> > My objection to systemd is philosophical:  It's contrary to the Unix
> > credo of simplicity, an OS busybody as it were.
> >
> > B
> >
> Yes, Linux does seem to be getting away from some of its original 
> philosophy in general.  We are seeing many more do-everything types
> of programs rather than the one program one job type of thing. Linux
> used to be keep it simple, and have one program do one single job
> very well, and then combine those programs to get the end result that
> you wanted. Not so much any more. Nevertheless, IMHO Linux is far
> superior to the other options available, and Debian for all of the
> criticism I've seen about it, is one of the very best distributions,
> systemd not withstanding.

To most, complex solutions for simple problems is considered
"progress." That's what is being "taught" these days, unfortunately.
KISS has always worked well for me.  But then I've always been a
defiant, question all, accept-nothing-without-proof boat rocker.  Not
enough of us around anymore these days.

Yes, Debian's development philosophy was the main reason I ultimately
chose it for my personal systems starting with Sarge on a Thinkpad
240X.  Other versions on other systems followed.  But now after the
systemd ballyhoo, I'm searching for a replacement.  And I don't care how
well systemd works or how stable it is. It does more than an init system
should.  And having it (or even part of it) as a basic system
dependency? Ridiculous.

B  

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!] (caution: thread deviation)

[John L. Ries]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I found systemd to be ridiculously 
counterintuitive and poorly documented when I was first exposed to it.  To this 
day, the standard GUI configurator for it (systemadm) is so limited as to be 
nearly useless; and I find hand-configuring a new service to be a major 
exercise only to be undertaken with several manpages open.  It's better now, 
but I'm not persuaded that the learning curve was worth the supposed benefits 
of the new system.
Slackware's old fashioned BSD-style startup scripts are starting to look very 
attractive to me (I don't have to learn a new language to write or customize 
them).

On April 17, 2016 6:00:10 AM MDT, Eike Lantzsch  wrote:
>On Sunday 17 April 2016 11:48:16 Mark Fletcher wrote:
>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:19 PM Michael Milliman <
>> 
>> michael.e.milli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I've never really
>> > liked systemd, though I must admit it does work and do the job -- I
>just
>> > like the simplicity of the init system better.  Admittedly, I may
>well
>> > be undereducated on systemd resulting in my prejudice.
>> 
>> Speaking of prejudice -- question to the list in general -- why the
>vitriol
>> in the linux community about systemd? I read the "I'm changing
>distros
>> because I don't like systemd" type blog posts, and the "Debian devs
>are
>> evil for forcing systemd on us" and so on -- and then I tried it.
>I've even
>> built a LFS system using it. I really, really can't see what the fuss
>is
>> about. Yes, it's complicated, but then init was quite capable of
>confusing
>> the living daylights out of me as well...
>> 
>> It seems the emotions, even now, are running too high to be simply
>about
>> "if it ain't broke don't fix it". What am I missing?
>> 
>> Mark
>
>All the pros and cons of system.d have been discussed and ranted about
>here 
>and can be easily found in the archives. I personally don't think that
>it is 
>necessary to go through those discussions again.
>
>Easily one can slip some emotional comment [sigh!] (sic) into a posting
>but it 
>is unnecessary to jump on it - no?
>
>All the best to y'all
>Eike

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Bob Holtzman]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 02:23:08PM +1000, Paul Trevethan wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2016 14:48:56 -0700
> Bob Holtzman  wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 09:34:05AM +1000, Paul Trevethan wrote:
> > > On Sat, 16 Apr 2016 15:27:17 -0700
> > > Patrick Bartek  wrote:
> > >   
> > > > Much to my regret (and others, too, I'm sure), yesterday, on 15
> > > > April 2016, the beginning of the end began for Wheezy. Google, as
> > > > announced months ago, finally ceased support for its browser on
> > > > Wheezy.  I double checked just to be sure, and in the course of
> > > > that check also discovered "official" Debian support for Wheezy
> > > > will cease in a little over a week on 26 April 2016 -- just 3
> > > > years after its release.  However, it will automatically enter
> > > > LTS until 2018 at which time all support ceases and EOL
> > > > "officially" occurs. 
> > > > 
> > > > Well, at least I have time to look for an alternative. Maybe,
> > > > Devuan will be viable by then, but I doubt it.  Or Debian will
> > > > offer a choice of inits as a standard option during installs on
> > > > future releases, but I very much doubt it.
> > > > 
> > > > B
> > > >   
> > > 
> > > If you want a rock solid Debian based system with no systemd - check
> > > out Antix distribution.  
> > 
> > There is no mail list, only a forum. It shows systemd in it's package
> > list. 
> > 
> 
> Available if you want it in the repos - not installed. Read the forum
> notes, it is designed as non-systemd.

It may well be designed as non-systemd but the systend package is still
listed. Why? The lack of a mail list still remains AFAICT.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
A man is a man who will fight with a sword or
conquer Mt. Everest in snow. But the bravest of all
owns a '34 Ford and tries for six thousand in low.

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Rick Thomas]

On Apr 17, 2016, at 5:30 AM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI 
 wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Apr 2016 11:48:16 +
> Mark Fletcher  wrote:
> 
>> It seems the emotions, even now, are running too high to be simply about
>> "if it ain't broke don't fix it". What am I missing?
> 
> You are missing that the change to systemd makes most of the knowledge 
> patiently acquired over the years running and caring for a Linux system has 
> suddenly become unusable.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ron.

For me, this is the main reason that I at first resisted the switch to systemd 
— I didn’t want to spend a lot of time learning a whole new set of concepts for 
a task I used to understand.  With time and experience, I’m beginning to relax 
a bit.  I now feel confident that I could, with study and effort, accomplish 
anything I really need to do with the systemd tools, but I’ve still got a lot 
more to learn.  I really wish I had a “Systemd for smart dummies (who used to 
think they knew everything there was to know about LSB init)” document.

There are still a few bugs in the system, though.  The main one that irritates 
me these days is that there does not seem to be any good automatic way to deal 
with the interactions at boot time between md-raid, encryption and the logical 
volume manager.  Getting the right components called when needed in and out of 
the initrd is touchy and fragile.  This area really needs some work.

Enjoy!
Rick

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Michael Milliman]

On 04/17/2016 06:59 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:

On Sun, 17 Apr 2016, Michael Milliman wrote:



On 04/16/2016 07:52 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:

choice of inits as a standard option during installs on future
releases, but I very much doubt it.

B


I use Linux Mint on one of my machines.  It is init based, not
systemd, and has Debian and Ubuntu as it's underpinnings.  All of the
familiar things work great (apt, and all other packages I have used
under straight Debian).  I think you might like that distribution as
well. You can check out their home page at
https://www.linuxmint.com.  I still have Debian running on my server
system (Jessie with systemd), but I really like the Linux Mint system
with init as well.  I've never really liked systemd, though I must
admit it does work and do the job -- I just like the simplicity of
the init system better.  Admittedly, I may well be undereducated on
systemd resulting in my prejudice.

I'm evaluating a standard install of Mint (XFCE) running in VirtualBox.
No problems.  And right, it uses Upstart as the init, but still has
systemd files everywhere.  For dependency issues, I'm sure.  However,
I've yet to check if I can do a minimal terminal install, and build off
it with just X, a window manager, and a panel.  I like my system
kept small and light -- no extraneous crap like you get and never use,
and can't uninstall due to dependencies of the desktop environment.

My objection to systemd is philosophical:  It's contrary to the Unix
credo of simplicity, an OS busybody as it were.

B

Yes, Linux does seem to be getting away from some of its original 
philosophy in general.  We are seeing many more do-everything types of 
programs rather than the one program one job type of thing. Linux used 
to be keep it simple, and have one program do one single job very well, 
and then combine those programs to get the end result that you wanted.  
Not so much any more. Nevertheless, IMHO Linux is far superior to the 
other options available, and Debian for all of the criticism I've seen 
about it, is one of the very best distributions, systemd not withstanding.


--
Mike

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Paul Trevethan]

On Sun, 17 Apr 2016 14:48:56 -0700
Bob Holtzman  wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 09:34:05AM +1000, Paul Trevethan wrote:
> > On Sat, 16 Apr 2016 15:27:17 -0700
> > Patrick Bartek  wrote:
> >   
> > > Much to my regret (and others, too, I'm sure), yesterday, on 15
> > > April 2016, the beginning of the end began for Wheezy. Google, as
> > > announced months ago, finally ceased support for its browser on
> > > Wheezy.  I double checked just to be sure, and in the course of
> > > that check also discovered "official" Debian support for Wheezy
> > > will cease in a little over a week on 26 April 2016 -- just 3
> > > years after its release.  However, it will automatically enter
> > > LTS until 2018 at which time all support ceases and EOL
> > > "officially" occurs. 
> > > 
> > > Well, at least I have time to look for an alternative. Maybe,
> > > Devuan will be viable by then, but I doubt it.  Or Debian will
> > > offer a choice of inits as a standard option during installs on
> > > future releases, but I very much doubt it.
> > > 
> > > B
> > >   
> > 
> > If you want a rock solid Debian based system with no systemd - check
> > out Antix distribution.  
> 
> There is no mail list, only a forum. It shows systemd in it's package
> list. 
> 

Available if you want it in the repos - not installed. Read the forum
notes, it is designed as non-systemd.

G

-- 
It is about the Dragons - it was always about the Dragons!

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Patrick Bartek]

On Sun, 17 Apr 2016, Michael Milliman wrote:

> 
> 
> On 04/16/2016 07:52 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >> > >choice of inits as a standard option during installs on future
> >> > >releases, but I very much doubt it.
> >> > >
> >> > >B
> >> > >
> > >
> I use Linux Mint on one of my machines.  It is init based, not
> systemd, and has Debian and Ubuntu as it's underpinnings.  All of the
> familiar things work great (apt, and all other packages I have used
> under straight Debian).  I think you might like that distribution as
> well. You can check out their home page at
> https://www.linuxmint.com.  I still have Debian running on my server
> system (Jessie with systemd), but I really like the Linux Mint system
> with init as well.  I've never really liked systemd, though I must
> admit it does work and do the job -- I just like the simplicity of
> the init system better.  Admittedly, I may well be undereducated on
> systemd resulting in my prejudice.

I'm evaluating a standard install of Mint (XFCE) running in VirtualBox.
No problems.  And right, it uses Upstart as the init, but still has
systemd files everywhere.  For dependency issues, I'm sure.  However,
I've yet to check if I can do a minimal terminal install, and build off
it with just X, a window manager, and a panel.  I like my system
kept small and light -- no extraneous crap like you get and never use,
and can't uninstall due to dependencies of the desktop environment.

My objection to systemd is philosophical:  It's contrary to the Unix
credo of simplicity, an OS busybody as it were.

B

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Patrick Bartek]

On Sun, 17 Apr 2016, Go Linux wrote:

> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 15:27:17 -0700
> From: Patrick Bartek 
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org 
> Subject: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]
> > 
> > Much to my regret (and others, too, I'm sure), yesterday, on 15
> > April 2016, the beginning of the end began for Wheezy. Google, as
> > announced
> > 
> [snipped]
> > 
> > Well, at least I have time to look for an alternative. Maybe, Devuan
> > will be viable by then, but I doubt it.  Or Debian will offer a
> > choice of inits as a standard option during installs on future
> > releases, but I very much doubt it.
> > 
> 
> O ye of little faith!  I have been using Devuan Xfce on my desktop
> since last November.   Haven't had one hiccup with it.  And I am not
> alone!  Many are using it on their desktop and also on production
> servers.  Beta will be released very soon if that's what you're
> waiting for. 

A good endorsement for its stability, but it's still in Alpha, an
admission by its own developer that the software is not truly ready.

Yes, I'm waiting for a Beta, a late one -- next year? -- but for
evaluation, not general use.  I'm very particular.  However, another
thing to consider, too:  even if the Final Release comes this time next
year (and I don't think it will), the OS will be one generation behind
since it's based on Jessie, and Stretch is "expected" to become the new
Stable about the same time.

We'll see.  I've got time.

B

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Bob Holtzman]

On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 09:34:05AM +1000, Paul Trevethan wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2016 15:27:17 -0700
> Patrick Bartek  wrote:
> 
> > Much to my regret (and others, too, I'm sure), yesterday, on 15 April
> > 2016, the beginning of the end began for Wheezy. Google, as announced
> > months ago, finally ceased support for its browser on Wheezy.  I
> > double checked just to be sure, and in the course of that check also
> > discovered "official" Debian support for Wheezy will cease in a
> > little over a week on 26 April 2016 -- just 3 years after its
> > release.  However, it will automatically enter LTS until 2018 at
> > which time all support ceases and EOL "officially" occurs. 
> > 
> > Well, at least I have time to look for an alternative. Maybe, Devuan
> > will be viable by then, but I doubt it.  Or Debian will offer a
> > choice of inits as a standard option during installs on future
> > releases, but I very much doubt it.
> > 
> > B
> > 
> 
> If you want a rock solid Debian based system with no systemd - check
> out Antix distribution.

There is no mail list, only a forum. It shows systemd in it's package
list. 

-- 
Bob Holtzman
A man is a man who will fight with a sword or
conquer Mt. Everest in snow. But the bravest of all
owns a '34 Ford and tries for six thousand in low.

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Tom Browder]

On Sunday, April 17, 2016, Renaud OLGIATI 
wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Apr 2016 11:48:16 +
> Mark Fletcher > wrote:
>
> > It seems the emotions, even now, are running too high to be simply about
> > "if it ain't broke don't fix it". What am I missing?
>
> You are missing that the change to systemd makes most of the knowledge
> patiently acquired over the years running and caring for a Linux system has
> suddenly become unusable


Note I initially felt the same way, but the new system seemed to use my
LSB-formatted init scripts just fine.

Best regards,

-Tom

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!] (caution: thread deviation)

[Michael Milliman]

On 04/17/2016 07:00 AM, Eike Lantzsch wrote:

On Sunday 17 April 2016 11:48:16 Mark Fletcher wrote:

On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:19 PM Michael Milliman <

michael.e.milli...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've never really
liked systemd, though I must admit it does work and do the job -- I just
like the simplicity of the init system better.  Admittedly, I may well
be undereducated on systemd resulting in my prejudice.

Speaking of prejudice -- question to the list in general -- why the vitriol
in the linux community about systemd? I read the "I'm changing distros
because I don't like systemd" type blog posts, and the "Debian devs are
evil for forcing systemd on us" and so on -- and then I tried it. I've even
built a LFS system using it. I really, really can't see what the fuss is
about. Yes, it's complicated, but then init was quite capable of confusing
the living daylights out of me as well...

It seems the emotions, even now, are running too high to be simply about
"if it ain't broke don't fix it". What am I missing?

Mark

All the pros and cons of system.d have been discussed and ranted about here
and can be easily found in the archives. I personally don't think that it is
necessary to go through those discussions again.

Easily one can slip some emotional comment [sigh!] (sic) into a posting but it
is unnecessary to jump on it - no?
Yeah, IMHO the emotionalism is anti-productive.  I have my opinion and 
my reasons for said opinion, but when emotions become involved in the 
discussion, all real logical consideration of the merits of one system 
over another go out the door.  We should really be trying to get the 
best system we can, whether with init or systemd, and that should be 
based on the merits of the two competing systems, not on opinion and 
emotion.  Both systems work.  Both systems have merit, and I acknowledge 
that my preference for init over systemd my well be due to ignorance 
than anything else.

All the best to y'all
Eike



--
Mike

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Ron]

On Sun, 17 Apr 2016 11:48:16 +
Mark Fletcher  wrote:

> It seems the emotions, even now, are running too high to be simply about
> "if it ain't broke don't fix it". What am I missing?

You are missing that the change to systemd makes most of the knowledge 
patiently acquired over the years running and caring for a Linux system has 
suddenly become unusable.
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
The three worst mistakes you can make
are overpromising and underdelivering.

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!] (caution: thread deviation)

[Eike Lantzsch]

On Sunday 17 April 2016 11:48:16 Mark Fletcher wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:19 PM Michael Milliman <
> 
> michael.e.milli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've never really
> > liked systemd, though I must admit it does work and do the job -- I just
> > like the simplicity of the init system better.  Admittedly, I may well
> > be undereducated on systemd resulting in my prejudice.
> 
> Speaking of prejudice -- question to the list in general -- why the vitriol
> in the linux community about systemd? I read the "I'm changing distros
> because I don't like systemd" type blog posts, and the "Debian devs are
> evil for forcing systemd on us" and so on -- and then I tried it. I've even
> built a LFS system using it. I really, really can't see what the fuss is
> about. Yes, it's complicated, but then init was quite capable of confusing
> the living daylights out of me as well...
> 
> It seems the emotions, even now, are running too high to be simply about
> "if it ain't broke don't fix it". What am I missing?
> 
> Mark

All the pros and cons of system.d have been discussed and ranted about here 
and can be easily found in the archives. I personally don't think that it is 
necessary to go through those discussions again.

Easily one can slip some emotional comment [sigh!] (sic) into a posting but it 
is unnecessary to jump on it - no?

All the best to y'all
Eike

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Mark Fletcher]

On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:19 PM Michael Milliman <
michael.e.milli...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I've never really
> liked systemd, though I must admit it does work and do the job -- I just
> like the simplicity of the init system better.  Admittedly, I may well
> be undereducated on systemd resulting in my prejudice.
>
>
Speaking of prejudice -- question to the list in general -- why the vitriol
in the linux community about systemd? I read the "I'm changing distros
because I don't like systemd" type blog posts, and the "Debian devs are
evil for forcing systemd on us" and so on -- and then I tried it. I've even
built a LFS system using it. I really, really can't see what the fuss is
about. Yes, it's complicated, but then init was quite capable of confusing
the living daylights out of me as well...

It seems the emotions, even now, are running too high to be simply about
"if it ain't broke don't fix it". What am I missing?

Mark

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Michael Milliman]

On 04/16/2016 07:52 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:

> >choice of inits as a standard option during installs on future
> >releases, but I very much doubt it.
> >
> >B
> >

>
I use Linux Mint on one of my machines.  It is init based, not systemd, 
and has Debian and Ubuntu as it's underpinnings.  All of the familiar 
things work great (apt, and all other packages I have used under 
straight Debian).  I think you might like that distribution as well.  
You can check out their home page at https://www.linuxmint.com.  I still 
have Debian running on my server system (Jessie with systemd), but I 
really like the Linux Mint system with init as well.  I've never really 
liked systemd, though I must admit it does work and do the job -- I just 
like the simplicity of the init system better.  Admittedly, I may well 
be undereducated on systemd resulting in my prejudice.


--
Mike

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Patrick Bartek]

On Sun, 17 Apr 2016, Paul Trevethan wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Apr 2016 15:27:17 -0700
> Patrick Bartek  wrote:
> 
> > Much to my regret (and others, too, I'm sure), yesterday, on 15
> > April 2016, the beginning of the end began for Wheezy. Google, as
> > announced months ago, finally ceased support for its browser on
> > Wheezy.  I double checked just to be sure, and in the course of
> > that check also discovered "official" Debian support for Wheezy
> > will cease in a little over a week on 26 April 2016 -- just 3 years
> > after its release.  However, it will automatically enter LTS until
> > 2018 at which time all support ceases and EOL "officially" occurs. 
> > 
> > Well, at least I have time to look for an alternative. Maybe, Devuan
> > will be viable by then, but I doubt it.  Or Debian will offer a
> > choice of inits as a standard option during installs on future
> > releases, but I very much doubt it.
> > 
> > B
> > 
> 
> If you want a rock solid Debian based system with no systemd - check
> out Antix distribution.

I've heard good things about AntiX.   It's already on my list   I like
to build my system from a terminal install up using only a window
manager to keep things light. No fancy desktop environment needed for
me.

Thanks for the recommendation. 

B  

Re: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Paul Trevethan]

On Sat, 16 Apr 2016 15:27:17 -0700
Patrick Bartek  wrote:

> Much to my regret (and others, too, I'm sure), yesterday, on 15 April
> 2016, the beginning of the end began for Wheezy. Google, as announced
> months ago, finally ceased support for its browser on Wheezy.  I
> double checked just to be sure, and in the course of that check also
> discovered "official" Debian support for Wheezy will cease in a
> little over a week on 26 April 2016 -- just 3 years after its
> release.  However, it will automatically enter LTS until 2018 at
> which time all support ceases and EOL "officially" occurs. 
> 
> Well, at least I have time to look for an alternative. Maybe, Devuan
> will be viable by then, but I doubt it.  Or Debian will offer a
> choice of inits as a standard option during installs on future
> releases, but I very much doubt it.
> 
> B
> 

If you want a rock solid Debian based system with no systemd - check
out Antix distribution.

-- 
It is about the Dragons - it was always about the Dragons!