Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Walter Hurry wrote: > On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:14:07 -0500, Tom H wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Walter Hurry >> wrote: >>> On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:34:36 -0500, Tom H wrote: >>> For the latest Fedora beta, "gnome-shell will run even on hardware without a native 3D driver, including virt guests." >>> >>> Umm, there isn't a Fedora beta at the moment. >> >> Fedora has "rawhide", which is a permanent beta. > > Not so. Fedora 17 is not even alpha yet. What are you talking about?! http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/Rawhide And F17 will branch from "rawhide" in February and there are already "fc17"-tagged packages in the development repository. The text in quotes that I posted earlier was from fedora-devel. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=SyDXP5uB=8apcfko_2nm1b7bucg-spq4ekgtrisv2o...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:14:07 -0500, Tom H wrote: > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Walter Hurry > wrote: >> On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:34:36 -0500, Tom H wrote: >> >>> For the latest Fedora beta, "gnome-shell will run even on hardware >>> without a native 3D driver, including virt guests." >> >> Umm, there isn't a Fedora beta at the moment. > > Fedora has "rawhide", which is a permanent beta. Not so. Fedora 17 is not even alpha yet. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/j9seka$m45$3...@dough.gmane.org
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Walter Hurry wrote: > On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:34:36 -0500, Tom H wrote: > >> For the latest Fedora beta, "gnome-shell will run even on hardware >> without a native 3D driver, including virt guests." > > Umm, there isn't a Fedora beta at the moment. Fedora has "rawhide", which is a permanent beta. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=Sy1DP9qqMUbz5_Ki9dswUQkcwqQZoQQ=qj4wfbeznp...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:34:36 -0500, Tom H wrote: > For the latest Fedora beta, "gnome-shell will run even on hardware > without a native 3D driver, including virt guests." Umm, there isn't a Fedora beta at the moment. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/j9sdls$m45$1...@dough.gmane.org
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 19:17:52 +, Joe wrote: > On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:06:42 + (UTC) Camaleón > wrote: > > >> GNOME developers provide lots of information about GNOME3 and the new >> gnome-shell: >> >> https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell >> >> You can use that page as a start point to get a clue on why your VGA is >> not capable of running gnome-shell. > > I think, as usual with Linux graphics, that we are talking drivers here. Of course. "ghome-shell" needs and VGA driver with 3D acceleration, so when it's not available it defaults to the fallback mode. > I don't really think this is fixable. The MB is two-three years old. So > not old enough to write off as useless, but not brand-new either. If it > was new, it would be understandable that the graphics drivers were not > ready yet. When the driver isn't there for something two to three years > old and as short-lived as a motherboard chipset, I can't see it ever > happening. We won't be able to tell you if it is fixable or not unless you tell us whats your VGA hardware and what driver are you using. >> If you are dissatisfied whith the current level of information, you can >> help to improve it. And if you experience any error when login to your >> session, you can review the current open bug reports gnome-shell >> package it has and yo will see that you're not alone. In the end, >> you're running testing/sid, right? >> >> > Indeed so, and not being a systems programmer, I do my best in helping > to spot bugs. Did you already open a bug for this issue? > I've run sid long enough to have weathered quite a few > storms, particularly with X and grub, but whenever there was a problem, > I could expect *enthusiastic* support. "Enthusiasm" has its limits, sir. We are plain users, not gnome-shell developers, so we can tell you where to start to look for to solve the problem but we cannot fix it :-) > There were FAQs for people with difficulties, and announcements at the > time of upgrade if there were any important changes to how a package > was configured or operated. A new system, whatever it is, is someone's > baby, and they are proud parents and want everyone to admire it. I have not seen any notice or warning for other major upgrades, like kernel versions (2.6.39 → 3.0). This has broken my wifi... such is life. As I'm running "testing" I should know it's a permament moving target, until it gets freezed so here (in testing) package updates are more than welcome. > I'm probably not being clear here, it isn't any lack of information that > I have a problem with, it is the level of helpfulness and willingness to > help someone with problems, and indeed the willingness to use the > existing facilities to warn of upgrade difficulties and suggest a > methodology to resolve them. The piece I quoted from the Gnome website > says to me very clearly that people with older hardware should expect > little or no help. Possibly the original message was written in > something other than English, and the translation left a bit to be > desired, but it came across to me as a touch arrogant, and as I said, > not the way I've come to expect Open Source people to sound. I think you are completely wrong here. People running old hardware (and I refer older than 5 years or so) is covered by the fallback mode which is another flavour you can use to run GNOME3. > Anyway, thank you for your patience but the deed is done, and I may look > at Gnome again when I have new hardware. Or I may have become hooked on > lightweight desktops, as so many people seem to be. When it comes down > to it, as you nearly said previously, it's only there to run > applications in a convenient way, it doesn't need to be a work of high > art or beauty in itself. You will be very welcome to GNOME when you find yourself prepared to make the jump. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2011.11.14.22.41...@gmail.com
realtime kernel and nvidia [was: Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?]
On Lu, 14 nov 11, 06:23:10, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > If 3D acceleration is needed an audio realtime patched kernel couldn't > be used with NVIDIA graphics. There are patches that enable to use > NVIDIA with the proprietary 3D acceleration, but those patches are > offending the GNU. I still own the FLOSS nv driver for my Debian > testing. At the moment I'm using a full preempt kernel with threadirqs > set, so I use the proprietary driver with 3D acceleration. > If I should use the nv driver, then I won't be able to use GNOME 3 > without fallback mode? And nouveau doesn't work for you? By now it should be better than nv except some corner cases. Kind regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Joe wrote: > > I think, as usual with Linux graphics, that we are talking drivers here. > > I don't really think this is fixable. The MB is two-three years old. So > not old enough to write off as useless, but not brand-new either. For the latest Fedora beta, "gnome-shell will run even on hardware without a native 3D driver, including virt guests." So we should expect that whatever the X and/or GNOME developers have done will end up in experimental soon enough and then trickle down into unstable and testing. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=Swn0rX9AuoTVopNAPx-u4UAdkRop60c59Ye0a53=hw...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:06:42 + (UTC) Camaleón wrote: > > GNOME developers provide lots of information about GNOME3 and the new > gnome-shell: > > https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell > > You can use that page as a start point to get a clue on why your VGA > is not capable of running gnome-shell. I think, as usual with Linux graphics, that we are talking drivers here. I don't really think this is fixable. The MB is two-three years old. So not old enough to write off as useless, but not brand-new either. If it was new, it would be understandable that the graphics drivers were not ready yet. When the driver isn't there for something two to three years old and as short-lived as a motherboard chipset, I can't see it ever happening. > > > If you are dissatisfied whith the current level of information, you > can help to improve it. And if you experience any error when login to > your session, you can review the current open bug reports gnome-shell > package it has and yo will see that you're not alone. In the end, > you're running testing/sid, right? > Indeed so, and not being a systems programmer, I do my best in helping to spot bugs. I've run sid long enough to have weathered quite a few storms, particularly with X and grub, but whenever there was a problem, I could expect *enthusiastic* support. There were FAQs for people with difficulties, and announcements at the time of upgrade if there were any important changes to how a package was configured or operated. A new system, whatever it is, is someone's baby, and they are proud parents and want everyone to admire it. I'm probably not being clear here, it isn't any lack of information that I have a problem with, it is the level of helpfulness and willingness to help someone with problems, and indeed the willingness to use the existing facilities to warn of upgrade difficulties and suggest a methodology to resolve them. The piece I quoted from the Gnome website says to me very clearly that people with older hardware should expect little or no help. Possibly the original message was written in something other than English, and the translation left a bit to be desired, but it came across to me as a touch arrogant, and as I said, not the way I've come to expect Open Source people to sound. Anyway, thank you for your patience but the deed is done, and I may look at Gnome again when I have new hardware. Or I may have become hooked on lightweight desktops, as so many people seem to be. When it comes down to it, as you nearly said previously, it's only there to run applications in a convenient way, it doesn't need to be a work of high art or beauty in itself. Regards, Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2014191752.13956...@jretrading.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:36:44 +, Joe wrote: > On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:20:20 + (UTC) Camaleón > wrote: >> > No, not an option. Gnome3 does not work on my hardware. >> >> (...) >> >> I doub it. >> >> Maybe you wanted to say "gnome-shell"? >> >> > I don't know. I've just done a long-overdue upgrade on my laptop, with > exactly the same result. Not unexpectedly, as it was the cheapest I > could buy about five years ago. What result is that? > The message says that Gnome3 cannot be run on the graphics hardware, and > gives me the fallback. Possibly it's gnome-shell that is the problem, > but that's not what it tells me. Gnome seem to identify Gnome3 very > strongly with the visual appearance, rather than the functionality. The message is biased, that's "gnome-shell" speaking but you can still make use of the fallback mode (and so GNOME3) as it says. > Perhaps if the Gnome developers had chosen to offer informative error > messages, telling me exactly what wasn't right, I might investigate and > solve it, but I get the general impression that they don't give a damn > whether it works for me or not. If it doesn't, tough. GNOME developers provide lots of information about GNOME3 and the new gnome-shell: https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell You can use that page as a start point to get a clue on why your VGA is not capable of running gnome-shell. > It's not the fact that there is a problem which I find offensive. I've > run sid for years on both machines and my last desktop, so I don't > expect an easy ride. But I don't find either this upgrade experience or > the Gnome website to reach the standard I expect of Open Source, there's > a smugness and indifference which I feel is more characteristic of some > commercial software providers. If you are dissatisfied whith the current level of information, you can help to improve it. And if you experience any error when login to your session, you can review the current open bug reports gnome-shell package it has and yo will see that you're not alone. In the end, you're running testing/sid, right? > And I hate to invoke the Godwin's Law of Open Source, but my other > workstation isn't up to running the fancy graphical bits of Windows 7, > either, but Microsoft provide a perfectly good and fully-functional > alternative, and don't warn me that it will only work for a while. I agree. MS has done a very good job by allowing users to get a basic desktop or a fancy one in just a couple of clicks. > I'm trying Xfce on the laptop. Oh, fine :-) Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2011.11.14.13.06...@gmail.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:34:43 -0600 John Hasler wrote: > Joe writes: > > And I hate to invoke the Godwin's Law of Open Source, but my other > > workstation isn't up to running the fancy graphical bits of Windows > > 7, either, but Microsoft provide a perfectly good and > > fully-functional alternative, and don't warn me that it will only > > work for a while. > > > I'm trying Xfce on the laptop. > > So Debian has provided an alternative to GNOME: one of many. Indeed so, I have no complaint about Debian, or Linux generally. And I've used Gnome happily for many years: I just think this upgrade was handled badly. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2014085028.78b4a...@jretrading.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:16:42 -0600 "Selim T. Erdogan" wrote: > > I haven't understood yet: Do you mean Windows 7's fancy graphics > stuff (Aero?) may be turned off for lower-capability machines, I would assume so, but my machine (and all the others I've seen running Win7) doesn't have the graphics power for Aero, so it just doesn't happen. But it's only the 3D effects which are missing, everything else works the same. > or do > you mean MS offers the alternative of Windows 98? (If the latter, I > thought it wasn't getting updated anymore. No, I was comparing what was left after the Gnome3 upgrade to Win98. Right-clicking on the desktop no longer worked, and I had a cut-down main menu, no panel, etc. > Is there anything that > gives no-longer-updated Windows versions an advantage compared to > older versions of Debian that include Gnome 2?) > Not really. As you say, XP has only a couple of years left, but it will have been supported for over ten years. Most people will have replaced their hardware at least once in that time. Vista/Win7 requires such a large increase in power that the old machines can't do it at all. I don't know if the netbook version is publicly available, and if that would be of any use. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2014084904.3c9fb...@jretrading.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Sun, 2011-11-13 at 17:17 -0600, John Hasler wrote: > Joe writes: > > I don't see why my old Gnome environment just disappeared down the > > plughole simply because my graphics driver or chipset doesn't do > > hardware 3D acceleration. > > It didn't. It's still there. You are free to continue using it, and to > pay someone to support it for you if you wish. "I now introduce Measham’s Law: As an online discussion regarding the features of a piece of open source software grows longer, the probability of someone saying “It’s open source, you write it” approaches one." - http://rick.measham.id.au/200710/meashams-law-godwins-law-for-open-source-development/ I'll add that someone will say "pay someone", "switch back[1] to Windows" etc. pp.. [1] very nice if people never used Windows and Mac. Btw. I'm able to restore my testing with GNOME 2, but if I would do that, the day will come when I would run into dependency hell. :( -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1321248790.2866.55.camel@debian
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Sun, 2011-11-13 at 22:51 +, Joe wrote: > I don't see why my old Gnome environment just disappeared down the > plughole simply because my graphics driver or chipset doesn't do > hardware 3D acceleration. If 3D acceleration is needed an audio realtime patched kernel couldn't be used with NVIDIA graphics. There are patches that enable to use NVIDIA with the proprietary 3D acceleration, but those patches are offending the GNU. I still own the FLOSS nv driver for my Debian testing. At the moment I'm using a full preempt kernel with threadirqs set, so I use the proprietary driver with 3D acceleration. If I should use the nv driver, then I won't be able to use GNOME 3 without fallback mode? I guess I need to switch to KDE 4 and hope I can set it similar to KDE 3. XFCE, LXDE etc. can't replace GNOME 2 for my needs. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1321248190.2866.49.camel@debian
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Sun, 2011-11-13 at 12:28 -0500, Tom H wrote: > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Scott Ferguson > wrote: > > On 13/11/11 11:13, Walter Hurry wrote: > >> > >> It seems fashionable to complain about GNOME3. If you don't like it (and > >> personally I detest it), then you have three choices: > >> > >> a) Wait until it improves (3,2, 3.3, 3.4)? > >> b) Put up with it as it as it is. > >> c) Switch to another desktop environment. There are several to choose > >> from. > >> > >> GNOME2 is not coming back. "Fallback" mode is for a limited time only. > >> > >> But it seems to me that complaining gains little or nothing. > > > > I must be getting too old... I remember when FOSS meant *not whining* > > about lack of choice or the ability to change things. Seems it now means > > "I've got a suggestion/demand that'll make me happier but requires the > > effort/expense of others". > > > > Suggestion to those that are unhappy - developers do care about users > > (without the silent L) - they don't have enough time, resources, > > respect, or appreciation. Please take those things into account before > > filling the lists with your "developers don't pay enough attention to > > *my* needs/wants" posting - maybe then you'll get what you want, even if > > it's just a reality check (you can't have A without losing B etc). > > Why can't users express an opinion on their DE of choice especially > when a new version has taken a step back in terms of configurability?! Full ACK. On older computers GNOME 3 could cause performance issues for video editing and audio production. On my relative modern computer I experience that GNOME 3 in fallback mode is - unstable, sometimes it freeze and I need to push the reset button - missing icon themes - even existing themes don't work, e.g. - the white mouse cursor is black - there's black text on black background - there's white text on white background - ... - disability of graphic design seemingly it were no graphic designers, but software coders who do all the bad shadows and colour gradients. - Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1321245090.2866.35.camel@debian
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On 14/11/11 04:28, Tom H wrote: > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Scott Ferguson > wrote: >> On 13/11/11 11:13, Walter Hurry wrote: >>> >> >> Suggestion to those that are unhappy - developers do care about >> users (without the silent L) - they don't have enough time, >> resources, respect, or appreciation. Please take those things into >> account before filling the lists with your "developers don't pay >> enough attention to *my* needs/wants" posting - maybe then you'll >> get what you want, even if it's just a reality check (you can't >> have A without losing B etc). > > Why can't users express an opinion on their DE of choice They can (and they do). > especially when a new version has taken a step back in terms of > configurability?! > *If* that is the case it's subjective. Unless you're aiming at the sort of simplistic view seen only by simpletons eg. That argument is less persuasive than "I have trouble understanding how to configure this". It's not to say that "it" is *not* less configurable, it just pre-supposes that it always costs something - even if it's a tiny bit of ego. The other approach implies the developer is an idiot (and they may well be) - but the reality is that most won't take that kindly. As an argument it just backs the developer into a corner. Catch more flies with honey than vinegar[*1]. Developers (almost always) want feedback. Even those that get paid for their work (much of Debian packages are developed upstream, and much is paid development). Developers aren't going change/do things *just* because people complain. Not only does it require motivation - the expectations should also be realistic (running the same DE on vastly different architectures and interfaces require compromises, one way or another). Then there's circumstance - if we're talking changes in framework - then expect application gaps as app developers catch up on the changes. That's normal (chicken comes before the egg). If it's app gaps appearing in Stable then the problem is probably not a a developer level. When people complain about changes in something, just because something has changed *and* it's Testing... (the clue is in the name, Testing). I can only speak of my experience, and what I've heard from others - but, users who don't appreciate the reasons why something fails to meet *their* expectations is the second most common reason to stop developing (lack of time being the most common). The most annoying (and counter-productive) "expression of opinion" is the assertion that changes are caused by stupidity or copying commercial products[*2]. Aside from the over-inflated ego (Monday morning footballer) evident in the insult and abuse - it's generally wrong, and almost never likely to produce the desired effects. Much more likely to result in user "feedback" being filtered out. Of course there'll always be those that can't distinguish between arguing in order to achieve a desired change, and arguing because they feel (justifiably) disenfranchised[*3]. One is enlightened self-interest, the other is just self-interest (unintentional trolls). Don't confuse my limited ability to explain myself properly with the idea that everyone should pretend to love what they dislike (or STFU). I have a dog in this fight too. What's good for Debian is good for me. I want people to learn how to provide constructive criticism to developers and decision makers so that more users become developers and decision makers (and voters). Instead of people ranting uselessly - leaving when they don't get what they inarticulately and ineffectually argued for - and making developers stop listening and/or leaving in the process. Cheers NOTE: when I say "you" I don't mean an individual. [*1] Actually, you don't, it's a BS precept (flies prefer vinegar), but you know what I mean. [*2] If you can't do it yourself, how can you expect to dictate how it should be done, *and* be taken seriously. The illusion that "I know how something I don't know how to do, should be done - is just that - and illusion. [*3] Yes, the customer *is* always right, even when the product is gratis. Right about the product. Just not always in the right shop. There's a difference. -- Iceweasel/Firefox extensions for finding answers to Debian questions:- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/collections/Scott_Ferguson/debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ec05848.2020...@gmail.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
Joe writes: > I don't see why my old Gnome environment just disappeared down the > plughole simply because my graphics driver or chipset doesn't do > hardware 3D acceleration. It didn't. It's still there. You are free to continue using it, and to pay someone to support it for you if you wish. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87obwfipdw@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
Joe, 13.11.2011: > On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:09:49 -0600 > "Selim T. Erdogan" wrote: > > > Joe, 13.11.2011: > > > > > > And I hate to invoke the Godwin's Law of Open Source, but my other > > > workstation isn't up to running the fancy graphical bits of Windows > > > 7, either, but Microsoft provide a perfectly good and > > > fully-functional alternative, and don't warn me that it will only > > > work for a while. > > > > (Warning: getting off topic) > > Indeed so, let's run away quickly after this. > > > > I am curious what you meant by the alternative. Is it Windows 7 with > > some stuff turned off, or is it something else? (I am not familiar > > with W7 but there are some old machines around with XP on them and > > XP support will end in April 2014.) > > > > > > There is a substantial step up in resources required in going from XP > to Win7 or its beta version, Vista. An absolute minimum of a G of > RAM is necessary, and even bottom-end computers are normally sold > with 2G. There is a free MS program somewhere that can determine whether > an XP machine can usefully run Win7. > > Yes, the situation is a bit like Compiz, Windows will either offer the > fancy 3D Aero features or not depending on a few things, mostly graphics > power. The point is that the functional features of the DE don't depend > on how fancy the graphics are, so everything else works the same either > way, and the non-Aero version will not be withdrawn after a while. You > don't get a bald statement that Win7 won't run, here's Windows 98 > instead, but don't get used to it. I haven't understood yet: Do you mean Windows 7's fancy graphics stuff (Aero?) may be turned off for lower-capability machines, or do you mean MS offers the alternative of Windows 98? (If the latter, I thought it wasn't getting updated anymore. Is there anything that gives no-longer-updated Windows versions an advantage compared to older versions of Debian that include Gnome 2?) > I don't see why my old Gnome environment just disappeared down the > plughole simply because my graphics driver or chipset doesn't do > hardware 3D acceleration. Because you're using testing or unstable? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2013231642.gb26...@cs.utexas.edu
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:09:49 -0600 "Selim T. Erdogan" wrote: > Joe, 13.11.2011: > > > > And I hate to invoke the Godwin's Law of Open Source, but my other > > workstation isn't up to running the fancy graphical bits of Windows > > 7, either, but Microsoft provide a perfectly good and > > fully-functional alternative, and don't warn me that it will only > > work for a while. > > (Warning: getting off topic) Indeed so, let's run away quickly after this. > > I am curious what you meant by the alternative. Is it Windows 7 with > some stuff turned off, or is it something else? (I am not familiar > with W7 but there are some old machines around with XP on them and > XP support will end in April 2014.) > > There is a substantial step up in resources required in going from XP to Win7 or its beta version, Vista. An absolute minimum of a G of RAM is necessary, and even bottom-end computers are normally sold with 2G. There is a free MS program somewhere that can determine whether an XP machine can usefully run Win7. Yes, the situation is a bit like Compiz, Windows will either offer the fancy 3D Aero features or not depending on a few things, mostly graphics power. The point is that the functional features of the DE don't depend on how fancy the graphics are, so everything else works the same either way, and the non-Aero version will not be withdrawn after a while. You don't get a bald statement that Win7 won't run, here's Windows 98 instead, but don't get used to it. I don't see why my old Gnome environment just disappeared down the plughole simply because my graphics driver or chipset doesn't do hardware 3D acceleration. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2013225105.700b3...@jretrading.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
Joe writes: > And I hate to invoke the Godwin's Law of Open Source, but my other > workstation isn't up to running the fancy graphical bits of Windows 7, > either, but Microsoft provide a perfectly good and fully-functional > alternative, and don't warn me that it will only work for a while. > I'm trying Xfce on the laptop. So Debian has provided an alternative to GNOME: one of many. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87sjlrircs@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
Joe, 13.11.2011: > > And I hate to invoke the Godwin's Law of Open Source, but my other > workstation isn't up to running the fancy graphical bits of Windows 7, > either, but Microsoft provide a perfectly good and fully-functional > alternative, and don't warn me that it will only work for a while. (Warning: getting off topic) I am curious what you meant by the alternative. Is it Windows 7 with some stuff turned off, or is it something else? (I am not familiar with W7 but there are some old machines around with XP on them and XP support will end in April 2014.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2013220949.ga26...@cs.utexas.edu
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:20:20 + (UTC) Camaleón wrote: > On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:38:22 +, Joe wrote: > > > On 13/11/11 00:13, Walter Hurry wrote: > >> It seems fashionable to complain about GNOME3. If you don't like it > >> (and personally I detest it), then you have three choices: > >> > >> a) Wait until it improves (3,2, 3.3, 3.4)? > > > > No, not an option. Gnome3 does not work on my hardware. > > I doub it. > > >> b) Put up with it as it as it is. > > > > No, not an option. Gnome3 does not work on my hardware. > > (...) > > I doub it. > > Maybe you wanted to say "gnome-shell"? > I don't know. I've just done a long-overdue upgrade on my laptop, with exactly the same result. Not unexpectedly, as it was the cheapest I could buy about five years ago. The message says that Gnome3 cannot be run on the graphics hardware, and gives me the fallback. Possibly it's gnome-shell that is the problem, but that's not what it tells me. Gnome seem to identify Gnome3 very strongly with the visual appearance, rather than the functionality. Perhaps if the Gnome developers had chosen to offer informative error messages, telling me exactly what wasn't right, I might investigate and solve it, but I get the general impression that they don't give a damn whether it works for me or not. If it doesn't, tough. It's not the fact that there is a problem which I find offensive. I've run sid for years on both machines and my last desktop, so I don't expect an easy ride. But I don't find either this upgrade experience or the Gnome website to reach the standard I expect of Open Source, there's a smugness and indifference which I feel is more characteristic of some commercial software providers. And I hate to invoke the Godwin's Law of Open Source, but my other workstation isn't up to running the fancy graphical bits of Windows 7, either, but Microsoft provide a perfectly good and fully-functional alternative, and don't warn me that it will only work for a while. I'm trying Xfce on the laptop. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2013213644.43d09...@jretrading.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:38:22 +, Joe wrote: > On 13/11/11 00:13, Walter Hurry wrote: >> It seems fashionable to complain about GNOME3. If you don't like it >> (and personally I detest it), then you have three choices: >> >> a) Wait until it improves (3,2, 3.3, 3.4)? > > No, not an option. Gnome3 does not work on my hardware. I doub it. >> b) Put up with it as it as it is. > > No, not an option. Gnome3 does not work on my hardware. (...) I doub it. Maybe you wanted to say "gnome-shell"? Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2011.11.13.18.20...@gmail.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On 13/11/11 00:13, Walter Hurry wrote: > It seems fashionable to complain about GNOME3. If you don't like it > (and personally I detest it), then you have three choices: > > a) Wait until it improves (3,2, 3.3, 3.4)? No, not an option. Gnome3 does not work on my hardware. > b) Put up with it as it as it is. No, not an option. Gnome3 does not work on my hardware. > c) Switch to another desktop environment. There are several to choose > from. Done that. LXDE. > > GNOME2 is not coming back. "Fallback" mode is for a limited time only. > > But it seems to me that complaining gains little or nothing. Of course not, but the original thread was about alternatives to Gnome3, not what to do with it. > > Just my 2c. > > And welcome. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2013173822.7c436...@jretrading.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Scott Ferguson wrote: > On 13/11/11 11:13, Walter Hurry wrote: >> >> It seems fashionable to complain about GNOME3. If you don't like it (and >> personally I detest it), then you have three choices: >> >> a) Wait until it improves (3,2, 3.3, 3.4)? >> b) Put up with it as it as it is. >> c) Switch to another desktop environment. There are several to choose >> from. >> >> GNOME2 is not coming back. "Fallback" mode is for a limited time only. >> >> But it seems to me that complaining gains little or nothing. > > I must be getting too old... I remember when FOSS meant *not whining* > about lack of choice or the ability to change things. Seems it now means > "I've got a suggestion/demand that'll make me happier but requires the > effort/expense of others". > > Suggestion to those that are unhappy - developers do care about users > (without the silent L) - they don't have enough time, resources, > respect, or appreciation. Please take those things into account before > filling the lists with your "developers don't pay enough attention to > *my* needs/wants" posting - maybe then you'll get what you want, even if > it's just a reality check (you can't have A without losing B etc). Why can't users express an opinion on their DE of choice especially when a new version has taken a step back in terms of configurability?! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=SyCWLpzQUfnudWFocfeWvUkSkehF=z4qknx_erydjn...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On Sun, 2011-11-13 at 11:01 +0100, Lorenzo Bandieri wrote: > >> d) Fork GNOME2 and bring it back yourself. It's Free Software. > > > I just want to point out that a gnome 2 fork already exists: it is > called Mate [1,2]. > > IMHO, it is unlikely that gnome 2 fork (like this) get a big > audience/support. It is true that there is a big disappointment about > gnome 3 (as everyone reading this ML can > witness), but gnome 3 is here to stay. Hopefully it'll get better with > future releases. > > [1] https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=999792 > [2] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11333073 > > Best regards, > Lorenzo Unfortunately the digest from this morning just reached me now, I suspect it's regarding to an issue of my provider's server. Thanx for this information :) Lorenzo. GNOME 3 also was a topic on Ubuntu Studio developers and users mailing lists. - Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1321201677.4744.41.camel@debian
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
Lorenzo Bandieri wrote: d) Fork GNOME2 and bring it back yourself. It's Free Software. I just want to point out that a gnome 2 fork already exists: it is called Mate [1,2]. IMHO, it is unlikely that gnome 2 fork (like this) get a big audience/support. It is true that there is a big disappointment about gnome 3 (as everyone reading this ML can witness), but gnome 3 is here to stay. Hopefully it'll get better with future releases. [1] https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=999792 [2] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11333073 Neat. Thanks. Hugo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/j9oeev$ini$1...@dough.gmane.org
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
>> d) Fork GNOME2 and bring it back yourself. It's Free Software. > I just want to point out that a gnome 2 fork already exists: it is called Mate [1,2]. IMHO, it is unlikely that gnome 2 fork (like this) get a big audience/support. It is true that there is a big disappointment about gnome 3 (as everyone reading this ML can witness), but gnome 3 is here to stay. Hopefully it'll get better with future releases. [1] https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=999792 [2] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11333073 Best regards, Lorenzo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cabqumk8pshlcjtgxocyr98kgtjsn8r5g1h7iyuwxgwzvrpj...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On 13/11/11 11:55, John Hasler wrote: > Walter Hurry writes: >> you have three choices: > > You have four choices: > a) Wait until it improves (3,2, 3.3, 3.4)? > b) Put up with it as it as it is. > c) Switch to another desktop environment. There are several to choose >from. > d) Fork GNOME2 and bring it back yourself. It's Free Software. Well, five choices actually ;-) e) Fork off somewhere your demands are other peoples commands. Where the unicorns and magical pixies live... But we don't want people to do that, or we wouldn't support FOSS in the first place (those that understand what Debian means). Cheers -- Iceweasel/Firefox extensions for finding answers to Debian questions:- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/collections/Scott_Ferguson/debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ebf1b14.1070...@gmail.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
On 13/11/11 11:13, Walter Hurry wrote: > It seems fashionable to complain about GNOME3. If you don't like it (and > personally I detest it), then you have three choices: > > a) Wait until it improves (3,2, 3.3, 3.4)? > b) Put up with it as it as it is. > c) Switch to another desktop environment. There are several to choose > from. > > GNOME2 is not coming back. "Fallback" mode is for a limited time only. > > But it seems to me that complaining gains little or nothing. > > Just my 2c. > > 1++ and thanks for saying something. I must be getting too old... I remember when FOSS meant *not whining* about lack of choice or the ability to change things. Seems it now means "I've got a suggestion/demand that'll make me happier but requires the effort/expense of others". Suggestion to those that are unhappy - developers do care about users (without the silent L) - they don't have enough time, resources, respect, or appreciation. Please take those things into account before filling the lists with your "developers don't pay enough attention to *my* needs/wants" posting - maybe then you'll get what you want, even if it's just a reality check (you can't have A without losing B etc). Part of what people complain about is a direct result of their (ignorant) demands. If you want FOSS for your phone *and* your desktop *and* the latest hardware - it requires more work, and more resources. Want support and documentation with that? Then you'll have to accept that those changes will have to apply to more than just you. And please, pointing at [insert product here] and asking why Debian doesn't do it just prompts the obvious response (even if people are too polite to tell you to go do it). You can't have "things stay the same" when staying the same means being able to browse a rapidly changing internet, and support changing hardware and multimedia. Would you like it ported to ARM as well? If you aren't developing answers to problems, then you're bound to follow those that do - bitching just means "they" *won't* take your "needs" into account. Criticism is only good if it's constructive - and "pointing" is *not* constructive, it's just obnoxious and immature self-validation. It also makes the complainers sound like rent-a-whine puppets. My 2c. Cheers -- Iceweasel/Firefox extensions for finding answers to Debian questions:- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/collections/Scott_Ferguson/debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ebf19be.5030...@gmail.com
Re: Can we stop whining about GNOME3 please?
Walter Hurry writes: > you have three choices: You have four choices: a) Wait until it improves (3,2, 3.3, 3.4)? b) Put up with it as it as it is. c) Switch to another desktop environment. There are several to choose from. d) Fork GNOME2 and bring it back yourself. It's Free Software. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87bosgkfhg@thumper.dhh.gt.org
