Re: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?

[Jon Dowland]

On Mon, Aug 29, 2005 at 08:51:23AM -0400, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
> 2. I need to run a GUI to read the forum

I read a small number of web-based forums and I find that a text-mode
browser such as links actually makes them far more usable. If I am in a
graphical environment such as X (most of the time), then having a very
large terminal makes a big difference too.

-- 
Jon Dowland   http://jon.dowland.name/
FD35 0B0A C6DD 5D91 DB7A  83D1 168B 4E71 7032 F238


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Re: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Aug 29, 2005 at 08:51:23AM -0400, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
> 
> IIRC there have been some forums setup to help debian users. But they 
> were never a success.

email has a kind of immediacy that the web doesn't.  Not sure why.

-- hendrik


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Re: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?

[kamaraju kusumanchi]

Andy Streich wrote:


On Saturday 27 August 2005 01:25 pm, David Christensen wrote:
 



(Having just pushed the "reply to list" button in KMail...) 

Great job summarizing the discussion and vote, David.  I like your solutions 
and, in the same spirit of offering ideas that I can't implement on my own, 
here's mine:


As a supplement to (not replacement for) this email list, I'd really love to 
see a weblog where anyone who registers (just like we subscribe to this list) 
can post questions and comments.  Ideally when signing up for a list you 
could choose to be a weblog user or a mailing-list user or both.  Posts and 
comments on the blog would be sent to the list and vice versa.  

 


One problem I have with web forums is that
1. I cannot start reading it where I left off one week back
2. I need to run a GUI to read the forum
3. To additional advantage as compared to mailing lists => no incentive 
to switch.


But with the mailing lists, I can just continue reading the unread 
messages even after one week or so. There probably is such a facility by 
giving out RSS feed etc., but then I would be using a email client to 
read the unread messages. In such a case, I would be better of reading 
debian-user as a mailing list.


Moreover mailing lists does not require a GUI.

Wouldn't it be nice to actually use modern computer technology to aid people 
who are eager to use and promote Debian software?  (Apologies in advance for 
what might appear as a snide remark.  It's not intended that way.)
 

No IMHO. Latest does not mean that people should go and embrace it. Even 
if majority of people want to embrace the latest technology we need not 
adopt it. We should switch technologies only if there is an added 
advantage for US. For example you wont dist-upgrade your sid box on a 
daily basis to latest software do you?


IIRC there have been some forums setup to help debian users. But they 
were never a success.


raju

--
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi
Graduate Student, MAE
Cornell University
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/


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Re: wordpress (was Re: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?)

[Andy Streich]

On Sunday 28 August 2005 04:18 pm, Mark Crean wrote:
> I suspect an important reason for the popularity of web boards is that
> they provide a greater sense of community than a mailing list and
> become, for some, a place to hang out. At present, though, I don't think
> anyone's really cracked the problem with web boards, namely that mailing
> lists are fast, simple and don't require a gui to use even though they
> are less flexible than the boards in some respects. 

Agree. Hence the suggestion entailed a blog and the existing email list as two 
views on exactly the same data.

> In addition, web 
> boards require quite a lot of oversight and maintenance, in my
> experience, not to mention server resources. So someone would have to do
> a lot of work.

To me that's the real problem.  

Frankly I have no hope for anything like this being implemented in the near 
future, but still want to advocate for it.  The mailing list is a tremendous 
resource.  For people in remote locations (like me) it's a necessary lifeline 
for using the Debain distro.  And if it is necessary to say, I'm not 
disparraging the mailing list.

Instead I have these dreams sometimes, probably inspired by the thought that 
the 100 or so emails I get on this list each day that contain lots of really 
useful information, and every single user of the list is likely working on a 
computer that individually has more power than all the computers I touched as 
an undergrad combined.  GNU/Linux is a wonderful collection of complex 
software and the Debian distro is magical.  Yet the one thing hasn't changed 
much in 30 years and that's the production of documentation and support 
information.  That sort of work rarely if ever gets the cudos that writting a 
few dozen lines of clever system code does even though it is just as 
(arguably more) critical -- especially at this stage in the GNU/Linux life 
cycle.

We all dream.

Andy


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Re: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?

[Carl Fink]

On Sun, Aug 28, 2005 at 06:44:07PM -0700, David Christensen wrote:
> I wrote:
> > http://groups.google.com/group/linux.debian.user
> 
> Carl Fink wrote:
> > Be warned, that's a one-way thing.  Posts to linux.debian.user don't
> > appear in the mailing list.  If you see something you want to respond
> > to, use e-mail to the list, not the GG functionality.
> 
> Ugh.  I would ask "why?", but I don't want to stir up another hornet's nest.

It isn't controversial.  The mail-to-news gateway that serves
linux.debian.user with all the message from debian-user is one-way.
-- 
Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
-Bruce Tognazzini


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RE: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?

[David Christensen]

I wrote:
> http://groups.google.com/group/linux.debian.user

Carl Fink wrote:
> Be warned, that's a one-way thing.  Posts to linux.debian.user don't
> appear in the mailing list.  If you see something you want to respond
> to, use e-mail to the list, not the GG functionality.

Ugh.  I would ask "why?", but I don't want to stir up another hornet's nest.


David


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Re: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?

[Carl Fink]

On Sun, Aug 28, 2005 at 04:25:57PM -0700, David Christensen wrote:
> Carl Fink wrote:
> > This mailing list already ... has a web interface (via Google
> > Groups).
> 
> http://groups.google.com/group/linux.debian.user
> 
> I didn't know about Google Groups -- thanks!

Be warned, that's a one-way thing.  Posts to linux.debian.user don't appear
in the mailing list.  If you see something you want to respond to, use
e-mail to the list, not the GG functionality.
-- 
Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
-Bruce Tognazzini


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RE: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?

[David Christensen]

Carl Fink wrote:
> This mailing list already ... has a web interface (via Google
> Groups).

http://groups.google.com/group/linux.debian.user

I didn't know about Google Groups -- thanks!


David


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Re: wordpress (was Re: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?)

[Mark Crean]

On Sun, 2005-08-28 at 17:37 +0100, Jon Dowland wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 27, 2005 at 07:15:25PM -0700, Andy Streich wrote:
>  
> > Opensource blog software is pretty good these days and simple to set up (at 
> 
> Argh wordpress 
> 
> 1) the WP release model is incompatible with debian's security release
>policy, in much the same way mozilla is: 
> 2) ,
>specifically "update 2".
> 
> -- 
> Jon Dowland   http://jon.dowland.name/
> FD35 0B0A C6DD 5D91 DB7A  83D1 168B 4E71 7032 F238
> 
> 

How about Drupal? It's available as a standard-issue deb though  more
recent versions are on the Drupal site. Drupal is a cms rather than pure
blogging software but according to their write-ups plugins can be used
to achieve this.

I suspect an important reason for the popularity of web boards is that
they provide a greater sense of community than a mailing list and
become, for some, a place to hang out. At present, though, I don't think
anyone's really cracked the problem with web boards, namely that mailing
lists are fast, simple and don't require a gui to use even though they
are less flexible than the boards in some respects. In addition, web
boards require quite a lot of oversight and maintenance, in my
experience, not to mention server resources. So someone would have to do
a lot of work.

:)

Fish


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RE: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?

[David Christensen]

Andy Streich wrote:
> As a supplement to (not replacement for) this email list, I'd really
> love to see a weblog where anyone who registers (just like we
> subscribe to this list) can post questions and comments.  Ideally
> when signing up for a list you could choose to be a weblog user or a
> mailing-list user or both.  Posts and comments on the blog would be
> sent to the list and vice versa.

Yahoo! Groups offers web forum and e-mail integration.  I post and read via
e-mail, delete the messages locally, and use the web interface to dig through
the archives.  I believe it is possible to post via the web, but I don't
remember if I've done that (I prefer composing messages in my mail client).


Google'ing for "debian weblog", I see a lot of 'blogs by individuals.  I suspect
many of them are implemented using open-source technologies (PHPNuke?, etc.).


After participating in various physical and virtual forums/ organizations, there
seems to be a common issue:  how does the group set goals and achieve them?
Informal groups tend to be guided by the (good) will of the founders/ leaders/
maintainers (e.g. benevolent dictatorship).  Formal organizations have things
like rules of parliamentary procedure, constitutions, bylaws, charters, etc.
(e.g. democracy or corporations).  Informal organizations are easier to start
and run when small, but formalism seems to be required for larger organizations
and/or those with legal status.  There does seem to be some gray near the
informal end of the spectrum (such as an informal forum with a page of
guidelines), but I can't think of any examples directly in the middle -- perhaps
this is a transitory state, such as an informal organization that adopts
Robert's Rules of Order and then proceeds into a constitutional convention?


I suspect that adding a web interface to the debian-user mailing list, with
whatever feature set is agreed upon, would be an ambitious, educational, and
positive undertaking; both agreeing upon the feature set and then implementing
and supporting it.  I'm willing to help in whatever capacity I am allowed.


David


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blog front-end (was Re: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?)

[Jon Dowland]

[please please please trim your quoted text to what is relevant!]

On Sat, Aug 27, 2005 at 07:15:25PM -0700, Andy Streich wrote:
>  Ideally when signing up for a list you could choose to be a weblog
>  user or a mailing-list user or both.  Posts and comments on the blog
>  would be sent to the list and vice versa.  

What you are describing sounds like a web front-end for the mailing
list, masquerading as a blog. What would be the specific benefit? I
think it would have the potential for confusion. It's bad enough with
poeple treating this like a usenet group as it is :)

> Wouldn't it be nice to actually use modern computer technology to aid
> people who are eager to use and promote Debian software?

Using it for the sake of it - no. There'd have to be a demonstratably
good reason to do so, above and beyond trying to be fashionable and
keeping up with the current craze.

-- 
Jon Dowland   http://jon.dowland.name/
FD35 0B0A C6DD 5D91 DB7A  83D1 168B 4E71 7032 F238


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wordpress (was Re: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?)

[Jon Dowland]

On Sat, Aug 27, 2005 at 07:15:25PM -0700, Andy Streich wrote:
 
> Opensource blog software is pretty good these days and simple to set up (at 

Argh wordpress 

1) the WP release model is incompatible with debian's security release
   policy, in much the same way mozilla is: 
2) ,
   specifically "update 2".

-- 
Jon Dowland   http://jon.dowland.name/
FD35 0B0A C6DD 5D91 DB7A  83D1 168B 4E71 7032 F238


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Re: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?

[Carl Fink]

On Sun, Aug 28, 2005 at 02:57:59PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:

> All the severe usability and freedom-of-choice issues that hamper web boards 
> aside, the only thing starting a redundant forum serves to do is fracture the 
> user base.  This is a Bad Thing, and serves only to harm users by making it 
> exponentially more difficult to find the information you need.

Seconded.  This mailing list already exists as a newsgroup (via gmane) and
has a web interface (via Google Groups).  What more do you want?
-- 
Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
-Bruce Tognazzini


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Re: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?

[Paul Johnson]

On Saturday 27 August 2005 07:15 pm, Andy Streich wrote:
> As a supplement to (not replacement for) this email list, I'd really love
> to see a weblog where anyone who registers (just like we subscribe to this
> list) can post questions and comments.  Ideally when signing up for a list
> you could choose to be a weblog user or a mailing-list user or both.  Posts
> and comments on the blog would be sent to the list and vice versa.

All the severe usability and freedom-of-choice issues that hamper web boards 
aside, the only thing starting a redundant forum serves to do is fracture the 
user base.  This is a Bad Thing, and serves only to harm users by making it 
exponentially more difficult to find the information you need.


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Re: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?

[Paul Johnson]

On Saturday 27 August 2005 01:25 pm, David Christensen wrote:

> I have some ideas for a solution:
>
> 1.  Educate debian-user mailing list readers (especially new ones) on
> this issue.  Put information into a new reader "Welcome" letter.
> Put information into a FAQ.  Make it prominent and easy to find.
>
> 2.  Write an open-source "Reply to List" feature (plug-in?) for common
> mail clients missing such.
>
> 3.  Add per-user-configurable options to the debian-user mailing list
> software to set the "Reply-To" header, subject to message direction
> (user sending to list, user receiving from list), exceptions
> (always set, only set when not set), and/or other relevant criteria.

4. Given that Reply-To: handling is covered in RFC822 and it's successors, 
this hasn't been a casually open issue for decades now and all MUAs have had 
decades to become standards compliant.  This is now a grave bug by omission 
similar to that of Microsoft not fixing OS security issues that are now 
approaching a quarter century in age allowing viruses to do so much damage 
and spread casually on their platforms.  It needs to be fixed yesterday.


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Re: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?

[Andy Streich]

On Saturday 27 August 2005 01:25 pm, David Christensen wrote:
> debian-user:
> 
> Here's the final tally:
> 
>  clearly voted "reply to list"6
>  clearly enough voted "reply to sender"   2
>  clearly abstained1
>  other  ~86
> 
> 
> Thank you all for the quantity and quality of discussion on this 
thread.  :-)
> 
> 
> I conclude that:
> 
> 1.  Many debian-user mailing list users want their replies to be
> directed to the mailing list most of the time.
> 
> 2.  The debian-user mailing list facilitates "Reply to List"
> functionality, but many mail client programs in common use
> (including mine) lack the feature(s) necessary to use it.
> 
> 3.  Many mailing lists have implemented a work-around whereby they set
> the "Reply-To" message header so that replies are directed to the
> list when the reader activates the "Reply" feature of their mail
> client.
> 
> 4.  Users with mail client software lacking the "Reply to List" feature
> have grown accustomed to the work-around behavior because it does
> what they expect.  They are unpleasantly surprised when they reply
> to a message from this list and it goes to the sender.
> 
> 5.  The work-around breaks key functionality from the sender's
> perspective if they have deliberately set the "Reply-To" header, or
> if it has been set on their behalf.
> 
> 6.  Advanced debian-user mailing list senders depend upon correct
> mailing list operation, including respect of the "Reply-To" header,
> and would be adversely impacted by the work-around.
> 
> 7.  Some debian-user mailing list senders are zealous about this issue.
> 
> 
> I have some ideas for a solution:
> 
> 1.  Educate debian-user mailing list readers (especially new ones) on
> this issue.  Put information into a new reader "Welcome" letter.
> Put information into a FAQ.  Make it prominent and easy to find.
> 
> 2.  Write an open-source "Reply to List" feature (plug-in?) for common
> mail clients missing such.
> 
> 3.  Add per-user-configurable options to the debian-user mailing list
> software to set the "Reply-To" header, subject to message direction
> (user sending to list, user receiving from list), exceptions
> (always set, only set when not set), and/or other relevant criteria.
> 
> 
> I hereby volunteer to help implement a solution to the "reply to list for
> brain-dead MUA's" problem, per the above or any other good idea(s), with the
> caveat that my time be used effectively.

(Having just pushed the "reply to list" button in KMail...) 

Great job summarizing the discussion and vote, David.  I like your solutions 
and, in the same spirit of offering ideas that I can't implement on my own, 
here's mine:

As a supplement to (not replacement for) this email list, I'd really love to 
see a weblog where anyone who registers (just like we subscribe to this list) 
can post questions and comments.  Ideally when signing up for a list you 
could choose to be a weblog user or a mailing-list user or both.  Posts and 
comments on the blog would be sent to the list and vice versa.  

Opensource blog software is pretty good these days and simple to set up (at 
least Wordpress, the only one I've personally setup, is).  

The whole blog paradigm is especially well suited to the kind of conversations 
that go on here.  

I'm sure there would be plenty of volunteers to help with maintenance, 
moderation, etc.

Wouldn't it be nice to actually use modern computer technology to aid people 
who are eager to use and promote Debian software?  (Apologies in advance for 
what might appear as a snide remark.  It's not intended that way.)

Andy


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Re: FW: call for a vote -- should debian-user mailing list replies go to author or to list?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2005 at 04:47:28PM -0700, David Christensen wrote:
> Tally thus far:
> 
>  clearly voted "reply to list"6
>  clearly enough voted "reply to sender"   2
>  clearly abstained1
>  other  ~74

I once belonged to a group in which formal votes were tabulated
four ways:  yes/no/abstain/don't understand the question.

>From the discussion, it seems that a fair number of messages indicate
that the overwhelming majority may not understand the question fully.

-- hendrik


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