Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Sorry for the late answer, hollidays kicking in. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Raphaël Berbain) writes: Second, ISTR that PGP/MIME is recommended over inline PGP. Unfortunately, Outlook Express doesn't handle MIME properly, so PGP/MIME is out No matter how many times I read this last sentence of yours, I keep finding this reasoning wrong. Anyways, let's move on, both those arguments have already been beaten to death numerous times. Peace. unless I can get gnus to automatically sign messages From more clueful venues differently. Maybe there is a way to fetch correspondants' user agents and store that info in the BBDB, then use that for signing method decision ? There should at least be some way to distinguish mailing lists and newsgroups from private correspondance, either by a careful group naming scheme, or by using group parameters. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Sat, Sep 04 2004 at 05:54:24PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: #secure method=pgp mode=sign Just out of curiosity what is the purpose of the line above? I have seen it only on Paul's messages and it seems unnecessary. -- Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. - Brian W. Kernighan Thomas Stivers e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Thomas Stivers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sat, Sep 04 2004 at 05:54:24PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: #secure method=pgp mode=sign Just out of curiosity what is the purpose of the line above? I have seen it only on Paul's messages and it seems unnecessary. It's an mml (MIME Meta Language) tag. Paul uses Gnus, which in turn uses Emacs' Message mode to compose messages. mml is a tagging language mecanism used by Emacs' message mode to convey meta-information internally to the MUA, mainly to compose mime messages. AFAICT, it shouldn't actually appear in the resulting message, instead it should be rewritten as some MIME stanzas - or, in this case, as an inline PGP sig I guess. To give you an idea of what use they are, if I want to encrypt a message I add an mml tag to it. The message only actually gets encrypted at the time I send it. This way, I can edit it without breaking the crypto. You can see it as a way to say hey, MUA - remember to encrypt just before sending - but not now, it is too early. Signing, encrypting, attaching some file work this way in Gnus world. So what you see in Paul's messages looks to me like a leftover of a Gnus missetup[1]. Paul: You might want to investigate that. There are two issues that I can see: First, this mml tag shouldn't end up in the final message, should it ? Second, ISTR that PGP/MIME is recommended over inline PGP. The reason is that mail systems can handle reliably automatically PGP/MIME signatures (handling being verify, strip, whatever). OTOH, they cannot with inline PGP. Regards, Footnotes: [1] Or, maybe, just maybe, some bug in Gnus. But as we all know, this fine piece of software is bug free, isn't it ?[2] [2] But then, with Gnus the difference between core Gnus code and personal configuration sometimes dims. That's half the fun with this MUA. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Wed, Sep 08 2004 at 02:42:24PM +0200, Raphaël Berbain wrote: It's an mml (MIME Meta Language) tag. Paul uses Gnus, which in turn uses Emacs' Message mode to compose messages. mml is a tagging language mecanism used by Emacs' message mode to convey meta-information internally to the MUA, mainly to compose mime messages. AFAICT, it shouldn't actually appear in the resulting message, instead it should be rewritten as some MIME stanzas - or, in this case, as an inline PGP sig I guess. Thanks for the info. All I know is once I tried gnus and it told me No gnus is good gnus. and I went back to mutt. :) Paul: You might want to investigate that. There are two issues that I can see: First, this mml tag shouldn't end up in the final message, should it ? Second, ISTR that PGP/MIME is recommended over inline PGP. The reason is that mail systems can handle reliably automatically PGP/MIME signatures (handling being verify, strip, whatever). OTOH, they cannot with inline PGP. Yay pgp/mime, but it still seems to befuddle some poorly designed but widely used MUA's. -- Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. - Brian W. Kernighan Thomas Stivers e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
#secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thomas Stivers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sat, Sep 04 2004 at 05:54:24PM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote: #secure method=pgp mode=sign Just out of curiosity what is the purpose of the line above? I have seen it only on Paul's messages and it seems unnecessary. It tells gnus that the message should be signed. Normally, it is removed automagically, but lately it has not been. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBPzEiUzgNqloQMwcRAnXtAJ9Yp79eU3GTfUHihfx0wDiVTXhP7ACfQ6eD B6GCxsHhng7SnjYyek8MDRs= =G154 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
#secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Raphaël Berbain) writes: Paul: You might want to investigate that. There are two issues that I can see: First, this mml tag shouldn't end up in the final message, should it ? No, it shouldn't. Not sure what is causing that. Second, ISTR that PGP/MIME is recommended over inline PGP. Unfortunately, Outlook Express doesn't handle MIME properly, so PGP/MIME is out unless I can get gnus to automatically sign messages - From more clueful venues differently. The reason is that mail systems can handle reliably automatically PGP/MIME signatures (handling being verify, strip, whatever). OTOH, they cannot with inline PGP. I've yet to see a PGP-aware MUA that didn't recognize both on sight. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBPzHnUzgNqloQMwcRAnmWAJwKWzVNXu/Zrm700udPG/T9spkndACgzjBe hE0GZFPJk1P2XEp7WY2KoqU= =DtVO -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Wednesday September 8 at 09:23am Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Raphaël Berbain) writes: The reason is that mail systems can handle reliably automatically PGP/MIME signatures (handling being verify, strip, whatever). OTOH, they cannot with inline PGP. I've yet to see a PGP-aware MUA that didn't recognize both on sight. Sylpheed-claws deals very nicely with PGP/MIME, but inline requires an 'action' to pipe the message to gnupg, or more recently, a plugin. -- -johann koenig Today is Sweetmorn, the 32nd day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3170 My public pgp key: http://mental-graffiti.com/pgp/ pgppE7hVJeRNA.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Sunday 05 September 2004 01:52, Paul Johnson wrote: I'll just hand the cluebat off to Karsten for this one, since he's answered it quite nicely already from the last time some pinhead got upset at established standards. http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Rants/gpg-signed-mail.html Interesting reading, the encryption is standardized, but it is not standardized that you have to use it in places where it doesn't make sense to use it. In my opinion it doesn't make sense to sign emails on a mailing list. But, it is your right to overdo just as much as I can tell you that you overdo. cu -- Svenn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Craig Jackson wrote: Hi Craig! | My own idea is that PGP/GPG could save us all from spam and SMTP | messages being clear text in one fell swoop. If everyone | encrypted their email using GPG/PGP and refused to accept | unencrypted email or mail not encrypted with their public key, I agree, I use GPG (and before PGP) for a long time. And anything is quite easy if you have a mailer that supports signing and encrypting on the fly. Since I need a windows computer to access the internet, I came to Mozilla/Enigmail (since it exists on both os) and that is great and really easy. But even if I read mail in a textmode console window, I don't have any problem with signed mail at all (mutt). I use some procmail filter to check, if a signed mail is really vaild (same with encrypted) and the senders key is in my own (list-)keyring. So all these mails won't be spam and need no further checking. So IMHO signing can also be much useful on mailinglists too, since it can keep spammers out (hey, is there not some discussion that M$ likes to implement a senderid for the same purpose?). I'm on some lists that require to send signed mails to it to prove that you are not a spammer. And when I remember even debian-devel-announce uses something like this. Also recently I have some spam mails that have forged PGP/GPG Headers just to make them look like signed mail :-) Cheers, Jan - -- GPG-KeyID: 82201FC4 Available at my public keyserver www.gpg-keyserver.de -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBOtrAvvmCkIIgH8QRArpuAKC2J3GE6XPNbUS2U+xT6kkEue3GpACgy8cN Xpyn2+I1inrIR0wl2BQJXm8= =Ickj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Saturday, 04 September 2004 18:54, Paul Johnson wrote: Most people don't encrypt mail with GPG, though they do sign with it. I usually see GPG-encryption in IM. Encryption wouldn't work for mailing lists, either, though signing does. In *general* encryption isn't that useful for a run-of-the-mill mailing list, but, encryption can be used for a mailing list in quite a few different effective ways depending on what the goal was. For on simple example, if a mailing list, say, debian-encrypted, decided that it only wanted, say, *currently subscribed DDs* to be able to read messages posted there, it could encrypt all messages sent through it with the verified GPG keys corresponding to the DD's e-mail addresses who were subscribed to it. This could be pretty easily accomplished with any existing mailing-list software that let's you run a command to pre-process messages flowing through it. Sorry to interrupt. ;) -- Wesley J. Landaker [EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenPGP FP: 4135 2A3B 4726 ACC5 9094 0097 F0A9 8A4C 4CD6 E3D2 pgpUyleL7J84R.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Saturday, 04 September 2004 09:02, Svenn Are Bjerkem wrote: But they don't seem to be willing to listen, or even try to understand the problem they may cause by their arrogant behaviour. I read this thread, but must have missed it. What exactly is the problem they may cause? -- Wesley J. Landaker [EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenPGP FP: 4135 2A3B 4726 ACC5 9094 0097 F0A9 8A4C 4CD6 E3D2 pgpHEpcgby9p2.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 19:49:12 -0500, Craig Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do we need SPF or Madrid? For seamlessness? Heck with that. PGP/GPG would help to actually fix a problem rather than patch one. On the other hand, signing messages with GPG only deals with one of the problems with spam -- the waste of the recipient's time. The problem that companies and ISPs are more concerned with is resource usage. If you have to store the spam on your mail spool, then it's costing you money. The only way to get rid of _that_ problem is to stop the spam before it reaches disk. That could either be done by stopping the spam earlier in the chain or making it unprofitable to spam. If everyone used GPG and checked signatures on every message, spam wouldn't be worth sending. 100% GPG utilization is not likely to happen anytime soon, if ever. Who's likely not to use it? Who's likely to respond to spam? I suspect you'll find a lot of overlap: people who are somewhat naive about computers and the Internet. -- Michael A. Marsh http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~mmarsh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Friday 03 September 2004 19:05, s. keeling wrote: Well, that's the dumbest thought I've seen in a while. I've seen more signed posts to Usenet than I see in mailing lists. Then we don't hang out on the same usenet groups, I understand, because I really can't agree on that statement. And arguing that everybody does it so why stop, is just as dumb. cu -- Svenn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Friday 03 September 2004 19:11, Paul Johnson wrote: People sign their messages on Usenet as well. If you don't like PGP or GPG, that's a personal problem that you need to take care of on your own. Oh, so it is a personal problem... Well, I am taking care of it: I am asking those who do to stop. But they don't seem to be willing to listen, or even try to understand the problem they may cause by their arrogant behaviour. I can't hit you with a big stick, so there is no reason to speak softly, you wouldn't care anyway. Would you? Why do you need to sign all your mails to a mailing list? Are you afraid that we wouldn't take you seriously unless you did so? Kind regards, -- Svenn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 17:02:15 +0200 Svenn Are Bjerkem [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 03 September 2004 19:11, Paul Johnson wrote: People sign their messages on Usenet as well. If you don't like PGP or GPG, that's a personal problem that you need to take care of on your own. Oh, so it is a personal problem... Well, I am taking care of it: I am asking those who do to stop. But they don't seem to be willing to listen, or even try to understand the problem they may cause by their arrogant behaviour. I can't hit you with a big stick, so there is no reason to speak softly, you wouldn't care anyway. Would you? Why do you need to sign all your mails to a mailing list? Are you afraid that we wouldn't take you seriously unless you did so? Isn't the signing of email to ensure the identity of the person posting and the integrity of the email? On most lists I'd say that's not really important, but on lists involving flames, I'd say why not. I don't know, I just subscribed to this list. Do we have flames? Or just friendly args? C
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
#secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Svenn Are Bjerkem [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Friday 03 September 2004 19:11, Paul Johnson wrote: People sign their messages on Usenet as well. If you don't like PGP or GPG, that's a personal problem that you need to take care of on your own. Oh, so it is a personal problem... Well, I am taking care of it: I am asking those who do to stop. That's not a solution, that's making yourself look like an ass. But they don't seem to be willing to listen, or even try to understand the problem they may cause by their arrogant behaviour. No. People aren't willing to listen to you because you are demonstrating a tremendous lack of clue in the matter, and insist on dictating your uneducated opinion on everybody else. Why do you need to sign all your mails to a mailing list? Are you afraid that we wouldn't take you seriously unless you did so? I'll just hand the cluebat off to Karsten for this one, since he's answered it quite nicely already from the last time some pinhead got upset at established standards. http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Rants/gpg-signed-mail.html -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBOlVIUzgNqloQMwcRAvotAKDgtXGx/ANnDiftXWB3vMXNjhu2HwCghW3O ildBmDR1MM/xhQkY9Hn0LAA= =OVwV -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
#secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Craig Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do we have flames? Or just friendly args? Generally, not even arguments. Flames only come up when someone is insisting to be totally clueless. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBOlVwUzgNqloQMwcRAnaqAKDXj2XUf2oS7+vzaFqTKQacfPV0LwCgldE7 Tz+eABW+G/UuuTkWDmj8zDc= =4TIa -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 16:53:20 -0700 Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: #secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Craig Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do we have flames? Or just friendly args? Generally, not even arguments. Flames only come up when someone is insisting to be totally clueless. My own idea is that PGP/GPG could save us all from spam and SMTP messages being clear text in one fell swoop. If everyone encrypted their email using GPG/PGP and refused to accept unencrypted email or mail not encrypted with their public key, spammers would have a heck of a time tracking all of those public keys then have to use a few CPU cycles to encrypt before sending, not to mention a few million keys to juggle. And surely the enduser PGP/GPG software could be made easy enough to use for the average Joe -- as in find the recipient's key, encrypt and send-- doh. Why do we need SPF or Madrid? For seamlessness? Heck with that. PGP/GPG would help to actually fix a problem rather than patch one. Craig Way out in left field with the solution. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Sat, Sep 04, 2004 at 05:02:15PM +0200, Svenn Are Bjerkem wrote: On Friday 03 September 2004 19:11, Paul Johnson wrote: People sign their messages on Usenet as well. ?If you don't like PGP or GPG, that's a personal problem that you need to take care of on your own. Oh, so it is a personal problem... Well, I am taking care of it: I am asking those who do to stop. But they don't seem to be willing to listen, or even try to understand the problem they may cause by their arrogant behaviour. I can't hit you with a big stick, so there is no reason to speak softly, you wouldn't care anyway. Would you? Linux is bigger than that. Write a script to strip PGP signatures and plug it into your MTA. Then we're all happy. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
#secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Craig Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My own idea is that PGP/GPG could save us all from spam and SMTP messages being clear text in one fell swoop. If everyone encrypted their email using GPG/PGP and refused to accept unencrypted email or mail not encrypted with their public key, spammers would have a heck of a time tracking all of those public keys then have to use a few CPU cycles to encrypt before sending, not to mention a few million keys to juggle. Most people don't encrypt mail with GPG, though they do sign with it. I usually see GPG-encryption in IM. Encryption wouldn't work for mailing lists, either, though signing does. And surely the enduser PGP/GPG software could be made easy enough to use for the average Joe -- as in find the recipient's key, encrypt and send-- doh. It already is. Why do we need SPF or Madrid? For seamlessness? Heck with that. PGP/GPG would help to actually fix a problem rather than patch one. No kidding. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBOmPDUzgNqloQMwcRAnLRAJ93xK7F4ltVCfoGaGau8RFBNHNBfgCgkpRm 5TxKwGzcj0cFlfpY6up77RM= =lNOf -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Tuesday 31 August 2004 22:01, Paul Johnson wrote: Why fracture and duplicate the effort already taken care of by lists.debian.org? Because we are fed up with people using pgp and gpg on emails to mailinglists. -- Svenn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Paul, can you turn off this pgp crap? It is annoying On Wednesday 01 September 2004 01:04, Paul Johnson wrote: #secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 ... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBNQPnUzgNqloQMwcRAuizAKC6vHzyJTWQeawSAN2SOHsUSdFLxgCfWCLM xUNSlNy1GQ5a4gsKiQQ61nY= =APKT -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Svenn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Incoming from Svenn Are Bjerkem: On Tuesday 31 August 2004 22:01, Paul Johnson wrote: Why fracture and duplicate the effort already taken care of by lists.debian.org? Because we are fed up with people using pgp and gpg on emails to mailinglists. Well, that's the dumbest thought I've seen in a while. I've seen more signed posts to Usenet than I see in mailing lists. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling - - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
#secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Svenn Are Bjerkem [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tuesday 31 August 2004 22:01, Paul Johnson wrote: Why fracture and duplicate the effort already taken care of by lists.debian.org? Because we are fed up with people using pgp and gpg on emails to mailinglists. People sign their messages on Usenet as well. If you don't like PGP or GPG, that's a personal problem that you need to take care of on your own. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBOKW8UzgNqloQMwcRAg2cAKCxKXzxqsRv9Tljcvx1H6/SdvYWUgCggt30 C4YL+iAYFMnymCslQEajFbU= =f411 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
begin Henrique de Moraes Holschuh [EMAIL PROTECTED] dedi ki: On Wed, 01 Sep 2004, Kirk Strauser wrote: On Wednesday 01 September 2004 07:01 pm, Travis Crump wrote: I don't mean the latency of posting-post appearing, I mean the latency of clicking a subject and seeing the body. For e-mail the latency is roughly equal to a hard drive access since fetchmail fetches my mail in the background. Your PC would carry the whole NG instead of the messages you're interested in. In the long run you would have two choices: Either set up a rather short expiry period (which would clear away the messages you might like to keep longer), or have a rather bloated inbox (or appropriate folders) which would stretch access time to disk, perhaps to the point it would take downloading it from the net. A third option could be setting up separate expirations and filters for each folder (list), separately marking each message you like to keep longer, and generally putting up with a galore of unnecessary toil. OTOH, with an offline news reader you can download all the headers, mark the ones you would like to read offline, get online and download the marked messages, then read and reply to them offline. Quite efficient. Additionally you would have cached only the messages you have deliberately downloaded. So you could set a really long expiration period, and still you would have quite a light and fast message cache. So install Leafnode and use that as your local server. In which case he might be better off with email anyway. Right. Also I would prefer to use the right method in the first place, rather than try to circumvent shortcoming of a wrong method. For usenet, it is equal to a network access as the body needs to be fetched from a usenet server. I suppose that you could pre-fetch all the bodies, but that would negate one of the 'benefits' that the post I was reponding to mentioned. This is so with online news readers (like KNode). But with an offline reader (like Mozilla or Pan) you don't have to prefetch all the bodies. I take it you're using POP3 to read your email. IMAP works basically the same way as NNTP, so there's no clear win either way. Is it possible to work offline with IMAP? I.e. download headers, mark some, than get the ones marked for download. And if you use a new Cyrus IMAPd (no, I didn't upload a package of it yet), it also accesses the same thing :-) You can access the same spool using either NNTP or IMAP. And get messages into it using either NNTP or LMTP. So all your email and netnews sit on the same place. This may be a clever solution. But it is awkward to employ a server just to be able to circumvent limitations imposed by using wrong tools for the task at hand. NNTP is specifically designed for threaded discussions, and it has all the bells and whistles inherently needed for the task. Whereas with mail one has to twist and bend to get somewhere near. In a nutshell I see this whole mail lists for public discussions thing like this: A teaspoon can be used as a screw-driver, and a screw-driver can be used to mix a cup of tea. But what is the point? -- Abdullah| aramazan@ | Ramazanoglu | myrealbox | | D.0.T cm |__ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
#secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Abdullah Ramazanoglu [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Your PC would carry the whole NG instead of the messages you're interested in. In the long run you would have two choices: Either set up a rather short expiry period (which would clear away the messages you might like to keep longer), or have a rather bloated inbox (or appropriate folders) which would stretch access time to disk, perhaps to the point it would take downloading it from the net. NNTPCache is the happy middle. A third option could be setting up separate expirations and filters for each folder (list), separately marking each message you like to keep longer, and generally putting up with a galore of unnecessary toil. It's not that big of a deal with gnus. I take it you're using POP3 to read your email. IMAP works basically the same way as NNTP, so there's no clear win either way. Is it possible to work offline with IMAP? I.e. download headers, mark some, than get the ones marked for download. Yup. This may be a clever solution. But it is awkward to employ a server just to be able to circumvent limitations imposed by using wrong tools for the task at hand. NNTP is specifically designed for threaded discussions, and it has all the bells and whistles inherently needed for the task. Whereas with mail one has to twist and bend to get somewhere near. Once again, that is not true. Mail also has a concept of threads. Compare Followup-To in news to References in mail. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBN5VeUzgNqloQMwcRAoFbAJ9z/gkQqyjHkQg4S2ei/SEKL9mShACeOZd5 DfePGI9t6TeEtC6wO2Z6qh0= =I4Xn -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
begin Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] dedi ki: Abdullah Ramazanoglu [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: --8-- I take it you're using POP3 to read your email. IMAP works basically the same way as NNTP, so there's no clear win either way. Is it possible to work offline with IMAP? I.e. download headers, mark some, than get the ones marked for download. Yup. Then someone has to clear unwanted messages from the IMAP server. And once cleared, they're gone for good. Whereas with NNTP, no explicit deletion needed: You just don't download the message and that's all. Also, non-downloaded messages are still waiting there on the server, ready to be read anytime until they're expired from the NNTP server. Oh, BTW I completely forgot another important issue with mail lists: All those wasted internet bandwith, list-server cycles, and overloaded mailboxes (at ISP and local PC). Which translate into additional costs, to be paid by someone(s). This may be a clever solution. But it is awkward to employ a server just to be able to circumvent limitations imposed by using wrong tools for the task at hand. NNTP is specifically designed for threaded discussions, and it has all the bells and whistles inherently needed for the task. Whereas with mail one has to twist and bend to get somewhere near. Once again, that is not true. Mail also has a concept of threads. Compare Followup-To in news to References in mail. Agreed. I was referring to threaded discussions for the sake of completeness of the definition, not to particularly emphasize on threading abilities. -- Abdullah| aramazan@ | Ramazanoglu | myrealbox | | D.0.T cm |__ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Wednesday 01 September 2004 19:58, Abdullah Ramazanoglu wrote: It's my first post here, and I'm having hard time trying to underderstand why linux.debian.* is being run as mailing list in the first place. I have no problems with moderation and revealing my mail address (it's my spam collector anyway). But SMTP is for mail, NNTP is for threaded discussions. I had once subscribed to several lists, and seeing how awfully inefficient it is for such things, I had summarily stopped all my list subscriptions, and I will not subscribe to a single list anymore, no matter what, as a principle. Using mail as a vehicle for threaded discussion, seems to me only good for a tightly knit closed group. I can't understand why a public, usenet-mirrored group should be implemented as a mail list. For added gatewaying complexities? To download all the message bodies that I wouldn't read? To always feel that paranoia that my message might not be gatewayed to mail subscribers? To provide some with an oportunity to fork? (I suspect it will turn into a trolling place). Why not simply a moderated plain and straight, simple usenet NG? I have a strong reason - I only want one application to read all these discussion on. I run kde, and kmail is ergonomically far far easier to read mailing lists fast (and all the messages are properly threaded) than any of the news reading programs I've tried (knode and pan to name but two). In fact, I prefer that so much so, that I run my own mailman mailing list gated to a newsgroup that I wish to read with just me subscribed so that I can read it in the same application. -- Alan Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. --Gandhi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 09:14:20AM +0800, John Summerfield wrote: It's handy to reveal your genuine email address in order to subscribe to the list, but AFAIK you can use a completley bogus address to write to it. If you do this, pls ensure you do use a bogus address and not some other poor sod's address. Or [EMAIL PROTECTED] You could also look into using a temporary forwarding address. The spamgourmet.net address on this message will forward 11 messages back to me, then it will silently delete any further messages sent to it. There are several other providers of similar services, google will reveal all. dt -- Dave Thayer | WARNING: Persons denying the existence of Denver, Colorado USA | robots may be robots themselves. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Paul Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Madhusudan Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul Johnson wrote: #secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Madhusudan Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is not a fracture or duplication. To post to this group, I had to reveal my email address and go through a two email process of subscription. No, you didn't. It's an open list. It is not. I received the following message from a moderation robot when I tried to post a message to linux.debian.user : Well, there's your first problem. This isn't a newsgroup, the newsgroup mirrors are generally considered archive-only. Is there a consensus about that? I mean, I've seen many people say that the newsgroup gateway is unidirectional (from mailinglist to gateway), and my own experience confirms that. But in another post here, Marco d'Itri (who is the administrator of linux.* and runs bofh.it according to Pascal Hakim) says If one reads a debian mailing list in a linux.debian.* group and wants to reply to the list he is supposed to followup to the newsgroup and NOT to directly reply to the list. and Fortunatly, linux.* *IS* a bidirectional gateway, unless your news server is misconfigured.. I'm confused. Is the gateway bidirectional and is almost everyone's news server misconfigured? Is everyone doing something wrong? Or is it just me? -- Codito ergo sum Roel Schroeven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Roel Schroeven [EMAIL PROTECTED] said on Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:12:47 +0200: Fortunatly, linux.* *IS* a bidirectional gateway, unless your news server is misconfigured.. I'm confused. Is the gateway bidirectional and is almost everyone's news server misconfigured? Is everyone doing something wrong? Or is it just me? With our current news software, I don't recall having done any tests recently with the various news groups that end up mailing stuff to a moderator. I think sci.astro.research does this - and it works for me. I don't recall whether I have ever posted to sci.astro.fits, but no-one has ever complained about it not working there. I have a feeling alt.humor.best-of-usenet is meant to mail to a moderator if you post to that group, but I just mail the moderator address manually. Same with the internet oracle - I can't think of any decent queries to ask it right now, so I'm afraid I can't test it :) I know that if a group asks the client to followup to another group (rec.humor.oracle - rec.humor.oracle.d and AHBOU to AHBOUD, etc), my client (slrn) obeys that request properly. So it seems perhaps this whole gateway news--mail thing is perhaps a hit-and-miss affair. -- TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/ All science is either physics or stamp collecting. -- Ernest Rutherford -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a consensus about that? I mean, I've seen many people say that the newsgroup gateway is unidirectional (from mailinglist to gateway), and my own experience confirms that. This is not a matter of opinions: the linux.debian.* mail2news gateway *IS* bidirectional, full stop. But in another post here, Marco d'Itri (who is the administrator of linux.* and runs bofh.it according to Pascal Hakim) says If one reads a debian mailing list in a linux.debian.* group and wants to reply to the list he is supposed to followup to the newsgroup and NOT to directly reply to the list. Yes. Mail replies will break threading. The gateway is open to everyone with a valid email address, which is something you would expect from users posting to a mailing list. If somebody thinks that munging their address when posting to usenet will keep it secret forever... well, they will quickly have to face reality anyway. The newsgroups are configured as moderated because this makes gating easier and more robust, but posts are not manually moderated and are either posted to the list and newsgroup after a few minutes or rejected for technical reasons. Fortunatly, linux.* *IS* a bidirectional gateway, unless your news server is misconfigured.. I'm confused. Is the gateway bidirectional and is almost everyone's news server misconfigured? Is everyone doing something wrong? Or is it just me? The number of users succesfully using with success the linux.* gateway suggests that if there is a problem it exists only on a small number of servers. (Actually I monitor my news server for unapproved articles, and they are *very* uncommon nowadays.) -- ciao, Marco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Incoming from Paul Johnson: But now that your address is out in the open, there's no real point in munging it anyway, so what's the problem? It was out in the open when he tried to post to linux.debian.user; Swen is still out there, still scraping mail addresses. So that alone is reason enough not to go through all that pointless munging: Your fellow Windows users are undermining it for you. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBNhRlUzgNqloQMwcRArEZAKDl6zOe7eYrVx5Q+eP4q1ePYEyRFACg1F/7 RTC6uvld2IriDmT1FwPV02w= =0n9/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Marco d'Itri [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If one reads a debian mailing list in a linux.debian.* group and wants to reply to the list he is supposed to followup to the newsgroup and NOT to directly reply to the list. Yes. Mail replies will break threading. Mail replies will break threading, unless you're using an MUA that is also NNTP-aware or vice-versa. Gnus is an example of a user agent that doesn't choke on protocol change. The gateway is open to everyone with a valid email address, which is something you would expect from users posting to a mailing list. If somebody thinks that munging their address when posting to usenet will keep it secret forever... well, they will quickly have to face reality anyway. For unusually small values of forever. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBNhU4UzgNqloQMwcRAhO5AJ4zhuwIPQl6OnI4SLdByFs1aBTxcgCfRL4a aAD9JYFPb6DUtzKbq5UkFJ0= =eIgt -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Marco d'Itri wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a consensus about that? I mean, I've seen many people say that the newsgroup gateway is unidirectional (from mailinglist to gateway), and my own experience confirms that. This is not a matter of opinions: the linux.debian.* mail2news gateway *IS* bidirectional, full stop. I posted a test message as a follow-up to your message to the newsgroup at 15:32 UTC. It appeared almost immediately on the newsgroup, but it still hasn't appeared on the mailing list (it's 18:44 UTC now, that more than 3 hours later). Not meaning to offend you, I'm just trying to clear this issue up once and for all. It might very well be that I did something wrong, or that my ISP has its news server badly configured. If any of that is the case, please tell me the nature of the problem so I can take steps to solve it. If something else is wrong, I would also very much like to learn the nature of the problem. I can post the whole message as it appears in the newsgroup, if that can be of any help. -- Codito ergo sum Roel Schroeven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
begin Marco d'Itri [EMAIL PROTECTED] dedi ki: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a consensus about that? I mean, I've seen many people say that the newsgroup gateway is unidirectional (from mailinglist to gateway), and my own experience confirms that. This is not a matter of opinions: the linux.debian.* mail2news gateway *IS* bidirectional, full stop. But in another post here, Marco d'Itri (who is the administrator of linux.* and runs bofh.it according to Pascal Hakim) says If one reads a debian mailing list in a linux.debian.* group and wants to reply to the list he is supposed to followup to the newsgroup and NOT to directly reply to the list. Yes. Mail replies will break threading. The gateway is open to everyone with a valid email address, which is something you would expect from users posting to a mailing list. If somebody thinks that munging their address when posting to usenet will keep it secret forever... well, they will quickly have to face reality anyway. The newsgroups are configured as moderated because this makes gating easier and more robust, but posts are not manually moderated and are either posted to the list and newsgroup after a few minutes or rejected for technical reasons. Fortunatly, linux.* *IS* a bidirectional gateway, unless your news server is misconfigured.. I'm confused. Is the gateway bidirectional and is almost everyone's news server misconfigured? Is everyone doing something wrong? Or is it just me? The number of users succesfully using with success the linux.* gateway suggests that if there is a problem it exists only on a small number of servers. (Actually I monitor my news server for unapproved articles, and they are *very* uncommon nowadays.) It's my first post here, and I'm having hard time trying to underderstand why linux.debian.* is being run as mailing list in the first place. I have no problems with moderation and revealing my mail address (it's my spam collector anyway). But SMTP is for mail, NNTP is for threaded discussions. I had once subscribed to several lists, and seeing how awfully inefficient it is for such things, I had summarily stopped all my list subscriptions, and I will not subscribe to a single list anymore, no matter what, as a principle. Using mail as a vehicle for threaded discussion, seems to me only good for a tightly knit closed group. I can't understand why a public, usenet-mirrored group should be implemented as a mail list. For added gatewaying complexities? To download all the message bodies that I wouldn't read? To always feel that paranoia that my message might not be gatewayed to mail subscribers? To provide some with an oportunity to fork? (I suspect it will turn into a trolling place). Why not simply a moderated plain and straight, simple usenet NG? P.S: It's my second trial. At first trial I used a fake mail address but correct Reply-To. It bounced from moderation robot, and I don't know whether it's because Reply-To is not accepted, or because my registration was so new that it was not yet in effect. Is Reply-To accepted? -- Abdullah| aramazan@ | Ramazanoglu | myrealbox | | D.0.T cm |__ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Abdullah Ramazanoglu wrote: It's my first post here, and I'm having hard time trying to underderstand why linux.debian.* is being run as mailing list in the first place. I have no problems with moderation and revealing my mail address (it's my spam collector anyway). But SMTP is for mail, NNTP is for threaded discussions. I had once subscribed to several lists, and seeing how awfully inefficient it is for such things, I had summarily stopped all my list subscriptions, and I will not subscribe to a single list anymore, no matter what, as a principle. I prefer newsgroups too. But since there is little chance too convince those in power, gmane (http://gmane.org/) is a nice workaround. -- Codito ergo sum Roel Schroeven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
begin Roel Schroeven [EMAIL PROTECTED] dedi ki: Marco d'Itri wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a consensus about that? I mean, I've seen many people say that the newsgroup gateway is unidirectional (from mailinglist to gateway), and my own experience confirms that. This is not a matter of opinions: the linux.debian.* mail2news gateway *IS* bidirectional, full stop. I posted a test message as a follow-up to your message to the newsgroup at 15:32 UTC. It appeared almost immediately on the newsgroup, but it still hasn't appeared on the mailing list (it's 18:44 UTC now, that more than 3 hours later). Not meaning to offend you, I'm just trying to clear this issue up once and for all. It might very well be that I did something wrong, or that my ISP has its news server badly configured. If any of that is the case, please tell me the nature of the problem so I can take steps to solve it. If something else is wrong, I would also very much like to learn the nature of the problem. I can post the whole message as it appears in the newsgroup, if that can be of any help. Roel your message is threaded into wrong place (under Paul's [EMAIL PROTECTED] message) at news.individual.net server. Also your first message does not appear at this server. Though it appears twice at freenews.netfront.net, one at the place stated above, and the other at the right place. Also your first message appears here. -- Abdullah| aramazan@ | Ramazanoglu | myrealbox | | D.0.T cm |__ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
#secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Abdullah Ramazanoglu [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's my first post here, and I'm having hard time trying to underderstand why linux.debian.* is being run as mailing list in the first place. It's not, [EMAIL PROTECTED] is the list, all the newsgroups mirroring the list are just that: Mirrors. They ARE NOT the list, and ARE NOT supported by Debian, only the mailing lists on lists.debian.org are supported by Debian. I have no problems with moderation and revealing my mail address (it's my spam collector anyway). But SMTP is for mail, NNTP is for threaded discussions. Mail has threads, too. See the References header. Most mail readers these days handle threads just fine, too. I had once subscribed to several lists, and seeing how awfully inefficient it is for such things, I had summarily stopped all my list subscriptions, and I will not subscribe to a single list anymore, no matter what, as a principle. So deal with those consequences on your own. P.S: It's my second trial. At first trial I used a fake mail address but correct Reply-To. It bounced from moderation robot, and I don't know whether it's because Reply-To is not accepted, or because my registration was so new that it was not yet in effect. Is Reply-To accepted? How should we know why you can't use the list? You insist on using someone's mail2news gateway. As you've been told before, if you have a question about the gateway, go pester them. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBNiqmUzgNqloQMwcRAtbrAKCF0QSOv9yktxVou1DFOhQA92NNFwCfVlFT /9EAQ6DZJoEakXqojr7NMDc= =eYKP -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Wednesday 01 September 2004 13:58, Abdullah Ramazanoglu wrote: But SMTP is for mail, NNTP is for threaded discussions. I had once subscribed to several lists, and seeing how awfully inefficient it is for such things, I had summarily stopped all my list subscriptions, and I will not subscribe to a single list anymore, no matter what, as a principle. That's the dumbest thing I've read today. SMTP and NNTP are transport protocols - how your client handles the messages is entirely up to your client. I used Gnus for a long time and it makes essentially no distinction between mail and news. I had several topics with Usenet and IMAP folders intermixed in alphabetical order and there was no visible difference in their appearance. If you've used bad mail clients, then it's time to find better ones. -- Kirk Strauser pgpDt8yArnjgf.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Abdullah Ramazanoglu wrote: It's my first post here, and I'm having hard time trying to underderstand why linux.debian.* is being run as mailing list in the first place. I have no problems with moderation and revealing my mail address (it's my spam collector anyway). But SMTP is for mail, NNTP is for threaded discussions. I had once subscribed to several lists, and seeing how awfully inefficient it is for such things, I had summarily stopped all my list subscriptions, and I will not subscribe to a single list anymore, no matter what, as a principle. Using mail as a vehicle for threaded discussion, seems to me only good for a tightly knit closed group. I can't understand why a public, usenet-mirrored group should be implemented as a mail list. For added gatewaying complexities? To download all the message bodies that I wouldn't read? Personally, I never liked the latency inherent in usenet. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
#secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Travis Crump [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Personally, I never liked the latency inherent in usenet. These days, it's about the same latency as email unless you're in some far-off corner of the planet connected only via carrier pigeon or something equally obscure. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBNlk3UzgNqloQMwcRAo2TAKDYGd6WjEZ2Wn38M9+AgQ8GpEvuDQCcCEbN z2meeN/I5zavDPDTyx+oDDM= =aEFB -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Paul Johnson wrote: #secure method=pgp mode=sign Travis Crump [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Personally, I never liked the latency inherent in usenet. These days, it's about the same latency as email unless you're in some far-off corner of the planet connected only via carrier pigeon or something equally obscure. I don't mean the latency of posting-post appearing, I mean the latency of clicking a subject and seeing the body. For e-mail the latency is roughly equal to a hard drive access since fetchmail fetches my mail in the background. For usenet, it is equal to a network access as the body needs to be fetched from a usenet server. I suppose that you could pre-fetch all the bodies, but that would negate one of the 'benefits' that the post I was reponding to mentioned. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If one reads a debian mailing list in a linux.debian.* group and wants to reply to the list he is supposed to followup to the newsgroup and NOT to directly reply to the list. Yes. Mail replies will break threading. Mail replies will break threading, unless you're using an MUA that is So don't do it FFS! Why is this so hard to understand? If you read the newsgroup and you want post, you post in the newsgroup. That's all it takes, and what people are supposed to do anyway. If you had a bad experience with some shitty broken gateway it does not means that all gateways are like that. -- ciao, Marco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Wednesday 01 September 2004 07:01 pm, Travis Crump wrote: I don't mean the latency of posting-post appearing, I mean the latency of clicking a subject and seeing the body. For e-mail the latency is roughly equal to a hard drive access since fetchmail fetches my mail in the background. So install Leafnode and use that as your local server. For usenet, it is equal to a network access as the body needs to be fetched from a usenet server. I suppose that you could pre-fetch all the bodies, but that would negate one of the 'benefits' that the post I was reponding to mentioned. I take it you're using POP3 to read your email. IMAP works basically the same way as NNTP, so there's no clear win either way. -- Kirk Strauser pgptuqNFFNzNi.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
On Wed, 01 Sep 2004, Kirk Strauser wrote: So install Leafnode and use that as your local server. In which case he might be better off with email anyway. For usenet, it is equal to a network access as the body needs to be fetched from a usenet server. I suppose that you could pre-fetch all the bodies, but that would negate one of the 'benefits' that the post I was reponding to mentioned. I take it you're using POP3 to read your email. IMAP works basically the same way as NNTP, so there's no clear win either way. And if you use a new Cyrus IMAPd (no, I didn't upload a package of it yet), it also accesses the same thing :-) You can access the same spool using either NNTP or IMAP. And get messages into it using either NNTP or LMTP. So all your email and netnews sit on the same place. -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
#secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Marco d'Itri [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If one reads a debian mailing list in a linux.debian.* group and wants to reply to the list he is supposed to followup to the newsgroup and NOT to directly reply to the list. Yes. Mail replies will break threading. Mail replies will break threading, unless you're using an MUA that is So don't do it FFS! Why is this so hard to understand? I'm on your side. You cut off the rest of my sentence, in which I say, unless you're using an MUA that is also NNTP-aware, like gnus, or something to that effect. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBNqnPUzgNqloQMwcRAmy1AJ9a+WL7/VMasphHdibT2kWLH/WkZwCfTl1q BdpDKItSzhBzET5uQJEzcW4= =xLcf -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
#secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Madhusudan Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: alt.os.linux.debian Please help in propagating this newsgroup to your favorite news server by requesting them to carry it. Let us get it started. Why fracture and duplicate the effort already taken care of by lists.debian.org? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBNNkQUzgNqloQMwcRAgW9AJ96W2nOE3s7fz471DbhGIPD/D6siwCgnheg 7xpLRmrktpsiid+fz/Xdavo= =/vMb -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Paul Johnson wrote: #secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Madhusudan Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: alt.os.linux.debian Please help in propagating this newsgroup to your favorite news server by requesting them to carry it. Let us get it started. Why fracture and duplicate the effort already taken care of by lists.debian.org? This is not a fracture or duplication. To post to this group, I had to reveal my email address and go through a two email process of subscription. Those things might not be problematic for you, but as a long time user of the Usenet, I find these requirements onerous, and in the present day spam ridden Net experience, even inviting trouble, since this is a glorified mailing list. The new newsgroup does not have those problems. And since other newsgroups like comp.os.linux.misc etc. have done very well without moderation (whether automated or not), I do not see what purpose is served with a moderated newsgroup. Its not as if linux.debian.user discusses contentious issues where matters might get out of hand. Its a support NG where one gives and receives help. In any case, I think I had made these and other points rather clear in my earlier post. Here is the URL for mozilla and other such newsreaders : news://alt.os.linux.debian And if your favorite news server does not carry it yet, consider asking them to :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
#secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Madhusudan Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is not a fracture or duplication. To post to this group, I had to reveal my email address and go through a two email process of subscription. No, you didn't. It's an open list. Those things might not be problematic for you, but as a long time user of the Usenet, I find these requirements onerous, and in the present day spam ridden Net experience, even inviting trouble, since this is a glorified mailing list. http://www.interhack.net/pubs/munging-harmful/ You just need to manage your mail better and report email abuse if you think that. And since other newsgroups like comp.os.linux.misc etc. have done very well without moderation (whether automated or not), I do not see what purpose is served with a moderated newsgroup. Because it's distro-neutral. Its not as if linux.debian.user discusses contentious issues where matters might get out of hand. Its a support NG where one gives and receives help. linux.debian.user is a mirror of this list. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBNQPnUzgNqloQMwcRAuizAKC6vHzyJTWQeawSAN2SOHsUSdFLxgCfWCLM xUNSlNy1GQ5a4gsKiQQ61nY= =APKT -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Paul Johnson wrote: #secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Madhusudan Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is not a fracture or duplication. To post to this group, I had to reveal my email address and go through a two email process of subscription. No, you didn't. It's an open list. It is not. I received the following message from a moderation robot when I tried to post a message to linux.debian.user : linux.debian.user is a moderated newsgroup in gateway with a mailing list. Your article has been examined by the automatic moderation program and has been refused because: this hierarchy accepts posts only from registered users. You can register for posting by subscribing to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list. You can do so by sending a message with subscribe in the body at the [EMAIL PROTECTED] address or by visiting http://lists.bofh.it/listinfo/linux-gate . That does not sound very open to me. Those things might not be problematic for you, but as a long time user of the Usenet, I find these requirements onerous, and in the present day spam ridden Net experience, even inviting trouble, since this is a glorified mailing list. http://www.interhack.net/pubs/munging-harmful/ You just need to manage your mail better and report email abuse if you think that. I might have to do that for the spam that is everyone's lot these days. I see little reason to multiply my problems by revealing my email address (though I had to for this to get this message to this not so open list). Especially as one can do it simply by using a [EMAIL PROTECTED] style email address in one's Usenet postings (possible elsewhere but not on this list that pretends to be a newsgroup), I see little point in going through all the extra spam that joining any mailing list entails these days. And since other newsgroups like comp.os.linux.misc etc. have done very well without moderation (whether automated or not), I do not see what purpose is served with a moderated newsgroup. Because it's distro-neutral. alt.os.linux.slackware is hardly distro neutral, is it ? You want to discuss distro specific successful unmoderated newsgroups, go right ahead. I have a pretty long list. Its not as if linux.debian.user discusses contentious issues where matters might get out of hand. Its a support NG where one gives and receives help. linux.debian.user is a mirror of this list. I sent this post to linux.debian.user. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Madhusudan Singh writes: It is not. I received the following message from a moderation robot when I tried to post a message to linux.debian.user : linux.debian.user is a moderated newsgroup in gateway with a mailing list. The mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] is open. The newsgroup linux.debian.user is not a Debian mailing list. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, Wisconsin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Madhusudan Singh wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: #secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Madhusudan Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: alt.os.linux.debian Please help in propagating this newsgroup to your favorite news server by requesting them to carry it. Let us get it started. Why fracture and duplicate the effort already taken care of by lists.debian.org? This is not a fracture or duplication. To post to this group, I had to reveal my email address and go through a two email process of subscription. Those things might not be problematic for you, but as a long time user of the Usenet, I find these requirements onerous, and in the present day spam ridden Net experience, even inviting trouble, since this is a glorified mailing list. It's handy to reveal your genuine email address in order to subscribe to the list, but AFAIK you can use a completley bogus address to write to it. If you do this, pls ensure you do use a bogus address and not some other poor sod's address. Or [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, I don't mean that. Bill has enough problems already. What, with Longhorn slipping and fragmenting and all. -- Cheers John -- spambait [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tourist pics http://portgeographe.environmentaldisasters.cds.merseine.nu/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
John Hasler wrote: Madhusudan Singh writes: It is not. I received the following message from a moderation robot when I tried to post a message to linux.debian.user : linux.debian.user is a moderated newsgroup in gateway with a mailing list. The mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] is open. The newsgroup linux.debian.user is not a Debian mailing list. To send and receive an email to a mailing list, one needs to reveal one's email address. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Madhusudan Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul Johnson wrote: #secure method=pgp mode=sign -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Madhusudan Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is not a fracture or duplication. To post to this group, I had to reveal my email address and go through a two email process of subscription. No, you didn't. It's an open list. It is not. I received the following message from a moderation robot when I tried to post a message to linux.debian.user : Well, there's your first problem. This isn't a newsgroup, the newsgroup mirrors are generally considered archive-only. You can post to [EMAIL PROTECTED] without being subscribed. this hierarchy accepts posts only from registered users. You can register for posting by subscribing to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list. You can do so by sending a message with subscribe in the body at the [EMAIL PROTECTED] address or by visiting http://lists.bofh.it/listinfo/linux-gate . That does not sound very open to me. That's not our problem, nor are we the proper party for you to air your contempt. It's clear to me that you are pissed off about the policies of lists.bofh.it and not here. So go send your love letter to postmaster or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those things might not be problematic for you, but as a long time user of the Usenet, I find these requirements onerous, and in the present day spam ridden Net experience, even inviting trouble, since this is a glorified mailing list. http://www.interhack.net/pubs/munging-harmful/ You just need to manage your mail better and report email abuse if you think that. I might have to do that for the spam that is everyone's lot these days. I see little reason to multiply my problems by revealing my email address (though I had to for this to get this message to this not so open list). You didn't even read it, did you? If you're having a spam problem, you're not doing the right things to prevent it. Reporting spam *does* work. Procmail *does* work. Spamassassin *does* work. I get 200~700 messages a day, maybe 10 spam. Especially as one can do it simply by using a [EMAIL PROTECTED] style email address in one's Usenet postings (possible elsewhere but not on this list that pretends to be a newsgroup), I see little point in going through all the extra spam that joining any mailing list entails these days. But now that your address is out in the open, there's no real point in munging it anyway, so what's the problem? Drop the Californian attitude and get a clue. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBNSdVUzgNqloQMwcRAkAyAJ48/ncsbTJkNi5nGGbDGpaitR0x8ACglb8+ YfmmK6H0vqyw1H38BBxHkRQ= =ul9K -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
John Summerfield wrote: If you do this, pls ensure you do use a bogus address and not some other poor sod's address. Or [EMAIL PROTECTED] I believe that use of spam.invalid is the norm. No, I don't mean that. Bill has enough problems already. What, with Longhorn slipping and fragmenting and all. :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First general purpose unmoderated newsgroup for Debian
Incoming from Paul Johnson: But now that your address is out in the open, there's no real point in munging it anyway, so what's the problem? It was out in the open when he tried to post to linux.debian.user; Swen is still out there, still scraping mail addresses. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling - - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
