Re: How stable is SiD ?
On Sat, Sep 06, 2003 at 01:23:43PM -0400, Johan Kullstam wrote: Perhaps his video card isn't supported with the woody shipped xfree86? That's why I went straight for sid last August. (ATI Radeon 8500 needs 4.2.1.) At work I just got some crap corporate box with i845g graphics. I need xfree86 4.3. Please advise. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ lspci | grep VGA 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corp. 82845G/GL [Brookdale-G] Chipset Integrated Graphics Device (rev 01) [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ X -version 21 | grep Version XFree86 Version 4.2.1.1 (Debian 4.2.1-11 20030829103906 [EMAIL PROTECTED]) / X Window System (protocol Version 11, revision 0, vendor release 6600) [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ intel things tend to do have good linux drivers. have a look at: http://support.intel.com/support/graphics/linux/graphics.htm works for me (tm) HTH charlie -- Vgh Kroly - System Engineer - UTA - TIS.SAS.BSS Don't worry. Everything is getting nicely out of control. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How stable is SiD ?
On Fri, 2003-09-05 at 19:58, Nicolas Galler wrote: On Fri, 2003-09-05 at 11:30, Ron Johnson wrote: On Fri, 2003-09-05 at 12:20, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 03:27:47PM +0200, Joris Lambrecht wrote: [snip] Considering that my wife is reluctantly using Linux for college, I can't afford any bad press. Oh, please! MS products are chock full of bugs, and is wide open Those are called features in the MS world ;) Oh... PUH-LEASE. Correction: they are *NOT* called features. They are called Undocumented Features Get it right or don't try at all... SHEESH. -- greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMEMBER ED CURRY! http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry Never pet your dog when it is on fire. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: How stable is SiD ?
Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 03:27:47PM +0200, Joris Lambrecht wrote: Can anyone advise on starting to use SiD as resource for my Debian Workstation ? Doesn't it have to many issues left open, broken dependencies etc. If you have to ask, sid is not stable enough for you. Perhaps his video card isn't supported with the woody shipped xfree86? That's why I went straight for sid last August. (ATI Radeon 8500 needs 4.2.1.) At work I just got some crap corporate box with i845g graphics. I need xfree86 4.3. Please advise. -- Johan KULLSTAM -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How stable is SiD ?
Johan Kullstam verraste ons met de boodschap: Perhaps his video card isn't supported with the woody shipped xfree86? That's why I went straight for sid last August. (ATI Radeon 8500 needs 4.2.1.) At work I just got some crap corporate box with i845g graphics. I need xfree86 4.3. Please advise. if you're feeling lucky, you can fetch xfree86 4.3 from the experimental repository. just add the following to your sources.list: deb http://[your.debian.mirror]/debian ../project/experimental main and apt-get install -t experimental xserver-xfree86 xlibmesa-dri xlibmesa-gl xlibmesa-drm-src for dri-support, you may want to compile the modules in xlibmesa-drm-src with make-kpkg (from kernel-package) and modprobe the right one good luck, -- Joris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How stable is SiD ?
on Sat, Sep 06, 2003 at 01:23:43PM -0400, Johan Kullstam ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 03:27:47PM +0200, Joris Lambrecht wrote: Can anyone advise on starting to use SiD as resource for my Debian Workstation ? Doesn't it have to many issues left open, broken dependencies etc. If you have to ask, sid is not stable enough for you. Perhaps his video card isn't supported with the woody shipped xfree86? That's why I went straight for sid last August. (ATI Radeon 8500 needs 4.2.1.) At work I just got some crap corporate box with i845g graphics. I need xfree86 4.3. Please advise. 1. Report this problem to your video card vendor. I don't care if you're CTO of IBM or a one-week-temp and Spam-R-Us or Joe's Internet Taco Cafe. Vendors need to know that their customers are using their products with GNU/Linux, and demand XFree86 support. Do this regardless of any subsequent steps you take to resolve your problem. 2. Consider the option of using a supported card. It's not going to cost much -- last time I tried this trick, it consisted of walking into CompUSA and asking for the lowest-end video card they had (suitable for most office work; who are you kidding about your Gnumeric FPS score), cost was on the order of $25. Submit the receipt for reimbursement, and pass along _this_ request to your internal purchase manager or whitebox vendor. Cannibalizing an existing dead box might get you the card for free. 3. Go ahead and use 'testing'. You're insulated from most of the borkenness of unstable. Using 'pinning' and apt preferences, you can include unstable and testing sources, pull from testing by preference, but install selected unstable packages on an as-needed basis. This is what I do. It works most of the time. Note that using pinning to bridge the testing/unstable gap works pretty well (they're relatively close), but bridging stable to either testing or unstable is a real mess. In the latter case, you're trying to bridge 1-2 years of software development, often with large changes in basic foundations. Based on two minutes' hunting through Google and Google Groups, you're going to need XF86 v 4.3, which may not yet be in testing, but is available via unofficial debs from http://www.apt-get.org http://tinyurl.com/mhvh The general answer is this: GNU/Linux remains disadvantaged by hardware support policies, many of which have been historically shown to be influenced improperly by Microsoft. Free software is a powerful tool for circumventing this situation, but it requires a positive response on your part: telling the vendor that you want support, researching whether and how support is available, and taking necessary steps to configure your system. If you're not willing to do this, then you're better off sticking to known supported hardware, or accepting the rule of an illegal software monopoly over your computing platform. Resistance isn't painless. It has its rewards. If you're going to pioneer Debian GNU/Linux at your workplace, you'll have to balance: - Accepting supplied HW and current levels of support. - Risking the slightly less stable world of testing or unstable releases of Debian. - Learning something about your tools. - Using alternative hardware where necessary. Inflexibility on all four points on your part isn't a problem on ours. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of Gestalt don't you understand? Hollings: bought, paid for, but couldn't deliver the CBDTPA: http://www.politechbot.com/docs/cbdtpa/hollings.s2048.032102.html pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: How stable is SiD ?
Johan Kullstam wrote: Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 03:27:47PM +0200, Joris Lambrecht wrote: Can anyone advise on starting to use SiD as resource for my Debian Workstation ? Doesn't it have to many issues left open, broken dependencies etc. If you have to ask, sid is not stable enough for you. Perhaps his video card isn't supported with the woody shipped xfree86? That's why I went straight for sid last August. (ATI Radeon 8500 needs 4.2.1.) At work I just got some crap corporate box with i845g graphics. I need xfree86 4.3. Please advise. There's some useful posts on installing X 4.3 in the archives in the last couple of weeks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How stable is SiD ?
Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: on Sat, Sep 06, 2003 at 01:23:43PM -0400, Johan Kullstam ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 03:27:47PM +0200, Joris Lambrecht wrote: Can anyone advise on starting to use SiD as resource for my Debian Workstation ? Doesn't it have to many issues left open, broken dependencies etc. If you have to ask, sid is not stable enough for you. Perhaps his video card isn't supported with the woody shipped xfree86? That's why I went straight for sid last August. (ATI Radeon 8500 needs 4.2.1.) At work I just got some crap corporate box with i845g graphics. I need xfree86 4.3. Please advise. 1. Report this problem to your video card vendor. I don't care if you're CTO of IBM or a one-week-temp and Spam-R-Us or Joe's Internet Taco Cafe. Vendors need to know that their customers are using their products with GNU/Linux, and demand XFree86 support. Do this regardless of any subsequent steps you take to resolve your problem. XFree86 supports it since February this year. Unfortunately, debian doesn't have 4.3.0 in its lineup. Woody uses 4.1 which came out in June 2001. XFree86 seems to put out reasonably timely releases. Where do I point these card manufacturers to a time machine vendor so that I can get proper debian support? 2. Consider the option of using a supported card. It's not going to cost much -- last time I tried this trick, it consisted of walking into CompUSA and asking for the lowest-end video card they had (suitable for most office work; who are you kidding about your Gnumeric FPS score), cost was on the order of $25. Submit the receipt for reimbursement, and pass along _this_ request to your internal purchase manager or whitebox vendor. Cannibalizing an existing dead box might get you the card for free. This is what I did. I ordered a cheap-ass card. This is my own money for a machine doled out to me at work. No, I do not have control over what they give me. I am very on the edge even daring to run linux. 3. Go ahead and use 'testing'. I am using sid on my home machine to support the radeon 8500. You're insulated from most of the borkenness of unstable. On the other hand using testing at work and sid at home i've noticed that things break more often in sid, but when broken in testing, they can stay busted in testing for a long time. I am not sure which is better. While the theory gainsays it, I am leaning towards sid being, in practice, more stable. Using 'pinning' and apt preferences, you can include unstable and testing sources, pull from testing by preference, but install selected unstable packages on an as-needed basis. This is what I do. It works most of the time. Note that using pinning to bridge the testing/unstable gap works pretty well (they're relatively close), but bridging stable to either testing or unstable is a real mess. In the latter case, you're trying to bridge 1-2 years of software development, often with large changes in basic foundations. Based on two minutes' hunting through Google and Google Groups, you're going to need XF86 v 4.3, which may not yet be in testing, And neither is it in sid/unstable. but is available via unofficial debs from http://www.apt-get.org http://tinyurl.com/mhvh The general answer is this: GNU/Linux remains disadvantaged by hardware support policies, If by this you mean that GNU/Linux stable cannot support hardware younger than about 3 years old due to a very slow release cycle policy, then yes, I would agree. many of which have been historically shown to be influenced improperly by Microsoft. You can blame MS for a lot, but this one is squarely on debian's head. Yes, I could perhaps lend a hand instead of bitching. However, my complaint is about the attitude behind If you have to ask, sid is not stable enough for you. comment more than it is about the debian X strike force. Free software is a powerful tool for circumventing this situation, but it requires a positive response on your part: telling the vendor that you want support, researching whether and how support is available, and taking necessary steps to configure your system. If you're not willing to do this, then you're better off sticking to known supported hardware, or accepting the rule of an illegal software monopoly over your computing platform. Resistance isn't painless. It has its rewards. I settled on compiling the xfree86 4.3.0 source myself and installing over top of what I had. This seemed to be the easiest way to keep my testing library set. It works for now, but I can't get the video modes I want. (I have also ordered a suitibly obsolete and cheap AGP video card which is supported so this will be taken care of shortly.) Look, when I buy
Re: How stable is SiD ?
on Sat, Sep 06, 2003 at 11:08:07PM -0400, Johan Kullstam ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1. Report this problem to your video card vendor. I don't care if you're CTO of IBM or a one-week-temp and Spam-R-Us or Joe's Internet Taco Cafe. Vendors need to know that their customers are using their products with GNU/Linux, and demand XFree86 support. Do this regardless of any subsequent steps you take to resolve your problem. XFree86 supports it since February this year. Unfortunately, debian doesn't have 4.3.0 in its lineup. Woody uses 4.1 which came out in June 2001. XFree86 seems to put out reasonably timely releases. Where do I point these card manufacturers to a time machine vendor so that I can get proper debian support? One alternative would be having the card support, say, standard xsvga as a fallback position. It doesn't have to provide full accelerated driver performance. It should, however, work, with reasonable refresh and resolution (1024x768 or 1280x1024, 75Hz, 24bpp, or better). 2. Consider the option of using a supported card. It's not going to cost much -- last time I tried this trick, it consisted of walking into CompUSA and asking for the lowest-end video card they had (suitable for most office work; who are you kidding about your Gnumeric FPS score), cost was on the order of $25. Submit the receipt for reimbursement, and pass along _this_ request to your internal purchase manager or whitebox vendor. Cannibalizing an existing dead box might get you the card for free. This is what I did. I ordered a cheap-ass card. This is my own money for a machine doled out to me at work. No, I do not have control over what they give me. I am very on the edge even daring to run linux. Agreement and sympathies. My own solution was to provide my own hardware, period. Given that I contract, slowing myself down by learning the local computing environment is a PITA. Given a laptop or micro PC format, and standards-based systems for networking, email, fileshare, etc., I can carry a modern system with me, configured to my own preferences. This doesn't work in all cases. 3. Go ahead and use 'testing'. I am using sid on my home machine to support the radeon 8500. You're insulated from most of the borkenness of unstable. On the other hand using testing at work and sid at home i've noticed that things break more often in sid, but when broken in testing, they can stay busted in testing for a long time. Which was why I followed this statement with the subsequent comments on pinning, and noted that... but [XF86 v4.3] is available via unofficial debs from http://www.apt-get.org http://tinyurl.com/mhvh The general answer is this: GNU/Linux remains disadvantaged by hardware support policies, If by this you mean that GNU/Linux stable cannot support hardware younger than about 3 years old due to a very slow release cycle policy, then yes, I would agree. No. HW manufacturers are interfering in other ways, including lack of fallback support. many of which have been historically shown to be influenced improperly by Microsoft. You can blame MS for a lot, but this one is squarely on debian's head. We disagree. Yes, I could perhaps lend a hand instead of bitching. However, my complaint is about the attitude behind If you have to ask, sid is not stable enough for you. comment more than it is about the debian X strike force. I'd say that comment's on base. If you want support for bleeding-edge HW, you're going to have to be self-supporting. If you have to ask, you're probably not ready. I didn't say there was a solution, I said there was a tradeoff. What part of this statement do you disagree with? My goal isn't to get everyone and his kid brother's dog on Debian. It's to promote what Debian can do, for people who can use it beneficially, within limits imposed. Look, when I buy my own machine, I do research it to see if it has linux/xfree86 support. The i845g box just came to me at work. It's a large corporation and they just issue these things. I would *never* have chosen that thing myself. See above WRT trade-offs. The word compromise implies a balancing of conflicting needs and goals. Conflict elimination is another department. If you're going to pioneer Debian GNU/Linux at your workplace, you'll have to balance: - Accepting supplied HW and current levels of support. - Risking the slightly less stable world of testing or unstable releases of Debian. - Learning something about your tools. - Using alternative hardware where necessary. You forgot perhaps - Using an alternate linux distribution No, that's outside the scope. Use of Debian was explicitly stated. I was using redhat up to last August, I can always go back. I have been playing with gentoo on a
Re: How stable is SiD ?
On Fri, 2003-09-05 at 14:27, Joris Lambrecht wrote: Hi, Can anyone advise on starting to use SiD as resource for my Debian Workstation ? Doesn't it have to many issues left open, broken dependencies etc. If the dependencies are broken, apt won't load the broken packages. I use sid all the time, and rarely have problems, but if you don't feel competent to deal with possible problems, stay with woody. -- Oliver Elphick[EMAIL PROTECTED] Isle of Wight, UK http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver GPG: 1024D/3E1D0C1C: CA12 09E0 E8D5 8870 5839 932A 614D 4C34 3E1D 0C1C He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. Psalms 103:10-12 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How stable is SiD ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 03:27:47PM +0200, Joris Lambrecht wrote: Can anyone advise on starting to use SiD as resource for my Debian Workstation ? Doesn't it have to many issues left open, broken dependencies etc. If you have to ask, sid is not stable enough for you. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/WJ9YUzgNqloQMwcRAn+ZAKC3HKmbUcSI441dNL7p6vwMsk+a0ACgoTMi pK/tzwSC7Oy3joLNLkfSGrE= =HZr7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How stable is SiD ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 03:27:47PM +0200, Joris Lambrecht wrote: Can anyone advise on starting to use SiD as resource for my Debian Workstation ? Doesn't it have to many issues left open, broken dependencies etc. If you have to ask, sid is not stable enough for you. That's about right. For a workstation I tend to keep everything defaulting to -testing and only install -unstable packages on an as needed/wanted basis. For example, I tend to keep mpeg players very up to date from -unstable because every week there is a new codec out. But I keep the bigger stuff (XFree, OpenOffice, Mozilla) in -testing because I really don't want to have to deal with them being broken. Considering that my wife is reluctantly using Linux for college, I can't afford any bad press. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How stable is SiD ?
On Fri, 2003-09-05 at 12:20, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 03:27:47PM +0200, Joris Lambrecht wrote: [snip] Considering that my wife is reluctantly using Linux for college, I can't afford any bad press. Oh, please! MS products are chock full of bugs, and is wide open to worms and viruses... I'm reluctant enough that we don't use any MS products at home, and laugh while watching sobig and msblaster bounce off our machines. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA Perl is worse than Python because people wanted it worse. Larry Wall, 10/14/1998 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How stable is SiD ?
On Fri, 2003-09-05 at 11:30, Ron Johnson wrote: On Fri, 2003-09-05 at 12:20, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 03:27:47PM +0200, Joris Lambrecht wrote: [snip] Considering that my wife is reluctantly using Linux for college, I can't afford any bad press. Oh, please! MS products are chock full of bugs, and is wide open Those are called features in the MS world ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How stable is SiD ?
on Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 03:27:47PM +0200, Joris Lambrecht ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Hi, Can anyone advise on starting to use SiD as resource for my Debian Workstation ? Doesn't it have to many issues left open, broken dependencies etc. Very. Until it isn't. Rule of thumb: if you have to ask, don't. You _will_ be required to be self-sufficient (or hire a live-in rescue person for when things break). Peace. -- Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of Gestalt don't you understand? We freed Dmitry!Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: How stable is SiD ?
On Fri, 2003-09-05 at 18:58, Nicolas Galler wrote: On Fri, 2003-09-05 at 11:30, Ron Johnson wrote: On Fri, 2003-09-05 at 12:20, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 03:27:47PM +0200, Joris Lambrecht wrote: [snip] Considering that my wife is reluctantly using Linux for college, I can't afford any bad press. Oh, please! MS products are chock full of bugs, and is wide open Those are called features in the MS world ;) VOICE=MONOTONE Must conform, must conform... What's good for Microsoft is good for the World... Be grateful to Billg, and all his blessings will flow down upon us... /VOICE -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA Some former UNSCOM officials are alarmed, however. Terry Taylor, a British senior UNSCOM inspector from 1993 to 1997, says the figure of 95 percent disarmament is complete nonsense because inspectors never learned what 100 percent was. UNSCOM found a great deal and destroyed a great deal, but we knew [Iraq's] work was continuing while we were there, and I'm sure it continues, says Mr. Taylor, now head of the Washington http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0829/p01s03-wosc.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How stable is SiD ?
Ron Johnson wrote: On Fri, 2003-09-05 at 12:20, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 03:27:47PM +0200, Joris Lambrecht wrote: [snip] Considering that my wife is reluctantly using Linux for college, I can't afford any bad press. Oh, please! MS products are chock full of bugs, and is wide open to worms and viruses... I'm reluctant enough that we don't use any MS products at home, and laugh while watching sobig and msblaster bounce off our machines. You and I know that. But she only knows that everyone else except me uses Windows and Office products. And when something goes wrong with anything it must be because I am doing something different from everyone else. It falls into the mantra of must conform. -- Who does not love wine, women, and song, Remains a fool his whole life long. -- Johann Heinrich Voss -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
