Re: Laptop choice?

[Bob]

8< 8< snip 8< 8<
 threadjacks 

On a more general note, is there a laptop with good OS drivers for 
everything, that has a DVI port and SPDIF out (in would be nice but not 
essential) as well as all the normal USB, FireWire, WiFi, lan, etc... ?


Defiantly want OS graphics drivers so I think that restricts me to Intel 
Chipset.


Any suggestions?


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Re: Laptop choice?

[Hans du Plooy]

On Mon, 2006-11-27 at 18:13 -0800, Jeff Goodman wrote:
> > 2.  HP of late has a filthy habit of boobytrapping their notebooks to
> > not take generic components.  My nx6125, for example, will not work with
> > any hard disc other than the 80GB Seagate (with HP firmware) that it
> > came with.  Sure you can put something else in, but it simply disables
> > DMA making it hardly usable.  This leaves you with two problems.  If you
> > run out of space, you can't put something bigger in, and b) if your disc
> > dies after the warranty ran out, you're going to pay through your nose
> > for a new drive.  I can also not replace the wireless min-PCI card.
> > Mine shipped with a broadcom.  At the time, ndiswrapper was quite
> > unstable, so I put an Atheros card in that I scavanged from an AP.
> > Notebook wouln't even post - says something like "Unsupported PCI
> > device, please remove."  I thought, OK, I'll buy one from HP - got an HP
> > branded Intel 2200 card (which was listed as compatible with my
> > notebook) - same story.
> > 
> I have to disagree.  Recently bought a dv2130us for around a thousand 
> bucks, has a Core 2 Duo, 1GB (since updated to 2GB), 14" screen (for 
> portability) and 3.5 hour battery.  Swapped out the harddisk with an old 
> 40GB Hitachi that was laying around, and  effortlessly installed Kubuntu 
> Dapper.  Pretty much everything worked out-of the-box, including 
> wireless, suspend, hibernate, etc.  Frankly, I was floored!

My boss' HP nx9010 is cool with swapping drives too, but mine is not.
You're welcome to look up on the nx6125.  After buying the HP Intel
ipw2200 I phoned HP to complain.  They confirmed that it is not
supported and at the same time they pulled the page that listed it as
compatible (which I had luckily saved when I ordered).

My point is that when you buy an HP you don't know if you're going to
have issues like that.

Incidently, my extra disc is also a Hitaschi 40GB (5400rpm 8mb).  The
notebook picks it up, but it runs so slowly.  I popped in the HP Windows
CD when I got home after work.  By the time I went to bed it was still
busy with the first phase.

My extra hard drive worked perfectly in my old Compaq P-III as now in an
external enclosure.  The Intel card I sold off to a friend who's using
it in his Dell.

Hans


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Re: Laptop choice?

[Jeff Goodman]

Hans du Plooy wrote:

On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 17:32 -0800, Marc Shapiro wrote:

Compaq Presario ($399.98 US)

[snip]

HP ($379.99 US)


Don't buy an HP/Compaq.  Two reasons:

1.  They never perform as good as the hardware suggest.  This has been
my observation over several years dealing with clients who buy nothing
but HP.

2.  HP of late has a filthy habit of boobytrapping their notebooks to
not take generic components.  My nx6125, for example, will not work with
any hard disc other than the 80GB Seagate (with HP firmware) that it
came with.  Sure you can put something else in, but it simply disables
DMA making it hardly usable.  This leaves you with two problems.  If you
run out of space, you can't put something bigger in, and b) if your disc
dies after the warranty ran out, you're going to pay through your nose
for a new drive.  I can also not replace the wireless min-PCI card.
Mine shipped with a broadcom.  At the time, ndiswrapper was quite
unstable, so I put an Atheros card in that I scavanged from an AP.
Notebook wouln't even post - says something like "Unsupported PCI
device, please remove."  I thought, OK, I'll buy one from HP - got an HP
branded Intel 2200 card (which was listed as compatible with my
notebook) - same story.

Hans


I have to disagree.  Recently bought a dv2130us for around a thousand 
bucks, has a Core 2 Duo, 1GB (since updated to 2GB), 14" screen (for 
portability) and 3.5 hour battery.  Swapped out the harddisk with an old 
40GB Hitachi that was laying around, and  effortlessly installed Kubuntu 
Dapper.  Pretty much everything worked out-of the-box, including 
wireless, suspend, hibernate, etc.  Frankly, I was floored!


This is the second HP laptop that I've owned, and one thing that both 
have in common, that I really appreciate, is an easy-to-swap harddisk. 
Couldn't be happier with the dv2130us.


Jeff


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Re: Laptop choice?

[ChadDavis]

Don't buy an HP/Compaq.  Two reasons:

1.  They never perform as good as the hardware suggest.  This has been
my observation over several years dealing with clients who buy nothing
but HP.

2.  HP of late has a filthy habit of boobytrapping their notebooks to
not take generic components.  My nx6125, for example, will not work with
any hard disc other than the 80GB Seagate (with HP firmware) that it
came with.  Sure you can put something else in, but it simply disables
DMA making it hardly usable.  This leaves you with two problems.  If you
run out of space, you can't put something bigger in, and b) if your disc
dies after the warranty ran out, you're going to pay through your nose
for a new drive.  I can also not replace the wireless min-PCI card.
Mine shipped with a broadcom.  At the time, ndiswrapper was quite
unstable, so I put an Atheros card in that I scavanged from an AP.
Notebook wouln't even post - says something like "Unsupported PCI
device, please remove."  I thought, OK, I'll buy one from HP - got an HP
branded Intel 2200 card (which was listed as compatible with my
notebook) - same story.


Hans makes good points about the HP.  However, I recently bought a
nice hp laptop and installed etch without incident.  Looks like, based
upon Hans' insight, that I could have trouble down the road if I want
to upgrade some components.

Here's the main details of my machine.  It was 1300$ but has a very
rad processor, 2GB memory, and a 17 inch wide screen monitor.  The
ethernet card is didn't work with the sarge installer but worked fine
with the etch net-installer.  The graphics card did install but was
suboptimal until I got the beta version of the driver from NVIDIA,
which was a piece of cake to install.  So far, the machine appears to
be blazing fast and great to look at ( good monitor ).  However, I am
concerned about the issues that Hans raised.

HP dv9000t

Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Duo processor T7200 (2.0 GHz)
256MB NVIDIA(R) GeForce(R) Go 7600
Intel(R) PRO/Wireless 3945ABG Network Connection
intel pro 1000 ethernet card


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Re: Laptop choice?

[Stefan Monnier]

>Intel Celeron M 420

I'd recommend against any Celeron CPU.  It's slow and not energy efficient.
A Turion64 ML- is OK but an Turion64 MT- is more
energy efficient, so check the details.

W.r.t GNU/Linux support I've come to the conclusion that it's a question of
luck more than anything else.  I'm pretty sure you'll be able to get Debian
running just fine, with full support for the main elements, no matter which
laptop you choose.


Stefan


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Re: Laptop choice?

[Hans du Plooy]

On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 17:32 -0800, Marc Shapiro wrote:
> Compaq Presario ($399.98 US)
[snip]
> HP ($379.99 US)

Don't buy an HP/Compaq.  Two reasons:

1.  They never perform as good as the hardware suggest.  This has been
my observation over several years dealing with clients who buy nothing
but HP.

2.  HP of late has a filthy habit of boobytrapping their notebooks to
not take generic components.  My nx6125, for example, will not work with
any hard disc other than the 80GB Seagate (with HP firmware) that it
came with.  Sure you can put something else in, but it simply disables
DMA making it hardly usable.  This leaves you with two problems.  If you
run out of space, you can't put something bigger in, and b) if your disc
dies after the warranty ran out, you're going to pay through your nose
for a new drive.  I can also not replace the wireless min-PCI card.
Mine shipped with a broadcom.  At the time, ndiswrapper was quite
unstable, so I put an Atheros card in that I scavanged from an AP.
Notebook wouln't even post - says something like "Unsupported PCI
device, please remove."  I thought, OK, I'll buy one from HP - got an HP
branded Intel 2200 card (which was listed as compatible with my
notebook) - same story.

Hans


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Re: Laptop choice?

[Johannes Wiedersich]

Baz wrote:
> So, you have Etch running?

Yes. More information can be found here:
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=396411

Installation went very smooth and took about an hour, including more
than 4 GB worth of packages downloaded :-)

Johannes


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Re: Laptop choice?

[Johannes Wiedersich]

Nick Boyce wrote:
> My 2p on that: I've used two Thinkpads at work (but not with Linux), a
> T20 and a T21.  Good points: very physically sturdy (a Dell Latitude
> seems flimsy by comparison), and have a nice security feature (or scary
> feature depending on your point of view) in that if you set a BIOS
> password then it's held in non-volatile RAM, so can't be overridden by
> removing the CMOS battery.  Bad point: the hard drives made a nasty
> whining noise - so alarming that the IBM website even has a sample of it
> for you to listen to so you can tell it's "normal" :)
> 
> These were quite elderly models - I'd love to hear how modern Thinkpads
> compare on these points.

Mine is about the most quiet laptop of anyone I know. I still haven't
figured out, however, why the hard drive (on heavy duty) is even quieter
on linux as on that other OS that IBM had installed for me.

I had a failing multiburner that has been replaced in warranty;
currently it's been up and used for more than 7000 h (I'm not sure if
these include the odd M$ hour, but these wouldn't make a difference).

Yours,
Thinkpad R51


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Re: Laptop choice?

[Nick Boyce]

Baz wrote:

> Thinkpad - it's the standard by which all others are measured...

My 2p on that: I've used two Thinkpads at work (but not with Linux), a
T20 and a T21.  Good points: very physically sturdy (a Dell Latitude
seems flimsy by comparison), and have a nice security feature (or scary
feature depending on your point of view) in that if you set a BIOS
password then it's held in non-volatile RAM, so can't be overridden by
removing the CMOS battery.  Bad point: the hard drives made a nasty
whining noise - so alarming that the IBM website even has a sample of it
for you to listen to so you can tell it's "normal" :)

These were quite elderly models - I'd love to hear how modern Thinkpads
compare on these points.

Cheers
Nick Boyce


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Re: Laptop choice?

[Marc Shapiro]

Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:


Marc Shapiro wrote:

For those who have already finished their turkey, or reside outside 
the US and don't celebrate Thanksgiving, or for whatever reason are 
actually reading debian-user today...


I finally have some spare cash and so am looking to replace my aged 
IBM Thinkpad 390.  All the sale flyers came in today's paper for 
sales tomorrow and Saturday.  I need some advice on which laptop to 
get.  I have looked around on Google, at linuxlaptops.com and such.  
A lot of what I see is several years old and I could use some current 
tips from people running linux on current machines.


I expect I will be doing some programming, some word-processing, a 
little image manipulation, possibly a small amount of sound file 
manipulation.  I might also move my website maintenance from the 
desktop to the laptop.  I am not a gamer!  This is probably not going 
to be a "heavy load" machine, but I want something that will work 
well for me and not give me any headaches.  I have enough of those, 
already.


These are what I am currently looking at:

Toshiba Satellite ($299.99 US)
   Intel Celeron M 420
   512 MB DDR2 RAM
   80 GB HD
   CD-RW/DVD
   802.11 a/b/g



Where do you get these prices? I checked Newegg and for a TOSHIBA 
Satellite A105-S2201 they want $690.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16834114271


These were special "Day after Thanksgiving" sales.  I misplaced the 
sales flyers, but I believe that the Toshiba was at Office epot and the 
HP was at Best Buy.  I still have the Staples add for the Compaq.


As good as the prices were, quantities are very limited and everyone is 
out shopping today. I decided that it was not worth getting up and out 
of the house before dark to get in line before the stores opened to try 
for one of these.  I've decided that Ill just hang in there for another 
few months of actual employment to get the finances in better order and 
then, maybe, I can look at Thinkpads.


--
Marc Shapiro

No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.
What?! Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here.
Boom. Sooner or later ... boom!

- Susan Ivanova: B5 - Grail


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Re: Laptop choice?

[Johannes Wiedersich]

Sebastian,

Baz wrote:
> Which model was it?  If it's any relief, my model is three months old and
> I'm having the some of the same problems.  

Sorry, I should have written that more clearly. The other laptop was NOT
a Thinkpad. It was a Transtec laptop (I don't recall the model, by now
at least all important things work).

> Don't the developers know?  Do
> they even care?  or are they just elitists?

Which developers? The salespeople of the other brand should know how to
configure linux, but they charge an extra fee for it and don't post that
kind of information. The effort is mainly to find out what hardware and
how it is supported. I didn't want to give the impression that it is any
more difficult to install debian vs suse. I'm quite sure it involves the
same kind of effort.

As far as the debian developers are concerned: They care!

My message is simple: search for information on your particular laptop
*before* you buy it. Usually stuff published by linux users will stay
there for a while and it will make things more easy for you. If there is
no/little information already available, be prepared to invest an
unpredictable amount of effort. Be prepared that many things won't work
out of the box. Be prepared that some things might not work (yet).

YMMV,
Johannes


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Re: Laptop choice?

[Baz]

Johannes -

Which model was it?  If it's any relief, my model is three months old and
I'm having the some of the same problems.  Don't the developers know?  Do
they even care?  or are they just elitists?

- Sebastian

Re: Laptop choice?

[Hugo Vanwoerkom]

Marc Shapiro wrote:
For those who have already finished their turkey, or reside outside the 
US and don't celebrate Thanksgiving, or for whatever reason are actually 
reading debian-user today...


I finally have some spare cash and so am looking to replace my aged IBM 
Thinkpad 390.  All the sale flyers came in today's paper for sales 
tomorrow and Saturday.  I need some advice on which laptop to get.  I 
have looked around on Google, at linuxlaptops.com and such.  A lot of 
what I see is several years old and I could use some current tips from 
people running linux on current machines.


I expect I will be doing some programming, some word-processing, a 
little image manipulation, possibly a small amount of sound file 
manipulation.  I might also move my website maintenance from the desktop 
to the laptop.  I am not a gamer!  This is probably not going to be a 
"heavy load" machine, but I want something that will work well for me 
and not give me any headaches.  I have enough of those, already.


These are what I am currently looking at:

Toshiba Satellite ($299.99 US)
   Intel Celeron M 420
   512 MB DDR2 RAM
   80 GB HD
   CD-RW/DVD
   802.11 a/b/g


Where do you get these prices? I checked Newegg and for a TOSHIBA 
Satellite A105-S2201 they want $690.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16834114271

Hugo



Compaq Presario ($399.98 US)
   AMD Turion64
   512 MB RAM
   60 GB HD
   CD-RW/DVD
   802.11 b/g

HP ($379.99 US)
   Intel Core Solo T1350
   512 MB DDR2 RAM
   80 GB HD
   DVD-RW
   Centrino Mobile Technology

Since I just got a job (hence the spare cash) using M$ I will be leaving 
that other OS on the box and installing Debian as a dual boot. I would 
appreciate any tips on what does, or does not work.  Getting wireless to 
work, etc.





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Re: Laptop choice?

[Johannes Wiedersich]

Marc Shapiro wrote:
> Baz wrote:
> 
>> Thinkpad - it's the standard by which all others are measured...
> 
> Yes, but I still can't afford to pony up the price of a new Thinkpad.

I adviced my girlfriend to buy a used thinkpad. It's not a current
model, but was good value for money. She's never had anything to
complain about.

You should look at thinkwiki.org for that excellent documentation on
thinkpads. I guess that almost any laptop that's not a thinkpad will
have less documentation and more risk of what is supported and what not.

YMMV, but also try to consider the amount of time/effort it might take
to get it working. A collegue bought a laptop that is also sold with
suse preinstalled. Installing debian etch was possible, but getting
graphics, sata, etc, to work took *a lot of effort* (and doesn't work
with stable sarge).

YMMV, HTH,
Johannes


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Re: Laptop choice?

[Baz]

Marc -

Don't be so sure.  I bought mine - regular $1400 for $1000 back in August.
Check Lenovo's clearance section.  They were trying - so I read - to empty
the warehouses for the new models.  Also, it was delivered one day late -
and, I got them to knock $50.00 more off.

- Sebastian

On 11/23/06, Marc Shapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Baz wrote:

> Thinkpad - it's the standard by which all others are measured...

Yes, but I still can't afford to pony up the price of a new Thinkpad.

--
Marc Shapiro

No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.
What?! Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here.
Boom. Sooner or later ... boom!

- Susan Ivanova: B5 - Grail


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--
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- Joy Division

Re: Laptop choice?

[Marc Shapiro]

Baz wrote:


Thinkpad - it's the standard by which all others are measured...


Yes, but I still can't afford to pony up the price of a new Thinkpad.

--
Marc Shapiro

No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.
What?! Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here.
Boom. Sooner or later ... boom!

- Susan Ivanova: B5 - Grail


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Re: Laptop choice?

[Baz]

Thinkpad - it's the standard by which all others are measured...

On 11/23/06, John L Fjellstad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Can't give you specific advice on the laptops you showed, but I would
check http://www.linux-laptop.net/ and see if those models are there and
how much problems people have setting up their laptops.

--
John L. Fjellstad
web: http://www.fjellstad.org/  Quis custodiet ipsos custodes


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--
"...heart and soulone will burn."
- Joy Division

Re: Laptop choice?

[John L Fjellstad]

Can't give you specific advice on the laptops you showed, but I would
check http://www.linux-laptop.net/ and see if those models are there and
how much problems people have setting up their laptops.

-- 
John L. Fjellstad
web: http://www.fjellstad.org/  Quis custodiet ipsos custodes


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Re: Laptop choice?

[Tyler MacDonald]

Marc Shapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Toshiba Satellite ($299.99 US)
>Intel Celeron M 420
>512 MB DDR2 RAM
>80 GB HD
>CD-RW/DVD
>802.11 a/b/g

I have one of these. It uses the ipw2100 wifi card internally. I got
fed up with it so I now use a PCMCIA D-Link AirPlus AG (madwifi atheros
driver) instead. I also needed to set some custom module options to make the
IRDA port work, but once I got over those two hurdles, it's a very nice
laptop and everything works nicely. I especially like that there are USB
ports on two sides of the laptop and when you cpufreq it down to 600MHz it's
dead silent and the battery lasts hours even with the wifi card attached.

- Tyler


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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[roberto]

On 9/10/05, Tim Jordan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I use a Dell Latitude D600.  Works awesome!
> Tim
>
i also currently hold D600, but i would like to upgrade to latest
stable kernel-source package; which one are you using?
does it correctly manage your hardware?

i did not find any 2.6.x (x>8) package in debian packages search, where is it?
bye

--
roberto
GNU/Linux, debian sarge
kernel 2.6.8-2-386

Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Dr. Steven A. Sola]

I'm thinking of getting an asus z71v notebook.
has anyone had any experience with this  or similar models?
TIA
   lao

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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[anoop aryal]

On Saturday 10 September 2005 05:41 am, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
> Brian Kimball wrote:
> > Antonio Rodriguez wrote:
> >>I am planning to buy a laptop for my self in the near future for
> >>travels, stinks not having with you a debian system. Any good
> >>recommendations by any chance?
> >
> > A good recommendation that I don't see very often is to check which
> > machines linux laptop vendors choose to use.  Obviously they are going
> > to pick machines that are as compatible as possible with linux.  See
> >
> > http://www.emperorlinux.com/
>
> Good idea. Just 3: IBM, Dell, Sony.

i've always used a toshiba. the one i have currently is a desktop replacement. 
satellite pro 6100. therefore probably not ideal for what the OP wanted it 
for - travel. but otherwise, everything works out of the box. supports dual 
display (nvidia card). has an *excellent* display (1400x1050 - an awkward 
ratio but it works). and they have support website for linux.

anoop.


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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Hugo Vanwoerkom]

Brian Kimball wrote:

Antonio Rodriguez wrote:


I am planning to buy a laptop for my self in the near future for
travels, stinks not having with you a debian system. Any good
recommendations by any chance?



A good recommendation that I don't see very often is to check which 
machines linux laptop vendors choose to use.  Obviously they are going 
to pick machines that are as compatible as possible with linux.  See


http://www.emperorlinux.com/



Good idea. Just 3: IBM, Dell, Sony.


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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Tim Jordan]

Joan Tur wrote:


Es Divendres, 9 de Setembre de 2005 13:55, en Florian Dorpmueller va escriure:
| With http://tuxmobile.org and http://www.linux-laptop.net/ you can make
| your mind up.
It's http://tuxmobil.org (without the "e")  ;)

 


I use a Dell Latitude D600.  Works awesome!
Tim


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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Brian Kimball]

Antonio Rodriguez wrote:
> I am planning to buy a laptop for my self in the near future for
> travels, stinks not having with you a debian system. Any good
> recommendations by any chance?

A good recommendation that I don't see very often is to check which 
machines linux laptop vendors choose to use.  Obviously they are going 
to pick machines that are as compatible as possible with linux.  See

http://www.emperorlinux.com/

As an example.

 Brian


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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Joan Tur]

Es Divendres, 9 de Setembre de 2005 13:55, en Florian Dorpmueller va escriure:
| With http://tuxmobile.org and http://www.linux-laptop.net/ you can make
| your mind up.
It's http://tuxmobil.org (without the "e")  ;)

-- 
Joan Tur (aka Quini), Eivissa-Spain
Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Yahoo & AIM: quini2k
www.ClubIbosim.org
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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Greg Madden]

On Friday 09 September 2005 07:39 am, Josh Battles wrote:
> antgel said:
> > Josh Battles wrote:
> >> I've got to agree with the others here that the IBM ThinkPad is a
> >> wonderful laptop to run Debian on.  I installed Ubuntu on my T42
> >> and it detected everything right out of the box and configured it
> >> all correctly.  The only thing I had to do was manually setup my
> >> wifi card and the scroll button for the trackpoint device.
> >
> > Ubuntu Is Not Debian.
>
> Yes it is true that Ubuntu is not Debian, however since it is Debian
> based I felt that this was a relevant response.  Perhaps I should
> have mentioned that I installed Sarge on it before I installed
> Ubuntu, and had to do exactly the same amount of post-install
> configuration with both distros.

I do think there is enough difference between Debian & Ubuntu, 
technically, that they need to have separate support, which each does.
Ubuntu is diverging from Debian at, to me , a fast pace, it just used 
the .deb package system. It wouldn't suprise me if they stoped 
supporting dselect ;-)
-- 
Greg Madden


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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Clive Menzies]

On (09/09/05 17:44), Jonathan Kaye wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Antonio Rodriguez wrote:
> 
> > I am planning to buy a laptop for my self in the near future for
> > travels, stinks not having with you a debian system. Any good
> > recommendations by any chance?
> Hi Antonio,
> My girlfriend just installed debian etch in her Acer Aspire 3503. We tested
> it with knoppix first and everything worked, then used Sarge netinst cd to
> put in Debian and then immediately changed the sources.list from stable to
> testing and updated/upgraded. It's been working flawlessly ever since:
> network, sound, montor, cd/dvd/burning. No problems at all and the laptop
> came to 800?.
> Personally, I've always enjoyed Acer's laptops, even when they're disguised
> as IBM Thinkpads.
> 
I have to agree. We've got a 2003WLMi and a 1524WLMi and they both work
a treat; I've not bothered configuring wireless though.

Regards

Clive

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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Jonathan Kaye]

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Hash: SHA1

Antonio Rodriguez wrote:

> I am planning to buy a laptop for my self in the near future for
> travels, stinks not having with you a debian system. Any good
> recommendations by any chance?
Hi Antonio,
My girlfriend just installed debian etch in her Acer Aspire 3503. We tested
it with knoppix first and everything worked, then used Sarge netinst cd to
put in Debian and then immediately changed the sources.list from stable to
testing and updated/upgraded. It's been working flawlessly ever since:
network, sound, montor, cd/dvd/burning. No problems at all and the laptop
came to 800?.
Personally, I've always enjoyed Acer's laptops, even when they're disguised
as IBM Thinkpads.
Cheers,
Jonathan
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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Josh Battles]

antgel said:
> Josh Battles wrote:
>> I've got to agree with the others here that the IBM ThinkPad is a wonderful
>> laptop to run Debian on.  I installed Ubuntu on my T42 and it detected
>> everything right out of the box and configured it all correctly.  The only
>> thing I had to do was manually setup my wifi card and the scroll button for
>> the trackpoint device.
>
> Ubuntu Is Not Debian.

Yes it is true that Ubuntu is not Debian, however since it is Debian based I
felt that this was a relevant response.  Perhaps I should have mentioned that
I installed Sarge on it before I installed Ubuntu, and had to do exactly the
same amount of post-install configuration with both distros.

-- 
- Josh
www.omg-stfu.com


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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Jon Dowland]

On Fri, Sep 09, 2005 at 03:07:56PM +0100, antgel wrote:
> > I've got to agree with the others here that the IBM ThinkPad is a
> > wonderful laptop to run Debian on.  I installed Ubuntu on my T42 and
> > it detected everything right out of the box and configured it all
> > correctly.  The only thing I had to do was manually setup my wifi
> > card and the scroll button for the trackpoint device.
> 
> Ubuntu Is Not Debian.

Well, it's close enough for this chap's reply to be useful.

-- 
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http://jon.dowland.name/


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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Craig M. Houck]

I have put debian on two think pads a T20 and a new one. I also put it on a
Dell 6000? Sound isn't working on the 6000, but I think it is a hardware
problem.


>

RbtBotL
Craig - ><>

 oBU SysAdmin
/|\  607 777 6827 
 ^  Tot Ziens
   



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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Josh Battles]

Antonio Rodriguez said:
> I am planning to buy a laptop for my self in the near future for
> travels, stinks not having with you a debian system. Any good
> recommendations by any chance?

I've got to agree with the others here that the IBM ThinkPad is a wonderful
laptop to run Debian on.  I installed Ubuntu on my T42 and it detected
everything right out of the box and configured it all correctly.  The only
thing I had to do was manually setup my wifi card and the scroll button for
the trackpoint device.

-- 
- Josh
www.omg-stfu.com


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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Olive]

Antonio Rodriguez wrote:

I am planning to buy a laptop for my self in the near future for
travels, stinks not having with you a debian system. Any good
recommendations by any chance?




Toshiba has a website where it documents the compatibility of their 
computer with linux. They document also what hardware are present on the 
system which enable you to investigate further.


Howhever, Toshiba tends to be more expensive that the others and don't 
expect to have a laptop from theirs without WindowsXP preinstalled. So I 
don't say it is a perfect choice, but I think that they have taken a 
nice initiative.


http://newsletter.toshiba-tro.de/main/

Olive


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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Jon Dowland]

On Fri, Sep 09, 2005 at 11:55:14AM +, Florian Dorpmueller wrote:
> A fairly good ML is available f?r Thinkpads: 
> http://mailman.linux-thinkpad.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-thinkpad

Yes, and a good wiki too: http://thinkwiki.org/

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Re: Laptop choice to run debian

[Jon Dowland]

On Fri, Sep 09, 2005 at 07:11:02AM -0400, Antonio Rodriguez wrote:
> I am planning to buy a laptop for my self in the near future for
> travels, stinks not having with you a debian system. Any good
> recommendations by any chance?

Quick answer: IBM Thinkpad X40 

Longer answer: check the debian-laptop archives for discussion of
problems etc. on various laptop models. You may also find
 useful.

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http://jon.dowland.name/


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RE: Laptop choice to run debian

[Florian Dorpmueller]

I am planning to buy a laptop for my self in the near future for
travels, stinks not having with you a debian system. Any good
recommendations by any chance?


With http://tuxmobile.org and http://www.linux-laptop.net/ you can make your 
mind up.


A fairly good ML is available für Thinkpads: 
http://mailman.linux-thinkpad.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-thinkpad


Hope this helps,
Flori



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Re: Laptop choice, first boot issues

[Victor Munoz]

Thanks to all for the very useful comments. I feel now much better informed. 

Regards,

Victor



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Re: Laptop choice, first boot issues

[Raphaël Berbain]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>> AFAIK, ntfs partitions can be resized.  Maybe not all partition
>> editors can do it, but I think Knoppix's can.  Ubuntu can't right now,
>> be it is on the roadmap.
>
> It's safest to use native tools to repartition.

Well, not in my experience.  I used to think that way, but Windows
partitioning tools screwed my disks too many times to my taste.  YMMV.

> Borrow a PartitionMagic CD, if you can.  I have no experience with
> cfdisk or QTParted making partitions for Windows.  In any event,
> make TWO partitions: the first for NTFS at whatever size you want
> for Windows.  (9GB will hold basic stuff plus one game.)

Two data points :  My home windows machine is OS plus basic tools, but
nothing big (no Office suite, no Visual Studio).  It tops at 4.5 GB.
My work machine has Office, Visual Studio, and a couple of other
things.  It uses 9.8 GB.

> The second can be very small (~300 MB), and is insurance in case you
> ever need to reinstall Windows.

So, I just had a look at the default partitionning: /dev/hda1 is 55GB
FAT32 -> NTFS, /dev/hda2 is 4.6GB FAT32 flagged bootable.  Is a 300MB
partition enough ?  I have no idea how IBM's recovery system uses it.
Also, does anybody know why does IBM ships a FAT32 fs just to convert
it to NTFS first thing when the machine comes to life - as opposed to
shipping NTFS directly ?

> Simpler for sure: you don't have to think about all this.  But if you
> want to use dial-up when you travel with a strange new provider (like
> Roadrunner's, not to mention Europe), or play Windows-world games, or
> get IBM automatic updates, or various other things, dual boot is
> relatively painless.  GRUB rules!

As a side note:  Is Europe much worse about strange ISP setups ?  This
is an honest question; I personally never saw much difference between
EU/US regarding weird network setups.  I wonder what makes you say
this.

As for dial-up, the modem is reported to work with resp. FC3, SuSE9.1
and Sarge:

http://pmw.org/~gardnerj/Thinkpad/Install.html#Modem
http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/22-IBM-Thinkpad-T42p.html
http://norman.walsh.name/2004/09/20/newLaptop

>> > Any horror stories out there?
>
> One horror story: if you install Debian starting on the second
> partition, then someday your XP system will lock up so that you have
> to reinstall.  Not only will the %^$&[EMAIL PROTECTED] hidden recovery write 
> over
> the MBR on the first partition, but it will put junk on that second
> partition so that you have to reinstall Debian!

Good to know.  Thanks for your valuable input.


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Re: Laptop choice, first boot issues

[j64669]

I'll just add a few comments based on my experience with an A31
ThinkPad:

On (24/11/04 14:42), Raphaël Berbain wrote:
> Victor Munoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Currently I'm considering R50, T41, T42 models, but I'm open to suggestions!
> ...
> > I've read that one has to be very careful when first booting,
> > because Windows XP converts the file system from VFAT to
> > NTFS.
> 
> It does.  Careful, as in, I guess pulling the plug during the
> conversion might screw up things.  Or as in, insert the install CD
> soon enough so you don't boot XP at all - It all depends on what you
> want to achieve.

The machine arrives with two partitions: one big one and a small hidden
partition at the end where the NTFS installer and recovery hide.  When
you first boot it, it will convert the first partition to NTFS.
 
> > 1. If I naively do a normal boot, then filesystem conversion will take
> > place, and I will not be able to (easily) resize partitions to make room for
> > Linux later?
> 
> AFAIK, ntfs partitions can be resized.  Maybe not all partition
> editors can do it, but I think Knoppix's can.  Ubuntu can't right now,
> be it is on the roadmap.

It's safest to use native tools to repartition.  Borrow a
PartitionMagic CD, if you can.  I have no experience with cfdisk or
QTParted making partitions for Windows.  In any event, make TWO
partitions: the first for NTFS at whatever size you want for Windows.
(9GB will hold basic stuff plus one game.)  The second can be very
small (~300 MB), and is insurance in case you ever need to reinstall
Windows.

> > Or the only problem with NTFS is that they're read-only?
> 
> Linux's NTFS support is read-only (or read-write, if you are prepared
> to jumps through hoops).  General piece of advice for dual-boot
> linux/windows machines:  keep a VFAT partition somewhere.
> 
> > 2. If I keep XP, then I also have to keep the "recovery" partition. Right?
> 
> If you want to be able to "recover", I guess it's necessary.
> Otherwise, just wipe out the thing.

Ask IBM for a recovery CD within 30 days of purchase, and it is free.
If you ever use it, it will create FAT32 (not NTFS) on the first
partition, and a small recovery system on the second partition.
(That's why you create two partitions, not one, in the beginning.)
THEN you can wipe out the original recovery partition at the end of
the hard drive.

> > 3. If I keep XP, what would be a suitable partition size for it? I will not
> > really use it, just a backup in case I need to know about some hardware,
> > until I'm sure sid is working properly with all hardware.
> 
> In my experience, 2/3 Go is about the least viable minimum size for XP
> these days.

You might want a little more, depending on the size of your drive and
your use for Windows.  See above.

> > 4. A simpler alternative would be to boot first time with Knoppix, which
> > seems to do a very good job detecting hardware. Learn all I have to learn
> > with Knoppix, and then delete all partitions and start with a pure Debian
> > system.
> 
> If anything, that should be simpler than going the dual-boot road.

Simpler for sure: you don't have to think about all this.  But if you
want to use dial-up when you travel with a strange new provider (like
Roadrunner's, not to mention Europe), or play Windows-world games, or
get IBM automatic updates, or various other things, dual boot is
relatively painless.  GRUB rules!

> > Any horror stories out there?

One horror story: if you install Debian starting on the second
partition, then someday your XP system will lock up so that you have
to reinstall.  Not only will the %^$&[EMAIL PROTECTED] hidden recovery write 
over
the MBR on the first partition, but it will put junk on that second
partition so that you have to reinstall Debian!

> Have a look at http://modular.fas.harvard.edu/t42/ (linked from
> http://www.linux-on-laptops.com) to get more info.
> 
> > 5. This recovery partition, is of use only to Windows? The "delete all
> > partitions" part above is safe if I intend to have Debian only?
> 
> Definitively yes.

Yup.


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Re: Laptop choice, first boot issues

[Raphaël Berbain]

Victor Munoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Currently I'm considering R50, T41, T42 models, but I'm open to suggestions!

I had the opportunity to play with a T42p just yesterday.  h/w-wise, I
am impressed.  I still have the machine available for some time, so if
there are specific points worrying you, I can play with it a bit more
- e.g. lspci output, default partitions layout, stuff like that.

> It will probably not be possible to buy a laptop without XP installed.

In the package I got, there was a paper stating that if I didn't want
to use some of the pre-installed software, I could write to IBM and
get a refund.  It wasn't clear if the offer applied to the
pre-installed OS or only to the pre-installed extra s/w.  Maybe this
is a French specific disposition.  Also, maybe it is theorically
possible but practically undoable.

> I've read that one has to be very careful when first booting,
> because Windows XP converts the file system from VFAT to
> NTFS.

It does.  Careful, as in, I guess pulling the plug during the
conversion might screw up things.  Or as in, insert the install CD
soon enough so you don't boot XP at all - It all depends on what you
want to achieve.

> 1. If I naively do a normal boot, then filesystem conversion will take
> place, and I will not be able to (easily) resize partitions to make room for
> Linux later?

AFAIK, ntfs partitions can be resized.  Maybe not all partition
editors can do it, but I think Knoppix's can.  Ubuntu can't right now,
be it is on the roadmap.

> Or the only problem with NTFS is that they're read-only?

Linux's NTFS support is read-only (or read-write, if you are prepared
to jumps through hoops).  General piece of advice for dual-boot
linux/windows machines:  keep a VFAT partition somewhere.

> 2. If I keep XP, then I also have to keep the "recovery" partition. Right?

If you want to be able to "recover", I guess it's necessary.
Otherwise, just wipe out the thing.

> 3. If I keep XP, what would be a suitable partition size for it? I will not
> really use it, just a backup in case I need to know about some hardware,
> until I'm sure sid is working properly with all hardware.

In my experience, 2/3 Go is about the least viable minimum size for XP
these days.

> 4. A simpler alternative would be to boot first time with Knoppix, which
> seems to do a very good job detecting hardware. Learn all I have to learn
> with Knoppix, and then delete all partitions and start with a pure Debian
> system.

If anything, that should be simpler than going the dual-boot road.

> Any horror stories out there?

Have a look at http://modular.fas.harvard.edu/t42/ (linked from
http://www.linux-on-laptops.com) to get more info.

> 5. This recovery partition, is of use only to Windows? The "delete all
> partitions" part above is safe if I intend to have Debian only?

Definitively yes.


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Re: Laptop choice, first boot issues

[Anthony Campbell]

On 24 Nov 2004, Victor Munoz wrote:
> 
> Hello. I'm thinking of buying a new laptop. I don't know much about the
> subject (I've only had one old laptop, which I bought from a friend, and he
> had already installed sid). From what I've learned googling, IBM Thinkpads
> seem to be one of the best options. I live in Japan, and Japanese brands are
> cheaper, but IBM looks like a safer bet. 
> 
> Currently I'm considering R50, T41, T42 models, but I'm open to suggestions!
> 
> It will probably not be possible to buy a laptop without XP installed. I've
> read that one has to be very careful when first booting, because Windows XP
> converts the file system from VFAT to NTFS. There's also the issue of the
> special "recovery" partition somewhere in the hard disk. And there's the
> issue of hardware detection. 
> 
> As I still don't have the big picture, my questions:
> 
> 1. If I naively do a normal boot, then filesystem conversion will take
> place, and I will not be able to (easily) resize partitions to make room for
> Linux later? Or the only problem with NTFS is that they're read-only?
>
> 2. If I keep XP, then I also have to keep the "recovery" partition. Right?
>
> 3. If I keep XP, what would be a suitable partition size for it? I will not
> really use it, just a backup in case I need to know about some hardware,
> until I'm sure sid is working properly with all hardware.
> 
> 4. A simpler alternative would be to boot first time with Knoppix, which
> seems to do a very good job detecting hardware. Learn all I have to learn
> with Knoppix, and then delete all partitions and start with a pure Debian
> system. Any horror stories out there?
> 
> 5. This recovery partition, is of use only to Windows? The "delete all
> partitions" part above is safe if I intend to have Debian only?
> 
>   Sorry for all the "if" questions, but I'm trying to get some advice and
> information beforehand.
> 
> 

Useful link: http://jriddell.org/thinkpad-r40e.html which describes
installing Linux on a Thinkpad R40e using Knoppix.

I just installed Sid on a new Thinkpad R40e, using the new Debian
installer. I didn't think I'd ever want to use Windows so I wiped the
whole disk. Using the installer it booted easily with the 2.6 kernel and
noacpi. After that everything was recognized automatically, including
sound and the wireless PCMCIA card. The only slight hiccup was that I
needed to change /etc/network/interfaces to point to eth1 instead of
wireless, but that may have been due to my answering a question wrongly
during the installation. After that I could connect to the internet and
run apt-get to install whatever I needed.

I haven't even needed to recompile my kernel. I downloaded the  2.6.9
kernel package and grub picked that up automatically, so now I can boot
to whichever kernel I want via a menu.

The whole thing could hardly have been easier. I'm sure that if I wanted
XP I could have left it in place without problems.

Anthony

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Re: Laptop choice, first boot issues

[Victor Munoz]

> After you get your thinkpad call and ask for the rescue CD's.  It will 
> be free.  It won't be exactly the same as what is on the restore 

 Thanks for the tip.

> license.  Create a VFAT or M$ FAT to share.  Read the grub manual on the 
> knoppix CD, great idea if you are new to linux.  

Not the case really, but new to the "install linux on new laptop" world.


> to be developed.  But it doesn't sound like you plan to use XP long.

  That's right. Only in case I need information XP could have about hardware
which I cannot get through Knoppix, for instance. But I would try to get rid
of it as soon as possible. 

Victor



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Re: Laptop choice, first boot issues

[Michael Z Daryabeygi]

Victor,
You are well prepared for your linux thinkpad journey.
I have a T41 with dual boot debian.
Absolutely get a thinkpad.  The T series are really slim.  Thinkpads are 
top rated for Linux installation.
After you get your thinkpad call and ask for the rescue CD's.  It will 
be free.  It won't be exactly the same as what is on the restore 
partition, but you will be able to say you have an installable version 
of XP that you payed for.  Yes XP converts the file system to NTFS.  Yes 
it will be read only.  Cut it to 14gig, or even 10.  If someone says 
parted will shrink it, it will. I used Acronis which you must pay for a 
license.  Create a VFAT or M$ FAT to share.  Read the grub manual on the 
knoppix CD, great idea if you are new to linux.  But don't hesitate to 
get it installed for real.
You do not need the hidden restore partition, but it only takes up about 
3 gigs tho it looks like more, then again it takes up one of your 4 
primary partitions.
There is a solution to writing on NTFS, but I have heard it is no longer 
supported.  I don't know if that is true and that it is not continuing 
to be developed.  But it doesn't sound like you plan to use XP long.

Victor Munoz wrote:
Hello. I'm thinking of buying a new laptop. I don't know much about the
subject (I've only had one old laptop, which I bought from a friend, and he
had already installed sid). From what I've learned googling, IBM Thinkpads
seem to be one of the best options. I live in Japan, and Japanese brands are
cheaper, but IBM looks like a safer bet. 

Currently I'm considering R50, T41, T42 models, but I'm open to suggestions!
It will probably not be possible to buy a laptop without XP installed. I've
read that one has to be very careful when first booting, because Windows XP
converts the file system from VFAT to NTFS. There's also the issue of the
special "recovery" partition somewhere in the hard disk. And there's the
issue of hardware detection. 

As I still don't have the big picture, my questions:
1. If I naively do a normal boot, then filesystem conversion will take
place, and I will not be able to (easily) resize partitions to make room for
Linux later? Or the only problem with NTFS is that they're read-only?
  
2. If I keep XP, then I also have to keep the "recovery" partition. Right?
  
3. If I keep XP, what would be a suitable partition size for it? I will not
really use it, just a backup in case I need to know about some hardware,
until I'm sure sid is working properly with all hardware.

4. A simpler alternative would be to boot first time with Knoppix, which
seems to do a very good job detecting hardware. Learn all I have to learn
with Knoppix, and then delete all partitions and start with a pure Debian
system. Any horror stories out there?
5. This recovery partition, is of use only to Windows? The "delete all
partitions" part above is safe if I intend to have Debian only?
 Sorry for all the "if" questions, but I'm trying to get some advice and
information beforehand.
Regards,
Victor

 


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Re: Laptop choice, first boot issues

[Paul Johnson]

On Tuesday 23 November 2004 7:54 pm, Victor Munoz wrote:
> It will probably not be possible to buy a laptop without XP installed. 

I believe CTL will sell you a laptop without an OS.
http://www.ctl.info/

> There's also the issue of the special "recovery" partition somewhere in the 
> hard disk. And there's the issue of hardware detection.  

Recovery partition is usually just to recover from suspend-to-disk, though I 
understand Linux 2.6 has it's own facility for this.

> 1. If I naively do a normal boot, then filesystem conversion will take
> place, and I will not be able to (easily) resize partitions to make room for
> Linux later? Or the only problem with NTFS is that they're read-only?

I've resized NTFS partitions using parted.

> 2. If I keep XP, then I also have to keep the "recovery" partition. Right?

Not that I know of...

> 3. If I keep XP, what would be a suitable partition size for it? I will not
> really use it, just a backup in case I need to know about some hardware,
> until I'm sure sid is working properly with all hardware.

Well, the minimum requirements according to Microsoft's page about Win XP 
Pro's system requirements[1] says that you need at least 1.5GB.  
Realistically, if you can get what you need in a Windows system in 2GB, 
you're a bigger geek than I.

> 4. A simpler alternative would be to boot first time with Knoppix, which
> seems to do a very good job detecting hardware. Learn all I have to learn
> with Knoppix, and then delete all partitions and start with a pure Debian
> system. Any horror stories out there?

That's usually how I check for smoothness: If Knoppix Just Works, Debian's 
probably going to work.

> 5. This recovery partition, is of use only to Windows? The "delete all
> partitions" part above is safe if I intend to have Debian only?

AFAIK, yes.  I accidentally killed the suspend partition on my laptop with no 
ill effects.


[1]  http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/upgrading/sysreqs.mspx

-- 
Paul Johnson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ursine.dyndns.org/


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