Re: List packages from non-default repositories

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

Thanks for the detailed inspection. I'll have a closer look into the apt 
abilities.
Regards,
Jörg.

Re: List packages from non-default repositories

[Max Nikulin]

On 04/10/2023 15:42, Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote:

$ apt list '~i' | grep -v '/testing'

and

$ apt-show-versions | grep -v '/testing '

show the same packages, correctly, but

$ apt list '~i!~Atesting'

is missing some packages.


It is the reason why I added '?narrow'. Try

   apt list '?any-version(~i!~A^testing)'

For me it is not intuitive that the outer '?any-version()' modifies 
result of the inner '?and()'.


Actually the expression gives *some* upgradable packages in addition, 
but not all of them. For the stable release installed libc6 version is 
available from bookworm/main, but thunderbird-102 has been wiped from 
bookworm-security, so


apt list '?narrow(~i, ~n"^(thunderbird|libc6)$", !~A^stable)'
Listing... Done
thunderbird/stable-security 1:115.3.1-1~deb12u1 amd64 [upgradable from: 
1:102.15.1-1~deb12u1]

N: There are 3 additional versions. Please use the '-a' switch to see them.

skips libc6 however it can be upgraded

apt list '~U~n"^(thunderbird|libc6)$"'
Listing... Done
libc6/stable-security 2.36-9+deb12u3 amd64 [upgradable from: 2.36-9+deb12u1]
thunderbird/stable-security 1:115.3.1-1~deb12u1 amd64 [upgradable from: 
1:102.15.1-1~deb12u1]


It took some time for me to figure out what is the difference.

apt policy libc6 thunderbird
libc6:
  Installed: 2.36-9+deb12u1
  Candidate: 2.36-9+deb12u3
  Version table:
 2.37-10 100
100 http://deb.debian.org/debian trixie/main amd64 Packages
 2.36-9+deb12u3 500
500 http://security.debian.org/debian-security 
bookworm-security/main amd64 Packages

 *** 2.36-9+deb12u1 500
500 http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
thunderbird:
  Installed: 1:102.15.1-1~deb12u1
  Candidate: 1:115.3.1-1~deb12u1
  Version table:
 1:115.3.1-1~deb12u1 500
500 http://security.debian.org/debian-security 
bookworm-security/main amd64 Packages

 1:115.2.2-1 100
100 http://deb.debian.org/debian trixie/main amd64 Packages
 *** 1:102.15.1-1~deb12u1 100
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
 1:102.13.0-1~deb12u1 500
500 http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 Packages

So either ", !~U" should be added inside "?narrow()" or "| ~U" outside 
of it, depending on desired result in respect to upgradable packages.

Re: List packages from non-default repositories

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

Max Nikulin wrote on 04/10/2023 04:22:

On 04/10/2023 01:29, Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote:

Max Nikulin wrote on 03/10/2023 12:11:

apt list '?narrow(~i, !~Astable|~Astable-backports|!~O^Debian$|~o|~c)'


In my experience the only tool that gives correct answers, is 
apt-show-versions in the package of the same name:


$ apt-show-versions | grep -v '/stable '


Thanks.

Do you have an example of a case when apt-show-versions works better when the 
following command?


   apt list '~i' | grep -Ev '[/,]stable(-updates|-security)?,'



I have to add that I'm working on a system from the testing archive with 
unstable and experimental archives also available.


Indeed the commands

$ apt list '~i' | grep -v '/testing'

and

$ apt-show-versions | grep -v '/testing '

show the same packages, correctly, but

$ apt list '~i!~Atesting'

is missing some packages.

Regards,
Jörg.

Re: List packages from non-default repositories

[Max Nikulin]

On 04/10/2023 11:58, David Wright wrote:

Explanations for these hits:
   linux-image is the previous kernel,
   xtoolwait is from squeeze,
   youtube-dl is the last I found before I started using yt-dlp,
   and I don't have backports in my sources.list.


Besides youtube-dl, these packages should be reported by

   apt list '~o'

In my cases '~o' was inapplicable since packages are available from 
configured repositories. At certain moment (after reinstalling 
libstdc++6 and removing gcc-13-base) my list was

  elpa-org/testing,now 9.6.9+dfsg-1 all [installed]
  libnss3/testing,now 2:3.92-1 amd64 [installed,automatic]
  libx11-6/testing,now 2:1.8.6-1 amd64 [installed,automatic]
  libx11-xcb1/testing,now 2:1.8.6-1 amd64 [installed,automatic]
  linux-image-6.4.0-0.deb12.2-amd64/stable-backports,now 
6.4.4-3~bpo12+1 amd64 [installed,automatic]


I have realized that in my original command '~o' may be omitted, '~c' 
was added at a wrong place. In comparison to "apt list '~i'" or 
apt-show-versions + grep it had additional feature (or bug). It listed 
upgradable packages. So my current pattern to get package candidates for 
clean-up is (for oldstable)


  apt list '?narrow(~i, 
!~A^oldstable|~A^oldstable-backports|!~O^Debian$, !~U) | ~c | ~b'

Re: List packages from non-default repositories

[David Wright]

On Wed 04 Oct 2023 at 09:22:06 (+0700), Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 04/10/2023 01:29, Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote:
> > Max Nikulin wrote on 03/10/2023 12:11:
> > > apt list '?narrow(~i, !~Astable|~Astable-backports|!~O^Debian$|~o|~c)'
> > 
> > In my experience the only tool that gives correct answers, is
> > apt-show-versions in the package of the same name:
> > 
> > $ apt-show-versions | grep -v '/stable '
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Do you have an example of a case when apt-show-versions works better
> when the following command?
> 
>   apt list '~i' | grep -Ev '[/,]stable(-updates|-security)?,'
> 
> OK, it issues a warning
> 
> WARNING: apt does not have a stable CLI interface. Use with caution in
> scripts.
> 
> In my case apt list + grep  gives the same packages as "apt list" with
> the pattern I posted.

  $ apt-show-versions | grep -v '/bullseye'
  linux-image-5.10.0-24-amd64:amd64 5.10.179-5 installed: No available version 
in archive
  xtoolwait:amd64 1.3-6.2 installed: No available version in archive
  youtube-dl:all 2021.12.17-1~bpo11+1 newer than version in archive
  yt-dlp:all 2023.07.06-1~bpo12+1 installed: No available version in archive
  $ apt list '~i' | grep -Ev '[/,]oldstable(-updates|-security)?,'

  WARNING: apt does not have a stable CLI interface. Use with caution in 
scripts.

  Listing...
  linux-image-5.10.0-24-amd64/now 5.10.179-5 amd64 [installed,local]
  xtoolwait/now 1.3-6.2 amd64 [installed,local]
  youtube-dl/now 2021.12.17-1~bpo11+1 all [installed,local]
  yt-dlp/now 2023.07.06-1~bpo12+1 all [installed,local]
  $ 

So just a little more information in the first.

Explanations for these hits:
  linux-image is the previous kernel,
  xtoolwait is from squeeze,
  youtube-dl is the last I found before I started using yt-dlp,
  and I don't have backports in my sources.list.

Cheers,
David.

Re: List packages from non-default repositories

[Max Nikulin]

On 04/10/2023 01:29, Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote:

Max Nikulin wrote on 03/10/2023 12:11:

apt list '?narrow(~i, !~Astable|~Astable-backports|!~O^Debian$|~o|~c)'


In my experience the only tool that gives correct answers, is 
apt-show-versions in the package of the same name:


$ apt-show-versions | grep -v '/stable '


Thanks.

Do you have an example of a case when apt-show-versions works better 
when the following command?


  apt list '~i' | grep -Ev '[/,]stable(-updates|-security)?,'

OK, it issues a warning

WARNING: apt does not have a stable CLI interface. Use with caution in 
scripts.


In my case apt list + grep  gives the same packages as "apt list" with 
the pattern I posted.

Re: List packages from non-default repositories

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

Max Nikulin wrote on 03/10/2023 12:11:

apt list '?narrow(~i, !~Astable|~Astable-backports|!~O^Debian$|~o|~c)'


In my experience the only tool that gives correct answers, is apt-show-versions 
in the package of the same name:


$ apt-show-versions | grep -v '/stable '

Beware, that it works with a database which should be updated before asking 
something.


Regards,
Jörg.

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[davidson]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 Bret Busby wrote:

On 14/8/23 03:36, davidson wrote:

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 Andy Smith wrote:

Hello,

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 12:12:49AM +, davidson wrote:

The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
irrelevant to my interests


Unfortunately no matter how advanced your MUA is, it doesn't help
against prolific posters who derail nearly every thread with
copious amounts of irrelevance and outright false information.


This is a higher bar than merely neutralising the disruption (to
one's own use of the list) caused by a popular thread that one has
little interest in.

And here, my instincts are screaming "Leave it here. Stop
now. Leave well enough alone for the sake of all that is holy!"

However, and speaking only for myself, I'll bite:

Being able to see a thread's messages structured as a tree of
message headers (author, subject) can indeed help me infer quite a
bit about what's going on, before I bother to dig in and actually
read any of the messages' content.

For example, let P and Q be two regularly prolific participants, P
with exceptionally high signal-to-noise contributions, and Q a hot
willfully clueless mess. If there is a branch of the tree that is
just a chain of back-and-forth between P and Q --Q.P.Q.P.Q...--
then I know what's going on in there and so some OTHER branch will
be my first destination, unless I'm in the mood for a laugh.


You can easily see from looking at most of the large threads here,
the points at which they go off the rails and the common factors
involved there.


I can indeed. Without seeing the tree structure, I do not think it
would be so easy to see.


It is a difficult problem to solve as mailing lists like this tend
to promote a volume-wins approach,


You may be correct, but this isn't clear to me. (Unless the object
of the game is to annoy the greatest number of participants.)


and the baseline user will not have an advanced MUA nor necessarily
the experience to know that they're reading nonsense.


When I conquer the world, you will know because /etc/motd will
contain something like this:

   Don't enter commands you don't understand, and you won't
   understand the commands unless you read the manual. If you read
   the manual, you STILL may not understand the
   commands. Nevertheless, keep trying, Curious Human. We are
   rooting for you!


Things get easier when you use an advanced MUA, so people should
invest the time to do so, but let's not pretend that this will avoid
a mega-thread next time some outlandish thread hijack by one of the
usual suspects happens.


My point was simply this: threads I've lost interest in (regardless
of size) are a single line in my mailbox, provided I do not delete
its initial message.


Does this particular thread go much better if you assume that
everyone participating (except the OP, who doesn't know how to
unsubscribe, or how to spell it) is fully competent at efficiently
managing email but still posts as they posted?


Funnily enough, if you look carefully, you can see some utterly
slapstick confusion of that very nature in this thread, over who is to
blame for posting a red-herring link to the Alpine Linux distro
mailing list:

%<---
 18159 Thursday   glenn green(6K) . UNUBSCRIBE
 ...   ............
[1] 18192 Yesterday  fjd (7K) .   |  \-Alpine was
[2] 18193 Yesterday  Bret Busby  (8K) .   ||-Re: Alpi
[6] 18194  5:55  fjd (7K) || |-Re: Al
[7] 18195  6:11  fjd (8K) || \-Re: Al
[3] 18196 Yesterday  Jeffrey Walton  (7K) .   |\-Re: Alpi
[4] 18197 Yesterday  Greg Wooledge   (5K) .   |  \-Re: Al
[5] 18198  2:41  Bret Busby  (9K) .   |\-Re:
 18199 Yesterday  David Wright   (6K) |  \-Re

--->%

Somebody requests a link to an alpine MUA forum or mailing list.
  [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00333.html

Somebody posts a link to an alpine MUA mailing list.
  [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00341.html

Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning
the linux distro called Alpine Linux.
  [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html

Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they
have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view
is illuminating.
  [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html

And then the person who had posted the CORRECT link in the first
place apologises for posting the wrong one, and posts the very same
correct link once again. <-- This 

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[davidson]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 Jeffrey Walton wrote:

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 4:33 PM davidson  wrote:

[...]
Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning
the linux distro called Alpine Linux.
 [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html

Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they
have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view
is illuminating.
 [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html
[...]
(The person who really HAD posted the red herring says nothing.)


What would you have me say? Greg made the correction.


I laid out the details of the process leading to the three-car
miscommunication pileup because it serves as a handy illustrative
example, in response to a question about whether knowledge of thread
structure could affect participant decisions.

Description, not prescription. I'm not here to tell consenting adults
what to do.


Do you really need more fodder from me?


Nope. For my part I am fully up to speed.

But have you noticed the other fellow in this thread, who is now
calling me a malicious liar for giving you all the credit, and openly
fantasising about how underground debian justice-league ninjas are
about to break into my house, delete my account, and swap the taps in
my shower?

Looks like I'm in for a real Amélie Poulain job, it does. But the
joke's on him; I get the taps confused every time anyways, so at worst
I won't notice a thing.


But I'll give you what you want...


I'm not a priest. And, just for the record since you seem to have read
me otherwise, I happen to think everyone's behavior so far has been
pretty normal human behavior, given reasonable assumptions about what
each knew at the time of their respective contributions.

The sheer normality of it is what makes it a good example, and perfect
comedy.


I sincerely apologize for posting an incorrect link to an Alpine
mailing list.  I am so sorry I troubled you for it.  I hope you can
find it in your heart to forgive me for the transgression, and the
inconvenience I caused to all members of the list.


I welcome your evident sarcasm here as a sign that we both agree that
the miscommunication event in question was a very normal one.

--
Hackers are free people. They are like artists. If they are in a good
mood, they get up in the morning and begin painting their pictures.
-- Vladimir Putin

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Bret Busby]

On 14/8/23 03:36, davidson wrote:

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 Andy Smith wrote:

Hello,

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 12:12:49AM +, davidson wrote:

The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
irrelevant to my interests


Unfortunately no matter how advanced your MUA is, it doesn't help
against prolific posters who derail nearly every thread with copious
amounts of irrelevance and outright false information.


This is a higher bar than merely neutralising the disruption (to one's
own use of the list) caused by a popular thread that one has little
interest in.

And here, my instincts are screaming "Leave it here. Stop now. Leave
well enough alone for the sake of all that is holy!"

However, and speaking only for myself, I'll bite:

Being able to see a thread's messages structured as a tree of message
headers (author, subject) can indeed help me infer quite a bit about
what's going on, before I bother to dig in and actually read any of
the messages' content.

For example, let P and Q be two regularly prolific participants, P
with exceptionally high signal-to-noise contributions, and Q a hot
willfully clueless mess. If there is a branch of the tree that is just
a chain of back-and-forth between P and Q --Q.P.Q.P.Q...-- then I know
what's going on in there and so some OTHER branch will be my first
destination, unless I'm in the mood for a laugh.


You can easily see from looking at most of the large threads here,
the points at which they go off the rails and the common factors
involved there.


I can indeed. Without seeing the tree structure, I do not think it
would be so easy to see.


It is a difficult problem to solve as mailing lists like this tend
to promote a volume-wins approach,


You may be correct, but this isn't clear to me. (Unless the object of
the game is to annoy the greatest number of participants.)


and the baseline user will not have an advanced MUA nor necessarily
the experience to know that they're reading nonsense.


When I conquer the world, you will know because /etc/motd will contain
something like this:

   Don't enter commands you don't understand, and you won't understand
   the commands unless you read the manual. If you read the manual, you
   STILL may not understand the commands. Nevertheless, keep trying,
   Curious Human. We are rooting for you!


Things get easier when you use an advanced MUA, so people should
invest the time to do so, but let's not pretend that this will avoid
a mega-thread next time some outlandish thread hijack by one of the
usual suspects happens.


My point was simply this: threads I've lost interest in (regardless of
size) are a single line in my mailbox, provided I do not delete its
initial message.


Does this particular thread go much better if you assume that
everyone participating (except the OP, who doesn't know how to
unsubscribe, or how to spell it) is fully competent at efficiently
managing email but still posts as they posted?


Funnily enough, if you look carefully, you can see some utterly
slapstick confusion of that very nature in this thread, over who is to
blame for posting a red-herring link to the Alpine Linux distro
mailing list:

%<--
 18159 Thursday   glenn green   (6K) . UNUBSCRIBE
 ...   ......   ......
[1] 18192 Yesterday  fjd   (7K) .   |   \-Alpine was
[2] 18193 Yesterday  Bret Busby(8K) .   | |-Re: Alpi
[6] 18194  5:55  fjd   (7K) | | |-Re: Al
[7] 18195  6:11  fjd   (8K) | | \-Re: Al
[3] 18196 Yesterday  Jeffrey Walton(7K) .   | \-Re: Alpi
[4] 18197 Yesterday  Greg Wooledge (5K) .   |   \-Re: Al
[5] 18198  2:41  Bret Busby(9K) .   | \-Re:
 18199 Yesterday  David Wright  (6K) |   
\-Re
-->%

Somebody requests a link to an alpine MUA forum or mailing list.
  [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00333.html

Somebody posts a link to an alpine MUA mailing list.
  [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00341.html

Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning
the linux distro called Alpine Linux.
  [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html

Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they
have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view
is illuminating.
  [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html

And then the person who had posted the CORRECT link in the first place
apologises for posting the wrong one, and posts the very same correct
link once again. <-- This 

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 4:33 PM davidson  wrote:
> [...]
> Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning
> the linux distro called Alpine Linux.
>  [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html
>
> Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they
> have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view
> is illuminating.
>  [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html
> [...]
> (The person who really HAD posted the red herring says nothing.)

What would you have me say? Greg made the correction. Do you really
need more fodder from me?

But I'll give you what you want... I sincerely apologize for posting
an incorrect link to an Alpine mailing list. I am so sorry I troubled
you for it. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for the
transgression, and the inconvenience I caused to all members of the
list.

Jeff

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[davidson]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 12:12:49AM +, davidson wrote:
>> The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
>> threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
>> irrelevant to my interests
>
> Unfortunately no matter how advanced your MUA is, it doesn't help
> against prolific posters who derail nearly every thread with copious
> amounts of irrelevance and outright false information.

This is a higher bar than merely neutralising the disruption (to one's
own use of the list) caused by a popular thread that one has little
interest in.

And here, my instincts are screaming "Leave it here. Stop now. Leave
well enough alone for the sake of all that is holy!"

However, and speaking only for myself, I'll bite:

Being able to see a thread's messages structured as a tree of message
headers (author, subject) can indeed help me infer quite a bit about
what's going on, before I bother to dig in and actually read any of
the messages' content.

For example, let P and Q be two regularly prolific participants, P
with exceptionally high signal-to-noise contributions, and Q a hot
willfully clueless mess. If there is a branch of the tree that is just
a chain of back-and-forth between P and Q --Q.P.Q.P.Q...-- then I know
what's going on in there and so some OTHER branch will be my first
destination, unless I'm in the mood for a laugh.

> You can easily see from looking at most of the large threads here,
> the points at which they go off the rails and the common factors
> involved there.

I can indeed. Without seeing the tree structure, I do not think it
would be so easy to see.

> It is a difficult problem to solve as mailing lists like this tend
> to promote a volume-wins approach,

You may be correct, but this isn't clear to me. (Unless the object of
the game is to annoy the greatest number of participants.)

> and the baseline user will not have an advanced MUA nor necessarily
> the experience to know that they're reading nonsense.

When I conquer the world, you will know because /etc/motd will contain
something like this:

  Don't enter commands you don't understand, and you won't understand
  the commands unless you read the manual. If you read the manual, you
  STILL may not understand the commands. Nevertheless, keep trying,
  Curious Human. We are rooting for you!

> Things get easier when you use an advanced MUA, so people should
> invest the time to do so, but let's not pretend that this will avoid
> a mega-thread next time some outlandish thread hijack by one of the
> usual suspects happens.

My point was simply this: threads I've lost interest in (regardless of
size) are a single line in my mailbox, provided I do not delete its
initial message.

> Does this particular thread go much better if you assume that
> everyone participating (except the OP, who doesn't know how to
> unsubscribe, or how to spell it) is fully competent at efficiently
> managing email but still posts as they posted?

Funnily enough, if you look carefully, you can see some utterly
slapstick confusion of that very nature in this thread, over who is to
blame for posting a red-herring link to the Alpine Linux distro
mailing list:

%<--
18159 Thursday   glenn green   (6K) . UNUBSCRIBE
...   ......   ......
[1] 18192 Yesterday  fjd   (7K) .   |   \-Alpine was
[2] 18193 Yesterday  Bret Busby(8K) .   | |-Re: Alpi
[6] 18194  5:55  fjd   (7K) | | |-Re: Al
[7] 18195  6:11  fjd   (8K) | | \-Re: Al
[3] 18196 Yesterday  Jeffrey Walton(7K) .   | \-Re: Alpi
[4] 18197 Yesterday  Greg Wooledge (5K) .   |   \-Re: Al
[5] 18198  2:41  Bret Busby(9K) .   | \-Re:
18199 Yesterday  David Wright  (6K) |   \-Re
-->%

Somebody requests a link to an alpine MUA forum or mailing list.
 [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00333.html

Somebody posts a link to an alpine MUA mailing list.
 [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00341.html

Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning
the linux distro called Alpine Linux.
 [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html

Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they
have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view
is illuminating.
 [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html

And then the person who had posted the CORRECT link in the first place
apologises for posting the wrong one, and posts the very same correct
link once again. <-- This person, it would 

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 12:12:49AM +, davidson wrote:
> The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
> threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
> irrelevant to my interests

Unfortunately no matter how advanced your MUA is, it doesn't help
against prolific posters who derail nearly every thread with copious
amounts of irrelevance and outright false information.

You can easily see from looking at most of the large threads here,
the points at which they go off the rails and the common factors
involved there.

It is a difficult problem to solve as mailing lists like this tend
to promote a volume-wins approach, and the baseline user will not
have an advanced MUA nor necessarily the experience to know that
they're reading nonsense.

Things get easier when you use an advanced MUA, so people should
invest the time to do so, but let's not pretend that this will avoid
a mega-thread next time some outlandish thread hijack by one of the
usual suspects happens. Does this particular thread go much better if
you assume that everyone participating (except the OP, who doesn't
know how to unsubscribe, or how to spell it) is fully competent at
efficiently managing email but still posts as they posted?

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Sorting messages by threads - was - Re: List administrators - request for intervention

[Bret Busby]

On 13/8/23 08:12, davidson wrote:

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 Bret Busby wrote:
[snip]

Hello.

Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and 
the "unubscribe" thread?


In alpine, I have a filter rule that moves all debian-user messages
from my inbox to a dedicated folder.

Here is a sample of what I see in alpine, when I view the contents of
that mail folder, in threaded mode with threads collapsed:

%<--
     18284  9:42  Hans  (7K)   Re: 
libkscreenlocker5:
   N 18285 Yesterday  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Crosshairs in 
gimp 2.1
   N 18288 15:45  Erwan David   (8K) > Swap size in 
debain 12
     18292 12:35  Greg Wooledge (7K)   Re: Mailing 
list unsub
* N 18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink (6K) > Sound loses my 
analog *   18298 Thursday   glenn green   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE
   N 18332 11:44  Piscium   (7K) > Cannot 
install Debian
   N 18339 13:45  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Time stamps 
on session
*   18342 14:49  gene heskett  (6K) > setting up 
network wit

-->%

All 34 messages (at this time) to the UNUBSCRIBE thread are collapsed;
only the OP's initial message is visible. As long as I retain the
thread-initial message, subsequent contributions to that thread will
be invisible, in this collapsed view.

If a thread interests me, say Carl Fink's, I can expand it:

%<--
     18284  9:42  Hans  (7K)   Re: 
libkscreenlocker5:
   N 18285 Yesterday  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Crosshairs in 
gimp 2.1
   N 18288 15:45  Erwan David   (8K) > Swap size in 
debain 12
     18292 12:35  Greg Wooledge (7K)   Re: Mailing 
list unsub
*   18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink (6K) . Sound loses my 
analog *   18294 Thursday   Marco (5K) . \-Re: 
Sound loses my a
     18295 Yesterday  Carl Fink    (30K) .   \-Re: Sound 
loses my
     18296  5:05  Marco (5K) . \-Re: 
Sound loses
   N 18297 14:49  Carl Fink (6K) \-Re: 
Sound lose

*   18298 Thursday   glenn green   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE
   N 18332 11:44  Piscium   (7K) > Cannot 
install Debian
   N 18339 13:45  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Time stamps 
on session
*   18342 14:49  gene heskett  (6K) > setting up 
network wit

-->%

But if a thread does *not* interest me, I don't expand it, and then
the only visible effect of subsequent contributions to that thread is
to promote the thread down the list (since threads nearer the bottom
are more recently active).




[snip]
So, please, shut the two threads down, so the mailing list can return 
to the subject matter for which the list was created and is 
maintained; discussion of the use of Debian, and, seeking help with 
the operating system, and, not the extraneous (extreme euphemism) 
"stuff", that has arisen, like a living, growing, cesspool.


The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
irrelevant to my interests: I view debian-user in threaded mode with
collapsed threads, and simply do not expand the ones that don't
concern me.

I believe these are the config settings I use to enable this:

     ...
     [X]  Thread Sorts by Arrival
     ...
     Sort Key  =
     Set    Sort Options
     ---  --
     ( )  Subject
     ( )  Arrival
     ( )  From
     ( )  To
     ( )  Cc
     ( )  Date
     ( )  siZe
     ( )  OrderedSubj
     ( )  scorE
     (*)  tHread
     ( )  Reverse Subject
     ( )  Reverse Arrival
     ( )  Reverse From
     ( )  Reverse To
     ( )  Reverse Cc
     ( )  Reverse Date
     ( )  Reverse siZe
     ( )  Reverse OrderedSubj
     ( )  Reverse scorE
     ( )  Reverse tHread
     ...
     Threading Display Style   =
     Set    Rule Values
     ---  --
     ( )  none
     (*)  show-thread-structure    (default)
     ( )  mutt-like
     ( )  indent-subject-1
     ( )  indent-subject-2
     ( )  indent-from-1
     ( )  indent-from-2
     ( )  show-structure-in-from
     ...
     Threading Index Style =
     Set    Rule Values
 

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 10:18 AM Andrew M.A. Cater  wrote:
> [...]
> No one of us is perfect: the temptation to just add a bit more when you
> are irritated or something is wrong on the internet can be very strong.
>
> Obligatory xkcd cartoon: https://xkcd.com/386

Yeah, some threads refuse to die. Some folks just won't let things go.
Other folks just ignore what they are told, which causes everyone to
repeat themselves. And then there's the hydras - threads that spawn
multiple threads that won't die. Ugh...

I'm subscribed to a lot of lists. I think debian-users is the worst
when it comes to run-on threads.

Jeff

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[davidson]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 davidson wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 Bret Busby wrote:
> [snip]
>> Hello.
>> 
>> Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and the 
>> "unubscribe" thread?
>
> In alpine, I have a filter rule that moves all debian-user messages
> from my inbox to a dedicated folder.
>
> Here is a sample of what I see in alpine, when I view the contents of
> that mail folder, in threaded mode with threads collapsed:

Flowed text garbled the snapshots a little.

%<--
18284  9:42  Hans  (7K)   Re: libkscreenlocker5:
  N 18285 Yesterday  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1
  N 18288 15:45  Erwan David   (8K) > Swap size in debain 12
18292 12:35  Greg Wooledge (7K)   Re: Mailing list unsub
* N 18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink (6K) > Sound loses my analog 
*   18298 Thursday   glenn green   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE
  N 18332 11:44  Piscium   (7K) > Cannot install Debian
  N 18339 13:45  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Time stamps on session
*   18342 14:49  gene heskett  (6K) > setting up network wit
-->%

%<--
18284  9:42  Hans  (7K)   Re: libkscreenlocker5:
  N 18285 Yesterday  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1
  N 18288 15:45  Erwan David   (8K) > Swap size in debain 12
18292 12:35  Greg Wooledge (7K)   Re: Mailing list unsub
*   18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink (6K) . Sound loses my analog 
*   18294 Thursday   Marco (5K) . \-Re: Sound loses my a
18295 Yesterday  Carl Fink(30K) .   \-Re: Sound loses my
18296  5:05  Marco (5K) . \-Re: Sound loses
  N 18297 14:49  Carl Fink (6K) \-Re: Sound lose
*   18298 Thursday   glenn green   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE
  N 18332 11:44  Piscium   (7K) > Cannot install Debian
  N 18339 13:45  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Time stamps on session
*   18342 14:49  gene heskett  (6K) > setting up network wit
-->%

-- 
Hackers are free people. They are like artists. If they are in a good
mood, they get up in the morning and begin painting their pictures.
-- Vladimir Putin

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[davidson]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 Bret Busby wrote:
[snip]

Hello.

Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and the 
"unubscribe" thread?


In alpine, I have a filter rule that moves all debian-user messages
from my inbox to a dedicated folder.

Here is a sample of what I see in alpine, when I view the contents of
that mail folder, in threaded mode with threads collapsed:

%<--
18284  9:42  Hans  (7K)   Re: libkscreenlocker5:
  N 18285 Yesterday  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1
  N 18288 15:45  Erwan David   (8K) > Swap size in debain 12
18292 12:35  Greg Wooledge (7K)   Re: Mailing list unsub
* N 18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink (6K) > Sound loses my analog 
*   18298 Thursday   glenn green   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE

  N 18332 11:44  Piscium   (7K) > Cannot install Debian
  N 18339 13:45  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Time stamps on session
*   18342 14:49  gene heskett  (6K) > setting up network wit
-->%

All 34 messages (at this time) to the UNUBSCRIBE thread are collapsed;
only the OP's initial message is visible. As long as I retain the
thread-initial message, subsequent contributions to that thread will
be invisible, in this collapsed view.

If a thread interests me, say Carl Fink's, I can expand it:

%<--
18284  9:42  Hans  (7K)   Re: libkscreenlocker5:
  N 18285 Yesterday  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1
  N 18288 15:45  Erwan David   (8K) > Swap size in debain 12
18292 12:35  Greg Wooledge (7K)   Re: Mailing list unsub
*   18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink (6K) . Sound loses my analog 
*   18294 Thursday   Marco (5K) . \-Re: Sound loses my a

18295 Yesterday  Carl Fink(30K) .   \-Re: Sound loses my
18296  5:05  Marco (5K) . \-Re: Sound loses
  N 18297 14:49  Carl Fink (6K) \-Re: Sound lose
*   18298 Thursday   glenn green   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE
  N 18332 11:44  Piscium   (7K) > Cannot install Debian
  N 18339 13:45  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Time stamps on session
*   18342 14:49  gene heskett  (6K) > setting up network wit
-->%

But if a thread does *not* interest me, I don't expand it, and then
the only visible effect of subsequent contributions to that thread is
to promote the thread down the list (since threads nearer the bottom
are more recently active).




[snip]
So, please, shut the two threads down, so the mailing list can return to the 
subject matter for which the list was created and is maintained; discussion 
of the use of Debian, and, seeking help with the operating system, and, not 
the extraneous (extreme euphemism) "stuff", that has arisen, like a living, 
growing, cesspool.


The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
irrelevant to my interests: I view debian-user in threaded mode with
collapsed threads, and simply do not expand the ones that don't
concern me.

I believe these are the config settings I use to enable this:

...
[X]  Thread Sorts by Arrival
...
Sort Key  =
SetSort Options
---  --
( )  Subject
( )  Arrival
( )  From
( )  To
( )  Cc
( )  Date
( )  siZe
( )  OrderedSubj
( )  scorE
(*)  tHread
( )  Reverse Subject
( )  Reverse Arrival
( )  Reverse From
( )  Reverse To
( )  Reverse Cc
( )  Reverse Date
( )  Reverse siZe
( )  Reverse OrderedSubj
( )  Reverse scorE
( )  Reverse tHread
...
Threading Display Style   =
SetRule Values
---  --
( )  none
(*)  show-thread-structure(default)
( )  mutt-like
( )  indent-subject-1
( )  indent-subject-2
( )  indent-from-1
( )  indent-from-2
( )  show-structure-in-from
...
Threading Index Style =
SetRule Values
---  --
( )  regular-index-with-expanded-threads
(*)  

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 08:53:43AM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> Hello.
> 
> Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and the
> "unubscribe" thread?
> 

Sadly, this list isn't fully moderated: the only way to stop any particular
thread is not to contribute to it.

I spend some time monitoring in case threads become acrimonious: I also
post an FAQ here once a month reminding folk here of the Debian Code of
Conduct.

It's probably worth another reminder, formally, from me as a member of
the Debian Community Team, that people posting to the list are respectfully
asked to abide by the Code of Conduct. Be polite, be constructive, be
helpful - don't fan the flames of flame wars.

No one of us is perfect: the temptation to just add a bit more when you
are irritated or something is wrong on the internet can be very strong.

Obligatory xkcd cartoon: https://xkcd.com/386

It's also quite easy to criticise the perpetrators of long threads: the easiest
way to stop them is not to add to them.

I could always add the how to unsubscribe to the FAQ - but if people don't read
mail headers and footers on the list, they won't read the FAQ either :(


> 
> So, please, shut the two threads down, so the mailing list can return to the
> subject matter for which the list was created and is maintained; discussionWW
> of the use of Debian, and, seeking help with the operating system, and, not
> the extraneous (extreme euphemism) "stuff", that has arisen, like a living,
> growing, cesspool.
> 
> Thank you in anticipation
> 

With every good wish, as ever,

Andy Cater

[amaca...@debian.org]
For the Debian Community Team
> ..
> Bret Busby
> Armadale
> West Australia
> (UTC+0800)
> ..
> 

Re: List admin email address?

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 1:32 AM john doe  wrote:
>
> On 3/11/23 06:14, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> >
> > I receive bounces when using the debian-users list (see below). I'd
> > like to get the bad email address removed from the list.
> >
> > I want to contact the list admin, but I cannot find a contact at [1] or [2].
> >
> > How do we contact the list admin?
>
> Look for 'Mailing list administrators and archives maintainers' at [1].
>
> [1] https://www.debian.org/contact

Thanks.

Re: List admin email address?

[john doe]

On 3/11/23 06:14, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

Hi Everyone,

I receive bounces when using the debian-users list (see below). I'd
like to get the bad email address removed from the list.

I want to contact the list admin, but I cannot find a contact at [1] or [2].

How do we contact the list admin?


Look for 'Mailing list administrators and archives maintainers' at [1].

[1] https://www.debian.org/contact

--
John Doe

Re: List-Archive URLs and slashes in Message Ids

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Paul Wise wrote:
> This issue has been present for a long time unfortunately.
> There is a workaround, you can use a URL query parameter instead:
> https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/?m=YvogMm/B0cM/a...@einval.com

This works indeed.
I guess the proposal was already made to augment the URL format in the
List-Archive: header by such a "?m=" text snippet.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: List-Archive URLs and slashes in Message Ids

[Paul Wise]

Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> something's wrong with the msgid-search URLs for Message-Ids with "/".

This issue has been present for a long time unfortunately.

> Does anybody have an idea how to follow the List-Archive hint without
> entering the Message-Id part manually into lists.debian.org/msgid-search ?

There is a workaround, you can use a URL query parameter instead:

https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/?m=YvogMm/B0cM/a...@einval.com

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: [?]List of Best Debian-approved laptops in India

[Susmita/Rajib]

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 07:44:03 +, "Andrew M.A. Cater"
 wrote:
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Vendors not responding [WAS Re: [?]List of Best
> Debian-approved laptops in India]
[...]
> Message-id: <[] 20210419074403.ga4...@einval.com>
> In-reply-to: <[]
> caeg4czujte5rd3x-nb6n-+4rmnurqh1zer5vsaf4cw7_oy7...@mail.gmail.com>
> References: <[]
> caeg4czu0mqrkfzbjypl_wzutdouojmmrw509tw82hp0gcyu...@mail.gmail.com>
> 
> 
> 
> <[] CAEG4cZUfqMv=86c6Fr2n2rVtN70hA-=o5xorfkxlxuniczc...@mail.gmail.com>
> 
> <[] caeg4czujte5rd3x-nb6n-+4rmnurqh1zer5vsaf4cw7_oy7...@mail.gmail.com>
[...]
> Hi Rajib,
>
> If you are in India, please check for us ...
[...]
> Information becomes outdated: if you can help advise of what is current,
> that will be useful.
>
> Thanks, as ever,
>
> Andy Cater
>

I am already doing so, for my own PITA.

Best.
Rajib

Vendors not responding [WAS Re: [?]List of Best Debian-approved laptops in India]

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 07:16:06AM +0530, Susmita/Rajib wrote:
> Perhaps these lines in the post:
> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=10=149280 were missed.
> 
> [quote="bkpsusmitaa"]Have been referring to the page:
> https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn#OfficialDocumentation
> [...]
> Indian vendors have been contacted by email/SMS or called over phone.
> Remain Incommunicado.
> https://www.debian.org/distrib/pre-installed#in
> [/quote]
> 
> Best,
> Rajib
> 
Hi Rajib,

If you are in India, please check for us. If the vendors do not respond,
check the websites to see that they still exist and that they still 
appear to be offering Linux somewhere.

If they don't: the wiki is a volunteer effort - if you know of any vendors
who are helpful, add them. If you're sure that the existing vendors offering
pre-installed Debian are no longer there, send a short note in to the 
debian-www list advising them of this.

Information becomes outdated: if you can help advise of what is current,
that will be useful.

Thanks, as ever,

Andy Cater

Re: [?]List of Best Debian-approved laptops in India

[Felix Miata]

Susmita/Rajib composed on 2021-04-19 08:34 (UTC+0530):

> On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 21:52:25 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> Can I make a request please? Could I send you a reply from the other thread 
> at:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/04/msg00512.html

Unless and until all traces of NVidia's driver installation and associated
configuration changes have been purged from your machine, I can be no help 
except
WRT eradicating them. Even in that regard others know better than me how to
proceed. AFAICT, whatever NVidia driver installation does eliminates any chance 
to
make FOSS drivers work acceptably.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [?]List of Best Debian-approved laptops in India

[Susmita/Rajib]

On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 21:52:25 -0400, Felix Miata  wrote:
[...]
As above indicated, it works with Debian 10, using the FOSS default X driver
(Modesetting DIX), along with the Nouveau kernel driver it depends on. No
proprietary NVidia or other non-Debian software is required for competent Xorg
operation. I have other NVidia GPUs in other PCs, all newer than yours, and all
using the very same modesetting DIX driver.
[...]

Thank you, Dr./Mr Miata, for posting to my thread to inform me.

Much appreciated.

Can I make a request please? Could I send you a reply from the other thread at:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/04/msg00512.html
Subject:
Can the latest stable Debian be compelled to run in vesa mode, rather
than the motherboard graphics card, if the said card doesn't have
drivers available? How?

...as to address some specific questions of Dr./Mr. Cater, I created
that thread.

I am really interested as I find my problems getting solved.

Best.
Rajib

Re: [?]List of Best Debian-approved laptops in India

[Susmita/Rajib]

On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:56:46 +, "Andrew M.A. Cater"
 wrote:
[QUOTE]
[...]
I followed through the screenshots you provided.
[...]
You can't ignore the source - you may have to apply it to a kernel.
[/QUOTE]


Okay, learnt. Thank you.


[QUOTE]
[...]
You have dependency errors. That's a bad sign.

[...]
WHY, oh, why are you trying to use Bullseye and kernel 5.10 at this stage?
[/QUOTE]

I used the example of knoppix. Regarding Bullseye and kernel 5.10,
that was knoppix.



[QUOTE]
[...]
First things first: you have a laptop which is 64 bit capable, I think.
You also have a laptop which is capable of using UEFI. Use them.
Use those options.
[...]
[/QUOTE]

64bit yes. For the problematic laptop, UEFI, no.


[QUOTE]
Download a CD/DVD including firmware if that's what it takes -
First link is CD which may be enough, second is DVD

https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/amd64/iso-cd/firmware-10.9.0-amd64-netinst.iso
https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/amd64/iso-dvd/firmware-10.9.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso
[...]
[/QUOTE]

> Presently, I used the Debian grub to run knoppix, either as iso by
> loopback loop, or with iso extracted and am presently using knoppix
> for the HCL Me laptop.
>
> Please tell me if there is a possibility of using Debian to use vesa
> (or fbdev) from grub, although fbdev is deprecated, vesa runs fine.
> But a little stressful for the motherboard and CPU. Heat up.
>
> Best,
> Rajib


[QUOTE]
Try the above with current Debian 10 and a text mode expert install _first_
Do NOT install a graphical environment until you can get the laptop working
in text mode. At that point, you may have to deal with installing nouveau
or, possibly, the Nvidia proprietary drivers.

You will almost certainly need the build-essential tools to build Nvidia
code if you use the proprietary drivers.

Please try taking this single step by single step and explaining what
errors you are getting as you go. For large amounts of logs, you might
need to use pastebin.

Hope this helps, all the best,

Andy C.
[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Dr. Cater.

Until recently, Debian 10.8 was the most recent one. So I had used that one.

One question: After I have installed in the text mode, what codes do I
use for apt-get, or to be precise, like synaptic search in GUI, how do
I search for the specific nvidia drivers for "GeForce 8200M G
[MCP79]"?What would be equivalent apt-get lines?

Best.
Rajib

Re: [?]List of Best Debian-approved laptops in India

[Susmita/Rajib]

Perhaps these lines in the post:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=10=149280 were missed.

[quote="bkpsusmitaa"]Have been referring to the page:
https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn#OfficialDocumentation
[...]
Indian vendors have been contacted by email/SMS or called over phone.
Remain Incommunicado.
https://www.debian.org/distrib/pre-installed#in
[/quote]

Best,
Rajib

Re: [?]List of Best Debian-approved laptops in India

[Felix Miata]

Susmita/Rajib composed on 2021-04-18 20:01 (UTC+0530):

> Vesa doesn't work in Debian Buster 10.8, by my blocking Nouveau
> through grub.cfg that halts the nvidia graphics chip. The string
> 'xmodule=vesa' doesn't work either.

> Debian nvidia drivers, as ever, fails to install.

> The nvidia drivers 64bit downloaded from nvidia website don't work.
> The problematic Hardware:
> (1) VGA compatible controller : NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 [GeForce
> 8200M G] (rev b1) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller])   
> 
I have a slightly older version of what you have:
# inxi -GISay
System:
  Host: mcp61 Kernel: 4.19.0-16-amd64 x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 8.3.0
...
  Desktop: Trinity R14.0.9 tk: Qt 3.5.0 info: kicker wm: Twin 3.0 vt: 7
  dm: TDM Distro: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster)
Graphics:
  Device-1: NVIDIA C61 [GeForce 6150SE nForce 430] vendor: Micro-Star MSI
  driver: nouveau v: kernel bus-ID: 00:0d.0 chip-ID: 10de:03d0 class-ID: 0300
  Display: x11 server: X.Org 1.20.4 driver: loaded: modesetting
  unloaded: fbdev,vesa alternate: nouveau,nv display-ID: :0 screens: 1
  Screen-1: 0 s-res: 1680x1050 s-dpi: 108 s-size: 395x246mm (15.6x9.7")
  s-diag: 465mm (18.3")
  Monitor-1: VGA-1 res: 1680x1050 hz: 60 dpi: 90 size: 474x296mm (18.7x11.7")
  diag: 559mm (22")
  OpenGL: renderer: llvmpipe (LLVM 7.0 128 bits) v: 3.3 Mesa 18.3.6
  compat-v: 3.1 direct render: Yes
Info:...Shell: Bash v: 5.0.3 running-in: konsole inxi: 3.3.04

As above indicated, it works with Debian 10, using the FOSS default X driver
(Modesetting DIX), along with the Nouveau kernel driver it depends on. No
proprietary NVidia or other non-Debian software is required for competent Xorg
operation. I have other NVidia GPUs in other PCs, all newer than yours, and all
using the very same modesetting DIX driver.

No one wants the dismal performance of the VESA driver except for 
troubleshooting
purposes.

The Nouveau DDX driver is an old technology alternative to the Modesetting DIX
that may or may not do any better on old NVidia IGPs like ours, which I find
unnecessary.

For GUI mode installation purposes, it's possible you might need a kernel 
command
line option "nomodeset", intended mainly for troubleshooting, but scant few need
it once Debian is installed.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [?]List of Best Debian-approved laptops in India

[Stefan Monnier]

> I'd recommend to find a vendor that is shipping hardware with a linux
> distribution pre-installed,

Seconded.  Not only it minimizes the problems you'll have when
installing Debian on it but it additionally helps promote those vendors
who do provide GNU/Linux support: vote with your wallet.


Stefan "writing this on a Librem mini"

Re: [?]List of Best Debian-approved laptops in India

[deloptes]

Susmita/Rajib wrote:

> But in the end. may the two laptops, HP and HCL, be please ignored.

It is not about the make, but about the model. In general I recommend
choosing the business line if possible (perhaps buy used one), but still
only experience with the hardware can be the right. For example Dell
Latitude 5440 excellent, 3440 poor. HP ProBook is also not bad

Re: [?]List of Best Debian-approved laptops in India

[Susmita/Rajib]

On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 15:19:36 +, "Andrew M.A. Cater"
 wrote:
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: [?]List of Best Debian-approved laptops in India
> From: "Andrew M.A. Cater" 
> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 15:19:36 +
> Message-id: <[] 20210418151936.ga12...@einval.com>
> In-reply-to: <[]
> caeg4czu0mqrkfzbjypl_wzutdouojmmrw509tw82hp0gcyu...@mail.gmail.com>

[...]
>
> Please do not do this. Please do not refer across to the forums as that
> means chasing away from the mailing lists. Please do ask questions here.

Thank you for replying to my post, Mr. Cater. I consider such
reportage my honesty and empathy. I won't have my support-providers
waste man-hours doubly, both there and here. I shall share the links
there and here.

> [...]
> The forum post you have made is not very clear. Most laptops require some
> firmware. Most laptops require non-free WiFi firmware. An increasing number
> also require non-free video drivers. This is, unfortunately, to be
> expected:
> the market share for Linux is small - even where manufacturers pre-install
> Linux - like Lenovo - we may have to install non-free drivers.
>
[...]

Yes, I am pained to find GNU FSF failing.

> [...]
> _Which_ model of HP laptop?
> What does the output of lspci show?
> If you use grep to search the output of dmesg, what does it show for
> firmware / video chipset and so on?

HP laptop issue was partially solved by these two posts:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/10/msg00493.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/10/msg00497.html

Debian wifi icon gauges the wireless signal through the card alright,
but fails to use internet through it. However, Knoppix is able to use
the wifi card for internet.

May the issue be _ignored_ therefore.

>> Vesa doesn't work in Debian Buster 10.8, by my blocking Nouveau
>> through grub.cfg that halts the nvidia graphics chip. The string
>> 'xmodule=vesa' doesn't work either.
>
> Don't do that, then. If you install the main Debian installer [using text
> mode
>  only if necessary) - an expert install does the laptop display anything?
> The text mode installer and the graphical installer both use basic drivers
> that should work with most chipsets.

I created a separate thread on this issue, posting the problem in
details and then asking for a HowTo:
Can the latest stable Debian be compelled to run in vesa mode, rather
than the motherboard graphics card, if the said card doesn't have
drivers available? How?

So please bear with me until then.

But in the end. may the two laptops, HP and HCL, be please ignored.

Please peruse the links that have been provided and suggest a good
laptop to buy.

Mr.  Kushal Kumaran  has mentioned two laptops
from India. I shall talk to him

Thank you,

Re: [?]List of Best Debian-approved laptops in India

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 08:01:46PM +0530, Susmita/Rajib wrote:
> My illustrious List Leaders and solution providers,
> 
> My references are here:
> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=10=149280
> {to avoid repetition)

Rajib,

Please do not do this. Please do not refer across to the forums as that 
means chasing away from the mailing lists. Please do ask questions here.

The forum post you have made is not very clear. Most laptops require some
firmware. Most laptops require non-free WiFi firmware. An increasing number
also require non-free video drivers. This is, unfortunately, to be expected:
the market share for Linux is small - even where manufacturers pre-install
Linux - like Lenovo - we may have to install non-free drivers.

> 
> Need your advice and suggestion on the issue. The laptops that I have
> are problematic under Debian. Some modified Debian installation like
> Knoppix have sorted out some problems that exist with Pure Debian,
> like wifi in HP and vesa in HCL Me.
> 

_Which_ model of HP laptop? 
What does the output of lspci show?
If you use grep to search the output of dmesg, what does it show for
firmware / video chipset and so on?

> Vesa doesn't work in Debian Buster 10.8, by my blocking Nouveau
> through grub.cfg that halts the nvidia graphics chip. The string
> 'xmodule=vesa' doesn't work either.

Don't do that, then. If you install the main Debian installer [using text mode
 only if necessary) - an expert install does the laptop display anything?
The text mode installer and the graphical installer both use basic drivers
that should work with most chipsets.

> 
> Debian nvidia drivers, as ever, fails to install.

How did you install them - what procedure did you follow?
> 
> The nvidia drivers 64bit downloaded from nvidia website don't work.
> The problematic Hardware:
> (1) VGA compatible controller : NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 [GeForce
> 8200M G] (rev b1) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller])
> (2) Audio device : NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 High Definition Audio (rev b1)
> 

If you use the proprietary drivers, then you will need to follow particular
steps. The drivers you need are referenced here: 
https://packages.debian.org/buster/nvidia-legacy-340xx-driver

> So information would be welcome. This time I wish to buy a laptop that
> shall not be DND, but Debian approved.
> 
> Regards,
> Rajib
> Etc.
> 

All best, as ever,

Andy Cater

Re: [?]List of Best Debian-approved laptops in India

[Kushal Kumaran]

On Sun, Apr 18 2021 at 08:01:46 PM, "Susmita/Rajib"  
wrote:
> My illustrious List Leaders and solution providers,
>
> My references are here:
> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=10=149280
> {to avoid repetition)
>
> Need your advice and suggestion on the issue. The laptops that I have
> are problematic under Debian. Some modified Debian installation like
> Knoppix have sorted out some problems that exist with Pure Debian,
> like wifi in HP and vesa in HCL Me.
>
> Vesa doesn't work in Debian Buster 10.8, by my blocking Nouveau
> through grub.cfg that halts the nvidia graphics chip. The string
> 'xmodule=vesa' doesn't work either.
>
> Debian nvidia drivers, as ever, fails to install.
>
> The nvidia drivers 64bit downloaded from nvidia website don't work.
> The problematic Hardware:
> (1) VGA compatible controller : NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 [GeForce
> 8200M G] (rev b1) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller])
> (2) Audio device : NVIDIA Corporation MCP79 High Definition Audio (rev b1)
>
> So information would be welcome. This time I wish to buy a laptop that
> shall not be DND, but Debian approved.
>

I'd recommend to find a vendor that is shipping hardware with a linux
distribution pre-installed, and pick a device that does not have nvidia
hardware, assuming you don't need any specific nvidia feature.  When I
last bought a laptop in India (~2016), it was a Dell Vostro 3458 with
Ubuntu preinstalled.  My current hardware is a Dell Precision 7520,
again with Ubuntu preinstalled.  Both run debian with no difficulty.  I
have no recent experience with running nvidia hardware.  The Vostro has
Intel and the Precision has Intel/AMD.

-- 
regards,
kushal

Re: list package version if installed (scriptable)

[Andy Smith]

Hi Jim,

On Thu, Jan 07, 2021 at 08:12:52AM -0500, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> What is a script'able way to list a pkg version (or nothing if it is not
> installed)?

$ dpkg-query --showformat '${Version}\t${Status}\n' --show coreutils 
8.23-4  install ok installed
$ dpkg-query --showformat '${Version}\t${Status}\n' --show coreutils | awk 
'/installed/ { print $1 }'
8.23-4
$ dpkg-query --showformat '${Version}\t${Status}\n' --show wowbagger
dpkg-query: no packages found matching wowbagger
$ echo $?
1

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: list package version if installed (scriptable)

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Jan 07, 2021 at 08:12:52AM -0500, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> What is a script'able way to list a pkg version (or nothing if it is not
> installed)?
> 
> +1 for POSIX compatibility.

unicorn:~$ dpkg-query --show --showformat '${Version}\n' bash
5.0-4
unicorn:~$ dpkg-query --show --showformat '${Version}\n' gnome-core
dpkg-query: no packages found matching gnome-core
unicorn:~$ dpkg-query --show --showformat '${Version}\n' gnome-core 2>/dev/null
unicorn:~$ 

Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Celejar]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:02:49 +0300
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Lu, 06 mai 19, 14:16:13, Celejar wrote:

...

> > I'm no expert, but I struck out in my search for a free,
> > standards-based email service beyond the giants. I have a number of GMX
> > accounts, and while they're not quite Google / Yahoo / Microsoft,
> > they're still too big, scary and ad-centric for me.
> > 
> > My favorite is a Zoho account that I have, but when I checked recently
> > into adding further accounts, I think that new free accounts don't get
> > POP / IMAP / SMTP service (my old account seems to be grandfathered in).
> 
> You want an "eierlegende Wollmilchsau"[1], i.e. a free (as in beer), 
> quality, privacy conscious e-mail service, that offers IMAP and SMTP. 
> 
> Please do let us know if you ever find it... (I mean it).

;) As I indicated, such things used to be available, e.g., my
grandfathered-in Zoho account. And, of course, Lavabit ...

Celejar

Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[andreimpopescu]

On Lu, 06 mai 19, 14:16:13, Celejar wrote:
> On Mon, 6 May 2019 17:18:31 +0200 (CEST)
> Pierre Frenkiel  wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 6 May 2019, Celejar wrote:
> > 
> > > I once looked into ProtonMail, but IIUC, there's no POP3 / IMAP / SMTP
> > > support in the free tier, and even in the paid tiers, standards-based
> > > email requires running some sort of proprietary application called
> > > "ProtonMail Bridge" on my machine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if this
> > > is correct, I'll pass.
> > 
> >thank you for this useful information. It will avoid loosing time.
> >Have you any idea of something else?
> 
> I'm no expert, but I struck out in my search for a free,
> standards-based email service beyond the giants. I have a number of GMX
> accounts, and while they're not quite Google / Yahoo / Microsoft,
> they're still too big, scary and ad-centric for me.
> 
> My favorite is a Zoho account that I have, but when I checked recently
> into adding further accounts, I think that new free accounts don't get
> POP / IMAP / SMTP service (my old account seems to be grandfathered in).

You want an "eierlegende Wollmilchsau"[1], i.e. a free (as in beer), 
quality, privacy conscious e-mail service, that offers IMAP and SMTP. 

Please do let us know if you ever find it... (I mean it).

For those willing to pay Kolab Now seems interesting. 

[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eierlegende_Wollmilchsau

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[andreimpopescu]

On Lu, 06 mai 19, 10:28:12, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Mon, 6 May 2019 18:37:36 +1000
> David  wrote:
> 
> >I think the proportion of people providing answers here who do care
> >would be significantly higher than the general population though.
> >That's why I was concerned enough to respond, and why I wrote
> >people *here* :)
> 
> Fair point.
> 
> I would contend though, that the number of people that do care is still
> less than 50%, even if not by much.  I have no data to support that, it's
> just my gut feeling based on the number of gmail (and similar) email
> addresses that are in use here.

The lists are publicly archived, so the privacy benefits would be 
minimal.

I also don't want to expose my other e-mail addresses, for privacy and 
spam reasons ;)

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: List attachments

[andreimpopescu]

On Lu, 06 mai 19, 08:57:36, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> 
> > For pastebin purposes within Debian, please use: https://paste.debian.net/
> 
> FWIW, I simply dislike all those "put your attachment on the web and
> a URL to it": when I later search the web and find a match in
> paste.debian.net or pastebin or whatnot the match is kind of worthless
> unless I can find the message that references it (which all too often
> fails, for some reason).
> 
> So I'm left with the knowledge that "someone had the same problem" but
> I can't find the corresponding discussion (and possible
> explanation/solution).  Frustrating.
 
pastebins also expire. Unless someone quotes the interesting part in a 
reply it's often difficult to know whether you are experiencing the same 
problem.

Whenever possible please do keep messages self-contained.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Brad Rogers]

On Mon, 6 May 2019 08:53:56 -0400
Kenneth Parker  wrote:

Hello Kenneth,

>I don't notice any Advertising on ProtonMail.

The 'cost' will not necessarily be advertising.  Data-mining all emails
in and out of the account is far more likely and, potentially, more
lucrative (for the miner, obviously).

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
Just stop and take a second
U & Ur Hand - P!nk


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Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Celejar]

On Mon, 6 May 2019 17:18:31 +0200 (CEST)
Pierre Frenkiel  wrote:

> On Mon, 6 May 2019, Celejar wrote:
> 
> > I once looked into ProtonMail, but IIUC, there's no POP3 / IMAP / SMTP
> > support in the free tier, and even in the paid tiers, standards-based
> > email requires running some sort of proprietary application called
> > "ProtonMail Bridge" on my machine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if this
> > is correct, I'll pass.
> >
> > Celejar
> >
> 
>thank you for this useful information. It will avoid loosing time.
>Have you any idea of something else?

I'm no expert, but I struck out in my search for a free,
standards-based email service beyond the giants. I have a number of GMX
accounts, and while they're not quite Google / Yahoo / Microsoft,
they're still too big, scary and ad-centric for me.

My favorite is a Zoho account that I have, but when I checked recently
into adding further accounts, I think that new free accounts don't get
POP / IMAP / SMTP service (my old account seems to be grandfathered in).

Another option I've been considering is using the free email service
provided by my (web) hosting provider. It's not quite free, since the
hosting costs money, but that's a sunk cost, and it's very little to
begin with. I don't know, however, how good the service is.

Celejar

Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Pierre Frenkiel]

On Mon, 6 May 2019, Celejar wrote:


I once looked into ProtonMail, but IIUC, there's no POP3 / IMAP / SMTP
support in the free tier, and even in the paid tiers, standards-based
email requires running some sort of proprietary application called
"ProtonMail Bridge" on my machine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if this
is correct, I'll pass.

Celejar



  thank you for this useful information. It will avoid loosing time.
  Have you any idea of something else?

best regards,
--
Pierre Frenkiel

Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Celejar]

On Mon, 6 May 2019 08:53:56 -0400
Kenneth Parker  wrote:

> On Mon, May 6, 2019, 7:20 AM Pierre Frenkiel 
> wrote:
> 
> > >>  I have no data to support that,
> > it's
> > >> just my gut feeling based on the number of gmail (and similar) email
> > >> addresses that are in use here.
> > >
> > >  does that mean that there is something else, i.e.  a "free" mail
> > provider?
> >
> 
> I am partial to ProtonMail.
> 
> >
> >I was not clear enough. I didn't mean "gratis" or "free as in beer", but
> >non commercial (as opposed to gmail, provided by Google)
> >
> 
> I don't notice any Advertising on ProtonMail.

I once looked into ProtonMail, but IIUC, there's no POP3 / IMAP / SMTP
support in the free tier, and even in the paid tiers, standards-based
email requires running some sort of proprietary application called
"ProtonMail Bridge" on my machine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if this
is correct, I'll pass.

Celejar

Re: List attachments

[Stefan Monnier]

> No, please don't use pastebin.com

Agreed.

> People here care about software freedom. So please don't
> recommend (here) non-free software providers with their stupid
> logins, cookies, tracking, terms-of-service, javascript requirements
> and who knows or cares what else when we have a free-software
> service written by a Debian developer that does exactly what is
> needed without attempting to monetise its users.

That, too.

> For pastebin purposes within Debian, please use: https://paste.debian.net/

FWIW, I simply dislike all those "put your attachment on the web and
a URL to it": when I later search the web and find a match in
paste.debian.net or pastebin or whatnot the match is kind of worthless
unless I can find the message that references it (which all too often
fails, for some reason).

So I'm left with the knowledge that "someone had the same problem" but
I can't find the corresponding discussion (and possible
explanation/solution).  Frustrating.


Stefan

Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Kenneth Parker]

On Mon, May 6, 2019, 7:20 AM Pierre Frenkiel 
wrote:

> >>  I have no data to support that,
> it's
> >> just my gut feeling based on the number of gmail (and similar) email
> >> addresses that are in use here.
> >
> >  does that mean that there is something else, i.e.  a "free" mail
> provider?
>

I am partial to ProtonMail.

>
>I was not clear enough. I didn't mean "gratis" or "free as in beer", but
>non commercial (as opposed to gmail, provided by Google)
>

I don't notice any Advertising on ProtonMail.

>
> best regards,
> --
> Pierre Frenkiel
>

Kenneth Parker

>

Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Brad Rogers]

On Mon, 6 May 2019 13:20:31 +0200 (CEST)
Pierre Frenkiel  wrote:

Hello Pierre,

>   I was not clear enough. I didn't mean "gratis" or "free as in beer",
> but

I understood that, but thanks for the clarification.

To answer your question:
>  does that mean that there is something else, i.e.  a "free" mail
> provider?

Almost certainly not.  A price (of one sort or another) has to be paid.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
Two sides to every story
Public Image - Public Image Ltd


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Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Pierre Frenkiel]

On Mon, 6 May 2019, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:


On Mon, 6 May 2019, Brad Rogers wrote:


 I have no data to support that, it's
just my gut feeling based on the number of gmail (and similar) email
addresses that are in use here.


 does that mean that there is something else, i.e.  a "free" mail provider?

best regards,
--
Pierre Frenkiel


  I was not clear enough. I didn't mean "gratis" or "free as in beer", but
  non commercial (as opposed to gmail, provided by Google)

best regards,
--
Pierre Frenkiel

Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Pierre Frenkiel]

On Mon, 6 May 2019, Brad Rogers wrote:


 I have no data to support that, it's
just my gut feeling based on the number of gmail (and similar) email
addresses that are in use here.


  does that mean that there is something else, i.e.  a "free" mail provider?

best regards,
--
Pierre Frenkiel

Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Brad Rogers]

On Mon, 6 May 2019 18:37:36 +1000
David  wrote:

Hello David,

>I think the proportion of people providing answers here who do care
>would be significantly higher than the general population though.
>That's why I was concerned enough to respond, and why I wrote
>people *here* :)

Fair point.

I would contend though, that the number of people that do care is still
less than 50%, even if not by much.  I have no data to support that, it's
just my gut feeling based on the number of gmail (and similar) email
addresses that are in use here.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
You only see me for the clothes that I wear
Public Image - Public Image Ltd


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Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[David]

On Mon, 6 May 2019 at 17:22, Brad Rogers  wrote:
>
> On Mon, 6 May 2019 09:26:00 +1000 David  wrote:
>
> Hello David,
>
> >People here care about software freedom.
>
> Some do, yes.  Far more simply don't care:

I think the proportion of people providing answers here who do care
would be significantly higher than the general population though.
That's why I was concerned enough to respond, and why I wrote
people *here* :)

> You only have to look at how
> successful surveillance companies (google, facebook, twitter, et al)
> have become; with people willingly, even eagerly, handing over their
> data to be traded in a highly lucrative market.

Indeed.

> However, it was not my intent to recommend a particular provider, just
> give an example.  Also, until it came up in this thread, I was not aware
> Debian provide a similar pasting service.

No worries, I'm glad you are aware now :)

Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Brad Rogers]

On Mon, 6 May 2019 09:26:00 +1000
David  wrote:

Hello David,

>People here care about software freedom.

Some do, yes.  Far more simply don't care:  You only have to look at how
successful surveillance companies (google, facebook, twitter, et al)
have become; with people willingly, even eagerly, handing over their
data to be traded in a highly lucrative market.

However, it was not my intent to recommend a particular provider, just
give an example.  Also, until it came up in this thread, I was not aware
Debian provide a similar pasting service.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
Keep your drink just give 'em the money
U & Ur Hand - P!nk


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Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Rick Thomas]

> On May 5, 2019, at 4:26 PM, David  wrote:
> 
> For pastebin purposes within Debian, please use: https://paste.debian.net/

Thanks, David.  This sound like exactly what I need.
Rick

Re: List attachments

[Rick Thomas]

Thanks, Carl!  The free WordPress account sounds very interesting.  I’ll check 
it out.
Rick

> On May 5, 2019, at 4:28 AM, Carl Fink  wrote:
> 
> On 5/5/19 6:13 AM, Rick Thomas wrote:
>> I used to have my own webserver, but the machine I was running it on died.
>> 
>> What is “pastebin”?  Is it available to everyone?
>> 
>> Enjoy!
>> Rick
> 
> Places you can put stuff for others to see, besides Pastebin:
> 
> 1)Many ISP accounts give some free web space, e.g. Panix
> 
> 2)A free Google account allows document sharing. So does a free Microsoft
> account. Like them or hate them, most of us have one for convenience's sake.
> 
> 3)You can create a free WordPress account easily. Even if you only blog
> every decade or two, you get the ability to upload files and give them URLs.
> 
> 4)Plenty of others
> 
> -- 
> Carl Fink   nitpick...@nitpicking.com
> 
> Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com.  Reviews!  Observations!
> 

Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[David]

On Sun, 5 May 2019 at 20:31, Brad Rogers  wrote:
> On Sun, 5 May 2019 03:13:46 -0700 Rick Thomas  wrote:
>
> >What is “pastebin”?  Is it available to everyone?
>
> Yes, it's available to all.  pastebin.com

Hi.

No, please don't use pastebin.com

I won't read anything posted to that site, and I doubt that I'm
the only person here with this view.

People here care about software freedom. So please don't
recommend (here) non-free software providers with their stupid
logins, cookies, tracking, terms-of-service, javascript requirements
and who knows or cares what else when we have a free-software
service written by a Debian developer that does exactly what is
needed without attempting to monetise its users.

For pastebin purposes within Debian, please use: https://paste.debian.net/

Re: List attachments

[Carl Fink]

On 5/5/19 6:13 AM, Rick Thomas wrote:

I used to have my own webserver, but the machine I was running it on died.

What is “pastebin”?  Is it available to everyone?

Enjoy!
Rick


Places you can put stuff for others to see, besides Pastebin:

1)Many ISP accounts give some free web space, e.g. Panix

2)A free Google account allows document sharing. So does a free Microsoft
account. Like them or hate them, most of us have one for convenience's sake.

3)You can create a free WordPress account easily. Even if you only blog
every decade or two, you get the ability to upload files and give them URLs.

4)Plenty of others

--
Carl Fink   nitpick...@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com.  Reviews!  Observations!

Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Brad Rogers]

On Sun, 5 May 2019 03:13:46 -0700
Rick Thomas  wrote:

Hello Rick,

>What is “pastebin”?  Is it available to everyone?

A place to share (predominantly) code snippets and the like for the
purposes of critique or garnering advice about ways to improve said code.

Yes, it's available to all.  pastebin.com

Pastebin has the advantage that whatever you upload gets line numbers
attached to the display not the code itself), so people can point you to
exactly the right place.  There are various restrictions based on type of
account you have (unregistered, free, and so on).  But aren't there
always?

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
But they didn't tell him the first two didn't count
Tin Soldiers - Stiff Little Fingers


pgpMANlFVQNdP.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Dan Purgert]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Rick Thomas wrote:
> Thanks for the reply!
>
>> On May 5, 2019, at 2:55 AM, Brad Rogers  wrote:
>> 
>> There are other places things can be put (own web site, pastebin, etc.)
>
> I used to have my own webserver, but the machine I was running it on died.
>
> What is “pastebin”?  Is it available to everyone?

It's a style of website that allows you to paste text and others to read
it.  For example, http://termbin.com or http://paste.debian.net, etc.

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hT6TqBhE9Yw5UdrIBbWS45l9cp19Ogj3npq7WZEvfyhFhIAJgs4RmYVBXk5xekF6
6UQd/gstrV3FgP0nNtcNTMG/UPaOecg6LfT/CM/K91aLKAkMDgmT4S84iSB4PmRX
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MGSIDMB4VUm/PrWFOFso7tL3dwK4BA==
=/JWl
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-- 
|_|O|_| 
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: List attachments (was: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender)

[Rick Thomas]

Thanks for the reply!

> On May 5, 2019, at 2:55 AM, Brad Rogers  wrote:
> 
> There are other places things can be put (own web site, pastebin, etc.)

I used to have my own webserver, but the machine I was running it on died.

What is “pastebin”?  Is it available to everyone?

Enjoy!
Rick

Re: List for debian 10 testing

[Brian]

On Fri 05 Apr 2019 at 11:08:12 +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:

> I am about to install a fresh download of Debian 10 on to a netbook and
> was wondering which lists I could perhaps also join to help with
> reporting problems, bugs or hopefully report things are working fine.
> 
> I was thinking https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/
> 
> But maybe there is a more appropriate list. 

debian-boot for successful (or non-successful) installation. For
problems on a running system use the BTS.

-- 
Brian.

Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 08:50:48PM +0200, Rodolfo Medina wrote:

[...]

> Thanks to all who helped.  I adopted Tomas' solution:

Hey, glad you liked it :-)

Cheers
- -- t
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RzwAn1i96PaVqgvJD15R8IzBooAh7x2b
=Zr9+
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[Rodolfo Medina]

Rodolfo Medina  writes:

> Suppose I have a file made by a list of names and surnames, e.g.:
>
> Arvo Part
> Harold Pinter
> Lucio Battisti
> Antonio Amurri
> Eduardo De Filippo
> Eduardo De Filippo
>
> and that I want them listed all on one line, separated by a comma and without
> duplicates, i.e.:
>
> Arvo Part, Harold Pinter, Lucio Battisti, Antonio Amurri, Eduardo De Filippo
>
> How can I do that with proper Unix commands?


Thanks to all who helped.  I adopted Tomas' solution:

perl -e 'while() {chop; push(@result, $_) unless $seen{$_}++;} 
print(join(", ", @result), "\n");' < authors.auth > authors.txt

It seems to suit my needs.

Cheers,

Rodolfo

Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[Bob McGowan]

On 04/29/2018 03:45 PM, David Margerison wrote:

On 30 April 2018 at 04:12, Antonio A. Rendina  wrote:

If you want to improve your bash skills you can read:
http://www.tldp.org/LDP/Bash-Beginners-Guide/html/

I suggest that to avoid poor and ancient, it would be
better to read current documents written by active experts.

http://mywiki.wooledge.org/
http://wiki.bash-hackers.org/

And, along the same lines, why do all the solutions I saw us I/O 
redirection in the shell to get input to commands that, at least in 
modern versions, can all read a file directly?


Bob

Re: [OT - long running shows] Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 29 April 2018 21:28:56 Richard Hector wrote:

> On 30/04/18 12:56, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Sunday 29 April 2018 20:27:56 Richard Hector wrote:
> >> On 30/04/18 10:29, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> The Simpsons, who just passed Gunsmoke as the longest running
> >>> program ever.
> >>
> >> I can't figure out what criteria are required to make that work.
> >>
> >> Richard
> >
> > Number of episodes aired. Gunsmoke ran for IIRC 22 years, 861
> > episodes. Yesterdays Simpsons made 862 episodes. Gunsmoke started in
> > b, shot with image orthicon cameras, switched to vidicon's about
> > the same time I was helping make the vidicon cameras that went down
> > into the mohole on the Trieste in Fed '60. Yeah, I'm that old an old
> > fart. :)
>
> CBS News: 16,400+
> General Hospital: 14,000+
>
Yes, true, but those are daily, this was once a week.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest-running_United_States_te
>levision_series
>
> Other countries don't necessarily seem to count episodes, but also
> have long-running series.
>
> Richard



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: [OT - long running shows] Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[Richard Hector]

On 30/04/18 12:56, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 29 April 2018 20:27:56 Richard Hector wrote:
> 
>> On 30/04/18 10:29, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> The Simpsons, who just passed Gunsmoke as the longest running
>>> program ever.
>>
>> I can't figure out what criteria are required to make that work.
>>
>> Richard
> 
> Number of episodes aired. Gunsmoke ran for IIRC 22 years, 861 episodes. 
> Yesterdays Simpsons made 862 episodes. Gunsmoke started in b, shot 
> with image orthicon cameras, switched to vidicon's about the same time I 
> was helping make the vidicon cameras that went down into the mohole on 
> the Trieste in Fed '60. Yeah, I'm that old an old fart. :)

CBS News: 16,400+
General Hospital: 14,000+

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest-running_United_States_television_series

Other countries don't necessarily seem to count episodes, but also have
long-running series.

Richard



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [OT - long running shows] Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 29 April 2018 20:27:56 Richard Hector wrote:

> On 30/04/18 10:29, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > The Simpsons, who just passed Gunsmoke as the longest running
> > program ever.
>
> I can't figure out what criteria are required to make that work.
>
> Richard

Number of episodes aired. Gunsmoke ran for IIRC 22 years, 861 episodes. 
Yesterdays Simpsons made 862 episodes. Gunsmoke started in b, shot 
with image orthicon cameras, switched to vidicon's about the same time I 
was helping make the vidicon cameras that went down into the mohole on 
the Trieste in Fed '60. Yeah, I'm that old an old fart. :)


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

[OT - long running shows] Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[Richard Hector]

On 30/04/18 10:29, Gene Heskett wrote:
> The Simpsons, who just passed Gunsmoke as the longest running program ever.

I can't figure out what criteria are required to make that work.

Richard



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[David Margerison]

On 30 April 2018 at 04:12, Antonio A. Rendina  wrote:
>
> If you want to improve your bash skills you can read:
> http://www.tldp.org/LDP/Bash-Beginners-Guide/html/

I suggest that to avoid poor and ancient, it would be
better to read current documents written by active experts.

http://mywiki.wooledge.org/
http://wiki.bash-hackers.org/

Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 29 April 2018 16:34:18 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 08:06:47PM +, Curt wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Not knowing anything I came up with (after some research):
> >
> > sort -u < test.txt | tr '\n' ','
> >
> > No sed.
>
> If you don't need the space after the comma then yes, sed is
> superfluous. Reminds me that half of my work as a programmer
> is done talking to the customer ;-)
>
> > My list has a comma at the beginning as well as at the end, though
> > (with no newline, either).
> >
> > But if we were going to the moon with this I would be economizing
> > that supernumerary process.
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> :-))
>
> Remember the size of the computers which went to the moon 1969. For
> tr there's space (without unicode). For sed... hmmm. For Perl? Hell,
> no!
>
For those that are too "new", that was AFAIK, and RCA 1802 with 4k of static 
ram. Very slow, and very low power. But having experience codeing for it in the 
later 70's, it was both stable and if the coder did his job, bulletproof. The 
program I wrote for it was still being used 20+ times a day by the production 
people at KRCR-tv in Redding CA, in 1996. Considering I wrote it in 1978, that 
18 years of non-stop use at a tv station, its like The Simpsons, who just 
passed Gunsmoke as the longest running program ever. I suspect it was still in 
use during the day of June 30th 2008, the last day we broadcast in NTSC. For a 
program that made liberal use of self-modifying code, I'd say that was amazing. 
Lets also say that the 1802's architecture was also different from every other 
cpu in the 8/16 bit field then. The TI 9900 was the only simpler one, stripping 
any internal register that addressed memory directly.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 08:06:47PM +, Curt wrote:

[...]

> Not knowing anything I came up with (after some research):
> 
> sort -u < test.txt | tr '\n' ',' 
> 
> No sed. 

If you don't need the space after the comma then yes, sed is
superfluous. Reminds me that half of my work as a programmer
is done talking to the customer ;-)

> My list has a comma at the beginning as well as at the end, though (with
> no newline, either).
> 
> But if we were going to the moon with this I would be economizing that
> supernumerary process.
> 
> ;-)

:-))

Remember the size of the computers which went to the moon 1969. For
tr there's space (without unicode). For sed... hmmm. For Perl? Hell,
no!

Cheers
- -- tomás
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=h88w
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Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[Curt]

On 2018-04-29,   wrote:
>
>> 
>> How can I do that with proper Unix commands?
>
> The "classical":
>
>   tomas@trotzki:/tmp$ cat foo
>   Arvo Part
>   Harold Pinter
>   Lucio Battisti
>   Antonio Amurri
>   Eduardo De Filippo
>   Eduardo De Filippo
>
> tomas@trotzki:/tmp$ sort -u < foo | sed -e 's/$/,/g' | tr '\n' ' '
> Antonio Amurri, Arvo Part, Eduardo De Filippo, Harold Pinter, Lucio Battisti, 
>
> Note that (a) the list ends with ", " (comma-space) and has no newline at
> the end, but I preferred to present a simple proto-solution easier for you
> to munge.
>
> The tr is there because sed goes line-wise and thus can't replace newlines.
> Except that it can; you pay for it, though [1], [2].
>

Not knowing anything I came up with (after some research):

sort -u < test.txt | tr '\n' ',' 

No sed. 

My list has a comma at the beginning as well as at the end, though (with
no newline, either).

But if we were going to the moon with this I would be economizing that
supernumerary process.

;-)

-- 
"Three prisoners were locked in a cell. When the largest of them finished his
food, he immediately ate the others. Too bad. An apostrophe in the right place
might have prevented a horrible crime." Joe Gunn

Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[Antonio A. Rendina]

On Sun, 2018-04-29 at 19:43 +0200, Rodolfo Medina wrote:
> Hi all.
> 
> Suppose I have a file made by a list of names and surnames, e.g.:
> 
> Arvo Part
> Harold Pinter
> Lucio Battisti
> Antonio Amurri
> Eduardo De Filippo
> Eduardo De Filippo
> 
> and that I want them listed all on one line, separated by a comma and without
> duplicates, i.e.:
> 
> Arvo Part, Harold Pinter, Lucio Battisti, Antonio Amurri, Eduardo De Filippo
> 
> How can I do that with proper Unix commands?
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> Rodolfo
> 

Sorry, forgot uniq...

cat list-file | uniq | sed s/$/,/ | tr '\n' ' '

Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 07:43:34PM +0200, Rodolfo Medina wrote:
> Hi all.
> 
> Suppose I have a file made by a list of names and surnames, e.g.:
> 
> Arvo Part
> Harold Pinter
> Lucio Battisti
> Antonio Amurri
> Eduardo De Filippo
> Eduardo De Filippo
> 
> and that I want them listed all on one line, separated by a comma and without
> duplicates, i.e.:
> 
> Arvo Part, Harold Pinter, Lucio Battisti, Antonio Amurri, Eduardo De Filippo
> 
> How can I do that with proper Unix commands?

The "classical":

  tomas@trotzki:/tmp$ cat foo
  Arvo Part
  Harold Pinter
  Lucio Battisti
  Antonio Amurri
  Eduardo De Filippo
  Eduardo De Filippo

tomas@trotzki:/tmp$ sort -u < foo | sed -e 's/$/,/g' | tr '\n' ' '
Antonio Amurri, Arvo Part, Eduardo De Filippo, Harold Pinter, Lucio Battisti, 

Note that (a) the list ends with ", " (comma-space) and has no newline at
the end, but I preferred to present a simple proto-solution easier for you
to munge.

The tr is there because sed goes line-wise and thus can't replace newlines.
Except that it can; you pay for it, though [1], [2].

Finally, all this assumes that you're OK with the result being sorted
lexicographically: if you want to keep the original order, you'll probably
have to resort to awk or perl (unless you want to earn some obfuscated
Unix ninja price or something ;-)

For a Perl example which doesn't sort (sorry for the long line):

  tomas@trotzki:/tmp$ perl -e 'while() {chop; push(@result, $_) unless 
$seen{$_}++;} print(join(", ", @result), "\n");' < foo
Arvo Part, Harold Pinter, Lucio Battisti, Antonio Amurri, Eduardo De Filippo

Note that the sort/sed/tr example above might cope well with a file
wich doesn't fit in your RAM, while the perl example... less so.
Times have changed :-)

(to be fair, the quoted examples below seem also to rely on sucking
all the whole file into a (potentially giant) line).

Cheers
[1] 
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1251999/how-can-i-replace-a-newline-n-using-sed
[2] 
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/114943/can-sed-replace-new-line-characters

- -- tomás
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Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[Antonio A. Rendina]

On Sun, 2018-04-29 at 19:43 +0200, Rodolfo Medina wrote:
> Hi all.
> 
> Suppose I have a file made by a list of names and surnames, e.g.:
> 
> Arvo Part
> Harold Pinter
> Lucio Battisti
> Antonio Amurri
> Eduardo De Filippo
> Eduardo De Filippo
> 
> and that I want them listed all on one line, separated by a comma and
> without
> duplicates, i.e.:
> 
> Arvo Part, Harold Pinter, Lucio Battisti, Antonio Amurri, Eduardo De
> Filippo
> 
> How can I do that with proper Unix commands?
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> Rodolfo
> 

I would do something like that:
cat list-file | sed s/$/,/ | tr '\n' ' '

If you want to improve your bash skills you can read:
http://www.tldp.org/LDP/Bash-Beginners-Guide/html/

It is really useful.

-- 
Antonio

Re: List words separated by comma and without duplicates

[rhkramer]

Is this a homework assignment?

How many names are in the list?

On Sunday, April 29, 2018 01:43:34 PM Rodolfo Medina wrote:
> Suppose I have a file made by a list of names and surnames, e.g.:
> 
> Arvo Part
> Harold Pinter
> Lucio Battisti
> Antonio Amurri
> Eduardo De Filippo
> Eduardo De Filippo
> 
> and that I want them listed all on one line, separated by a comma and
> without duplicates, i.e.:
> 
> Arvo Part, Harold Pinter, Lucio Battisti, Antonio Amurri, Eduardo De
> Filippo
> 
> How can I do that with proper Unix commands?
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> Rodolfo

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote on 11/04/16 17:17:
> Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote on 11/04/16 14:39:
>> Maybe, this "one-liner" does what you want?
>>
>> aptitude -F "%p" search ~Astable| sort | \
>> (aptitude -F "%p" search ~Aunstable ~Atesting | sort -u | \
>>  comm -23 --nocheck-order /dev/fd/3 -) 3<&0
>>
> This needs a correction, if I'm not mistaken:
> 
> aptitude -F "%p" search ~i | sort | \
> (aptitude -F "%p" search ~Aunstable ~Atesting | sort -u | \
>  comm -23 --nocheck-order /dev/fd/3 -) 3<&0
> 
> All installed packages should be checked, not all available from stable.

Or just with aptitude:

aptitude -F "%p" search '!~Atesting!~Aunstable~i'

At least on my system it produces the same list of packages.

> 
>> All three archives have to be present with the names used above in your
>> sources.list file (that is, e.g., "unstable" and not "sid").

Regards,
jvp.

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

Jörg-Volker Peetz wrote on 11/04/16 14:39:
> Maybe, this "one-liner" does what you want?
> 
> aptitude -F "%p" search ~Astable| sort | \
> (aptitude -F "%p" search ~Aunstable ~Atesting | sort -u | \
>  comm -23 --nocheck-order /dev/fd/3 -) 3<&0
> 
This needs a correction, if I'm not mistaken:

aptitude -F "%p" search ~i | sort | \
(aptitude -F "%p" search ~Aunstable ~Atesting | sort -u | \
 comm -23 --nocheck-order /dev/fd/3 -) 3<&0

All installed packages should be checked, not all available from stable.

> All three archives have to be present with the names used above in your
> sources.list file (that is, e.g., "unstable" and not "sid").

Regards,
jvp.

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

Maybe, this "one-liner" does what you want?

aptitude -F "%p" search ~Astable| sort | \
(aptitude -F "%p" search ~Aunstable ~Atesting | sort -u | \
 comm -23 --nocheck-order /dev/fd/3 -) 3<&0

All three archives have to be present with the names used above in your
sources.list file (that is, e.g., "unstable" and not "sid").

Regards,
jvp.

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[kamaraju kusumanchi]

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 9:08 AM, Jonathan Dowland  wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 02, 2016 at 10:16:03PM -0400, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
>> Not sure if you read the entire thread, I ended up writing a script to
>> do this now. So, if you want to see packages that are currently
>> installed on your system but not part of jessie, you can do the
>> following.
>
> Thanks, I hadn't finished reading all the thread, but I'll be sure to look at
> your script closely.
>
> my idle thoughts are we should make sure that this is something that can 
> easily
> be determined using the standard tools on a Debian system, so I'm thinking 
> about
> what enhancements to propose and to which tools.
>

Yes, I agree. If standard tools can do it, it will be better. But
based on my experience with [1] , I decided to write one myself to get
things going.

[1] - https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=775771

-- 
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi | http://raju.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Blog

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[Mark Fletcher]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 10:58:32AM +0100, steve wrote:
> Le 03-11-2016, à 18:40:57 +0900, Mark Fletcher a écrit :
> 
> aptitude search ~Ajessie~i
> 
> meet your needs?
> 
> >>>
> >>>No, it does not. When I ran that command it did not produce any
> >>>output. What is it supposed to do?
> >>
> >I'm with Kamaraju on this, zero output. I also tried quoting the search
> >string in case bash was interfering, made no difference.
> 
> That's really strange. This works on all my Debian Jessie boxes but not
> on my raspbian's one.
> 

Ah -- false alarm at least on my machine, sorry for the confusion. I was 
getting zero output when I tried this the other day, but I had forgotten 
that at that time I had previously had a failed run of aptitude update 
due to network dodginess (if you'll pardon the technical term) on 
Wednesday night Asia time -- BTW was there another DNS DDoS attack then? 
Everything went horribly Pete Tong on Wednesday evening and I couldn't 
find anything wrong locally, and everything was fine again by yesterday 
morning.

However, I had forgotten that I had run aptitude update and failed while 
the network was bejiggered. So Aptitude's notion of what it had going on 
was in a mess. Once I realised this I re-ran aptitude update and now, 
aptitude search ~Ajessie~i produces results.

Mark

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[tomas]

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On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 03:48:23PM +0100, steve wrote:
> Le 03-11-2016, à 14:46:05 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :
> 
> >>>Thanks. That's for your Debian Jessie boxes. Is that the same for your
> >>>Raspbian box?
> >>
> >>cat sources.list
> >>deb http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/ jessie main contrib
> >>non-free rpi
> >>
> >>and
> >>
> >>cat sources.list.d/raspi.list deb
> >>http://archive.raspberrypi.org/debian/ jessie main ui
> >
> >Hm. So my hunch was wrong ;-)
> 
> Funny enough, replacing 'jessie' by 'stable' on the Pi box gives a
> result:
> 
> aptitude search ~Astable~i | wc -l
> 1088

That was the other half of my hunch: archive and "suite" are interchanged
somewhere. But where?

regards
- -- tomás
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Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[steve]

Le 03-11-2016, à 14:46:05 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :


>Thanks. That's for your Debian Jessie boxes. Is that the same for your
>Raspbian box?

cat sources.list
deb http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/ jessie main contrib
non-free rpi

and

cat sources.list.d/raspi.list deb
http://archive.raspberrypi.org/debian/ jessie main ui


Hm. So my hunch was wrong ;-)


Funny enough, replacing 'jessie' by 'stable' on the Pi box gives a
result:

aptitude search ~Astable~i | wc -l
1088

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[David Wright]

On Thu 03 Nov 2016 at 14:46:05 (+0100), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 02:29:07PM +0100, steve wrote:
> > Le 03-11-2016, à 13:58:49 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :
> > 
> > >On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 01:51:54PM +0100, steve wrote:
> > >>Le 03-11-2016, à 12:45:46 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :
> > >>
> > >>>Just wondering: what's the respective content of the 
> > >>>/etc/apt/sources.list
> > >>>and children?
> > >>
> > >>deb http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ jessie main
> > >>deb-src http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ jessie main
> > >
> > >[...]
> > 
> > Which means ?
> > 
> > 
> > >>which is pretty standard isn't?
> > >
> > >Thanks. That's for your Debian Jessie boxes. Is that the same for your
> > >Raspbian box?
> > 
> > cat sources.list
> > deb http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/ jessie main contrib
> > non-free rpi
> > 
> > and
> > 
> > cat sources.list.d/raspi.list deb
> > http://archive.raspberrypi.org/debian/ jessie main ui
> 
> Hm. So my hunch was wrong ;-)
> 
> That's really interesting: where does apt-cache get the archive from?
> The packages themselves don't "know" to what archive (or suite) they
> belong -- they may well belong to several different archives and/or
> suites.

I find these searches very difficult to interpret. Perhaps I need to
immerse myself in the terminology and mechanisms behind aptitude etc.

$ aptitude search ~Ajessie~i | wc -l
185
$ aptitude search ~Astable~i | wc -l
2316
$ cat /etc/apt/sources.list
# jessie
# the word above is the name my functions etc use for the distribution because
# lsb_release can be unreliable and slow when running an unreleased 
distribution.
# one hash, one space, one word, end of line.

# Original installation from ...

# deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 6.0.0 _Squeeze_ - Official i386 CD Binary-1 
20110205-17:27]/ squeeze main

# ... but upgraded to wheezy when it was still testing.
# ... then upgraded to jessie when it was still testing.

deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free
deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free

deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free

deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free

deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian jessie-backports main contrib non-free
#deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian jessie-backports main contrib non-free

deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian testing main contrib non-free

#
$ 

No trace of the word "stable" in my sources.list and never has been,
unless the squeeze CD originally wrote it there before I changed it
almost straight away.

Cheers,
David.

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[steve]

>Thanks. That's for your Debian Jessie boxes. Is that the same for your
>Raspbian box?

cat sources.list
deb http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/ jessie main contrib
non-free rpi

and

cat sources.list.d/raspi.list deb
http://archive.raspberrypi.org/debian/ jessie main ui


Hm. So my hunch was wrong ;-)

That's really interesting: where does apt-cache get the archive from?


I'm asking myself the same question. Let's take xterm as an example.

$ apt-cache policy xterm
xterm:
 Installé : 312-2
 Candidat : 312-2
Table de version :
*** 312-2 0
   500 http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages
   500 http://ftp.ch.debian.org/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages
   100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

In the /var/lib/dpkg/status file, one reads:

Package: xterm
Status: install ok installed
Priority: optional
Section: x11
Installed-Size: 1709
Maintainer: Debian X Strike Force 
Architecture: amd64
Multi-Arch: foreign
Version: 312-2
Provides: x-terminal-emulator
Depends: xbitmaps, libc6 (>= 2.15), libfontconfig1 (>= 2.11), libice6 (>= 1:1.0.0), 
libtinfo5, libutempter0 (>= 1.1.5), libx11-6, libxaw7, libxft2 (>> 2.1.1), libxmu6, 
libxpm4, libxt6
Recommends: x11-utils
Suggests: xfonts-cyrillic

etc…

which shows no info on the archive's name. BTW, it seems that aptitude uses
that file when executed with the 'show' action.


The packages themselves don't "know" to what archive (or suite) they
belong -- they may well belong to several different archives and/or
suites.



aptitude knows from which archive the installed package come from (the ~A
regex). But I still don't understand why it works on my Debian boxes and not on
yours or the OP's (and on my raspbian). 

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[tomas]

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On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 02:29:07PM +0100, steve wrote:
> Le 03-11-2016, à 13:58:49 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :
> 
> >On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 01:51:54PM +0100, steve wrote:
> >>Le 03-11-2016, à 12:45:46 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :
> >>
> >>>Just wondering: what's the respective content of the /etc/apt/sources.list
> >>>and children?
> >>
> >>deb http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ jessie main
> >>deb-src http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ jessie main
> >
> >[...]
> 
> Which means ?
> 
> 
> >>which is pretty standard isn't?
> >
> >Thanks. That's for your Debian Jessie boxes. Is that the same for your
> >Raspbian box?
> 
> cat sources.list
> deb http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/ jessie main contrib
> non-free rpi
> 
> and
> 
> cat sources.list.d/raspi.list deb
> http://archive.raspberrypi.org/debian/ jessie main ui

Hm. So my hunch was wrong ;-)

That's really interesting: where does apt-cache get the archive from?
The packages themselves don't "know" to what archive (or suite) they
belong -- they may well belong to several different archives and/or
suites.

Hmmm.

regards
- -- tomás
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Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[steve]

Le 03-11-2016, à 13:58:49 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :


On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 01:51:54PM +0100, steve wrote:

Le 03-11-2016, à 12:45:46 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :

>Just wondering: what's the respective content of the /etc/apt/sources.list
>and children?

deb http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ jessie main
deb-src http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ jessie main


[...]


Which means ?



which is pretty standard isn't?


Thanks. That's for your Debian Jessie boxes. Is that the same for your
Raspbian box?


cat sources.list
deb http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/ jessie main contrib
non-free rpi

and

cat sources.list.d/raspi.list 
deb http://archive.raspberrypi.org/debian/ jessie main ui



So "jessie" shows as the archive name.

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2016 at 10:16:03PM -0400, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
> Not sure if you read the entire thread, I ended up writing a script to
> do this now. So, if you want to see packages that are currently
> installed on your system but not part of jessie, you can do the
> following.

Thanks, I hadn't finished reading all the thread, but I'll be sure to look at
your script closely.

my idle thoughts are we should make sure that this is something that can easily
be determined using the standard tools on a Debian system, so I'm thinking about
what enhancements to propose and to which tools.

-- 
Jonathan Dowland
Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.


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Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[tomas]

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On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 01:51:54PM +0100, steve wrote:
> Le 03-11-2016, à 12:45:46 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :
> 
> >Just wondering: what's the respective content of the /etc/apt/sources.list
> >and children?
> 
> deb http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ jessie main
> deb-src http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ jessie main

[...]

> which is pretty standard isn't?

Thanks. That's for your Debian Jessie boxes. Is that the same for your
Raspbian box?

regards
- -- t
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Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[steve]

Le 03-11-2016, à 12:45:46 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :


Just wondering: what's the respective content of the /etc/apt/sources.list
and children?


deb http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ jessie main
deb-src http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ jessie main

deb http://ftp.ch.debian.org/debian/ jessie main non-free contrib
deb-src http://ftp.ch.debian.org/debian/ jessie main non-free contrib

deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free

# jessie-updates, previously known as 'volatile'
deb http://ftp.ch.debian.org/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://ftp.ch.debian.org/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free

# backports
deb http://ftp.ch.debian.org/debian jessie-backports main contrib

deb http://www.deb-multimedia.org jessie main non-free

# version release de firefox
deb http://mozilla.debian.net/ jessie-backports firefox-release

which is pretty standard isn't?

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[tomas]

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On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 10:58:32AM +0100, steve wrote:
> Le 03-11-2016, à 18:40:57 +0900, Mark Fletcher a écrit :
> 
> aptitude search ~Ajessie~i
> 
> meet your needs?
> 
> >>>
> >>>No, it does not. When I ran that command it did not produce any
> >>>output. What is it supposed to do?
> >>
> >I'm with Kamaraju on this, zero output. I also tried quoting the search
> >string in case bash was interfering, made no difference.
> 
> That's really strange. This works on all my Debian Jessie boxes but not
> on my raspbian's one.

Just wondering: what's the respective content of the /etc/apt/sources.list
and children?

Regards
- -- t
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Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[steve]

Le 03-11-2016, à 18:40:57 +0900, Mark Fletcher a écrit :


>>aptitude search ~Ajessie~i
>>
>>meet your needs?
>>
>
>No, it does not. When I ran that command it did not produce any
>output. What is it supposed to do?


I'm with Kamaraju on this, zero output. I also tried quoting the search
string in case bash was interfering, made no difference.


That's really strange. This works on all my Debian Jessie boxes but not
on my raspbian's one.

See
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch02.en.html#_basic_package_management_operations

for more info. In particular table 2.11 where one can read:

match archive   ~A{jessie,stretch,sid}


Could someone else try on their box?

Best,
Steve

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[Mark Fletcher]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 08:36:59AM +0100, steve wrote:
> Le 02-11-2016, à 22:25:53 -0400, kamaraju kusumanchi a écrit :
> 
> >>does
> >>
> >>aptitude search ~Ajessie~i
> >>
> >>meet your needs?
> >>
> >
> >No, it does not. When I ran that command it did not produce any
> >output. What is it supposed to do?
> 
I'm with Kamaraju on this, zero output. I also tried quoting the search 
string in case bash was interfering, made no difference.

Mark

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[steve]

Le 02-11-2016, à 22:25:53 -0400, kamaraju kusumanchi a écrit :


does

aptitude search ~Ajessie~i

meet your needs?



No, it does not. When I ran that command it did not produce any
output. What is it supposed to do?


I get this as an output (first few in French, sorry):

i   ant - Outil de construction "à la make" basé sur Java 
i   ant-optional- compilateur analogue à make fondé sur Java - bibliothèques optionnelles 
i A bundler - Manage Ruby application dependencies
i   conky-all   - highly configurable system monitor (all features enabled)  


etc…

Which are all the package installed in my Jessie system. If it's not
what you are looking for, I guess I have not understand your question.

Steve

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[kamaraju kusumanchi]

On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 6:45 AM, steve  wrote:
> Hi Kamaraju,
>
> Le 23-10-2016, à 20:48:46 -0400, kamaraju kusumanchi a écrit :
>
>> How can I list all the packages installed on my system that are
>> currently part of the stable distribution but not present in either
>> testing or sid?
>
>
> does
>
> aptitude search ~Ajessie~i
>
> meet your needs?
>

No, it does not. When I ran that command it did not produce any
output. What is it supposed to do?

I now believe that aptitude, apt-get cannot do what I am looking for
unless the /etc/apt/sources.list is modified accordingly. But updating
/etc/apt/sources.list is not the "correct" way to address my ask.

thanks
raju
-- 
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi | http://raju.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Blog

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[kamaraju kusumanchi]

On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 6:16 AM, Jonathan Dowland  wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 08:48:46PM -0400, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
>> How can I list all the packages installed on my system that are
>> currently part of the stable distribution but not present in either
>> testing or sid?
>
> This is a good question (sorry I don't have the answer here). I recently
> hit a similar situation with mediawiki, which exists in everything except
> stable. I realised that if you have upgraded between Debian versions at
> some point, you might have some packages installed from the former release
> (now oldstable) that are not in current release, and so you might not get
> security updates for those packages (once security updates cease for
> oldstable).
>
> In the case of mediawiki there is a version in jessie-backports, but default
> pining rules / apt preferences would not upgrade the package automatically in
> this situation.

Hi Jonathan,

Not sure if you read the entire thread, I ended up writing a script to
do this now. So, if you want to see packages that are currently
installed on your system but not part of jessie, you can do the
following.

Step 1: Update the cache
 % grep_installed.py --exclude-dists 'jessie' --update-cache
Processed: 
http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/dists/jessie/main/binary-amd64/Packages.gz
Processed: 
http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/dists/jessie/contrib/binary-amd64/Packages.gz
Processed: 
http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/dists/jessie/non-free/binary-amd64/Packages.gz
writing: /home/rajulocal/.cache/grep_insalled/jessie.gz

Step 2: Query the cache on the list of installed packages
 % dpkg -l  | grep '^ii' | awk '{print $2}' | grep_installed.py
--exclude-dists 'jessie'

Could you give it a try and let me know what you think?
The script can be downloaded from
https://gitlab.com/d3k2mk7/rutils/blob/master/bin/grep_installed.py .
Running it with -h option gives the set of options and some sample
commands.

thanks
raju
-- 
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi | http://raju.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Blog

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[steve]

Hi Kamaraju,

Le 23-10-2016, à 20:48:46 -0400, kamaraju kusumanchi a écrit :


How can I list all the packages installed on my system that are
currently part of the stable distribution but not present in either
testing or sid?


does

aptitude search ~Ajessie~i

meet your needs?

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 08:48:46PM -0400, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
> How can I list all the packages installed on my system that are
> currently part of the stable distribution but not present in either
> testing or sid?

This is a good question (sorry I don't have the answer here). I recently
hit a similar situation with mediawiki, which exists in everything except
stable. I realised that if you have upgraded between Debian versions at
some point, you might have some packages installed from the former release
(now oldstable) that are not in current release, and so you might not get
security updates for those packages (once security updates cease for
oldstable).

In the case of mediawiki there is a version in jessie-backports, but default
pining rules / apt preferences would not upgrade the package automatically in
this situation.


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Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[kamaraju kusumanchi]

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 8:48 PM, kamaraju kusumanchi
 wrote:
> How can I list all the packages installed on my system that are
> currently part of the stable distribution but not present in either
> testing or sid?
>
> For example, libkasten2okteta1controllers1abi1 libkasten2okteta1gui1
> are currently part of stable, but not present in either testing or
> sid. The command should list these packages if they are currently
> installed.
>
> If it matters, here are the repos I am tracking.
>  % inxi -r
> Repos: Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list
>deb http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ stretch main contrib 
> non-free
>deb-src http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ stretch main
> contrib non-free
>deb http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates
> main contrib non-free
>deb-src http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates
> main contrib non-free
>deb http://security.debian.org/ stretch/updates main contrib 
> non-free
>deb-src http://security.debian.org/ stretch/updates main
> contrib non-free
>
> I prefer to use apt-get to aptitude. But if this can only be done in
> aptitude, I do not mind using that.
>
> thanks
> raju
>

I ended up writing a python script, grep_install.py [1] to do this.
The idea is to first build a list of available packages in each
distribution of interest and then query them with desired logic. For
example

Step1: Build/update the cache. This only needs to be done once per distribution
 % grep_installed.py --update-cache --include-dists='jessie'
--exclude-dists='stretch,sid'
Processed: 
http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/dists/jessie/main/binary-amd64/Packages.gz
Processed: 
http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/dists/jessie/contrib/binary-amd64/Packages.gz
Processed: 
http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/dists/jessie/non-free/binary-amd64/Packages.gz
writing: /home/rajulocal/.cache/grep_insalled/jessie.gz
Processed: 
http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/dists/stretch/main/binary-amd64/Packages.gz
Processed: 
http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/dists/stretch/contrib/binary-amd64/Packages.gz
Processed: 
http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/dists/stretch/non-free/binary-amd64/Packages.gz
writing: /home/rajulocal/.cache/grep_insalled/stretch.gz
Processed: 
http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/dists/sid/main/binary-amd64/Packages.gz
Processed: 
http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/dists/sid/contrib/binary-amd64/Packages.gz
Processed: 
http://httpredir.debian.org/debian/dists/sid/non-free/binary-amd64/Packages.gz
writing: /home/rajulocal/.cache/grep_insalled/sid.gz


Step2: Query the cache
 % dpkg -l | grep ^ii | awk '{print $2}' | grep_installed.py
--include-dists='jessie' --exclude-dists='stretch,sid'
/* produces the list of packages in Jessie but not in sid and stretch */


Step3 (optional): Clear the cache
 % grep_installed.py --clear-cache
removing /home/rajulocal/.cache/grep_insalled/jessie.gz
removing /home/rajulocal/.cache/grep_insalled/sid.gz
removing /home/rajulocal/.cache/grep_insalled/stretch.gz
removing /home/rajulocal/.cache/grep_insalled


The script can also work with apt-cache search output. For example, to
filter apt-cache search output and only show information on installed
packages, one can do

 % apt-cache search python apt | grep_installed.py


Finally, it can produce a "matrix" type of report showing the
availability of a given set of packages across different
distributions.

 % echo "python3.4 python3.5" | tr ' ' '\n' | grep_installed.py
--include-dists='jessie' --exclude-dists='stretch,sid' --report matrix
| column -ts ','
data   pkgis_installed  jessie  stretch  sid
python3.4  python3.4  True  TrueFalseFalse
python3.5  python3.5  True  False   True True

This feature is "apt-cache search" friendly as well! :)

% apt-cache search idle-python | grep_installed.py
--include-dists='jessie' --exclude-dists='stretch,sid' --report matrix
| column -ts ','
data  pkg
is_installed  jessie  stretch  sid
idle-python2.7 - IDE for Python (v2.7) using Tkinter  idle-python2.7
True  TrueTrue True
idle-python3.5 - IDE for Python (v3.5) using Tkinter  idle-python3.5
False False   True True

Appendix:
[1] - The code for grep_installed.py can be found in
https://gitlab.com/d3k2mk7/rutils/blob/master/bin/grep_installed.py

Please let me know if you find any bugs or have suggestions for
improvement (no matter how small you think they are).

thanks
raju

-- 
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi | http://raju.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Blog

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[Rick Thomas]

On Oct 23, 2016, at 5:48 PM, kamaraju kusumanchi  
wrote:

> How can I list all the packages installed on my system that are
> currently part of the stable distribution but not present in either
> testing or sid?


try something like this

aptitude -F ‘%p' search '~i' | while read x; do aptitude --disable-columns  
versions '^'"$x"'$'; done

This will give you a list of all installed packages with the repositories they 
are available from.

Here’s a sample

rbthomas@monk:~$ aptitude -F '%p' search '~i' | grep openocd | while read x; do 
aptitude --disable-columns  versions '^'"$x"'$'; done
Package openocd:  
ih 0.3.1-1  100
ph 0.8.0-4 stable 500

On this machine, I have an ancient version (0.3.1-1) of openocd installed that 
is not available in the stable repo.  There is also a version (0.8.0-4) 
available from the stable repo that does not work in my environment, so I have 
the older version “held”.

This is indicated by the fact that there is no repo in the line beginning with 
“ih”.

A small awk or python script processing the output of the above commands should 
give you what you want.

Enjoy!
Rick

Re: list installed packages present only in stable

[Michael Lange]

On Wed, 26 Oct 2016 08:16:56 -0400
kamaraju kusumanchi  wrote:


> But now I find that my system has lots of packages from Jessie which
> are no longer present in either Stretch or Sid. I would like get a
> list of all such packages and decide if I want to remove them.

A small change to my first script should list all packages that are
neither in stretch nor sid, not 100% exactly what you are looking for,
but maybe good enough (?):

#!/usr/bin/python

from commands import getoutput

allpkgs = getoutput('apt-show-versions -b').splitlines()
stretch = [p for p in allpkgs if 'stretch' in p]
sid = [p for p in allpkgs if 'sid' in p]

notsidorstretch = [p for p in allpkgs if not p in (stretch+sid)]
for p in notsidorstretch:
print(p.split(':')[0])

Regards

Michael


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