Re: Moving to Debian server. (Re)Visiting the Postfix or Exim decision. Asking for Debian-ites' opinions.
D G Teed wrote: patk.1...@sent.as wrote: I notice that Debian has settled on Exim as the default MTA, unlike many (most?) other distros which seem to use Postfix. ... but Debian is all about choices, so you pick what you want. In Debian you are driving a car - you can get to many destinations easily. In other distros you are riding a train (quickly goes only to destinations they lay track to access) + walking (can't easily get package from limited repository, compile from source). It can take a little getting used to the difference of finding your own way versus going along with what the distro provided. Exactly! I was going to post a reply saying much the same thing when I saw this posting. I think it is important enough to emphasize the point here. Debian's core is really about the framework and not the packages in the framework. The framework itself is the magical secret sauce that makes the Debian system special. The Debian framework enables you to manage your system and make it do what you want it to do. This is the number one point where I believe Debian really excels over other distros. Because of this there is less importance associated to any individual package. That is why your question asking why Debian attached such great importance to Exim over Postfix didn't really make sense. Because Debian didn't attach very much importance to it. In Debian it is so very easy to select Postfix instead that there isn't any importance attached to having Exim as a default. Because it really does not matter. Because of this Exim would have to significantly misbehave in order to warrant any changes and that is unlikely to happen. Bob signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Moving to Debian server. (Re)Visiting the Postfix or Exim decision. Asking for Debian-ites' opinions.
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:00:22 -0700, patk.1034 wrote: (...) Since 'here' is where Debian-ites 'live', I'd like to ask for experienced opinioins. Specifically in a Debian-server world, why one over the other? (...) I can tell you what I use and that's Postfix. To be sincere, I'm sticked to it because I came from a distro that used Postfix as its default MTA but the fact is that over the years it provided me no reasons to change: secure, robust, flexible, easy to deal with... Just in case this tells you something, I've rarely had to post a question on Postfix mailing lists, it's damn well documented and its config files are very easy to read. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2011.09.17.10.05...@gmail.com
Re: Moving to Debian server. (Re)Visiting the Postfix or Exim decision. Asking for Debian-ites' opinions.
Camaleón wrote: On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:00:22 -0700, patk.1034 wrote: (...) Since 'here' is where Debian-ites 'live', I'd like to ask for experienced opinioins. Specifically in a Debian-server world, why one over the other? One thing to consider is what ELSE you're going to be running on your mail server - antispam, antivirus, list server, archiver, etc.; how well those integrate with exim vs. postfix vs. whatever; how well documented various combinations are; how much support is available; etc. For what it's worth, my own experience: On my production mail servers, I've ended up with postfox+amavisd+spamassassin+clamav for generic mail processing; sympa as a mailing list manager; and uw-imapd for mailboxes. Getting all the pieces wired together tends to be just a bit tricky - and I've found that most of the documentation and howto writeups seem to focus on postfix. It also seems to be a lot easier to get help on the various lists if one is running postfix (though Weitse can be a bit crusty in response to stupid or simple questions on the postfix list - along the lines of RTFM responses; perhaps justified because the documentation is very good). On other servers (physical and virtual), where mail is installed only so server jobs can send mail to sysadmin (on another machine), I just do the default, minimal exim install - it's simple, just works, and needs absolutely no maintenance. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. Infnord practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4e749115.3010...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Moving to Debian server. (Re)Visiting the Postfix or Exim decision. Asking for Debian-ites' opinions.
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:00 PM, patk.1...@sent.as wrote: Hi, We're evaluating our company's future server platform, and are pretty much decided on Debian. At some companies, this would be regarded a miracle to achieve. I'm glad it worked out for you. I notice that Debian has settled on Exim as the default MTA, unlike many (most?) other distros which seem to use Postfix. Most systems need some sort of mailer, at least to get the system messages relayed to another address the sysadmins use. For this minimal purpose, sendmail would do just as well. I'd imagine this is what most people using the default Exim are happy with - not mail MX or SMTP duties, but simple relay or local mail duties. Of course there are sites using Exim fully, but the majority of exim use in Debian will be minimal features. At our shop, we always install postfix immediately after Debian install. It triggers an uninstall of exim4 and we're happy with this. Perhaps if it wasn't this easy to substitute, there would be more of an outcry, but Debian is all about choices, so you pick what you want. In Debian you are driving a car - you can get to many destinations easily. In other distros you are riding a train (quickly goes only to destinations they lay track to access) + walking (can't easily get package from limited repository, compile from source). It can take a little getting used to the difference of finding your own way versus going along with what the distro provided. Postfix is what we use on our MX and SMTP systems, so we know it. Like many, use the well trodden path of clamav, amavisd-new and postfix. I don't know of anyone who was sorry they went with Postfix. The responses on the postfix mailing list can be terse and pithy, but they do fully address your questions if you ask well documented questions, and the RTFM references are always very precise to one's needs. When Wietse answers, it is like Linus Torvalds answered your questions on kernel compiling. You don't expect him to spend too much of his day on you, but you're glad he did, even if it was to smack some sense into you. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAMNR8_PQX0kR5Ov=r0gdK=syv68cgdme6symtz4+0wc8t2f...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Moving to Debian server. (Re)Visiting the Postfix or Exim decision. Asking for Debian-ites' opinions.
Depending on your needs, you might find worth knowing that, as noted in /usr/share/doc/exim4-base/README.Debian.gz included in exim4-base 4.72-6+squeeze2: 4.5. SELinux There is no SELinux policy for Exim4 available so far. Until this is resolved, users should use postfix or sendmail if they intend to run SELinux. The Debian Exim4 maintainers would appreciate if somebody could write an SELinux policy. We will gladly use them in the Debian packages as long as there is somebody available to test, debug and support. Searching around, however, there seems to be some resources available¹ ¹http://marc.info/?l=selinuxm=119765898413497w=2 Disclaimer: I'm not a SeLinux expert of any kind, not even close. -- Huella de clave primaria: AD8F BDC0 5A2C FD5F A179 60E7 F79B AB04 5299 EC56 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Moving to Debian server. (Re)Visiting the Postfix or Exim decision. Asking for Debian-ites' opinions.
patk.1...@sent.as wrote: Those needs happen to include making an informed business decision that takes into account others experience opinions, the state of community/project, etc. Which is why I'm asking my question -- and looking forward to relevant answers. At the risk of stating the obvious, one of the most relevant questions to ask should be relating to your (team's) technical skills. If you know postfix and can make it dance, use postfix. Likewise exim4. Or sendmail, qmail, etc. Where I work, we are (disappointingly) standardising on Exchange. However, fronting that is an exim4 configuration that does routing between the Exchange users, non-Exchange users, our CRM system, and other stuff. Bolted off the side of that is another server that I manage for many of our non-UK European colleagues. It runs exim4 with dovecot and sieve. Exim4 works very well for me/us, and I've rarely needed to ask the community for help - many of the questions I have had were already answered in FAQs or other pieces of online help. FWIW, on my home system (not work!) I've also added Clam and SpamAssassin, greylisting, aliasing capability for multiple domains, and a number of ACL tweaks that seem to help throw out potential spam without losing real email. I strongly object to discarding email, preferring to reject it at source whenever possible so as to avoid being liable for backscatter. Fail2ban's a good addition to consider, too. I suspect that when I started playing with Debian, had it been using postfix instead of exim3, I'd be using postfix now instead of exim4. (Certainly if it had been using sendmail as its default mailer I'd have probably stayed with that, having learned how to understand - and write - sendmail's configuation language many years ago.) If exim4 becomes unavailable on Debian, I'll look at postfix. But right now it's my preferred mailer because it works for me. Chris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/dsgek8xqua@news.roaima.co.uk
Re: Moving to Debian server. (Re)Visiting the Postfix or Exim decision. Asking for Debian-ites' opinions.
Hi, Bob Proulx wrote: Just because installing Debian's standard[1] system task installs Exim doesn't mean that a lot of Debian users don't install Postfix. http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=postfix I'm surprised with the level of Exim4 installs, given the number of guides on Postfix from howtoforge. I use exim4 with dovecot, greylisting, spamassassin and clamav -- it works very well for me. Also use SMTP auth and TLS as much as possible. A quick search on howtoforge.com [1] presented 54 references for exim and 28 for exim4. Postfix gave 108 results! The heavy slant seems to be in relation to ISP config setups. I do wish there was more balance here, granted it's only one resource. Oh and for completeness, I thought I would run a popcorn check on exim [2]; it still outnumbers postfix by a factor greater than 3.5 ... with postfix is closing the gap, but it will be a while yet on current trends. Right now, I am quite happy with my setups and I won't be switching to postfix any time soon, if ever. Even if it does one day end up as the new default. I normally install base minimal, then add what I want as I go. [1] http://www.howtoforge.com/trip_search [2] http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=exim4 -- Kind Regards AndrewM Andrew McGlashan Broadband Solutions now including VoIP -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4e74b197.6090...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Moving to Debian server. (Re)Visiting the Postfix or Exim decision. Asking for Debian-ites' opinions.
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:00:22 -0700, patk.1034 wrote: Hi, We're evaluating our company's future server platform, and are pretty much decided on Debian. I notice that Debian has settled on Exim as the default MTA, unlike many (most?) other distros which seem to use Postfix. As we're also evaluating our mail server tech, I'd like to understand the why of that decision -- and if it's still considered current/good advice. Yes, I'm aware that you can use whatever 'fits'. I asked in #debian, and was pointed at: http://feayn.org/~lewis/exim.txt. Cute :-) From a tech perspective, having played with both now a fair amount, I lean towards Exim's way of doing things. But there's the project/community question. Exim project appears to languish a bit -- looking at mailing list and #irc volume -- especially since the original dev retired, and one of the project's other primary devs from Cambridge seems to be not so active anymore. Otoh, Postfix community seems active and 'verbose' ... including the primary dev himself. Since 'here' is where Debian-ites 'live', I'd like to ask for experienced opinioins. Specifically in a Debian-server world, why one over the other? In particular, is Exim still considered a 'safe' enough long-term bet to base the next five years on? Is the state of the community a concern? Seems that some companies, like AtMail, seem to think Exim's a good enough choice to build a business and product on ... What difference does it make which MTA is the distribution default? Use whichever best suits your needs. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/j50i8k$hbg$1...@dough.gmane.org
Re: Moving to Debian server. (Re)Visiting the Postfix or Exim decision. Asking for Debian-ites' opinions.
patk.1...@sent.as wrote: We're evaluating our company's future server platform, and are pretty much decided on Debian. An excellent choice. But on this mailing list that is simply accepted practice. :-) I notice that Debian has settled on Exim as the default MTA, unlike many (most?) other distros which seem to use Postfix. That is simply historical. It has been that way for a very long time. Periodically discussion appears in debian-devel (search the archives for it) but nothing comes from it. It is only the default and no matter what is chosen for the default there will be those who will want something different. That is one of the things that makes Debian a good choice for a base system. It allows you to be flexible about what you wish to do. As we're also evaluating our mail server tech, I'd like to understand the why of that decision -- and if it's still considered current/good advice. It is simply the way things have been for years and years and for no other reason. I asked in #debian, and was pointed at: http://feayn.org/~lewis/exim.txt. Cute :-) That pretty much describes the situation perfectly! Seriously there isn't much more reason than the above. From a tech perspective, having played with both now a fair amount, I lean towards Exim's way of doing things. I and a good many others prefer Postfix. But Exim isn't Bad nor Evil and so things have remained on friendly terms. But there's the project/community question. You do realize that the discussing Exim and Postfix is like the classic discussions between emacs and vi? It will be difficult to really get objective answers. People like what they like. Exim project appears to languish a bit -- looking at mailing list and #irc volume -- especially since the original dev retired, and one of the project's other primary devs from Cambridge seems to be not so active anymore. Being a Postfix person I have no comments about the Exim project. Otoh, Postfix community seems active and 'verbose' ... including the primary dev himself. Postfix development is very active. New releases with improved features are released regularly. The upstream mailing list is relatively friendly. I routinely ask questions there and get good answers to my questions. Just because installing Debian's standard[1] system task installs Exim doesn't mean that a lot of Debian users don't install Postfix. http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=postfix Of course since Exim is a default it has an advantage in the numbers because a very large number of people simply take the default. But the fact that so many users actively take action to switch from the default and install Postfix is telling of how well it is regarded. Bob [1] If you don't install the standard system task at installation time then you don't get any MTA installed. Then you can install Postfix for the very first time if you like and in that case you have installed Debian and never had Exim installed. That is what I do. Debian is very flexible and very easy to customize. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Moving to Debian server. (Re)Visiting the Postfix or Exim decision. Asking for Debian-ites' opinions.
What difference does it make which MTA is the distribution default? Given your response, I'd guess that it doesn't to you. Thanks for your opinion. It certainly made enough difference for Debian to choose -- differently than most. I've found Debian's 'decisions' as a distro to be generally one of the reasons I'v considering it as my server distro. It stands to reason that I'd also be interested in understanding if those historical reasons, or others more current, for mail server choice carry any weight with folks evaluating the same decision in Debain server environments today. Use whichever best suits your needs. Although it's a rather obvious suggestion, I plan to. I'm not planning to run a personal mail server. I'm planning a business decision. Those needs happen to include making an informed business decision that takes into account others experience opinions, the state of community/project, etc. Which is why I'm asking my question -- and looking forward to relevant answers. Thanks. Pat -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1316212649.3990.140258142072...@webmail.messagingengine.com
Re: Moving to Debian server. (Re)Visiting the Postfix or Exim decision. Asking for Debian-ites' opinions.
But on this mailing list that is simply accepted practice. :-) Yes, which is why I'm here asking :-) You do realize that the discussing Exim and Postfix is like the classic discussions between emacs and vi? It will be difficult to really get objective answers. People like what they like. Sure, and yet -- businesses manage to make objective decisions that take into account those subjective opinions. I'm looking to understand those viewpoints and choices. Asking folks that deploy services on the server platform that I hope to roll out certainly makes sense as one data point. Being a Postfix person I have no comments about the Exim project. That's certainly fair. Perhaps there are others that have considered, or are considering, both. On Debian. And might share their opinions. Postfix development is very active. New releases with improved features are released regularly. The upstream mailing list is relatively friendly. I routinely ask questions there and get good answers to my questions. Certainly appears so. Just because installing Debian's standard[1] system task installs Exim doesn't mean that a lot of Debian users don't install Postfix. http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=postfix I actually suspect that there's more Postfix running out there -- as enterprise, rather than just 'own box', server tech. Thanks. Pat -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1316213174.6064.140258142074...@webmail.messagingengine.com
Re: Moving to Debian server. (Re)Visiting the Postfix or Exim decision. Asking for Debian-ites' opinions.
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:37:29 -0700, patk.1034 wrote: What difference does it make which MTA is the distribution default? Given your response, I'd guess that it doesn't to you. Thanks for your opinion. It certainly made enough difference for Debian to choose -- differently than most. I've found Debian's 'decisions' as a distro to be generally one of the reasons I'v considering it as my server distro. It stands to reason that I'd also be interested in understanding if those historical reasons, or others more current, for mail server choice carry any weight with folks evaluating the same decision in Debain server environments today. Use whichever best suits your needs. Although it's a rather obvious suggestion, I plan to. I'm not planning to run a personal mail server. I'm planning a business decision. Those needs happen to include making an informed business decision that takes into account others experience opinions, the state of community/project, etc. Which is why I'm asking my question -- and looking forward to relevant answers. What an amazingly patronising reply from someone seeking advice! Forget it, then. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/j50k3o$hbg$2...@dough.gmane.org
Re: Moving to Debian server. (Re)Visiting the Postfix or Exim decision. Asking for Debian-ites' opinions.
What an amazingly patronising reply from someone seeking advice! Patronising? Hardly. Tbh, I'd initially considered your response of a similar vein, but chose to give you the benefit of the doubt, thank you for your opinion, and continue the discussion. Seems I'm making all sorts of mistakes today. Forget it, then. As I'm not one to scoff at good advice, OK. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1316214162.9483.140258142078...@webmail.messagingengine.com
