Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Steve Lamb]

Curt Howland wrote:
> Not only has the system never been profitable since, ridership 
> continues to drop since the just-pre-buyout peak around 1940.

Wait, wait, wasn't this system an example of one that worked?  Hehe...
hehe...  *snerk*  Gotta remember that.


-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   |   And dream I do...
---+-



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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Curt Howland]

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On Saturday 03 June 2006 15:03, Christopher Nelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
was heard to say:
> Politics is one thing--but now you're attacking economics?  Now
> that's low ;)

That's funny. Politics is a neverending attack against economics.

- -- 
September 11th, 2001
The proudest day for gun control and central 
planning advocates in American history

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Curt Howland]

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On Saturday 03 June 2006 15:03, Jacob S <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was 
heard to say:
> They were having such a riot, they talked the city governments into
> giving them even more money to start a rail line. It's faster than
> the bus, but only if you want to go to a very selective spot in the
> downtown of a member city. Otherwise you have to use the rail to
> get to a bus stop so you can still have a 2 hour long ride.

That's been the experience with every city that has put in "light 
rail". Trains that no one uses, so it ends up costing taxpayers to 
keep the while elephant alive. San Jose, California, where I lived 
for a while, had only %14 of their operating costs covered by ticket 
sales.

> I don't buy into the public transportation sales pitch, if you can
> call it that.

The Future of Freedom Foundation ran a very interesting series of 
articles outlining the New York City subway disaster. It turns out 
that they were privately built, and operated at a profit for decades, 
until the city government turned on the regulatory screws. They 
eventually went bankrupt, and were bought out by the only buyer left: 
that same city government.

Not only has the system never been profitable since, ridership 
continues to drop since the just-pre-buyout peak around 1940.

Unfortunately, the articles are delayed a few months after their print 
publication, but they will be available soon at 
http://www.fff.org/toc/fr06.asp

BTW, buried deep in the Portland, Oregon, planning commission report 
is an analisis of what cities have the same kind of roads for a given 
population, multi-use high-density buildings, overall population 
densities, all the factors that the planning commission has 
targetted. And the city that the Portland City Planning Commission 
found most closely matched their targets? Portland, your future 
is.

Los Angeles, California.

I'm sorry, but I'm not making this up.

Curt-

- -- 
September 11th, 2001
The proudest day for gun control and central 
planning advocates in American history

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[hendrik]

On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 08:26:58AM -0500, Jacob S wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Fri, 2 Jun 2006 14:32:27 -0700
> Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > On Friday 02 June 2006 13:11, Steve Lamb wrote:
> > > Paul Johnson wrote:
> > > > If good ideas did spread, sales tax would be unconstitutional in
> > > > more than Oregon and New Hampshire,
> > >
> > > Uh, sales tax is better than the alternative which is the
> > > income tax which, correct me if I'm wrong, Oregon has.  I much
> > > prefer my state of no income tax and a sales tax, thanks.
> > 
> > OK, stay in the regressive hellhole you live in and avoid infecting
> > Oregon, then.
> > 
> > > > self-service gasoline would be banned for environmental, speed,
> > > > cost and safety reasons
> > >
> > > Environmental issues are a joke.
> > 
> > Spilled gasoline creates groundwater and air pollution.  Even the EPA
> > says this.
> > 
> > > Speed?  Hardly, last time I was in 
> > > Oregon it took me longer to gas up my car than it did outside.
> > 
> > Unique situation.
> > 
> > > And last 
> > > time I was there in an 18-wheeler they still self-served their own
> > > fuel. 
> > 
> > If they have a cardlock card, yes, they can, because they're
> > technically also an employee of the gas station then.
> > 
> > > Cost? Let's see, I know have to pay for several lackeys to pump my
> > > gas for me and that is supposed to *lower* prices?  Haha, you funny.
> > 
> > Vancouver, WA self service prices as of this morning:  $3.209/gal
> > Portland, OR mini-service prices as of this morning:  $2.899/gal
> > 
> > Hmm, which is cheaper again?
> > 
> > > > more than Oregon and Illinois would have regional governments and
> > > > urban growth boundaries,
> > >
> > > And this is good, how, exactly?  You want all cities to be as
> > > pack as NY?
> > 
> > Yes, because otherwise they sprawl like Los Angeles, the greater evil.
> > 
> > > > cities other than Portland, Seattle and New York
> > > > would have the kind of transportation infrastructure that isn't an
> > > > expensive joke,
> > >
> > > By this I presume you mean public which is in and of itself a
> > > complete joke.  Yeah, 2 hours to get the same distance as it takes
> > > me 30 minutes on my motorcycle.
> > 
> > No, I mean overall.  Overemphasis on the freeway and lack of
> > efficient public transit have dragged most of this continent to a
> > standstill.
> > 
> > > > airlines would have to compete against ground transportation
> > > > with their own money, not tax dollars.
> > >
> > > About the only good idea right there.  Of course it isn't like
> > > ground transportation isn't using tax money as well.
> > 
> > Save for Amtrak, which is the postal service for when you need to
> > ship a warm body, name one.
> 
> I know of a large metroplex where the only public transportation gets
> tax money. The "business" talked the cities into adding a full
> percentage point to their sales tax to help fund the bus line. And yes,
> they're still worlds slower than driving your own car. 
> 
> They needed the tax money so much that they started spending it on
> "art" for their bus stations that cost a couple $million a piece. Stuff
> that looked like twisted metal in one case and a woman shaking her fist
> at heaven in another. 
> 
> They were having such a riot, they talked the city governments into
> giving them even more money to start a rail line. It's faster than the
> bus, but only if you want to go to a very selective spot in the
> downtown of a member city. Otherwise you have to use the rail to get to
> a bus stop so you can still have a 2 hour long ride. 
> 
> I don't buy into the public transportation sales pitch, if you can call
> it that.

That doesn's sound like public transportation at all.
That sounds like a shill set up so that poeple will get the 
understanding that public transportation can't work.

I've lived in cities where public transportation really did work.

And in ones where it didn't.

-- hendrik


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Christopher Nelson]

On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 09:34:16AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
> > The US is a federation of 50 individual states that really don't owe each 
> > other much of anything.  California forgets this most often.
> 
> Doesn't matter.  Because at the end the states contain people and
> according to your sick and twisted logic *you* owe the individuals.  But of
> course, you forget that when it's most convenient for you.

Politics is one thing--but now you're attacking economics?  Now that's
low ;)

-- 
Christopher Nelson -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
---
Everything is worth precisely as much as a belch, the difference being
that a belch is more satisfying.-- Ingmar Bergman


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Steve Lamb]

Paul Johnson wrote:
> Good luck.  It's about 330 miles from the first gas station in Washington to 
> the first gas station in California on I-5, the shortest way to make the 
> trip.

330 miles, like that's a long distance.  Maybe I'll go back and forth for
an entire week, just for you.

> It's 307 miles from the Washington line to the Oregon line on I-5.
> Our problem isn't with people who just pass through, it's the ones who forget 
> to leave.

Yes, yes, but you need people for your "progressive", totalitarian
initiatives.

> Every time I go out of state into Washington, Idaho, Nevada or up to Alberta 
> or BC, I have about equal odds of the station absolutely reeking of gasoline 
> because of a nice, big spill on the concrete.

Or that could be because, you know, it's a gas station and fumes tend to
escape vehicles when they open up the tank.  I mean it's like going to the
dump and wondering why it reeks of garbage.

>> Even LA, the "evil one" you were never more than an hour from countryside. 

> Maybe if you live near the edge of the sprawl, sure.  But it takes well more 
> than an hour to get out of town from Orange County.  The fastest I ever made 
> it from SD to LA is two hours...at 3 in the morning on a Sunday.

No edges needed, that's pretty much anywhere.  And news flash, Paul, San
Diego to Los Angeles is hardly urban the entire trip.

> I understand how much countryside that is.  However, the prime countryside 
> tends to be near cities, and tend to get stomped first.  There's a finite 
> amount of farmable land in the world, and cities tend to be near that for a 
> reason.

Well then, how about you come out here where I am if you're so concerned
with farmable land.  Not a whole lot of that out here.  Oh, but you like your
nice little niche up there.  It's ok for *you* to stop but not other people.

> The US is a federation of 50 individual states that really don't owe each 
> other much of anything.  California forgets this most often.

Doesn't matter.  Because at the end the states contain people and
according to your sick and twisted logic *you* owe the individuals.  But of
course, you forget that when it's most convenient for you.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   |   And dream I do...
---+-



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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Jacob S wrote:
> 
> I know of a large metroplex where the only public transportation gets
> tax money. The "business" talked the cities into adding a full
> percentage point to their sales tax to help fund the bus line. And yes,
> they're still worlds slower than driving your own car. 
> 

I seem to recall that back in 1999, San Antonio voted to increase sales
tax to fund a new basketball arena.  Basically, the Spurs had just won
the championship the previous season (the short one with the strike) and
since the Alamodome had been built to attract an NFL team, the Spurs
"demanded" a new arena or else they would look for another city.  Some
local business men got together and came up with this ingenious plan
whereby they provided something like 25-30% of the captical to build the
stadium and the city would raise sales tax to cover the rest.  Of
course, being that these businessmen were so concerned for the public
interest, they offored to retain ownership of the arena (even though the
city was footing most of the bill) and then lease it back to the city so
that the Spurs could use it.  Of course, they also reserved the right to
lease it out to other people/organizations (think concerts, that sort of
thing).  The really sad thing is that the sales tax increase was voted
in.  I am not sure if I got all the details exactly correct, since I am
going from memory, but you get the idea.

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Jacob S]

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On Fri, 2 Jun 2006 14:32:27 -0700
Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Friday 02 June 2006 13:11, Steve Lamb wrote:
> > Paul Johnson wrote:
> > > If good ideas did spread, sales tax would be unconstitutional in
> > > more than Oregon and New Hampshire,
> >
> > Uh, sales tax is better than the alternative which is the
> > income tax which, correct me if I'm wrong, Oregon has.  I much
> > prefer my state of no income tax and a sales tax, thanks.
> 
> OK, stay in the regressive hellhole you live in and avoid infecting
> Oregon, then.
> 
> > > self-service gasoline would be banned for environmental, speed,
> > > cost and safety reasons
> >
> > Environmental issues are a joke.
> 
> Spilled gasoline creates groundwater and air pollution.  Even the EPA
> says this.
> 
> > Speed?  Hardly, last time I was in 
> > Oregon it took me longer to gas up my car than it did outside.
> 
> Unique situation.
> 
> > And last 
> > time I was there in an 18-wheeler they still self-served their own
> > fuel. 
> 
> If they have a cardlock card, yes, they can, because they're
> technically also an employee of the gas station then.
> 
> > Cost? Let's see, I know have to pay for several lackeys to pump my
> > gas for me and that is supposed to *lower* prices?  Haha, you funny.
> 
> Vancouver, WA self service prices as of this morning:  $3.209/gal
> Portland, OR mini-service prices as of this morning:  $2.899/gal
> 
> Hmm, which is cheaper again?
> 
> > > more than Oregon and Illinois would have regional governments and
> > > urban growth boundaries,
> >
> > And this is good, how, exactly?  You want all cities to be as
> > pack as NY?
> 
> Yes, because otherwise they sprawl like Los Angeles, the greater evil.
> 
> > > cities other than Portland, Seattle and New York
> > > would have the kind of transportation infrastructure that isn't an
> > > expensive joke,
> >
> > By this I presume you mean public which is in and of itself a
> > complete joke.  Yeah, 2 hours to get the same distance as it takes
> > me 30 minutes on my motorcycle.
> 
> No, I mean overall.  Overemphasis on the freeway and lack of
> efficient public transit have dragged most of this continent to a
> standstill.
> 
> > > airlines would have to compete against ground transportation
> > > with their own money, not tax dollars.
> >
> > About the only good idea right there.  Of course it isn't like
> > ground transportation isn't using tax money as well.
> 
> Save for Amtrak, which is the postal service for when you need to
> ship a warm body, name one.

I know of a large metroplex where the only public transportation gets
tax money. The "business" talked the cities into adding a full
percentage point to their sales tax to help fund the bus line. And yes,
they're still worlds slower than driving your own car. 

They needed the tax money so much that they started spending it on
"art" for their bus stations that cost a couple $million a piece. Stuff
that looked like twisted metal in one case and a woman shaking her fist
at heaven in another. 

They were having such a riot, they talked the city governments into
giving them even more money to start a rail line. It's faster than the
bus, but only if you want to go to a very selective spot in the
downtown of a member city. Otherwise you have to use the rail to get to
a bus stop so you can still have a 2 hour long ride. 

I don't buy into the public transportation sales pitch, if you can call
it that.

HAND,
Jacob
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Friday 02 June 2006 15:53, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
> > That's fair.  OTOH, we don't want people moving here, just spend money
> > and remember to go home when your done visiting.
>
> How about I just gas up on the Cali line and spend all the exhaust in
> your craphole on the way to Washington where I'll gas up on the other side
> of that line.  :P

Good luck.  It's about 330 miles from the first gas station in Washington to 
the first gas station in California on I-5, the shortest way to make the 
trip.  It's 307 miles from the Washington line to the Oregon line on I-5.  
Our problem isn't with people who just pass through, it's the ones who forget 
to leave.

> > Usually not without help.  Last time I saw a gas station spill here, the
> > guy ahead of me drove off with the hose.
>
> Wow, last time I saw a spill was... uhm... wait... oh right, never.

Every time I go out of state into Washington, Idaho, Nevada or up to Alberta 
or BC, I have about equal odds of the station absolutely reeking of gasoline 
because of a nice, big spill on the concrete.

> Even LA, the "evil one" you were never more than an hour from countryside. 

Maybe if you live near the edge of the sprawl, sure.  But it takes well more 
than an hour to get out of town from Orange County.  The fastest I ever made 
it from SD to LA is two hours...at 3 in the morning on a Sunday.

> Now, my fine ignorant friend.  Know how much contryside that is?  Well,
> from one ocean to the other takes 5 days in an 18-wheeler.  I know, I've
> done it often enough.  And most of that time is not spent in urban centers
> or even in urban periphery.  It's spent in the countryside.  Maybe if you
> spent a little more time traveling and a little less time trying to tell
> other people how to live you'd grasp that.

I understand how much countryside that is.  However, the prime countryside 
tends to be near cities, and tend to get stomped first.  There's a finite 
amount of farmable land in the world, and cities tend to be near that for a 
reason.

> Where airlines compete with ground transportation without tax
> dollars oh, except for trains... which are on the ground... and use tax
> dollars.

It's not impossible to compete with a national railroad.  There's competition 
for passenger service in Canada and England off the top of my head, and they 
both have national passenger rail services.  Amtrak was created because there 
is demand to get around by train, but the commercial railroads consolidated 
and focused on freight.

> Want to know my other favorite one of yours?  The constant whining
> about California's power and yet you're a self proclaimed socialist.  Gee,
> if they need it shouldn't you provide it?  Isn't that one of the baselines
> of socialism.  Oh, right "Except when it's a state I hate."

The US is a federation of 50 individual states that really don't owe each 
other much of anything.  California forgets this most often.

-- 
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP & Google Talk): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber: Because it's time to move forward  http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Steve Lamb]

Paul Johnson wrote:
> That's fair.  OTOH, we don't want people moving here, just spend money and 
> remember to go home when your done visiting.

How about I just gas up on the Cali line and spend all the exhaust in your
craphole on the way to Washington where I'll gas up on the other side of that
line.  :P

> Usually not without help.  Last time I saw a gas station spill here, the guy 
> ahead of me drove off with the hose.

Wow, last time I saw a spill was... uhm... wait... oh right, never.

> Oh, yeah, pave the earth, because it's only gotta be around until you're 
> dead, 
> right?

Nope, don't pave the earth.  On the other hand it isn't like there is a
huge amount of land around here.  At the population density of NY the entire
population of the world could fit inside Texas with room to spare.  Even LA,
the "evil one" you were never more than an hour from countryside.  Now, my
fine ignorant friend.  Know how much contryside that is?  Well, from one ocean
to the other takes 5 days in an 18-wheeler.  I know, I've done it often
enough.  And most of that time is not spent in urban centers or even in urban
periphery.  It's spent in the countryside.  Maybe if you spent a little more
time traveling and a little less time trying to tell other people how to live
you'd grasp that.

> Maybe if you're in a state that lets you wrecklessly zip between lanes on a 
> motorcycle.  Everywhere else motorcycles are just as stuck as the rest of 
> traffic.

Pst, Nevada, no lane splitting.  I was referring to my daily commute to
work and the time it takes my coworkers to travel the same distance via public
and company supplied bus.  You know, Paul, you'd think that me mentioning no
income tax would've clued you in.

>>> Save for Amtrak, which is the postal service for when you need to ship a
>>> warm body, name one.
>> Sorry, no exceptions allowed.  I rest my case.

> It's a good thing people like you usually don't get much heed on this 
> continent politically...

Really?  You mean someone who can form an argument without having to
resort to exceptions to prop it up.

Where airlines compete with ground transportation without tax dollars
oh, except for trains... which are on the ground... and use tax dollars.

Want to know my other favorite one of yours?  The constant whining about
California's power and yet you're a self proclaimed socialist.  Gee, if they
need it shouldn't you provide it?  Isn't that one of the baselines of
socialism.  Oh, right "Except when it's a state I hate."

Like I said, move to Canada if you admire it so.  Tired of nits like you
screwing up this nation with your idiocy and doublethink.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   |   And dream I do...
---+-



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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Katipo]

Steve Lamb wrote:


Curt Howland wrote:
 

It hasn't been a republic since at least the time of a large number of 
people being forced at gun point to become "citizens" against their 
will, 1865.
   



   Most would also cite when the states lost their representatives in the
Federal government.  17th Ammendment, 1913.  The idea prior to then was that
the Representatives were in Congress to represent the people while the
Senators were there to represent the States interests.  Now that the Senetors
are directly elected by the people they are nothing more than another form of
representation for the people.  It's kind of why states rights have been
trampled on ever since.

 


It's getting rapidly worse...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/05/30/national/w132119D75.DTL&type=politics

/...and yes, Alito cast the deciding vote.

Quoth: Stephen Kohn, chairman of the National Whistleblower Center, "The 
ruling is a victory for every crooked politician in the United States."/


Will you Americans please do something about all this?
I'm already working as a volunteer down at the local branch of the 
terrorist recruitment centre, and sending every spare cent I can to Iran.

Don't you think it's time to do your share?
Regards,


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Friday 02 June 2006 15:00, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
> > OK, stay in the regressive hellhole you live in and avoid infecting
> > Oregon, then.
>
> What you call regressive I call fair, equitable and just.  None of
> which the hellhole you live in can claim.

That's fair.  OTOH, we don't want people moving here, just spend money and 
remember to go home when your done visiting.

> >> Environmental issues are a joke.
> >
> > Spilled gasoline creates groundwater and air pollution.  Even the EPA
> > says this.
>
> Yes, and the near minimum wage workers don't spill at all, do they?

Usually not without help.  Last time I saw a gas station spill here, the guy 
ahead of me drove off with the hose.

> > Vancouver, WA self service prices as of this morning:  $3.209/gal
> > Portland, OR mini-service prices as of this morning:  $2.899/gal
> >
> > Hmm, which is cheaper again?
>
> And you're sure that's the only factor?

The gas station closest to me is managed buy a guy who runs self-serve 
stations in neighboring Clark County, WA, too.  He said he even tried opening 
mini-serve stations because he wanted to save on insurance and undercut the 
competition, but was forced to go self-serve there because for some reason, 
Clark County drivers are more interested in paying much higher prices for gas 
to do his job for him.

> > Yes, because otherwise they sprawl like Los Angeles, the greater evil.
>
> Uh-huh.  Having been in both I far prefer LA to NY, thanks.

Oh, yeah, pave the earth, because it's only gotta be around until you're dead, 
right?

> > No, I mean overall.  Overemphasis on the freeway and lack of efficient
> > public transit have dragged most of this continent to a standstill.
>
> Yes, well, not like public transportation would help in that matter, it
> makes it worse.  Like I said, 2 hours to go what I can go 30 minutes on my
> motorcycle and that's in a city without major traffic problems and
> construction on two of the three freeways in it.  In any other large city
> there is no way I would even be able to get to work from home in even 2
> hours on public transportation.  Given the size of this nation we're doing
> quite well when it comes to transportation.  The only problem are people
> who harp on public transportation even though, time and again, it has
> failed.

Maybe if you're in a state that lets you wrecklessly zip between lanes on a 
motorcycle.  Everywhere else motorcycles are just as stuck as the rest of 
traffic.

> > Save for Amtrak, which is the postal service for when you need to ship a
> > warm body, name one.
>
> Sorry, no exceptions allowed.  I rest my case.

It's a good thing people like you usually don't get much heed on this 
continent politically...

-- 
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP & Google Talk): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber: Because it's time to move forward  http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Steve Lamb]

Paul Johnson wrote:
> OK, stay in the regressive hellhole you live in and avoid infecting Oregon, 
> then.

What you call regressive I call fair, equitable and just.  None of which
the hellhole you live in can claim.

>> Environmental issues are a joke.

> Spilled gasoline creates groundwater and air pollution.  Even the EPA says 
> this.

Yes, and the near minimum wage workers don't spill at all, do they?


>> Speed?  Hardly, last time I was in 
>> Oregon it took me longer to gas up my car than it did outside.

> Unique situation.

I'd call it fairly common if you're talking about lines at all since I
haven't seen a line at a gas station in the years prior and years since.

> Vancouver, WA self service prices as of this morning:  $3.209/gal
> Portland, OR mini-service prices as of this morning:  $2.899/gal

> Hmm, which is cheaper again?

And you're sure that's the only factor?

> Yes, because otherwise they sprawl like Los Angeles, the greater evil.

Uh-huh.  Having been in both I far prefer LA to NY, thanks.

> No, I mean overall.  Overemphasis on the freeway and lack of efficient public 
> transit have dragged most of this continent to a standstill.

Yes, well, not like public transportation would help in that matter, it
makes it worse.  Like I said, 2 hours to go what I can go 30 minutes on my
motorcycle and that's in a city without major traffic problems and
construction on two of the three freeways in it.  In any other large city
there is no way I would even be able to get to work from home in even 2 hours
on public transportation.  Given the size of this nation we're doing quite
well when it comes to transportation.  The only problem are people who harp on
public transportation even though, time and again, it has failed.

> Save for Amtrak, which is the postal service for when you need to ship a warm 
> body, name one.

Sorry, no exceptions allowed.  I rest my case.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   |   And dream I do...
---+-



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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Friday 02 June 2006 13:11, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
> > If good ideas did spread, sales tax would be unconstitutional in more
> > than Oregon and New Hampshire,
>
> Uh, sales tax is better than the alternative which is the income tax
> which, correct me if I'm wrong, Oregon has.  I much prefer my state of no
> income tax and a sales tax, thanks.

OK, stay in the regressive hellhole you live in and avoid infecting Oregon, 
then.

> > self-service gasoline would be banned for environmental, speed, cost and
> > safety reasons
>
> Environmental issues are a joke.

Spilled gasoline creates groundwater and air pollution.  Even the EPA says 
this.

> Speed?  Hardly, last time I was in 
> Oregon it took me longer to gas up my car than it did outside.

Unique situation.

> And last 
> time I was there in an 18-wheeler they still self-served their own fuel. 

If they have a cardlock card, yes, they can, because they're technically also 
an employee of the gas station then.

> Cost? Let's see, I know have to pay for several lackeys to pump my gas for
> me and that is supposed to *lower* prices?  Haha, you funny.

Vancouver, WA self service prices as of this morning:  $3.209/gal
Portland, OR mini-service prices as of this morning:  $2.899/gal

Hmm, which is cheaper again?

> > more than Oregon and Illinois would have regional governments and
> > urban growth boundaries,
>
> And this is good, how, exactly?  You want all cities to be as pack as
> NY?

Yes, because otherwise they sprawl like Los Angeles, the greater evil.

> > cities other than Portland, Seattle and New York
> > would have the kind of transportation infrastructure that isn't an
> > expensive joke,
>
> By this I presume you mean public which is in and of itself a complete
> joke.  Yeah, 2 hours to get the same distance as it takes me 30 minutes on
> my motorcycle.

No, I mean overall.  Overemphasis on the freeway and lack of efficient public 
transit have dragged most of this continent to a standstill.

> > airlines would have to compete against ground transportation
> > with their own money, not tax dollars.
>
> About the only good idea right there.  Of course it isn't like ground
> transportation isn't using tax money as well.

Save for Amtrak, which is the postal service for when you need to ship a warm 
body, name one.

-- 
Paul Johnson
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Friday 02 June 2006 13:12, Liudmila Yafremava wrote:
> don't you people think this discussion is just a little outside the scope
> of the mailing list?

The stated scope for this mailing list is "Debian's users."  I'd say we're 
still well within the realm of that.

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Rich Johnson]

On Jun 2, 2006, at 4:14 PM, Steve Lamb wrote:


Curt Howland wrote:
It hasn't been a republic since at least the time of a large  
number of

people being forced at gun point to become "citizens" against their
will, 1865.


Most would also cite when the states lost their representatives  
in the
Federal government.  17th Ammendment, 1913.  The idea prior to then  
was that

the Representatives were in Congress to represent the people while the
 were there to represent the States interests.  Now that the Senetors
are directly elected by the people they are nothing more than  
another form of
representation for the people.  It's kind of why states rights have  
been

trampled on ever since.


HEY! The States ratified it--37-1-10.  Only Utah (with 0.4% of  
population) objected.  States containing 99.6% of the people either  
affirmed or accepted the amendment.


AL, FL, MS, SC, GA, VA, MD, KY, DE and RI are the abstaining states.   
They make an interesting set.



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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Nate Bargmann]

* Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006 Jun 02 15:19 -0500]:
> Curt Howland wrote:
> > It hasn't been a republic since at least the time of a large number of 
> > people being forced at gun point to become "citizens" against their 
> > will, 1865.
> 
> Most would also cite when the states lost their representatives in the
> Federal government.  17th Ammendment, 1913.  The idea prior to then was that
> the Representatives were in Congress to represent the people while the
> Senators were there to represent the States interests.  Now that the Senetors
> are directly elected by the people they are nothing more than another form of
> representation for the people.  It's kind of why states rights have been
> trampled on ever since.

Bingo!

I don't support any of the new amendments that have been bandied about
over the past couple of decades, but, being of Originalist Thought,  I 
sure can support repealing several later amendments.  Speaking of
amendments, amending the US Constitution is not the way to cure every 
perceived social ill in the USA.

Take flag burning for instance.  It has lost its shock value and it
rarely gets the intended reaction any more.  An amendment at this late
stage is unnecessary cruft.  To my way of thinking, the majority of the
amendments beyond the first ten have suffered mightily from the law of
Unintended Consequences.

- Nate >>

-- 
 Wireless | Amateur Radio Station N0NB  |  Successfully Microsoft
  Amateur radio exams; ham radio; Linux info @  | free since January 1998.
 http://www.qsl.net/n0nb/   |  "Debian, the choice of
 My Kawasaki KZ-650 SR @| a GNU generation!"
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Liudmila Yafremava wrote:
> 
> don't you people think this discussion is just a little outside the
> scope of the mailing list?
> 

I think you are right.  The problem is that the mailing lists and forums
that are dedicated to discussions about politics and religion always
degenerate into flamefests about which Linux distro is better or which
text editor is better.  That sort of stuff just rubs me the wrong way.

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Liudmila Yafremava]

don't you people think this discussion is just a little outside the scope 
of the mailing list?


On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, Steve Lamb wrote:


Curt Howland wrote:

It hasn't been a republic since at least the time of a large number of
people being forced at gun point to become "citizens" against their
will, 1865.


   Most would also cite when the states lost their representatives in the
Federal government.  17th Ammendment, 1913.  The idea prior to then was that
the Representatives were in Congress to represent the people while the
Senators were there to represent the States interests.  Now that the Senetors
are directly elected by the people they are nothing more than another form of
representation for the people.  It's kind of why states rights have been
trampled on ever since.

--
Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
  PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   |   And dream I do...
---+-





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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Steve Lamb]

Curt Howland wrote:
> It hasn't been a republic since at least the time of a large number of 
> people being forced at gun point to become "citizens" against their 
> will, 1865.

Most would also cite when the states lost their representatives in the
Federal government.  17th Ammendment, 1913.  The idea prior to then was that
the Representatives were in Congress to represent the people while the
Senators were there to represent the States interests.  Now that the Senetors
are directly elected by the people they are nothing more than another form of
representation for the people.  It's kind of why states rights have been
trampled on ever since.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   |   And dream I do...
---+-



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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Steve Lamb]

Paul Johnson wrote:
> If good ideas did spread, sales tax would be unconstitutional in more than 
> Oregon and New Hampshire,

Uh, sales tax is better than the alternative which is the income tax
which, correct me if I'm wrong, Oregon has.  I much prefer my state of no
income tax and a sales tax, thanks.

> self-service gasoline would be banned for environmental, speed, cost and 
> safety reasons

Environmental issues are a joke.  Speed?  Hardly, last time I was in
Oregon it took me longer to gas up my car than it did outside.  And last time
I was there in an 18-wheeler they still self-served their own fuel.  Cost?
Let's see, I know have to pay for several lackeys to pump my gas for me and
that is supposed to *lower* prices?  Haha, you funny.

> more than Oregon and Illinois would have regional governments and
> urban growth boundaries,

And this is good, how, exactly?  You want all cities to be as pack as NY?

> cities other than Portland, Seattle and New York 
> would have the kind of transportation infrastructure that isn't an expensive 
> joke,

By this I presume you mean public which is in and of itself a complete
joke.  Yeah, 2 hours to get the same distance as it takes me 30 minutes on my
motorcycle.

> it would be absolutely unthinkable to have critical infrastructure like
> transit, electric, phone, water, sewer and garbage to be owned by a private 
> company, 

Just as it is unthinkable to have such things in the hands if inept
governments, which by definition, most devolve into.

> airlines would have to compete against ground transportation
> with their own money, not tax dollars.

About the only good idea right there.  Of course it isn't like ground
transportation isn't using tax money as well.

> And people actually have to ask me why I think the Oregon Territory (Oregon, 
> Washington, ~Idaho) needs to secede and undergo a velvet revolution or become 
> Canada's 14th province.

You could, uhm, just move there.  I know you want to carry everyone on
your back but, really, why not just take care of yourself first and leave
everyone else to their own devices.  I know that's an alien concept to you but
just try.

> [1]  I can do my taxes online. I can renew my car registration online. 
> I 
> can request a new address for my driver's license online. I can reserve a 
> campsite at any state park in Oregon online. I can register for unemployment 
> and apply for almost any job in the state, public or private, through the 
> state's website.  I'm even required under atrociously excessive penalty of 
> law to go to sss.gov register to be part of a draft to commit atrocities 
> against my will in a foreign land without body armor or adequate training.  
> So why not something as basic as vote?

Simple reason.  In all the other cases you're either paying money or need
to show up in person.  Voting you're doing neither.

Frankly if someone wanted to pay my car's registration for me I'll let
'em.  Kinda hard to abuse that.

Campground you have to show up, unemployment, show up, apply for jobs,
show up, serve in the military, show up.  So if someone does do any of those
for you they would be hard pressed to pass the in person check.

Vote, neither.  You're neither paying for someone else or showing up in
person to validate the on-line item.  So if someone else votes for you the
second check is a whole lot harder to perform.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   |   And dream I do...
---+-



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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Stephen]

On Fri, Jun 02, 2006 at 12:00:24PM +0300 or thereabouts, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> Stephen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Heck even some republics have a figure head of state, France for example
> > has a Prime Minister and a President. If memory serves, the Prime Minister 
> > is the defacto head of state, but the president has the power. It might be 
> > the other way around, but you get the idea, this is hardly a new concept, 
> > except probably to Americans. ;)
> 
> France is not the best example, because AFAIK the power is shared. I
> know this because the Romanian system was inspired by the French. An
> unfortunate choice if you ask me.

Hi Andrei:

I stand corrected, and thanks for pointing out my inaccuracy. According
to wikipedia you're absolutely correct;


-- 
Regards
Stephen
+
Why is it that we rejoice at a birth and grieve at a funeral?  It is because we
are not the person involved.
-- Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar"
+


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Andrei Popescu]

Stephen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Heck even some republics have a figure head of state, France for example
> has a Prime Minister and a President. If memory serves, the Prime Minister 
> is the defacto head of state, but the president has the power. It might be 
> the other way around, but you get the idea, this is hardly a new concept, 
> except probably to Americans. ;)

France is not the best example, because AFAIK the power is shared. I
know this because the Romanian system was inspired by the French. An
unfortunate choice if you ask me.

I prefer the German (and Austrian) system, where the President is really
just a figure, and the Chancellor (Prime Minister) has the power. This
way you can reelect a good Prime Minister for more than just 2 terms,
but get rid of him if you want it, see Helmut Kohl.

Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Thursday 01 June 2006 11:09, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
> > That's typical in elections except ties, and not surprising nobody
> > bothered or wanted to check for absentee ballots.  This is one of the two
> > problems Oregon eliminated by going to vote by mail.
>
> So, all voting is done by mail?  That's different.

Yup.  That's why Oregon has been consistently 49th to certify in federal 
elections since we abolished the voting booth in the special election ending 
on March 9, 2000[1].  It takes longer since we bring the elections to the 
people instead of the other way around.

[1] Special elections were always vote by mail.  You can register to vote for 
any election you will be 18 years or older on the last day of.  I (legally) 
voted to abolish the voting booth when I was 17, as I turned 18 the day 
before the election ended.  Good thing, too... November 2000 was the largest 
ballot ever issued in Oregon, weighing several pounds when it arrived, 
spanning two punched cards and three voter's pamphlets, that when stacked, 
was about as thick as the Metro Portland yellow pages (which, at the time, 
was *two* average-sized phone books).  It took me all weekend to vote in that 
election, usually it only takes me about four hours or so.  Would been faster 
and cheaper if the Oregon Republicans didn't keep asking for recounts on a 
couple state congressmen, and in a presidential election that ultimately 
didn't matter in the least once the SCOTUS decided to declare the final 
national tally as 5 votes Bush, 4 votes Gore; and if Bill Sizemore[2] and Lon 
Mabon[3] would learn that anything they put their name to on the ballot has 
and will always fail by wide margins consistently...

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Sizemore

[3] Wikipedia strangely lacks an entry for him, probably because it is 
impossible to write anything about the man from a NPOV.  Long story short, 
he's a homophobic womanizer that keeps floating initiatives to restrict or 
abolish rights of women, the GLBT community, and minorities.  Ironically, he 
is currently in the process of changing genders and expects to run as Lynn 
Mabon for governor this November.

-- 
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP & Google Talk): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Thursday 01 June 2006 13:08, Curt Howland wrote:
> On Thursday 01 June 2006 15:22, [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to
>
> say:
> > To my mind, that is when america stopped being a democracy.
>
> The US was never a democracy. It was founded as a representitive
> republic of limited powers.
>
> It hasn't been a republic since at least the time of a large number of
> people being forced at gun point to become "citizens" against their
> will, 1865.

Just ask Hawai'i!

-- 
Paul Johnson
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Thursday 01 June 2006 11:59, Curt Howland wrote:

> It actually solves a great many problems. There is a paper trail,
> which eliminates the greatest threat of electronic voting,
> undetectable fraud. It also is convenient for anyone and everyone
> equally, people can also vote early if they want.

It solves the problem with people voting absentee because they don't want to 
go into the polling place, and thus their vote not counting except under 
extraordinary circumstances, too.  The only way you can vote absentee here is 
if you won't be in the state on the last election day (Oregon has roughly 42 
election days instead of less than one election day like other states per 
election cycle, and everybody registered to vote should have their ballot by 
the fourth or fifth day of the election).

> Oregon has a great idea, I hope it spreads.

So do I, unfortunately, good ideas don't spread to national status in the US.  
If good ideas did spread, sales tax would be unconstitutional in more than 
Oregon and New Hampshire, self-service gasoline would be banned for 
environmental, speed, cost and safety reasons in more than Oregon and New 
Jersey (fewer spills, faster moving lines, cheaper gas since the difference 
isn't being spent on higher insurance premiums to let customers do their job 
for them), more than Oregon and Illinois would have regional governments and 
urban growth boundaries, cities other than Portland, Seattle and New York 
would have the kind of transportation infrastructure that isn't an expensive 
joke, it would be absolutely unthinkable to have critical infrastructure like 
transit, electric, phone, water, sewer and garbage to be owned by a private 
company, and airlines would have to compete against ground transportation 
with their own money, not tax dollars.

> The state where I live cannot even institute a state lottery without the 
> entire process dripping corruption and bribery,  

That's normal with lotteries.  Oregon didn't have a lottery before a 
manufacturer of machines to print scratch-its pitched the idea, and that was 
a long, drawn out battle in the state congress.

> In every country that finally gets elections, a clear paper trail is
> one of the primary conditions. It would be sad if Americans, who
> supposedly stand for that sort of thing, were to so easily be lulledbut at 
> least they did finally throw out electronic voting. 

I don't see a problem with electronic voting per se, heck, Oregon counts it's 
ballots electronically.  On the gripping hand, Oregon also requires access to 
the source code for software used in vote counting.  The state is suing 
Sequioa Software over this right now, as Sequoia sold Oregon vote counting 
software under those terms, then won't show us the source.  Apparently, some 
other states require access to the source for elections as well, but Oregon 
is the only one that makes it a prerequisite for deployment.

That being said, I'm confident enough in Oregon's ability to enforce this 
restriction that our problem with electronic voting is how to make it secure 
and make a paper trail from voting by telephone or online[1].

> That's why the US will be the next country to collapse under fiscal 
> mismanagement. I only hope it's as comparatively bloodless as the collapse 
> of the Soviet Union.  

And people actually have to ask me why I think the Oregon Territory (Oregon, 
Washington, ~Idaho) needs to secede and undergo a velvet revolution or become 
Canada's 14th province.


[1]  I can do my taxes online. I can renew my car registration online. I 
can request a new address for my driver's license online. I can reserve a 
campsite at any state park in Oregon online. I can register for unemployment 
and apply for almost any job in the state, public or private, through the 
state's website.  I'm even required under atrociously excessive penalty of 
law to go to sss.gov register to be part of a draft to commit atrocities 
against my will in a foreign land without body armor or adequate training.  
So why not something as basic as vote?

-- 
Paul Johnson
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Stephen]

On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 01:55:32PM -0400 or thereabouts, Roberto C. Sanchez 
wrote:
> Stephen wrote:
> > 
> > BTW even the U.S. has a commonwealth state -- Massachusetts, which still
> > refers to the Governor as "his excellency" a holdover from the British
> > tradition when it was the major of the 13 colonies, and the Governor,
> > was the Governor General, representative of the Queen of England.
> > 
> 
> Actually there are for states that are called commonwealths in the US

Oh cool. I couldn't remember if there was more than one, so I stuck with
what I knew for sure. Thanks for the correction.

-- 
Regards
Stephen
+
AWAKE! FEAR! FIRE! FOES! AWAKE!
FEAR! FIRE! FOES!
AWAKE! AWAKE!
-- J. R. R. Tolkien
+


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Jacob S]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:09:43 -0400
"Roberto C. Sanchez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Paul Johnson wrote:
> > 
> > That's typical in elections except ties, and not surprising nobody
> > bothered or wanted to check for absentee ballots.  This is one of
> > the two problems Oregon eliminated by going to vote by mail.
> > 
> 
> So, all voting is done by mail?  That's different.

Mostly. Read back in this thread for where the pros and cons of
Oregon's new system were already discussed.

Jacob
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Curt Howland]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 01 June 2006 15:22, [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to 
say:
> To my mind, that is when america stopped being a democracy.

The US was never a democracy. It was founded as a representitive 
republic of limited powers.

It hasn't been a republic since at least the time of a large number of 
people being forced at gun point to become "citizens" against their 
will, 1865.

- -- 
September 11th, 2001
The proudest day for gun control and central 
planning advocates in American history

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 09:39:28AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Come off it, Paul.  Even under the conditions that Gore's team asked 
> for
> on the recounts Bush won.  In fact only under one recout, one Gore's team
> *DIDN'T* ask for did Gore squeak by on a narrower margin than any of the 
> other
> recounts.
 The only count in which all the ballots were counted.

>>> Yeah, after they had excluded many (nearly all?) legitimate absentee
>>> ballots.  Many of which were sent in by military personnel.  You know,
>>> those people who tend to vote predominately Republican?
>> Besides, is it really practical to expect 6,000,000 ballots[0], most
>> of which are analog, to all be cast correctly and then counted
>> correctly?
>>
>> No.  Too much human intervention.
> 
> True.  But there's a big difference between human error and a court 
> decision blocking them from being counted.

Sigh.  There's no arguing with that idea, so I won't even try.

> To my mind, that is when america stopped being a democracy.

The USA is not, and has never been, a democracy.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Curt Howland]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 01 June 2006 14:39, "Roberto C. Sanchez" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say:
> > That's typical in elections except ties, and not surprising
> > nobody bothered or wanted to check for absentee ballots.  This is
> > one of the two problems Oregon eliminated by going to vote by
> > mail.
>
> So, all voting is done by mail?  That's different.

It actually solves a great many problems. There is a paper trail, 
which eliminates the greatest threat of electronic voting, 
undetectable fraud. It also is convenient for anyone and everyone 
equally, people can also vote early if they want.

Oregon has a great idea, I hope it spreads. The state where I live 
cannot even institute a state lottery without the entire process 
dripping corruption and bribery, but at least they did finally throw 
out electronic voting.

In every country that finally gets elections, a clear paper trail is 
one of the primary conditions. It would be sad if Americans, who 
supposedly stand for that sort of thing, were to so easily be lulled 
into allowing unauditable, unverifiable, invisible electronic 
ballots. Unfortunately, Americans have proven themselves to be 
extremely stupid, politically. That's why the US will be the next 
country to collapse under fiscal mismanagement. I only hope it's as 
comparatively bloodless as the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Curt-

- -- 
September 11th, 2001
The proudest day for gun control and central 
planning advocates in American history

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Curt Howland]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 01 June 2006 13:03, "Roberto C. Sanchez" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say:
> So, how would we implement liquid hydrogen or liquid helium cooling
> of the budget?

Throw in the politicians! Problem solved.

- -- 
September 11th, 2001
The proudest day for gun control and central 
planning advocates in American history

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[hendrik]

On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 09:39:28AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>>Come off it, Paul.  Even under the conditions that Gore's team asked 
> >>> for
> >>> on the recounts Bush won.  In fact only under one recout, one Gore's team
> >>> *DIDN'T* ask for did Gore squeak by on a narrower margin than any of the 
> >>> other
> >>> recounts.
> >>
> >> The only count in which all the ballots were counted.
> >>
> > Yeah, after they had excluded many (nearly all?) legitimate absentee
> > ballots.  Many of which were sent in by military personnel.  You know,
> > those people who tend to vote predominately Republican?
> 
> Besides, is it really practical to expect 6,000,000 ballots[0], most
> of which are analog, to all be cast correctly and then counted
> correctly?
> 
> No.  Too much human intervention.

True.  But there's a big difference between human error and a court 
decision blocking them from being counted.
To my mind, that is when america stopped being a democracy.

-- hendrik


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Paul Johnson wrote:
> 
> That's typical in elections except ties, and not surprising nobody bothered 
> or 
> wanted to check for absentee ballots.  This is one of the two problems Oregon 
> eliminated by going to vote by mail.
> 

So, all voting is done by mail?  That's different.

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Thursday 01 June 2006 07:39, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> Curt Howland wrote:
> > On Thursday 01 June 2006 09:52, Rich Johnson
> >
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say:
> >>>The budget?  ...waitthat's underflow.
> >
> > Naa, it's damage due to deliberate overclocking by politicians.
>
> So, how would we implement liquid hydrogen or liquid helium cooling of
> the budget?

Direct elections, and reinstate the death penalty if you don't vote?  

-- 
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP & Google Talk): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber: Because it's time to move forward  http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Thursday 01 June 2006 03:50, Rich Johnson wrote:
> On May 31, 2006, at 9:39 PM, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> > Pascal Hakim wrote:
> >> Australian governor-generals are chosen by the prime minister...
> >> (including John Kerr), and can be dismissed by the prime minister.
> >> Yes,
> >> we technically have a race condition at the top of our government.
> >>
> >> (But finally! An off-topic debian-user politics thread on
> >> *Australia*)
> >
> > That is hilarious.  I have never heard of a political situation
> > described as a race condition.  So, what is the political
> > equivalent of
> > a stack smash or a buffer overflow?
>
> The budget?  ...waitthat's underflow.

The budget is overflow.  It's the revenue that's underflow.  And not for lack 
of paying into it by the people who can least afford to...

-- 
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP & Google Talk): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber: Because it's time to move forward  http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Thursday 01 June 2006 06:29, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>Come off it, Paul.  Even under the conditions that Gore's team asked
> >> for on the recounts Bush won.  In fact only under one recout, one Gore's
> >> team *DIDN'T* ask for did Gore squeak by on a narrower margin than any
> >> of the other recounts.
> >
> > The only count in which all the ballots were counted.
>
> Yeah, after they had excluded many (nearly all?) legitimate absentee
> ballots.

That's typical in elections except ties, and not surprising nobody bothered or 
wanted to check for absentee ballots.  This is one of the two problems Oregon 
eliminated by going to vote by mail.

-- 
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP & Google Talk): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber: Because it's time to move forward  http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Stephen wrote:
> 
> BTW even the U.S. has a commonwealth state -- Massachusetts, which still
> refers to the Governor as "his excellency" a holdover from the British
> tradition when it was the major of the 13 colonies, and the Governor,
> was the Governor General, representative of the Queen of England.
> 

Actually there are for states that are called commonwealths in the US

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_%28United_States%29

-Roberto
-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Stephen]

On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 09:59:35AM -0500 or thereabouts, Ron Johnson wrote:



> Given your .au address, I presumed you are Australian.  The
> Australian Head of State is ... Elizabeth II.

As she is for the rest of the Commonwealth, but in name only. She is
obligated to follow the instructions of the individual commonwealth
elected heads of government.

Heck even some republics have a figure head of state, France for example
has a Prime Minister and a President. If memory serves, the Prime Minister 
is the defacto head of state, but the president has the power. It might be 
the other way around, but you get the idea, this is hardly a new concept, 
except probably to Americans. ;)

My country Canada, created our own Constitution separate from the British 
North America Act, in the early 80's. The Queen had to come over to sign 
the declaration, at the request of the Canadian Government. However, she
wasn't the deal maker, and never is.

She's still our figurehead head of state, represented by the Governor 
General whom is appointed by the Canadian Prime Minister, and which is 
rubber stamped by the reining monarch, as she must obey. This all goes 
back to the English inception of the Parliamentary system, where the 
monarch was given a figurehead role and removed from power.

BTW even the U.S. has a commonwealth state -- Massachusetts, which still
refers to the Governor as "his excellency" a holdover from the British
tradition when it was the major of the 13 colonies, and the Governor,
was the Governor General, representative of the Queen of England.

-- 
Regards
Stephen
+
There is a great discovery still to be made in Literature: that of
paying literary men by the quantity they do NOT write.
+


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Rich Johnson]

On Jun 1, 2006, at 10:43 AM, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:At least one already.  And she wasn't even elected for the two terms she was in office, so she can still serve two more terms. Edith Wilson is dead!

Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Katipo wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
> 
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Katipo wrote:
>>  
>>
>>> Mike McCarty wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>   
 This is a consequence of the fact that, in the USA, the Sovereign is
 the Electorate,
 
>>> Yes, but that's all rapidly changing, isn't it?
>>>   
>>
>> When was *your* Head of State elected?  Oh, wait, she wasn't, was she?
>>  
>>
> Now, now.
> 
> Just because I'm not American, don't assume I'm English.
> It's a big world out here.
> 
> I come from a country that currently has its second, elected, female
> head of state in office.

Given your .au address, I presumed you are Australian.  The
Australian Head of State is ... Elizabeth II.

> Oh, hang on a minute!
> How many female American presidents have there been?
> 
> We're funny people, we New Zealanders.
> We're not afraid of our women, like that.
> We actually like them taking care of the home front.
> It actually feels normal.
> 
> We've got more important things to do than the housework.
> Regards,

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Katipo wrote:
>
> Now, now.
> 
> Just because I'm not American, don't assume I'm English.
> It's a big world out here.
> 
> I come from a country that currently has its second, elected, female
> head of state in office.
> 
> Oh, hang on a minute!
> How many female American presidents have there been?
> 

At least one already.  And she wasn't even elected for the two terms she
was in office, so she can still serve two more terms.

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>Come off it, Paul.  Even under the conditions that Gore's team asked for
>>> on the recounts Bush won.  In fact only under one recout, one Gore's team
>>> *DIDN'T* ask for did Gore squeak by on a narrower margin than any of the 
>>> other
>>> recounts.
>>
>> The only count in which all the ballots were counted.
>>
> Yeah, after they had excluded many (nearly all?) legitimate absentee
> ballots.  Many of which were sent in by military personnel.  You know,
> those people who tend to vote predominately Republican?

Besides, is it really practical to expect 6,000,000 ballots[0], most
of which are analog, to all be cast correctly and then counted
correctly?

No.  Too much human intervention.

[0]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Presidential_Election#Florida_election_results


- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Katipo]

Ron Johnson wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Katipo wrote:
 


Mike McCarty wrote:



   


This is a consequence of the fact that, in the USA, the Sovereign is
the Electorate,
 


Yes, but that's all rapidly changing, isn't it?
   



When was *your* Head of State elected?  Oh, wait, she wasn't, was she?
 


Now, now.

Just because I'm not American, don't assume I'm English.
It's a big world out here.

I come from a country that currently has its second, elected, female 
head of state in office.


Oh, hang on a minute!
How many female American presidents have there been?

We're funny people, we New Zealanders.
We're not afraid of our women, like that.
We actually like them taking care of the home front.
It actually feels normal.

We've got more important things to do than the housework.
Regards,


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Curt Howland wrote:
> On Thursday 01 June 2006 09:52, Rich Johnson 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say:
> 
>>>The budget?  ...waitthat's underflow.
> 
> 
> Naa, it's damage due to deliberate overclocking by politicians.
> 

So, how would we implement liquid hydrogen or liquid helium cooling of
the budget?

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Rich Johnson wrote:
> 
> On May 31, 2006, at 9:39 PM, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> 
>> Pascal Hakim wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Australian governor-generals are chosen by the prime minister...
>>> (including John Kerr), and can be dismissed by the prime minister.  Yes,
>>> we technically have a race condition at the top of our government.
>>>
>>> (But finally! An off-topic debian-user politics thread on  *Australia*)
>>>
>>
>> That is hilarious.  I have never heard of a political situation
>> described as a race condition.  So, what is the political  equivalent of
>> a stack smash or a buffer overflow?
> 
> 
> OH!, I missed the obvious---BALLOT STUFFING!
> 
> Hey, you asked :-)
> 

Cool.  Then feature creep could be compared the current penchant of
congress for passing new, unenforcable, unnecessary and stupid laws.

We could also draw this analogy:

Windows -> do everything centrally and take rights away from the little guy

This is equivalent to the Democrat and neo-conservative approach to life

Linux/Unix -> small tools that do one job well and empower the individual

This would be the equivalent to the Libertarian and traditional
conservative approach to life

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Curt Howland]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 01 June 2006 09:52, Rich Johnson 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say:
> The budget?  ...waitthat's underflow.

Naa, it's damage due to deliberate overclocking by politicians.

- -- 
September 11th, 2001
The proudest day for gun control and central 
planning advocates in American history

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Rich Johnson]

On May 31, 2006, at 9:39 PM, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:


Pascal Hakim wrote:


Australian governor-generals are chosen by the prime minister...
(including John Kerr), and can be dismissed by the prime minister.  
Yes,

we technically have a race condition at the top of our government.

(But finally! An off-topic debian-user politics thread on  
*Australia*)




That is hilarious.  I have never heard of a political situation
described as a race condition.  So, what is the political  
equivalent of

a stack smash or a buffer overflow?


OH!, I missed the obvious---BALLOT STUFFING!

Hey, you asked :-)


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>>Come off it, Paul.  Even under the conditions that Gore's team asked for
>>on the recounts Bush won.  In fact only under one recout, one Gore's team
>>*DIDN'T* ask for did Gore squeak by on a narrower margin than any of the other
>>recounts.
> 
> 
> The only count in which all the ballots were counted.
> 
Yeah, after they had excluded many (nearly all?) legitimate absentee
ballots.  Many of which were sent in by military personnel.  You know,
those people who tend to vote predominately Republican?

>   Kinda pathetic to harp on this years after the fact.  Grow up.  My
> 
Kinda pathetic people insist on rewriting history.

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[hendrik]

On Wed, May 31, 2006 at 09:32:37AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
> > Just wait until Alito "elects" Bush to a third term as president of the US 
> > in 
> > a 5 to 4 swing decision.  Same as the last two elections, just change the 
> > names of the 7 people allowed to vote in the last two elections...
> 
> Come off it, Paul.  Even under the conditions that Gore's team asked for
> on the recounts Bush won.  In fact only under one recout, one Gore's team
> *DIDN'T* ask for did Gore squeak by on a narrower margin than any of the other
> recounts.

The only count in which all the ballots were counted.

  Kinda pathetic to harp on this years after the fact.  Grow up.  My
> candidate lost, too.  Don't see me harping on it, do you?
> 
> -- 
>  Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
>PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   |   And dream I do...
> ---+-
> 



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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Rich Johnson]

On May 31, 2006, at 9:39 PM, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:


Pascal Hakim wrote:


Australian governor-generals are chosen by the prime minister...
(including John Kerr), and can be dismissed by the prime minister.  
Yes,

we technically have a race condition at the top of our government.

(But finally! An off-topic debian-user politics thread on  
*Australia*)




That is hilarious.  I have never heard of a political situation
described as a race condition.  So, what is the political  
equivalent of

a stack smash or a buffer overflow?


The budget?  ...waitthat's underflow.


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Pascal Hakim wrote:
> 
> Australian governor-generals are chosen by the prime minister...
> (including John Kerr), and can be dismissed by the prime minister. Yes,
> we technically have a race condition at the top of our government.
> 
> (But finally! An off-topic debian-user politics thread on *Australia*)
> 

That is hilarious.  I have never heard of a political situation
described as a race condition.  So, what is the political equivalent of
a stack smash or a buffer overflow?

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Pascal Hakim]

On Wed, May 31, 2006 at 03:31:49PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > The Queen may be "Head of state" but the person with power here is the
> > Prime Minister...  The Queen is just a figurehead...
> 
> Australian constitutional crisis of 1975.  Unelected Governor-
> General Sir John Kerr forced the elected PM out of office.

Australian governor-generals are chosen by the prime minister...
(including John Kerr), and can be dismissed by the prime minister. Yes,
we technically have a race condition at the top of our government.

(But finally! An off-topic debian-user politics thread on *Australia*)

Pasc


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Wulfy wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Katipo wrote:
>>> Mike McCarty wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
 This is a consequence of the fact that, in the USA, the Sovereign is
 the Electorate,
>>> Yes, but that's all rapidly changing, isn't it?
>>
>> When was *your* Head of State elected?  Oh, wait, she wasn't, was she?
>>
>> - --
>> Ron Johnson, Jr.
>> Jefferson LA  USA
> 
> The Queen may be "Head of state" but the person with power here is the
> Prime Minister...  The Queen is just a figurehead...

Australian constitutional crisis of 1975.  Unelected Governor-
General Sir John Kerr forced the elected PM out of office.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Curt Howland]

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Hash: SHA1

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 13:39, Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was 
heard to say:
> > I see this claim constantly.  You know what, it is completely
> > without merit.  If the same thing had happened to "elect" Gore or
> > Kerry, you would likely be praising the system tfor having
> > "worked."
>
> No, I would still be criticizing it as broken, as I did in '96 when
> Clinton won a minority re-election.  Nor am I a Democrat.

That may be one of the worst aspects of having a large, 
interventionist government: People get to claim that the only reason 
someone would object is because they're not the ones presently in 
power. I, too, object to election by minority, and it has nothing to 
do with which face of the Party of State Power is showing at the 
moment.

To object to that power being wielded _at_all_ is completely outside 
of their ability to comprehend. Exactly like someone who has lived 
under "universal government healthcare" all their lives being unable 
to comprehend how someone would object to having health care paid for 
by taxation.

Even in the so-called "land of the free", the vast majority of people 
cannot grasp that roads used to be private.

What I find astounding is that these attitudes come from people on 
this list, a list specifically created for and concerning a system 
utilized productively by millions of people on a completely voluntary 
basis. I doubt anyone here is happy to pay $95 to Microsoft for 
software they do not want on their commodity hardware, just because 
it comes pre-installed. These same people derisively call it 
a "Microsoft Tax", and then turn around and say other taxes are just 
fine and it's silly to object, just because these are levied 
by "governments" rather than "corporations".

BTW, thanks to the Debian developers for all your hard work, libsound 
is working in Unstable again. On to the next bug!

Curt-

- -- 
September 11th, 2001
The proudest day for gun control and central 
planning advocates in American history

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Stephen]

On Wed, May 31, 2006 at 10:35:02AM -0700 or thereabouts, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Wednesday 31 May 2006 02:35, Wulfy wrote:
> 
> > The Queen may be "Head of state" but the person with power here is the
> > Prime Minister...  The Queen is just a figurehead...
> 
> She does occasionally excersize her power.  Most notably, back in the late 
> 1990s, she declared a vote for Quebec to secede as non-binding.  The 
> referendum failed without her help anyway, though.

Paul she has NO power, she's a figure head. It was simply public
relations, at the request of the then Canadian government. 

-- 
Regards
Stephen



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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 02:35, Wulfy wrote:

> The Queen may be "Head of state" but the person with power here is the
> Prime Minister...  The Queen is just a figurehead...

She does occasionally excersize her power.  Most notably, back in the late 
1990s, she declared a vote for Quebec to secede as non-binding.  The 
referendum failed without her help anyway, though.

-- 
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP & Google Talk): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber: Because it's time to move forward  http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Wulfy]

Ron Johnson wrote:

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Katipo wrote:

Mike McCarty wrote:




This is a consequence of the fact that, in the USA, the Sovereign is
the Electorate,

Yes, but that's all rapidly changing, isn't it?


When was *your* Head of State elected?  Oh, wait, she wasn't, was she?

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA


The Queen may be "Head of state" but the person with power here is the 
Prime Minister...  The Queen is just a figurehead...


--
Blessings

Wulfmann in the UK

Wulf Credo:
Respect the elders. Teach the young. Co-operate with the pack.
Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between.
Share your affections. Voice your opinion. Leave your Mark.


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Steve Lamb]

Paul Johnson wrote:
> Just wait until Alito "elects" Bush to a third term as president of the US in 
> a 5 to 4 swing decision.  Same as the last two elections, just change the 
> names of the 7 people allowed to vote in the last two elections...

Come off it, Paul.  Even under the conditions that Gore's team asked for
on the recounts Bush won.  In fact only under one recout, one Gore's team
*DIDN'T* ask for did Gore squeak by on a narrower margin than any of the other
recounts.  Kinda pathetic to harp on this years after the fact.  Grow up.  My
candidate lost, too.  Don't see me harping on it, do you?

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   |   And dream I do...
---+-



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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 04:27, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
> > Just wait until Alito "elects" Bush to a third term as president of the
> > US in a 5 to 4 swing decision.  Same as the last two elections, just
> > change the names of the 7 people allowed to vote in the last two
> > elections...
>
> I see this claim constantly.  You know what, it is completely without
> merit.  If the same thing had happened to "elect" Gore or Kerry, you
> would likely be praising the system tfor having "worked."

No, I would still be criticizing it as broken, as I did in '96 when Clinton 
won a minority re-election.  Nor am I a Democrat.

-- 
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP & Google Talk): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber: Because it's time to move forward  http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Ron Johnson]

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Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
>> Just wait until Alito "elects" Bush to a third term as president of the US 
>> in 
>> a 5 to 4 swing decision.  Same as the last two elections, just change the 
>> names of the 7 people allowed to vote in the last two elections...
>>
> 
> I see this claim constantly.  You know what, it is completely without
> merit.  If the same thing had happened to "elect" Gore or Kerry, you
> would likely be praising the system tfor having "worked."  Fact is, the
> procedures involving the supreme court in such cases were laid out long
> ago.  If you have a problem with them after the fact, then shame on you
> for not making yourself aware and trying to do something about it
> earlier.  Being part of the electorate is a right *and* a responsibility

I don't see why Paul Johnson has any basis for complaint.  After
all, he claims not to be an American...

> You know what I really don't understand?  How it happened with Gore and
> not one single Deomcrat came out afterward trying to seriously "fix" the
> rules that were a problem.  Crying about after it is done won't fix
> anything.

More profitable to leave the problem and spend time complaining to
the base, keeping them stirred up.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Gerard Sharpe]

Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:

Paul Johnson wrote:
  
Just wait until Alito "elects" Bush to a third term as president of the US in 
a 5 to 4 swing decision.  Same as the last two elections, just change the 
names of the 7 people allowed to vote in the last two elections...





I see this claim constantly.  You know what, it is completely without
merit.  If the same thing had happened to "elect" Gore or Kerry, you
would likely be praising the system tfor having "worked."  Fact is, the
procedures involving the supreme court in such cases were laid out long
ago.  If you have a problem with them after the fact, then shame on you
for not making yourself aware and trying to do something about it
earlier.  Being part of the electorate is a right *and* a responsibility

You know what I really don't understand?  How it happened with Gore and
not one single Deomcrat came out afterward trying to seriously "fix" the
rules that were a problem.  Crying about after it is done won't fix
anything.

-Roberto

  

I thought I subscribed to a debian list not one about US Politics...


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Paul Johnson wrote:
> 
> Just wait until Alito "elects" Bush to a third term as president of the US in 
> a 5 to 4 swing decision.  Same as the last two elections, just change the 
> names of the 7 people allowed to vote in the last two elections...
> 

I see this claim constantly.  You know what, it is completely without
merit.  If the same thing had happened to "elect" Gore or Kerry, you
would likely be praising the system tfor having "worked."  Fact is, the
procedures involving the supreme court in such cases were laid out long
ago.  If you have a problem with them after the fact, then shame on you
for not making yourself aware and trying to do something about it
earlier.  Being part of the electorate is a right *and* a responsibility

You know what I really don't understand?  How it happened with Gore and
not one single Deomcrat came out afterward trying to seriously "fix" the
rules that were a problem.  Crying about after it is done won't fix
anything.

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 23:10, Ron Johnson wrote:
> Katipo wrote:
> > Mike McCarty wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> >> This is a consequence of the fact that, in the USA, the Sovereign is
> >> the Electorate,
> >
> > Yes, but that's all rapidly changing, isn't it?
>
> When was *your* Head of State elected?  Oh, wait, she wasn't, was she?

Just wait until Alito "elects" Bush to a third term as president of the US in 
a 5 to 4 swing decision.  Same as the last two elections, just change the 
names of the 7 people allowed to vote in the last two elections...

-- 
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP & Google Talk): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber: Because it's time to move forward  http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Ron Johnson]

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Katipo wrote:
> Mike McCarty wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>>
>> This is a consequence of the fact that, in the USA, the Sovereign is
>> the Electorate,
> 
> Yes, but that's all rapidly changing, isn't it?

When was *your* Head of State elected?  Oh, wait, she wasn't, was she?

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Katipo]

Mike McCarty wrote:





This is a consequence of the fact that, in the USA, the Sovereign is
the Electorate,


Yes, but that's all rapidly changing, isn't it?
Regards,


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Mike McCarty]

Steve Lamb wrote:

[some excellent stuff]




[1] To explain for any non-Americans, it's a trick question.  The Declaration
of Independence states that rights are inalienable and self-evident.  The Bill
of Rights, part of the Constitution, enumerate these rights.  It lists them.


A minor point, it enumerates *some* of the rights.


It does not grant them.  This is an important distinction in granted versus
enumerated.  In the absence of the Bill of Rights, if they were granted said


Not to disagree, but to elaborate...

The purpose of the Constitution of the USA was for the People, and the
States voluntarily to give up some of their rights to a Federal
Government. The Constitution does not create any rights, but rather
it carefully states what rights were being given up and vested
in the new Government being created. Thus, the Federal Government
could not do anything that the People could not have done.


rights would not continue to exist.  Since it only lists them the implication
is if the Bill of Rights disappeared tomorrow, never to exist, we would still
have every right listed within it.  That is a subtle but powerful difference
to understand.  Most people don't.  Thus the division of the elites and proles.


This is a consequence of the fact that, in the USA, the Sovereign is
the Electorate, unlike in other countries, where the Sovereign is
usually a person, or the State.

Mike
--
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I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Matt Zagrabelny]

> You assume what is not now, nor never was.
> 
> And you do know what it means when you ass-u-me...?

i assume people on d-u will never user double-negatives. :)

-- 
Matt Zagrabelny - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (218) 726 8844
University of Minnesota Duluth
Information Technology Systems & Services
PGP key 1024D/84E22DA2 2005-11-07
Fingerprint: 78F9 18B3 EF58 56F5 FC85  C5CA 53E7 887F 84E2 2DA2

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lose.
-Jim Elliot


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 07:41 -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Monday 08 May 2006 19:35, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> > Paul Johnson wrote:
> > > That's like claiming you're paying twice to cross a toll bridge, never
> > > mind there are usually alternate (longer) routes and the toll goes away
> > > once the bridge is paid for...
> >
> > Never been to Florida, eh?  It is a state that is criss-crossed with
> > toll roads, where the toll was going to "go away" once the road was
> > payed for.  Some of the roads have been toll roads for something like 30
> > or 40 years.  The problem is that government gets addicted to the money.
> 
> My assumptions assume a working government, not Florida.

Florida somehow survives.  And the crime rate isn't even as high
as NYC's used to be.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA

"If the French were really intelligent, they'd speak English."
Wilfred Sheed


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Curt Howland]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Tuesday 09 May 2006 11:35, Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard 
to say:
> My assumptions assume a working government, not Florida.

You assume what is not now, nor never was.

And you do know what it means when you ass-u-me...?

- -- 
September 11th, 2001
The proudest day for gun control and central 
planning advocates in American history

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Monday 08 May 2006 19:35, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
> > That's like claiming you're paying twice to cross a toll bridge, never
> > mind there are usually alternate (longer) routes and the toll goes away
> > once the bridge is paid for...
>
> Never been to Florida, eh?  It is a state that is criss-crossed with
> toll roads, where the toll was going to "go away" once the road was
> payed for.  Some of the roads have been toll roads for something like 30
> or 40 years.  The problem is that government gets addicted to the money.

My assumptions assume a working government, not Florida.

-- 
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP & Google Talk): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber: Because it's time to move forward  http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 09:28 -0400, Matthias Julius wrote:
> "Roberto C. Sanchez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Paul Johnson wrote:
> >> 
> >> That's like claiming you're paying twice to cross a toll bridge, never 
> >> mind 
> >> there are usually alternate (longer) routes and the toll goes away once 
> >> the 
> >> bridge is paid for...
> >> 
> >
> > Never been to Florida, eh?  It is a state that is criss-crossed with
> > toll roads, where the toll was going to "go away" once the road was
> > payed for.  Some of the roads have been toll roads for something like 30
> > or 40 years.  The problem is that government gets addicted to the money.
> 
> Why should the government be different than everybody else?  It is up
> to the legislative to setup controls over the government.

Especially since government is made up of the same people as
"everybody else".

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA

"I need an expert on the pain I'm goin' thru, so I keep George on
the ol' turn table 'till I'm over you..."
Mark Chesnutt, "Just Playin' Possum"


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Matthias Julius]

"Roberto C. Sanchez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Paul Johnson wrote:
>> 
>> That's like claiming you're paying twice to cross a toll bridge, never mind 
>> there are usually alternate (longer) routes and the toll goes away once the 
>> bridge is paid for...
>> 
>
> Never been to Florida, eh?  It is a state that is criss-crossed with
> toll roads, where the toll was going to "go away" once the road was
> payed for.  Some of the roads have been toll roads for something like 30
> or 40 years.  The problem is that government gets addicted to the money.

Why should the government be different than everybody else?  It is up
to the legislative to setup controls over the government.

Matthias


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Paul Johnson wrote:
> 
> I read what you wrote, but what you suggest would mean, by extension, I 
> should 
> be able to choose who I flush my toilet through (as opposed to just the 
> city's sewer), whose streets I drive on (government monopoly on 
> transportation right now), and choose who I have for a president (supreme 
> court does that anymore).  But it's just not going to ever happen in the US.
> 

I think that you are confusing things which are a monopoly out of
necessity (e.g., roads, defense) and things which are a monopoly out of
convenience (e.g., schools, telecom).  In the former case, it is
difficult, if not impossible, to choose from one "provider" or another
becuase of the way in which the service is provided.  "Gee, I really
want to be defended by the Texas National Guard, becuase they do a
better job than the Pennsylvania National Guard.  Forget that I live in
Iowa."

Things like schools and telecommunications are monopolies of
convenience.  That is, as long as people think that everybody is
subsidizing everyone else, the government can just tell me which
provider to use (e.g., which phone company or which school district) and
I don't have to expend any brain cells to figure it out myself and I
don't have to see the "real cost."  Think about it.  With telecom,
people in high-density areas (cities) subsidize people in low-density
areas (country-side).  Of course, the "deregulation" of the telecom
industry is starting to change things.  But seriously, people who live
in the country should not get a free (or reduced fare) ride on the backs
of the city dwellers.

Of course, since telecom monopolies were established in the manner in
which they were established, everything had to be "equitable."

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Paul Johnson wrote:
> 
> That's like claiming you're paying twice to cross a toll bridge, never mind 
> there are usually alternate (longer) routes and the toll goes away once the 
> bridge is paid for...
> 

Never been to Florida, eh?  It is a state that is criss-crossed with
toll roads, where the toll was going to "go away" once the road was
payed for.  Some of the roads have been toll roads for something like 30
or 40 years.  The problem is that government gets addicted to the money.

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Monday 08 May 2006 17:17, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Paul E Condon wrote:
> > And, you get to *choose* something else for your own children, if you can
> > pay for it. But you are not paying twice. You are paying once, your share
> > for everybody, and once for your own.
>
> Uh, sorry, BZZZT, no.  If I am paying for everyone else's why aren't
> they paying for mine?  That's twice.

That's like claiming you're paying twice to cross a toll bridge, never mind 
there are usually alternate (longer) routes and the toll goes away once the 
bridge is paid for...

-- 
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Monday 08 May 2006 13:47, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Saturday 06 May 2006 06:55, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> > > Why so complicated? Just give people the option to *choose* between
> > > public or private SS programs. The same for schooling. If I send my
> > > children to a private school I wouldn't have to pay the tax and even
> > > get back what I already payed since I started working. That would
>
> make
>
> > > public schools compete against private schools.
> >
> > Let's do the same for city streets, the courts, civic buildings, sewer
>
> pipes,
>
> > and traffic lights while we're at it.  God knows I rarely to never use
>
> any of
>
> > that crap...
>
> I don't think you read what I wrote. Let me emphasize *again*:
> *_choose_*. A parent should be able to at *_choose_* whether he sends
> his children to a public or private school, without having to pay twice!
>
> A person should be able to *_choose_* whether he wants to use the
> public SS program or use similar private offerings.

I read what you wrote, but what you suggest would mean, by extension, I should 
be able to choose who I flush my toilet through (as opposed to just the 
city's sewer), whose streets I drive on (government monopoly on 
transportation right now), and choose who I have for a president (supreme 
court does that anymore).  But it's just not going to ever happen in the US.

-- 
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP & Google Talk): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber: Because it's time to move forward  http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Steve Lamb]

Paul E Condon wrote:
> And, you get to *choose* something else for your own children, if you can
> pay for it. But you are not paying twice. You are paying once, your share
> for everybody, and once for your own. 

Uh, sorry, BZZZT, no.  If I am paying for everyone else's why aren't they
paying for mine?  That's twice.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   |   And dream I do...
---+-



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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul E Condon]

On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 11:47:15PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > On Saturday 06 May 2006 06:55, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> > 
> > > Why so complicated? Just give people the option to *choose* between
> > > public or private SS programs. The same for schooling. If I send my
> > > children to a private school I wouldn't have to pay the tax and even
> > > get back what I already payed since I started working. That would
> make
> > > public schools compete against private schools.
> > 
> > Let's do the same for city streets, the courts, civic buildings, sewer
> pipes, 
> > and traffic lights while we're at it.  God knows I rarely to never use
> any of 
> > that crap...
> 
> I don't think you read what I wrote. Let me emphasize *again*:
> *_choose_*. A parent should be able to at *_choose_* whether he sends
> his children to a public or private school, without having to pay twice!
  ^^^
Public schools are for education other people's children. You pay for that
in your taxes whether or not you have children. It's part of the general
welfare. Keeps them off the streets. Hopefully, gives them enough training
so that you might be willing to hire them to pick you cotton, etc. Maybe
even reduces the need for more jails.

And, you get to *choose* something else for your own children, if you can
pay for it. But you are not paying twice. You are paying once, your share
for everybody, and once for your own. 

Of course, if you can't pay, you can't choose. And don't claim the current
tax rate is confiscatory. What would your money income be, if you were living
in a place without roads, sewers, courts, and schools for the proto-criminals?

-- 
Paul E Condon   
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Andrei Popescu]

Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Saturday 06 May 2006 06:55, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> 
> > Why so complicated? Just give people the option to *choose* between
> > public or private SS programs. The same for schooling. If I send my
> > children to a private school I wouldn't have to pay the tax and even
> > get back what I already payed since I started working. That would
make
> > public schools compete against private schools.
> 
> Let's do the same for city streets, the courts, civic buildings, sewer
pipes, 
> and traffic lights while we're at it.  God knows I rarely to never use
any of 
> that crap...

I don't think you read what I wrote. Let me emphasize *again*:
*_choose_*. A parent should be able to at *_choose_* whether he sends
his children to a public or private school, without having to pay twice!

A person should be able to *_choose_* whether he wants to use the
public SS program or use similar private offerings.

Regards
Andrei


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Rich Johnson]

On May 8, 2006, at 2:22 PM, Steve Lamb wrote:


Matthias Julius wrote:

To cite the U.S. Constitution
(from http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html):
,
| Section 8 - Powers of Congress
|
| The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
| Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
| Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
| Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
`


Thanks for that cite, goes to show another area the Feds are  
messing up.
Uniform taxation... yeah, and what's this with the progressive tax  
scale?  Not

very uniform to me.

[...snip...]
You might want to read the 16th Amendment. (http:// 
www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am16)..

,
| Amendment XVI
|
| The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes,  
from whatever source derived, without
| apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any  
census or enumeration.

`
...as well as the various court rulings and Congressional Research  
Service reports.  You might find the analysis posted at http:// 
www.thepriceofliberty.org/04/04/16/greenslade.htm interesting.


FWIW, ''uniform'' doesn't mean ''flat''.  It just means geographic  
uniformity for the rules of taxation--i.e. not favoring one state  
over another.  If you're so inclined,  you could try to argue _de  
facto_ non-uniformity--e.g. CT with a higher median income pays  
higher federal incomde taxes.  Good luck on that one, though!



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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Curt Howland]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Monday 08 May 2006 13:33, Matthias Julius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
was heard to say:
> The U.S. Constitution does not list all 'jobs' of the government.

Yes, it does. If an additional job is required, amend it so that the 
government has that power deligated to it. For instance, the 
prohibition of drinking alcohol.

What may come as a surprise to many people is that the "Great 
Experiment", as it is often called, had nothing to do with democracy. 
Democracy has been around since at least 800BC in various 
well-documented forms. The "Great Experiment" was to create a central 
government with explicit, limited powers. Those governments 
with "general" powers were to be the individual states that make up 
the United States.

That means that if it is not explicitly listed, the United States 
government has no power to do it. Period. At all. Not even in 
an "emergency".

It is also important to remember that this document was written in a 
different time. One cannot simply look at the common usage 200 years 
later to understand a specific word. Flowery language with lots of 
explanation that would not work in an English language highschool 
term paper today was common at the time.

That is one reason why there is confusion about the existence of 
explanatory clauses. Matthias falls into that trap:

> | Section 8 - Powers of Congress
> |
> | The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
> | Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
> | Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
> | Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United
> | States;

Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties and 
excises. All duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout 
the United States. The rest is exposition, explaining why but 
otherwise granting no power.

> The glossary for Welfare says...

Welfare, as it is known today, has nothing to do with it. Congress is 
granted the power to built post roads, because the general welfare of 
the States are improved thereby. Can you understand the difference 
between explicit powers granted, and the "general powers" that you 
are trying to interpret into the document?

>  It does not say the government is to build roads (except Post
> Roads).

Correct. The entire Interstate Highway System was justified as a 
defense expenditure. Go read some history about how the roads were 
designed around troop and tank carrying trucks, and aircraft using 
the roads as runways. (hint: by law, every Interstate highway must 
have one perfectly straight mile out of every 5 miles of road, for 
use as a military runway)

> It does not mention the building of levees or similar 
> structures, supporting hurricane victims or even bringing
> humanitarian aid to people in foreign countries. There are 
> certainly many other things the U.S. government does and uses tax
> money for that are not explicitely mentioned in the constitution.

Exactly. Everything you bring up is blatantly unconstitutional.

Murder is illegal, yet murders occur. There is nothing about grabbing 
and using power illegally that violates human nature. It is, in fact, 
the one thing that you can really count on: Power Corrupts.

> I would put education into that category.  It is a necessity for
> prosperity.

I would never presume to stop you from spending your money on 
education, nor do I want you to prevent me from doing the same. 
Please do not initiate force against me when I have done you no harm.

> To summarize: The congress has the power to collect taxes for
> education.  IMHO
>
> Matthias

And your opinion is explicitly wrong. I suggest you go read some of 
the original documentation, since it's obvious you have not:

http://www.constitution.org/afp/afp.htm

http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa00.htm

Will this request to actually read the documentation on the subject 
about which you are talking fall on the same deaf ears (blind eyes?) 
as those concerning the dangers and failures of "gun control"?

How would you expect anyone to take you seriously in a discussion of 
the Debian Free Software Guidelines, for example, if you had never 
read anything but a few paragraphs from the GPLv1?

That's one of the problems of an online debate: No matter how clearly 
the information is presented, there is no way to know if it was read 
until the same people show up later and make the same mistakes they 
were making before. It's quite sad.

Curt-

- -- 
September 11th, 2001
The proudest day for gun control and central 
planning advocates in American history

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Steve Lamb]

Matthias Julius wrote:
> To cite the U.S. Constitution
> (from http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html):
> ,
> | Section 8 - Powers of Congress
> | 
> | The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
> | Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
> | Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
> | Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
> `

Thanks for that cite, goes to show another area the Feds are messing up.
Uniform taxation... yeah, and what's this with the progressive tax scale?  Not
very uniform to me.

> I would put education into that category.  It is a necessity for
> prosperity.

> To summarize: The congress has the power to collect taxes for
> education.  IMHO

Operative word, opinion.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   |   And dream I do...
---+-



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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Matthias Julius]

"Roberto C. Sanchez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> As far as civic buildings and courts, it's obvious that you are either
> just being argumentative or simply do not understand the role of
> government.  Civic buildings and courts (and roads and traffic signage,
> for that matter) directly support the dailiy functioning of the
> government.  In the US at least, things like courts and other government
> functions are enumerated in the constitution.  Those include things like
> the military, treasury, and so on.  There is not a single word in the
> constitution about the government providing public education.  You know
> why?  It's not the government's job.  Why do you refuse to see that?

The U.S. Constitution does not list all 'jobs' of the government.  It
does not say the government is to build roads (except Post Roads).  It
does not mention the building of levees or similar structures,
supporting hurricane victims or even bringing humanitarian aid to
people in foreign countries.  There are certainly many other things
the U.S. government does and uses tax money for that are not
explicitely mentioned in the constitution.

To cite the U.S. Constitution
(from http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html):
,
| Section 8 - Powers of Congress
| 
| The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
| Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
| Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
| Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
`

The glossary for Welfare says
(http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#WELFARE):
,
| Welfare
|
| welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [

Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Rich Johnson]

On May 6, 2006, at 4:27 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:


On Saturday 06 May 2006 06:55, Andrei Popescu wrote:


Why so complicated? Just give people the option to *choose* between
public or private SS programs. The same for schooling. If I send my
children to a private school I wouldn't have to pay the tax and even
get back what I already payed since I started working. That would  
make

public schools compete against private schools.


Let's do the same for city streets, the courts, civic buildings,  
sewer pipes,
and traffic lights while we're at it.  God knows I rarely to never  
use any of

that crap...

LOL, ...The sewers have the literal purpose that your neighbors can  
avoid using your crap.





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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Rich Johnson]

On May 6, 2006, at 5:11 PM, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:


Paul, why do you persist?  Infrastructure != education.  Those are two
completely different things.  Without roads, emergency services could
not get to you.  Without traffic lights and other signage, the roads
(which are needed for things like emergency services) would be a  
public

menace.

[...snip...]
Ah, but education _is_ part of the intellectual and cultural  
infrastructure we all share.



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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Curt Howland]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


> Infrastructure != education.  Those are two
> completely different things.

I disagree only because the same argument is used to support both
efforts by "government": That without government doing it "for the
good of all", there would be people who would not do it and therefore
everyone would suffer.

It's the same argument used for every governmental program. Even the
military is justified by saying that without the ability to maintain
a standing military, if the time came for action there would be
insufficient time/money/whatever to do the needed thing.

Not even *roads* are mentioned in the Constitution, beyond simple
post roads to support the post office. Now why wouldn't such an
important infrastructure be mentioned? Because private turnpikes
were doing a very good job already. Jefferson mentions cutting
several days off his commute between Montecello(sp?) and
Philadelphia when he chose to take a new private road, and that was
just after the Declaration of Independence.

I really suggest _The Voluntary City_, ISBN 4-472-08837-8

Chapter 4 goes into how the turnpikes functioned. This isn't pie-eyed
Libertarianism, this is historical fact.

Curt-


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planning advocates in American history

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Saturday 06 May 2006 14:11, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
> > On Saturday 06 May 2006 06:55, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> >>Why so complicated? Just give people the option to *choose* between
> >>public or private SS programs. The same for schooling. If I send my
> >>children to a private school I wouldn't have to pay the tax and even
> >>get back what I already payed since I started working. That would make
> >>public schools compete against private schools.
> >
> > Let's do the same for city streets, the courts, civic buildings, sewer
> > pipes, and traffic lights while we're at it.  God knows I rarely to never
> > use any of that crap...
>
> Paul, why do you persist?  Infrastructure != education.  Those are two
> completely different things.  Without roads, emergency services could
> not get to you.  Without traffic lights and other signage, the roads
> (which are needed for things like emergency services) would be a public
> menace.

People need to learn something to be able to read the street signs and 
maintain that infrastructure.

-- 
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Saturday 06 May 2006 06:55, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> 
> 
>>Why so complicated? Just give people the option to *choose* between
>>public or private SS programs. The same for schooling. If I send my
>>children to a private school I wouldn't have to pay the tax and even
>>get back what I already payed since I started working. That would make
>>public schools compete against private schools.
> 
> 
> Let's do the same for city streets, the courts, civic buildings, sewer pipes, 
> and traffic lights while we're at it.  God knows I rarely to never use any of 
> that crap...
> 

Paul, why do you persist?  Infrastructure != education.  Those are two
completely different things.  Without roads, emergency services could
not get to you.  Without traffic lights and other signage, the roads
(which are needed for things like emergency services) would be a public
menace.

As far as civic buildings and courts, it's obvious that you are either
just being argumentative or simply do not understand the role of
government.  Civic buildings and courts (and roads and traffic signage,
for that matter) directly support the dailiy functioning of the
government.  In the US at least, things like courts and other government
functions are enumerated in the constitution.  Those include things like
the military, treasury, and so on.  There is not a single word in the
constitution about the government providing public education.  You know
why?  It's not the government's job.  Why do you refuse to see that?

-Roberto

-- 
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http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Saturday 06 May 2006 06:55, Andrei Popescu wrote:

> Why so complicated? Just give people the option to *choose* between
> public or private SS programs. The same for schooling. If I send my
> children to a private school I wouldn't have to pay the tax and even
> get back what I already payed since I started working. That would make
> public schools compete against private schools.

Let's do the same for city streets, the courts, civic buildings, sewer pipes, 
and traffic lights while we're at it.  God knows I rarely to never use any of 
that crap...

-- 
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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Andrei Popescu]

"Monique Y. Mudama" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Even though I just ripped into you a few posts ago, you do have a
> point here.  It would be interesting if social security could be
> altered so that (this is just off the top of my head here, so I'm sure
> it's not by any means perfect, but maybe the glimmering of an idea):
> 
> 1) By default, everyone pays into SS
> 
> 2) Instead of the current system, every person has an individual SS
> account, from which their own retirement would later be drawn
> 
> 3) That account would invest in CDs or some other extremely low-risk
> setup.  Perhaps it could work like a bank instead, with an interest
rate
> based on balance (I'll admit I don't know enough about how banks work
to
> be sure that could work).
> 
> 4) There would be a non-trivial, optional exam.  If one passed the
exam,
> one could choose what to do with the money that would typically be
given
> to SS: leave it there, invest it, spend it on wine, women and song.
> Whatever.  But the exam would have to be good enough to ensure that
the
> taker is financially well-educated, and taking the exam would have to
be
> expensive enough to be a deterrent (shouldn't be a problem since it
> would have to cover the costs of formulating the exam, etc).

Why so complicated? Just give people the option to *choose* between
public or private SS programs. The same for schooling. If I send my
children to a private school I wouldn't have to pay the tax and even
get back what I already payed since I started working. That would make
public schools compete against private schools.

Andrei


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Andrei Popescu]

"Monique Y. Mudama" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Even though I just ripped into you a few posts ago, you do have a
> point here.  It would be interesting if social security could be
> altered so that (this is just off the top of my head here, so I'm sure
> it's not by any means perfect, but maybe the glimmering of an idea):
> 
> 1) By default, everyone pays into SS
> 
> 2) Instead of the current system, every person has an individual SS
> account, from which their own retirement would later be drawn
> 
> 3) That account would invest in CDs or some other extremely low-risk
> setup.  Perhaps it could work like a bank instead, with an interest
rate
> based on balance (I'll admit I don't know enough about how banks work
to
> be sure that could work).
> 
> 4) There would be a non-trivial, optional exam.  If one passed the
exam,
> one could choose what to do with the money that would typically be
given
> to SS: leave it there, invest it, spend it on wine, women and song.
> Whatever.  But the exam would have to be good enough to ensure that
the
> taker is financially well-educated, and taking the exam would have to
be
> expensive enough to be a deterrent (shouldn't be a problem since it
> would have to cover the costs of formulating the exam, etc).

Why so complicated? Just give people the option to *choose* between
public or private SS programs. The same for schooling. If I send my
children to a private school I wouldn't have to pay the tax and even
get back what I already payed since I started working. That would make
public schools compete against private schools.

Andrei


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-05-01 17:27:06, schrieb Matthias Julius:
> Curt Howland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > For $200, you can get the Robinson Curriculum, a complete K-12 home 
> > study kit, except math books. Math books are $50 each, new, approx 
> > one per year depending on student speed and aptitude of course.
> >
> > So even at the slowest, full 13 years worth of math books and the rest 
> > of it, is $850. Total. And you get to resell or reuse the math books.
> 
> How do you do that when you have to go to work?

Any problems?

O have done this while I was in the french Foreign Legion and I have
studied by correspondence at the "Fernuniversitaet Haagen" in Germany.

You do 8 hours/day your Job, go home and study another 3-4 hours..

I had to pay 200 DM (100 Euro) per month for the study plus books, ...

> > THOUSAND DOLLARS) per student EACH YEAR, EVERY YEAR, and it's only 
> > going up.
> 
> Why is that so?  Just because it is a public school?  Why is a public
> school by definition so different from a private school?  Is there no
> way of making a public school more (cost-)efficient?

Yes the y are, but it is desirable?
(It is politic)

Greetings
Michelle Konzack


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Thursday 04 May 2006 21:05, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
> > Ugh.  San Fran.  It's like a conservative Seattle with worse weather.
>
> Paul, you almost owed me a new keyboard over that.  (I happened to have
> a mouthful of beverage when I read that line).

Heh, it's funny because it's true...

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

Paul Johnson wrote:
> 
> Ugh.  San Fran.  It's like a conservative Seattle with worse weather.
> 

Paul, you almost owed me a new keyboard over that.  (I happened to have
a mouthful of beverage when I read that line).

-Roberto

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Matthew R. Dempsky]

On Thu, May 04, 2006 at 11:26:45AM -0400, Matthias Julius wrote:
> "Roberto C. Sanchez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > There are other ways.  Profit, however, is provably the most effective.
> 
> Below you say charities and church would setup more schools
> if they had not to compete against public schools.  Profit is
> certainly no motive there.

Correct, and that doesn't contradict what he said.


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Paul Johnson]

On Thursday 04 May 2006 17:18, Curt Howland wrote:
> gpgkeys: HTTP fetch error 7: couldn't connect: eof
>
> On Thursday 04 May 2006 19:32, Rich Johnson was heard to say:
> > You're talking to one with deep VT roots here--though raised in NY
> > hard by the VT border.   Folks do put food on the table using
> > guns.The take on the land I hold there  runs ~4-5 bucks/sq mi/
> > yr.  Those ''nuisance'' laws come in handy for off-season pest
> > removal.  Tasty too!
>
> Ok, yes, the "come here" verses "been here" now makes sense. Of course
> I understand that only someone born there is ever really native. My
> father retired to Vermont and I spent a lot of time there, as well as
> living in Massachusetts for several years.
>
> There is nothing like Route 2 on a motorcycle, fresh maple syrup and
> apple pie with cheddar cheese.

I wonder if there's an uninteresting part of US-2.  Couer d'Alene had a really 
high let's-not-stop-in-this-town, let's-floor-it-to-the-next-town-instead 
kind of feel to it thanks to the Aryan Nation (they're gone now, things have 
probably changed for the better since then).  And so did Bonner's Ferry 
(downtown is essentially a factory outlet strip mall).  The only thing that 
kept us from stopping for the night on BC-97 in Creston, BC was lightning 
struck a tree when we were a quarter mile from it, and the tree fell across 
the highway just a few thousand feet from the international boundary in front 
of  a cabin with a huge grass meadow lawn (they let us camp in their field 
for the night until IDOT could make it to the border with a log truck and 
some chainsaws, which we woke up to early the next morning).

> Cities are sewers. Even if they're beautiful, like San Francisco,
> they're rotten in some other way (like the government of San
> Francisco).

Ugh.  San Fran.  It's like a conservative Seattle with worse weather.

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Curt Howland]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 04 May 2006 19:32, Rich Johnson was heard to say:
> You're talking to one with deep VT roots here--though raised in NY
> hard by the VT border.   Folks do put food on the table using
> guns.The take on the land I hold there  runs ~4-5 bucks/sq mi/
> yr.  Those ''nuisance'' laws come in handy for off-season pest
> removal.  Tasty too!

Ok, yes, the "come here" verses "been here" now makes sense. Of course 
I understand that only someone born there is ever really native. My 
father retired to Vermont and I spent a lot of time there, as well as 
living in Massachusetts for several years.

There is nothing like Route 2 on a motorcycle, fresh maple syrup and 
apple pie with cheddar cheese.

> Only troopers carry handguns.

Considering the "back-up guns" I saw folks in Vermont traveling with 
during hunting season, I'm not sure I would call that a unqualified 
statement. Maybe they're the only ones not carrying concealed most of 
the time. Also considering the substantially "frightened" types who 
moved there 30 years ago, keeping quiet about Vermont's liberal 
firearms laws would keep those "newcomers" from making political 
noise about it.

> Alas, I'm in Boston most of the time now.  It's a different world.

No kidding! I tried very hard to stay on the west side of the Quabin, 
the same way I tried to stay "upstate" in NY. Same reason, too.

Cities are sewers. Even if they're beautiful, like San Francisco, 
they're rotten in some other way (like the government of San 
Francisco).

Curt-


- -- 
September 11th, 2001
The proudest day for gun control and central 
planning advocates in American history

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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Rich Johnson]

On May 4, 2006, at 7:03 PM, Curt Howland wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On Thursday 04 May 2006 17:55, Rich Johnson was heard to say:

So move to VT and live closer to your dream.  You can even join the
ranks of those railing against the flatlanders as you're out
looking for dinner.  But beware, you'll always be a "come here",
never a "been here".


What? That makes no sense what so ever, unless you are trapped into
the "survivalist" cave-dweller image fed to you by Hollywood in the
early 1980's.


You're talking to one with deep VT roots here--though raised in NY  
hard by the VT border.   Folks do put food on the table using  
guns.The take on the land I hold there  runs ~4-5 bucks/sq mi/ 
yr.  Those ''nuisance'' laws come in handy for off-season pest  
removal.  Tasty too!


Only troopers carry handguns.

Alas, I'm in Boston most of the time now.  It's a different world.


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Re: OT: Politics [Was:Social Contract]

[Curt Howland]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 04 May 2006 17:55, Rich Johnson was heard to say:
> So move to VT and live closer to your dream.  You can even join the
> ranks of those railing against the flatlanders as you're out
> looking for dinner.  But beware, you'll always be a "come here",
> never a "been here".

What? That makes no sense what so ever, unless you are trapped into 
the "survivalist" cave-dweller image fed to you by Hollywood in the 
early 1980's.

> On May 3, 2006, at 6:09 PM, Curt Howland wrote:
> > I know it's easy to equate availability with misuse, but if you
> > would bother to read the statistical analysis that have been
> > posted to this thread over and over, you would understand your
> > error.
>
> I've never confused the two.

It has been stated explicitly that the greater the legal availability 
of firearms, the greater the resultant deaths by firearms. This has 
been said regardless of the facts, statistics and sources repeatedly 
cited. It is religion, immune to the inconvenience of reason or 
facts.

And as has been said many times and in many ways, religion is a lousy 
basis for legislation.

Curt-

- -- 
September 11th, 2001
The proudest day for gun control and central 
planning advocates in American history

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