Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
Michael B Allen wrote: On Tuesday 06 January 2004 11:05 pm, Michael B Allen wrote: Testing might be the release level you are looking for... (I found Stable to be just a tad too old for my tastes as a desktop) Good thing I'm running a headless Internet server :) Mike I have 2 pieces of advice that you may want to follow. 1. MC (MidNite Commander) is your friend. Install it if you have not done so. 2. APT-Listbugs is your blood brother. It will keep you out of trouble when upgrading. -- John Foster Advance-Computing Systems We build amazing servers! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
> On Tuesday 06 January 2004 11:05 pm, Michael B Allen wrote: > Testing might be the release level you are looking for... > (I found Stable to be just a tad too old for my tastes as a desktop) Good thing I'm running a headless Internet server :) Mike -- A program should be written to model the concepts of the task it performs rather than the physical world or a process because this maximizes the potential for it to be applied to tasks that are conceptually similar and, more important, to tasks that have not yet been conceived. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
On Tuesday 06 January 2004 11:05 pm, Michael B Allen wrote: > Personally I never used their services anyway so I could care less. I still > use RH 7.3 on all my Linux machines (quite a few). The problem I'm faced > with now is not a feeling of abandonment but finding a boring, stable, > consistent system. Heh I hear ya, I went from my muchly patched SuSE 7.3 frankenbox, to Debian Sid about six months ago. So far I havn't had anything major break... (there was a period where KDE was b0rked (No comments from the Gnomers or the WindowMakers please) but that was quickly handled.) Testing might be the release level you are looking for... (I found Stable to be just a tad too old for my tastes as a desktop) -- T3H quIc/< 6roWn Ph0x0r jUmP3D ovER T3h 14zY do9 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 03:06:18PM -0500, Michael B Allen wrote: > This was very useful information Derrick. The text mode support for querying, > updating, and particularly installing packages with apt-* and dpkg is indeed far > superior to rpm. It was very easy to install postfix-tls (of course configuration > appears to be another issue entirely :) > > Ok. I am well on my way to being hooked on Debian. I don't know about postfix but where possible, let Debian configure things, or do it "the debian way" -- kernels and X spring to mind, or your configuration will get clobbered by an upgrade. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
This was very useful information Derrick. The text mode support for querying, updating, and particularly installing packages with apt-* and dpkg is indeed far superior to rpm. It was very easy to install postfix-tls (of course configuration appears to be another issue entirely :) Ok. I am well on my way to being hooked on Debian. Thanks, Mike -- A program should be written to model the concepts of the task it performs rather than the physical world or a process because this maximizes the potential for it to be applied to tasks that are conceptually similar and, more important, to tasks that have not yet been conceived. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 05:18:08AM -0500, Michael B Allen wrote: [...] | How is support for UTF-8 locales? I just realized that I forgot to answer this question. I've been using 'en_US.UTF-8' as my locale for some time now. Many applications handle it very well, though some don't. Particularly anything based on GTK+ 1.2 doesn't handle any multi-byte locate very well. The only GTK+ 1.2 app I still use regularly is gnucash. It ends up displaying an outline box in between every character. To solve that, I created a script I use to run gnucash to set the locate to just en_US for that process. Everything else that I use has already moved on to GTK+ 2 or uses a different toolkit and en_US.UTF-8 has at the least no adverse affect on it and sometimes is an improvement too. Some GTK+ 1.2 apps can deal with a UTF-8 locale. None of this is debian-specific, FWIW. -D -- The teaching of the wise is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death. Proverbs 13:14 www: http://dman13.dyndns.org/~dman/jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 06:16:09PM +, Colin Watson wrote: | On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 04:09:16PM -0200, Leandro GuimarÃes Faria Corcete Dutra wrote: | > Em Ter, 2004-01-06 Ãs 08:18, Michael B Allen escreveu: | > > What surprises can a RH user expect? | > the fact that stable is | > obsolete, so one is almost forced to upgrade to testing. | | I don't think this last is as true as people keep saying. Stable's quite | usable. Stable is quite usable, unless you are used to (and dependent on) new features in new versions of software that isn't in stable. Coming from Red Hat 7.3 this might not be such a major factor because RH7.3 is older than Woody is. When I first switched, from RH 6.1 to 7.0 and then to potato, I found I was missing a lot of things. OTOH, my RH6.1 system was newer in several ways than the 7.0 installation was because I was following upstream development on a number of things (including gnome). I couldn't even run gnome on potato, because my panel config files utilzed features from the newer panel that wasn't in potato. (which is my own fault, for keeping my config files :-)) Once I became familiar with potato, though, I upgraded to sid because (IIRC) there was no "testing" at the time. I think it comes down to personal expectations. If you expect the "latest and greatest" then you trade off tried-and-true stability for it. I fall in this category. However, I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with debian stable, apart from the agonizingly long release cycles. (but we won't go there in this thread or on this list :-)) -D -- Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. James 1:27 www: http://dman13.dyndns.org/~dman/jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 10:14:09PM -0500, Michael B Allen wrote: | > Back when I used RedHat I always found it to be a pain the way you | > have to manually track down, and rebuild, package depedencies. | > | > | So I thought I'd try debian as it seems a little more consistent. | > | Is this true? | > | > Debian includes all of its packages in one place, and automatically | > builds all of them. Using apt (aptitude is a good visual front-end) | > you won't have to track down dependencies of a given package when you | > install or upgrade. | > | | However, from reading the APT HOWTO it does not appear to be easy to | escape the dependency system. Well, true. You wouldn't want to have a program installed without all of the necessary libraries and such because it wouldn't run then. The difference is the amount of manual effort that goes into satisfying dependencies. | For example, I need to install postfix SASL + TLS for SMTP_AUTH which is not | supported by default. You need to create custom packages. The base 'postfix' package doesn't have SASL or TLS. However, the postfix-tls package has both. So the correct answer is # aptitude install postfix-tls to add TLS and AUTH support to the installed postfix package. | On Redhat I used the following description: | | http://postfix.state-of-mind.de/patrick.koetter/smtpauth/ | | I just removed the existing MTA, built new RPMs with the right options and | installed them ignoring whatever dependecy other packages may have had. With debian you would usually follow this procedure to make minor variations on an existing package: # aptitude install fakeroot fakeroot is a great tool for fooling a build system into thinking it is root when it isn't (so that permissions and stuff are correct on built files) # apt-get build-dep postfix this is to install all -dev packages and what-not the build system may need for this package $ apt-get source postfix Get the source that the debian package was built from $ cd postfix-2.0.16 (the newly created directory containing the source) $ $EDITOR ./debian/rules Here you edit the rules for building the package, such as altering config options and the like. You can even edit the source to apply some patch or to make a modification of your own. $ $EDITOR ./debian/changelog Create a new entry and bump the version number slightly (eg change 2.0.16-1 to 2.0.16-1.1) $ fakeroot ./debian/rules binary # cd .. # dpkg -i postfix_2.0.16-1.1_i386.deb (whatever the full file name ends up being, I'm too lazy to derive it now and ought to be sleeping :-)) This may look daunting at a first glance, but really it isn't quite simple and straightforward. (assuming you don't create any build errors while you edit the source) In doing this, you haven't created any dependency problems at all. The new package drops in place as an upgrade to the existing one (from the debian repository). The new custom package fulfills all the dependencies it is supposed to. | If I use debian it sounds like using custom packages is more | difficult. I'll have to create a file with equivs-contol and then | edit it. That's not so bad but knowing what to put in it bothers me. equivs is another option. Use equivs if you want to merely trick the package system into thinking you have such-and-such dependency met. This is most useful if you want to build something from source (eg a brand new MTA (such as exim 4, almost 2 years ago when debian didn't have it)) and need to tell the package system about it. I have used equivs on occaision. To determine what you need in the "fake" package generated by equivs, just look at what dependencies it is supposed to fulfill. The file format for debian "control" files is really quite simple and straightforward and basic usage can be picked up simply by reading other control files (in fact, that's the most I've done with them). The syntax is just like output from 'apt-cache show' and very similar to what aptitude shows for a package's detail. HTH, -D -- Micros~1 : For when quality, reliability and security just aren't that important! www: http://dman13.dyndns.org/~dman/jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
> On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 06:16:09PM +, Colin Watson wrote: >> > > What surprises can a RH user expect? >> > >> >I guess the biggest hurdles would be the text-mode, no-detection >> > installer (do a system inventory first) and the fact that stable is >> > obsolete, so one is almost forced to upgrade to testing. >> >> I don't think this last is as true as people keep saying. Stable's quite >> usable. > > agreed. stable is entirely usable. the fact that there's a whole new > world of usability on the way--when sarge goes stable--shouldn't be an I am committed to stable for several reasons. One is that the installation I'm running is a Virtual Private Server running User Mode Linux running three time zones away. Two, the UML images offer only debian stable as an option. Besides, it's an 80MB server installation. The next largest installation was Fedora Core 1 at 450MB. I get the feeling the ISP wants people to use Debian. > actually, i've yet to hear/read signs of significant gratitude from the > new influx of rh refugees for the quality of support that has been > extended to them on this list--not that it wouldn't happen, anyway. your > commercial distro went cost productive, and then dumped you Actually the controversy surrounding the change in policy is a little overrated. Their distibution hasn't really changed. I think they would like to disconnect with low-revenue customers but you can still download and use whatever version. It's just the update service that has changed. Personally I never used their services anyway so I could care less. I still use RH 7.3 on all my Linux machines (quite a few). The problem I'm faced with now is not a feeling of abandonment but finding a boring, stable, consistent system. I get the feeling people doing the RH think like to install a new version every year just so they can get the latest translucent cartoon menus. I use WindowMaker on my laptop and all my other machines are either X-less or it isn't used. And big thanks all around for catching me :) Mike -- A program should be written to model the concepts of the task it performs rather than the physical world or a process because this maximizes the potential for it to be applied to tasks that are conceptually similar and, more important, to tasks that have not yet been conceived. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 06:16:09PM +, Colin Watson wrote: > On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 04:09:16PM -0200, Leandro Guimar?es Faria Corcete Dutra > wrote: > > Em Ter, 2004-01-06 ?s 08:18, Michael B Allen escreveu: > > > Is 3.0r1 glibc 2.3. > > > > Don't remember. But I guess you will upgrade to GLibC 2.4 when you > > upgrade to testing in order to get Gnome 2. > > There's no such thing as glibc 2.4 yet. > > > > What surprises can a RH user expect? > > > > I guess the biggest hurdles would be the text-mode, no-detection > > installer (do a system inventory first) and the fact that stable is > > obsolete, so one is almost forced to upgrade to testing. > > I don't think this last is as true as people keep saying. Stable's quite > usable. > > Cheers, > > -- > Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > agreed. stable is entirely usable. the fact that there's a whole new world of usability on the way--when sarge goes stable--shouldn't be an excuse to believe that woody is obsolete. jeez, i'd take potato over rh any version any day of the week. support is the issue, and because debian is the way it is, there's never a lack of that. i run woody on a very quirky sony jp issue laptop without a hitch. stable is as stable means. it works, and can be made to do whatever needs to be done. what's sarge got beyond a hipper version of x? i'm thinking forget rh, same way you forgot whatever you had before that. actually, i've yet to hear/read signs of significant gratitude from the new influx of rh refugees for the quality of support that has been extended to them on this list--not that it wouldn't happen, anyway. your commercial distro went cost productive, and then dumped you. c'mon, show a little appreciation that debian is here to catch your fall. with time, you'll realize that you couldn't have landed better, anywhere--woody included. ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
> Back when I used RedHat I always found it to be a pain the way you > have to manually track down, and rebuild, package depedencies. > > | So I thought I'd try debian as it seems a little more consistent. > | Is this true? > > Debian includes all of its packages in one place, and automatically > builds all of them. Using apt (aptitude is a good visual front-end) > you won't have to track down dependencies of a given package when you > install or upgrade. > However, from reading the APT HOWTO it does not appear to be easy to escape the dependency system. For example, I need to install postfix SASL + TLS for SMTP_AUTH which is not supported by default. You need to create custom packages. On Redhat I used the following description: http://postfix.state-of-mind.de/patrick.koetter/smtpauth/ I just removed the existing MTA, built new RPMs with the right options and installed them ignoring whatever dependecy other packages may have had. If I use debian it sounds like using custom packages is more difficult. I'll have to create a file with equivs-contol and then edit it. That's not so bad but knowing what to put in it bothers me. Mike -- A program should be written to model the concepts of the task it performs rather than the physical world or a process because this maximizes the potential for it to be applied to tasks that are conceptually similar and, more important, to tasks that have not yet been conceived. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Michael B Allen wrote: > So I thought I'd try debian as it seems a little more > consistent. Is this true? Is 3.0r1 glibc 2.3. How is support for > UTF-8 locales? Etc. What surprises can a RH user expect? I'm a former RedHat user too (changed back in 5.2/6.0 switching days). Now, since I haven't used RedHat in ages, I don't know if these things still apply (so don't see it as FUD against RedHat). - - Because Debian has a policy in place, there is a consistency on where you can find different types of files. For instance, all package installed configuration files are in /etc. IIRC, in RedHat, some X11 configuration files were in the /usr/X11R6 structure. - - The menu system. Debian has a menu system that keeps the application menu consistent across window managers. It's nice when you change from WM to WM, and find the same application at the same place. - - Upgrades, even between versions (like 2.2 to 3.0), is actually possible. As to your other questions. AFAIK, 3.0r1 used glibc2.2. You need to run sarge (3.1?, currently in testing) to get glibc2.3. I haven't tested UTF-8 locales in Woody (3.0), but UTF-8 locales in Sarge works fine. As a RedHat user, I think you would be happier running the testing distribution instead of the stable distribution (especially now that stable has become so out of date). The packages have been tested enough to not break too much, and it's somewhat up-to-date. - -- John L. Fjellstad web: http://www.fjellstad.org/ Quis custodiet ipsos custodes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAj/6uOoACgkQkz0vhQtHHRgHpACgq1qJIIYn3khPg+NxXSjW4074 hGMAoI77pbPXZOhTL8TFnSEt+MK3luO/ =r4Q/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
Em Ter, 2004-01-06 Ãs 16:16, Colin Watson escreveu: > On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 04:09:16PM -0200, Leandro GuimarÃes Faria Corcete Dutra > wrote: > > > > Don't remember. But I guess you will upgrade to GLibC 2.4 when you > > upgrade to testing in order to get Gnome 2. > > There's no such thing as glibc 2.4 yet. Sorry, and thanks for the correction. > > I guess the biggest hurdles would be the text-mode, no-detection > > installer (do a system inventory first) and the fact that stable is > > obsolete, so one is almost forced to upgrade to testing. > > I don't think this last is as true as people keep saying. Stable's quite > usable. Depends on one's needs. I found I couldn't live with the pt_BR localisation nor with pre-AA Gnome. -- Leandro GuimarÃes Faria Corcete Dutra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Prefeitura do MunicÃpio de SÃo Paulo dos Campos de Piratininga Governo EletrÃnico, Telecentros +55 (11) 5080 9647 http://br.geocities.com./lgcdutra/ +55 (11) 5080 9648 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 04:09:16PM -0200, Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete Dutra wrote: > Em Ter, 2004-01-06 às 08:18, Michael B Allen escreveu: > > Is 3.0r1 glibc 2.3. > > Don't remember. But I guess you will upgrade to GLibC 2.4 when you > upgrade to testing in order to get Gnome 2. There's no such thing as glibc 2.4 yet. > > What surprises can a RH user expect? > > I guess the biggest hurdles would be the text-mode, no-detection > installer (do a system inventory first) and the fact that stable is > obsolete, so one is almost forced to upgrade to testing. I don't think this last is as true as people keep saying. Stable's quite usable. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
Em Ter, 2004-01-06 Ãs 08:18, Michael B Allen escreveu: > I've been using RH 7.3 and it's been a very solid distro > for me but I feel like I'm being left behind at this point. Whenever I > update a package I have to get the source from their latest packages > and rebuild. So I thought I'd try debian as it seems a little more > consistent. Is this true? Sure, with Debian it has been ages since I've had to touch sources. > Is 3.0r1 glibc 2.3. Don't remember. But I guess you will upgrade to GLibC 2.4 when you upgrade to testing in order to get Gnome 2. > How is support for UTF-8 locales? Using it now, not perfect but quite useable. Remember doing apt-get install localeconf for that. > Etc. ? > What surprises can a RH user expect? I guess the biggest hurdles would be the text-mode, no-detection installer (do a system inventory first) and the fact that stable is obsolete, so one is almost forced to upgrade to testing. -- Leandro GuimarÃes Faria Corcete Dutra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Prefeitura do MunicÃpio de SÃo Paulo dos Campos de Piratininga Governo EletrÃnico, Telecentros +55 (11) 5080 9647 http://br.geocities.com./lgcdutra/ +55 (11) 5080 9648 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 12:48:38PM -0500, Derrick 'dman' Hudson wrote: > Instead you will use apt (Advanced Package Tracking ?) Advanced Package Tool. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 05:18:08AM -0500, Michael B Allen wrote:
| Hello,
|
| I just got a "linode" UML VPS over at linode.com and booted debian 3.0r1
| 2.2.24 on it. I've been using RH 7.3 and it's been a very solid distro
| for me but I feel like I'm being left behind at this point. Whenever I
| update a package I have to get the source from their latest packages
| and rebuild.
Back when I used RedHat I always found it to be a pain the way you
have to manually track down, and rebuild, package depedencies.
| So I thought I'd try debian as it seems a little more consistent.
| Is this true?
Debian includes all of its packages in one place, and automatically
builds all of them. Using apt (aptitude is a good visual front-end)
you won't have to track down dependencies of a given package when you
install or upgrade.
| Is 3.0r1 glibc 2.3.
| How is support for UTF-8 locales?
| Etc.
| What surprises can a RH user expect?
All config files are located in /etc. You won't find any in /usr,
/usr/local, or /var.
Documentation for a given package FOO is in /usr/share/doc/FOO.
init scripts are all found in /etc/init.d the runlevel start and kill
symlinks are all found in /etc/rcN.d.
Runlevels 0, 1, and 6 are identical to RH's (halt, single-user and
reboot; though I don't remember which is 0 and which is 6). However,
by default debian has levels 2, 3, 4, and 5 identical. If you want
them to be different, it is up to you to make them have whatever
meaning you want. (for example, my workstation only uses runlevel 2
but the laptop at work uses 2 for "normal" (powered) mode and 3 for
"battery" mode (no daemons, no automatic running of X))
These are the main differences you'll run into that stick out in my
head. I'm sure there are others that I don't remember at the moment.
| Off to read about dpkg
Not a bad start. Note that dpkg is the counterpart to rpm. However,
on a debian system you won't be using dpkg most of the time. Instead
you will use apt (Advanced Package Tracking ?) via a frontend such as
aptitude. dpkg doesn't handle downloading or dependency resolution.
Instead, apt handles that and then instructs dpkg to install (or
remove) packages according to what you have told it.
HTH,
-D
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Re: RH Veteran is now a Debian Newbie
Michael B Allen wrote: Hello, I just got a "linode" UML VPS over at linode.com and booted debian 3.0r1 2.2.24 on it. I've been using RH 7.3 and it's been a very solid distro for me but I feel like I'm being left behind at this point. Whenever I update a package I have to get the source from their latest packages and rebuild. So I thought I'd try debian as it seems a little more consistent. Is this true? Is 3.0r1 glibc 2.3. How is support for UTF-8 locales? Etc. What surprises can a RH user expect? Off to read about dpkg Thanks, Mike Woody is actually glibc 2.2 based. Other than that, yes support is very consistent. You can get package sources yourself and build them (say, if you want to run xfree86 4.3 on Woody), you can find back ports of newer packages, or you can just stick to the packages in the distro. -Roberto signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
