Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.
On 2019-08-10, Richard Hector wrote: > > Similarly, one of our local fuel stations has (or had) vouchers that say > things like '10c per litre off every litre of fuel' - which also quickly > gets into trouble if taken literally :-) You mean that would mean 20c off the second litre and 30c off the third, and so on, or something else? I really don't know. It seems 'every litre of fuel' is where the phrase goes wrong and that part could profitably be deleted, leaving simply: '10c per litre off.' Anyway, whoever wrote that must've been gassed (so to speak). > Richard > > -- “We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” ― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan
Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.
On 2019-08-10 23:44, Richard Hector wrote: On 11/08/19 3:06 AM, David Wright wrote: On Sat 10 Aug 2019 at 21:19:31 (+1200), Richard Hector wrote: On 10/08/19 9:10 PM, deloptes wrote: Richard Hector wrote: Sorry, this usage grates with me. $amount cheaper that $price means subtract $amount from $price $x times $price means multiply $price by $x so "2 times cheaper (than $450)" is: $450 - (2 x $450) = -$450. so what multiplied by 2 gives 450? 450 is 100% or 1 225 is 50% or 1/2 Right, so 225 is 50% cheaper, or half cheaper. Not twice cheaper. perhaps this is the confusion, cause we are using daily language to refer to maths. Daily language is the problem, yes. I'm not saying my fight is an easy one :-) In fact I would do it the other way around. initial price x 1xtime x+(1*x) 2xtimes x+(2*x) this gives x=150 450 is two times more expensive than 150 (or 200% more than), or three times as expensive as 150 (or 300% as expensive). 300 is two times as expensive as 150, or 100% more expensive than 150 We know that these don't work symmetrically; if you have a 50% discount, you can't get the original price back by adding 50%, because it's 50% of a different number. "Expensive" is a dimensional term, like length and time. "Cheap" is in a different category, like shortness. A 6-inch nail is twice as long as a 3-inch nail, but one doesn't say the latter is twice as short. Agreed. I prefer to avoid multipliers with inverted dimension terms like that. But if someone asked for a nail twice as short as this (holding up a 6-inch nail), you might assume they were a non-native speaker of English, or you might notice you're almost twice as tall as they are: ie it's a child. (And it would be polite to offer them a 3-inch nail. Learning all the categories takes time, and some people might have slightly different boundaries.) I wouldn't assume that; it's a common usage, even though I consider it wrong :-) A bit like the American habit of saying "I could care less", which also doesn't mean what they mean it to mean :-) It's pretty obvious that Reco's meaning for cheapness was meant to be understood as a reciprocal cost and not as a discount. It might be a legitimate idiom in some parts; who knows. Agreed. And many would consider it a 'legitimate idiom'. I personally consider that from a linguistic and mathematical perspective, it doesn't make sense. One hears stories of pedants insisting they be paid to carry goods out of the shop because they were labelled "10x cheaper". No way Jos??. I haven't actually insisted on that, but I've certainly thought it :-) Similarly, one of our local fuel stations has (or had) vouchers that say things like '10c per litre off every litre of fuel' - which also quickly gets into trouble if taken literally :-) Richard sysadmin types have got *way* too much time on their hands. =o) mick -- Key ID4BFEBB31
Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.
On 11/08/19 3:06 AM, David Wright wrote: > On Sat 10 Aug 2019 at 21:19:31 (+1200), Richard Hector wrote: >> On 10/08/19 9:10 PM, deloptes wrote: >>> Richard Hector wrote: >>> Sorry, this usage grates with me. $amount cheaper that $price means subtract $amount from $price $x times $price means multiply $price by $x so "2 times cheaper (than $450)" is: $450 - (2 x $450) = -$450. >>> >>> so what multiplied by 2 gives 450? >>> >>> 450 is 100% or 1 >>> 225 is 50% or 1/2 >> >> Right, so 225 is 50% cheaper, or half cheaper. Not twice cheaper. >> >>> perhaps this is the confusion, cause we are using daily language to refer to >>> maths. >> >> Daily language is the problem, yes. I'm not saying my fight is an easy >> one :-) >> >>> In fact I would do it the other way around. >>> >>> initial price x >>> 1xtime x+(1*x) >>> 2xtimes x+(2*x) >>> >>> this gives x=150 >> >> 450 is two times more expensive than 150 (or 200% more than), or three >> times as expensive as 150 (or 300% as expensive). >> 300 is two times as expensive as 150, or 100% more expensive than 150 >> >> We know that these don't work symmetrically; if you have a 50% discount, >> you can't get the original price back by adding 50%, because it's 50% of >> a different number. > > "Expensive" is a dimensional term, like length and time. "Cheap" is in > a different category, like shortness. A 6-inch nail is twice as long > as a 3-inch nail, but one doesn't say the latter is twice as short. Agreed. I prefer to avoid multipliers with inverted dimension terms like that. > But if someone asked for a nail twice as short as this (holding up a > 6-inch nail), you might assume they were a non-native speaker of > English, or you might notice you're almost twice as tall as they are: > ie it's a child. (And it would be polite to offer them a 3-inch > nail. Learning all the categories takes time, and some people might > have slightly different boundaries.) I wouldn't assume that; it's a common usage, even though I consider it wrong :-) A bit like the American habit of saying "I could care less", which also doesn't mean what they mean it to mean :-) > It's pretty obvious that Reco's meaning for cheapness was meant to be > understood as a reciprocal cost and not as a discount. It might be a > legitimate idiom in some parts; who knows. Agreed. And many would consider it a 'legitimate idiom'. I personally consider that from a linguistic and mathematical perspective, it doesn't make sense. > One hears stories of pedants insisting they be paid to carry goods out > of the shop because they were labelled "10x cheaper". No way José. I haven't actually insisted on that, but I've certainly thought it :-) Similarly, one of our local fuel stations has (or had) vouchers that say things like '10c per litre off every litre of fuel' - which also quickly gets into trouble if taken literally :-) Richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.
On Sat 10 Aug 2019 at 21:19:31 (+1200), Richard Hector wrote: > On 10/08/19 9:10 PM, deloptes wrote: > > Richard Hector wrote: > > > >> > >> Sorry, this usage grates with me. > >> > >> $amount cheaper that $price means subtract $amount from $price > >> > >> $x times $price means multiply $price by $x > >> > >> so "2 times cheaper (than $450)" is: > >> > >> $450 - (2 x $450) = -$450. > > > > so what multiplied by 2 gives 450? > > > > 450 is 100% or 1 > > 225 is 50% or 1/2 > > Right, so 225 is 50% cheaper, or half cheaper. Not twice cheaper. > > > perhaps this is the confusion, cause we are using daily language to refer to > > maths. > > Daily language is the problem, yes. I'm not saying my fight is an easy > one :-) > > > In fact I would do it the other way around. > > > > initial price x > > 1xtime x+(1*x) > > 2xtimes x+(2*x) > > > > this gives x=150 > > 450 is two times more expensive than 150 (or 200% more than), or three > times as expensive as 150 (or 300% as expensive). > 300 is two times as expensive as 150, or 100% more expensive than 150 > > We know that these don't work symmetrically; if you have a 50% discount, > you can't get the original price back by adding 50%, because it's 50% of > a different number. "Expensive" is a dimensional term, like length and time. "Cheap" is in a different category, like shortness. A 6-inch nail is twice as long as a 3-inch nail, but one doesn't say the latter is twice as short. But if someone asked for a nail twice as short as this (holding up a 6-inch nail), you might assume they were a non-native speaker of English, or you might notice you're almost twice as tall as they are: ie it's a child. (And it would be polite to offer them a 3-inch nail. Learning all the categories takes time, and some people might have slightly different boundaries.) It's pretty obvious that Reco's meaning for cheapness was meant to be understood as a reciprocal cost and not as a discount. It might be a legitimate idiom in some parts; who knows. One hears stories of pedants insisting they be paid to carry goods out of the shop because they were labelled "10x cheaper". No way José. Cheers, David.
Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.
On 10/08/19 9:10 PM, deloptes wrote: > Richard Hector wrote: > >> >> Sorry, this usage grates with me. >> >> $amount cheaper that $price means subtract $amount from $price >> >> $x times $price means multiply $price by $x >> >> so "2 times cheaper (than $450)" is: >> >> $450 - (2 x $450) = -$450. > > so what multiplied by 2 gives 450? > > 450 is 100% or 1 > 225 is 50% or 1/2 Right, so 225 is 50% cheaper, or half cheaper. Not twice cheaper. > perhaps this is the confusion, cause we are using daily language to refer to > maths. Daily language is the problem, yes. I'm not saying my fight is an easy one :-) > In fact I would do it the other way around. > > initial price x > 1xtime x+(1*x) > 2xtimes x+(2*x) > > this gives x=150 450 is two times more expensive than 150 (or 200% more than), or three times as expensive as 150 (or 300% as expensive). 300 is two times as expensive as 150, or 100% more expensive than 150 We know that these don't work symmetrically; if you have a 50% discount, you can't get the original price back by adding 50%, because it's 50% of a different number. Richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.
Richard Hector wrote: > > Sorry, this usage grates with me. > > $amount cheaper that $price means subtract $amount from $price > > $x times $price means multiply $price by $x > > so "2 times cheaper (than $450)" is: > > $450 - (2 x $450) = -$450. so what multiplied by 2 gives 450? 450 is 100% or 1 225 is 50% or 1/2 perhaps this is the confusion, cause we are using daily language to refer to maths. In fact I would do it the other way around. initial price x 1xtime x+(1*x) 2xtimes x+(2*x) this gives x=150 The problem is in the comparison - when you read the characteristics of the devices, there are couple of differences that can not be neglected, but I agree 400 is too much. I think fair price for such a device would be in 200-300 range, what we also see for the Lynksis router.
OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.
On 10/08/19 6:20 AM, Reco wrote: > On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 01:16:49PM -0400, Celejar wrote: >> When you say five times cheaper, I gather you're talking about the >> prices for used units, in which case it's not really an >> apples-to-apples comparison. At least when I checked, the new units on >> Amazon start at $190. > > I stand corrected. It's two times cheaper for new ones. Sorry, this usage grates with me. $amount cheaper that $price means subtract $amount from $price $x times $price means multiply $price by $x so "2 times cheaper (than $450)" is: $450 - (2 x $450) = -$450. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Server hardware advice.
I bought a turris omnia router recently and so far it has worked out pretty well. -- Steven Mainor On August 9, 2019 12:59:34 PM EDT, Reco wrote: >On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 06:16:21PM +0200, deloptes wrote: >> John Hasler wrote: >> >> > Steven Mainor writes: >> > > It looks like there are some ESPRESSOBIN v7s on Amazon right >now. >> > >> > Excellent. When I looked yesterday Amazon said "None available". >I >> > think I'll order one today. The ancient Dell I'm now using as a >> > router/firewall is getting flaky. I've wanted to replace it some >time >> > but I want something ARM-based. This is the first suitable board >I've >> > seen that has dual ethernet. I'll stick it in a box along with the >> > modem, the switch, and a power supply. >> >> This one was very appealing >> >https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91=acrosser=1561237800=gateway=8-11 > >$430 for a router? Surely you're kidding. > >This one is five times cheaper *and* it can run Debian or openwrt: > >https://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Dual-Band-Wireless-Gigabit-WRT1200AC/dp/B00UVN20T0/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=linksys+wrt+1200=1565369861=gateway=8-2 > >Reco
Re: Server hardware advice.
On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 01:16:49PM -0400, Celejar wrote: > On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 19:59:34 +0300 > Reco wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 06:16:21PM +0200, deloptes wrote: > > ... > > > > This one was very appealing > > > https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91=acrosser=1561237800=gateway=8-11 > > > > $430 for a router? Surely you're kidding. > > > > This one is five times cheaper *and* it can run Debian or openwrt: > > > > https://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Dual-Band-Wireless-Gigabit-WRT1200AC/dp/B00UVN20T0/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=linksys+wrt+1200=1565369861=gateway=8-2 > > When you say five times cheaper, I gather you're talking about the > prices for used units, in which case it's not really an > apples-to-apples comparison. At least when I checked, the new units on > Amazon start at $190. I stand corrected. It's two times cheaper for new ones. Reco
Re: Server hardware advice.
$430 is way above my budget. "Linksys" and "Wireless" are both negatives. Maybe, if I could get it for $10 at a yard sale... -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
Re: Server hardware advice.
On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 19:59:34 +0300 Reco wrote: > On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 06:16:21PM +0200, deloptes wrote: ... > > This one was very appealing > > https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91=acrosser=1561237800=gateway=8-11 > > $430 for a router? Surely you're kidding. > > This one is five times cheaper *and* it can run Debian or openwrt: > > https://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Dual-Band-Wireless-Gigabit-WRT1200AC/dp/B00UVN20T0/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=linksys+wrt+1200=1565369861=gateway=8-2 When you say five times cheaper, I gather you're talking about the prices for used units, in which case it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison. At least when I checked, the new units on Amazon start at $190. [But I run OpenWrt on a TP-Link AC-2600, which I purchased several years ago (used / refurbished) on eBay for about $50-$55, and are currently available there for as little as $73 (less if you take a unit missing antennas, etc. ...)] Celejar
Re: Server hardware advice.
On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 06:16:21PM +0200, deloptes wrote: > John Hasler wrote: > > > Steven Mainor writes: > > > It looks like there are some ESPRESSOBIN v7s on Amazon right now. > > > > Excellent. When I looked yesterday Amazon said "None available". I > > think I'll order one today. The ancient Dell I'm now using as a > > router/firewall is getting flaky. I've wanted to replace it some time > > but I want something ARM-based. This is the first suitable board I've > > seen that has dual ethernet. I'll stick it in a box along with the > > modem, the switch, and a power supply. > > This one was very appealing > https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91=acrosser=1561237800=gateway=8-11 $430 for a router? Surely you're kidding. This one is five times cheaper *and* it can run Debian or openwrt: https://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Dual-Band-Wireless-Gigabit-WRT1200AC/dp/B00UVN20T0/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=linksys+wrt+1200=1565369861=gateway=8-2 Reco
Re: Server hardware advice.
John Hasler wrote: > Steven Mainor writes: > > It looks like there are some ESPRESSOBIN v7s on Amazon right now. > > Excellent. When I looked yesterday Amazon said "None available". I > think I'll order one today. The ancient Dell I'm now using as a > router/firewall is getting flaky. I've wanted to replace it some time > but I want something ARM-based. This is the first suitable board I've > seen that has dual ethernet. I'll stick it in a box along with the > modem, the switch, and a power supply. This one was very appealing https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91=acrosser=1561237800=gateway=8-11 or this one https://eshop.aaeon.com/desktop-network-appliance-fws-2276.html I was recently looking in the same direction
Re: Server hardware advice.
Steven Mainor writes: > It looks like there are some ESPRESSOBIN v7s on Amazon right now. Excellent. When I looked yesterday Amazon said "None available". I think I'll order one today. The ancient Dell I'm now using as a router/firewall is getting flaky. I've wanted to replace it some time but I want something ARM-based. This is the first suitable board I've seen that has dual ethernet. I'll stick it in a box along with the modem, the switch, and a power supply. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
Re: Server hardware advice.
On Wed, Aug 7, 2019, 3:35 PM Steven Mainor wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary focus > on > security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 to 5 > people at most. > > My requirements are: > > A server setup that can be run with completely open source software and > doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed source > for > this particular project. > > A gigabit ethernet port. > > A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to. > > Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server from > an > encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput saving > and > reading files from nextcloud. > > I would just build something x86 based but the amd/intel Platform Security > Processor/IME stuff makes me nervous. > > So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones listed > here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW > > I like the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but I am not sure the processor will be > enough > to handle the overhead from an encrypted hard drive. I also don't like > that it > is only 32-bit since that will limit the file size nextcloud can handle as > I > understand it. > > Is there anything similar to the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but more powerful or > is > there a better option I haven't read about yet? > > -- > Steven Mainor Just grab one HP microserver NL36/40/54 series like this one https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-ProLiant-Microserver-G8-G1610T-Server-12GB-EEC-Ram/223611463875 and forget about that SBC nonsense :-) >
Re: Server hardware advice.
It looks like there are some ESPRESSOBIN v7s on Amazon right now. -- Steven Mainor On August 8, 2019 11:16:44 PM EDT, John Hasler wrote: >Jonas Smedegaard wrote: >> Disregarding OSHW I agree that above options are good highlights. >> Additionally I suggest Olimex A64-Olinuxino and ESPRESSObin, both >> (unlike above options) known to be mainlined and work with Debian >> Buster. > >The ESPRESSObin would fulfill my requirements, but does not appear to >actually be available. >-- >John Hasler >jhas...@newsguy.com >Elmwood, WI USA
Re: Server hardware advice.
Jonas Smedegaard wrote: > Disregarding OSHW I agree that above options are good highlights. > Additionally I suggest Olimex A64-Olinuxino and ESPRESSObin, both > (unlike above options) known to be mainlined and work with Debian > Buster. The ESPRESSObin would fulfill my requirements, but does not appear to actually be available. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
Re: Server hardware advice.
On 8/8/19 7:22 AM, Dan Ritter wrote: To summarize: if you're running ZFS, it can protect you from lots of sources of data corruption. It can't protect you from RAM errors without ECC, so you should opt for ECC if integrity is your goal. None of the other filesystems protect you against RAM errors either, so this is not a special requirement of ZFS. +1 The same goes for anything that uses main memory, which is pretty much everything I use computers for. Bad data in memory is bad enough, but bad data written to disk is the gift that keeps on giving -- replication overwriting good data, snapshot and backup rotation overwriting good data, archive destruction destroying good data, etc.. The longer it takes to figure out the data is bad, the less likely you can recover. For me, the key points in favor of ECC are: 1. Wikipedia gives DRAM bit error rates (BER) from 10E-10 to 10E-17 errors per bit per hour [1]. So, 1 error per year for 114 kB to 1.14 TB of DRAM on average under some test conditions. 2. In the wild, not all chips, modules, sockets, capacitors, motherboards, etc., are healthy or compatible. Real BER's can be much higher. 3. The BER of DRAM tends to increase as the transistors, capacitors, lines, etc., get smaller and faster [2]. Given Moore's Law, manufacturers must be hard pressed just to maintain the BER with each new generation. 4. Moore's Law again: the amount of DRAM in devices has been increasing exponentially, thus adding more DRAM that can error. So, it is just a matter of time before the error probability curve crosses the BER specification. One article I read said desktops and laptops already crossed it at 8 to 16 GB. COTS servers can have one or two orders of magnitude more memory. David [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_random-access_memory [2] https://danluu.com/why-ecc/
Re: Server hardware advice.
On Thu, Aug 08, 2019 at 04:49:06PM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote: So is the general consensus that there are no modern SBCs powerful enough to run nextcloud on (apache, mariadb, php) or a mail server (typical postfix, dovecot, opendkim, SpamAssassin etc... ) for a handful of people? That seems hard to believe. The mail server is easy. Nextcloud is porky. The easy answer is to get a cheap PC but you decided you didn't want to do that. And you don't want to spend any money. That leaves you in the uncomfortable quadrant of "unreliably available specialized boards built from ARM components". It can be done but it will take more work to identify and acquire the board. If you don't like that, then you can change one of your other parameters (software, writing off x86, price, etc) and then the problem becomes easier with more options.
Re: Server hardware advice.
Steven Mainor wrote: > So is the general consensus that there are no modern SBCs powerful enough to > run nextcloud on (apache, mariadb, php) or a mail server (typical postfix, > dovecot, opendkim, SpamAssassin etc... ) for a handful of people? That seems > hard to believe. > I would certainly run mail for a household or so on an SBC, should that be necessary. NextCloud is probably going to be rather sluggish, although an RPi4 with a USB3 connected SSD might not be bad. -dsr-
Re: Server hardware advice.
So is the general consensus that there are no modern SBCs powerful enough to run nextcloud on (apache, mariadb, php) or a mail server (typical postfix, dovecot, opendkim, SpamAssassin etc... ) for a handful of people? That seems hard to believe. -- Steven Mainor On August 8, 2019 12:14:23 PM EDT, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: >Quoting Reco (2019-08-08 17:25:02) >> Hi. >> >> On Thu, Aug 08, 2019 at 04:54:17PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: >> > > > > Then Intel stopped making desktop boards and I wanted ZFS. >ZFS >> > > > > wants ECC memory. It was time to migrate to server hardware. >> > > > >> > > > My understanding is that ZFS's need / desire for ECC is >> > > > something of a myth. It's certainly true that many ZFS / >FreeNAS >> > > > *users* have such a need, but the filesystem itself apparently >> > > > doesn't: >> > > > >> > > > >https://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/ >> > > >> > > To summarize: if you're running ZFS, it can protect you from lots > >> > > of sources of data corruption. It can't protect you from RAM >> > > errors without ECC, so you should opt for ECC if integrity is >your >> > > goal. >> > > >> > > None of the other filesystems protect you against RAM errors >> > > either, so this is not a special requirement of ZFS. >> > >> > ECC memory is rare among ARM SBCs, but Helios4 uses ECC memory! >> >> ... with the only problem being the quantity of such RAM. >> >> A typical Helios4 board has whopping 2Gb of RAM, which is about 4 >> times lower than needed for comfortable ZFS usage (assuming that >zpool >> size is measured in terabytes) and a user intends to run something >> more than a OS kernel and sshd. That estimation deliberately excludes > >> all advanced ZFS features (such as compression, encryption and >> deduplication). >> >> IMO for such RAM sizes it's better to use old trusted MDRAID, LVM, >> ext4 and a new kid on the block - dm-integrity (all the needed tools >> are in buster, but some assembly is required). > >For the record I did not recommend using ZFS on low-end hardware. > >The OP asked for advice in buying low-end ARM-based hardware for use as > >server, and I pointed out that one ARM SBC (likely the only relatively >cheap one) is known to use ECC memory - which (as the previous poster >pointed out) is interesting _independently_ of choice of filesystem. > >Personally I use ext4 with journaling enabled, on either conventional >rotating disks, SSDs, or sdcards (no RAID involved). > > > - Jonas > >-- > * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt > * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ > > [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private
Re: Server hardware advice.
Quoting Reco (2019-08-08 17:25:02) > Hi. > > On Thu, Aug 08, 2019 at 04:54:17PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: > > > > > Then Intel stopped making desktop boards and I wanted ZFS. ZFS > > > > > wants ECC memory. It was time to migrate to server hardware. > > > > > > > > My understanding is that ZFS's need / desire for ECC is > > > > something of a myth. It's certainly true that many ZFS / FreeNAS > > > > *users* have such a need, but the filesystem itself apparently > > > > doesn't: > > > > > > > > https://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/ > > > > > > To summarize: if you're running ZFS, it can protect you from lots > > > of sources of data corruption. It can't protect you from RAM > > > errors without ECC, so you should opt for ECC if integrity is your > > > goal. > > > > > > None of the other filesystems protect you against RAM errors > > > either, so this is not a special requirement of ZFS. > > > > ECC memory is rare among ARM SBCs, but Helios4 uses ECC memory! > > ... with the only problem being the quantity of such RAM. > > A typical Helios4 board has whopping 2Gb of RAM, which is about 4 > times lower than needed for comfortable ZFS usage (assuming that zpool > size is measured in terabytes) and a user intends to run something > more than a OS kernel and sshd. That estimation deliberately excludes > all advanced ZFS features (such as compression, encryption and > deduplication). > > IMO for such RAM sizes it's better to use old trusted MDRAID, LVM, > ext4 and a new kid on the block - dm-integrity (all the needed tools > are in buster, but some assembly is required). For the record I did not recommend using ZFS on low-end hardware. The OP asked for advice in buying low-end ARM-based hardware for use as server, and I pointed out that one ARM SBC (likely the only relatively cheap one) is known to use ECC memory - which (as the previous poster pointed out) is interesting _independently_ of choice of filesystem. Personally I use ext4 with journaling enabled, on either conventional rotating disks, SSDs, or sdcards (no RAID involved). - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: Server hardware advice.
Hi. On Thu, Aug 08, 2019 at 04:54:17PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: > > > > Then Intel stopped making desktop boards and I wanted ZFS. ZFS > > > > wants ECC memory. It was time to migrate to server hardware. > > > > > > My understanding is that ZFS's need / desire for ECC is something of > > > a myth. It's certainly true that many ZFS / FreeNAS *users* have > > > such a need, but the filesystem itself apparently doesn't: > > > > > > https://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/ > > > > To summarize: if you're running ZFS, it can protect you from lots of > > sources of data corruption. It can't protect you from RAM errors > > without ECC, so you should opt for ECC if integrity is your goal. > > > > None of the other filesystems protect you against RAM errors either, > > so this is not a special requirement of ZFS. > > ECC memory is rare among ARM SBCs, but Helios4 uses ECC memory! ... with the only problem being the quantity of such RAM. A typical Helios4 board has whopping 2Gb of RAM, which is about 4 times lower than needed for comfortable ZFS usage (assuming that zpool size is measured in terabytes) and a user intends to run something more than a OS kernel and sshd. That estimation deliberately excludes all advanced ZFS features (such as compression, encryption and deduplication). IMO for such RAM sizes it's better to use old trusted MDRAID, LVM, ext4 and a new kid on the block - dm-integrity (all the needed tools are in buster, but some assembly is required). Reco
Re: Server hardware advice.
Quoting Dan Ritter (2019-08-08 16:22:07) > Celejar wrote: > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 23:59:44 -0700 > > David Christensen wrote: > > > > ... > > > > > Get at least four internal SATA 6 Gbps ports -- boot disk, optical > > > disk, two data disks (mirrored). I prefer six. > > > > Do most people running servers really want / need an optical disk? > > As long as the machine can boot via USB, is an optical disk really > > important for a server? > > > > ... > > > > > Then Intel stopped making desktop boards and I wanted ZFS. ZFS > > > wants ECC memory. It was time to migrate to server hardware. > > > > My understanding is that ZFS's need / desire for ECC is something of > > a myth. It's certainly true that many ZFS / FreeNAS *users* have > > such a need, but the filesystem itself apparently doesn't: > > > > https://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/ > > To summarize: if you're running ZFS, it can protect you from lots of > sources of data corruption. It can't protect you from RAM errors > without ECC, so you should opt for ECC if integrity is your goal. > > None of the other filesystems protect you against RAM errors either, > so this is not a special requirement of ZFS. ECC memory is rare among ARM SBCs, but Helios4 uses ECC memory! - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: Server hardware advice.
Celejar wrote: > On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 23:59:44 -0700 > David Christensen wrote: > > ... > > > Get at least four internal SATA 6 Gbps ports -- boot disk, optical disk, > > two data disks (mirrored). I prefer six. > > Do most people running servers really want / need an optical disk? As > long as the machine can boot via USB, is an optical disk really > important for a server? > > ... > > > Then Intel stopped making desktop boards and I wanted ZFS. ZFS wants > > ECC memory. It was time to migrate to server hardware. > > My understanding is that ZFS's need / desire for ECC is something of a > myth. It's certainly true that many ZFS / FreeNAS *users* have such a > need, but the filesystem itself apparently doesn't: > > https://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/ To summarize: if you're running ZFS, it can protect you from lots of sources of data corruption. It can't protect you from RAM errors without ECC, so you should opt for ECC if integrity is your goal. None of the other filesystems protect you against RAM errors either, so this is not a special requirement of ZFS. -dsr-
Re: Server hardware advice.
On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 23:59:44 -0700 David Christensen wrote: ... > Get at least four internal SATA 6 Gbps ports -- boot disk, optical disk, > two data disks (mirrored). I prefer six. Do most people running servers really want / need an optical disk? As long as the machine can boot via USB, is an optical disk really important for a server? ... > Then Intel stopped making desktop boards and I wanted ZFS. ZFS wants > ECC memory. It was time to migrate to server hardware. My understanding is that ZFS's need / desire for ECC is something of a myth. It's certainly true that many ZFS / FreeNAS *users* have such a need, but the filesystem itself apparently doesn't: https://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/ Celejar
Re: Server hardware advice.
Steven Mainor wrote: > I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary > focus on security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that > will serve 3 to 5 people at most. David Christensen writes: > Have you considered a mail hosting provider? The Internet is a war > zone and mail servers are prime targets. Are you prepared to fight > that battle 24x7? Do you want you home IP that visible? Will your > mail users tolerate down-time? I provide e-mail addresses for myself > and for family members; I pay professionals to host my mail service. Excellent advice. A single Newsguy account will provide all the addresses you need. You can have your domain registrar redirect mail to your Newsguy account so you can still use your domain name. Since you would be paying them (about $5/month) you would have an actual contract, unlike "free" services such as Gmail. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
Re: Server hardware advice.
On Mi, 07 aug 19, 10:21:25, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: > > Disregarding OSHW I agree that above options are good highlights. > Additionally I suggest Olimex A64-Olinuxino and ESPRESSObin, both > (unlike above options) known to be mainlined and work with Debian > Buster. The Rock64Pro (possibly with the SATA expansion card) or the MACHIATTObin could also be an option. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Server hardware advice.
On 8/6/19 10:29 PM, Steven Mainor wrote: Hi all, I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary focus on security. Have you considered OpenBSD? Security is their top priority. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 to 5 people at most. Have you considered a mail hosting provider? The Internet is a war zone and mail servers are prime targets. Are you prepared to fight that battle 24x7? Do you want you home IP that visible? Will your mail users tolerate down-time? I provide e-mail addresses for myself and for family members; I pay professionals to host my mail service. Hosting Nextcloud locally allows you to get at your data at LAN speeds, but: 1. Do you have a good firewall/ router, and know how to use it? 2. Will Nextcloud run in a DMZ? 3. Does Nextcloud require a public IP -- e.g. DNS or dynamic DNS? My requirements are: A server setup that can be run with completely open source software and doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed source for this particular project. I prefer Intel brand motherboards, and Dell products with Intel chips, because the hardware quality is good, support documents are available for many years, and Intel supports FOSS with reference source code. So, a given FOSS OS distribution has the best chance of working OOTB on such hardware without needing binary firmware. That said, the Intel WiFi board I installed in this Dell laptop does require binary firmware. A gigabit ethernet port. More than one can be very useful. A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to. Internal headers, internal ports, or external ports? SATA DOM? M.2, etc.? I have had issues with FOSS and USB 3.0 ports. USB 2.0 is slower, but more reliable. I have found internal to be more reliable than external. Get at least four internal SATA 6 Gbps ports -- boot disk, optical disk, two data disks (mirrored). I prefer six. Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server from an encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput saving and reading files from nextcloud. Get a processor with AES-NI support. Get a motherboard that uses ECC RAM and get ECC RAM. Research your OS, file system(s), services, etc., for the amount of RAM needed, and pad according to budget and market price points. I would not get less than 2 @ 4 GB ECC. I would just build something x86 based but the amd/intel Platform Security Processor/IME stuff makes me nervous. Do not connect an Ethernet port with a management chip directly to the Internet and/or disable the management chip in the CMOS setup. If the box has more than one Ethernet port and you want the management features, connect the Ethernet port with the management chip to a air-walled administration LAN. So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones listed here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW I like the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but I am not sure the processor will be enough to handle the overhead from an encrypted hard drive. I also don't like that it is only 32-bit since that will limit the file size nextcloud can handle as I understand it. Is there anything similar to the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but more powerful or is there a better option I haven't read about yet? On 8/6/19 11:08 PM, Steven Mainor wrote: I would like to keep the budget under $500 not including the hard drive(s) I already have drives. Less is better. On 8/7/19 9:42 AM, Steven Mainor wrote: For my needs, I doubt anything more than a modern single board computer is necessary. At least as far as compute power is concerned. I have many doubts about SBC's and SFF computers -- fewer memory, expansion, and I/O slots and ports; fewer choices for processors, memory modules, cases, power supplies, expansion cards, etc.; fewer drive bays; heat issues; long-term vendor support; and the total system cost is always higher than an equivalent tower desktop or server. I built my computers from good quality, standards-compliant, COTS desktop parts for 20+ years. This allowed me to mix-and-match as required when parts died or became obsolete. I still have two 64-bit desktop machines in use, and two 32-bit machines packed in their original boxes in the garage. Then Intel stopped making desktop boards and I wanted ZFS. ZFS wants ECC memory. It was time to migrate to server hardware. I needed to upgrade or replace my SOHO server late last year. My old SOHO server was based on an Antec full tower ATX case and had an Intel D945GNT motherboard, Pentium D processor, and 2 @ 1 GB RAM. One memory slot was bad, preventing installation of 4 @ 1 GB RAM, and dm-crypt without AES-NI cut disk performance in half or more. I replaced the motherboard, CPU, and memory with a used server parts:
Re: Server hardware advice.
Steven Mainor wrote: > I would say a server is any piece of software or hardware that serves data > to other devices. > Well strictly speaking two different things are referred as server: hardware software In your case you are talking about buying hardware - correct? And if you intend to use a PC, than the correct wording for this would be A second hand PC that will be used as a home server. > I have run an apache2/mariadb/php server from an old laptop with a > headless LTS Linux for over two years without issue. > > Surely you aren't saying only a rack mounted 64 core monstrosity with a TB > of ram is qualified to be called a "server" > On hardware level - yes. Any PC can be used as a server, but it is still not a server from HW POV. There are many many technical details that make the difference, like memory channels, caches etc. > For my needs, I doubt anything more than a modern single board computer is > necessary. At least as far as compute power is concerned. Yes any modern PC would work. What was suggested that you take one with enough CPU and RAM. I think today one could get 4-8 CPUs with 16-32GB of RAM at a fair price. Do not underestimate the disks. I had a terrible experience with PC style drives. Take NAS style harddrives like the WD Red. You really want to use RAID there and all other drives I have been using in the past had to be replaced either because they failed or because the latency was unacceptable. I had Seagate Baraccuda, WD Green and WD Blue. A fellow sys admin told me they use WD Red and indeed the 2TB WD Red are very reliable, but not the bigger once - amazing what one should know. So I replaced all the drives over the years with WD Red 2TB. I use RAID1. I build a backup server recently out of older Intel DG45FC board I bought with CPU for ~100,- some years ago, gain with WD Red 2TB in RAID5, so that there is 6TB now. What I want to say is that not every fairly modern PC works, because you want to attach at least two disks to build a RAID - the more SATA connectors you have - the better.
Re: Server hardware advice.
On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 17:12:20 +0200 deloptes wrote: > Michael Stone wrote: > > > Newer server hardware is much more power efficient and will draw very > > little power when idle. This is one of the drawbacks to saving money by > > using old hardware. (You can still use old hardware, just be sure it's > > new enough that it's from the era when power efficiency became a thing.) > > I am not sure who you are answering to. I recently looked at HP DL360 and > DL380 Gen10. Yes indeed they are more power efficient compared to Gen9 in > terms they provide more calculation cycles for the same power, but this can > not be compared to a PC. This sort of stuff is discussed endlessly on the homelab subreddit, but for some personal data points: I run Debian on a Dell R210 II, with 1 CPU with 4 cores / 8 threads and 16GB of RAM, and a single HDD: the thing idles at about 23 watts. A Windows 10 VM (KVM / libvirt) adds about 5-7 watts, but a Debian Sid VM adds nothing. [Of course, the Debian VM is a fairly minimal thing, with under 400 packages installed, while the Windows installation is a pretty standard one.] Celejar
Re: Server hardware advice.
Am 07.08.2019 um 10:21 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard: Quoting Reco (2019-08-07 08:53:52) On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 01:29:21AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote: I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary focus on security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 to 5 people at most. My requirements are: A server setup that can be run with completely open source software and doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed source for this particular project. A gigabit ethernet port. A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to. Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server from an encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput saving and reading files from nextcloud. These fit all your requirements (i.e. it'll run stock buster kernel without any additional firmware): Helios4 - [1]. 4 SATA ports controller attached to PCI-E. GnuBee - [2]. 6 SATA ports attached to PCI-E. Odroid HC2 - [3]. Single SATA port, attached to USB bus. No powerful computers exist today completely without non-free parts: Since you point to Open Source Hardware below, beware that none of above devices are OSHWA certified: https://certification.oshwa.org/list.html - if however your freedom concerns are limited to _software_ parts then it is easier: Look for boards supported in mainline Linux and u-boot, and supported in Debian! Disregarding OSHW I agree that above options are good highlights. Additionally I suggest Olimex A64-Olinuxino and ESPRESSObin, both (unlike above options) known to be mainlined and work with Debian Buster. Personally, for hosting mail + Nextcloud for a small team I would tolerate USB2.0 and use the OSHWA certified board Olimex A64-Olinuxino. Only for heavy professional demands (e.g. an advertising agency pushing big files across a LAN all the time) I would use a Helios4. So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones listed here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW Happy to see that list being of use beyond the FreedomBox project and my own competing https://solidbox.org/ :-) Please note that above list is limited to more consumer-oriented devices than your spec needs - e.g. must be sold with a proper case and be cheaper than you tolerate. That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in the day. I just got myself a Zotac CI329 Nano. The Ethernet drivers (Realtek r8169 module) seem to use some binary blob. It was a bit strange as the system asked me for them in the debian installer, but then worked without providing any files... If that is ok for the OP, this provides a powerful fanless system. It is very compact, has four cores and it didn't complain when it was very hot here, recently. I'm using it as a router, because the FritzBox! Routers are becoming useless for more ambitious users. It has 2x Gigabit Ethernet and Intel WiFi with a single antenna. I'm also having 2x Windows Server 2016 core running in VMs to play around with Active Directory. The CPU is Atom based and officially supports only 8G, but I bought a 16GB dual channel kit and it works without flaw. I did the same on my QNAP, which has an older generation Celeron without AES instructions. A €30 240GB Kingston SSD provides plenty of fast storage and all together this is a powerful, clean system using <10W. Jochen
Re: Server hardware advice.
I would say a server is any piece of software or hardware that serves data to other devices. I have run an apache2/mariadb/php server from an old laptop with a headless LTS Linux for over two years without issue. Surely you aren't saying only a rack mounted 64 core monstrosity with a TB of ram is qualified to be called a "server" For my needs, I doubt anything more than a modern single board computer is necessary. At least as far as compute power is concerned. -- Steven Mainor On August 7, 2019 10:53:52 AM EDT, deloptes wrote: Steven Mainor wrote: I would like to keep the budget under $500 not including the hard drive(s) I already have drives. Less is better. When I read server hardware I understand also server hardware. It has many CPUs a lot of ram, redundant power supply etc. It consumes a lot of power and costs a lot. For under 500 you can not get any of this and for your use case you do not need this as well. Years ago I build one to serve our needs at home. It has 4 virtual CPU and 32GB RAM - it uses 85Watt of power when not under load and it goes to above 100 if I compile software on it. It uses 10Watt more if I run a virtual machine (virtual box or vmware - I do not test containers, but I assume this will add overhead). The disks (I have 8) use also 3-5Watt each. Buying newer - larger disks, pays off, but it is insignificant what you save on power per year, most is burned by the CPU, so choose CPU and mainboard carefully. Unless you do not have to, avoid virtualization - it costs more energy. I hope this helps -- Steven Mainor On August 7, 2019 10:53:52 AM EDT, deloptes wrote: >Steven Mainor wrote: > >> I would like to keep the budget under $500 not including the hard >drive(s) >> I already have drives. Less is better. > >When I read server hardware I understand also server hardware. It has >many >CPUs a lot of ram, redundant power supply etc. It consumes a lot of >power >and costs a lot. >For under 500 you can not get any of this and for your use case you do >not >need this as well. > >Years ago I build one to serve our needs at home. It has 4 virtual CPU >and >32GB RAM - it uses 85Watt of power when not under load and it goes to >above >100 if I compile software on it. It uses 10Watt more if I run a virtual >machine (virtual box or vmware - I do not test containers, but I assume >this will add overhead). The disks (I have 8) use also 3-5Watt each. >Buying >newer - larger disks, pays off, but it is insignificant what you save >on >power per year, most is burned by the CPU, so choose CPU and mainboard >carefully. >Unless you do not have to, avoid virtualization - it costs more energy. > >I hope this helps
Re: Server hardware advice.
Depends on what you're trying to do. I run a small domain on a T1 without pictures or audio, so I'm using a Raspberry Pi 3 as a server. Quite a bit faster than the old PDP-11s the 'Net started out with, and significantly less expensive. And smaller. My domain used to be a lot larger, but still a T1 and very little video/audio. I used the bottom-of-the-line Dell servers back then, and bought my own RAM (Dell gets a lot for a RAM stick). The biggest advantage to the Dell servers, aside from the reliability of the components (over 15 years, I never had one fail), was that they could be bought without the Windows tax. If you're looking to do a full blown Google level server on a 10G connection, advice there is above my pay scale... -- Glenn English
Re: Server hardware advice.
On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 05:12:20PM +0200, deloptes wrote: Michael Stone wrote: Newer server hardware is much more power efficient and will draw very little power when idle. This is one of the drawbacks to saving money by using old hardware. (You can still use old hardware, just be sure it's new enough that it's from the era when power efficiency became a thing.) I am not sure who you are answering to. What's confusing about the attribution and text that I quoted? I recently looked at HP DL360 and DL380 Gen10. Yes indeed they are more power efficient compared to Gen9 in terms they provide more calculation cycles for the same power, but this can not be compared to a PC. HP g9 and g10 are both well past the dawn of the era of low idle consumption so there aren't huge differences to be found there. The base power consumption of that class of system is rather higher than a small desktop primarily because of redundancy and BMC (IPMI/remote management)--not the CPU. A different server chassis & motherboard choice will result in much lower base consumption, if the redundancy and remote management aren't needed. But even the HP DLs of the g9/g10 era can idle at around half the 85W you mentioned. (Whereas a comparable g6 might have idled over 100W, and even older servers idled at 300 or 400W.) The point is that it's not correct to assume that a "server" will have a high idle consumption, and if power efficiency is a goal it's achievable through reasonable selection of components. (Conversely, a "desktop" may have higher power consumption if it has a beefy GPU, and older desktops have much higher idle power just like older servers.)
Re: Server hardware advice.
Michael Stone wrote: > Newer server hardware is much more power efficient and will draw very > little power when idle. This is one of the drawbacks to saving money by > using old hardware. (You can still use old hardware, just be sure it's > new enough that it's from the era when power efficiency became a thing.) I am not sure who you are answering to. I recently looked at HP DL360 and DL380 Gen10. Yes indeed they are more power efficient compared to Gen9 in terms they provide more calculation cycles for the same power, but this can not be compared to a PC.
Re: Server hardware advice.
On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 04:53:52PM +0200, deloptes wrote: Years ago I build one to serve our needs at home. It has 4 virtual CPU and 32GB RAM - it uses 85Watt of power when not under load and it goes to above 100 if I compile software on it. It uses 10Watt more if I run a virtual machine (virtual box or vmware - I do not test containers, but I assume this will add overhead). Newer server hardware is much more power efficient and will draw very little power when idle. This is one of the drawbacks to saving money by using old hardware. (You can still use old hardware, just be sure it's new enough that it's from the era when power efficiency became a thing.)
Re: Server hardware advice.
Steven Mainor wrote: > I would like to keep the budget under $500 not including the hard drive(s) > I already have drives. Less is better. When I read server hardware I understand also server hardware. It has many CPUs a lot of ram, redundant power supply etc. It consumes a lot of power and costs a lot. For under 500 you can not get any of this and for your use case you do not need this as well. Years ago I build one to serve our needs at home. It has 4 virtual CPU and 32GB RAM - it uses 85Watt of power when not under load and it goes to above 100 if I compile software on it. It uses 10Watt more if I run a virtual machine (virtual box or vmware - I do not test containers, but I assume this will add overhead). The disks (I have 8) use also 3-5Watt each. Buying newer - larger disks, pays off, but it is insignificant what you save on power per year, most is burned by the CPU, so choose CPU and mainboard carefully. Unless you do not have to, avoid virtualization - it costs more energy. I hope this helps
Re: Server hardware advice.
On 2019-08-07 11:13, Nektarios Katakis wrote: On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:08:30 -0400 Steven Mainor wrote: You are correct. That was an oversight. Of all the items on that page I could probably afford the screwdriver and the heatsinks. I would like to keep the budget under $500 not including the hard drive(s) I already have drives. Less is better. -- Steven Mainor On August 7, 2019 1:52:15 AM EDT, Richard Hector wrote: >On 7/08/19 5:29 PM, Steven Mainor wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a >> primary >focus on >> security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will >> serve 3 >to 5 >> people at most. >> >> My requirements are: >> >> A server setup that can be run with completely open source >> software >and >> doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything >> closed >source for >> this particular project. >> >> A gigabit ethernet port. >> >> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to. >> >> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail >> server >from an >> encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput >saving and >> reading files from nextcloud. >> >> I would just build something x86 based but the amd/intel Platform >Security >> Processor/IME stuff makes me nervous. >> >> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the >> ones >listed >> here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW >> >> I like the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but I am not sure the processor >> will >be enough >> to handle the overhead from an encrypted hard drive. I also don't >like that it >> is only 32-bit since that will limit the file size nextcloud can >handle as I >> understand it. >> >> Is there anything similar to the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but more >powerful or is >> there a better option I haven't read about yet? > >You haven't mentioned a budget, but strong emphasis on security and >openness ... > >https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/ ? > >Richard I have a similar home setup and have to say that with the mail service and seafile server (and a few smaller services) running in docker the setup the PC is already consuming 1G of ram. I m using an old PC. I wouldnt suggest a less powerful box as you will run out of ram. If you need fanless checkout an intel nuc. Debian should run fine with it although I think it will need some drivers from the non-free repos. Regards, I use old Lenovos which are quiet and so cheap (20UKP)you can have one for each job. Don't bother with cloud but scp files about. Don't know how the webmail would manage with multiple connections. mick -- Key ID4BFEBB31
Re: Server hardware advice.
Hi. On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 05:58:57AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote: > Thanks for the reply. Those seem like options to consider. The > pre-orders for the helios4 seem to be sold out for now. They are currently at fourth "campaign", i.e. they're manufacturing a fourth batch. Supply is limited (they produce like a thousand boards per batch), your best bet is a preorder (I got mine at their second "campaign"). Hopefully they do fifth. Reco
Re: Server hardware advice.
Quoting Steven Mainor (2019-08-07 12:04:35) > Perhaps you are right about usb 2.0. And the Olimex A64-OLinuXino does > seem like a solid option otherwise. > > I wasn't able to verify which usb the Olimex A64-OLinuXino had. It > didn't specifically say on the specs page. And the github link for the > schematic seems to be broken. > > https://github.com/OLIMEX/OLINUXINO/blob/master/HARDWARE/A64-OLinuXino/A64-OlinuXino_Rev_C.pdf They reorganized and updated that git. Try step back to https://github.com/OLIMEX/OLINUXINO/tree/master/HARDWARE/A64-OLinuXino See also https://linux-sunxi.org/Olimex_A64-OLinuXino - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: Server hardware advice.
On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:08:30 -0400 Steven Mainor wrote: > You are correct. That was an oversight. > > Of all the items on that page I could probably afford the screwdriver > and the heatsinks. > > I would like to keep the budget under $500 not including the hard > drive(s) I already have drives. Less is better. -- > Steven Mainor > > On August 7, 2019 1:52:15 AM EDT, Richard Hector > wrote: > >On 7/08/19 5:29 PM, Steven Mainor wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a > >> primary > >focus on > >> security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will > >> serve 3 > >to 5 > >> people at most. > >> > >> My requirements are: > >> > >> A server setup that can be run with completely open source > >> software > >and > >> doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything > >> closed > >source for > >> this particular project. > >> > >> A gigabit ethernet port. > >> > >> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to. > >> > >> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail > >> server > >from an > >> encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput > >saving and > >> reading files from nextcloud. > >> > >> I would just build something x86 based but the amd/intel Platform > >Security > >> Processor/IME stuff makes me nervous. > >> > >> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the > >> ones > >listed > >> here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW > >> > >> I like the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but I am not sure the processor > >> will > >be enough > >> to handle the overhead from an encrypted hard drive. I also don't > >like that it > >> is only 32-bit since that will limit the file size nextcloud can > >handle as I > >> understand it. > >> > >> Is there anything similar to the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but more > >powerful or is > >> there a better option I haven't read about yet? > > > >You haven't mentioned a budget, but strong emphasis on security and > >openness ... > > > >https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/ ? > > > >Richard I have a similar home setup and have to say that with the mail service and seafile server (and a few smaller services) running in docker the setup the PC is already consuming 1G of ram. I m using an old PC. I wouldnt suggest a less powerful box as you will run out of ram. If you need fanless checkout an intel nuc. Debian should run fine with it although I think it will need some drivers from the non-free repos. Regards, -- Nektarios Katakis
Re: Server hardware advice.
Perhaps you are right about usb 2.0. And the Olimex A64-OLinuXino does seem like a solid option otherwise. I wasn't able to verify which usb the Olimex A64-OLinuXino had. It didn't specifically say on the specs page. And the github link for the schematic seems to be broken. https://github.com/OLIMEX/OLINUXINO/blob/master/HARDWARE/A64-OLinuXino/A64-OlinuXino_Rev_C.pdf -- Steven Mainor On August 7, 2019 4:21:25 AM EDT, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: >Quoting Reco (2019-08-07 08:53:52) >> On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 01:29:21AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote: >> > I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary > >> > focus on security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that >> > will serve 3 to 5 people at most. >> > >> > My requirements are: >> > >> > A server setup that can be run with completely open source software > >> > and doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything >> > closed source for this particular project. >> > >> > A gigabit ethernet port. >> > >> > A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to. >> > >> > Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server > >> > from an encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate >> > throughput saving and reading files from nextcloud. >> >> These fit all your requirements (i.e. it'll run stock buster kernel >> without any additional firmware): >> >> Helios4 - [1]. 4 SATA ports controller attached to PCI-E. >> GnuBee - [2]. 6 SATA ports attached to PCI-E. >> Odroid HC2 - [3]. Single SATA port, attached to USB bus. > >No powerful computers exist today completely without non-free parts: >Since you point to Open Source Hardware below, beware that none of >above >devices are OSHWA certified: https://certification.oshwa.org/list.html >- >if however your freedom concerns are limited to _software_ parts then >it >is easier: Look for boards supported in mainline Linux and u-boot, and >supported in Debian! > >Disregarding OSHW I agree that above options are good highlights. >Additionally I suggest Olimex A64-Olinuxino and ESPRESSObin, both >(unlike above options) known to be mainlined and work with Debian >Buster. > >Personally, for hosting mail + Nextcloud for a small team I would >tolerate USB2.0 and use the OSHWA certified board Olimex A64-Olinuxino. > >Only for heavy professional demands (e.g. an advertising agency pushing > >big files across a LAN all the time) I would use a Helios4. > > >> > So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones >> > listed here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW > >Happy to see that list being of use beyond the FreedomBox project and >my >own competing https://solidbox.org/ :-) > >Please note that above list is limited to more consumer-oriented >devices >than your spec needs - e.g. must be sold with a proper case and be >cheaper than you tolerate. > > >> That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in the > >> day. > >Care to elaborate? > > > - Jonas > >-- > * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt > * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ > > [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private
Re: Server hardware advice.
Thanks for the reply. Those seem like options to consider. The pre-orders for the helios4 seem to be sold out for now. -- Steven Mainor On August 7, 2019 2:53:52 AM EDT, Reco wrote: >On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 01:29:21AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary >focus on >> security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 >to 5 >> people at most. >> >> My requirements are: >> >> A server setup that can be run with completely open source software >and >> doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed >source for >> this particular project. >> >> A gigabit ethernet port. >> >> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to. >> >> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server >from an >> encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput >saving and >> reading files from nextcloud. > > These fit all your requirements (i.e. it'll run stock buster kernel >without any additional firmware): > >Helios4 - [1]. 4 SATA ports controller attached to PCI-E. >GnuBee - [2]. 6 SATA ports attached to PCI-E. >Odroid HC2 - [3]. Single SATA port, attached to USB bus. > > >> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones >listed >> here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW > >That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in the >day. > >Reco > >[1] https://kobol.io/ >[2] http://gnubee.org/ >[3] https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-hc2-home-cloud-two/
Re: Server hardware advice.
Quoting Reco (2019-08-07 10:53:35) > On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 10:21:25AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: > > > That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in > > > the day. > > > > Care to elaborate? > > Specifically it gave me an idea to buy that Linksys WRT1200. > Works for me since stretch, the only disadvantages are the need to > build an out-of-tree kernel module (mwlwifi) for WiFi and feed it > non-free firmware. > But I needed a router, the thing fit the need. So when you wrote "That list is outdated somewhat" you really meant "That list didn't fit my needs and was inspirational even then." Great to hear that! - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: Server hardware advice.
On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 10:21:25AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: > > That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in the > > day. > > Care to elaborate? Specifically it gave me an idea to buy that Linksys WRT1200. Works for me since stretch, the only disadvantages are the need to build an out-of-tree kernel module (mwlwifi) for WiFi and feed it non-free firmware. But I needed a router, the thing fit the need. Reco
Re: Server hardware advice.
Quoting john doe (2019-08-07 09:33:35) > On 8/7/2019 8:53 AM, Reco wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 01:29:21AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote: > >> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary > >> focus on security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that > >> will serve 3 to 5 people at most. > >> > >> My requirements are: > >> > >> A server setup that can be run with completely open source software > >> and doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything > >> closed source for this particular project. > >> > >> A gigabit ethernet port. > >> > >> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to. > >> > >> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server > >> from an encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate > >> throughput saving and reading files from nextcloud. > > > > These fit all your requirements (i.e. it'll run stock buster kernel > > without any additional firmware): > > > > Helios4 - [1]. 4 SATA ports controller attached to PCI-E. > > GnuBee - [2]. 6 SATA ports attached to PCI-E. > > Odroid HC2 - [3]. Single SATA port, attached to USB bus. > > > > > >> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones > >> listed here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW > > > > That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in > > the day. > > > > Reco > > > > [1] https://kobol.io/ > > [2] http://gnubee.org/ > > [3] https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-hc2-home-cloud-two/ > > > > I don't have a room dedicated to my devices, is there any solution > that is fan less? > Url (3) looks to be the case. The ODroid board ships with huge passive cooling which helps if the room is adequately cool - and otherwise will "throttle" - i.e. run at lower speeds to avoid meltdown. Heat is indeed a reason to consider other boards than above. My recommendation is to buy the industrial-grade A64-OLinuXino-2Ge8G-IND https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A64/A64-OLinuXino/open-source-hardware - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: Server hardware advice.
Quoting Reco (2019-08-07 08:53:52) > On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 01:29:21AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote: > > I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary > > focus on security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that > > will serve 3 to 5 people at most. > > > > My requirements are: > > > > A server setup that can be run with completely open source software > > and doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything > > closed source for this particular project. > > > > A gigabit ethernet port. > > > > A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to. > > > > Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server > > from an encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate > > throughput saving and reading files from nextcloud. > > These fit all your requirements (i.e. it'll run stock buster kernel > without any additional firmware): > > Helios4 - [1]. 4 SATA ports controller attached to PCI-E. > GnuBee - [2]. 6 SATA ports attached to PCI-E. > Odroid HC2 - [3]. Single SATA port, attached to USB bus. No powerful computers exist today completely without non-free parts: Since you point to Open Source Hardware below, beware that none of above devices are OSHWA certified: https://certification.oshwa.org/list.html - if however your freedom concerns are limited to _software_ parts then it is easier: Look for boards supported in mainline Linux and u-boot, and supported in Debian! Disregarding OSHW I agree that above options are good highlights. Additionally I suggest Olimex A64-Olinuxino and ESPRESSObin, both (unlike above options) known to be mainlined and work with Debian Buster. Personally, for hosting mail + Nextcloud for a small team I would tolerate USB2.0 and use the OSHWA certified board Olimex A64-Olinuxino. Only for heavy professional demands (e.g. an advertising agency pushing big files across a LAN all the time) I would use a Helios4. > > So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones > > listed here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW Happy to see that list being of use beyond the FreedomBox project and my own competing https://solidbox.org/ :-) Please note that above list is limited to more consumer-oriented devices than your spec needs - e.g. must be sold with a proper case and be cheaper than you tolerate. > That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in the > day. Care to elaborate? - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: Server hardware advice.
On 8/7/2019 8:53 AM, Reco wrote: > On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 01:29:21AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary focus on >> security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 to 5 >> people at most. >> >> My requirements are: >> >> A server setup that can be run with completely open source software and >> doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed source >> for >> this particular project. >> >> A gigabit ethernet port. >> >> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to. >> >> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server from an >> encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput saving and >> reading files from nextcloud. > > These fit all your requirements (i.e. it'll run stock buster kernel > without any additional firmware): > > Helios4 - [1]. 4 SATA ports controller attached to PCI-E. > GnuBee - [2]. 6 SATA ports attached to PCI-E. > Odroid HC2 - [3]. Single SATA port, attached to USB bus. > > >> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones listed >> here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW > > That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in the > day. > > Reco > > [1] https://kobol.io/ > [2] http://gnubee.org/ > [3] https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-hc2-home-cloud-two/ > I don't have a room dedicated to my devices, is there any solution that is fan less? Url (3) looks to be the case. -- John Doe
Re: Server hardware advice.
On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 01:29:21AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary focus on > security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 to 5 > people at most. > > My requirements are: > > A server setup that can be run with completely open source software and > doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed source > for > this particular project. > > A gigabit ethernet port. > > A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to. > > Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server from an > encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput saving and > reading files from nextcloud. These fit all your requirements (i.e. it'll run stock buster kernel without any additional firmware): Helios4 - [1]. 4 SATA ports controller attached to PCI-E. GnuBee - [2]. 6 SATA ports attached to PCI-E. Odroid HC2 - [3]. Single SATA port, attached to USB bus. > So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones listed > here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in the day. Reco [1] https://kobol.io/ [2] http://gnubee.org/ [3] https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-hc2-home-cloud-two/
Re: Server hardware advice.
You are correct. That was an oversight. Of all the items on that page I could probably afford the screwdriver and the heatsinks. I would like to keep the budget under $500 not including the hard drive(s) I already have drives. Less is better. -- Steven Mainor On August 7, 2019 1:52:15 AM EDT, Richard Hector wrote: >On 7/08/19 5:29 PM, Steven Mainor wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary >focus on >> security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 >to 5 >> people at most. >> >> My requirements are: >> >> A server setup that can be run with completely open source software >and >> doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed >source for >> this particular project. >> >> A gigabit ethernet port. >> >> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to. >> >> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server >from an >> encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput >saving and >> reading files from nextcloud. >> >> I would just build something x86 based but the amd/intel Platform >Security >> Processor/IME stuff makes me nervous. >> >> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones >listed >> here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW >> >> I like the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but I am not sure the processor will >be enough >> to handle the overhead from an encrypted hard drive. I also don't >like that it >> is only 32-bit since that will limit the file size nextcloud can >handle as I >> understand it. >> >> Is there anything similar to the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but more >powerful or is >> there a better option I haven't read about yet? > >You haven't mentioned a budget, but strong emphasis on security and >openness ... > >https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/ ? > >Richard
Re: Server hardware advice.
On 7/08/19 5:29 PM, Steven Mainor wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary focus on > security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 to 5 > people at most. > > My requirements are: > > A server setup that can be run with completely open source software and > doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed source > for > this particular project. > > A gigabit ethernet port. > > A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to. > > Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server from an > encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput saving and > reading files from nextcloud. > > I would just build something x86 based but the amd/intel Platform Security > Processor/IME stuff makes me nervous. > > So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones listed > here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW > > I like the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but I am not sure the processor will be enough > to handle the overhead from an encrypted hard drive. I also don't like that > it > is only 32-bit since that will limit the file size nextcloud can handle as I > understand it. > > Is there anything similar to the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but more powerful or is > there a better option I haven't read about yet? You haven't mentioned a budget, but strong emphasis on security and openness ... https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/ ? Richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature