Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
David Webster wrote: Well Windows and OS/2 don't seem to have a problem with letting you configure your sound stuff right up front. How hard is it to add a sound item to modconf screen used in in the Drivers Configuration phase of the install?. Afterall, these drivers are all modules and each could have it's own documentation for configuring io, irq, dma, etc... if need be. We seem to have no trouble putting dozens of ethernet card configs in the net option. What makes sound so different? I disagree with this statement. Installing support for a soundblaster awe32 card on NT is not done up-front. It has to be done after the system is installed and the correct drivers have been located on the internet. The NT boot disks do not have any support for sound cards. The NT CDROM only has a limited number of drivers available. I have to download drivers for my video card, sound card, printer and zip drive and install these manually after completing the initial installation. These drivers are not found on the Microsoft site either. At least with hamm I have everything on a single CDROM and don't require to download drivers/modules/kernels. The only real pain is re-linking the kernel first off. You can guess which system I find easier to install.
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, George Bonser wrote: : On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Hamish Moffatt wrote: : : On Thu, Feb 11, 1999 at 09:09:32AM -0600, David Webster wrote: : During the drivers installation phase there is no facility for : installing sound card info. I find this quite odd since sound is as : ubiquitous in computing today as ethernet and TCP/IP. The failure to : : Not on Unix, IMHO. But anyway ... : : Huh? Just about every commercial Unix has audio support by default. When : was the last time you installed Solaris? I get great delight from sending : weird sounds to people's Sun workstations from time to time. The : flatulnt newbie is my favorite trick. Works great in cube-farms. Yeah, and Suns have as many variations as exist in the Intel world ... not. This is an advantage to closed architecture (see Apple Computing :) Nevertheless, it's probably possible to make sound installation a lot less painful with Linux (and specifically Debian), but I don't know how to do this ... -- Nathan Norman MidcoNet 410 South Phillips Avenue Sioux Falls, SD mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.midco.net finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP Key: (0xA33B86E9)
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
On Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 07:05:36PM +0100, Martin Bialasinski wrote: r == robbie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: r Why does debian not include sound modules in the default kernel package? Because sound in 2.0 kernels is not modular enough. IO, IRQ etc. have to be hardcoded into the kernel. Some option must not be set for some soundcard, whereas others have to be etc. ok If you want to use the OSS Soundsystem in 2.0 a kernel, you have to recompile the kernel. Don't know about ALSA. alsa is fully modular. no need to compile the kernel. For 2.2 kernels, The OSS can be modularised. The installdisks don't have room for this anyway. Yes, I know. r Or maybe a sepperate package with sound modules which depends on r the kernel. Why bother with this. You should recompile your kernel anyway (to get a slim version that only has the things you use). With kernel-package, this is a breeze. I strongly disaggree with that. Thats like saying I should recompile X to have support for my video card. The idea of a distribution with binary packages is that you don't have to compile things to get them to work. This should apply to the kernel aswell. Btw, Redhat have had modular sound drivers for a while afaik (but I have heard they don't work too well). Ciao, Martin -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null -- Robbie Murray
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
On Sat, 13 Feb 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 2/13/99 12:09:41 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] treff.uni-koeln.de writes: Because sound in 2.0 kernels is not modular enough. IO, IRQ etc. have to be hardcoded into the kernel. Some option must not be set for some soundcard, whereas others have to be etc. Is there some reason these can't be set up in a config file so that it CAN be included in the initial installation? Seems to me hardcoding these values is against Debian's policy of allowing us to configure everything but the kitchen sink. It can probably be done when we move to 2.2.x on the boot floppies. Matthew -- Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo Steward of the Cambridge Tolkien Society Selwyn College Computer Support http://www.cam.ac.uk/CambUniv/Societies/tolkien/ http://pick.sel.cam.ac.uk/ Debian GNU/Hurd - love at first byte
RE: Sound configuration not in initial install
I very much agree with Robbie. We are in a very modern age of multimedia computers (something Bill and the Boys do deserve credit for) and it's very likely that the majority of end-users have sound cards they would like to use. Have this hacker mentality of well if I Can do it you can too does help anyone when there is nothing beyond volunteer support and sparse and often confusing documentation to help you out. I consider my self a fairly savvy computer use and I do secondly level troubleshooting for a living. I have never been able to successfully recompile my kernel for sound even with the assistance of some very very helpful people on the list. The only reason I even attempted this was to gain sound. I had several reasons for wanting to learn Linux but as a musician my stance quickly becomes, No sound, why bother? After several months of frustration on this very issue, I tried RedHat. I imagine my surprise to find a distribution that had X, sound and a networked printer setup in less than an hour on the first try!!! I realize my months of practice with Debian made some of the process much easier but some very thoughtful developers deserve a lot of credit for their forward thinking on EU usability. I dropped RedHat because I simply believe Debian is a much better distribution overall. RedHat doesn't have anything close to APT yet and the Debian team gets kudos for manageability. I haven't really used Linux since October out of the hope that Slink would have the updated kernel with it's added multimedia features or that a sound utility would be added to the setup. Now with Slink pushed back for the fifth time and frozen before the new kernels release, I'm thinking that Debian will probably have to wait until next Winter when hopefully we'll have Potato. Cristov Russell -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 13, 1999 7:07 PM To: Debian Userslist Subject: Re: Sound configuration not in initial install On Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 07:05:36PM +0100, Martin Bialasinski wrote: r == robbie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: r Why does debian not include sound modules in the default kernel package? Because sound in 2.0 kernels is not modular enough. IO, IRQ etc. have to be hardcoded into the kernel. Some option must not be set for some soundcard, whereas others have to be etc. ok If you want to use the OSS Soundsystem in 2.0 a kernel, you have to recompile the kernel. Don't know about ALSA. alsa is fully modular. no need to compile the kernel. For 2.2 kernels, The OSS can be modularised. The installdisks don't have room for this anyway. Yes, I know. r Or maybe a sepperate package with sound modules which depends on r the kernel. Why bother with this. You should recompile your kernel anyway (to get a slim version that only has the things you use). With kernel-package, this is a breeze. I strongly disaggree with that. Thats like saying I should recompile X to have support for my video card. The idea of a distribution with binary packages is that you don't have to compile things to get them to work. This should apply to the kernel aswell. Btw, Redhat have had modular sound drivers for a while afaik (but I have heard they don't work too well). Ciao, Martin -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null -- Robbie Murray
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
On Thu, Feb 11, 1999 at 09:09:32AM -0600, David Webster wrote: During the drivers installation phase there is no facility for installing sound card info. I find this quite odd since sound is as ubiquitous in computing today as ethernet and TCP/IP. The failure to Not on Unix, IMHO. But anyway ... not allow us to configure sound at the outset forces us newbies to go into the daunting task of recompiling a kernel which I have yet to do successfully as something always seems to get mucked up!! This is REAL shortcoming for Debian and I assume sound configuration will be part of the base modconf come release 2.2?? On Linux 2.0, you have to recompile the kernel to tell the sound driver about your hardware (right down to IO address, DMA and IRQ). There are patches around to fix this but none are in the vanilla 2.0.36 kernel. Linux 2.2, on the other hand, does have this. In 2.2, I have the following sound modules: soundcore, sound, sb, and uart401. The configuration information is given on the command line to insmod or in /etc/modutils. In 2.0, on the other hand, I have just the module sound. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3TYD [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5 CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome. http://hamish.home.ml.org
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 01:25:29AM -0800, George Bonser wrote: On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Hamish Moffatt wrote: On Thu, Feb 11, 1999 at 09:09:32AM -0600, David Webster wrote: During the drivers installation phase there is no facility for installing sound card info. I find this quite odd since sound is as ubiquitous in computing today as ethernet and TCP/IP. The failure to Not on Unix, IMHO. But anyway ... Huh? Just about every commercial Unix has audio support by default. When was the last time you installed Solaris? I get great delight from sending Never, to be honest :-) weird sounds to people's Sun workstations from time to time. The flatulnt newbie is my favorite trick. Works great in cube-farms. Hmmm, OK then. My HP-UX workstation at work is supremely silent, but apart from that all I use is linux. That is why I just spring for the $20 and get the OSS sound drivers. I refuse on principle. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3TYD [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5 CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome. http://hamish.home.ml.org
RE: Sound configuration not in initial install
gain sound. I had several reasons for wanting to learn Linux but as a musician my stance quickly becomes, No sound, why bother? What is your sound card? I haven't really used Linux since October out of the hope that Slink would have the updated kernel with it's added multimedia features or that a sound utility would be added to the setup. Now with Slink pushed back for the fifth time and frozen before the new kernels release, I'm thinking that Debian will probably have to wait until next Winter when hopefully we'll have Potato. You can download the kernel sources from many mirrors, and compile your own 2.2.1 kernel (the kernel-package package makes this easy) Matthew -- Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo Steward of the Cambridge Tolkien Society Selwyn College Computer Support http://www.cam.ac.uk/CambUniv/Societies/tolkien/ http://pick.sel.cam.ac.uk/ Debian GNU/Hurd - love at first byte
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
M == MallarJ [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: M In a message dated 2/13/99 12:09:41 PM Central Standard Time, M [EMAIL PROTECTED] treff.uni-koeln.de writes: Because sound in 2.0 kernels is not modular enough. IO, IRQ etc. have to be hardcoded into the kernel. Some option must not be set for some soundcard, whereas others have to be etc. M Is there some reason these can't be set up in a config file so that M it CAN be included in the initial installation? Yes. It is a kernel/driver issue. The OSS as present in 2.0 kernels has to have the things compiled into it. m Seems to me hardcoding these values is against Debian's policy of m allowing us to configure everything but the kitchen sink. There is no such policy. And we can't rewrite the linux kernel. Anyway, this is academic. The 2.2 kernel series has sounddrivers which can be be given irq and io values on load. Ciao, Martin
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
r == robbie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: r On Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 07:05:36PM +0100, Martin Bialasinski wrote: Why bother with this. You should recompile your kernel anyway (to get a slim version that only has the things you use). With kernel-package, this is a breeze. r I strongly disaggree with that. Thats like saying I should r recompile X to have support for my video card. The kernel on the install disk has to support as many hardware as possible. It is a kernel for installation, not for daily use. It contains drivers for SCSI cards I don't own, for archaic CDROM drives for disk arrays, etc. pp. The kernel you recompile will be optimised for your prozessor type, and will only contain the drivers you need. Thous it will be faster and smaller. r The idea of a distribution with binary packages is that you don't r have to compile things to get them to work. This should apply to r the kernel aswell. With sound it is technically not possible. And beside that, you can use the kernel from the install disks, but it is not the best one possible for your computer. Ciao, Martin
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
GB == George Bonser [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: GB Huh? Just about every commercial Unix has audio support by GB default. When was the last time you installed Solaris? Can you choose between different soundcards, when you buy Solaris? Anyway, the 2.2 kernel has modular sound support, so just wait or recompile the kernel. Ciao, Martin
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 12:21:44PM +0100, Martin Bialasinski wrote: r == robbie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: r On Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 07:05:36PM +0100, Martin Bialasinski wrote: Why bother with this. You should recompile your kernel anyway (to get a slim version that only has the things you use). With kernel-package, this is a breeze. r I strongly disaggree with that. Thats like saying I should r recompile X to have support for my video card. The kernel on the install disk has to support as many hardware as possible. It is a kernel for installation, not for daily use. It contains drivers for SCSI cards I don't own, for archaic CDROM drives for disk arrays, etc. pp. The kernel you recompile will be optimised for your prozessor type, and will only contain the drivers you need. Thous it will be faster and smaller. no. It will be about the same size. Thats what modules are for. They allow you to change the drivers without kompiling anything. We are obviously talking about Potato, because slink is frozen. Potato will have kernel 2.2.x. The sound drivers in 2.2.x are built as modules, there is no configuration required at compile time. They will even co-exist with the alsa drivers, which are also modules. r The idea of a distribution with binary packages is that you don't r have to compile things to get them to work. This should apply to r the kernel aswell. With sound it is technically not possible. And beside that, you can use the kernel from the install disks, but it is not the best one possible for your computer. There is also not much difference. The only things you can gain from compiling your own kernel are cpu optimizations, and things like firewall support or router support. Sound cards are much more common today than routers and firewalls. Maybe I am wrong about debian using modules for all the drivers, but if they dont, why not? There is initrd so you don't need a driver compiled in for your boot device. Regards Rob
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
David Webster wrote: Well Windows and OS/2 don't seem to have a problem with letting you configure your sound stuff right up front. How hard is it to add a sound item to modconf screen used in in the Drivers Configuration phase of the install?. Afterall, these drivers are all modules and each could have it's own documentation for configuring io, irq, dma, etc... if need be. We seem to have no trouble putting dozens of ethernet card configs in the net option. What makes sound so different? Sound support in Linux is dependent upon the number of people willing to work on the project. Linux's popularity has always been with the server 'crowd', those wanting to use Linux as a web/file/print server. Thus the presense of so many ethernet cards supported in the kernel's config. Personnaly, I don't know why they decided to move some of the config out of the kernel, and into /dev and /proc. Start with http://alsa.jcu.cz/ (Advanced Linux Sound Architexture), or maybe someone on debian has a clue. If Linux is ever going to seriously challenge Windows on the desktop we've got be able to allow newbies to completely configure their system right up front without the daunting requirement to go through a complex kernel reconfig and recompile. The Debian Kernel-Package is a nice start for this but a lot of the complexities should be hidden and auto-recompile of the kernel with only the options the user has selected should just simply happen. If we all agreed that Linux was 'gunning' for the Windows desktop market then we'd all agree to the above. However, not everyone is in agreement on that point, except that many *do* agree Linux is competing head-to-head against Windows NT. Many developers are simply *uninterested* in the desktop environment. Work is being done (look at the ALSA website) but not as fast on the sound issue as compared to work on the kernel itself. It all depends on the numbers of developers and testers willing to work on the sound issue. Also, part of the problem is the current absence of a sound standard for Linux. That's what ALSA intends to be, but that means the people behind this are starting from scratch (well, using OSS/Lite as a base, but their API will be from scratch). The Debian install script is nice (better than RH). But they should allow us to configure our sound right up front, even if it means a large list of modules in a sound option, much like what the net option is becoming. The inital dselect should then give you a very base system including the packages needed for a recompile and then go straight into a recompile process building the custom kernel from the user's initial options. (including sound). After the new kernel is booted we should then bring up the dselect (optionally) again with all the various package combinations as it is now. That describes what many hope the end result will be. i know that is wishful thinking, but as soon as I get my ssytem finally configued the way I want it I intend to begin working a completely new installation system as my first order of business. Something much, much more familiar to Windows crowd complete with documentation that actually shows you how to do it. Its not wishful thinking. First, take a look at the 'linuxconf' project. I don't know if its Debian compatible, but they may be already doing some of the things that you describe. i also find it quirky that the kernel-package documentation never tells you you have to edit your /etc/modules file if you add/delete modules from your kernel.or simply edits it for you. If you have new modules that require optional paraemter you also have to manually edit the /etc/conf.modules files (more nonsense). Plus the thing never seems to get all the modules copied to the /lib/modules/X.X.XXX path(particularly the fs modules) nor is the module.dep file ever 100% correct. I hope to maybe work on that someday, too. This Unix culture has a long way to go in the ease of use category. But no question about it the efficiency and performance is unparralleled. This stuff still has an onerous learning curve. P.S. please CC me if you wish; I'm currently unsubscribed to debian-user because of some email problem. -- Ed C.
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
r == robbie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: r Why does debian not include sound modules in the default kernel package? Because sound in 2.0 kernels is not modular enough. IO, IRQ etc. have to be hardcoded into the kernel. Some option must not be set for some soundcard, whereas others have to be etc. If you want to use the OSS Soundsystem in 2.0 a kernel, you have to recompile the kernel. Don't know about ALSA. For 2.2 kernels, The OSS can be modularised. The installdisks don't have room for this anyway. r Or maybe a sepperate package with sound modules which depends on r the kernel. Why bother with this. You should recompile your kernel anyway (to get a slim version that only has the things you use). With kernel-package, this is a breeze. Ciao, Martin
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
In a message dated 2/13/99 12:09:41 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] treff.uni-koeln.de writes: Because sound in 2.0 kernels is not modular enough. IO, IRQ etc. have to be hardcoded into the kernel. Some option must not be set for some soundcard, whereas others have to be etc. Is there some reason these can't be set up in a config file so that it CAN be included in the initial installation? Seems to me hardcoding these values is against Debian's policy of allowing us to configure everything but the kitchen sink. -Jay
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 2/13/99 12:09:41 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] treff.uni-koeln.de writes: Because sound in 2.0 kernels is not modular enough. IO, IRQ etc. have to be hardcoded into the kernel. Some option must not be set for some soundcard, whereas others have to be etc. Is there some reason these can't be set up in a config file so that it CAN be included in the initial installation? Seems to me hardcoding these values is against Debian's policy of allowing us to configure everything but the kitchen sink. Well this might be the reason the config of sound is no longer being done in the kernel as of 2.2.1. You still must select the right sound driver in the kernel and build it as a module. The IRQ/DMA configuration can now be done via text files in /etc/modutils, so getting sound setup in an initial install may now be possible. -- Ed C.
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
Hi all. Why does debian not include sound modules in the default kernel package? Or maybe a sepperate package with sound modules which depends on the kernel. Regards Rob
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
I think that there is far too much variation in sound cards for them to be supported in the generic initial kernel. Perhaps support for whatever the most typical sound setup might be could be compiled in. I don't know. That would only help a subset of new users anyway. My impression is that the 'sound industry' needs to arrive at a common protocol before Linux could achieve generic sound support. Instead, they climbed in bed with Mr. Gates. Meanwhile, we'd be happy to try to help you compile a kernel if you provide some details as to the dismal results you've gotten. Richard Hall Network Services University of Tennessee
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
I got around these problems with a $20 purchase. I downloaded the OSS Linux driver from www.opensound.com and installed it. It worked the very first time. Now I don't need to configure sound in the kernel at all. -- Andrew
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
Buying OSS could be a way, yes... But what would you need sound for the very first minute you install Linux for anyway? I think that you'd have more things to do than listen to music. Andrew --- Andrei S. Ivanov [EMAIL PROTECTED] UIN 12402354 http://members.tripod.com/AnSIv
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
David Webster wrote: During the drivers installation phase there is no facility for installing sound card info. I find this quite odd since sound is as ubiquitous in computing today as ethernet and TCP/IP. The failure to not allow us to configure sound at the outset forces us newbies to go into the daunting task of recompiling a kernel which I have yet to do successfully as something always seems to get mucked up!! This is REAL shortcoming for Debian and I assume sound configuration will be part of the base modconf come release 2.2?? By the way I have used both the brute force kernel recompile/install secquences out of the HOWTO's and the Debian Kernel-Package approach, both to dismal results. Sadly, I don't think sound config will ever be handled in the initial install anytime in the near future. Sound is already difficult to configure and with the 2.2 kernel its gets even a little *more* complicated, because part of the sound config has been moved from the kernel to text config files in /etc/modutils/* (or etc/modules.conf). Because of this, and the fact that sound isn't essential for the initial install process, its not going to be handled by the Debian installer for some time into the future. As for your difficulty compiling a kernel, why don't you post the problem you are having, including all error messages that occur, to this list? Someone might be able to help you. -- Ed C.
Re: Sound configuration not in initial install
Hmm, if Linux isn't going to provide sound configuration on the initial install, then why not note that on the main package selection screen that comes up on a clean install and give directions on how to recall the initial package selector once sound has been configured. This would help people who might be able to follow a menuconfig of the kernel and get sound support installed, but who have no idea which of the many sound related .deb's to install. Allowing the end user to run the package selector (and givng brief directions on the same in the menu) will mean that it will be easier for people to run Linux successfully the first time, thus giving another person a reason to _continue_ using Linux. I know from experience that when you intially install Debian you get the choice to include Sound Support Files, but nothing is said about needing to recompile the kernel until dselect glitches on installing GOM. For someone trying to migrate from the Microsoft world this can be more than a bit confusing. - BOHICA David Webster wrote: During the drivers installation phase there is no facility for installing sound card info. I find this quite odd since sound is as ubiquitous in computing today as ethernet and TCP/IP. The failure to not allow us to configure sound at the outset forces us newbies to go into the daunting task of recompiling a kernel which I have yet to do successfully as something always seems to get mucked up!! This is REAL shortcoming for Debian and I assume sound configuration will be part of the base modconf come release 2.2?? By the way I have used both the brute force kernel recompile/install secquences out of the HOWTO's and the Debian Kernel-Package approach, both to dismal results. Sadly, I don't think sound config will ever be handled in the initial install anytime in the near future. Sound is already difficult to configure and with the 2.2 kernel its gets even a little *more* complicated, because part of the sound config has been moved from the kernel to text config files in /etc/modutils/* (or etc/modules.conf). Because of this, and the fact that sound isn't essential for the initial install process, its not going to be handled by the Debian installer for some time into the future. As for your difficulty compiling a kernel, why don't you post the problem you are having, including all error messages that occur, to this list? Someone might be able to help you. -- Ed C.
