subject:"Re\: Why Debian"

No, I didn't take the kernel development. I am just a data scientist, using
python, R, spark, hadoop to do the application jobs.

Thanks.

On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 1:33 PM SAIFI  wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Dec 2021, Piper H wrote:
>
> > For debian and ubuntu, which one should I choose as my personal
> development  system?
>
> @Piper, if intend to do 'development' work in modern C++ on your system,
> suggest you download 'bookworm'. This gets you glibc-2.32-4 and hence gcc
> 11.2.0-2
>
> Here is the link
>
> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/daily-builds/daily/arch-latest/amd64/iso-cd/debian-testing-amd64-netinst.iso
>
>
> warm regards
> Saifi.
>
>

Re: why Debian?

2021-12-02 Thread SAIFI


On Thu, 2 Dec 2021, Piper H wrote:


For debian and ubuntu, which one should I choose as my personal development  
system?


@Piper, if intend to do 'development' work in modern C++ on your system, 
suggest you download 'bookworm'. This gets you glibc-2.32-4 and hence gcc 
11.2.0-2

Here is the link
https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/daily-builds/daily/arch-latest/amd64/iso-cd/debian-testing-amd64-netinst.iso


warm regards
Saifi.

Re: why Debian?

Thanks for the info you provided @Karthik  .
That would be very helpful

Regards
Piper




On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 7:03 AM Karthik  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 1:37 AM Piper H  wrote:
> >
> > @Karthik glad to see the info you providesd.
>
> You're welcome,feel free to ask questions,Im happy to help
>
> > Especially for cudnn running on ubuntu 18.04 and above.
> It's just 18.04 and not above as other versions only have partial support
> LTS versions like 16.04,20.04 seem to have support but I haven't tested
> them
>
> > Does debian have good support for DNN stuff?
>
> Yes, my current setup is:
> debian unstable,
> nvidia proprietary driver from nvidia-driver deb package,
> cuda from nvidia-cuda-toolkit deb package holding at version 11.2.2-3,
> cudnn8 from
> https://developer.download.nvidia.com/compute/cuda/repos/ubuntu1804/x86_64/libcudnn8_8.1.1.33-1+cuda11.2_amd64.deb
> extracted to /usr/local/lib,
> tensorflow 2.6 from pip
>
> Basically everything is from debian archive except cudnn and tf
>
> And pytorch is available in debian https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/pytorch
>
>

Re: why Debian?

2021-12-02 Thread Karthik

On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 1:37 AM Piper H  wrote:
>
> @Karthik glad to see the info you providesd.

You're welcome,feel free to ask questions,Im happy to help

> Especially for cudnn running on ubuntu 18.04 and above.
It's just 18.04 and not above as other versions only have partial support
LTS versions like 16.04,20.04 seem to have support but I haven't tested them

> Does debian have good support for DNN stuff?

Yes, my current setup is:
debian unstable,
nvidia proprietary driver from nvidia-driver deb package,
cuda from nvidia-cuda-toolkit deb package holding at version 11.2.2-3,
cudnn8 from 
https://developer.download.nvidia.com/compute/cuda/repos/ubuntu1804/x86_64/libcudnn8_8.1.1.33-1+cuda11.2_amd64.deb
extracted to /usr/local/lib,
tensorflow 2.6 from pip

Basically everything is from debian archive except cudnn and tf

And pytorch is available in debian https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/pytorch

Re: why Debian?

@Karthik glad to see the info you providesd. Especially for cudnn running
on ubuntu 18.04 and above. Does debian have good support for DNN stuff?
Thanks.

Piper

On Thursday, December 2, 2021, Karthik  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021, 5:27 PM Piper H  wrote:
>
>> For debian and ubuntu, which one should I choose as my personal
>> development  system?
>> Thanks.
>>
>
> Depends on your use case and preference
>
> If you're experienced enough or willing to learn then either of them are
> equally good and you shouldn't have any problem
>
> If you're new to Debian and are not willing to learn tiny things here and
> there then you should consider one over the other.
>
> Most of the software is available for both from official repositories. But
> for some software which isn't available yet in the repositories you have to
> build from source or consider using other sources(either third-party
> repositories or deb,tar packages) which may be of a problem as some times
> you wouldn't find support for both of them. Some support Ubuntu only and
> some support Debian and some support both(although only certain versions).
>
> And with Debian you should setup some things after first install like
> enabling non-free section for firmwares and nvidia drivers, fonts,bash
> completion etc.
>
> Some even expect you to use certain version of one of them like Nvidia
> cudnn which fully supported only on Ubuntu 18.04 although you can get
> around these with some manual installation work
>
> Debian is most stable though.
>
>
>
>
>

Re: why Debian?

I am a data engineer. Most time works around Hadoop, Spark, Streaming, MQ,
R and Python stuff. I have my personal Mac, but want to learn more on Linux
dev and ops. Thanks.

Piper

On Friday, December 3, 2021, Andrew M.A. Cater  wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 02, 2021 at 07:56:31PM +0800, Piper H wrote:
> > For debian and ubuntu, which one should I choose as my personal
> > development  system?
> > Thanks.
> >
>
> What are you developing _in_ ? Debian stable is pretty much unconditionally
> stable and includes huge amounts of software. On the other hand, some
> teams develop only on Ubuntu - it's not a binary "either/or" and the
> skills
> you learn on Debian are transferrable to Ubuntu.
>
> More details needed :)
>
> All the very best, as ever,
>
> Andy Cater
>
>
>
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:02 PM Anssi Saari  wrote:
> >
> > > Thanos Katsiolis  writes:
> > >
> > > > The reasons I chose them is that Debian is considered a stable and
> > > reliable OS (the policy of the OS is not to
> > > > include as many and as much quickly as possible new features), and
> that
> > > it has a large and dependable community.
> > >
> > > Isn't that enough? I guess I'd say the policy of Debian is that it
> > > works. Personally, I had used Linux off and on in the 1990s but there
> > > were issues. I was otherwise a Unix user in school and work, mostly
> > > Sun's Solaris but also Digital and HP and some others I don't remember
> > > any more.
> > >
> > > A friend and colleague recommended Debian around late '90s and I
> > > installed Debian, 2.0 Hamm I think. It just worked, as in I ran the
> same
> > > installation on my ever morphing desktop computer for almost a decade
> > > until I made the switch to 64-bit. I guess that "new" 64-bit
> > > installation is now over a decade old then. Updates work and it does't
> > > barf when I change hardware.
> > >
> > > For sure I have other computers these days and my desktop alone has
> > > Windows 10 and Arch Linux in addition to Debian. But mostly I use
> > > the desktop and the Debian on it.
> > >
> > >
>
>

Re: why Debian?

2021-12-02 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

On Thu, Dec 02, 2021 at 07:56:31PM +0800, Piper H wrote:
> For debian and ubuntu, which one should I choose as my personal
> development  system?
> Thanks.
> 

What are you developing _in_ ? Debian stable is pretty much unconditionally
stable and includes huge amounts of software. On the other hand, some
teams develop only on Ubuntu - it's not a binary "either/or" and the skills 
you learn on Debian are transferrable to Ubuntu.

More details needed :)

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater 



> 
> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:02 PM Anssi Saari  wrote:
> 
> > Thanos Katsiolis  writes:
> >
> > > The reasons I chose them is that Debian is considered a stable and
> > reliable OS (the policy of the OS is not to
> > > include as many and as much quickly as possible new features), and that
> > it has a large and dependable community.
> >
> > Isn't that enough? I guess I'd say the policy of Debian is that it
> > works. Personally, I had used Linux off and on in the 1990s but there
> > were issues. I was otherwise a Unix user in school and work, mostly
> > Sun's Solaris but also Digital and HP and some others I don't remember
> > any more.
> >
> > A friend and colleague recommended Debian around late '90s and I
> > installed Debian, 2.0 Hamm I think. It just worked, as in I ran the same
> > installation on my ever morphing desktop computer for almost a decade
> > until I made the switch to 64-bit. I guess that "new" 64-bit
> > installation is now over a decade old then. Updates work and it does't
> > barf when I change hardware.
> >
> > For sure I have other computers these days and my desktop alone has
> > Windows 10 and Arch Linux in addition to Debian. But mostly I use
> > the desktop and the Debian on it.
> >
> >

Re: why Debian?

2021-12-02 Thread Karthik

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021, 5:27 PM Piper H  wrote:

> For debian and ubuntu, which one should I choose as my personal
> development  system?
> Thanks.
>

Depends on your use case and preference

If you're experienced enough or willing to learn then either of them are
equally good and you shouldn't have any problem

If you're new to Debian and are not willing to learn tiny things here and
there then you should consider one over the other.

Most of the software is available for both from official repositories. But
for some software which isn't available yet in the repositories you have to
build from source or consider using other sources(either third-party
repositories or deb,tar packages) which may be of a problem as some times
you wouldn't find support for both of them. Some support Ubuntu only and
some support Debian and some support both(although only certain versions).

And with Debian you should setup some things after first install like
enabling non-free section for firmwares and nvidia drivers, fonts,bash
completion etc.

Some even expect you to use certain version of one of them like Nvidia
cudnn which fully supported only on Ubuntu 18.04 although you can get
around these with some manual installation work

Debian is most stable though.

Re: why Debian?

2021-12-02 Thread Peter Ehlert

On 12/2/21 3:56 AM, Piper H wrote:
For debian and ubuntu, which one should I choose as my personal 
development  system?

Thanks.

pleas do some more research. it is Personal choice:

for a Stable and Secure, with no problems, everyday computer use, use Debian

for experimental plunking around you can use Ubuntu or something else.

===

Personally, I have several computers. on Most of them I use Debian
... especially on my Wife's computer, she has no tolerance for breakage.

I do like to explore options and what the others are doing, so on a 
couple I play.

those are sacrificial, if it breaks I just reinstall...

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:02 PM Anssi Saari > wrote:

Thanos Katsiolis mailto:kls.tha...@gmail.com>> writes:

> The reasons I chose them is that Debian is considered a stable
and reliable OS (the policy of the OS is not to
> include as many and as much quickly as possible new features),
and that it has a large and dependable community.

Isn't that enough? I guess I'd say the policy of Debian is that it
works. Personally, I had used Linux off and on in the 1990s but there
were issues. I was otherwise a Unix user in school and work, mostly
Sun's Solaris but also Digital and HP and some others I don't remember
any more.

A friend and colleague recommended Debian around late '90s and I
installed Debian, 2.0 Hamm I think. It just worked, as in I ran
the same
installation on my ever morphing desktop computer for almost a decade
until I made the switch to 64-bit. I guess that "new" 64-bit
installation is now over a decade old then. Updates work and it does't
barf when I change hardware.

For sure I have other computers these days and my desktop alone has
Windows 10 and Arch Linux in addition to Debian. But mostly I use
the desktop and the Debian on it.

Re: why Debian?

2021-12-02 Thread Christian Britz

Piper H wrote:
> For debian and ubuntu, which one should I choose as my personal
> development  system?

The question is almost blasphemic; The original (Debian) of course! ;-)

Re: why Debian?

2017-08-11 Thread Byung-Hee HWANG (황병희, 黃炳熙)

For debian and ubuntu, which one should I choose as my personal
development  system?
Thanks.


On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:02 PM Anssi Saari  wrote:

> Thanos Katsiolis  writes:
>
> > The reasons I chose them is that Debian is considered a stable and
> reliable OS (the policy of the OS is not to
> > include as many and as much quickly as possible new features), and that
> it has a large and dependable community.
>
> Isn't that enough? I guess I'd say the policy of Debian is that it
> works. Personally, I had used Linux off and on in the 1990s but there
> were issues. I was otherwise a Unix user in school and work, mostly
> Sun's Solaris but also Digital and HP and some others I don't remember
> any more.
>
> A friend and colleague recommended Debian around late '90s and I
> installed Debian, 2.0 Hamm I think. It just worked, as in I ran the same
> installation on my ever morphing desktop computer for almost a decade
> until I made the switch to 64-bit. I guess that "new" 64-bit
> installation is now over a decade old then. Updates work and it does't
> barf when I change hardware.
>
> For sure I have other computers these days and my desktop alone has
> Windows 10 and Arch Linux in addition to Debian. But mostly I use
> the desktop and the Debian on it.
>
>

Re: why Debian?

2021-12-02 Thread Anssi Saari

Thanos Katsiolis  writes:

> The reasons I chose them is that Debian is considered a stable and reliable 
> OS (the policy of the OS is not to
> include as many and as much quickly as possible new features), and that it 
> has a large and dependable community.

Isn't that enough? I guess I'd say the policy of Debian is that it
works. Personally, I had used Linux off and on in the 1990s but there
were issues. I was otherwise a Unix user in school and work, mostly
Sun's Solaris but also Digital and HP and some others I don't remember
any more.

A friend and colleague recommended Debian around late '90s and I
installed Debian, 2.0 Hamm I think. It just worked, as in I ran the same
installation on my ever morphing desktop computer for almost a decade
until I made the switch to 64-bit. I guess that "new" 64-bit
installation is now over a decade old then. Updates work and it does't
barf when I change hardware.

For sure I have other computers these days and my desktop alone has
Windows 10 and Arch Linux in addition to Debian. But mostly I use
the desktop and the Debian on it.

Re: why Debian?

2021-11-14 Thread 황병희

Thanos Katsiolis  writes:

> Hello,
>
> I am new to the Debian distribution and I would like to hear opinions
> ...

Well, i like GNU Emacs than Debian. And i also new to Debian. Before i
used Ubuntu 18.04 LTS. Debian 11 Bullseye is not bad with GNU Emacs ^^^

Sincerely, Gnus fan Byung-Hee

Re: why Debian?

2021-11-14 Thread David Christensen


On 11/14/21 4:56 AM, Thanos Katsiolis wrote:

Hello,

I am new to the Debian distribution and I would like to hear opinions from
experienced users on why someone should choose them as OS.
The reasons I chose them is that Debian is considered a stable and reliable
OS (the policy of the OS is not to include as many and as much quickly as
possible new features), and that it has a large and dependable community.



It would help if you described your computing environment, what you plan 
to do with Debian, and what criteria are important to you.



I have a SOHO network with various computers and devices running 
Windows, macOS, Debian, FreeBSD, Android, iOS, Raku, and other embedded 
OS's.  I chose Debian with Xfce for desktops and laptops because it 
mostly works OOTB on most x86-64 machines.  I chose FreeBSD for servers 
because the BSD license and CDDL are compatible, so FreeBSD fully 
supports OpenZFS OOTB.



Over  the years, Debian Stable, Old Stable, and Old Old Stable have been 
reasonably stable ("code does not change") and reliable ("computer does 
not malfunction").  I typically run Old Stable or Old Old Stable -- 
currently, Debian 10 and 9.



Unfortunately, over the past year or so, Debian with Xfce and my typical 
set of desktop applications (Firefox, Thunderbird, Thunar, and Terminal) 
have become unreliable.  I experience intermittent, random mouse and/or 
keyboard events that jump the mouse pointer, select regions of the 
screen, resize, move, and close windows, activate pop-up dialogs, etc.. 
 The problem is more frequent on Debian 10 than on Debian 9.  The 
malfunctions seem to come in storms, and I have yet to find a way to 
trigger them.  I need to try Debian 11.



The last time I ran FreeBSD with Xfce as a daily driver (4+ years ago), 
it took a non-trivial amount of work to set up and the result was 
lacking features and panel items that were included with Debian.  So, I 
went back to Debian.



As for community, I participate in the debian-user mailing list and the 
freebsd-questions mailing list.  The FreeBSD list seems to have more 
people with computer science education.  The Debian list tends to have 
more digressions.  The users on both are reasonably helpful.



David

Re: why Debian?

2021-11-14 Thread Nate Bargmann

For me Debian strikes a nice balance between convenience and staying out
of my way and preserving my changes when I want to customize things.  As
mentioned, apt, though I like using aptitude through its TUI mostly,
handles dependencies not just for installing but for removing packages
as well.  When the debconf system detects that a configuration file
(most often found under /etc) has been modified, it will prompt for a
resolution (I have dealt with distributions that weren't so careful).

The Debian developers often set sensible defaults that mesh well with
the system and often modify a package to make it easier to administer.
The security team does a good job of responding to issues and updating
needed packages.  Over the years it has become obvious to me that the
developers care deeply about the distribution and this is reflected in
the quality of the past several releases (all have been good since I
first installed Debian 2.1 (Slink) back in late summer 1999, but past
several have shown the project has the process down pat).

The project is committed to Free Software yet has not forgotten that
sometimes pragmatism dictates that users need to use non-free packages
to accomplish their tasks.  Fortunately, most of the non-free packages
that are needed these days are kernel modules.

HTH,

- Nate

-- 
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819



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Re: why Debian?

2021-11-14 Thread Karen Lewellen


Actually, this question lets me raise a deeper one.
Why Linux...at all?
I am often in discussions where the question comes up, mostly because on 
the one hand its everywhere, but on the other it seems its broader user 
base is limited.  Intellectuals, developers, programmers, certainly, but 
general public?  Not that I have discovered  numbers to support.
add that, again speaking personally, it seems to be a great great deal of 
work, and I am honestly curious what motivates you to choose Linux. 
Especially if you use it exclusively?

Kare

Re: why Debian?

2021-11-14 Thread Joe

On Sun, 14 Nov 2021 14:56:39 +0200
Thanos Katsiolis  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I am new to the Debian distribution and I would like to hear opinions
> from experienced users on why someone should choose them as OS.
> The reasons I chose them is that Debian is considered a stable and
> reliable OS 

That's a major factor...

> (the policy of the OS is not to include as many and as
> much quickly as possible new features),

In addition to the official Debian release ('Stable'), there are two
rolling releases that contain fairly up-to-date software, but by
definition are less reliable than Stable. The user takes on some
responsibility for fixing breakages.
https://www.debian.org/releases/

> and that it has a large and
> dependable community.

Indeed, and also many Debian derivatives are sources of useful help and
information (e.g. Ubuntu, Kali, Knoppix). They are of course not
identical to the base Debian, but generally have a great deal in common
with it, and much of the documentation is valid. Knoppix is
particularly valuable for identifying hardware problems with
installation of a base Debian distribution.

-- 
Joe

Re: why Debian?

2021-11-14 Thread Darac Marjal

On 14/11/2021 12:56, Thanos Katsiolis wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am new to the Debian distribution and I would like to hear opinions
> from experienced users on why someone should choose them as OS.
> The reasons I chose them is that Debian is considered a stable and
> reliable OS (the policy of the OS is not to include as many and as
> much quickly as possible new features), and that it has a large and
> dependable community.

Personally,  I chose Debian because of it's amazing package installer
"apt". Like many people, I started with Windows (well, my first computer
was earlier than that, but irrelevant to this discussion). Software
management was (and - although "winget" is making it better - still kind
of is) a bit of a nightmare. You'd either have to got to the developer's
website and download an installer or, if you were lucky, there are sites
like TUCOWS and Sourceforge where you could download several installers.
But windows has always tended to favour the idea of an installer, rather
than a package to be installed. Sure, MSI files exist, but they're still
kind of second rate compared to an EXE installer.

So, when I was venturing into Linux, I started off with Mandrake Linux
(which I got from a CD on a magazine). Mandrake Linux introduced me to
the concept of a Software Repository - a single server hosting just
about any programs you could want. Want a spreadsheet application?
Install StarOffice. Want games? There's plenty of those, too. All
available for free. However, Mandrake is a RedHat-based distribution so,
although there was /so much/ software available through the repository,
these were the days before "yum". So to install a package, you had to
download the RPM for what you wanted, then try to install it, then
download all the dependencies that it needed and try to install those,
then download all the dependencies THEY required and so on.

A friend of mine, however, used Debian Linux and "apt" was a revelation.
With apt (I think we used "dselect" in those days, but "apt-get" worked
just as well if you knew what you wanted to install), it was just a
single command. "apt-get install soffice" was enough to install
StarOffice and all the libraries it required. This was a minor miracle
to me, and I've never really looked back.

Of course, nowadays, you can do the same thing with "yum" and "dnf" on
RedHat based distros, and even Windows is getting to the point where
plenty of software is available through "winget install xxx", but I'm
happy to stick with Debian.

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Re: why Debian?

2021-11-14 Thread phoebus phoebus

Hello,

 The reasons I chose them is that Debian is considered a stable and 
 reliable OS (the policy of the OS is not to include as many and as much 
 quickly as possible new features), and that it has a large and dependable 
 community. 
Debian stable release(currently 11 bullseye) is the most stable distro as
It's tested by not only it's maintainers but
Also by its downstream maintainers for
Offshoot distros(which include both commercial and community) and their 
users as well

It has some strict policies for being stable including seperation of free 
and non-free software, source only uploads,
Reproducible builds of packages.

Debian maintainers are highly Experienced. Some of the package maintainers 
are also upstream authors

Most software is tested on Debian/Debian based distros (manual or CI). 
Which makes it even more robust in practice. Eg. Android. Indeed Debian 
Linux kernel is the most used kernel of all distros (including kernel.org 
source builds).

Debian community is very large in that you get 24hrs support as its 
community is wide spread across the world and so are security patches


Sure you know it but just mention this link:
https://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian
https://wiki.debian.org/WhyDebian

Regards,
Thierry

Re: why Debian?

2021-11-14 Thread Karthik

On Sun, Nov 14, 2021, 6:27 PM Thanos Katsiolis  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am new to the Debian distribution and I would like to hear opinions from
> experienced users on why someone should choose them as OS.
> The reasons I chose them is that Debian is considered a stable and
> reliable OS (the policy of the OS is not to include as many and as
> much quickly as possible new features), and that it has a large and
> dependable community.
>

Debian stable release(currently 11 bullseye) is the most stable distro as
It's tested by not only it's maintainers but
Also by its downstream maintainers for
Offshoot distros(which include both commercial and community) and their
users as well

It has some strict policies for being stable including seperation of free
and non-free software, source only uploads,
Reproducible builds of packages.

Debian maintainers are highly Experienced. Some of the package maintainers
are also upstream authors

Most software is tested on Debian/Debian based distros (manual or CI).
Which makes it even more robust in practice. Eg. Android. Indeed Debian
Linux kernel is the most used kernel of all distros (including kernel.org
source builds).

Debian community is very large in that you get 24hrs support as its
community is wide spread across the world and so are security patches

>

Re: Why debian put ~/bin beginning of $PATH

2017-08-14 Thread Vincent Lefevre

On 2017-08-09 03:11:48 +0800, spp mg wrote:
> In the ~/.profile has below default setting:
> 
> --
> # set PATH so it includes user's private bin if it exists
> if [ -d "$HOME/bin" ] ; then
> PATH="$HOME/bin:$PATH"
> fi
> --
> 
> Why put ~/bin beginning ? Is that dangerous ?

No, it's the opposite that is potentially dangerous. For instance,
you install some executable foo in your ~/bin, so that you can run
just "foo". Then, imagine that after some system upgrade or package
installation, a new executable "foo" gets installed somewhere in
the system path. So, when you run "foo", it will no longer be your
executable, but the system one, and if this executable is destructive,
you may lose data...

It is "." that must never be put in front of the path. Putting it
at the end might be OK, but this is not even recommended, due to
the above issue and also because you may run a wrong executable by
mistake.

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

Re: Why debian put ~/bin beginning of $PATH

> Why put ~/bin beginning ?

2 weeks ago, i installed new Ruby. At that time it was proper to me. By
the Debian rule, users can test new program. Yes i think in positive. 

Sincerely,

-- 
^고맙습니다 _布德天下_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Why debian put ~/bin beginning of $PATH

2017-08-09 Thread David Wright

On Wed 09 Aug 2017 at 18:04:56 (+0200), Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:

> Having ~/bin before /bin and /usr/bin (and /usr/local/bin) is of no
> harm at all if your account is safe enough.
> 
> If and only if someone can log on with your account, she can put a
> malicious copy/wrapper of a system command (ls to name one) in your
> bin and you could trigger it thinking to use the system version.
> 
> What *is* dangerous is having . before system directories, especially
> on multi-user machines.
> 
> In this scenario, user A, who has . in the path before /bin, goes in a
> directory of user B and does an 'ls'.
> 
> That directory contains an executable called ls that is smart enough
> to hide itself. But bastard enough to do something nasty, a Trojan
> horse. And user A just brought it within the walls...

While putting . _anywhere_ in PATH would be stupid, there is a more
insidious trap for the unaware, namely mistaking : for a delimiter
instead of a separator.

An extra colon (anywhere) will yield a null entry.

A null entry in PATH is treated as the current directory.

Examples:   foo:bar:   foo::bar   :foo:bar   and obviously   :foo:bar:

Cheers,
David.

Re: Why debian put ~/bin beginning of $PATH

2017-08-09 Thread Gian Uberto Lauri

> "慕冬" == 慕 冬亮  writes:

慕冬> User's command is usually stored in "/usr/local/bin". It should
慕冬> be placed before "/bin" in the $PATH.

/usr/local is a directory hierarchy for binaries typical of the local
installation and being, by default, owned by root, it is not a
directory for user commands.

Having ~/bin before /bin and /usr/bin (and /usr/local/bin) is of no
harm at all if your account is safe enough.

If and only if someone can log on with your account, she can put a
malicious copy/wrapper of a system command (ls to name one) in your
bin and you could trigger it thinking to use the system version.

What *is* dangerous is having . before system directories, especially
on multi-user machines.

In this scenario, user A, who has . in the path before /bin, goes in a
directory of user B and does an 'ls'.

That directory contains an executable called ls that is smart enough
to hide itself. But bastard enough to do something nasty, a Trojan
horse. And user A just brought it within the walls...

-- 
 /\   ___Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_   African word
  //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can
\/ coltivatore diretto di software   not install
 già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO

Re: Why debian put ~/bin beginning of $PATH

2017-08-09 Thread 慕冬亮



On 08/08/2017 04:56 PM, spp mg wrote:
> 2017-08-09 4:04 GMT+08:00 Michael Lange :
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 03:11:48 +0800
>> spp mg  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all
>>>
>>> In the ~/.profile has below default setting:
>>>
>>> --
>>> # set PATH so it includes user's private bin if it exists
>>> if [ -d "$HOME/bin" ] ; then
>>>  PATH="$HOME/bin:$PATH"
>>> fi
>>> --
>>>
>>> Why put ~/bin beginning ? Is that dangerous ?
>> like other people already pointed out there shouldn't be anything
>> dangerous about this.
>> One possible use case is for example that you could put there a
>> minimal script that temporarily overrides some environment variable, like
>> one I have here which reads:
>>
>> #!/bin/bash
>> GTK_IM_MODULE=gtk /usr/bin/poedit $@
>> exit $?
>>
>> This way I can conveniently call "poedit " with the desired
>> setting of GTK_IM_MODULE without either having to type the whole thing
>> each time or else having to permanently change GTK_IM_MODULE's setting
>> (the default value of which I modified for other reasons).
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> .-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.
>>
>> Fascinating, a totally parochial attitude.
>>  -- Spock, "Metamorphosis", stardate 3219.8
>>
> Thinks to reply (very fast :D)
>
> I think it's may dangerous because generally system command should be
> highter older then user's command.
User's command is usually stored in "/usr/local/bin". It should be 
placed before "/bin" in the $PATH.

And it does in my Debian Stretch.

echo $PATH
/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/local/games:/usr/games

> For example , some guy put a "rm" but named "ls" to ~/bin . This "ls"
> can be virus or ransomware , user may not know it's not which he
> want("ls").
If someone replace "ls" with "rm", you cannot prevent this by trying to 
put "/bin" at the end of $PATH.

$PATH is used to search executable file. At the head of $PATH is with 
high priority.

If there are two "ls" in different places(one /bin, one /usr/bin) of 
$PATH. It causes different effects(which ls will be executed) whether or 
not you put "/bin" at the end of $PATH
> So I think put ~/bin to tail of $PATH has better security for normal user.
>
> For me, I will avoid use same name with exist command, and for user
> who want use same name , I believe he know or will learn how to modify
> $PATH.
>
>
> I mean , put ~/bin in tail of $PATH will batter for default setting,
> so does developer has another reason to put to beginning ?
>

-- 

---
My best regards to you.

  No System Is Safe!
  Dongliang Mu

Re: Why debian put ~/bin beginning of $PATH

2017-08-09 Thread Greg Wooledge

On Tue, Aug 08, 2017 at 10:04:32PM +0200, Michael Lange wrote:
> #!/bin/bash
> GTK_IM_MODULE=gtk /usr/bin/poedit $@
> exit $?

Should be:

#!/bin/bash
GTK_IM_MODULE=gtk exec /usr/bin/poedit "$@"

You could also use #!/bin/sh, since this doesn't use any bash extensions.

Re: Why debian put ~/bin beginning of $PATH

2017-08-08 Thread Teemu Likonen

Teemu Likonen [2017-08-09 07:42:43+03] wrote:

> rm --force "$HOME/bin"

Fix:

rm --force --recursive "$HOME/bin"

-- 
/// Teemu Likonen   - .-..    //
// PGP: 4E10 55DC 84E9 DFF6 13D7 8557 719D 69D3 2453 9450 ///


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Why debian put ~/bin beginning of $PATH

2017-08-08 Thread Teemu Likonen

spp mg [2017-08-09 04:56:58+08] wrote:

> For example , some guy put a "rm" but named "ls" to ~/bin . This "ls"
> can be virus or ransomware , user may not know it's not which he
> want("ls").

The "some guy" who does that will also modify the ~/.profile file or
similar startup scripts to _ensure_ that their program is in the
beginning of the PATH, no matter what the PATH variable was originally.

If $USER has a malicious program running with their $UID the program can
do everything the $USER can do. It's a game over situation and default
settings in ~/.profile or similar do not matter.

But sometimes it may be useful to write a root-owner startup script (one
example: /etc/X11/Xsession.d/50custom-stuff) which could do something
like

rm --force "$HOME/bin"
cp --recursive --force /etc/skel/. "$HOME"

so that some default files are restored at every login.

-- 
/// Teemu Likonen   - .-..    //
// PGP: 4E10 55DC 84E9 DFF6 13D7 8557 719D 69D3 2453 9450 ///

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Re: Why debian put ~/bin beginning of $PATH

2017-08-08 Thread Michael Lange

Hi,

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 04:56:58 +0800
spp mg  wrote:

(...)
> For example , some guy put a "rm" but named "ls" to ~/bin . This "ls"
> can be virus or ransomware , user may not know it's not which he
> want("ls").

a user without administrator privilege can generally put "malware"
anywhere in *his own* home directory and it could possibly cause the same
damage from there (if the system is configured properly hopefully not
that much), so this does not matter, I think.

I think you forget that your "some guy" must be either the user him- or
herself or the system administrator (root)! If your users or
sysadmins desperately want to shoot themselves in the foot, don't worry,
they will find some way, you will not be able to stop them. But why would
normal people do such a thing? And any malware programmer who secretly
"injects" something bad into your system will probably not rely on ~/bin
being at the start of PATH, these people have other ways.

> 
> So I think put ~/bin to tail of $PATH has better security for normal
> user.

Why? If the user puts a program called "evilmalware" there, it simply
does not matter where in PATH it is. And when the user does something
sane instead, as in my "poedit" example, it will no longer work :(

> 
> For me, I will avoid use same name with exist command, and for user
> who want use same name , I believe he know or will learn how to modify
> $PATH.
> 
> 
> I mean , put ~/bin in tail of $PATH will batter for default setting,
> so does developer has another reason to put to beginning ?

I think the reason is exactly as I and others have said, the benefit to
security you get by omitting ~/bin from the beginning of PATH is more
"feeling" than "reality", the real dangers are waiting somewhere else :)
And the benefit of this default setting is that a user without privilege
may override a system default command. 

Best regards

Michael

.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

Where there's no emotion, there's no motive for violence.
-- Spock, "Dagger of the Mind", stardate 2715.1

Re: Why debian put ~/bin beginning of $PATH

2017-08-08 Thread spp mg

2017-08-09 4:04 GMT+08:00 Michael Lange :
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 03:11:48 +0800
> spp mg  wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> In the ~/.profile has below default setting:
>>
>> --
>> # set PATH so it includes user's private bin if it exists
>> if [ -d "$HOME/bin" ] ; then
>> PATH="$HOME/bin:$PATH"
>> fi
>> --
>>
>> Why put ~/bin beginning ? Is that dangerous ?
>
> like other people already pointed out there shouldn't be anything
> dangerous about this.
> One possible use case is for example that you could put there a
> minimal script that temporarily overrides some environment variable, like
> one I have here which reads:
>
> #!/bin/bash
> GTK_IM_MODULE=gtk /usr/bin/poedit $@
> exit $?
>
> This way I can conveniently call "poedit " with the desired
> setting of GTK_IM_MODULE without either having to type the whole thing
> each time or else having to permanently change GTK_IM_MODULE's setting
> (the default value of which I modified for other reasons).
>
> Best regards
>
> Michael
>
> .-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.
>
> Fascinating, a totally parochial attitude.
> -- Spock, "Metamorphosis", stardate 3219.8
>

Thinks to reply (very fast :D)

I think it's may dangerous because generally system command should be
highter older then user's command.

For example , some guy put a "rm" but named "ls" to ~/bin . This "ls"
can be virus or ransomware , user may not know it's not which he
want("ls").

So I think put ~/bin to tail of $PATH has better security for normal user.

For me, I will avoid use same name with exist command, and for user
who want use same name , I believe he know or will learn how to modify
$PATH.

I mean , put ~/bin in tail of $PATH will batter for default setting,
so does developer has another reason to put to beginning ?

Re: Why debian put ~/bin beginning of $PATH

2017-08-08 Thread Michael Lange

Hi,

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 03:11:48 +0800
spp mg  wrote:

> Hi all
> 
> In the ~/.profile has below default setting:
> 
> --
> # set PATH so it includes user's private bin if it exists
> if [ -d "$HOME/bin" ] ; then
> PATH="$HOME/bin:$PATH"
> fi
> --
> 
> Why put ~/bin beginning ? Is that dangerous ?

like other people already pointed out there shouldn't be anything
dangerous about this.
One possible use case is for example that you could put there a
minimal script that temporarily overrides some environment variable, like
one I have here which reads:

#!/bin/bash
GTK_IM_MODULE=gtk /usr/bin/poedit $@
exit $?

This way I can conveniently call "poedit " with the desired
setting of GTK_IM_MODULE without either having to type the whole thing
each time or else having to permanently change GTK_IM_MODULE's setting
(the default value of which I modified for other reasons).

Best regards

Michael

.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

Fascinating, a totally parochial attitude.
-- Spock, "Metamorphosis", stardate 3219.8

Re: Why debian put ~/bin beginning of $PATH

2017-08-08 Thread Nicolas George

Le duodi 22 thermidor, an CCXXV, spp mg a écrit :
> Why put ~/bin beginning ? Is that dangerous ?

No.

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: Why debian put ~/bin beginning of $PATH

2017-08-08 Thread John Elliot V

On 09/08/17 05:11, spp mg wrote:
> In the ~/.profile has below default setting:
> 
> --
> # set PATH so it includes user's private bin if it exists
> if [ -d "$HOME/bin" ] ; then
> PATH="$HOME/bin:$PATH"
> fi
> --
> 
> Why put ~/bin beginning ?

So that your own stuff has precedence...

> Is that dangerous ?

Not really. Only you or a system administrator would have write access
to ~/bin. What makes you think it might be dangerous?

-- 
E: j...@jj5.net
P: +61 4 3505 7839
W: https://www.jj5.net/
<>

Re: Why Debian 8.1 has no torrents beyond first 3 DVD ISO images

2015-06-15 Thread Curt

On 2015-06-15, Arno Schuring aelschur...@hotmail.com wrote:

 It probably would but it looks like the sources are on separate DVDs
 (in the [..]/current/source directory) so they wouldn't show up when
 grepping the amd64/list-dvd/ files. Either way you can verify the
 output by removing the postprocessing by the cut|sort|uniq pipes.

Yes the sources are on separate DVDs (1-10), which makes sense. Also,
FWIW, the debs are sorted by popularity (most popular on DVD 1, least
popular on DVD 13, which actually should be DVD 14 like they do for
high-rises).


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Re: Why Debian 8.1 has no torrents beyond first 3 DVD ISO images

2015-06-15 Thread Steve McIntyre

cu...@free.fr wrote:
On 2015-06-15, Arno Schuring aelschur...@hotmail.com wrote:

 It probably would but it looks like the sources are on separate DVDs
 (in the [..]/current/source directory) so they wouldn't show up when
 grepping the amd64/list-dvd/ files. Either way you can verify the
 output by removing the postprocessing by the cut|sort|uniq pipes.

Yes the sources are on separate DVDs (1-10), which makes sense. Also,
FWIW, the debs are sorted by popularity (most popular on DVD 1, least
popular on DVD 13, which actually should be DVD 14 like they do for
high-rises).

*grin* We have no plans to cater for the superstitious in our CD and
DVD numbering schemese...

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out
 whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast.
 Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html


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RE: Why Debian 8.1 has no torrents beyond first 3 DVD ISO images

2015-06-15 Thread Arno Schuring

Hi,

 From: cu...@free.fr
 Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 12:39:44 +

 On 2015-06-14, Arno Schuring  wrote:

 $ wget 
 http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/list-dvd/debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-{1..13}.list.gz
 [..]
 $ zgrep -E '^(stumpwm|cl-ppcre|sbcl|gcl|mpd|gmpc|feh|libtheora0)_' * | cut 
 -d: -f1|sort|uniq

 Wouldn't your regexp also match the sources packages?

It probably would, but it looks like the sources are on separate DVDs
(in the [..]/current/source directory), so they wouldn't show up when
grepping the amd64/list-dvd/ files. Either way, you can verify the
output by removing the postprocessing by the cut|sort|uniq pipes.

Regards,
Arno

Re: Why Debian 8.1 has no torrents beyond first 3 DVD ISO images

2015-06-15 Thread Curt

On 2015-06-14, Arno Schuring aelschur...@hotmail.com wrote:

 You don't need the source packages nor the ones for architectures other
 than your own.

 Without having researched the question, is there a simple way
 of knowing which dvds contain what (a package list or something)?

 Yes, the list-cd/ and list-dvd/ subdirectories on the cdimage server:

 $ wget 
 http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/list-dvd/debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-{1..13}.list.gz
 [..]
 $ zgrep -E '^(stumpwm|cl-ppcre|sbcl|gcl|mpd|gmpc|feh|libtheora0)_' * | cut 
 -d: -f1|sort|uniq

Wouldn't your regexp also match the sources packages?

 debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-1.list.gz
 debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-2.list.gz
 debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-3.list.gz
 debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-5.list.gz
 debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-6.list.gz





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Re: Why Debian 8.1 has no torrents beyond first 3 DVD ISO images

2015-06-14 Thread John Hasler

arnuld uttre writes:
 Well, I need many packages which normal users don't use, like stumpwm,
 ppcre, sbcl, clisp, gcc, mpd, gmpc, feh, theora etc. I have used
 Debian Sarge (and in those days I only had CDs) and I noticed some
 package I wanted were only in last few CDs

You don't need the source packages nor the ones for architectures other
than your own.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: Why Debian 8.1 has no torrents beyond first 3 DVD ISO images

2015-06-14 Thread arnuld uttre

 On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 10:41 PM, Andrew M.A. Cater 
 amaca...@galactic.demon.co.uk wrote:

 You probably don't need all DVD images - the first three should be enough to 
 build you a fairly complete
 Debian system.

 The other DVDs include all the other packages - 40,000 or so in total - that 
 make up Debian but you may not
 need them all.

Well, I need many packages which normal users don't use, like stumpwm,
ppcre, sbcl, clisp, gcc, mpd, gmpc, feh, theora etc. I have used
Debian Sarge  (and in those days I only had CDs) and I noticed some
package I wanted were only in last few CDs




 If you have reasonably fast network access available to you, you may be able 
 to install using only the netinst CD
 and all other packages will then be downloaded from the 'Net.

I don't have net.





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http://lispmachine.wordpress.com/2010/12/08/extract-of-programming/


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Re: Why Debian 8.1 has no torrents beyond first 3 DVD ISO images

2015-06-14 Thread Curt

On 2015-06-14, John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
 arnuld uttre writes:
 Well, I need many packages which normal users don't use, like stumpwm,
 ppcre, sbcl, clisp, gcc, mpd, gmpc, feh, theora etc. I have used
 Debian Sarge (and in those days I only had CDs) and I noticed some
 package I wanted were only in last few CDs

 You don't need the source packages nor the ones for architectures other
 than your own.

Without having researched the question, is there a simple way
of knowing which dvds contain what (a package list or something)? 


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RE: Why Debian 8.1 has no torrents beyond first 3 DVD ISO images

2015-06-14 Thread Arno Schuring

 From: cu...@free.fr
 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 18:12:11 +
 On 2015-06-14, John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:
 arnuld uttre writes:
 Well, I need many packages which normal users don't use, like stumpwm,
 ppcre, sbcl, clisp, gcc, mpd, gmpc, feh, theora etc. I have used
 Debian Sarge (and in those days I only had CDs) and I noticed some
 package I wanted were only in last few CDs

 You don't need the source packages nor the ones for architectures other
 than your own.

 Without having researched the question, is there a simple way
 of knowing which dvds contain what (a package list or something)?

Yes, the list-cd/ and list-dvd/ subdirectories on the cdimage server:

$ wget 
http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/list-dvd/debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-{1..13}.list.gz
[..]
$ zgrep -E '^(stumpwm|cl-ppcre|sbcl|gcl|mpd|gmpc|feh|libtheora0)_' * | cut -d: 
-f1|sort|uniq
debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-1.list.gz
debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-2.list.gz
debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-3.list.gz
debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-5.list.gz
debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-6.list.gz

Regards,
Arno

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Re: Why Debian 8.1 has no torrents beyond first 3 DVD ISO images

2015-06-14 Thread Bob Proulx

arnuld uttre wrote:
 I wanted to download all Debian 8.1 DVD images at my friend's place because
 I don't have net at home. but all I see are 3 DVD ISO images available on

Have you considered using apt-offline?

  apt-cache show apt-offline
   apt-offline is an Offline APT Package Manager.

   apt-offline can fully update and upgrade an APT based distribution without
   connecting to the network, all of it transparent to APT.

   apt-offline can be used to generate a signature on a machine (with no 
network).
   This signature contains all download information required for the APT 
database
   system. This signature file can be used on another machine connected to the
   internet (which need not be a Debian box and can even be running windows) to
   download the updates.
   The downloaded data will contain all updates in a format understood by APT 
and
   this data can be used by apt-offline to update the non-networked machine.

   apt-offline can also fetch bug reports and make them available offline.

It would take some sneakernet trips back and forth with a portable
storage medium such as a USB storage device or some such but that
would be a possibility.  Can get security updates and so forth that
way.

 torrents, where as jigdo has available 13 DVD images:
 
 http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/8.1.0/amd64/bt-dvd/
 
 http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/8.1.0/amd64/jigdo-dvd/

Yes.  All of the DVDs images are available.  It is only that Debvian
is not hosting them as iso images on their download site.  It is a
problem of mirror site disk space and bandwidth.  Mirror sites do not
have infinite disk space nor infinite bandwidth.  There is a cost to
everything.  At some point there isn't enough space nor bandwidth nor
the associated actual cost of hosting them.  Mirrors would stop
hosting Debian if it grew without bounds.

Therefore compromises must be made.  The very little used images are 
not hosted.  It is very unusual for anyone to need or to use those 
images.  However they are available and you can create them for 
yourself very easily. 

If you desire any or all of the 13 DVD set for amd64 then they are 
available for very easy creation using jigdo-lite.  Here is an
example. 

  # apt-get install jigdo-file 

  $ mkdir jigdo-stuff 
  $ cd jigdo-stuff 
  $ jigdo-lite --noask 
http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/8.1.0/amd64/jigdo-dvd/debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-1.jigdo
  ...lots of output and some minutes of time... 
  OK: Checksums match, image is good!   
  real24m14.239s
  user1m23.772s
  sys 1m9.412s

  $ ls -ldog 
  -rw-rw-r-- 1 3994091520 Jun 14 12:38 debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso
  -rw-rw-r-- 1   3.8G Jun 14 12:38 debian-8.1.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso

That took me 24 minutes using a fast local mirror on GigE.  Pulling
3.8 Gig off a slower WAN would take considerably longer.

 My friend keeps the DVD image torrent (in Deluge) on his computer when he
 sleeps and it is downloaded by morning. Kind of hassle-free download on
 torrents because his connection keeps on breaking/disconnecting every few
 hours all the time.  But I can not find more than 3 DVD images on torrent.
 What can I do ?

I don't know of any other way than to run jigdo to build the DVD
image.  Therefore your friend would need to be able to run it on their
computer or you would need to to be able to leave a portable machine
such as a laptop with enough disk space.  I don't know if there is a
way to run jigdo on a Windows machine for example.  Temporarily leaving
a laptop there would allow you to have control over the download.

Note that the entirety of the disk space is pretty large.  4G times 13
DVD images is 50 plus Gig of data to download.

If I were heading to an Antartic station where access to the Internet
is a precious thing I would definitely download the entire set.  If I
were using sneakernet to get data across town I would probably try
apt-offline and see if it could be used to download just what was
needed.

Good luck!

Bob




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Re: Why Debian 8.1 has no torrents beyond first 3 DVD ISO images

2015-06-14 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 09:45:24PM +0530, arnuld uttre wrote:
 Hi All,
 
 I wanted to download all Debian 8.1 DVD images at my friend's place because
 I don't have net at home. but all I see are 3 DVD ISO images available on
 torrents, where as jigdo has available 13 DVD images:
 
 http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/8.1.0/amd64/bt-dvd/
 
 http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/8.1.0/amd64/jigdo-dvd/
 
 My friend keeps the DVD image torrent (in Deluge) on his computer when he
 sleeps and it is downloaded by morning. Kind of hassle-free download on
 torrents because his connection keeps on breaking/disconnecting every few
 hours all the time.  But I can not find more than 3 DVD images on torrent.
 What can I do ?
 
 Thanks
 Arnuld
 
 -- 
 http://uttre.wordpress.com/
 http://lispmachine.wordpress.com/2010/12/08/extract-of-programming/

You probably don't need all DVD images - the first three should be enough to 
build you a fairly complete
Debian system.

The other DVDs include all the other packages - 40,000 or so in total - that 
make up Debian but you may not
need them all.

To save space, only the first few DVDs are generated and stored now: if you 
_REALLY_ want the others to be
torrented, you will need to find someone to make the images first - using the 
.jigdo fies - and then torrent 
them.

FAQ alert:

If you have reasonably fast network access available to you, you may be able to 
install using only the netinst CD
and all other packages will then be downloaded from the 'Net.

/FAQ alert

All the very best,

AndyC


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Re: Why Debian 8.1 has no torrents beyond first 3 DVD ISO images

2015-06-14 Thread Sven Arvidsson

On Sun, 2015-06-14 at 18:12 +, Curt wrote:
 Without having researched the question, is there a simple way of  knowing 
 which dvds contain what (a package list or something)?

Not a list, but this is handy:
http://cdimage-search.debian.org/

-- 
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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-21 Thread Chris Bannister

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 04:55:50PM -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
 Mark kept threatening to shut down the email-based User list for
 some time. At least that is what the moderators kept telling us.

Do you mean listmasters here? Otherwise, the last bit doesn't make
sense. IOW, if there are moderators then the list is moderated.

 Then when several of us old timers brought up the lens shopping
 thingie they told us that it was not a technical issue.  

But it isn't. Technically, there is nothing wrong with it. Socially, now
that's another story.

 Some us
 figured/argued that it was indeed a technical issue, then the entire
 list became moderated.

Because the discussion couldn't be resolved? Remember, there are people
employed at Canonical who don't want to bite the hand that feeds them.

At least with Debian there is no company agenda pushing any of the
decisions which Debian takes.

Anyway, let's not get involved with another distros policies/agenda.
You may want to subscribe to the off topic list if you want to discuss
off topic issues.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: Why Debian

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 10:46 PM, Ralf Mardorf
ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote:
 On Tue, 2013-11-19 at 21:55 +, Tom H wrote:
 On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Alex Naysmith yeoman.pyt...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 I'm pleasantly surprised with just how similar Debian XFCE and Xubuntu are,
 which makes me wonder if there are any major differences at all.

 Differences: upstart and plymouth; the rest _might_ be quite similar.

 What should be different? Just the version and perhaps how some services
 are started. It's the same for my Arch install and my FreeBSD install,
 just the Xfce versions differ. Xfce is Xfce is Xfce.

I've never used XFCE but GNOME 2 was set up differently on Debian,
Mint, and Ubuntu so why shouldn't leave the possibility that there are
more differences between Debian and Ubuntu's XFCE setups, other than
the plymouth and upstart plumbing change?


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Re: Why Debian

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 10:46 PM, Slavko li...@slavino.sk wrote:
 Dňa Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:55:41 + Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com napísal:

 I'm pleasantly surprised with just how similar Debian XFCE and
 Xubuntu are, which makes me wonder if there are any major
 differences at all.

 Please bottom post.

 Differences: upstart and plymouth; the rest _might_ be quite similar.

 I sometime somewhere read, that Ubuntu is 93 % of Debian and only rest
 7 % packages are changed/added.

AFAIK, if a package has ubuntu in its version name, it's been
changed by the Ubuntu developers.

I've just checked on my 14.04 laptop and the percentage is about 14%.


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-20 Thread berenger . morel




Le 19.11.2013 21:26, Nemeth Gyorgy a écrit :

2013-11-19 14:40 keltezéssel, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org írta:

Do not take me wrong, I do not say that Debian is not as good or 
better
that Ubuntu (I think it is better, especially in terms of 
flexibility:
there are more than one DE maintained in the distribution, instead 
of
having a distro fork for each DE... this approach is just ugly for 
me,

but is interesting for simple users not used to have choice. Choice
costs time, and some people do not want it for that reason.). It's
simply that your argumentation lacks strength, and should never 
convince

any user which knows Debian and Ubuntu.


Actually it is not a distro fork. The pool of Ubuntu, Kubuntu, 
Xubuntu,
whateverubuntu is the same (the sources.list is the same for all). 
You
can consider the different 'distributions' as different install sets 
for
the same distribution with different default environments and 
settings.

There are metapackages for all the 'distributions' so choosing one or
another is just an apt-get install and selecting the newly installed
desktop as default.

--
--- Friczy ---
'Death is not a bug, it's a feature'


So, why people feels the need to give them different names? And, if I 
understand things at least a little, examples like KUbuntu are no longer 
supported by Canonical, so they are unofficial, so they can not be 
called the same distro.


Take any other distribution:
_ Debian
_ ArchLinux
_ Mint
_ Fedora

None of them have different names for different DEs, AFAIK.

PS: please do not CC me.


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Re: Why Debian

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:44 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
Le 19.11.2013 21:26, Nemeth Gyorgy a écrit :

Actually it is not a distro fork. The pool of Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu,
whateverubuntu is the same (the sources.list is the same for all). You
can consider the different 'distributions' as different install sets for
the same distribution with different default environments and settings.
There are metapackages for all the 'distributions' so choosing one or
another is just an apt-get install and selecting the newly installed
desktop as default.

So, why people feels the need to give them different names? And, if I
understand things at least a little, examples like KUbuntu are no longer
supported by Canonical, so they are unofficial, so they can not be called
the same distro.

Take any other distribution:
_ Debian
_ ArchLinux
_ Mint
_ Fedora

None of them have different names for different DEs, AFAIK.

This is one thing that Ubuntu's done very well.

If you want Unity, you download an Ubuntu Live CD that boots into
Unity and installs Unity.

If you want KDE, you download a Kubuntu Live CD that boots into KDE
and install KDE.

Lather, rinse, and repeat for the other DEs.

Prepending the DE start letter was a brilliant idea. Would you have
preferred that they name these CDs ubuntu.iso and ubuntu-kde.iso in
more or less the same way that Debian calls its GNOME and KDE CDs
debian-7.2.0-amd64-CD-1.iso and debian-7.2.0-amd64-kde-CD-1.iso? Ot
that they called their different DEs Ubuntu-Unity, Ubuntu-KDE, ...? In
the UK you disembark from a plane and in the US you deplane. OMG,
where's the firing squad? Someone's wrong!

They've ensured that the different DEs and their installers are easily
identified for their users. But you can install any DE and then
apt-install any other DE, so Ubuntu behaves in this regard like any
other distribution.

To make things more confusing, earlier this month XFCE became
tasksel/d-i's default desktop [1] so a user could download the plain
CD1 expecting to install GNOME and get XFCE. It's testing so it's OK
but it's not the most straightforward move from a user's perspective.

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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-20 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Wednesday 20 November 2013 13:52:02 Tom H wrote:
 it's not the most straightforward move from a user's perspective.

From this user's perspective, it's a very good idea.

Lisi


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Re: Why Debian

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 2:04 PM, Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wednesday 20 November 2013 13:52:02 Tom H wrote:

 it's not the most straightforward move from a user's perspective.

 From this user's perspective, it's a very good idea.

I wasn't commenting on the goodness. :)

I was just commenting on the invisible switch. Theoretically invisible
anyway, because I doubt that there will any CD1-downloader who won't
know about the change if Debian 8 is released with XFCE as its default
desktop; it'll be reported on and commented upon ad infinitum pre- and
post-release.

PS: I mispelled your name (Lizi) earlier; sorry.


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-20 Thread Slavko

Hi,

Dňa Wed, 20 Nov 2013 10:47:53 + Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com napísal:

 AFAIK, if a package has ubuntu in its version name, it's been
 changed by the Ubuntu developers.

Are you sure, that this is mark of changes? Are you checked the
changelog? It is not necessary mark of changes in package, it is only
marks, that package was rebuilded, e.g. due the dependencies...

 I've just checked on my 14.04 laptop and the percentage is about 14%.

My numbers are 3 years old, it was taken by the Raphael Herctzog, AFAIK
he is both, the Debian and Ubuntu, developer, then he must know
something about these things ;-)

You can read more here
http://raphaelhertzog.com/2010/11/22/how-ubuntu-builds-up-on-debian/.

Sure, today can be numbers little different.

regards

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http://slavino.sk


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Re: Why Debian

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Slavko li...@slavino.sk wrote:
 Dňa Wed, 20 Nov 2013 10:47:53 + Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com napísal:

 AFAIK, if a package has ubuntu in its version name, it's been
 changed by the Ubuntu developers.

 Are you sure, that this is mark of changes? Are you checked the
 changelog? It is not necessary mark of changes in package, it is only
 marks, that package was rebuilded, e.g. due the dependencies...

 I've just checked on my 14.04 laptop and the percentage is about 14%.

 My numbers are 3 years old, it was taken by the Raphael Herctzog, AFAIK
 he is both, the Debian and Ubuntu, developer, then he must know
 something about these things ;-)

 You can read more here
 http://raphaelhertzog.com/2010/11/22/how-ubuntu-builds-up-on-debian/.

 Sure, today can be numbers little different.

You've misread that post.

7% is the percentage of packages in Ubuntu that are packaged in Ubuntu
and not in Debian.

17% is the percentage of packages in Ubuntu that are packaged in both
Debian and Ubuntu and are modified by Ubuntu developers.

In a reply to a comment, Raphael says The 17% is easy to find out,
take common packages between Debian and Ubuntu and count those which
have a version ending in ubuntuX.

I searched for package versions that included ubuntu without
excluding packages that are in Ubuntu and aren't in Debian.


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-20 Thread Ric Moore


On 11/19/2013 03:49 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:


When Ubuntu was new, they called me a troll when I said something about
Mark Shuttleworth, but all I said became true :). I'm satisfied ;).


boink! We shoulda had a V-8 juice! One thing is for certain, This User 
list is 1000% better than the Ubunutu user list. My congrats to all for 
maintaining intellectual integrity.


Mark kept threatening to shut down the email-based User list for some 
time. At least that is what the moderators kept telling us. Then when 
several of us old timers brought up the lens shopping thingie they 
told us that it was not a technical issue.  Some us figured/argued 
that it was indeed a technical issue, then the entire list became moderated.


So, after many veiled threats, I installed XFCE Debian and I couldn't be 
happier. Again, thanks to all involved. This list reminds me of the old 
Caldera User list, where we had some great minds who didn't shy from 
sharing what they know. Again, thanks. Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad.
/https://linuxcounter.net/cert/44256.png /


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-19 Thread berenger . morel


Le 19.11.2013 03:04, Tamer Higazi a écrit :

Serious answer Why Debian and Not Ubuntu ?!

1. Because I don't like a commercial sponsored operating system.
How knows on what kind of stupid idea they come to collect data.


This one is a valid point.

2. As well, specially the Gnome3 system ubuntu delivers by default 
makes

me puke!


This one is not. Ubuntu uses Unity as default DE, not gnome3. There was 
a lot of noise about that new DE when the first version appeared.



3. The installer is full of advertising, and what they allready have
preinstalled, specially their cloud stuff


That's an argument, but, honestly, a poor one. You do the installation 
only once, right?
And I guess it looks like the advertisements there are when you install 
windows, or lot of other softwares. I do not see any problem with ads, 
if and only if it is not invasive.


About preinstalled stuff, again, nothing wrong here. If you choose a 
standard Debian installation, you will have a lot of crap you will 
probably never need, depending on your hardware.

Some example, which will fit, or not, depending on your usages:
_ scanners and printers related packages
_ desktop environment (I said, the default installation, right? I 
perfectly know that they can be avoided)

_ command-line tools
_ ssh
etc.

They are here because they are used by lot of people, but you are free 
to remove them.


On my Notebook I was lazy to set up a new Debian version because it 
came

with ubuntu preinstalled.

But honestly, I think when I have more time, I'll set up on my corei7
notebook a new debian version.


You could probably change the sources, and try an upgrade from Ubuntu 
to Debian, too. This would probably need some tinkering or web 
searching, but I bet it is doable.


Do you know with how much headache it was connected to get gnome2 
(mate

desktop) to install again 


As other people said, mate is not gnome2. Plus, can you provide us some 
real problems you had? Having an example could help us understanding 
your argument, because some of us do not use Ubuntu.



And installing from untrusted sources.


What tool did you used?
With my usual aptitude, I have to download keys to make external 
repositories trusted, or to say yes, I trust that package at each 
upgrade/installation of the external packages. I also had the same 
problem with Debian's official repositories, once, because I had 
removed the keys (I was learning my system by tinkering at that time).


So, I think that the problems you had with untrusted packages can be:
1) your fault: did you install the key?
2) mate developer's fault, if they did not provided one.
3) your package management software's fault.

But, I strongly doubt that the problem comes from Ubuntu, which uses 
the same package management as Debian, and so provides apt-get/aptitude. 
Probably some graphical interfaces too, but since I do not use them, I 
do not know the problems they can have.
Excepted if you used one only developed by Ubuntu, indeed. So, what 
tool did you had, and with which problems?



Do not take me wrong, I do not say that Debian is not as good or better 
that Ubuntu (I think it is better, especially in terms of flexibility: 
there are more than one DE maintained in the distribution, instead of 
having a distro fork for each DE... this approach is just ugly for me, 
but is interesting for simple users not used to have choice. Choice 
costs time, and some people do not want it for that reason.). It's 
simply that your argumentation lacks strength, and should never convince 
any user which knows Debian and Ubuntu.



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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-19 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Ma, 19 nov 13, 14:40:57, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
 
 You could probably change the sources, and try an upgrade from
 Ubuntu to Debian, too. This would probably need some tinkering or
 web searching, but I bet it is doable.

Doable? Probably. Recommended? Definitely not!

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-19 Thread Tom H

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 1:40 PM,  berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
 Le 19.11.2013 03:04, Tamer Higazi a écrit :

 2. As well, specially the Gnome3 system ubuntu delivers by default makes
 me puke!

 This one is not. Ubuntu uses Unity as default DE, not gnome3. There was a
 lot of noise about that new DE when the first version appeared.

Unity is a GNOME 3 shell, in the same way that gnome-shell and cinnamon are.


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-19 Thread Alois Mahdal

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:40:57 +0100
berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

 So, I think that the problems you had with untrusted packages
 can be:
 1) your fault: did you install the key?
 2) mate developer's fault, if they did not provided one.
 3) your package management software's fault.

4) there is an actual ongoing MITM attack.

Isn't it ironic, how we people tend to forget about real
meaning of own alarms?  *Especially* those of us who
really understand them?


aL.
-- 
Alois Mahdal


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-19 Thread Nemeth Gyorgy

2013-11-19 14:40 keltezéssel, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org írta:

 Do not take me wrong, I do not say that Debian is not as good or better
 that Ubuntu (I think it is better, especially in terms of flexibility:
 there are more than one DE maintained in the distribution, instead of
 having a distro fork for each DE... this approach is just ugly for me,
 but is interesting for simple users not used to have choice. Choice
 costs time, and some people do not want it for that reason.). It's
 simply that your argumentation lacks strength, and should never convince
 any user which knows Debian and Ubuntu.
 
 
Actually it is not a distro fork. The pool of Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu,
whateverubuntu is the same (the sources.list is the same for all). You
can consider the different 'distributions' as different install sets for
the same distribution with different default environments and settings.
There are metapackages for all the 'distributions' so choosing one or
another is just an apt-get install and selecting the newly installed
desktop as default.

-- 
--- Friczy ---
'Death is not a bug, it's a feature'


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Re: Why Debian

On Tue, 2013-11-19 at 21:26 +0100, Nemeth Gyorgy wrote:
 The pool of Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, whateverubuntu is the same

That is correct, but the projects contribute to the pool. Ubuntu Studio
is based on Xubuntu, but Ubuntu Studio e.g. contributes a customized
main menu for this pool. Yes, you can install Kubuntu and then replace
KDE with Xfce and add the Ubuntu Studio meta packages. All those
projects fit to the Ubuntu policy, so you need a PPA to get e.g.
linux-rt by a repository.

The advertisings for Ubuntu are present when e.g. starting Thunderbird
for the first time and when opening the software crap thingy, you see
prices for some apps, while some apps are not shown.

Some of those projects try to get rid of some of that capitalistic crap,
so it can make a difference with what project you start, even while they
all share the same policy and repositories.

When Ubuntu was new, they called me a troll when I said something about
Mark Shuttleworth, but all I said became true :). I'm satisfied ;).


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-19 Thread Alex Naysmith

I previously used Xubuntu and was very happy with it until Software Centre
superseded Synaptic as the default graphical package manager.

Software Centre is just horrible and slow and no good for old computers.
Arch takes too long to set up and can cause head-aches when Pacman -Syu
makes significant changes (such as the change from HAL to udev). I've not
tried OpenSuse, but it does look interesting.

I'm pleasantly surprised with just how similar Debian XFCE and Xubuntu are,
which makes me wonder if there are any major differences at all.


On 19 November 2013 20:13, Alois Mahdal alois.mahdal.1-ndm...@zxcvb.czwrote:

 On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:40:57 +0100
 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
 
  So, I think that the problems you had with untrusted packages
  can be:
  1) your fault: did you install the key?
  2) mate developer's fault, if they did not provided one.
  3) your package management software's fault.

 4) there is an actual ongoing MITM attack.

 Isn't it ironic, how we people tend to forget about real
 meaning of own alarms?  *Especially* those of us who
 really understand them?


 aL.
 --
 Alois Mahdal


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Re: Why Debian

On Tue, 2013-11-19 at 20:54 +, Alex Naysmith wrote:
 Arch [...] can cause head-aches when Pacman -Syu makes significant
 changes

If so, then the problem exists between keyboard and chair. Before you
run pacman -Syu (an update), you should take a look at the Arch
homepage, no link on the homepage, directly take a look at the start
site, https://www.archlinux.org/ . It's a rolling release, so
transitions sometimes happen, e.g. for the FSH and this indeed could be
tricky, but the steps are explained on the homepage and usually a
transition does cause much noise, so even if you usually ignore news for
your distro and make updates without knowing what you're doing, at least
when there's much noise about a topic, it's time to take a look at the
update notes, before doing an update.

This btw. is the same for Debian and other distros, resp. when it isn't
needed, than this comes with other drawbacks. Debian stable won't make a
transition, but the side effect is, that a Debian stable user can't
contribute to upstream and upstream can't help when stable does use
version 0.5, while upstream already is at upstream-stable release
version 8.4.


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-19 Thread Tom H

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Alex Naysmith yeoman.pyt...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 19 November 2013 20:13, Alois Mahdal alois.mahdal.1-ndm...@zxcvb.cz
 wrote:
 On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:40:57 +0100
 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

 So, I think that the problems you had with untrusted packages
 can be:
 1) your fault: did you install the key?
 2) mate developer's fault, if they did not provided one.
 3) your package management software's fault.

 4) there is an actual ongoing MITM attack.

 Isn't it ironic, how we people tend to forget about real
 meaning of own alarms? *Especially* those of us who
 really understand them?

 I previously used Xubuntu and was very happy with it until Software Centre
 superseded Synaptic as the default graphical package manager.

 Software Centre is just horrible and slow and no good for old computers.
 Arch takes too long to set up and can cause head-aches when Pacman -Syu
 makes significant changes (such as the change from HAL to udev). I've not
 tried OpenSuse, but it does look interesting.

 I'm pleasantly surprised with just how similar Debian XFCE and Xubuntu are,
 which makes me wonder if there are any major differences at all.

Please bottom post.

Differences: upstart and plymouth; the rest _might_ be quite similar.


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Re: Why Debian

On Tue, 2013-11-19 at 21:55 +, Tom H wrote:
 On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Alex Naysmith yeoman.pyt...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
  I'm pleasantly surprised with just how similar Debian XFCE and Xubuntu are,
  which makes me wonder if there are any major differences at all.
 
 Differences: upstart and plymouth; the rest _might_ be quite similar.

What should be different? Just the version and perhaps how some services
are started. It's the same for my Arch install and my FreeBSD install,
just the Xfce versions differ. Xfce is Xfce is Xfce.



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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-19 Thread Slavko

Hi,

Dňa Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:55:41 + Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com napísal:

  I'm pleasantly surprised with just how similar Debian XFCE and
  Xubuntu are, which makes me wonder if there are any major
  differences at all.
 
 Please bottom post.
 
 Differences: upstart and plymouth; the rest _might_ be quite similar.
 

I sometime somewhere read, that Ubuntu is 93 % of Debian and only rest
7 % packages are changed/added.

BTW: Plymouth was nice, i used it a long time in Debian, then something
was wrong and i purged it.

regards

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Re: Why Debian

On Tue, 2013-11-19 at 23:46 +0100, Slavko wrote:
 I sometime somewhere read, that Ubuntu is 93 % of Debian and only rest
 7 % packages are changed/added.

Debian binary packages for 32-bit architecture are build to run on older
computers, than packages for Ubuntu, so they are at least rebuild from
Debian sources.



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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-19 Thread Nate Bargmann

* On 2013 19 Nov 16:48 -0600, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
 What should be different? Just the version and perhaps how some services
 are started. It's the same for my Arch install and my FreeBSD install,
 just the Xfce versions differ. Xfce is Xfce is Xfce.

Interestingly, on my Xubuntu installations the launch bar at the bottom
of the screen is always 100% of the screen width.  On Debian it is as
wide as the icons and no wider.  Setting the Xubuntu Xfce settings to
match those on Debian results in no change.

Other than that, the default theme, and the software updates, they're
quite similar.

- Nate

-- 

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Re: Why Debian

On Tue, 2013-11-19 at 19:10 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
 on my Xubuntu installations the launch bar at the bottom
 of the screen is always 100% of the screen width.  On Debian it is as
 wide as the icons and no wider.  Setting the Xubuntu Xfce settings to
 match those on Debian results in no change.

So, if you set the panel preferences to less than 100% it has got no
effect? It sounds like a bug. If you didn't use expanded separators but
tons of not expanded separators, this might or might not cause such an
issue. Did you check if something invisible does stretch the panel? What
happens if you uncheck the option to automatically increase the length
of the panel?


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-18 Thread Tamer Higazi

Serious answer Why Debian and Not Ubuntu ?!

1. Because I don't like a commercial sponsored operating system.
How knows on what kind of stupid idea they come to collect data.

2. As well, specially the Gnome3 system ubuntu delivers by default makes
me puke!

3. The installer is full of advertising, and what they allready have
preinstalled, specially their cloud stuff


If it's about me, I prefere the testing version of the latest debian
distro.


The wiki from ubuntu, you have to say is much better.
But, the ubuntu is no real benefit for those who are very familiar with it.


On my Notebook I was lazy to set up a new Debian version because it came
with ubuntu preinstalled.

But honestly, I think when I have more time, I'll set up on my corei7
notebook a new debian version.

Do you know with how much headache it was connected to get gnome2 (mate
desktop) to install again 

And installing from untrusted sources.

If ever insalling ubuntu again, I'll choose xubuntu, but that won't
happen.


Tamer


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-18 Thread Randy Edwards

On Monday, November 18, 2013 09:04:12 PM Tamer Higazi wrote:
 1. Because I don't like a commercial sponsored operating system.
 How knows on what kind of stupid idea they come to collect data.

   To me, this is a point that is not emphasized enough.

   With the NSA revelations that Microsoft, Apple, et al, have cooperated on 
eviscerating their encryption and are working with the US gov't to undermine 
their own customers/users, Debian and the free software warld should be 
highlighting this key difference in free software.


-- 
The United States became the target of terrorists on 9/11 not because of the 
country's freedom and democracy, but because U.S. Middle East policy has had 
nothing to do with freedom and democracy. -- Stephen Zunes.


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-18 Thread Robert Holtzman

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 03:04:12AM +0100, Tamer Higazi wrote:
 Serious answer Why Debian and Not Ubuntu ?!
 
 1. Because I don't like a commercial sponsored operating system.
 How knows on what kind of stupid idea they come to collect data.
 
 2. As well, specially the Gnome3 system ubuntu delivers by default makes
 me puke!

Debian wheezy has Gnome 3 as the default DE. Ubuntu uses Unity which
looks and acts somewhat like Gnome 3 but isn't Gnome 3.

 
 3. The installer is full of advertising, and what they allready have
 preinstalled, specially their cloud stuff
 
 
 If it's about me, I prefere the testing version of the latest debian
 distro.
 
 
 The wiki from ubuntu, you have to say is much better.
 But, the ubuntu is no real benefit for those who are very familiar with it.
 
 
 On my Notebook I was lazy to set up a new Debian version because it came
 with ubuntu preinstalled.
 
 But honestly, I think when I have more time, I'll set up on my corei7
 notebook a new debian version.
 
 Do you know with how much headache it was connected to get gnome2 (mate
 desktop) to install again 

Hate to tell you but Mate isn't Gnome 2. It can be tweaked to look
somewhat like Gnome 2.

Gnome 2 is dead. Developement has stopped.

 
 And installing from untrusted sources.
 
 If ever insalling ubuntu again, I'll choose xubuntu, but that won't
 happen.
 
 
 Tamer
 
 
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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-18 Thread Scott Ferguson

On 19/11/13 18:03, Robert Holtzman wrote:
 On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 03:04:12AM +0100, Tamer Higazi wrote:
 Serious answer Why Debian and Not Ubuntu ?!


snipped


 If ever insalling ubuntu again, I'll choose xubuntu, but that won't
 happen.


Why?

At the first Debian Installer screen:-
- Advanced Options - Alternative Desktops - XFCE
Press Enter



 Tamer



Kind regards


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-17 Thread Celejar

On Sat, 09 Nov 2013 10:48:26 -0600
Conrad Nelson y...@marupa.net wrote:

...

 for you what you want, unlike Canonical in Ubuntu. For a very long time 
 I used Arch, then Gentoo, and am still a big fan of both, since as far 
 as choices and flexibility go they are leagues ahead of anything Debian 
 could pull off without overhauling APT.

Explain? [Not challenging you, just curious. Never really used either
Arch or Gentoo, and I'm wondering what I'm missing wrt package
management.]

Celejar


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-15 Thread Miles Fidelman


Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Mon, 2013-11-11 at 17:15 +, Karl E. Jorgensen wrote:

Is there a better distro for managing
source-based in installs from upstream (and I'm not talking Gentoo,
where Portage is a packaging system for source code - I'm talking
semi-automatic management and updates from upstream source.  Any
thoughts?

You'll still end up with some package concept

True, but that's not an issue, it does allow you to install a package
and this package then will download the source from upstream. You will
be ask if you want to automatically let build the package, or if you
want to configure it first.


It occurs to me to ask: is there anything like this for Debian?  (I know 
about checkinstall, but it doesn't download source from upstream).


Thanks,

Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-15 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Fri, 2013-11-15 at 13:25 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
 checkinstall

I can't answer your question, but I love checkinstall :). Unfortunately
checkinstall doesn't work always.



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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-15 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Fri, 2013-11-15 at 22:41 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
 On Fri, 2013-11-15 at 13:25 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
  checkinstall
 
 I can't answer your question, but I love checkinstall :). Unfortunately
 checkinstall doesn't work always.

PS:

Make love, not install! - A quote from somebody who prefers to remain
anonymous.


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-15 Thread Alberto Salvia Novella


Thanks for your comments on this topic.

Have a nice week ☕


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-13 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Tue, 2013-11-12 at 23:41 -0200, André Nunes Batista wrote:
 On Sun, 2013-11-10 at 02:36 -0600, Conrad Nelson wrote:
  Please understand I think FOSS is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT and VERY high 
  quality. I certainly appreciate it myself as a programmer. My point is 
  more toward the usability and perception issues that often plague many 
  Linux distributions, due in no small part to a blind we must be free 
  mentality I often see. A good term for it is zealotry. I'm not the type 
  who actually views whether software is open sourrce as a moral/ethical 
  issue. A legal one, certainly, but only in the sense that licenses do 
  have an impact how individuals, groups, and businesses will end up using 
  the software.
 
 Sorry to bring this up, but I couldn't let it. And according to which
 logic you are able to persuade people that free software adherence by
 nasty debian community is what is responsible for the poor state of
 helplessness bigmoney.com's users are into after years of paying for
 their enslavement?

Zealotry?

IOW Conrad, if you would let fall the soup in the jails communal shower,
you would let you rape by Bill Gates and Steve Wozniak, even if you
would be the world heavyweight champion?

I'm not world heavyweight champion, but in a better shape than Bill
Gates and Steve Wozniak, I at least would knock them out. Doing this
isn't zealotry.

Have fun under the shower with Bill and Steve and perhaps you like to
read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome .



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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-12 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Sb, 09 nov 13, 23:15:52, Lisi Reisz wrote:
 I rapidly realised, however, that there is a very simple solution.  I 
 open the box, insert an old ethernet card, do my network installation, 
 load the drivers for the card(s) belonging to the box, remove the old 
 card.

There's a netinstall CD with non-free firmware included. Search engines 
should be able to find it (Debian's download pages are not easy to 
navigate and this particular image is not advertised because of the 
non-free firmware).

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-12 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Lu, 11 nov 13, 15:09:31, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
 
 Mine have only two reply functions ( roundcube ):

Really? Your User-Agents says Thuderbird :)
 
 reply to which reply only to sender
 reply to all which, for the ml, reply to the whole ml.
 
 It sounds like a pretty good behavior to me.

As you just noticed, you don't have to option to reply to both the list 
and the OP.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-12 Thread André Nunes Batista

On Sun, 2013-11-10 at 02:36 -0600, Conrad Nelson wrote:
 Please understand I think FOSS is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT and VERY high 
 quality. I certainly appreciate it myself as a programmer. My point is 
 more toward the usability and perception issues that often plague many 
 Linux distributions, due in no small part to a blind we must be free 
 mentality I often see. A good term for it is zealotry. I'm not the type 
 who actually views whether software is open sourrce as a moral/ethical 
 issue. A legal one, certainly, but only in the sense that licenses do 
 have an impact how individuals, groups, and businesses will end up using 
 the software.

Sorry to bring this up, but I couldn't let it. And according to which
logic you are able to persuade people that free software adherence by
nasty debian community is what is responsible for the poor state of
helplessness bigmoney.com's users are into after years of paying for
their enslavement?


-- 
André N. Batista
GNUPG/PGP KEY: 6722CF80



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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-11 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Mon, 2013-11-11 at 03:32 +0100, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
 
 Le 10.11.2013 19:06, Jeff Bauer a écrit :
  On 11/10/2013 12:52 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
  On Sun, 2013-11-10 at 12:44 -0500, Jeff Bauer wrote:
  On 11/10/2013 10:40 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
  On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 08:17:06AM -0700, thomas aylward wrote:
  how does a novice begin with debian?  Tom
 
  How does a novice begin with Linux -
  Burn, test drive, and used a live CD distribution for a minimum of 
  a
  month and learn all you can about it. Then try some others. Repeat 
  as
  necessary until you find a distro worthy of installing.
  Simply start with one distro and after a while install two other
  distros to the same machine, if the chosen distro shouldn't fit to 
  your
  needs.
 
  Advising a novice at Linux to build and configure a multi-boot,
  multi-OS machine?
 
 Multi boots are usually made by beginners to keep windows aside linux, 
 which never works, because people will always tend to use the system 
 they know the most and/or on which they can do the most things. And for 
 beginners, that system is clearly not a linux based OS, but Windows. And 
 if examples are needed: games, CAO, and even simple drawing are easier 
 and less restricted on Windows.
 So, I agree with you, advising them to do a multi-boot is not the right 
 thing to do.
 
 /But/ it was never said in previous message. Plus, linux beginners are 
 not necessarily ignorants of computer sciences. I was not. And finally, 
 since Grub is the most commonly installed boot loader, setting up a 
 multi-boot do not imply to configure anything. At least, with Debian, it 
 is made automatically.

I didn't advice to (1.) make a multi-boot from the beginning, I added
after a while it might make sense to install (2.) additional Linux,
not Windows.


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Re: Why Debian

On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 03:40:18PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
 The real problem is that the number of people who install
 any operating system from scratch at any time is very small:
 - probably less than 1% 

As in LFS? (I think I know what you mean, i.e from disk? )

 - people have been known to throuw 
 away Windows machines because of software failures which would
 have been solved y a reinstall.

Still got a laptop going strong¹ with Debian installed, whereas Windoze
died circa 3yrs ago. I believe there were no Windoze installation disks
with it at the time. *cough* *cough*

¹ You have to ctrl-alt-f1, then alt-f7 to kick the graphics card into
displaying in X, but otherwise ... :)

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: Why Debian

On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 01:04:27PM +1100, David wrote:
 On 11 November 2013 02:17, thomas aylward grasslandsc...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  how does a novice begin with debian?  Tom
 
 In addition to other replies, a local linux user group can be a good
 source of inspiration and assistance.

I'd say that in order of effectiveness and efficiency, that would be at
the top of the list. Even better is to know someone you get on with who
is willing to help/tutor you.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: Why Debian

On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 06:26:08PM +0100, Slavko wrote:
 then ask for CC is base way do get the responses. Please, do not use
 the Reply to All, or use MUA, which can identify MLs and post replies
^^
That 'or' should be 'but' because it read as:
 Please, do not use an MUA which can identify MLs ...
Which is not what I believe you are trying to say.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: Why Debian

2013-11-11 Thread Miles Fidelman


Chris Bannister wrote:

On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 01:04:27PM +1100, David wrote:

On 11 November 2013 02:17, thomas aylward grasslandsc...@gmail.com wrote:

how does a novice begin with debian?  Tom

In addition to other replies, a local linux user group can be a good
source of inspiration and assistance.

I'd say that in order of effectiveness and efficiency, that would be at
the top of the list. Even better is to know someone you get on with who
is willing to help/tutor you.


Coming back to the original poster's question, though, a specific answer 
comes back to a few scoping question:


1. define novice - novice at:
- Debian (obviously)
- Linux?
- Unix?
- installing and administering and o/s?
- installing and administering software (e.g., package management, 
compiling, ...)?

- using computers?

2. define begin:
- as a desktop user?
- for server use?
- installing and configuring?
- packaging?
- developing?

3. where do you want to end up:
- with a desktop system used for daily work
- administering a Debian server
- developing for the Debian environment
- ... somewhere else

Kind of makes a really big difference!  It's one thing for a developer, 
with a Sun workstation on their desk to begin w/ Debian, it's another 
for a graphics designer who wants to switch from Adobe on Windows, to 
the Gimp on Debian.


Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: Why Debian