Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Gene Heskett wrote:
> perhaps put them in a file drawer and close it to put them in the dark?

At least keep them covered in the spindle by the top paper disk and
the sideward collar.
I have most of my media in dark places. But some sit in their jewel cases
on my desk or on a shelf. No direct sun light, though.

Another problem might be temperature. The dye of optical media is a matter
of chemistry. Whether light has much direct impact seems to differ over
medium types and dyes. But temperature is always an issue.

Librarians seem to fear repeated quick temperature changes of their recorded
media. See
  https://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub121/sec5/
for interesting facts and rumors collected by very literate people.
(E.g. you can flood your CD spindle with a deadly dose of gamma rays without
 causing more damage than "discoloration" and a "burnt-substance odor".)


> I've not had a similar occurance with a spindle of dvd-r's, but
> they are a year or 2 newer.

The dye of CD-R[W] sits between the thin upper label sheet and the
polycarbonate disc. This is mechanically less robust than with DVD and BD
where the dye sits between two polycarbonate discs.
If a gap emerges between dye and clear disc, the optical properties will
be affected.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 03 April 2019 05:26:40 Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Curt wrote:
> > They [CD media] seem to be on their way out the door as a medium
>
> I ceased arguing against that claim 10 years ago. :))
>
>
> About Gene's adventure so far, i don't see the media type in the first
> row of suspects.
> The drive is more likely to be the culprit. How old is it ?
>
> Then there are the storage conditions of the blank media. Five years
> of lighting would be a good reason for the dye to get bad. Temperature
> might play a role. (Fungi rather not.)
> If it is about CD-RW, then a few rounds of blanking and writing might
> revitalize a tired dye.
>
> We might get more info if Gene would report the messages of
>
>   xorriso -outdev /dev/sr0 -toc
>
> while a fresh medium is in the drive.
> Drive model and Media model and manufacturer would tell something
> about the minimum age of the involved hardware.
>
>
> Mainboard "m2n-sli-deluxe" ... 10 years old ?

The manual copyright says 2006. I think it was later than that when I 
bought it to build this machine.


> Nevertheless, i'd expect that some of its USB ports would be
> recognized by the BIOS as candidates for booting.
> This thread from 2008
>   https://forum.pcmech.com/threads/m2n-sli-deluxe-boot-to-usb.197068/
> ends by
>
>   "The issue wasn't changing the boot sequence order by adding USB but
>rather adjusting the "Hard drive" option in the boot sequence to
> check usb first and then hard drive."

Its not a choice in the bios, version 1701 (the original Enterprise)
>
> Something for Gene to try independently of his installation adventure.
> Just check whether an USB stick with the netinst ISO boots to the
> first Debian menu (which is a ISOLINU menu, probably).

Apparently no need, by the time I got 5 down in the spindle of cd-r's, 
they were good. If light degrades them, thats a good explanation for the 
top of the stack to be fussy. I should throw something over the 
remaining 90 or so on the spindle to slow the degradation. If I think of 
it... I've not had a similar occurance with a spindle of dvd-r's, but 
they are a year or 2 newer.  Or perhaps put them in a file drawer and 
close it to put them in the dark?
>
> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Curt wrote:
> >> They [CD media] seem to be on their way out the door as a medium

I wrote:
> > I ceased arguing against that claim 10 years ago. :))

Paul Sutton wrote:
> CDs are still useful though,  The cost of a spindle of CD-r vs the same
> number of usb flash disks is that hte cd['s are cheaper.  And can be
> given away at install events.

Thank you for supporting an often discriminated media class.

As programmer who really cares about optical media, i'd say that CD are
outdated except for the purpose of Audio CDs and for use cases where
700 MiB of storage capacity suffices.
I write about one CD-RW per week and a dozen CD-Rs every three months.

Bread-and-butter has moved a while ago to 4.5 GiB DVD+RW, DVD-R, DVD+R.
Nowadays single layer 25 GB BD-R and BD-RE are pushing aside the DVD types
(50 EUR-cent for a BD-R, 1 EUR for a re-usable BD-RE).
I daily write small sessions on one BD-R, 3 BD-REs, and one DVD+RW.
Every second day there are backups to 1 BD-RE or 1 - 4 DVD+RW.


> I think they are also a cheap thing to give out at install days too.

They can be printed on (my employer bought a Canon iP7250 printer for
this) and they can be offered to the audience on a swedish Knaeckebroed
stick:
  
https://madamroteruebe.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Schwedisches-Lochkn%C3%A4cke-8467.jpg


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Joe]

On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 10:34:20 +0100
Paul Sutton  wrote:

> On 03/04/2019 10:26, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Curt wrote:  
> >> They [CD media] seem to be on their way out the door as a medium  
> > 
> > I ceased arguing against that claim 10 years ago. :))  
> 
> CDs are still useful though,  The cost of a spindle of CD-r vs the
> same number of usb flash disks is that hte cd['s are cheaper.  And
> can be given away at install events.
> 
> Plus in some ways a Debian CD has a longer useful life. If I made a cd
> of Debian 10.0 it is still useful for istalling Debian 10.9 (when
> released).
> 
> I think they are also a cheap thing to give out at install days too.

I still use DVDs for backup. I have a 4GB encrypted file on my laptop,
and at least once a week, copy it to a DVD. The file is filling up now,
so I'll be making a second one soon. On the whole, I don't really care
if a five-year-old disc becomes unreadable, as I have so many other
copies of what is on it. I do check old ones now and then.

And yes, if I spend a lot of time on one file or it is otherwise
irreplaceable, I will immediately make a couple of backup copies on the
USB sticks and SD cards that I carry. One of them has a copy of the
latest backup, so I have my laptop data with me at all times. I also
synchronise much of the encrypted file with my server when I fire up
the laptop at home.

And yes, obviously I don't do video editing. I haven't yet filled the
4GB after about three years. Most of my files are less than 100KB,
almost all are less than 1MB.

-- 
Joe

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Joe]

On Wed, 03 Apr 2019 11:26:40 +0200
"Thomas Schmitt"  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Curt wrote:
> > They [CD media] seem to be on their way out the door as a medium  
> 
> I ceased arguing against that claim 10 years ago. :))
> 
> 
> About Gene's adventure so far, i don't see the media type in the
> first row of suspects.
> The drive is more likely to be the culprit. How old is it ?
> 
> Then there are the storage conditions of the blank media. Five years
> of lighting would be a good reason for the dye to get bad.
> Temperature might play a role. (Fungi rather not.)
> If it is about CD-RW, then a few rounds of blanking and writing might
> revitalize a tired dye.
> 
> We might get more info if Gene would report the messages of
> 
>   xorriso -outdev /dev/sr0 -toc
> 
> while a fresh medium is in the drive.
> Drive model and Media model and manufacturer would tell something
> about the minimum age of the involved hardware.
> 
> 
> Mainboard "m2n-sli-deluxe" ... 10 years old ?
> Nevertheless, i'd expect that some of its USB ports would be
> recognized by the BIOS as candidates for booting.
> This thread from 2008
>   https://forum.pcmech.com/threads/m2n-sli-deluxe-boot-to-usb.197068/
> ends by
> 
>   "The issue wasn't changing the boot sequence order by adding USB but
>rather adjusting the "Hard drive" option in the boot sequence to
> check usb first and then hard drive."
> 
> Something for Gene to try independently of his installation adventure.
> Just check whether an USB stick with the netinst ISO boots to the
> first Debian menu (which is a ISOLINU menu, probably).
> 

I've owned at least one computer (retired now) that would not boot from
a USB stick but would boot from a USB-connected CDROM or hard drive. I
have another computer (my main workstation) which will boot from USB
media even when disabled in the BIOS and last in the boot sequence. I
regularly come back to the machine and find a hung boot because I
forgot to remove a USB stick.

-- 
Joe

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Paul Sutton]

On 03/04/2019 10:26, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Curt wrote:
>> They [CD media] seem to be on their way out the door as a medium
> 
> I ceased arguing against that claim 10 years ago. :))

CDs are still useful though,  The cost of a spindle of CD-r vs the same
number of usb flash disks is that hte cd['s are cheaper.  And can be
given away at install events.

Plus in some ways a Debian CD has a longer useful life. If I made a cd
of Debian 10.0 it is still useful for istalling Debian 10.9 (when released).

I think they are also a cheap thing to give out at install days too.

Paul

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Curt wrote:
> They [CD media] seem to be on their way out the door as a medium

I ceased arguing against that claim 10 years ago. :))


About Gene's adventure so far, i don't see the media type in the first row
of suspects.
The drive is more likely to be the culprit. How old is it ?

Then there are the storage conditions of the blank media. Five years of
lighting would be a good reason for the dye to get bad. Temperature might
play a role. (Fungi rather not.)
If it is about CD-RW, then a few rounds of blanking and writing might
revitalize a tired dye.

We might get more info if Gene would report the messages of

  xorriso -outdev /dev/sr0 -toc

while a fresh medium is in the drive.
Drive model and Media model and manufacturer would tell something about
the minimum age of the involved hardware.


Mainboard "m2n-sli-deluxe" ... 10 years old ?
Nevertheless, i'd expect that some of its USB ports would be recognized
by the BIOS as candidates for booting.
This thread from 2008
  https://forum.pcmech.com/threads/m2n-sli-deluxe-boot-to-usb.197068/
ends by

  "The issue wasn't changing the boot sequence order by adding USB but
   rather adjusting the "Hard drive" option in the boot sequence to check
   usb first and then hard drive."

Something for Gene to try independently of his installation adventure.
Just check whether an USB stick with the netinst ISO boots to the
first Debian menu (which is a ISOLINU menu, probably).


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Curt]

On 2019-04-02, Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 02, 2019 at 08:55:52PM +0100, Brian wrote:
>> 99% of users write netinstall images to a a USB stick.
>
> Is it really that high?  I still use CDs.  I feel like more than 1% of
> us do, but maybe I'm mistaken.

My original feeling was he has these cds lying around unused, so why not
try to put them to good use in the spirit of some sort of ecological,
down-home country spirit of frugality in this throw-away age of consumer
profligacy.

I don't use them any longer myself. They seem to be on their way out the
door as a medium (my sympathies to T.S.). I never liked that sound of a
reaction engine starting up anyway.

People do hang the shiny things from their fruit trees to scare off
avian fruit lovers, so maybe all is not lost. I think the barbarous term
for that is 'repurposing.' 

Though the ecological political correctness of such a maneuver might be
subject to caution.

> Then again, I don't know how one would accurately measure this.
>
>

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[mick crane]

On 2019-04-02 23:14, Felix Miata wrote:




99% of users write netinstall images to a a USB stick.


Cite please? If there are 100 users on this list, Gene plus Greg plus 
me would

make 3%. :-D


If this is a poll I use DVDs, there is more space to write on.

mick
--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Brian]

On Tue 02 Apr 2019 at 16:14:23 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Tuesday 02 April 2019 15:55:52 Brian wrote:
> >
> > Update? You are moving on to buster? Or is that a step too far?
> 
> Until Buster is official, thats a step too far. This is my main house 
> box.

At your time of life, living dangerously should be an imperative. :)

-- 
Brian.

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Brian]

On Tue 02 Apr 2019 at 16:02:59 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 02, 2019 at 08:55:52PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > 99% of users write netinstall images to a a USB stick.
> 
> Is it really that high?  I still use CDs.  I feel like more than 1% of
> us do, but maybe I'm mistaken.
> 
> Then again, I don't know how one would accurately measure this.

I made it up. Dramatic licence. DFSG-free, of course.

-- 
Brian.

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Brian]

On Tue 02 Apr 2019 at 18:14:17 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> Brian composed on 2019-04-02 20:55 (UTC+0100):
> 
> > On Tue 02 Apr 2019 at 14:08:15 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> 
> >> I have a spindle of memorex  cd-r's, and I've now downloaded and burnt 4 
> >> copy's of the buster netinstall image to a series of them. 
> 
> My open spool of Office Depot CD-R probably still has 30 or more, and I think 
> I
> have an unopened one squirreled away. My spool of Memorex CD-RW likely more 
> than
> 30, which will probably cover whatever life I have remaining when the Office 
> Depot
> supplies are exhausted.
> 
> > 99% of users write netinstall images to a a USB stick.
> 
> Cite please? If there are 100 users on this list, Gene plus Greg plus me would
> make 3%. :-D

If there are a thousand users, it would be 0.3%. 
 
> > They know 
> > the technology is reliable
> 
> Depends how reliable is defined:
> 
> USB media reliably has insufficient space to write with 
> pen/chalk/crayon/marker on
> the media container what the media contains.
> 
> USB media commonly differs in size or shape from other USB media.
> 
> USB media has *no* convenient library system, unlike DVDs & CDs, for which 
> uniform
> size and shape plastic containers with convenient additional labeling 
> facility are
> available, for which drawers and boxes and the like are available to library.
> 
> USB media fairly often usurps the normal boot device's device name(s).
> 
> In the instant case, USB substantially over-supplies space for the half-CD or 
> less
> required to fit the iso, keeping unit cost high for single or limited use 
> media.
> 
> Anyone tried to buy 2GB or smaller USB devices lately? I haven't seen any in
> stores in years.

These points may be valid but not in the context of writing a Debian
image to a USB stick.

> > and provides a bootable image. The other
> > 1% takes a different path which, very often, involves other people
> > in some work - like posting to -user. 
> 
> USB sticks don't cause the same?

I have yet to see a well-documented, repeatable failure of 

 cat debian_iso > /dev/sdX

which has given rise to any deteailed discussion.

-- 
Brian.

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Felix Miata]

Brian composed on 2019-04-02 20:55 (UTC+0100):

> On Tue 02 Apr 2019 at 14:08:15 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

>> I have a spindle of memorex  cd-r's, and I've now downloaded and burnt 4 
>> copy's of the buster netinstall image to a series of them. 

My open spool of Office Depot CD-R probably still has 30 or more, and I think I
have an unopened one squirreled away. My spool of Memorex CD-RW likely more than
30, which will probably cover whatever life I have remaining when the Office 
Depot
supplies are exhausted.

> 99% of users write netinstall images to a a USB stick.

Cite please? If there are 100 users on this list, Gene plus Greg plus me would
make 3%. :-D

> They know 
> the technology is reliable

Depends how reliable is defined:

USB media reliably has insufficient space to write with pen/chalk/crayon/marker 
on
the media container what the media contains.

USB media commonly differs in size or shape from other USB media.

USB media has *no* convenient library system, unlike DVDs & CDs, for which 
uniform
size and shape plastic containers with convenient additional labeling facility 
are
available, for which drawers and boxes and the like are available to library.

USB media fairly often usurps the normal boot device's device name(s).

In the instant case, USB substantially over-supplies space for the half-CD or 
less
required to fit the iso, keeping unit cost high for single or limited use media.

Anyone tried to buy 2GB or smaller USB devices lately? I haven't seen any in
stores in years.

> and provides a bootable image. The other
> 1% takes a different path which, very often, involves other people
> in some work - like posting to -user. 

USB sticks don't cause the same?

>> But I can't get any of them to boot.

CDs, DVDs & USB sticks are containers that provide an installation kernel and
initrd that firmware can load. So are HDDs and SSDs. If you're upgrading or 
adding
another installation via network, the bootloader on the HDD or SSD can load an
installation kernel and initrd, arguably with less fuss than creating 
installation
media. It's what I do for by far the most installations.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 02 April 2019 15:55:52 Brian wrote:

> On Tue 02 Apr 2019 at 14:08:15 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings all;
>
> Greetings, old man.
>
> > I have a spindle of memorex  cd-r's, and I've now downloaded and
> > burnt 4 copy's of the buster netinstall image to a series of them.
>
> 99% of users write netinstall images to a a USB stick. They know
> the technology is reliable and provides a bootable image. The other
> 1% takes a different path which, very often, involves other people
> in some work - like posting to -user.

Old asus mobo, m2n-sli-deluxe, has no biit from usb in the bios. :(
 
> > But I can't get any of them to boot.
> >
> > Does old, these are at least 5 years old, cd'r media go bad?
> >
> > However the sha256sum's of both the file and the just burnt /dev/sr0
> > match. This is the 5th burn attempted.
> >
> > 4 hours later, it actually booted, so something that looks a teeny
> > bit like stretch is now installed on a different drive.  Hard to
> > tell with gnome for a desktop, and the Konsole available there has 
> > been severely emasculated of anything that looks like session tabs.
> > I have at least 15 tabs on 4 of my 10 workspaces here on wheezy, So
> > as yet, I feel like I'm on windows-3.0.
>
> A fraction of the 1% inevitably has something disparaging to say to
> try to take the edge off their initial out-moded choice of boot
> medium.
>
> [snip]
>
> > Config roadblocks are, switching to tde for a desktop, can't find
> > the tools to do that, and getting my email corpus copied across so I
> > have continuity there.  The rest I can probably muddle thru or ask
> > more detailed questions.  And eventually you can quit hassling me to
> > update. :)
>
> Update? You are moving on to buster? Or is that a step too far?

Until Buster is official, thats a step too far. This is my main house 
box.

Thanks.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Apr 02, 2019 at 08:55:52PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> 99% of users write netinstall images to a a USB stick.

Is it really that high?  I still use CDs.  I feel like more than 1% of
us do, but maybe I'm mistaken.

Then again, I don't know how one would accurately measure this.

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Brian]

On Tue 02 Apr 2019 at 14:08:15 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

> Greetings all;

Greetings, old man.
> 
> I have a spindle of memorex  cd-r's, and I've now downloaded and burnt 4 
> copy's of the buster netinstall image to a series of them.

99% of users write netinstall images to a a USB stick. They know 
the technology is reliable and provides a bootable image. The other
1% takes a different path which, very often, involves other people
in some work - like posting to -user.

> But I can't get any of them to boot.
> 
> Does old, these are at least 5 years old, cd'r media go bad?
> 
> However the sha256sum's of both the file and the just burnt /dev/sr0 
> match. This is the 5th burn attempted.
> 
> 4 hours later, it actually booted, so something that looks a teeny bit 
> like stretch is now installed on a different drive.  Hard to tell with 
> gnome for a desktop, and the Konsole available there has  been severely 
> emasculated of anything that looks like session tabs. I have at least 15 
> tabs on 4 of my 10 workspaces here on wheezy, So as yet, I feel like I'm 
> on windows-3.0.

A fraction of the 1% inevitably has something disparaging to say to
try to take the edge off their initial out-moded choice of boot medium.

[snip]
 
> Config roadblocks are, switching to tde for a desktop, can't find the 
> tools to do that, and getting my email corpus copied across so I have 
> continuity there.  The rest I can probably muddle thru or ask more 
> detailed questions.  And eventually you can quit hassling me to 
> update. :)

Update? You are moving on to buster? Or is that a step too far?

-- 
Brian.

Re: old never used memorex cd media

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Gene Heskett wrote:
> Does old, these are at least 5 years old, cd'r media go bad?

Not necessarily. More often a drive loses the ability to work with
media which are still good with other drives.


> However the sha256sum's of both the file and the just burnt /dev/sr0
> match. This is the 5th burn attempted.

And the first 4 CDs did not match ?


> So as yet, I feel like I'm on windows-3.0.

I avoid this effect by staying with fvwm2 and my old configuration from
around year 2000.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas