Re: OT: behaviour (was: Re: ps - complete username)
>Also, how many of us have actually donated to Debian? So, the point, >about casting a 'bad light' on Debian isn't really valid at all -- at >least in my view. If you're not paying, you don't complain. That's the >way I was brought up. Wouldn't You think, the time, I spend here on the list answering postings(more recently) and helping people offline to get their debian systems running is no donation (at least of time) to the debian project? I think, Your attitude is quite common in the linux and unix world as a relict of some former times, where people could be standing there, preteding they were gods and tell anyone trying to get access to their knowledge "work for it or go to hell". That has changed. Almost every family has its own computer and although no one (except those lindows guys) is aiming to bring linux to all of them. But still, the overall goal is to increase the userbase. Just to shortly sum up something rather obvious, increased userbase = increased chance of someone contributing software and als = increased chance of money donation. >Stop being such pussies. We are lucky that folks like S.Keeling and >others, lend their experience to the list, and bother to answer any >questions. I've had a lot of help from people on this list. As it was >pointed out, the OP, didn't even subscribe to the list -- man that shows >some committment, eh? I found man pages difficult to read at first, but >heck after a while, and enough reminders to read them, I actually enjoy >them. I now find myself upset, when a software app, doesn't provide one. Yes, You're right, we have to be grateful for anyone contributing and helping. We should however redefine the success of helping someone. Assume that I get a complete "piss-off" posting containing the answer, what do You think, the mood will be, I'm in? How likely do You think I'm just about to swipe my disk and put back windows on it (assuming I'm a switcher) or purging debian and getting to SuSE or someone else? Assuming I got a real nice posting, suggesting hints in the right direction, maybe none of the hints lead to anything, but at least I get the intention, I was being helped not insulted, what do You think my attitude towards debian (or linux in general) is then? >I'm wondering, if the influx of people from RedHat, are the ones, so >used to having their hands held? I've used RedHat for about two days in my life on my home computer (not being happy with the structure of /etc then) and around 2 months to half a year SuSE. Apart from that and some trials, I've always stuck to debian. (Just if You ask about my record) >Again, there is no PR argument, vis-a-vis having Debian in a so-called >postive light from this list alone. Debian's PR and reputation is in the >quality of the software and the excellent package mgmt tools. > >That's the way I see it... That's the way (as I tried to point out above) it WAS, not it IS. Some years ago, where I live there were hardware shops with the same attitude. At first this was ok, as we, the customers, where afraid, going there like going to church, no eyecontact with the gods, being glad to be yelled at, waiting for abolution for our sins. That has changed and almost all these shops have died because of a lack of customers. The last ones, that still exist, do so, because they changed their attitude. This kind of user attitude is now swapping over to the linux community. You can either be the though guy, telling anyone to whine their way back to linux or try to respect this. As I mentioned earlier, no one is forced to answer any particular question here. When I see questions, asking for something I consider "common knowledge" sometimes I get quite annoyed myself, so i *delete* the message and do not answer them in a way, that could be considered impolite. Often enough I've asked questions in the years behind. Often enough I got answers like "sorry, don't know the solution, but I'm feeling with You" (more or less) and these actually made me feel better, made me look again and not only once made me spot my mistake. js -- Slang is language that takes off its coat, spits on its hands, and goes to work. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: behaviour (was: Re: ps - complete username)
On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 04:46:51PM -0700 or thereabouts, CW Harris wrote: > On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 12:02:06AM +0100, Jonathan Schmitt wrote: > > Hallo, > > although I'm not involved, I was mentally going over the idea of writing back, > > I would like to share some thoughts. > > > > > One last time, You're not forced to answer any posting, if You do and You can > > help (or even get a little bit positive feelingback to the questioner), it's > > a good thing. > > A most *excellent* point. Thanks. Actually I think many of you are missing the point entirely. I won't rehash the statement S.Keeling made (I agree with him), and quite frankly he helps out more than any of the complainers. Anyone is allowed to have an off day (not that he did). But shit, cut the fellow some slack here. Also, how many of us have actually donated to Debian? So, the point, about casting a 'bad light' on Debian isn't really valid at all -- at least in my view. If you're not paying, you don't complain. That's the way I was brought up. Stop being such pussies. We are lucky that folks like S.Keeling and others, lend their experience to the list, and bother to answer any questions. I've had a lot of help from people on this list. As it was pointed out, the OP, didn't even subscribe to the list -- man that shows some committment, eh? I found man pages difficult to read at first, but heck after a while, and enough reminders to read them, I actually enjoy them. I now find myself upset, when a software app, doesn't provide one. I'm wondering, if the influx of people from RedHat, are the ones, so used to having their hands held? Again, there is no PR argument, vis-a-vis having Debian in a so-called postive light from this list alone. Debian's PR and reputation is in the quality of the software and the excellent package mgmt tools. That's the way I see it... -- Steve + Thursday Mar 11 2004 07:58:01 PM EST + A narcissist is someone better looking than you are. -- Gore Vidal pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT - ignore - Re: ps - complete username
Incoming from VEGH Karoly: > > OK, it was'nt clear that I studied the ps manpage before asking. > Even when it's not usual, I do so in most of the cases, before I'd ask. And I'm sorry I sniped at you. Perhaps it could have been handled better; sorry for that. I try to assume the best in people. I give them what I think they need. If I've over-estimated, it's up to them to tell me and then I'll be happy to throttle back. The alternative, assuming everyone's a moron, is distasteful to me and I don't enjoy starting out talking down, or talking baby talk; it's insulting to you. So I give what I think is the answer you need. It's up to you to say it wasn't enough. Ideally, eventually, everyone learns something, right? -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling - - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT - ignore - Re: ps - complete username
OK, sorry, for being OT. OK, it was'nt clear that I studied the ps manpage before asking. Even when it's not usual, I do so in most of the cases, before I'd ask. I read this list for around two years now, asking and helping people. Came here because somewhere I read 'debian-user is sooo friendly'. Yes, sometimes it is, I got sometimes really much help. Did my best as well, if I could, to help ppl on- or offlist. But going on with the list getting my bloodpressure high up to the ceiling, is not worth for me. The so-called helpful big-democratic debian community, where I swore it's the solution. Humans. yuck. YHBT. YHL. HAND. charlie -- Végh Károly - System Engineer - UTA - TIS.SAS.BSS "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." - Jeremy S. Anderson -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: behaviour (was: Re: ps - complete username)
On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 12:02:06AM +0100, Jonathan Schmitt wrote: > Hallo, > although I'm not involved, I was mentally going over the idea of writing back, > I would like to share some thoughts. > One last time, You're not forced to answer any posting, if You do and You can > help (or even get a little bit positive feelingback to the questioner), it's > a good thing. A most *excellent* point. Thanks. -- Chris Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- GNU/Linux --- The best things in life are free. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: behaviour (was: Re: ps - complete username)
Hallo,
although I'm not involved, I was mentally going over the idea of writing back,
I would like to share some thoughts.
>Instead of thinking of it as hostile (I didn't see it that way), think
>of it as a pointer in the right direction. I.e. the info *is* in the man
>page, read carefully.
Yes, You're right, it could be seen as a hint like "You don't waste Your time
looking for the hint". Ever searched for something (info or physically) and
not found it? I for myself sometimes (esp. when I'm in a hurry) get quite
mad. The more I get mad, the less I'm able to read concentrated in a
(sometimes cryptically written) man page. So, this hint might be sent with
good intention, I would take it differently.
Especially as this is a non-standard question, the solution is not THAT
obvious and I think, You could spend some time honestly researching without
getting a result.
>> I normally don't get in a tizzy about such postings, but somehow today,
>> this is just offensive. This list, although not a "Friendly and Helpful
>> Customer Service desk", should be a place to help other users, not
>> offend them and insult their intelligence and prod them along by giving
>> cryptic hints so that they can figure it out themselves.
>
>I don't consider "read carefully" cryptic. It is also appropriate to
>"read carefully" and come back to the list with, "Okay I read carefully,
>but I'm still missing it. Could you give me an example?"
The default should be (and in some cases is) that the man page has been read,
the archives have been searched. The original poster did include info, he
searched through the man page with no result.
>>
>> I urge members of this list to adopt a "Customer Service" attitude. Yes,
>> the same questions get asked over and over, and yes, some questioners
>
>Keep in mind, one can *always* purchase customer support from
>knowledgeable people. Then I would agree one has higher level of
>expectations regarding service. People new to Debian/Linux are also
>*strongly* encouraged to check out linux user groups in their area
>(probably any university will have one).
There is this list regarding debian specific information. It's my free will to
take some time every day going through posts and looking ffor some, I could
answer. No one forces me to do so. So, if I'm doing, I'm representing the
debian community. Like it or not, this list "is" debian for some people -
that is, their perception of debian is dselect + this help. What impression
does it make if such answers happen more often? You (I know, it wasn't You)
don't have to post here, it's Your will but if You choose to do so, alway
remember, You're representing the debian community to someone asking a
question.
In general that behaviour (I tend to call it self-righteous and arrogant) is
it, what makes it so damn hard to communicate to windows using people why
linux isn't that bad after all ("but as soon as You ask a question, You're
doomed").
Many people don't know there are LUGs and some just want to get an idea of
Linux without immediatly spending money. Again, no one is forced to answer
any posting here.
>> are obviously not bright enough to run Debian, and yes, it takes more
>> work on your part, but that's no excuse not to be friendly and courteous
>> and helpful. Be an adult!
>
>I could choose to take that as an insult, but I choose not to. (I'm in a
>pretty good mood today:) Besides, I'm commenting inside your .
I think, the basic idea of the poster You're quoting was, an answer that might
imply "You're to stupid to use debian" is worse than no answer at all.
>> For example, instead of saying "Check the archives then", I believe a
>> better response would have been something like "No offense intended, but
>> the more proper behavior is for you to conform to the standard practice
>> of checking the archives in a situation like this rather than expecting
>> this list to conform to your wishes. You can find the March archives at
>> "http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2004/debian-user-200403/threads.html";.
>>
>> Yes, it takes more work on your part, but it sure makes Debian look
>> better than the terse response does.
>
>Also, remember that the first few times reading man pages, references,
>etc. will be harder. Soon you will become more accustomed to how things
>are written, and get more familiar with the terminology.
I think the one, You're quoting here has some 5 years Debian experience (at
least he wrote that). I would guess, he is quite familiar, so I think, I am.
But there are days, when I'm in a hurry and have no time to look through a
complete man page, that could be long enough to be handy as a hammer, once
printed out. And sometimes, You can read two or three times through such
monster pages and still get no clue where in this thing Your answer is.
>>
>> It doesn't require much more work, still informs the OP that the
>
>That assumes the person had the time to
Re: ps - complete username
Incoming from Kent West: > s. keeling wrote: > > >Incoming from VEGH Karoly: > > > >>s. keeling wrote: > >> > >>>Incoming from VEGH Karoly: > >>> > pls CC: me, I'm currently offlist. > >>> > >>>Check the archives then. > >> > >>wow, friendly. > > > >?!? [snip rant] Augh! Here I am wasting time doing someone else's research FOR FREE, and you're making me feel guilty for doing it! Fine. Here's your easy answer: don't use ps; use top, and in top type "u", then type in the user name. Happy now? Had he been subscribed to the list, he might have seen my mention of this about a week ago. - I resent being told to provide answers to people who can't be bothered to expend an equivalent level of effort. And it is effort, I agree, to subscribe to debian-user. That's why I offered him the option of checking the archives instead. - From his first post, nothing I saw said anything about having even looked at the man page. As I could tell from my look that it ought to be pretty straight forward, I told him the answer was there. - I don't have any blah-blah-blah-blah usernames on my system by which I might test any solutions I proposed. Should I create some to ensure my advice was correct? fsck that! He's the only one in a position to verify correctness. - ps can spit things out in any way you damned well want. Numeric user ID's are _obviously_ the way to go (as the usernames are similar / ambiguous), if not in a "ps -foo" then in a "ps foo | grep $uid" - Instead of replying that he still didn't get it, he came back with a, "hey man, wtf?!?" Oh yes, I'm certainly going to be far more motivated to waste my time to solve his problem after that! -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling - - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ps - complete username
On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 12:40:10PM -0600, Kent West wrote:
> s. keeling wrote:
>
> >Incoming from VEGH Karoly:
> >
> >
> >>s. keeling wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Incoming from VEGH Karoly:
> >>>
> >>>
> pls CC: me, I'm currently offlist.
>
>
> >>>Check the archives then.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>wow, friendly.
No, as in point your web browser at lists.debian.org, then you don't
miss anyone who posts more info and doesn't CC you (someone coming in to
the middle of the thread may not even see your request to CC).
> tomcat- 14137 0.2 0.9 236668 30688 pts/0 S14:37 0:04
> /opt/java/cur
>
> I would like to see the complete username in the ps output.
>
>
> >>>Looking at the ps manpage, I can see a number of ways to get that.
> >>>Select processes by (E)UID, change the output format, ...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>hey man, wtf you think I did up to now?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Do you know the difference between a username and a UID?
> >
> > 1) Read carefully.
> >
> > 2) Think. What you perceive to be null content MAY actually be your
> >answer.
> >
> > 3) You're welcome.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> I _should_ stay out of this . . . .
>
> /Rant
>
> When I first saw the response to the original poster's question, I too
> thought, "Wow! Not very customer-service oriented, is he?" (Of course, I
> realize that this list does not have "Friendly and Helpful Customer
> Service" as its mission, but still, friendly and helpful customer
> service is one way of evangelizing Debian.)
>
> I also thought, "Why doesn't he just give the answer? I'd like the
> answer too."
>
> I even took the time to casually browse "man ps", but since it was mere
> curiosity to know how to do this rather than a need to do so, I quickly
> gave up on it. Wouldn't it have been nice though (and perhaps for other
> lurkers also) to have seen the answer in the reply, so that at least two
> of us would have gotten an education (yes, I know; you're trying to
> educate the original poster to do his own research -- give a man a fish
> yada yada).
Instead of thinking of it as hostile (I didn't see it that way), think
of it as a pointer in the right direction. I.e. the info *is* in the man
page, read carefully.
> I normally don't get in a tizzy about such postings, but somehow today,
> this is just offensive. This list, although not a "Friendly and Helpful
> Customer Service desk", should be a place to help other users, not
> offend them and insult their intelligence and prod them along by giving
> cryptic hints so that they can figure it out themselves.
I don't consider "read carefully" cryptic. It is also appropriate to
"read carefully" and come back to the list with, "Okay I read carefully,
but I'm still missing it. Could you give me an example?"
>
> I urge members of this list to adopt a "Customer Service" attitude. Yes,
> the same questions get asked over and over, and yes, some questioners
Keep in mind, one can *always* purchase customer support from
knowledgeable people. Then I would agree one has higher level of
expectations regarding service. People new to Debian/Linux are also
*strongly* encouraged to check out linux user groups in their area
(probably any university will have one).
Not to be insulting or rude, but I don't know off hand the web page for
looking up LUGs (Linux User Groups), so try Google. :)
> are obviously not bright enough to run Debian, and yes, it takes more
> work on your part, but that's no excuse not to be friendly and courteous
> and helpful. Be an adult!
I could choose to take that as an insult, but I choose not to. (I'm in a
pretty good mood today:) Besides, I'm commenting inside your .
>
> For example, instead of saying "Check the archives then", I believe a
> better response would have been something like "No offense intended, but
> the more proper behavior is for you to conform to the standard practice
> of checking the archives in a situation like this rather than expecting
> this list to conform to your wishes. You can find the March archives at
> "http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2004/debian-user-200403/threads.html";.
>
> Yes, it takes more work on your part, but it sure makes Debian look
> better than the terse response does.
Also, remember that the first few times reading man pages, references,
etc. will be harder. Soon you will become more accustomed to how things
are written, and get more familiar with the terminology.
>
> And a better response about the actual question would have been
> something like this:
>
> >According to "man ps", the "foo" option is what you want, something like:
> > ps -foo -bar
According to "man ps":
NOTES
User-defined format options ("o", "-o", "O", and "-O") offer a way to
specify individual output columns. Headers may be renamed ("ps -o
pid,ruser=RealUser -o comm=Command") as desired. If all column headers
are empty ("ps -o pid= -o comm=")
Re: ps - complete username
s. keeling wrote: Incoming from VEGH Karoly: s. keeling wrote: Incoming from VEGH Karoly: pls CC: me, I'm currently offlist. Check the archives then. wow, friendly. ?!? atsrvlx03:/opt/dev/tomcat# COLUMNS=76 ps aux | grep ^tom tomcat- 14137 0.2 0.9 236668 30688 pts/0 S14:37 0:04 /opt/java/cur I would like to see the complete username in the ps output. Looking at the ps manpage, I can see a number of ways to get that. Select processes by (E)UID, change the output format, ... hey man, wtf you think I did up to now? Do you know the difference between a username and a UID? 1) Read carefully. 2) Think. What you perceive to be null content MAY actually be your answer. 3) You're welcome. I _should_ stay out of this . . . . /Rant When I first saw the response to the original poster's question, I too thought, "Wow! Not very customer-service oriented, is he?" (Of course, I realize that this list does not have "Friendly and Helpful Customer Service" as its mission, but still, friendly and helpful customer service is one way of evangelizing Debian.) I also thought, "Why doesn't he just give the answer? I'd like the answer too." I even took the time to casually browse "man ps", but since it was mere curiosity to know how to do this rather than a need to do so, I quickly gave up on it. Wouldn't it have been nice though (and perhaps for other lurkers also) to have seen the answer in the reply, so that at least two of us would have gotten an education (yes, I know; you're trying to educate the original poster to do his own research -- give a man a fish yada yada). Now the thread has essentially repeated, with the original poster suggesting he's already done some research and didn't find his answer, and you repeating that he hasn't done enough research or isn't smart enough to do it. And again I think, "why doesn't he just give the answer?!" To answer your question about knowing the difference between a username and a UID, "Well, I'm not sure that I do. If I think about it, I guess I do, in that a username is a name, and a UID is a numerical number associated with that username." I've been a Debian user for the past 4 or 5 years, so maybe I should have a more concrete definition in mind. Yet I feel put down, like I'm not worthy of running Debian. I know you don't care how I feel in response to your question, but I'm again wondering what the purpose of your reply was. As the original poster has pointed out, both your responses have failed to answer the question. I normally don't get in a tizzy about such postings, but somehow today, this is just offensive. This list, although not a "Friendly and Helpful Customer Service desk", should be a place to help other users, not offend them and insult their intelligence and prod them along by giving cryptic hints so that they can figure it out themselves. I urge members of this list to adopt a "Customer Service" attitude. Yes, the same questions get asked over and over, and yes, some questioners are obviously not bright enough to run Debian, and yes, it takes more work on your part, but that's no excuse not to be friendly and courteous and helpful. Be an adult! For example, instead of saying "Check the archives then", I believe a better response would have been something like "No offense intended, but the more proper behavior is for you to conform to the standard practice of checking the archives in a situation like this rather than expecting this list to conform to your wishes. You can find the March archives at "http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2004/debian-user-200403/threads.html";. Yes, it takes more work on your part, but it sure makes Debian look better than the terse response does. And a better response about the actual question would have been something like this: According to "man ps", the "foo" option is what you want, something like: ps -foo -bar It doesn't require much more work, still informs the OP that the information he wanted was indeed in the man page, makes him happy, makes lurkers such as myself happy, and increases the overall level/quality of Debian documentation (by the example being archived). /end_of_Rant -- Kent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ps - complete username
Incoming from VEGH Karoly: > > s. keeling wrote: > > > Incoming from VEGH Karoly: > > > > > > pls CC: me, I'm currently offlist. > > > > Check the archives then. > > wow, friendly. ?!? > > > atsrvlx03:/opt/dev/tomcat# COLUMNS=76 ps aux | grep ^tom > > > tomcat- 14137 0.2 0.9 236668 30688 pts/0 S14:37 0:04 /opt/java/cur > > > > > > I would like to see the complete username in the ps output. > > > > Looking at the ps manpage, I can see a number of ways to get that. > > Select processes by (E)UID, change the output format, ... > > hey man, wtf you think I did up to now? Do you know the difference between a username and a UID? 1) Read carefully. 2) Think. What you perceive to be null content MAY actually be your answer. 3) You're welcome. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling - - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ps - complete username
s. keeling wrote: > Incoming from VEGH Karoly: > > > > pls CC: me, I'm currently offlist. > > Check the archives then. wow, friendly. > > atsrvlx03:/opt/dev/tomcat# COLUMNS=76 ps aux | grep ^tom > > tomcat- 14137 0.2 0.9 236668 30688 pts/0 S14:37 0:04 /opt/java/cur > > > > I would like to see the complete username in the ps output. > > Looking at the ps manpage, I can see a number of ways to get that. > Select processes by (E)UID, change the output format, ... hey man, wtf you think I did up to now? have you tried it? If yes, would it have been hard to show it? If not, why do you spam the list with zero-info messages? [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ ps --width 200 --cols 200 --columns 200 -eo euser,tt,user,fuser,euser | fgrep -e tomcat -e devtest | uniq tomcat- ?tomcat- tomcat- tomcat-dev devtest pts/1devtest devtest devtestuser [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ that's imho some column prob, but no idea how to get the first one wider. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ export COLUMNS=300 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ ps --width 300 --cols 300 --columns 300 -eo euser,tt,user,fuser,euser | fgrep -e tomcat -e devtest | uniq tomcat- ?tomcat- tomcat- tomcat-dev devtest pts/1devtest devtest devtestuser [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ charlie -- Végh Károly - System Engineer - UTA - TIS.SAS.BSS "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." - Jeremy S. Anderson -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ps - complete username
Incoming from VEGH Karoly: > > pls CC: me, I'm currently offlist. Check the archives then. > atsrvlx03:/opt/dev/tomcat# COLUMNS=76 ps aux | grep ^tom > tomcat- 14137 0.2 0.9 236668 30688 pts/0 S14:37 0:04 /opt/java/cur > > I would like to see the complete username in the ps output. Looking at the ps manpage, I can see a number of ways to get that. Select processes by (E)UID, change the output format, ... -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling - - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
