Re: scrollbar on left side
On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 21:17, Chris Davies wrote: > Which is why usability testing is (should be) so important. Preferably > at the prototype/design stage rather than as an afterthought just > before release. Dotan Cohen wrote: > Are you kidding? In reference to KDE, at least, I have stopped providing > usability feedback [...] because their "usability expert" or whatever > insists that users cannot report on what they want or need because > they do not understand. I hadn't intended to touch such a sensistive issue! I don't particularly want to get embroiled in a KDE usability issue, if for no other reason than I don't personally use KDE. For website design I can thoroughly recommend Steve Krug's "Don't make me think". But that's now way off-topic. Chris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/qc2hp7xqpt@news.roaima.co.uk
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 21:17, Chris Davies wrote: > Which is why usability testing is (should be) so important. Preferably > at the prototype/design stage rather than as an afterthought just > before release. > Are you kidding? In reference to KDE, at least, I have stopped providing usability feedback (and I have lots of Joe Everyday users from neighbours to fellow students to my mother in law) because their "usability expert" or whatever insists that users cannot report on what they want or need because they do not understand. I'll look up her exact words if you want. I've filed literally tens of usability bugs on KDE (I've filed or triaged over 1500 bugs for KDE altogether) and she closes them with "we're not considering that now" and other such nonsense. What's even funnier is that, independantly of my reporting the issues and having them closed WONTFIX, that some months later the features arrive in KDE from devs from their own accord (such as Windows 7 style window dragging), or the universal app menu. I reported a dozen usability issues on the new KAddressbook alone, all of which were ignored and then the app was release feature-incomplete to users in KDE SC 4.4 "in order to receive wider feedback". I'll happily post bug numbers if anyone is interested. Until they get rid of their "learned Usability in some obsure university" usability expert, or at least until she starts accepting usability concerns from those who have engineering degrees and not "Usability" degrees, I won't be wasting my time reporting KDE usability issues anymore. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinpcxlzpj=env65maukmysznv+s3vk1bj1mm...@mail.gmail.com
Re: scrollbar on left side
Andreas Weber wrote: > And doing GUI programming means that you can do the best you can think > of and there will always be some smart person knowing it better. Which is why usability testing is (should be) so important. Preferably at the prototype/design stage rather than as an afterthought just before release. Chris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/mvobp7xsbe@news.roaima.co.uk
Re: scrollbar on left side
On 10/23/2010 06:44 AM, lee wrote: On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 11:15:52AM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Vi, 22 oct 10, 01:25:28, lee wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 04:34:49PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 10/21/2010 03:48 PM, lee wrote: On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the text moving up together with the scroll bar? Take a piece of construction paper and cut a 2mm slit in it. Now open a book to the middle and put the construction paper on the book's page so that you only see the first few lines. As you pull down the slit, the visible lines appear to move *up* the slit. But who´s reading books like that? We are. Even Superman has to turn pages (he never used his super sight to just read an entire book at once), so his slit is one page big, whereas ours is just a few rows big ;) Even assuming you could comprehend an entire book at once, our view-angle is limited, so we can only look at a limited part of a big text at once. Still we don´t put construction paper with a small slit in it onto the pages of books we´re reading, and the text on the pages isn´t moving. Buy a Kindle... -- Seek truth from facts. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cc30b50.3090...@cox.net
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 11:15:52AM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: > On Vi, 22 oct 10, 01:25:28, lee wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 04:34:49PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > On 10/21/2010 03:48 PM, lee wrote: > > > > > > > >On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when > > > >you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the > > > >text moving up together with the scroll bar? > > > > > > Take a piece of construction paper and cut a 2mm slit in it. > > > > > > Now open a book to the middle and put the construction paper on the > > > book's page so that you only see the first few lines. > > > > > > As you pull down the slit, the visible lines appear to move *up* the > > > slit. > > > > But who´s reading books like that? > > We are. Even Superman has to turn pages (he never used his super sight > to just read an entire book at once), so his slit is one page big, > whereas ours is just a few rows big ;) > > Even assuming you could comprehend an entire book at once, our > view-angle is limited, so we can only look at a limited part of a big > text at once. Still we don´t put construction paper with a small slit in it onto the pages of books we´re reading, and the text on the pages isn´t moving. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101023114415.gf3...@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Vi, 22 oct 10, 01:25:28, lee wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 04:34:49PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: > > On 10/21/2010 03:48 PM, lee wrote: > > > > > >On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when > > >you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the > > >text moving up together with the scroll bar? > > > > Take a piece of construction paper and cut a 2mm slit in it. > > > > Now open a book to the middle and put the construction paper on the > > book's page so that you only see the first few lines. > > > > As you pull down the slit, the visible lines appear to move *up* the > > slit. > > But who´s reading books like that? We are. Even Superman has to turn pages (he never used his super sight to just read an entire book at once), so his slit is one page big, whereas ours is just a few rows big ;) Even assuming you could comprehend an entire book at once, our view-angle is limited, so we can only look at a limited part of a big text at once. Regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 05:22:45PM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 22:03, lee wrote: > > Hi, > > > > is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather > > than on the right side in KDE? > > > > Sure, start the application with the --reverse flag: > $ okular --reverse Cool, thanks! But it also flips the menu and puts it on the right ... This also works for konqueror ... but dolphin is buggy in that it only flips and moves the menu but leaves the scroll bars on the right. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101023001027.gc3...@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 02:55:39PM -0400, Daniel Barclay wrote: > lee wrote: > >On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:39:22PM +0200, Andreas Weber wrote: > >>On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote: > >>>On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when > >>>you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the > >>>text moving up together with the scroll bar? > >> > >>Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves. > > > >Yes, seriously, and I do see the point. You move the text with the > >scrollbar, so why does the text move into the opposite direction of > >the scrollbar? > > Because it models moving a _viewer_ (e.g., the far end of binoculars or > a telescope) down the text rather than moving the _text_ up. > > And the inconsistency causing your "why?" is that the actual viewer > (the viewport drawn on your screen) is not moving, and instead the > text is actually moving up. Yes, and I´m not saying that it isn´t a reasonable assumption that a viewer is being modeled. But when you don´t think around corners and instead just observe what happens on the screen (in the window) when you move the scroll bar down, it doesn´t make sense that the text is moving up. This behaviour is no more than something a lot of ppl are used to, and it could be different. > On http://maps.google.com/, try dragging in the scroller (the smaller > view in the lower right corner) Hm, I don´t have that smaller view. Perhaps it depends on the browser wheather it´s displayed or not. > If dragging in the middle of the text window scrolled the text in > the opposite direction, that really would be confusing and very > backwards. I´m not sure what you mean. Open a PDF with okular and drag in the middle of the text window, and the text will move into the same direction as you move the mouse pointer. Yet the scroll bar moves into the opposite direction. Isn´t that quite backwards and confusing? Otherwise, usually the text is being marked when you drag in the middle of a text window. Useful, but confusing compared to okular. And I´ve quite a few times found it very annoying that okular moves the text rather than that you could mark it so that you can paste it somewhere else, as you can with xpdf. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101023000356.gb3...@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:34:36PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 10/22/2010 09:44 AM, lee wrote: > >On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:24:46PM +0200, Roel Schroeven wrote: > >>lee wrote: > >>>On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:39:22PM +0200, Andreas Weber wrote: > On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote: > >On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when > >you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the > >text moving up together with the scroll bar? > Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves. > >>> > >>>Yes, seriously, and I do see the point. You move the text with the > >>>scrollbar, so why does the text move into the opposite direction of > >>>the scrollbar? > >> > >>Because it doesn't move the text, it moves the viewing window in the text. > > > >The window isn´t moving, it remains at the same place on the > >display. When you move the window, the contents move with it. When you > >move the scrollbar, the contents of the window move. So you can´t > >argue that movement is relative. > > > > I knew that Roel's use of the phrase "viewing window" would confuse > someone. There's more than one use of the word "window". In this case, there isn´t a relevant --- and certainly no obvious --- difference between "viewing window" and (a particular meaning of) "window". Making things more difficult than necessary can sometimes lead to confuse oneself and others. Yet sometimes, it helps proving a point. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101022232509.ga3...@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: scrollbar on left side
lee wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:39:22PM +0200, Andreas Weber wrote: On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote: On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the text moving up together with the scroll bar? Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves. Yes, seriously, and I do see the point. You move the text with the scrollbar, so why does the text move into the opposite direction of the scrollbar? Because it models moving a _viewer_ (e.g., the far end of binoculars or a telescope) down the text rather than moving the _text_ up. And the inconsistency causing your "why?" is that the actual viewer (the viewport drawn on your screen) is not moving, and instead the text is actually moving up. On http://maps.google.com/, try dragging in the scroller (the smaller view in the lower right corner) and then try dragging in the main map, and notice how in one case the map moves in the opposite direction. If dragging in the middle of the text window scrolled the text in the opposite direction, that really would be confusing and very backwards. Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cc1de2b.6050...@fgm.com
Re: scrollbar on left side
On 10/22/2010 09:44 AM, lee wrote: On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:24:46PM +0200, Roel Schroeven wrote: lee wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:39:22PM +0200, Andreas Weber wrote: On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote: On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the text moving up together with the scroll bar? Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves. Yes, seriously, and I do see the point. You move the text with the scrollbar, so why does the text move into the opposite direction of the scrollbar? Because it doesn't move the text, it moves the viewing window in the text. The window isn´t moving, it remains at the same place on the display. When you move the window, the contents move with it. When you move the scrollbar, the contents of the window move. So you can´t argue that movement is relative. I knew that Roel's use of the phrase "viewing window" would confuse someone. There's more than one use of the word "window". -- Seek truth from facts. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cc1cb2c.60...@cox.net
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 22:03, lee wrote: > Hi, > > is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather > than on the right side in KDE? > Sure, start the application with the --reverse flag: $ okular --reverse -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktimglr___v-qyqxuraaj6x0t-ymj=82vh78rk...@mail.gmail.com
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:24:46PM +0200, Roel Schroeven wrote: > lee wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:39:22PM +0200, Andreas Weber wrote: > >> On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote: > >>> On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when > >>> you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the > >>> text moving up together with the scroll bar? > >> Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves. > > > > Yes, seriously, and I do see the point. You move the text with the > > scrollbar, so why does the text move into the opposite direction of > > the scrollbar? > > Because it doesn't move the text, it moves the viewing window in the text. The window isn´t moving, it remains at the same place on the display. When you move the window, the contents move with it. When you move the scrollbar, the contents of the window move. So you can´t argue that movement is relative. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101022144400.gb17...@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: scrollbar on left side
lee wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:39:22PM +0200, Andreas Weber wrote: >> On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote: >>> On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when >>> you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the >>> text moving up together with the scroll bar? >> Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves. > > Yes, seriously, and I do see the point. You move the text with the > scrollbar, so why does the text move into the opposite direction of > the scrollbar? Because it doesn't move the text, it moves the viewing window in the text. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/i9rope$ju...@dough.gmane.org
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Thursday 21 October 2010 15:48:22 lee wrote: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 06:44:50PM +, Camaleón wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:21:43 +0200, lee wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:22:33AM +, Camaleón wrote: > > >> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote: > > >> > is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather > > >> > than on the right side in KDE? > > >> You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps? > > > everywhere > > Ugh... then dunno. > > It was promised years ago for KDE 4.x to be able to finally put the > scroll bar on the left ... As I mentioned in my other message in this thread, there may be a KDE theme that draws the scrollbar on the left, but I can't find one on my system. There were some other scrollbar-related configuration in the Oxygen theme, but no scrollbar-on-left checkbox. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 10:04:35PM +, Camaleón wrote: > > > > It was promised years ago for KDE 4.x to be able to finally put the > > scroll bar on the left ... > > There is even an old bug report for that matter: > > *** > scrollbars on left > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4549 > *** > > Now KDE4 depends on Qt 4 for rendering the whole desktop (widgets, > gadgets, windows...) so it should be implemented there (Qt libraries). > Not sure what is the status for this :-? Hm, did you see comment #5? "Currently, Qt only positions scrollbars on the left with RTL languages." Now the question is how to make it put the scrollbars on the left without having to write from left to right, since scrollbars on the left appear to be supported already? I´ll have to experiment with that tomorrow ... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101021233842.gg13...@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:10:27 -0400 Wayne Topa wrote: > On 10/20/2010 06:25 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: ... > > [u]rxvt is the only app I've seen where the scrollbar is on the left. > > > > Konsole lets you put the scrollbar on either side. As does Xfce Terminal. Celejar -- foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101021152333.bd39f74b.cele...@gmail.com
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:39:22PM +0200, Andreas Weber wrote: > On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote: > > On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when > > you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the > > text moving up together with the scroll bar? > > Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves. Yes, seriously, and I do see the point. You move the text with the scrollbar, so why does the text move into the opposite direction of the scrollbar? You have a good point though that the bar indicates the position and behaves like that. But this isn´t so obvious --- or call it counter intuitve ... > > Scrollbars are a good idea, but surprisingly, their implementation > > hasn´t been thought out more than half way at best. Why is that? > > One started and this is how it is today. Yes, I know, but it´s still amazing that it is still like that. They keep changing how the input devices for the console and X11 are configured all the time, but you can´t even configure the scrollbars yet. Once could conclude that these things are still at alpha stages ;) > Do more vi at the console, it'll teach you to get rid of that > trackball which is a bad habit anyway. Na, emacs is so much better than vi ... ;) Seriously, vi is probably great, but I never could bring myself to learn it. And emacs has the scrollbar on the left, so why bother with vi? :P -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101021233442.gf13...@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 04:34:49PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 10/21/2010 03:48 PM, lee wrote: > [snip] > > > >On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when > >you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the > >text moving up together with the scroll bar? > > Take a piece of construction paper and cut a 2mm slit in it. > > Now open a book to the middle and put the construction paper on the > book's page so that you only see the first few lines. > > As you pull down the slit, the visible lines appear to move *up* the > slit. Good answer :)) But who´s reading books like that? > >Scrollbars are a good idea, but surprisingly, their implementation > >hasn´t been thought out more than half way at best. Why is that? > > > > Because you're inflexible? I´m not responsible for the implementation. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101021232528.ge13...@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:48:22 +0200, lee wrote: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 06:44:50PM +, Camaleón wrote: >> >> You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps? >> > >> > everywhere >> >> Ugh... then dunno. > > It was promised years ago for KDE 4.x to be able to finally put the > scroll bar on the left ... There is even an old bug report for that matter: *** scrollbars on left https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4549 *** Now KDE4 depends on Qt 4 for rendering the whole desktop (widgets, gadgets, windows...) so it should be implemented there (Qt libraries). Not sure what is the status for this :-? >> I know there are applications that let the user to select where to put >> the scrollbar > > Yes, some do, and I have set the scroll bar to left whereever I could. > The ones that remain on the right side are all the more annoying. > >> > The scrollbar belongs on the left side, not on the right side ... >> >> Under what "locale"? :-) > > That shouldn´t matter since it´s personal preference. If I was reading > and writing from right to left instead of from left to right and if I > was using the trackball with my right hand, I might eventually want the > scrollbars on the right side. In that case, I might have placed my > monitor on the right side of my desk instead of on the left side and > would be leaning to left in my chair rather than to the right ... Yes, I agree. It should be user configurable. > But as things are, I´m writing/reading left to right and use the > trackball with my left. Naturally, the scrollbars have to be on the left > side and not on the right side. --- Do you think I could change lokale > to something that has scrollbars on the left but doesn´t change anything > else? I'm not sure... but it's worth a try to play with them (use another account to avoid messing up your current user profile). For example, setting LANG to one of the right to left languages and keeping the rest of the "locales" as they should. > Scrollbars are a good idea, but surprisingly, their implementation > hasn´t been thought out more than half way at best. Why is that? (...) To be sincere, KDE has been always one of the most customizable desktops out there, I'm surprised it does not allow the user to choose the location (or even direction!) of the vertical/horizontal scrollbars. KDE has always been very flexible in this aspect. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.10.21.22.04...@gmail.com
s/2mm/2cm (was Re: scrollbar on left side)
On 10/21/2010 04:34 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: On 10/21/2010 03:48 PM, lee wrote: [snip] On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the text moving up together with the scroll bar? Take a piece of construction paper and cut a 2mm slit in it. -- Seek truth from facts. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cc0b5a9.4020...@cox.net
Re: scrollbar on left side
On 2010-10-21 22:48, lee wrote: > On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when > you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the > text moving up together with the scroll bar? Seriously? It indicates the position in the document, and so it behaves. > Scrollbars are a good idea, but surprisingly, their implementation > hasn´t been thought out more than half way at best. Why is that? One started and this is how it is today. It may have had a reason in the beginning, and now the vast majority is used to it. This doesn't mean it makes any sense. If everything was sense driven, we (still: the majority) wouldn't use QWERT keyboards anymore. And doing GUI programming means that you can do the best you can think of and there will always be some smart person knowing it better. Asking 5 people will give you 7.5 opinions, depending on the weather mostly I guess. ;-) Do more vi at the console, it'll teach you to get rid of that trackball which is a bad habit anyway. ändu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cc0b30a.3050...@worldwideweber.ch
Re: scrollbar on left side
On 10/21/2010 03:48 PM, lee wrote: [snip] On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the text moving up together with the scroll bar? Take a piece of construction paper and cut a 2mm slit in it. Now open a book to the middle and put the construction paper on the book's page so that you only see the first few lines. As you pull down the slit, the visible lines appear to move *up* the slit. Scrollbars are a good idea, but surprisingly, their implementation hasn´t been thought out more than half way at best. Why is that? Because you're inflexible? -- Seek truth from facts. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cc0b1f9.2040...@cox.net
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 06:44:50PM +, Camaleón wrote: > On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:21:43 +0200, lee wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:22:33AM +, Camaleón wrote: > >> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote: > >> > >> > is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather > >> > than on the right side in KDE? > >> > >> You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps? > > > > everywhere > > Ugh... then dunno. It was promised years ago for KDE 4.x to be able to finally put the scroll bar on the left ... > I know there are applications that let the user to select where to put > the scrollbar Yes, some do, and I have set the scroll bar to left whereever I could. The ones that remain on the right side are all the more annoying. > > The scrollbar belongs on the left side, not on the right side ... > > Under what "locale"? :-) That shouldn´t matter since it´s personal preference. If I was reading and writing from right to left instead of from left to right and if I was using the trackball with my right hand, I might eventually want the scrollbars on the right side. In that case, I might have placed my monitor on the right side of my desk instead of on the left side and would be leaning to left in my chair rather than to the right ... But as things are, I´m writing/reading left to right and use the trackball with my left. Naturally, the scrollbars have to be on the left side and not on the right side. --- Do you think I could change lokale to something that has scrollbars on the left but doesn´t change anything else? I probably can´t explain it, but to give you an analogy: Having the scroll bars on the right side is worse than having to cross your arms all the time when using the trackball/mouse or the keyboard ... When you look at the gauges you have in your car, are they on the passenger side or on the driver side? Having the scroll bars on the right makes about as much sense as having those gauges on the passenger side. (And I´m sitting on the left side of the car and drive on the right side of the road. If there were scroll bars in cars, they´d have to be on the left side, of course ...) On a side note: Someone once asked me why the text is moving up when you move the scrollbar down. Where´s the logic in that? Why isn´t the text moving up together with the scroll bar? Scrollbars are a good idea, but surprisingly, their implementation hasn´t been thought out more than half way at best. Why is that? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101021204822.ga13...@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: scrollbar on left side
For KDE I don't know. For other applications like xterm or rxvt it can be customized with X-settings, e.g., in ~/.Xdefaults XTerm*scrollBar:True XTerm*rightScrollBar: True XTerm*scrollBar_right: True URxvt*scrollBar:True URxvt*scrollBar_right: True The emacs editor has its own config-file where one can set (cond (window-system (set-scroll-bar-mode 'right))) For gnome-applications the search for "scrolled-window-placement" results in a setting in ~/.gtkrc-2.0 gtk-scrolled-window-placement = top-right -- Best regards, Jörg-Volker. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/i9pbp6$tp...@dough.gmane.org
Re: scrollbar on left side
On 10/20/2010 11:14 PM, jeremy jozwik wrote: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: Neither did I, when I read the man page... :) ok, so gnome-term has an profile option for it, and iceweasel has a config value for it. there are no global ui changes that can be made then for scroll bars on the left side? I guess that depends on your DE/WM. Gnome certainly does *not*; KDE probably does, buried somewhere, and Xfce may. -- Seek truth from facts. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cbfc21b.3090...@cox.net
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: > Neither did I, when I read the man page... :) ok, so gnome-term has an profile option for it, and iceweasel has a config value for it. there are no global ui changes that can be made then for scroll bars on the left side? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktimqeun7dypdptnitqugj_ogwan_pynq=qzcd...@mail.gmail.com
Re: scrollbar on left side
On 10/20/2010 10:49 PM, jeremy jozwik wrote: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=man+gnome-terminal yah yah yah, i still dont see where or how gnome terminal will change all application scroll bars to the left side. Neither did I, when I read the man page... :) gnome-terminal only has 15 options, and two are variants of "help". [u]rxvt, though, has 70, and is a subset of xterm. -- Seek truth from facts. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cbfbb10.7080...@cox.net
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: > http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=man+gnome-terminal yah yah yah, i still dont see where or how gnome terminal will change all application scroll bars to the left side. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktikyzajlwve3k9t-_cmz_oy1r6vcwhmwuww2y...@mail.gmail.com
Re: scrollbar on left side
On 10/20/2010 08:12 PM, jeremy jozwik wrote: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: man gnome-terminal? at work without access to my debian machine http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=man+gnome-terminal -- Seek truth from facts. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cbfaada.3010...@cox.net
Re: scrollbar on left side
On 10/20/2010 06:25 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: On 10/20/2010 01:21 PM, lee wrote: On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:22:33AM +, Camaleón wrote: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote: is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather than on the right side in KDE? You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps? everywhere The scrollbar belongs on the left side, not on the right side ... [u]rxvt is the only app I've seen where the scrollbar is on the left. When Linux puts the scrollbar on the left side, without a means of moving it back where it _really_ belongs, on the right, I will abandon it completely! (I thought this thread was in Ubuntu, where the windows controls are on the wrong side! But you _can_ move them.) --doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A. M. Greeley -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cbf9a50.8060...@optonline.net
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:12 PM, jeremy jozwik wrote: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: >> man gnome-terminal? and i dont think anyone asked for only gnome-terminal scroll bar placement -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktindrah_d-f-9=mo05fz7sqmpiuhjn2u5vd12...@mail.gmail.com
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: > man gnome-terminal? at work without access to my debian machine -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktim-+udddgwmxu-90d8bos6fu_uafgx=btdoc...@mail.gmail.com
Re: scrollbar on left side
On 10/20/2010 07:52 PM, jeremy jozwik wrote: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Wayne Topa wrote: Konsole lets you put the scrollbar on either side. WT how about gnome? im a lefty As am I, but decades ago I accepted that I'm in the minority and adapted to the circumstances. with a tablet pc and this would be a handy tweak for me. man gnome-terminal? -- Seek truth from facts. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cbf903a.9040...@cox.net
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Wayne Topa wrote: > Konsole lets you put the scrollbar on either side. > > WT how about gnome? im a lefty with a tablet pc and this would be a handy tweak for me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktikysmekqqu8bhgnf0cgmwf5f2v4u9m6_zjaz...@mail.gmail.com
Re: scrollbar on left side
On 10/20/2010 06:25 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: On 10/20/2010 01:21 PM, lee wrote: On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:22:33AM +, Camaleón wrote: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote: is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather than on the right side in KDE? You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps? everywhere The scrollbar belongs on the left side, not on the right side ... [u]rxvt is the only app I've seen where the scrollbar is on the left. Konsole lets you put the scrollbar on either side. WT -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cbf84f3.9030...@gmail.com
Re: scrollbar on left side
On 10/20/2010 01:21 PM, lee wrote: On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:22:33AM +, Camaleón wrote: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote: is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather than on the right side in KDE? You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps? everywhere The scrollbar belongs on the left side, not on the right side ... [u]rxvt is the only app I've seen where the scrollbar is on the left. -- Seek truth from facts. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cbf6c3f.6080...@cox.net
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:21:43 +0200, lee wrote: > On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:22:33AM +, Camaleón wrote: >> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote: >> >> > is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather >> > than on the right side in KDE? >> >> You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps? > > everywhere Ugh... then dunno. I know there are applications that let the user to select where to put the scrollbar or that automatically change the positition if they are loaded using a LANG environment variable configured for right to left reading (like Hebrew, maybe? :-?). > The scrollbar belongs on the left side, not on the right side ... Under what "locale"? :-) In mine (Spanish) is on the right. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.10.20.18.44...@gmail.com
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:22:33AM +, Camaleón wrote: > On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote: > > > is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather than > > on the right side in KDE? > > You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps? everywhere The scrollbar belongs on the left side, not on the right side ... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101020182143.gf3...@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: scrollbar on left side
In <20101018200323.gf3...@yun.yagibdah.de>, lee wrote: >is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather >than on the right side in KDE? Not on my system. Presumably, this would be part of "System Settings -> General -> Appearance -> Style". In fact, there are some scrollbar-related options under "Applications -> Configure..." depending on the style. I currently have the styles: CDE, Cleanlooks, GTK+, MS Windows 9x, Motif, Oxygen, Phase, and Plastique. I could not find a scrollbar-on-the-left setting on any of these and these doesn't appear to be a KGHNS button for styles, so I'm not sure the best way to install any alternative styles. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: scrollbar on left side
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:03:23 +0200, lee wrote: > is there finally a way to get the scrollbar on the left side rather than > on the right side in KDE? You mean in the whole KDE environment or just in some apps? Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.10.19.11.22...@gmail.com
