Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
D-Man wrote: On Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 05:29:42PM -0700, Phil Murphy wrote: | | Unless I convert my 486-sx to Debian, I'll never see those great | uptimes I see posted. :) I may do that just because I can. 486-sx, | 24 megs, should run properly I would assume. 24MB RAM!! It should run great, I think. I have an old 486sx here with only 8MB RAM. It thrashes a lot. apt-get upgrade takes longer to install the packages than to download them over a 33.6K modem! Any ideas on where I can find some RAM for it? It only has 2 slots, so I need to get some relatively large SIMMS. -D I bought 32MB for my 486DX4 at Office Max a few months ago. I think I paid something like $40-$50 for the 32MB SIMM. It's currently running FreeBSD very well. -- Morgan Terry [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is easier to move a problem around (for example, by moving the problem to a different part of the overall network architecture) than it is to solve it. --RFC 1925
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 09:17:45PM -0400, D-Man ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 05:29:42PM -0700, Phil Murphy wrote: | | Unless I convert my 486-sx to Debian, I'll never see those great | uptimes I see posted. :) I may do that just because I can. 486-sx, | 24 megs, should run properly I would assume. 24MB RAM!! It should run great, I think. I have an old 486sx here with only 8MB RAM. It thrashes a lot. apt-get upgrade takes longer to install the packages than to download them over a 33.6K modem! Any ideas on where I can find some RAM for it? It only has 2 slots, so I need to get some relatively large SIMMS. SIMMs, IIRC. They're getting pretty expensive, though you might be able to find 'em used (buy extra in case of bad chips) pretty inexpensively. Test 'em hard (memtest is your friend). -- Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.comhttp://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of Gestalt don't you understand? There is no K5 cabal http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ http://www.kuro5hin.org pgpdtdcjk02F2.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: what i've learned, and explanation.
As a newcomer to Debian, although more experienced in other distros, I think this is a wonderful idea. I have been dabbling in LInux for about a year or so, have tried Mandrake, RedHat, Phat, Peanut, Caldera, Progeny Beta, etc. (about a dozen!), but am really interested in becoming more aware of what is happening internally, and have been playing with Debian for about 2 months. I initially installed with only CD1, and then tried some other distros yet again, and have now installed with 3 CDs. I'm hooked! Especially after my first apt-get update, apt-get upgrade! I upgraded 26 packages on a 56k modem in about 1 hour, and it went flawlessly. I am still struggling though with things such as compiling sound, getting my printer to work, etc., so a help file like the one proposed would be really useful. This list is an incredible source of info, and I have already had answers to some questions, both my own posted ones, and ones that others posted but that were of help to me. I am gradually moving over to be as MS free as possible, but will still require a dual-boot due to family and some software requirements. Unless I convert my 486-sx to Debian, I'll never see those great uptimes I see posted. :) I may do that just because I can. 486-sx, 24 megs, should run properly I would assume. Thanks for the time, the great proposal, and to all the developers, for what looks like the best distro yet! (once you get it installed grin ) Actually, the only trouble installing was an unrecognized SVGA card, Diamond Viper v550 AGP, but I worked in the second terminal, and installed xserver-svga, and all was well. :) Phil Murphy Nanaimo, BC, Canada Registered Linux User 197338 Yamaha XS1100 SG P.S. a Dharryl! Conas tá tú? Is Pilib Ó Murchú anseo (aka Farside) - Original Message - From: Rob Mahurin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Glyn Millington [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com; debian-user@lists.debian.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 11:01 AM Subject: Re: what i've learned, and explanation. X_Operating_System: Debian GNU/Linux (potato), powered by Linux 2.2.16 System_Uptime: 11:12am up 75 days, 21:30, 2 users, load average: 1.53, 1.12, 1.04 X-Unnecessary-Clutter: Please ignore this header. I apologize for the inconvenience. Resent-Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org X-Mailing-List: debian-user@lists.debian.org archive/latest/143617 X-Loop: debian-user@lists.debian.org Precedence: list Resent-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-scanner: Scanned by Nisa EPOscan v2.20 (www.nisa.net) On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 09:05:43AM +0100, Glyn Millington wrote: Seems to me that there is a problem for real newcomers with the docs - for the very reasons that make them so useful to those who know their way around a little. So much variety, so little time. What might help is a daily post to the list with a subject line NEW TO LIST? READ THIS!! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.248 / Virus Database: 121 - Release Date: 11/04/01
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
On Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 05:29:42PM -0700, Phil Murphy wrote: | | Unless I convert my 486-sx to Debian, I'll never see those great | uptimes I see posted. :) I may do that just because I can. 486-sx, | 24 megs, should run properly I would assume. 24MB RAM!! It should run great, I think. I have an old 486sx here with only 8MB RAM. It thrashes a lot. apt-get upgrade takes longer to install the packages than to download them over a 33.6K modem! Any ideas on where I can find some RAM for it? It only has 2 slots, so I need to get some relatively large SIMMS. -D
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, D-Man wrote: Any ideas on where I can find some RAM for it? It only has 2 slots, so I need to get some relatively large SIMMS. You might have some luck with ComputerGeeks.com, they have some decent prices on RAM and other used hardware. I've bought from them quite a few times, and I've always gotten good service from them. They also pack RAM very well for shipping, unlike computersurplusoutlet.com - I ordered four sticks of RAM from them and they mailed them in an unpadded envelope. Oh, they also get bonus points for listing hardware that's Linux-compatible... You'll find their RAM here: http://www.compgeeks.com/products.asp?cat=RAM Take care, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 43599611 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Liberty's too precious a thing to be buried in books... Men should hold it up in front of them every single day of their lives and say: I'm free to think and to speak. My ancestors couldn't, I can, and my children will. Boys ought to grow up remembering that. Mr. Smith Goes to Washington -- James Stewart
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
On Thursday 12 April 2001 06:20 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Of course, we will have more and more people coming from the other paradigm, where there's absolutely no sense of community. Sometimes it may take an act of kindness on our part to get the ball rolling. Like I said, maybe I missed part of the thread, because apparently Karsten tried to do this. For this, he should be commended. he has been. (i think we've stroked him enough that he'll still help out us poor sots now and again.) Please do! http://newbieDoc.sourceForge.net/ I've taken a peek at this and it looks really cool, and I'd like to get involved and perhaps discuss this with you further via email. Of course, I won't be able to do that if I'm in your killfile. ;) you're not. i just enjoy making hollow threats to the world at large. that is, until i'm in the elitist clique. then i'll just close my inbox and look down my nose at all those emails bouncing off my server. heh, heh. I used to be in charge of the FirstStep section for Linux.com, where my (volunteer) job was to write and find documentation that new users could understand. So, I think I could make some decent contributions to your project. In fact, maybe I could convert some of my articles to DocBook and add them to the project. I'd love to discuss this with you further. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] It sounds like we're actualy more or less on the same page. From what you've said, I was mistaken in singling out Mr. Self as an example of the elitism that I've grown to despise, and I hope he'll accept my humble and sincere apologies. Perhaps I've gotten the wrong impression of him, or you probably came in after round five where mr. petulant still didn't see his approach was all wrong, and karsten was trying to upbraid him just a tad. (the weenie was using the you do it, i won't method, instead of the more proper do it now, dammit, i want it now, dammit method.) missed out on something vital in the earlier thread. Unfortunately circumstances today have me fired up (not a good excusse, but yet I offer it anyway). I'm normally a rather meek guy that lurks about on the list, and answers a question or two here and there. Perhaps I should go back to doing that. =] well you seem like an okay joe (but i reserve the right to recall the witness, out of spite). :)
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
On Thu, 12 Apr 2001, kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote: Second. This isn't win/lose. It's live/learn. How true! So in that spirit, how did you set up that four-stroke kill file ? ;-) Sounds really useful. Seems to me that there is a problem for real newcomers with the docs - for the very reasons that make them so useful to those who know their way around a little. So much variety, so little time. What might help is a daily post to the list with a subject line NEW TO LIST? READ THIS!! containing some basic advice on how to ask for help and on one or two basic resources (like man foo and apropos foo). Not knowing how to ask seems a recurring problem that often sparks the kind of debate we've just seen. I'd gladly do this if it seemed good to whom ? But with only a dial up connection and occasional holidays the output might be somewhat sporadic. Worth pursuing? Glyn -- so here we are then http://members.tripod.co.uk/Christchurch2000uk Running Debian/Gnu Linux 8:49am up 1:05, 2 users, load average: 0.04, 0.03, 0.07
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
will trillich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:16:50PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 4) Don't make any requests unless you can help to carry them out yourself. (By that logic, I can't report bugs in Apache, since I can't fix them, and I shouldn't request documentation unless I have the time to write it). Needs some fine-tuning... how about: DON'T make any DEMANDS, EXPECTING to be entitled to someone else's time or attention; and unless you're WILLING TO RECIPROCATE, don't even expect others to volunteer theirs to help you. After all, why should they? Mmm. You see two extremes of bug reports if you trawl through the bug tracking system a bit. There are the ones every maintainer likes: ones that calmly describe what happened, what the surrounding bits of their system looked like, what the maintainer needs to do to reproduce the bug. At the other extreme, there are the reports that go my system broke! What the hell did you think you were doing! You're obviously a clueless weenie, etc., etc. Frankly, the latter tend just to get closed without paying much attention to them, as life's too short, and if you do that often enough you're liable to get ignored all the time. However, people who don't waste time with rants about how pathetic the maintainer is will often find that bug reports are welcomed. It doesn't matter if you can't fix the bug yourself; that's what the maintainer signed up for anyway. What matters is giving the maintainer enough information to know what's wrong, and what he/she can do about it. That doesn't require a great deal in the way of technical skills (it's often just following instructions), but all the same it's helping. You don't have to send patches to be helpful (not that it isn't nice when people do). I'll repeat Karsten's endorsement of Simon Tatham's How to Report Bugs Effectively (http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html), which says this and much more, and is a lot more entertainingly written to boot. Applying this to documentation, all the documentation is useless has to be filed in the bit-bucket, because there's nothing else you can do. Where would you start? However, I had trouble doing foo, maybe I managed to work it out and here's what I did, if someone who knows what I really should have done could write it up properly it'd be great is much closer to what helps the documentation people do their job well. When i started with Debian i sent a few what the hell am i supposed to do now flares to debian-user, and apparently i didn't do it quite right, because most of them still respond to me. :) Heh, I remember it well. :) -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... read for those who have little familiarlity with Linux. Personally, I don't think either of those resources were of any help to me until I was at least 3 months in, and I had a pretty solid background in general computing concepts, and the willingness to spend a lot of time reading this stuff. how long did it take you to learn to readwrite? were books helpful since the beginning? some things are just not simple and take some time... (and yes, some things in linux are unneccessarily complicated) I guess my point is that people who just brush off requests for help and say, the man pages and HOWTOs should be good enough, are avoiding the nobody said that. everybody ackowledged that the documentation needs work... (just like the rest of the linux) erik
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 09:05:43AM +0100, Glyn Millington wrote: What might help is a daily post to the list with a subject line NEW TO LIST? READ THIS!! How about something automatically sent to anyone who subscribes to the list(s), ONCE, not every day? And make the lists only subscribers can post? -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] I-Con's Science and Technology Programming http://www.iconsf.org/
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
CF And make the lists only subscribers can post? Please don't. IMHO mailists with 'only subscribers can post' policy is very unfriendly. At least it so for maillists which are aimed to provide support for users. Probably it can be OK for maillists like debian-devel but not for debian-user. Many users here need only get question on their answers and do not need to subscribe to list. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- | Ilya Martynov (http://martynov.org/)| | GnuPG 1024D/323BDEE6 D7F7 561E 4C1D 8A15 8E80 E4AE BE1A 53EB 323B DEE6 | | AGAVA Software Company (http://www.agava.com/) | -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
Carl Fink wrote: On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 09:05:43AM +0100, Glyn Millington wrote: What might help is a daily post to the list with a subject line NEW TO LIST? READ THIS!! How about something automatically sent to anyone who subscribes to the list(s), ONCE, not every day? And make the lists only subscribers can post? I don't know. I think it's nice for people to be able to occasionally post a question with out being subscribed. This is a really high traffic list and some people may not want all those e-mails. later, dixon
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
CF And make the lists only subscribers can post? IM Please don't. IMHO mailists with 'only subscribers can post' policy is IM very unfriendly. At least it so for maillists which are aimed to IM provide support for users. Probably it can be OK for maillists like IM debian-devel but not for debian-user. Many users here need only get IM question on their answers and do not need to subscribe to list. ^^^ Stupid typo. Should be 'answer on their questions' of course :) -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- | Ilya Martynov (http://martynov.org/)| | GnuPG 1024D/323BDEE6 D7F7 561E 4C1D 8A15 8E80 E4AE BE1A 53EB 323B DEE6 | | AGAVA Software Company (http://www.agava.com/) | -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 09:05:43AM +0100, Glyn Millington wrote:
Seems to me that there is a problem for real newcomers with the docs -
for the very reasons that make them so useful to those who know their way
around a little. So much variety, so little time.
What might help is a daily post to the list with a subject line
NEW TO LIST? READ THIS!!
containing some basic advice on how to ask for help and on one or two
basic resources (like man foo and apropos foo). Not knowing how to
ask seems a recurring problem that often sparks the kind of debate we've
just seen.
I'd gladly do this if it seemed good to whom ? But with only a
dial up connection and occasional holidays the output might be somewhat
sporadic.
Worth pursuing?
I think this is a wonderful idea and I'd love to help out. I would
suggest that instead of a daily post, this FAQ should be included in
the confirmation that you get when you subscribe to the list, or
perhaps sent as a second message at the same time; I've copied this
post to [EMAIL PROTECTED] to ask if this is feasible.
I imagine the following format:
--- begin hypothetical message ---
Subject: Frequently Asked Questions on debian-user
You have subscribed to debian-user, the general discussion forum for
the Debian GNU/Linux community. This list is read by thousands of
Debian users and developers and typically generates about a hundred
messages a day. It is also mirrored as the newsgroup [blah] and
archives are available at [blah].
There is no official technical support for Debian as there is for
commercial software; this list is about as close as anything gets.
The people who read this list are mostly ordinary users who like to
help people figure out problems. This means that if you ask a vague
question (e.g., Why doesn't sound work? Please hurry, it's urgent!)
you probably won't get much help --- although you will more than
likely get a request for a more detailed message.
This document is designed to help you ask good questions. Your
question has a greatly increased chance of getting a useful answer if
it:
o indicates that you have read the relevant documentation, or at
least tried to (section 1);
o is precise about the problem, including model numbers of relevant
hardware, the exact output of error messages, software version
numbers, etc. (section 2);
o [follows some other advice ...]
o is polite :)
To that end, the rest of this document has the following structure:
1. How to Find (and Understand) Documentation
1.1 Figuring Out the Name of a Command
apropos
[tab][tab]
... ?
1.2 Figuring Out How to Use a Command
man
info
/usr/doc/
READMEs
... ?
1.3 Installation Documentation [should perhaps be first?]
URLs
files on the CD-ROM
... ?
1.4 More General Documentation
LDP /usr/doc/HOWTO/
1.5 ...?
2. How to Ask A Good Specific Question
2.1 Copy the Exact Text of Error Messages!!!
2.2 Identifying Software
foo --version, man foo, dpkg {-S,-L,--status} foo, ... ?
2.3 Identifying Hardware
find the manual, contact the manufacturer (phone or
web), open the case look at the numbers, ... ?
2.4 ... ?
--- end of hypothetical message ---
Please comment.
Rob
--
Q: Know what the difference between your latest project
and putting wings on an elephant is?
A: Who knows? The elephant *might* fly, heh, heh...
RE: what i've learned, and explanation.
i'm pro ! great teamwork people :) -Original Message- From: Carl Fink [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: vrijdag 13 april 2001 19:26 To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: what i've learned, and explanation. On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 09:05:43AM +0100, Glyn Millington wrote: What might help is a daily post to the list with a subject line NEW TO LIST? READ THIS!! How about something automatically sent to anyone who subscribes to the list(s), ONCE, not every day? And make the lists only subscribers can post? -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] I-Con's Science and Technology Programming http://www.iconsf.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 02:01:24PM -0400, Rob Mahurin wrote: | On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 09:05:43AM +0100, Glyn Millington wrote: | Seems to me that there is a problem for real newcomers with the docs - | for the very reasons that make them so useful to those who know their way | around a little. So much variety, so little time. | | What might help is a daily post to the list with a subject line | NEW TO LIST? READ THIS!! ... | Worth pursuing? | | I think this is a wonderful idea and I'd love to help out. I would | suggest that instead of a daily post, this FAQ should be included in | the confirmation that you get when you subscribe to the list, or | perhaps sent as a second message at the same time; Ditto. The list has enough volume as it is without adding an extra mail every day. Sending it to new subscribers (or on-demand) sounds like a good idea. I would also recommend making it fairly easy to find on the signup/archive web pages. | I imagine the following format: | | --- begin hypothetical message --- ... I think this sounds like a great start. I would recommend changing the opening paragraph some. When I sign up with a list I don't always want to read a long message with lots of boring details sent to me automatically by the list manager (ie marjordomo giving you its manpage). To get people to actually read it the opening paragraph should have some sort of catching statement to grab the reader's attention in it. Maybe something like : Read this before posting -- it may solve your problems for you. or If you don't read this before posting you are likely to get flamed and very little help. | -- | Q:Know what the difference between your latest project | and putting wings on an elephant is? | A:Who knows? The elephant *might* fly, heh, heh... grin -D
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
To that end, the rest of this document has the following structure:
1. How to Find (and Understand) Documentation
1.1 Figuring Out the Name of a Command
apropos
[tab][tab]
... ?
1.2 Figuring Out How to Use a Command
man
info
/usr/doc/
READMEs
... ?
1.3 Installation Documentation [should perhaps be first?]
URLs
files on the CD-ROM
... ?
1.4 More General Documentation
LDP /usr/doc/HOWTO/
1.5 ...?
2. How to Ask A Good Specific Question
2.1 Copy the Exact Text of Error Messages!!!
2.2 Identifying Software
foo --version, man foo, dpkg {-S,-L,--status} foo, ... ?
2.3 Identifying Hardware
find the manual, contact the manufacturer (phone or
web), open the case look at the numbers, ... ?
2.4 ... ?
--- end of hypothetical message
_Exactly_ what I had in mind - but the title needs to be something really
unsubtle like
HOW TO ASK FOR HELP..
Glyn
--
so here we are then
http://members.tripod.co.uk/Christchurch2000uk
Running Debian/Gnu Linux
9:30pm up 7:19, 3 users, load average: 0.70, 0.64, 0.35
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 03:33:13PM -0400, D-Man wrote: Ditto. The list has enough volume as it is without adding an extra mail every day. Sending it to new subscribers (or on-demand) sounds like a good idea. I would also recommend making it fairly easy to find on the signup/archive web pages. Yes, of course. I meant to mention a link on the web page but forgot. I like the idea of on-demand sending, as well (mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -s 'faq me' /dev/null ?) I would recommend changing the opening paragraph some. When I sign up with a list I don't always want to read a long message with lots of boring details sent to me automatically by the list manager (ie marjordomo giving you its manpage). Yeah, I wrestled with that. I think any kind of informative document about this list would have to mention its high volume and that there are other ways to read it. My exposure to capitalism made me phrase it in a marketing-friendly way (read by thousands). Perhaps If you can't handle this many messages, you can also follow the list at [blah] would make that point better. To get people to actually read it the opening paragraph should have some sort of catching statement to grab the reader's attention in it. Maybe something like : Read this before posting -- it may solve your problems for you. or If you don't read this before posting you are likely to get flamed and very little help. The first I like. The second I think is tainted by the flavor of this thread; we want new subscribers to think we're nice folks :). | -- | Q: Know what the difference between your latest project | and putting wings on an elephant is? | A: Who knows? The elephant *might* fly, heh, heh... grin Random .signature generators are funny things sometimes, aren't they? This one isn't nearly as good. Rob -- [...] or some clown changed the chips on a board and not its name. (Don't laugh! Look at the SMC etherpower for that.) -- from /usr/src/linux/MAINTAINERS
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1) Don't respond to mail when you're already in a poor mood. Always good advice. I wish I followed it more, but I do queue outgoing messages in my mailer by default, so I normally have a bit of cooling-off time. 2) In fact, don't respond to mail at all if you're going to be expressing your opinion, unless you've got some homies on the Debian list who will back you. I'd suggest that isn't true, but it helps to have a thick skin and be just as opinionated back. 4) Don't make any requests unless you can help to carry them out yourself. (By that logic, I can't report bugs in Apache, since I can't fix them, and I shouldn't request documentation unless I have the time to write it). There's a difference between making requests and acting entitled to help. This whole thing started because of a comment that said, in essence, Documentation is an easily-correctable problem, so go out and fix it or you're all a bunch of elitists. We _all_ know there could be better documentation. We _all_ have been hearing about it for what, over six years in my case?[1] After a while, even the most patient people will get a bit testy at hearing the same demands over and over again. Good documentation isn't easy. Ask the people at the LDP about it, who have been working on good documentation longer than I've been using Linux. It's hard. There's insane amounts of stuff to document, programs often do the same thing different ways for historical reasons, and things change all the time. It's hard work, and having someone come around and say Come on guys, it's easy, you must just not care enough is infuriating. Right now, Linux is not for everyone. That's a simple fact. If you[2] can't pick things up from existing resources[3] for whatever reason, you should probably use something else. This isn't an attack! It's an acknowledgment that not everyone may have the time or inclination to deal with Linux in its current form, and no amount of effort will make Linux suitable overnight. Come back in a year or two... Linux will still be around, and things may have gotten better. If I were an illustrator, I probably wouldn't waste my time trying to do my work on Linux. If I were editing movies digitally, I'd probably use something else right now. This isn't an attitude of 'You're dumb or lazy or both'. It's an attitude of Here's the situation as it stands, and only you know what's best for you. All I really wanted to say with my original post was, give this guy a break, and at least explain things nicely to him. I think Karsten tried. Kevin came in ranting, Karsten tried to put things in perspective (as I did above) and Kevin just kept on ranting Footnotes: [1] No DSW intended, just illustrating that this isn't a new problem. [2] Not implying _you_ specifically, this is a generic you. [3] Books, man pages, HOWTOs, Deja, lists, etc -- Alan Shutko [EMAIL PROTECTED] - In a variety of flavors! Skydiver: A guy whose talks fall flat...
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
On Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 05:09:06PM -0400, Alan Shutko wrote: There's a difference between making requests and acting entitled to help. Well, it sort of depends on what you want Linux to be. If you want it to become something that's easily accessible to all, because you feel that everyone is entitled to a free, stable OS, then people are entitled to things like nice documentation, even if they're not able to help out. IF you want to keep Linux as an OS for those who have the time (and I mean LOTS of time) to figure out how to use it, then no, they aren't entitled to easy-to-understand docs. I'm not saying that either one is correct - there are people on both sides of the fence, each with valid points. I tend to lean towards the former. This whole thing started because of a comment that said, in essence, Documentation is an easily-correctable problem, so go out and fix it or you're all a bunch of elitists. We _all_ know there could be better documentation. We _all_ have been hearing about it for what, over six years in my case?[1] After a while, even the most patient people will get a bit testy at hearing the same demands over and over again. Good documentation isn't easy. Ask the people at the LDP about it, who have been working on good documentation longer than I've been using Linux. It's hard. There's insane amounts of stuff to document, programs often do the same thing different ways for historical reasons, and things change all the time. It's hard work, and having someone come around and say Come on guys, it's easy, you must just not care enough is infuriating. Granted. Right now, Linux is not for everyone. That's a simple fact. If you[2] can't pick things up from existing resources[3] for whatever reason, you should probably use something else. This isn't an attack! It's an acknowledgment that not everyone may have the time or inclination to deal with Linux in its current form, and no amount of effort will make Linux suitable overnight. Come back in a year or two... Linux will still be around, and things may have gotten better. Also granted. I heartily agree, Linux is not for everyone in its current incarnation, but it could be. I mean, if you've been seeing requests for good docs for 6 whole years, that's probably because there haven't been any for those six years, and people may wonder if things are going to change within a couple more years. I think it was JWZ who said, Linux is only free if you don't place a value on your time. (or something to that effect) I think we're sort of in the situation where people say, Well, I had to suffer through the man pages, so you have to as well. I mean, let's get a few things out in the open. Man pages can be very tough to learn from. They're great if you need a reference on command line options and such, but that's about it. HOWTOs can also be difficult to read for those who have little familiarlity with Linux. Personally, I don't think either of those resources were of any help to me until I was at least 3 months in, and I had a pretty solid background in general computing concepts, and the willingness to spend a lot of time reading this stuff. I guess my point is that people who just brush off requests for help and say, the man pages and HOWTOs should be good enough, are avoiding the weighty issues surrounding documentation (the ones you mentioned above). Not that I am not referring to you or Mr. Self, just making a statement. This isn't an attitude of 'You're dumb or lazy or both'. It's an attitude of Here's the situation as it stands, and only you know what's best for you. Well, the subject of Mr. Self's email was should lazy, dumb people be allowed to use Linux... So I would beg to differ. But perhaps that's not what he really meant. Anyway, like I said, I think it comes down to that basic question: What do you believe? Do you believe everyone is entitled to a free, stable OS regardless of their ability to contribute to it, or should Linux always be something that is only usable if you have the time and skills necessary? It's a good question, and there are valid points on both sides. Unfortunately I tend to be frustrated by those on the more elitist and up the spectrum, and I finally vented (albeit in the wrong forum). All I really wanted was for a sane discussion to ensue, like the one we are having now. Of course, making inflammatory statements doesn't help. Oh well, at least I can admit I made a mistake. Tom
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyway, like I said, I think it comes down to that basic question: What do you believe? Do you believe everyone is entitled to a free, stable OS regardless of their ability to contribute to it, or should Linux always be something that is only usable if you have the time and skills necessary? Other important questions are: * Specifically, _what_ are people entitled to? Are they entitled to demand that I spend my time catering to their needs? Are they entitled to be rude while doing it? Are they entitled to be rude in demanding that I spend my time catering to them when they have no plans of contributing in any way? * Are there any people who are entirely without ability to contribute? A good, clear bug report is just as valuable as code, because it can point out where things are going wrong. A user who is completely new to an application can point out things which are overly obtuse, or gaps in the manual. Cookies or a kind word are also valuable contributions (especially with lots of chocolate chips). If someone is willing to contribute, but completely unable to (if that's possible), I would feel no qualms about helping them in any way I could. Someone who is able to contribute in some way, but unwilling, will get passed over by me (or maybe flamed if I'm in a bad mood). So I believe that Linux should be not be limited by time or skills, but should be limited by attitude. (Or maybe not even attitude... just that help and energies won't be directed at people who are obnoxious.) I think that's entirely reasonable. -- Alan Shutko [EMAIL PROTECTED] - In a variety of flavors! Life is not for everyone.
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
On Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 02:24:42PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Anyway, like I said, I think it comes down to that basic question: What do you believe? Do you believe everyone is entitled to a free, stable OS regardless of their ability to contribute to it, or should Linux always be something that is only usable if you have the time and skills necessary? Read carefully what you wrote. Having time and skills necessary and being entitled to [whatever] regardless of ability to contribute is apples and Mozart. I'll have both, and large fries with that, thanks. Dima (oh, and belief has nothing to do with it) -- E-mail dmaziuk at bmrb dot wisc dot edu (@work) or at crosswinds dot net (@home) http://www.bmrb.wisc.edu/descript/gpgkey.dmaziuk.ascii -- GnuPG 1.0.4 public key Well, lusers are technically human. -- Red Drag Diva in ASR
Re: Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
A good, clear bug report is just as valuable as code, because it can point out where things are going wrong. A user who is completely new to an application can point out things which are overly obtuse, or gaps in the manual. This is good-- but one thing I've run into as the rankest of newbies is not knowing if some problem is a genuine bug or just my ignorance at work. As for gaps in documentation, I've asked for help, having read some documentation, only to find there is more, better doc somewhere else. It can be difficult to know when one's exhausted the possibilities before resorting to the mailing list. This is *not* in the spirit of a kvetch, BTW. I agree with the Linux will strengthen you if it doesn't kill you camp.
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
Having dealt with Lusers for far longer than I care to think about I'm going to go ahead and give some opnions on the subject. Other important questions are: * Specifically, _what_ are people entitled to? Are they entitled to demand that I spend my time catering to their needs? Are they entitled to be rude while doing it? Are they entitled to be rude in demanding that I spend my time catering to them when they have no plans of contributing in any way? The sad and simple fact are yes people do in fact think that. Many of them can not understand that on the lists, IRC or whatever that we are just a bunch of people who do this stuff cause we really do love it. Therefore many of them treat us the way that they treat their sys admins and support people. That is with the attitude fix my stuff, don't make me think or learn I just want it to work and to workt the way I think it should. Then they wonder why things never seem to happen as fast as it should *evil grin*. The simple fact is these people do not understand why techies (using that term in as broad a possible sense)are the way we are. They simply can not understand why we would want the exact wording of an error that means nothing to them. They are very concrete thinkers because the error means nothing to them it must mean nothing to everybody and because they know something everybody must know it. Just like a person today who was shocked and pissed off that I could not restore a file that had been on a HD that the hardware guys had taken away. In any case it comes down to the fact that these people never learn to think, reason, or imagine. I thought I had a point but it turned into a rant. It has been a long week at work. Sorry and thanks. :)
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
On Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:16:50PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, ok, I give up. For what's it's worth, here's what I have learned from the day's events: 2) In fact, don't respond to mail at all if you're going to be expressing your opinion, unless you've got some homies on the Debian list who will back you. People know Karsten, and they don't know me, so he wins by default. Actually, he wins by reputation. much of his mail here -- from what i've scanned across -- is in answering, suggesting, directing, pointing, helping. When i see him actually ASK a question i scramble like the dickens to see if i can find the answer. (I think i managed, once. Hopefully if he reads this he'll be all the more eager to save my butt from the sling, next time... :) Folks like Karsten have a crip of homeys here BECAUSE they help, or try to. Some help with an attitude, some do it with humor, some do it in the afternoon. Those who help others gain homey points. (Okay, everyone whose buns were kept from the fire by pointers from Karsten and other such elitists, raise a cheek...) Expect two to four months of aaugh! Ever since the lobotomy i can't figure anything out before you can start helping others here. (Your spouse will hate it nearly as much as you do.) Once you get past the i feel lobotomized stage, you can answer others' questions, and then you'll start getting misguided comments like ...what a great explanation... ...you're a powerful wizard... ...wow, i never knew that... from people who don't know any better. :) 4) Don't make any requests unless you can help to carry them out yourself. (By that logic, I can't report bugs in Apache, since I can't fix them, and I shouldn't request documentation unless I have the time to write it). Needs some fine-tuning... how about: DON'T make any DEMANDS, EXPECTING to be entitled to someone else's time or attention; and unless you're WILLING TO RECIPROCATE, don't even expect others to volunteer theirs to help you. After all, why should they? 5) It's ok to make disparaging remarks about people if they're clueless Windows users (who come from a totally different paradigm than Linux users), but it's not ok to make disparaging remarks at those who get after these clueless users. Correction: it's only okay to make disparaging remarks about windo~1 and the effects it has on people. :) 6) Appearing to be a bit of an elitist and bashing clueless Windows users are good ways to gain popularity in the community. Actually, they're only good ways to entertain other elitists. The way to gain points in this community is by helping the moronic, halitosis-ridden, clueless dredges of the windo~1 community become productive members of society. We were all newbies ourselves once. Personally I've been using Linux for a couple years, and I've done a hell of a lot of research on my own to get things working properly. I didn't have anyone to help me. I also came from a Windows background, and I recognize the vast differences in the Windows and Linux communities. Because I remember what it was like to be a newbie, I want to help others who still don't quite know what Linux is all Please do! http://newbieDoc.sourceForge.net/ about. Telling people that you're adding them to a killfile because you don't like their sense of community != a good way to get new community members. Maybe you don't really care if more people start using Debian, but I do, because of what a great experience it has been for me. We s/We/I/ don't add folks to the killfile because of a difference in 'sense of community'. I only add folks to my killfile if they're not elite enough. When i started with Debian i sent a few what the hell am i supposed to do now flares to debian-user, and apparently i didn't do it quite right, because most of them still respond to me. :) After a few gentle spanks from some, others with more patience guided me in the right direction and i'm feeling much better now. Seriously, this rant-and-rave fest was from a guy who wanted better documentation. I agree, we do need better documentation. So i've joined at http://newbiedoc.sourceforge.net/ and i'm working on learning a whole new spaghetti bowl of sgml just so someone else, tomorrow, maybe, might not have some of the troubles i did. (Are you elite with sgml? I have some questions...) Compare that with you folks need to apportion your time better; not so much new software, but better docs on the software we've got! Chop chop, let's get busy. THAT's when we try to set him straight (we're all volunteers here, you can be too) and he said so sorry, i have better things to do with my time. And THEN -- being elitist -- we PLONK him. -- americans should never read anything so subversive as what's at http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2001/03/21/spring/index1.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sourceforge.net/projects/newbiedoc -- we need your brain!
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
On Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 05:47:07PM -0500, will trillich wrote: Expect two to four months of aaugh! Ever since the lobotomy i can't figure anything out before you can start helping others here. (Your spouse will hate it nearly as much as you do.) Once you get past the i feel lobotomized stage, you can answer others' questions, and then you'll start getting misguided comments like ...what a great explanation... ...you're a powerful wizard... ...wow, i never knew that... from people who don't know any better. :) Actually, I've been lucky enough to get this myself a few times, having lurked about the lists for a year or two, and having written some articles posted here and there. =] You're right, it's neat. 4) Don't make any requests unless you can help to carry them out yourself. (By that logic, I can't report bugs in Apache, since I can't fix them, and I shouldn't request documentation unless I have the time to write it). Needs some fine-tuning... how about: DON'T make any DEMANDS, EXPECTING to be entitled to someone else's time or attention; and unless you're WILLING TO RECIPROCATE, don't even expect others to volunteer theirs to help you. After all, why should they? In spirit I agree with you, and I wish everyone were willing to contribute something back (and I've even written editorials to this effect). I didn't detect anything really demanding in his email, but I might have missed part of the thread, so I can't comment on that. Sometimes it takes an initial gesture in order to show people what community is all about. That's sort of how it worked for me. So many people were willing to help me and yet wanted nothing in return - well, it made me want to give something back all the more. Yes, I do get irked my those who demand I help them but don't seem even remotely interested in becoming a real part of the community. Of course, we will have more and more people coming from the other paradigm, where there's absolutely no sense of community. Sometimes it may take an act of kindness on our part to get the ball rolling. Like I said, maybe I missed part of the thread, because apparently Karsten tried to do this. For this, he should be commended. 5) It's ok to make disparaging remarks about people if they're clueless Windows users (who come from a totally different paradigm than Linux users), but it's not ok to make disparaging remarks at those who get after these clueless users. Correction: it's only okay to make disparaging remarks about windo~1 and the effects it has on people. :) Fine by me. =] 6) Appearing to be a bit of an elitist and bashing clueless Windows users are good ways to gain popularity in the community. Actually, they're only good ways to entertain other elitists. The way to gain points in this community is by helping the moronic, halitosis-ridden, clueless dredges of the windo~1 community become productive members of society. I'm all for doing that, too. We were all newbies ourselves once. Personally I've been using Linux for a couple years, and I've done a hell of a lot of research on my own to get things working properly. I didn't have anyone to help me. I also came from a Windows background, and I recognize the vast differences in the Windows and Linux communities. Because I remember what it was like to be a newbie, I want to help others who still don't quite know what Linux is all Please do! http://newbieDoc.sourceForge.net/ I've taken a peek at this and it looks really cool, and I'd like to get involved and perhaps discuss this with you further via email. Of course, I won't be able to do that if I'm in your killfile. ;) I used to be in charge of the FirstStep section for Linux.com, where my (volunteer) job was to write and find documentation that new users could understand. So, I think I could make some decent contributions to your project. In fact, maybe I could convert some of my articles to DocBook and add them to the project. I'd love to discuss this with you further. It sounds like we're actualy more or less on the same page. From what you've said, I was mistaken in singling out Mr. Self as an example of the elitism that I've grown to despise, and I hope he'll accept my humble and sincere apologies. Perhaps I've gotten the wrong impression of him, or missed out on something vital in the earlier thread. Unfortunately circumstances today have me fired up (not a good excusse, but yet I offer it anyway). I'm normally a rather meek guy that lurks about on the list, and answers a question or two here and there. Perhaps I should go back to doing that. =] /me slinks back to his grimy corner of the web... Tom
Re: what i've learned, and explanation.
on Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 01:16:50PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
wrote:
Ok, ok, I give up. For what's it's worth, here's what I have learned from
the day's events:
1) Don't respond to mail when you're already in a poor mood.
Excellent advice. I should have followed it myself.
I did consider strongly before sending my post (note: the title is
drawn from Kevin's comments themselves, not that this excuses anything,
but I can go all petulant and whine but he started it), but succumbed
to temptation. Wanted to see a hornet's nest. Did. Also had a message
or two to impart, hope I managed to do so.
2) In fact, don't respond to mail at all if you're going to be expressing
your opinion, unless you've got some homies on the Debian list who will
back you. People know Karsten, and they don't know me, so he wins by
default.
First, thanks to the fan club. There's times things do get moderately
bleak in life, and it's nice to know someone appreciates you. Really.
And my apologies to those who're already tired of this thread
Second. This isn't win/lose. It's live/learn.
Third. It's that rep thing. As I said, it's worth something. Mind, I
did do a scan on Tom's email address, and found a handful of sensible
posts. You're not evil, Tom. At least not pure evil.
Fourth. Tom's right about something: I'm an ass. When I want to be,
I'm a major ass. It's a cultivated skill (more below). It's also
generally tacticly deployed. I try to be an ass with a point -- getting
a message across, as I said. I guess that makes me a pointy ass instead
of one of those fashionably tight, rounded ones, c'est la vie.
3) Many Linux users are full of technical skills, but lacking people
skills. (This was basically what I was told in one reply) Sad, but
apparently true. I should just accept this and move on.
Despite appearances, I've been told by people, not under the influence
of drugs, threats, sleep deprivation, or other forms of coercion, that I
can be delightfully charming, if the mood strikes.
A friend of mine, Rick Moen ('nother interesting character, BTW), notes
that a gentleman is never _unintentionally_ rude to someone. Likewise.
I will, however, be intentionally rude if I'm given no quarter, but only
to the limited extent necessary. Might even take pleasure in it -- it's
a honed skill.
4) Don't make any requests unless you can help to carry them out
yourself. (By that logic, I can't report bugs in Apache, since I
can't fix them, and I shouldn't request documentation unless I have
the time to write it).
Not entirely true, Tom.
Kevin had two faults. One was excessive, _persistent_, petulance. Note
that he's *still* coming 'round swinging -- quit while you're behind,
Kev, unless you're just trolling (which was my initial thought on
reading your first post).
A single round is OK. Insistence is boorish.
The other was his unwillingness to carry any weight, let alone his own.
I don't see free software support as being handholding and crutch-
dispensing to all comers. It's a bit of clue-distribution to those
who've gotten stuck.
If you're going to use and exploit GNU/Linux extensively (beyond, say,
sanitized, package, appliance-type products) you ultimately:
- Have to be at least partially self-sufficient.
- Shell out Real Money® for some Real Support®.
- Or you are better of using another tool that comes with paid-in
support.
IMVAO: freeloaders not wanted.
5) It's ok to make disparaging remarks about people if they're clueless
Windows users (who come from a totally different paradigm than Linux
users), but it's not ok to make disparaging remarks at those who get
after these clueless users.
No. And if you're referring to my own comments, you're grossly
misrepresenting them. Ignorance isn't a crime. Petulance is.
6) Appearing to be a bit of an elitist and bashing clueless Windows users
are good ways to gain popularity in the community.
Nope.
We were all newbies ourselves once. Personally I've been using Linux
for a couple years, and I've done a hell of a lot of research on my
own to get things working properly. I didn't have anyone to help me.
I also came from a Windows background, and I recognize the vast
differences in the Windows and Linux communities. Because I remember
what it was like to be a newbie, I want to help others who still don't
quite know what Linux is all about. Telling people that you're adding
them to a killfile because you don't like their sense of community !=
a good way to get new community members. Maybe you don't really care
if more people start using Debian, but I do, because of what a great
experience it has been for me.
Agreed.
I've been using Unix for nearly fifteen years, GNU/Linux for four. I am
*still* learning things, daily, and have plenty of blond moments. What
I *don't* do, though, is walk into a group and either criticize without
basis
