Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.

[Curt]

On 2019-08-10, Richard Hector  wrote:
>
> Similarly, one of our local fuel stations has (or had) vouchers that say
> things like '10c per litre off every litre of fuel' - which also quickly
> gets into trouble if taken literally :-)

You mean that would mean 20c off the second litre and 30c off the third,
and so on, or something else?

I really don't know. It seems 'every litre of fuel' is where the phrase
goes wrong and that part could profitably be deleted, leaving simply:
'10c per litre off.'

Anyway, whoever wrote that must've been gassed (so to speak).


> Richard
>
>

-- 
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” 
― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.

[mick crane]

On 2019-08-10 23:44, Richard Hector wrote:

On 11/08/19 3:06 AM, David Wright wrote:

On Sat 10 Aug 2019 at 21:19:31 (+1200), Richard Hector wrote:

On 10/08/19 9:10 PM, deloptes wrote:

Richard Hector wrote:



Sorry, this usage grates with me.

$amount cheaper that $price means subtract $amount from $price

$x times $price means multiply $price by $x

so "2 times cheaper (than $450)" is:

$450 - (2 x $450) = -$450.


so what multiplied  by 2 gives 450?

450 is  100% or 1
225 is  50%  or 1/2


Right, so 225 is 50% cheaper, or half cheaper. Not twice cheaper.

perhaps this is the confusion, cause we are using daily language to 
refer to

maths.


Daily language is the problem, yes. I'm not saying my fight is an 
easy

one :-)


In fact I would do it the other way around.

initial price   x
1xtime  x+(1*x)
2xtimes x+(2*x)

this gives x=150


450 is two times more expensive than 150 (or 200% more than), or 
three

times as expensive as 150 (or 300% as expensive).
300 is two times as expensive as 150, or 100% more expensive than 150

We know that these don't work symmetrically; if you have a 50% 
discount,
you can't get the original price back by adding 50%, because it's 50% 
of

a different number.


"Expensive" is a dimensional term, like length and time. "Cheap" is in
a different category, like shortness. A 6-inch nail is twice as long
as a 3-inch nail, but one doesn't say the latter is twice as short.


Agreed. I prefer to avoid multipliers with inverted dimension terms 
like

that.


But if someone asked for a nail twice as short as this (holding up a
6-inch nail), you might assume they were a non-native speaker of
English, or you might notice you're almost twice as tall as they are:
ie it's a child. (And it would be polite to offer them a 3-inch
nail. Learning all the categories takes time, and some people might
have slightly different boundaries.)


I wouldn't assume that; it's a common usage, even though I consider it
wrong :-)  A bit like the American habit of saying "I could care less",
which also doesn't mean what they mean it to mean :-)


It's pretty obvious that Reco's meaning for cheapness was meant to be
understood as a reciprocal cost and not as a discount. It might be a
legitimate idiom in some parts; who knows.


Agreed. And many would consider it a 'legitimate idiom'. I personally
consider that from a linguistic and mathematical perspective, it 
doesn't

make sense.


One hears stories of pedants insisting they be paid to carry goods out
of the shop because they were labelled "10x cheaper". No way Jos??.


I haven't actually insisted on that, but I've certainly thought it :-)

Similarly, one of our local fuel stations has (or had) vouchers that 
say
things like '10c per litre off every litre of fuel' - which also 
quickly

gets into trouble if taken literally :-)

Richard



sysadmin types have got *way* too much time on their hands.

=o)

mick
--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.

[Richard Hector]

On 11/08/19 3:06 AM, David Wright wrote:
> On Sat 10 Aug 2019 at 21:19:31 (+1200), Richard Hector wrote:
>> On 10/08/19 9:10 PM, deloptes wrote:
>>> Richard Hector wrote:
>>>
 
 Sorry, this usage grates with me.

 $amount cheaper that $price means subtract $amount from $price

 $x times $price means multiply $price by $x

 so "2 times cheaper (than $450)" is:

 $450 - (2 x $450) = -$450.
>>>
>>> so what multiplied  by 2 gives 450? 
>>>
>>> 450 is  100% or 1
>>> 225 is  50%  or 1/2
>>
>> Right, so 225 is 50% cheaper, or half cheaper. Not twice cheaper.
>>
>>> perhaps this is the confusion, cause we are using daily language to refer to
>>> maths.
>>
>> Daily language is the problem, yes. I'm not saying my fight is an easy
>> one :-)
>>
>>> In fact I would do it the other way around.
>>>
>>> initial price   x
>>> 1xtime  x+(1*x)
>>> 2xtimes x+(2*x)
>>>
>>> this gives x=150
>>
>> 450 is two times more expensive than 150 (or 200% more than), or three
>> times as expensive as 150 (or 300% as expensive).
>> 300 is two times as expensive as 150, or 100% more expensive than 150
>>
>> We know that these don't work symmetrically; if you have a 50% discount,
>> you can't get the original price back by adding 50%, because it's 50% of
>> a different number.
> 
> "Expensive" is a dimensional term, like length and time. "Cheap" is in
> a different category, like shortness. A 6-inch nail is twice as long
> as a 3-inch nail, but one doesn't say the latter is twice as short.

Agreed. I prefer to avoid multipliers with inverted dimension terms like
that.

> But if someone asked for a nail twice as short as this (holding up a
> 6-inch nail), you might assume they were a non-native speaker of
> English, or you might notice you're almost twice as tall as they are:
> ie it's a child. (And it would be polite to offer them a 3-inch
> nail. Learning all the categories takes time, and some people might
> have slightly different boundaries.)

I wouldn't assume that; it's a common usage, even though I consider it
wrong :-)  A bit like the American habit of saying "I could care less",
which also doesn't mean what they mean it to mean :-)

> It's pretty obvious that Reco's meaning for cheapness was meant to be
> understood as a reciprocal cost and not as a discount. It might be a
> legitimate idiom in some parts; who knows.

Agreed. And many would consider it a 'legitimate idiom'. I personally
consider that from a linguistic and mathematical perspective, it doesn't
make sense.

> One hears stories of pedants insisting they be paid to carry goods out
> of the shop because they were labelled "10x cheaper". No way José.

I haven't actually insisted on that, but I've certainly thought it :-)

Similarly, one of our local fuel stations has (or had) vouchers that say
things like '10c per litre off every litre of fuel' - which also quickly
gets into trouble if taken literally :-)

Richard



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.

[David Wright]

On Sat 10 Aug 2019 at 21:19:31 (+1200), Richard Hector wrote:
> On 10/08/19 9:10 PM, deloptes wrote:
> > Richard Hector wrote:
> > 
> >> 
> >> Sorry, this usage grates with me.
> >>
> >> $amount cheaper that $price means subtract $amount from $price
> >>
> >> $x times $price means multiply $price by $x
> >>
> >> so "2 times cheaper (than $450)" is:
> >>
> >> $450 - (2 x $450) = -$450.
> > 
> > so what multiplied  by 2 gives 450? 
> > 
> > 450 is  100% or 1
> > 225 is  50%  or 1/2
> 
> Right, so 225 is 50% cheaper, or half cheaper. Not twice cheaper.
> 
> > perhaps this is the confusion, cause we are using daily language to refer to
> > maths.
> 
> Daily language is the problem, yes. I'm not saying my fight is an easy
> one :-)
> 
> > In fact I would do it the other way around.
> > 
> > initial price   x
> > 1xtime  x+(1*x)
> > 2xtimes x+(2*x)
> > 
> > this gives x=150
> 
> 450 is two times more expensive than 150 (or 200% more than), or three
> times as expensive as 150 (or 300% as expensive).
> 300 is two times as expensive as 150, or 100% more expensive than 150
> 
> We know that these don't work symmetrically; if you have a 50% discount,
> you can't get the original price back by adding 50%, because it's 50% of
> a different number.

"Expensive" is a dimensional term, like length and time. "Cheap" is in
a different category, like shortness. A 6-inch nail is twice as long
as a 3-inch nail, but one doesn't say the latter is twice as short.

But if someone asked for a nail twice as short as this (holding up a
6-inch nail), you might assume they were a non-native speaker of
English, or you might notice you're almost twice as tall as they are:
ie it's a child. (And it would be polite to offer them a 3-inch
nail. Learning all the categories takes time, and some people might
have slightly different boundaries.)

It's pretty obvious that Reco's meaning for cheapness was meant to be
understood as a reciprocal cost and not as a discount. It might be a
legitimate idiom in some parts; who knows.

One hears stories of pedants insisting they be paid to carry goods out
of the shop because they were labelled "10x cheaper". No way José.

Cheers,
David.

Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.

[Richard Hector]

On 10/08/19 9:10 PM, deloptes wrote:
> Richard Hector wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Sorry, this usage grates with me.
>>
>> $amount cheaper that $price means subtract $amount from $price
>>
>> $x times $price means multiply $price by $x
>>
>> so "2 times cheaper (than $450)" is:
>>
>> $450 - (2 x $450) = -$450.
> 
> so what multiplied  by 2 gives 450? 
> 
> 450 is  100% or 1
> 225 is  50%  or 1/2

Right, so 225 is 50% cheaper, or half cheaper. Not twice cheaper.

> perhaps this is the confusion, cause we are using daily language to refer to
> maths.

Daily language is the problem, yes. I'm not saying my fight is an easy
one :-)

> In fact I would do it the other way around.
> 
> initial price   x
> 1xtime  x+(1*x)
> 2xtimes x+(2*x)
> 
> this gives x=150

450 is two times more expensive than 150 (or 200% more than), or three
times as expensive as 150 (or 300% as expensive).
300 is two times as expensive as 150, or 100% more expensive than 150

We know that these don't work symmetrically; if you have a 50% discount,
you can't get the original price back by adding 50%, because it's 50% of
a different number.

Richard



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.

[deloptes]

Richard Hector wrote:

> 
> Sorry, this usage grates with me.
> 
> $amount cheaper that $price means subtract $amount from $price
> 
> $x times $price means multiply $price by $x
> 
> so "2 times cheaper (than $450)" is:
> 
> $450 - (2 x $450) = -$450.

so what multiplied  by 2 gives 450? 

450 is  100% or 1
225 is  50%  or 1/2

perhaps this is the confusion, cause we are using daily language to refer to
maths. 

In fact I would do it the other way around.

initial price   x
1xtime  x+(1*x)
2xtimes x+(2*x)

this gives x=150

The problem is in the comparison - when you read the characteristics of the
devices, there are couple of differences that can not be neglected, but I
agree 400 is too much. I think fair price for such a device would be in
200-300 range, what we also see for the Lynksis router.

OT "x times cheaper", was: Re: Server hardware advice.

[Richard Hector]

On 10/08/19 6:20 AM, Reco wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 01:16:49PM -0400, Celejar wrote:

>> When you say five times cheaper, I gather you're talking about the
>> prices for used units, in which case it's not really an
>> apples-to-apples comparison. At least when I checked, the new units on
>> Amazon start at $190.
> 
> I stand corrected. It's two times cheaper for new ones.


Sorry, this usage grates with me.

$amount cheaper that $price means subtract $amount from $price

$x times $price means multiply $price by $x

so "2 times cheaper (than $450)" is:

$450 - (2 x $450) = -$450.





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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Steven Mainor]

I bought a turris omnia router recently and so far it has worked out pretty 
well. 
--
Steven Mainor

On August 9, 2019 12:59:34 PM EDT, Reco  wrote:
>On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 06:16:21PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
>> John Hasler wrote:
>> 
>> >  Steven Mainor writes:
>> >  > It looks like there are some ESPRESSOBIN v7s on Amazon right
>now.
>> > 
>> > Excellent.  When I looked yesterday Amazon said "None available". 
>I
>> > think I'll order one today.  The ancient Dell I'm now using as a
>> > router/firewall is getting flaky.  I've wanted to replace it some
>time
>> > but I want something ARM-based.  This is the first suitable board
>I've
>> > seen that has dual ethernet.  I'll stick it in a box along with the
>> > modem, the switch, and a power supply.
>> 
>> This one was very appealing 
>>
>https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91=acrosser=1561237800=gateway=8-11
>
>$430 for a router? Surely you're kidding.
>
>This one is five times cheaper *and* it can run Debian or openwrt:
>
>https://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Dual-Band-Wireless-Gigabit-WRT1200AC/dp/B00UVN20T0/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=linksys+wrt+1200=1565369861=gateway=8-2
>
>Reco

Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Bob Crochelt]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019, at 10:14, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 09 August 2019 07:59:07 Bob Crochelt wrote:
> 
> > Gene,
> > I’m scheduled for some heart rewiring myself. Good luck to the both of
> > us! Bob Crochelt
> 
> My heart guy is out of the country till around Sept 1. So I'm takeing an 
> extra half a 7.5gr warfarin pill a day to ward off another 
> clot/blockage. I've been taking the 7.5 since I survived a pulmonary 
> embolism about 5 years back but recent tests earlier this week had the 
> clot time below 2 and thats not good, needs more rat poison. If I get to 
> feeling bad I'll yell for a ride to Mon General in Morgantown about 60 
> miles north who has several heart guys on staff. So all I'm doing is 
> the dishes and cooking for the two of us. Shop work is on hold.
> 
> I'll have to get the next door neighbor to do that while I'm gone in that 
> event as the missus isn't ambulatory any more. Good neighbors, we share 
> wedding anniversaries, 30 for us on Dec 2nd, 41 for them. 
> 
> Pulmonary embolisms aren't fun, typical survival rate is less than 2%. 
> Sorta funny, when I was in Mon Gen before, thats a teaching hospital, 
> and the doc in charge of me that time always had an entourage of interns 
> along showing them that surviveing a P-E was possible. Made me feel like 
> a pet purple hamster or something. :)
> 
> Putting in heparin by the gallon, I was up to make water at about 20 
> minute intervals 24/7. Very poor sleep, and the room was too cold but I 
> jiggered the stat to fix that. One of the nurses started to fix it and I 
> flat told her if she was going to set it back down she could find me 
> blankets big enough and warm enough. What they had weren't much bigger 
> than a cloth diaper. 8 days. First time ever in a hospital.
> 
> I lost nearly 20 lbs by the time I was home for 3 or 4 days & had a 
> chance to get rid of it. Legs blown up like phone poles.
> 
> I had a pacemaker installed back in January, pulse was in the low 30's 
> when I walked in the ER door & said I thought I needed one, getting a 
> bit woozy in between heartbeats. They didn't argue with me a bit. I was 
> a "live one with an AARP plan F policy". ;-)
> 
> Good luck with yours too Bob.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
> - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
> 

Thanks Gene. I’m “just” having an afib ablation. I used to live in Elkins, Mon 
General is great. My resting heart rate when not in afib is 49, so I may be 
joining you in the pacemaker club some day. Best wishes

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Reco]

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 01:16:49PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 19:59:34 +0300
> Reco  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 06:16:21PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> > > This one was very appealing 
> > > https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91=acrosser=1561237800=gateway=8-11
> > 
> > $430 for a router? Surely you're kidding.
> > 
> > This one is five times cheaper *and* it can run Debian or openwrt:
> > 
> > https://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Dual-Band-Wireless-Gigabit-WRT1200AC/dp/B00UVN20T0/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=linksys+wrt+1200=1565369861=gateway=8-2
> 
> When you say five times cheaper, I gather you're talking about the
> prices for used units, in which case it's not really an
> apples-to-apples comparison. At least when I checked, the new units on
> Amazon start at $190.

I stand corrected. It's two times cheaper for new ones.

Reco

Re: Server hardware advice.

[John Hasler]

$430 is way above my budget.  "Linksys" and "Wireless" are both
negatives.  Maybe, if I could get it for $10 at a yard sale...
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Celejar]

On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 19:59:34 +0300
Reco  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 06:16:21PM +0200, deloptes wrote:

...

> > This one was very appealing 
> > https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91=acrosser=1561237800=gateway=8-11
> 
> $430 for a router? Surely you're kidding.
> 
> This one is five times cheaper *and* it can run Debian or openwrt:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Dual-Band-Wireless-Gigabit-WRT1200AC/dp/B00UVN20T0/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=linksys+wrt+1200=1565369861=gateway=8-2

When you say five times cheaper, I gather you're talking about the
prices for used units, in which case it's not really an
apples-to-apples comparison. At least when I checked, the new units on
Amazon start at $190.

[But I run OpenWrt on a TP-Link AC-2600, which I purchased several years
ago (used / refurbished) on eBay for about $50-$55, and are currently
available there for as little as $73 (less if you take a unit missing
antennas, etc. ...)]

Celejar

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Reco]

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 06:16:21PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> John Hasler wrote:
> 
> >  Steven Mainor writes:
> >  > It looks like there are some ESPRESSOBIN v7s on Amazon right now.
> > 
> > Excellent.  When I looked yesterday Amazon said "None available".  I
> > think I'll order one today.  The ancient Dell I'm now using as a
> > router/firewall is getting flaky.  I've wanted to replace it some time
> > but I want something ARM-based.  This is the first suitable board I've
> > seen that has dual ethernet.  I'll stick it in a box along with the
> > modem, the switch, and a power supply.
> 
> This one was very appealing 
> https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91=acrosser=1561237800=gateway=8-11

$430 for a router? Surely you're kidding.

This one is five times cheaper *and* it can run Debian or openwrt:

https://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Dual-Band-Wireless-Gigabit-WRT1200AC/dp/B00UVN20T0/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=linksys+wrt+1200=1565369861=gateway=8-2

Reco

Re: Server hardware advice.

[deloptes]

John Hasler wrote:

>  Steven Mainor writes:
>  > It looks like there are some ESPRESSOBIN v7s on Amazon right now.
> 
> Excellent.  When I looked yesterday Amazon said "None available".  I
> think I'll order one today.  The ancient Dell I'm now using as a
> router/firewall is getting flaky.  I've wanted to replace it some time
> but I want something ARM-based.  This is the first suitable board I've
> seen that has dual ethernet.  I'll stick it in a box along with the
> modem, the switch, and a power supply.

This one was very appealing 
https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91=acrosser=1561237800=gateway=8-11

or this one
https://eshop.aaeon.com/desktop-network-appliance-fws-2276.html

I was recently looking in the same direction

Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 09 August 2019 07:59:07 Bob Crochelt wrote:

> Gene,
> I’m scheduled for some heart rewiring myself. Good luck to the both of
> us! Bob Crochelt

My heart guy is out of the country till around Sept 1. So I'm takeing an 
extra half a 7.5gr warfarin pill a day to ward off another 
clot/blockage. I've been taking the 7.5 since I survived a pulmonary 
embolism about 5 years back but recent tests earlier this week had the 
clot time below 2 and thats not good, needs more rat poison. If I get to 
feeling bad I'll yell for a ride to Mon General in Morgantown about 60 
miles north who has several heart guys on staff.  So all I'm doing is 
the dishes and cooking for the two of us.  Shop work is on hold.

I'll have to get the next door neighbor to do that while I'm gone in that 
event as the missus isn't ambulatory any more. Good neighbors, we share 
wedding anniversaries, 30 for us on Dec 2nd, 41 for them. 

Pulmonary embolisms aren't fun, typical survival rate is less than 2%.  
Sorta funny, when I was in Mon Gen before, thats a teaching hospital, 
and the doc in charge of me that time always had an entourage of interns 
along showing them that surviveing a P-E was possible. Made me feel like 
a pet purple hamster or something. :)

Putting in heparin by the gallon, I was up to make water at about 20 
minute intervals 24/7. Very poor sleep, and the room was too cold but I 
jiggered the stat to fix that. One of the nurses started to fix it and I 
flat told her if she was going to set it back down she could find me 
blankets big enough and warm enough. What they had weren't much bigger 
than a cloth diaper. 8 days. First time ever in a hospital.

I lost nearly 20 lbs by the time I was home for 3 or 4 days & had a 
chance to get rid of it.  Legs blown up like phone poles.

I had a pacemaker installed back in January, pulse was in the low 30's 
when I walked in the ER door & said I thought I needed one, getting a 
bit woozy in between heartbeats. They didn't argue with me a bit. I was 
a "live one with an AARP plan F policy". ;-)

Good luck with yours too Bob.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Étienne Mollier]

tomás, on 2019-08-09:
> On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 12:24:41PM +0200, Étienne Mollier wrote:

[...]

> >My message was actually addressed to anyone
> > on the list, especially some writers with stronger language than
> > usual, but I can't recall you being part of this set.  Yes, I
> > have found an issue; yes, it appears in your post; no, it is not
> > your authoring.  Perhaps I unwillingly targeted you by quoting a
> > part of your message, but this was not intentional.  Should it
> > reoccur, the message would just contain the paragraph leading to
> > the link, no quote.  Are you fine with that, or do I completely
> > miss the point?
>
> Somewhat, but in a different way :-)

Once, a wise woman told that textual messages carry around
thirty percent of the meaning intended in the first place.  It
looks like this holds quite true in this exchange then.  :)

> See, as far as I am concerned, your post was fine, so when you
> feel like that, just do it again. And if you catch me behaving
> as I shouldn't, by all means, call me out on that.

Sure will do, although I will probably stick to private messages
first, if that ends up being necessary.

> > Now thinking twice, the so called wise man which authored the
> > very first profanity may not be subscribed to the list though...
> > :)
>
> I tend to be a bit more lenient than you: this kind of profanities
> don't seem to me too hard: although I'd prefer them to be rare
> (for the benefit of those who might feel pain at reading them),
> I think that some level of tolerance is necessary in such a
> big mailing list. The OP didn't insult anyone personally, and
> (s)he is known to have a rather curt and strong language. OTOH,
> (s)he has many helpful and to-the-point posts here.

You are plain right (unless some people are currently reading
this list with radio packets in countries where documented
limitations in the language do apply, I suppose).  I also must
acknowledge the quality of the participation of the writer you
mention, for I have been subscribed myself long enough to
witness it.

Somehow the profanity this time turned back against its author
in an embarrassing way, and that reminded me about the code of
conduct on this topic.  Rereading my initial post, I believe
that I sound exactly like an overreacting puritan.  Crap, I
should've kept that formulation with the smiley, present in the
original draft...

> That's why I decided to take the edge off that thing in a
> humorous way by reminding us of the fact that agriculture's
> main business model is turning manure into tasty aubergines;
> so perhaps that wise man wasn't totally right after all...

Indeed, aubergines are tasty, and I was reading an interesting
article about reintroduction of horses and oxen in agriculture,
and how it could participate in reducing the energy cost of
having to produce manure artificially on one side, and reduce
the dependency on fuel for tractors on the other side.
Obviously, as such that would be at the expense of food
productivity; except perhaps if we consider the food thrown
afterwards instead of being eaten, but I digress:

https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/04/horses-agricult.html

(Note that solar.lowtechmagazine.com is hosted on an SBC, if it
 can relate to the initial thread.  It definitely does not run
 Nextcloud though.)

> So don't worry. All is well. My question was really genuine,
> not a contorted way of defense or something.

No worries then, that is a relief!  :D

Kind regards,
-- 
Étienne Mollier 
   5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54 2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d




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Re: Server hardware advice.

[John Hasler]

 Steven Mainor writes:
 > It looks like there are some ESPRESSOBIN v7s on Amazon right now.

Excellent.  When I looked yesterday Amazon said "None available".  I
think I'll order one today.  The ancient Dell I'm now using as a
router/firewall is getting flaky.  I've wanted to replace it some time
but I want something ARM-based.  This is the first suitable board I've
seen that has dual ethernet.  I'll stick it in a box along with the
modem, the switch, and a power supply.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 12:24:41PM +0200, Étienne Mollier wrote:

[...]

> Good morning tomás,
> 
> Sincere apologies if you took it personally,

No worries, I didn't. Not as an offense, by the least. No need
to apoligize.

>   I did not intend to
> target you at all.

Thing is, we all do stupid things without noticing, and from
past experience I know *I* do. But I'm willing to learn from
mistakes -- thus my question.

>My message was actually addressed to anyone
> on the list, especially some writers with stronger language than
> usual, but I can't recall you being part of this set.  Yes, I
> have found an issue; yes, it appears in your post; no, it is not
> your authoring.  Perhaps I unwillingly targeted you by quoting a
> part of your message, but this was not intentional.  Should it
> reoccur, the message would just contain the paragraph leading to
> the link, no quote.  Are you fine with that, or do I completely
> miss the point?

Somewhat, but in a different way :-)

See, as far as I am concerned, your post was fine, so when you
feel like that, just do it again. And if you catch me behaving
as I shouldn't, by all means, call me out on that.

> Now thinking twice, the so called wise man which authored the
> very first profanity may not be subscribed to the list though...
> :)

I tend to be a bit more lenient than you: this kind of profanities
don't seem to me too hard: although I'd prefer them to be rare
(for the benefit of those who might feel pain at reading them),
I think that some level of tolerance is necessary in such a
big mailing list. The OP didn't insult anyone personally, and
(s)he is known to have a rather curt and strong language. OTOH,
(s)he has many helpful and to-the-point posts here.

That's why I decided to take the edge off that thing in a
humorous way by reminding us of the fact that agriculture's
main business model is turning manure into tasty aubergines;
so perhaps that wise man wasn't totally right after all...

So don't worry. All is well. My question was really genuine,
not a contorted way of defense or something.

Cheers
-- tomás


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Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Bob Crochelt]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019, at 03:15, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 08 August 2019 18:01:01 ghe wrote:
> 
> > On 8/8/19 4:39 AM, Kenneth Parker wrote:
> > > I also hear stories about people, using Raspberry Pi Systems as
> > > Servers.
> >
> > At least a 3+, on a T1, with a good UPS, well backed up, and with
> > clones of hardware and software near at hand. And running Debian.
> >
> > Under those conditions, they do just fine.
> 
> So does a 3+, running realtime stretch. Using a nearly 50 mhz spi 
> interface, its running 1400 lbs worth of 70 yo Sheldon lathe that's been 
> rebuilt with ball screws for micron precision, running the lathe quite 
> well but with sluggish video. Even that should be fixed in the next 
> month by switching to debian-arm buster, or a new raspian buster. The 
> biggest lag is me, I need to go get my ticker rebuilt.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
> - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
> 
> 
Gene,
I’m scheduled for some heart rewiring myself. Good luck to the both of us!
Bob Crochelt

Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Étienne Mollier]

> On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 11:12:22AM +0200, Étienne Mollier wrote:
> > tomás, on 2019-08-09:
> > > (Yes, and there's some hidden message in my seemingly OT comment,
> > > but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader ;-)
> >
> > Oh my ${DEITY}, once you see it, you cannot "un-see" it...
> >
> > It sounds like a good opportunity to recall the code of conduct
> > of the list; in addition to other items, it prohibits profanity:
> >
> > https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/
> >
> > Should this be observed more closely, this kind of situation
> > would probably not have happened.
>
> Now a genuine question (yes, sometimes I'm too dumb to understand
> subtle things -- that after having made a "subtle comment" myself:
> egg on my face).
>
> Have you found issue in my post? Let me know, then, if necessary
> bluntly, at your choice via the list or directly.
>
> Ready to learn. Yes, really: no irony or sarcasm.
>
> Cheers
> -- tomás

Good morning tomás,

Sincere apologies if you took it personally, I did not intend to
target you at all.  My message was actually addressed to anyone
on the list, especially some writers with stronger language than
usual, but I can't recall you being part of this set.  Yes, I
have found an issue; yes, it appears in your post; no, it is not
your authoring.  Perhaps I unwillingly targeted you by quoting a
part of your message, but this was not intentional.  Should it
reoccur, the message would just contain the paragraph leading to
the link, no quote.  Are you fine with that, or do I completely
miss the point?

Now thinking twice, the so called wise man which authored the
very first profanity may not be subscribed to the list though...
:)

Kind regards,
-- 
Étienne Mollier 
   5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54 2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d




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Re: Server hardware advice.

[Igor Cicimov]

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019, 3:35 PM Steven Mainor  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary focus
> on
> security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 to 5
> people at most.
>
> My requirements are:
>
> A server setup that can be run with completely open source software and
> doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed source
> for
> this particular project.
>
> A gigabit ethernet port.
>
> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.
>
> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server from
> an
> encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput saving
> and
> reading files from nextcloud.
>
> I would just build something x86 based but the amd/intel Platform Security
> Processor/IME stuff makes me nervous.
>
> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones listed
> here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW
>
> I like the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but I am not sure the processor will be
> enough
> to handle the overhead from an encrypted hard drive. I also don't like
> that it
> is only 32-bit since that will limit the file size nextcloud can handle as
> I
> understand it.
>
> Is there anything similar to the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but more powerful or
> is
> there a better option I haven't read about yet?
>
> --
> Steven Mainor


Just grab one HP microserver NL36/40/54 series like this one
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-ProLiant-Microserver-G8-G1610T-Server-12GB-EEC-Ram/223611463875
and forget about that SBC nonsense :-)

>

Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 11:12:22AM +0200, Étienne Mollier wrote:
> tomás, on 2019-08-09:
> > (Yes, and there's some hidden message in my seemingly OT comment,
> > but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader ;-)
> 
> Oh my ${DEITY}, once you see it, you cannot "un-see" it...
> 
> It sounds like a good opportunity to recall the code of conduct
> of the list; in addition to other items, it prohibits profanity:
> 
>   https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/
> 
> Should this be observed more closely, this kind of situation
> would probably not have happened.

Now a genuine question (yes, sometimes I'm too dumb to understand
subtle things -- that after having made a "subtle comment" myself:
egg on my face).

Have you found issue in my post? Let me know, then, if necessary
bluntly, at your choice via the list or directly.

Ready to learn. Yes, really: no irony or sarcasm.

Cheers
-- tomás


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Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Étienne Mollier]

tomás, on 2019-08-09:
> (Yes, and there's some hidden message in my seemingly OT comment,
> but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader ;-)

Oh my ${DEITY}, once you see it, you cannot "un-see" it...

It sounds like a good opportunity to recall the code of conduct
of the list; in addition to other items, it prohibits profanity:

https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/

Should this be observed more closely, this kind of situation
would probably not have happened.

-- 
Étienne Mollier 
   5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54 2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d




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[OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[tomas]

[...]

> No, 
> I am helping the OP. As one wise man said once: from shit you can make only
> shit [...]

This wise man didn't know about agriculture, then.

(Yes, and there's some hidden message in my seemingly OT comment,
but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader ;-)

Nevermind, cheers
-- tomás


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Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 08 August 2019 18:01:01 ghe wrote:

> On 8/8/19 4:39 AM, Kenneth Parker wrote:
> > I also hear stories about people, using Raspberry Pi Systems as
> > Servers.
>
> At least a 3+, on a T1, with a good UPS, well backed up, and with
> clones of hardware and software near at hand. And running Debian.
>
> Under those conditions, they do just fine.

So does a 3+, running realtime stretch. Using a nearly 50 mhz spi 
interface, its running 1400 lbs worth of 70 yo Sheldon lathe that's been 
rebuilt with ball screws for micron precision, running the lathe quite 
well but with sluggish video. Even that should be fixed in the next 
month by switching to debian-arm buster, or a new raspian buster. The 
biggest lag is me, I need to go get my ticker rebuilt.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[ghe]

On 8/8/19 4:39 AM, Kenneth Parker wrote:

> I also hear stories about people, using Raspberry Pi Systems as Servers.

At least a 3+, on a T1, with a good UPS, well backed up, and with clones
of hardware and software near at hand. And running Debian.

Under those conditions, they do just fine.

-- 
Glenn English

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Steven Mainor]

It looks like there are some ESPRESSOBIN v7s on Amazon right now. 
--
Steven Mainor

On August 8, 2019 11:16:44 PM EDT, John Hasler  wrote:
>Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>> Disregarding OSHW I agree that above options are good highlights. 
>> Additionally I suggest Olimex A64-Olinuxino and ESPRESSObin, both 
>> (unlike above options) known to be mainlined and work with Debian 
>> Buster.
>
>The ESPRESSObin would fulfill my requirements, but does not appear to
>actually be available.
>-- 
>John Hasler 
>jhas...@newsguy.com
>Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Server hardware advice.

[John Hasler]

Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Disregarding OSHW I agree that above options are good highlights. 
> Additionally I suggest Olimex A64-Olinuxino and ESPRESSObin, both 
> (unlike above options) known to be mainlined and work with Debian 
> Buster.

The ESPRESSObin would fulfill my requirements, but does not appear to
actually be available.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[deloptes]

Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

> You might theoretically be helping millions of others reading along who
> appreciate your continued inout about a derived subject - but it is more
> sensible to me, and more visible to those who want that help, if you
> change the subject line to match your derived topic.

No, 
I am helping the OP. As one wise man said once: from shit you can make only
shit and this is it with low budget crappy hardware servers. He may be wise
to understand you too. I did not want to induce my opinion that way, but if
there is no other way to say it clear ... I hope now it is clear. 
Than someone suggests a NAS board etc. etc. - cause he/she has a server for
MP3 files and so on...

When I was student with low budget I tried this - nothing worked (long).
Doing proper concept, calculations included and spending a bit more gave me
a system running without an issue for more than 6y now - its worth the
latest penny.

So I do not know if you can buy for 500 today what I have bought for 1000 6y
ago - I doubt, but then the guy says he has some old disks, not saying what
kind of disks and wants a server? Pls give me a break. If those 3-4 people
try reading/writing simultaneously and it has also some background jobs
running ... well good luck.

Re: Server hardware advice.

[David Christensen]

On 8/8/19 7:22 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:

To summarize: if you're running ZFS, it can protect you from
lots of sources of data corruption. It can't protect you from
RAM errors without ECC, so you should opt for ECC if integrity
is your goal.

None of the other filesystems protect you against RAM errors
either, so this is not a special requirement of ZFS.


+1


The same goes for anything that uses main memory, which is pretty much 
everything I use computers for.



Bad data in memory is bad enough, but bad data written to disk is the 
gift that keeps on giving -- replication overwriting good data, snapshot 
and backup rotation overwriting good data, archive destruction 
destroying good data, etc..  The longer it takes to figure out the data 
is bad, the less likely you can recover.



For me, the key points in favor of ECC are:

1. Wikipedia gives DRAM bit error rates (BER) from 10E-10 to 10E-17 
errors per bit per hour [1].  So, 1 error per year for 114 kB to 1.14 TB 
of DRAM on average under some test conditions.


2.  In the wild, not all chips, modules, sockets, capacitors, 
motherboards, etc., are healthy or compatible.  Real BER's can be much 
higher.


3.  The BER of DRAM tends to increase as the transistors, capacitors, 
lines, etc., get smaller and faster [2].  Given Moore's Law, 
manufacturers must be hard pressed just to maintain the BER with each 
new generation.


4.  Moore's Law again: the amount of DRAM in devices has been increasing 
exponentially, thus adding more DRAM that can error.



So, it is just a matter of time before the error probability curve 
crosses the BER specification.  One article I read said desktops and 
laptops already crossed it at 8 to 16 GB.  COTS servers can have one or 
two orders of magnitude more memory.



David


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_random-access_memory

[2] https://danluu.com/why-ecc/

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Michael Stone]

On Thu, Aug 08, 2019 at 04:49:06PM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote:

So is the general consensus that there are no modern SBCs powerful enough to
run nextcloud on (apache, mariadb, php) or a mail server (typical postfix,
dovecot, opendkim, SpamAssassin etc... ) for a handful of people? That seems
hard to believe.


The mail server is easy. Nextcloud is porky. The easy answer is to get a 
cheap PC but you decided you didn't want to do that. And you don't want 
to spend any money. That leaves you in the uncomfortable quadrant of 
"unreliably available specialized boards built from ARM components". It 
can be done but it will take more work to identify and acquire the 
board. If you don't like that, then you can change one of your other 
parameters (software, writing off x86, price, etc) and then the problem 
becomes easier with more options.

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Dan Ritter]

Steven Mainor wrote: 
> So is the general consensus that there are no modern SBCs powerful enough to 
> run nextcloud on (apache, mariadb, php) or a mail server (typical postfix, 
> dovecot, opendkim, SpamAssassin etc... ) for a handful of people? That seems 
> hard to believe. 
> 

I would certainly run mail for a household or so on an SBC,
should that be necessary.

NextCloud is probably going to be rather sluggish, although an
RPi4 with a USB3 connected SSD might not be bad.

-dsr-

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Steven Mainor]

So is the general consensus that there are no modern SBCs powerful enough to 
run nextcloud on (apache, mariadb, php) or a mail server (typical postfix, 
dovecot, opendkim, SpamAssassin etc... ) for a handful of people? That seems 
hard to believe. 

--
Steven Mainor

On August 8, 2019 12:14:23 PM EDT, Jonas Smedegaard  wrote:
>Quoting Reco (2019-08-08 17:25:02)
>> Hi.
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 08, 2019 at 04:54:17PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>> > > > > Then Intel stopped making desktop boards and I wanted ZFS.
>ZFS 
>> > > > > wants ECC memory.  It was time to migrate to server hardware.
>> > > > 
>> > > > My understanding is that ZFS's need / desire for ECC is 
>> > > > something of a myth. It's certainly true that many ZFS /
>FreeNAS 
>> > > > *users* have such a need, but the filesystem itself apparently 
>> > > > doesn't:
>> > > > 
>> > > >
>https://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/
>> > > 
>> > > To summarize: if you're running ZFS, it can protect you from lots
>
>> > > of sources of data corruption. It can't protect you from RAM 
>> > > errors without ECC, so you should opt for ECC if integrity is
>your 
>> > > goal.
>> > > 
>> > > None of the other filesystems protect you against RAM errors 
>> > > either, so this is not a special requirement of ZFS.
>> > 
>> > ECC memory is rare among ARM SBCs, but Helios4 uses ECC memory!
>> 
>> ... with the only problem being the quantity of such RAM.
>> 
>> A typical Helios4 board has whopping 2Gb of RAM, which is about 4 
>> times lower than needed for comfortable ZFS usage (assuming that
>zpool 
>> size is measured in terabytes) and a user intends to run something 
>> more than a OS kernel and sshd. That estimation deliberately excludes
>
>> all advanced ZFS features (such as compression, encryption and 
>> deduplication).
>> 
>> IMO for such RAM sizes it's better to use old trusted MDRAID, LVM, 
>> ext4 and a new kid on the block - dm-integrity (all the needed tools 
>> are in buster, but some assembly is required).
>
>For the record I did not recommend using ZFS on low-end hardware.
>
>The OP asked for advice in buying low-end ARM-based hardware for use as
>
>server, and I pointed out that one ARM SBC (likely the only relatively 
>cheap one) is known to use ECC memory - which (as the previous poster 
>pointed out) is interesting _independently_ of choice of filesystem.
>
>Personally I use ext4 with journaling enabled, on either conventional 
>rotating disks, SSDs, or sdcards (no RAID involved).
>
>
> - Jonas
>
>-- 
> * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
> * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
>
> [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Curt]

On 2019-08-08, Dan Ritter  wrote:
>> 
>> I think you are missing the point: When someone asks a question on this 
>> list, then that someone gets to decide what the question is.
>  
> Sure. But they also bear the burden of communicating precisely
> what it is that they are asking for, and accepting that some
> responses will offer advice rather than answers. Some of that
> advice is even valuable!
>

The questioner gets to decide what the question is, and the
answerer gets to decide what the answer is.

The former taken to facetious extremes is epitomized by you-know-who,
and the outer limit of the latter is occupied by the old-timer who
advises a person wanting to get printing working again in kmail (for
example) to just use Mutt.

-- 
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” 
― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Judah Richardson]

My experience with Linux forums over the years is that more effort is spent
trying to find reasons to call people asking questions lazy and stupid (or
dissing Windows/Windows users when the OP never even mentioned either) than
actually helping them.

So far this mailing list is below average on that metric from my
observation, which is good.

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019, 10:57 Jonas Smedegaard  wrote:

> Quoting deloptes (2019-08-08 17:13:03)
> > Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > > Reading the whole initial post (not only first half) is good too ;-)
> >
> > But please, I tried to make the statement more precise, cause the
> > first half contradicts the second. Of course you could use any
> > hardware that runs linux as a server, but putting those demands
> > together, seems the guy is looking in the wrong direction. If you put
> > together miserable hardware, you get miserable results. And you can
> > not call this a server. You can use it _as_ a server - I was missing
> > "as". Perhaps I was too picky, but no one knows what OPs state of
> > knowledge and experience is.
>
> Let's for the sake of discussion assume that the initial post was
> totally incomprehensible to you.  You then asked for clarification -
> makes good sense.  And asking in the style of "When I read server
> hardware I understand..." makes good sense as well.
>
> ...but then the OP responded and explicitly clarifies to you what
> his understanding of "server hardware" is, it no longer makes sense to
>
> ...but when the OP responds with "I would say a server is any piece of
> software or hardware that serves data to other devices" you got your
> clarification!
>
> >From that point on it no longer makes sense to insist - in same thread -
> on a different interpretation: Topic is a request for help, and you are
> frankly not helping with what was asked.
>
> You might theoretically be helping millions of others reading along who
> appreciate your continued inout about a derived subject - but it is more
> sensible to me, and more visible to those who want that help, if you
> change the subject line to match your derived topic.
>
>
> > And in general in one discussion everybody can put forward any
> > statement or question. No one is forced to answer.
>
> Anyone can do anything.  Not all is sensible, however.
>
> Possibly taking the time to write this email is not sensible - time will
> tell...
>
>
>  - Jonas
>
> --
>  * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
>  * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
>
>  [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private
>

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Reco (2019-08-08 17:25:02)
> Hi.
> 
> On Thu, Aug 08, 2019 at 04:54:17PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > > > > Then Intel stopped making desktop boards and I wanted ZFS. ZFS 
> > > > > wants ECC memory.  It was time to migrate to server hardware.
> > > > 
> > > > My understanding is that ZFS's need / desire for ECC is 
> > > > something of a myth. It's certainly true that many ZFS / FreeNAS 
> > > > *users* have such a need, but the filesystem itself apparently 
> > > > doesn't:
> > > > 
> > > > https://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/
> > > 
> > > To summarize: if you're running ZFS, it can protect you from lots 
> > > of sources of data corruption. It can't protect you from RAM 
> > > errors without ECC, so you should opt for ECC if integrity is your 
> > > goal.
> > > 
> > > None of the other filesystems protect you against RAM errors 
> > > either, so this is not a special requirement of ZFS.
> > 
> > ECC memory is rare among ARM SBCs, but Helios4 uses ECC memory!
> 
> ... with the only problem being the quantity of such RAM.
> 
> A typical Helios4 board has whopping 2Gb of RAM, which is about 4 
> times lower than needed for comfortable ZFS usage (assuming that zpool 
> size is measured in terabytes) and a user intends to run something 
> more than a OS kernel and sshd. That estimation deliberately excludes 
> all advanced ZFS features (such as compression, encryption and 
> deduplication).
> 
> IMO for such RAM sizes it's better to use old trusted MDRAID, LVM, 
> ext4 and a new kid on the block - dm-integrity (all the needed tools 
> are in buster, but some assembly is required).

For the record I did not recommend using ZFS on low-end hardware.

The OP asked for advice in buying low-end ARM-based hardware for use as 
server, and I pointed out that one ARM SBC (likely the only relatively 
cheap one) is known to use ECC memory - which (as the previous poster 
pointed out) is interesting _independently_ of choice of filesystem.

Personally I use ext4 with journaling enabled, on either conventional 
rotating disks, SSDs, or sdcards (no RAID involved).


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


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Description: signature

Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting deloptes (2019-08-08 17:13:03)
> Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Reading the whole initial post (not only first half) is good too ;-)
> 
> But please, I tried to make the statement more precise, cause the 
> first half contradicts the second. Of course you could use any 
> hardware that runs linux as a server, but putting those demands 
> together, seems the guy is looking in the wrong direction. If you put 
> together miserable hardware, you get miserable results. And you can 
> not call this a server. You can use it _as_ a server - I was missing 
> "as". Perhaps I was too picky, but no one knows what OPs state of 
> knowledge and experience is.

Let's for the sake of discussion assume that the initial post was 
totally incomprehensible to you.  You then asked for clarification - 
makes good sense.  And asking in the style of "When I read server 
hardware I understand..." makes good sense as well.

...but then the OP responded and explicitly clarifies to you what 
his understanding of "server hardware" is, it no longer makes sense to 

...but when the OP responds with "I would say a server is any piece of 
software or hardware that serves data to other devices" you got your 
clarification!

>From that point on it no longer makes sense to insist - in same thread - 
on a different interpretation: Topic is a request for help, and you are 
frankly not helping with what was asked.

You might theoretically be helping millions of others reading along who 
appreciate your continued inout about a derived subject - but it is more 
sensible to me, and more visible to those who want that help, if you 
change the subject line to match your derived topic.


> And in general in one discussion everybody can put forward any 
> statement or question. No one is forced to answer.

Anyone can do anything.  Not all is sensible, however.

Possibly taking the time to write this email is not sensible - time will 
tell...


 - Jonas

-- 
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 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: Server hardware advice.

[Reco]

Hi.

On Thu, Aug 08, 2019 at 04:54:17PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > > > Then Intel stopped making desktop boards and I wanted ZFS. ZFS 
> > > > wants ECC memory.  It was time to migrate to server hardware.
> > > 
> > > My understanding is that ZFS's need / desire for ECC is something of 
> > > a myth. It's certainly true that many ZFS / FreeNAS *users* have 
> > > such a need, but the filesystem itself apparently doesn't:
> > > 
> > > https://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/
> > 
> > To summarize: if you're running ZFS, it can protect you from lots of 
> > sources of data corruption. It can't protect you from RAM errors 
> > without ECC, so you should opt for ECC if integrity is your goal.
> > 
> > None of the other filesystems protect you against RAM errors either, 
> > so this is not a special requirement of ZFS.
> 
> ECC memory is rare among ARM SBCs, but Helios4 uses ECC memory!

... with the only problem being the quantity of such RAM.

A typical Helios4 board has whopping 2Gb of RAM, which is about 4 times
lower than needed for comfortable ZFS usage (assuming that zpool size is
measured in terabytes) and a user intends to run something more than a
OS kernel and sshd.
That estimation deliberately excludes all advanced ZFS features (such as
compression, encryption and deduplication).

IMO for such RAM sizes it's better to use old trusted MDRAID, LVM, ext4
and a new kid on the block - dm-integrity (all the needed tools are in
buster, but some assembly is required).

Reco

Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[deloptes]

Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

> Indeed.
> 
> Reading the whole initial post (not only first half) is good too ;-)

But please, I tried to make the statement more precise, cause the first half
contradicts the second. Of course you could use any hardware that runs
linux as a server, but putting those demands together, seems the guy is
looking in the wrong direction. If you put together miserable hardware, you
get miserable results. And you can not call this a server. You can use it
_as_ a server - I was missing "as". Perhaps I was too picky, but no one
knows what OPs state of knowledge and experience is.

And in general in one discussion everybody can put forward any statement or
question. No one is forced to answer.

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Dan Ritter (2019-08-08 16:22:07)
> Celejar wrote: 
> > On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 23:59:44 -0700
> > David Christensen  wrote:
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > > Get at least four internal SATA 6 Gbps ports -- boot disk, optical 
> > > disk, two data disks (mirrored).  I prefer six.
> > 
> > Do most people running servers really want / need an optical disk? 
> > As long as the machine can boot via USB, is an optical disk really 
> > important for a server?
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > > Then Intel stopped making desktop boards and I wanted ZFS. ZFS 
> > > wants ECC memory.  It was time to migrate to server hardware.
> > 
> > My understanding is that ZFS's need / desire for ECC is something of 
> > a myth. It's certainly true that many ZFS / FreeNAS *users* have 
> > such a need, but the filesystem itself apparently doesn't:
> > 
> > https://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/
> 
> To summarize: if you're running ZFS, it can protect you from lots of 
> sources of data corruption. It can't protect you from RAM errors 
> without ECC, so you should opt for ECC if integrity is your goal.
> 
> None of the other filesystems protect you against RAM errors either, 
> so this is not a special requirement of ZFS.

ECC memory is rare among ARM SBCs, but Helios4 uses ECC memory!

 - Jonas

-- 
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 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Dan Ritter (2019-08-08 16:19:37)
> Jonas Smedegaard wrote: 
> > Question was not "please advice on buying what you consider a 
> > server" but "please advice on buying what original poster considers 
> > a server".
> 
> A bit of elucidation was in order, since to many people "server 
> hardware" means "suitable for use in a datacenter: rackmountable, 
> space-efficient, high-powered, hotswap drives..."  whereas a Raspberry 
> Pi is also a server when you treat it as one.

The original poster quite clearly talked about disliking x86 hardware 
and already looking at a list of SBCs.


> Asking clarifying questions is a good thing.

Indeed.

Reading the whole initial post (not only first half) is good too ;-)


 - Jonas

-- 
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Re: Server hardware advice.

[Dan Ritter]

Celejar wrote: 
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 23:59:44 -0700
> David Christensen  wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> > Get at least four internal SATA 6 Gbps ports -- boot disk, optical disk, 
> > two data disks (mirrored).  I prefer six.
> 
> Do most people running servers really want / need an optical disk? As
> long as the machine can boot via USB, is an optical disk really
> important for a server?
> 
> ...
> 
> > Then Intel stopped making desktop boards and I wanted ZFS. ZFS wants 
> > ECC memory.  It was time to migrate to server hardware.
> 
> My understanding is that ZFS's need / desire for ECC is something of a
> myth. It's certainly true that many ZFS / FreeNAS *users* have such a
> need, but the filesystem itself apparently doesn't:
> 
> https://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/

To summarize: if you're running ZFS, it can protect you from
lots of sources of data corruption. It can't protect you from
RAM errors without ECC, so you should opt for ECC if integrity
is your goal.

None of the other filesystems protect you against RAM errors
either, so this is not a special requirement of ZFS.

-dsr-

Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Dan Ritter]

Jonas Smedegaard wrote: 
> Quoting Kenneth Parker (2019-08-08 12:39:35)
> > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019, 4:50 AM Nicolas George  wrote:
> > 
> > > deloptes (12019-08-08):
> > > > Well strictly speaking two different things are referred as 
> > > > server:
> > > 
> > >
> > > I have observed that contributors on this mailing-list have a 
> > > tendency to fall in two categories:
> > >
> > > - those who try to understand what the original poster says in order 
> > >   to reply in the most helpful manner ;
> > >
> > > - those who try to understand what the original poster says in order 
> > >   to find imprecisions and then forcefully educate them.
> > 
> > 
> > I get forcefully educated quite a bit, by being on this email list.
> > 
> > But, in my opinion, Servers can look like, just about anything.
> 
> I think you are missing the point: When someone asks a question on this 
> list, then that someone gets to decide what the question is.
 
Sure. But they also bear the burden of communicating precisely
what it is that they are asking for, and accepting that some
responses will offer advice rather than answers. Some of that
advice is even valuable!

> Question was not "please advice on buying what you consider a server" 
> but "please advice on buying what original poster considers a server".

A bit of elucidation was in order, since to many people "server hardware"
means "suitable for use in a datacenter: rackmountable, space-efficient,
high-powered, hotswap drives..."  whereas a Raspberry Pi is also a server
when you treat it as one.

Asking clarifying questions is a good thing.

-dsr-

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Celejar]

On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 23:59:44 -0700
David Christensen  wrote:

...

> Get at least four internal SATA 6 Gbps ports -- boot disk, optical disk, 
> two data disks (mirrored).  I prefer six.

Do most people running servers really want / need an optical disk? As
long as the machine can boot via USB, is an optical disk really
important for a server?

...

> Then Intel stopped making desktop boards and I wanted ZFS. ZFS wants 
> ECC memory.  It was time to migrate to server hardware.

My understanding is that ZFS's need / desire for ECC is something of a
myth. It's certainly true that many ZFS / FreeNAS *users* have such a
need, but the filesystem itself apparently doesn't:

https://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/
 
Celejar

Re: Server hardware advice.

[John Hasler]

Steven Mainor wrote:
> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary
> focus on security.  I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that
> will serve 3 to 5 people at most.

 David Christensen writes:
> Have you considered a mail hosting provider?  The Internet is a war
> zone and mail servers are prime targets.  Are you prepared to fight
> that battle 24x7?  Do you want you home IP that visible?  Will your
> mail users tolerate down-time?  I provide e-mail addresses for myself
> and for family members; I pay professionals to host my mail service.

Excellent advice.  A single Newsguy account will provide all the
addresses you need.  You can have your domain registrar redirect mail to
your Newsguy account so you can still use your domain name.  Since you
would be paying them (about $5/month) you would have an actual contract,
unlike "free" services such as Gmail.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[rhkramer]

On Thursday, August 08, 2019 04:50:31 AM Nicolas George wrote:
> deloptes (12019-08-08):
> > Well strictly speaking two different things are referred as server:
> 
> 
> I have observed that contributors on this mailing-list have a tendency
> to fall in two categories:
> 
> - those who try to understand what the original poster says in order to
>   reply in the most helpful manner ;
> 
> - those who try to understand what the original poster says in order to
>   find imprecisions and then forcefully educate them.

Interesting, I think there are a few more categories (and this is incomplete 
in a number of ways):

   * those that try to educate themselves by reading, and sometimes asking 
questions to clarify their own understanding

   * those that lose sight of the OPs question / problem and diverge from that 
topic, especially without making an appropriate change to the Subject line.

   * hmm, there are some others, I have to think about how to phrase them -- 
sometimes (among others) threads drag on for a long time (i.e., lots of posts) 
for various reasons, among them:

  * 

Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Kenneth Parker (2019-08-08 12:39:35)
> On Thu, Aug 8, 2019, 4:50 AM Nicolas George  wrote:
> 
> > deloptes (12019-08-08):
> > > Well strictly speaking two different things are referred as 
> > > server:
> > 
> >
> > I have observed that contributors on this mailing-list have a 
> > tendency to fall in two categories:
> >
> > - those who try to understand what the original poster says in order 
> >   to reply in the most helpful manner ;
> >
> > - those who try to understand what the original poster says in order 
> >   to find imprecisions and then forcefully educate them.
> 
> 
> I get forcefully educated quite a bit, by being on this email list.
> 
> But, in my opinion, Servers can look like, just about anything.

I think you are missing the point: When someone asks a question on this 
list, then that someone gets to decide what the question is.

Question was not "please advice on buying what you consider a server" 
but "please advice on buying what original poster considers a server".

Feel free to take inspiration from a post to talk about something else - 
but don't steal the thread!  Instead do as Nicolas did here and rename 
subject field to clearly indicate that you are changing topic!


 - Jonas

-- 
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Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Kenneth Parker]

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019, 4:50 AM Nicolas George  wrote:

> deloptes (12019-08-08):
> > Well strictly speaking two different things are referred as server:
> 
>
> I have observed that contributors on this mailing-list have a tendency
> to fall in two categories:
>
> - those who try to understand what the original poster says in order to
>   reply in the most helpful manner ;
>
> - those who try to understand what the original poster says in order to
>   find imprecisions and then forcefully educate them.


I get forcefully educated quite a bit, by being on this email list.

But, in my opinion, Servers can look like, just about anything.

For a few months, I actually ran a Netbook as a Web, and Email Server,
under an old Ubuntu release.  Kept it plugged in all the time, which worked
against me, due to Battery issues, but that's another story.

I also hear stories about people, using Raspberry Pi Systems as Servers.
Oh well.

Best regards,

Kenneth Parker

>
>

Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Nicolas George]

deloptes (12019-08-08):
> Well strictly speaking two different things are referred as server:


I have observed that contributors on this mailing-list have a tendency
to fall in two categories:

- those who try to understand what the original poster says in order to
  reply in the most helpful manner ;

- those who try to understand what the original poster says in order to
  find imprecisions and then forcefully educate them.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Re: Server hardware advice.

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Mi, 07 aug 19, 10:21:25, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> 
> Disregarding OSHW I agree that above options are good highlights. 
> Additionally I suggest Olimex A64-Olinuxino and ESPRESSObin, both 
> (unlike above options) known to be mainlined and work with Debian 
> Buster.

The Rock64Pro (possibly with the SATA expansion card) or the 
MACHIATTObin could also be an option.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: Server hardware advice.

[David Christensen]

On 8/6/19 10:29 PM, Steven Mainor wrote:

Hi all,

I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary focus on
security. 


Have you considered OpenBSD?  Security is their top priority.



I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 to 5
people at most.


Have you considered a mail hosting provider?  The Internet is a war zone 
and mail servers are prime targets.  Are you prepared to fight that 
battle 24x7?  Do you want you home IP that visible?  Will your mail 
users tolerate down-time?  I provide e-mail addresses for myself and for 
family members; I pay professionals to host my mail service.



Hosting Nextcloud locally allows you to get at your data at LAN speeds, but:

1.  Do you have a good firewall/ router, and know how to use it?

2.  Will Nextcloud run in a DMZ?

3.  Does Nextcloud require a public IP -- e.g. DNS or dynamic DNS?



My requirements are:

A server setup that can be run with completely open source software and
doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed source for
this particular project.


I prefer Intel brand motherboards, and Dell products with Intel chips, 
because the hardware quality is good, support documents are available 
for many years,  and Intel supports FOSS with reference source code. So, 
a given FOSS OS distribution has the best chance of working OOTB on such 
hardware without needing binary firmware.  That said, the Intel WiFi 
board I installed in this Dell laptop does require binary firmware.




A gigabit ethernet port.


More than one can be very useful.



A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.


Internal headers, internal ports, or external ports?


SATA DOM?


M.2, etc.?


I have had issues with FOSS and USB 3.0 ports.  USB 2.0 is slower, but 
more reliable.



I have found internal to be more reliable than external.


Get at least four internal SATA 6 Gbps ports -- boot disk, optical disk, 
two data disks (mirrored).  I prefer six.




Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server from an
encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput saving and
reading files from nextcloud.


Get a processor with AES-NI support.


Get a motherboard that uses ECC RAM and get ECC RAM.  Research your OS, 
file system(s), services, etc., for the amount of RAM needed, and pad 
according to budget and market price points.  I would not get less than 
2 @ 4 GB ECC.




I would just build something x86 based but the amd/intel Platform Security
Processor/IME stuff makes me nervous.


Do not connect an Ethernet port with a management chip directly to the 
Internet and/or disable the management chip in the CMOS setup.  If the 
box has more than one Ethernet port and you want the management 
features, connect the Ethernet port with the management chip to a 
air-walled administration LAN.




So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones listed
here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW

I like the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but I am not sure the processor will be enough
to handle the overhead from an encrypted hard drive. I also don't like that it
is only 32-bit since that will limit the file size nextcloud can handle as I
understand it.

Is there anything similar to the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but more powerful or is
there a better option I haven't read about yet?


On 8/6/19 11:08 PM, Steven Mainor wrote:
I would like to keep the budget under $500 not including the hard 
drive(s) I already have drives. Less is better.


On 8/7/19 9:42 AM, Steven Mainor wrote:
For my needs, I doubt anything more than a modern single board 
computer is necessary. At least as far as compute power is concerned.



I have many doubts about SBC's and SFF computers -- fewer memory, 
expansion, and I/O slots and ports; fewer choices for processors, memory 
modules, cases, power supplies, expansion cards, etc.; fewer drive bays; 
heat issues; long-term vendor support; and the total system cost is 
always higher than an equivalent tower desktop or server.



I built my computers from good quality, standards-compliant, COTS 
desktop parts for 20+ years.  This allowed me to mix-and-match as 
required when parts died or became obsolete.  I still have two 64-bit 
desktop machines in use, and two 32-bit machines packed in their 
original boxes in the garage.



Then Intel stopped making desktop boards and I wanted ZFS.  ZFS wants 
ECC memory.  It was time to migrate to server hardware.



I needed to upgrade or replace my SOHO server late last year.  My old 
SOHO server was based on an Antec full tower ATX case and had an Intel 
D945GNT motherboard, Pentium D processor, and 2 @ 1 GB RAM.  One memory 
slot was bad, preventing installation of 4 @ 1 GB RAM, and dm-crypt 
without AES-NI cut disk performance in half or more.  I replaced the 
motherboard, CPU, and memory with a used server parts:

Re: Server hardware advice.

[deloptes]

Steven Mainor wrote:

> I would say a server is any piece of software or hardware that serves data
> to other devices.
> 

Well strictly speaking two different things are referred as server:
hardware
software

In your case you are talking about buying hardware - correct? And if you
intend to use a PC, than the correct wording for this would be

A second hand PC that will be used as a home server.

> I have run an apache2/mariadb/php server from an old laptop with a
> headless LTS Linux for over two years without issue.
> 
> Surely you aren't saying only a rack mounted 64 core monstrosity with a TB
> of ram is qualified to be called a "server"
> 

On hardware level - yes. Any PC can be used as a server, but it is still not
a server from HW POV. There are many many technical details that make the
difference, like memory channels, caches etc.

> For my needs, I doubt anything more than a modern single board computer is
> necessary. At least as far as compute power is concerned.

Yes any modern PC would work. What was suggested that you take one with
enough CPU and RAM. I think today one could get 4-8 CPUs with 16-32GB of
RAM at a fair price.

Do not underestimate the disks. I had a terrible experience with PC style
drives. Take NAS style harddrives like the WD Red. You really want to use
RAID there and all other drives I have been using in the past had to be
replaced either because they failed or because the latency was
unacceptable. I had Seagate Baraccuda, WD Green and WD Blue. A fellow sys
admin told me they use WD Red and indeed the 2TB WD Red are very reliable,
but not the bigger once - amazing what one should know. So I replaced all
the drives over the years with WD Red 2TB. I use RAID1.

I build a backup server recently out of older Intel DG45FC board I bought
with CPU for ~100,- some years ago, gain with WD Red 2TB in RAID5, so that
there is 6TB now.

What I want to say is that not every fairly modern PC works, because you
want to attach at least two disks to build a RAID - the more SATA
connectors you have - the better.

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Celejar]

On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 17:12:20 +0200
deloptes  wrote:

> Michael Stone wrote:
> 
> > Newer server hardware is much more power efficient and will draw very
> > little power when idle. This is one of the drawbacks to saving money by
> > using old hardware. (You can still use old hardware, just be sure it's
> > new enough that it's from the era when power efficiency became a thing.)
> 
> I am not sure who you are answering to. I recently looked at HP DL360 and
> DL380 Gen10. Yes indeed they are more power efficient compared to Gen9 in
> terms they provide more calculation cycles for the same power, but this can
> not be compared to a PC.

This sort of stuff is discussed endlessly on the homelab subreddit, but
for some personal data points: I run Debian on a Dell R210 II, with 1
CPU with 4 cores / 8 threads and 16GB of RAM, and a single HDD: the thing
idles at about 23 watts. A Windows 10 VM (KVM / libvirt) adds about 5-7
watts, but a Debian Sid VM adds nothing. [Of course, the Debian VM is a
fairly minimal thing, with under 400 packages installed, while the
Windows installation is a pretty standard one.]

Celejar

Re: Server hardware advice.

[jochen-2019-q2]

Am 07.08.2019 um 10:21 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard:

Quoting Reco (2019-08-07 08:53:52)

On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 01:29:21AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote:

I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary
focus on security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that
will serve 3 to 5 people at most.

My requirements are:

A server setup that can be run with completely open source software
and doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything
closed source for this particular project.

A gigabit ethernet port.

A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.

Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server
from an encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate
throughput saving and reading files from nextcloud.


  These fit all your requirements (i.e. it'll run stock buster kernel
without any additional firmware):

Helios4 - [1]. 4 SATA ports controller attached to PCI-E.
GnuBee - [2]. 6 SATA ports attached to PCI-E.
Odroid HC2 - [3]. Single SATA port, attached to USB bus.


No powerful computers exist today completely without non-free parts:
Since you point to Open Source Hardware below, beware that none of above
devices are OSHWA certified: https://certification.oshwa.org/list.html -
if however your freedom concerns are limited to _software_ parts then it
is easier: Look for boards supported in mainline Linux and u-boot, and
supported in Debian!

Disregarding OSHW I agree that above options are good highlights.
Additionally I suggest Olimex A64-Olinuxino and ESPRESSObin, both
(unlike above options) known to be mainlined and work with Debian
Buster.

Personally, for hosting mail + Nextcloud for a small team I would
tolerate USB2.0 and use the OSHWA certified board Olimex A64-Olinuxino.

Only for heavy professional demands (e.g. an advertising agency pushing
big files across a LAN all the time) I would use a Helios4.



So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones
listed here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW


Happy to see that list being of use beyond the FreedomBox project and my
own competing https://solidbox.org/ :-)

Please note that above list is limited to more consumer-oriented devices
than your spec needs - e.g. must be sold with a proper case and be
cheaper than you tolerate.



That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in the
day.


I just got myself a Zotac CI329 Nano. The Ethernet drivers (Realtek 
r8169 module) seem to use some binary blob. It was a bit strange as the 
system asked me for them in the debian installer, but then worked 
without providing any files...


If that is ok for the OP, this provides a powerful fanless system. It is 
very compact, has four cores and it didn't complain when it was very hot 
here, recently.


I'm using it as a router, because the FritzBox! Routers are becoming 
useless for more ambitious users. It has 2x Gigabit Ethernet and Intel 
WiFi with a single antenna. I'm also having 2x Windows Server 2016 core 
running in VMs to play around with Active Directory. The CPU is Atom 
based and officially supports only 8G, but I bought a 16GB dual channel 
kit and it works without flaw. I did the same on my QNAP, which has an 
older generation Celeron without AES instructions.


A €30 240GB Kingston SSD provides plenty of fast storage and all 
together this is a powerful, clean system using <10W.


Jochen

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Steven Mainor]

I would say a server is any piece of software or hardware that serves data to 
other devices.

I have run an apache2/mariadb/php server from an old laptop with a headless LTS 
Linux for over two years without issue.

Surely you aren't saying only a rack mounted 64 core monstrosity with a TB of 
ram is qualified to be called a "server"

For my needs, I doubt anything more than a modern single board computer is 
necessary. At least as far as compute power is concerned.

--
Steven Mainor

On August 7, 2019 10:53:52 AM EDT, deloptes  wrote:

Steven Mainor wrote:

I would like to keep the budget under $500 not including the hard drive(s)
I already have drives. Less is better.


When I read server hardware I understand also server hardware. It has many
CPUs a lot of ram, redundant power supply etc. It consumes a lot of power
and costs a lot.
For under 500 you can not get any of this and for your use case you do not
need this as well.

Years ago I build one to serve our needs at home. It has 4 virtual CPU and
32GB RAM - it uses 85Watt of power when not under load and it goes to above
100 if I compile software on it. It uses 10Watt more if I run a virtual
machine (virtual box or vmware - I do not test containers, but I assume
this will add overhead). The disks (I have 8) use also 3-5Watt each. Buying
newer - larger disks, pays off, but it is insignificant what you save on
power per year, most is burned by the CPU, so choose CPU and mainboard
carefully.
Unless you do not have to, avoid virtualization - it costs more energy.

I hope this helps


--
Steven Mainor

On August 7, 2019 10:53:52 AM EDT, deloptes  wrote:
>Steven Mainor wrote:
>
>> I would like to keep the budget under $500 not including the hard
>drive(s)
>> I already have drives. Less is better.
>
>When I read server hardware I understand also server hardware. It has
>many
>CPUs a lot of ram, redundant power supply etc. It consumes a lot of
>power
>and costs a lot.
>For under 500 you can not get any of this and for your use case you do
>not
>need this as well.
>
>Years ago I build one to serve our needs at home. It has 4 virtual CPU
>and
>32GB RAM - it uses 85Watt of power when not under load and it goes to
>above
>100 if I compile software on it. It uses 10Watt more if I run a virtual
>machine (virtual box or vmware - I do not test containers, but I assume
>this will add overhead). The disks (I have 8) use also 3-5Watt each.
>Buying
>newer - larger disks, pays off, but it is insignificant what you save
>on
>power per year, most is burned by the CPU, so choose CPU and mainboard
>carefully.
>Unless you do not have to, avoid virtualization - it costs more energy.
>
>I hope this helps

Re: Server hardware advice.

[ghe]

Depends on what you're trying to do.

I run a small domain on a T1 without pictures or audio, so I'm using a
Raspberry Pi 3 as a server. Quite a bit faster than the old PDP-11s the
'Net started out with, and significantly less expensive. And smaller.

My domain used to be a lot larger, but still a T1 and very little
video/audio. I used the bottom-of-the-line Dell servers back then, and
bought my own RAM (Dell gets a lot for a RAM stick). The biggest
advantage to the Dell servers, aside from the reliability of the
components (over 15 years, I never had one fail), was that they could be
bought without the Windows tax.

If you're looking to do a full blown Google level server on a 10G
connection, advice there is above my pay scale...

-- 
Glenn English

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 05:12:20PM +0200, deloptes wrote:

Michael Stone wrote:

Newer server hardware is much more power efficient and will draw very
little power when idle. This is one of the drawbacks to saving money by
using old hardware. (You can still use old hardware, just be sure it's
new enough that it's from the era when power efficiency became a thing.)


I am not sure who you are answering to. 


What's confusing about the attribution and text that I quoted?


I recently looked at HP DL360 and
DL380 Gen10. Yes indeed they are more power efficient compared to Gen9 in
terms they provide more calculation cycles for the same power, but this can
not be compared to a PC.


HP g9 and g10 are both well past the dawn of the era of low idle 
consumption so there aren't huge differences to be found there. The base 
power consumption of that class of system is rather higher than a small 
desktop primarily because of redundancy and BMC (IPMI/remote 
management)--not the CPU. A different server chassis & motherboard 
choice will result in much lower base consumption, if the redundancy and 
remote management aren't needed. But even the HP DLs of the g9/g10 era 
can idle at around half the 85W you mentioned. (Whereas a comparable g6 
might have idled over 100W, and even older servers idled at 300 or 
400W.) The point is that it's not correct to assume that a "server" will 
have a high idle consumption, and if power efficiency is a goal it's 
achievable through reasonable selection of components. (Conversely, a 
"desktop" may have higher power consumption if it has a beefy GPU, and 
older desktops have much higher idle power just like older servers.)

Re: Server hardware advice.

[deloptes]

Michael Stone wrote:

> Newer server hardware is much more power efficient and will draw very
> little power when idle. This is one of the drawbacks to saving money by
> using old hardware. (You can still use old hardware, just be sure it's
> new enough that it's from the era when power efficiency became a thing.)

I am not sure who you are answering to. I recently looked at HP DL360 and
DL380 Gen10. Yes indeed they are more power efficient compared to Gen9 in
terms they provide more calculation cycles for the same power, but this can
not be compared to a PC.

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 04:53:52PM +0200, deloptes wrote:

Years ago I build one to serve our needs at home. It has 4 virtual CPU and
32GB RAM - it uses 85Watt of power when not under load and it goes to above
100 if I compile software on it. It uses 10Watt more if I run a virtual
machine (virtual box or vmware - I do not test containers, but I assume
this will add overhead). 


Newer server hardware is much more power efficient and will draw very 
little power when idle. This is one of the drawbacks to saving money by 
using old hardware. (You can still use old hardware, just be sure it's 
new enough that it's from the era when power efficiency became a thing.)

Re: Server hardware advice.

[deloptes]

Steven Mainor wrote:

> I would like to keep the budget under $500 not including the hard drive(s)
> I already have drives. Less is better.

When I read server hardware I understand also server hardware. It has many
CPUs a lot of ram, redundant power supply etc. It consumes a lot of power
and costs a lot.
For under 500 you can not get any of this and for your use case you do not
need this as well.

Years ago I build one to serve our needs at home. It has 4 virtual CPU and
32GB RAM - it uses 85Watt of power when not under load and it goes to above
100 if I compile software on it. It uses 10Watt more if I run a virtual
machine (virtual box or vmware - I do not test containers, but I assume
this will add overhead). The disks (I have 8) use also 3-5Watt each. Buying
newer - larger disks, pays off, but it is insignificant what you save on
power per year, most is burned by the CPU, so choose CPU and mainboard
carefully.
Unless you do not have to, avoid virtualization - it costs more energy.

I hope this helps

Re: Server hardware advice.

[mick crane]

On 2019-08-07 11:13, Nektarios Katakis wrote:

On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:08:30 -0400
Steven Mainor  wrote:


You are correct. That was an oversight.

Of all the items on that page I could probably afford the screwdriver
and the heatsinks.

I would like to keep the budget under $500 not including the hard
drive(s) I already have drives. Less is better. --
Steven Mainor

On August 7, 2019 1:52:15 AM EDT, Richard Hector
 wrote:
>On 7/08/19 5:29 PM, Steven Mainor wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a
>> primary
>focus on
>> security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will
>> serve 3
>to 5
>> people at most.
>>
>> My requirements are:
>>
>> A server setup that can be run with completely open source
>> software
>and
>> doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything
>> closed
>source for
>> this particular project.
>>
>> A gigabit ethernet port.
>>
>> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.
>>
>> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail
>> server
>from an
>> encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput
>saving and
>> reading files from nextcloud.
>>
>> I would just build something x86 based but the amd/intel Platform
>Security
>> Processor/IME stuff makes me nervous.
>>
>> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the
>> ones
>listed
>> here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW
>>
>> I like the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but I am not sure the processor
>> will
>be enough
>> to handle the overhead from an encrypted hard drive. I also don't
>like that it
>> is only 32-bit since that will limit the file size nextcloud can
>handle as I
>> understand it.
>>
>> Is there anything similar to the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but more
>powerful or is
>> there a better option I haven't read about yet?
>
>You haven't mentioned a budget, but strong emphasis on security and
>openness ...
>
>https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/ ?
>
>Richard


I have a similar home setup and have to say that with the mail service
and seafile server (and a few smaller services) running in docker the
setup the PC is already consuming 1G of ram. I m using an old PC. I
wouldnt suggest a less powerful box as you will run out of ram.
If you need fanless checkout an intel nuc. Debian should run fine with
it although I think it will need some drivers from the non-free repos.

Regards,


I use old Lenovos which are quiet and so cheap (20UKP)you can have one 
for each job.

Don't bother with cloud but scp files about.
Don't know how the webmail would manage with multiple connections.

mick
--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Reco]

Hi.

On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 05:58:57AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote:
> Thanks for the reply. Those seem like options to consider. The
> pre-orders for the helios4 seem to be sold out for now. 

They are currently at fourth "campaign", i.e. they're manufacturing a
fourth batch. Supply is limited (they produce like a thousand boards per
batch), your best bet is a preorder (I got mine at their second
"campaign").

Hopefully they do fifth.

Reco

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Steven Mainor (2019-08-07 12:04:35)
> Perhaps you are right about usb 2.0. And the Olimex A64-OLinuXino does 
> seem like a solid option otherwise.
> 
> I wasn't able to verify which usb the Olimex A64-OLinuXino had. It 
> didn't specifically say on the specs page. And the github link for the 
> schematic seems to be broken.
> 
> https://github.com/OLIMEX/OLINUXINO/blob/master/HARDWARE/A64-OLinuXino/A64-OlinuXino_Rev_C.pdf

They reorganized and updated that git.  Try step back to 
https://github.com/OLIMEX/OLINUXINO/tree/master/HARDWARE/A64-OLinuXino

See also https://linux-sunxi.org/Olimex_A64-OLinuXino


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: Server hardware advice.

[Nektarios Katakis]

On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:08:30 -0400
Steven Mainor  wrote:

> You are correct. That was an oversight.
> 
> Of all the items on that page I could probably afford the screwdriver
> and the heatsinks.
> 
> I would like to keep the budget under $500 not including the hard
> drive(s) I already have drives. Less is better. --
> Steven Mainor
> 
> On August 7, 2019 1:52:15 AM EDT, Richard Hector
>  wrote:
> >On 7/08/19 5:29 PM, Steven Mainor wrote:  
> >> Hi all,
> >> 
> >> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a
> >> primary  
> >focus on   
> >> security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will
> >> serve 3  
> >to 5   
> >> people at most.
> >> 
> >> My requirements are:
> >> 
> >> A server setup that can be run with completely open source
> >> software  
> >and   
> >> doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything
> >> closed  
> >source for   
> >> this particular project.
> >> 
> >> A gigabit ethernet port.
> >> 
> >> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.
> >> 
> >> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail
> >> server  
> >from an   
> >> encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput  
> >saving and   
> >> reading files from nextcloud.
> >> 
> >> I would just build something x86 based but the amd/intel Platform  
> >Security   
> >> Processor/IME stuff makes me nervous.
> >> 
> >> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the
> >> ones  
> >listed   
> >> here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW
> >> 
> >> I like the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but I am not sure the processor
> >> will  
> >be enough   
> >> to handle the overhead from an encrypted hard drive. I also don't  
> >like that it   
> >> is only 32-bit since that will limit the file size nextcloud can  
> >handle as I   
> >> understand it.
> >> 
> >> Is there anything similar to the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but more  
> >powerful or is   
> >> there a better option I haven't read about yet?  
> >
> >You haven't mentioned a budget, but strong emphasis on security and
> >openness ...
> >
> >https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/ ?
> >
> >Richard  

I have a similar home setup and have to say that with the mail service
and seafile server (and a few smaller services) running in docker the
setup the PC is already consuming 1G of ram. I m using an old PC. I
wouldnt suggest a less powerful box as you will run out of ram.
If you need fanless checkout an intel nuc. Debian should run fine with
it although I think it will need some drivers from the non-free repos.

Regards,
-- 
Nektarios Katakis

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Steven Mainor]

Perhaps you are right about usb 2.0. And the Olimex A64-OLinuXino does seem 
like a solid option otherwise.

I wasn't able to verify which usb the Olimex A64-OLinuXino had. It didn't 
specifically say on the specs page. And the github link for the schematic seems 
to be broken. 

https://github.com/OLIMEX/OLINUXINO/blob/master/HARDWARE/A64-OLinuXino/A64-OlinuXino_Rev_C.pdf
--
Steven Mainor

On August 7, 2019 4:21:25 AM EDT, Jonas Smedegaard  wrote:
>Quoting Reco (2019-08-07 08:53:52)
>> On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 01:29:21AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote:
>> > I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary
>
>> > focus on security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that 
>> > will serve 3 to 5 people at most.
>> > 
>> > My requirements are:
>> > 
>> > A server setup that can be run with completely open source software
>
>> > and doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything 
>> > closed source for this particular project.
>> > 
>> > A gigabit ethernet port.
>> > 
>> > A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.
>> > 
>> > Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server
>
>> > from an encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate 
>> > throughput saving and reading files from nextcloud.
>> 
>>  These fit all your requirements (i.e. it'll run stock buster kernel 
>> without any additional firmware):
>> 
>> Helios4 - [1]. 4 SATA ports controller attached to PCI-E.
>> GnuBee - [2]. 6 SATA ports attached to PCI-E.
>> Odroid HC2 - [3]. Single SATA port, attached to USB bus.
>
>No powerful computers exist today completely without non-free parts: 
>Since you point to Open Source Hardware below, beware that none of
>above 
>devices are OSHWA certified: https://certification.oshwa.org/list.html
>- 
>if however your freedom concerns are limited to _software_ parts then
>it 
>is easier: Look for boards supported in mainline Linux and u-boot, and 
>supported in Debian!
>
>Disregarding OSHW I agree that above options are good highlights. 
>Additionally I suggest Olimex A64-Olinuxino and ESPRESSObin, both 
>(unlike above options) known to be mainlined and work with Debian 
>Buster.
>
>Personally, for hosting mail + Nextcloud for a small team I would 
>tolerate USB2.0 and use the OSHWA certified board Olimex A64-Olinuxino.
>
>Only for heavy professional demands (e.g. an advertising agency pushing
>
>big files across a LAN all the time) I would use a Helios4.
>
>
>> > So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones 
>> > listed here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW
>
>Happy to see that list being of use beyond the FreedomBox project and
>my 
>own competing https://solidbox.org/ :-)
>
>Please note that above list is limited to more consumer-oriented
>devices 
>than your spec needs - e.g. must be sold with a proper case and be 
>cheaper than you tolerate.
>
>
>> That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in the
>
>> day.
>
>Care to elaborate?
>
>
> - Jonas
>
>-- 
> * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
> * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
>
> [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Steven Mainor]

Thanks for the reply. Those seem like options to consider. The pre-orders for 
the helios4 seem to be sold out for now. 
--
Steven Mainor

On August 7, 2019 2:53:52 AM EDT, Reco  wrote:
>On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 01:29:21AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary
>focus on 
>> security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3
>to 5 
>> people at most.
>> 
>> My requirements are:
>> 
>> A server setup that can be run with completely open source software
>and 
>> doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed
>source for 
>> this particular project.
>> 
>> A gigabit ethernet port.
>> 
>> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.
>> 
>> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server
>from an 
>> encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput
>saving and 
>> reading files from nextcloud.
>
> These fit all your requirements (i.e. it'll run stock buster kernel
>without any additional firmware):
>
>Helios4 - [1]. 4 SATA ports controller attached to PCI-E.
>GnuBee - [2]. 6 SATA ports attached to PCI-E.
>Odroid HC2 - [3]. Single SATA port, attached to USB bus.
>
>
>> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones
>listed 
>> here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW
>
>That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in the
>day. 
>
>Reco
>
>[1] https://kobol.io/
>[2] http://gnubee.org/
>[3] https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-hc2-home-cloud-two/

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Reco (2019-08-07 10:53:35)
> On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 10:21:25AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > > That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in 
> > > the day.
> > 
> > Care to elaborate?
> 
> Specifically it gave me an idea to buy that Linksys WRT1200.
> Works for me since stretch, the only disadvantages are the need to 
> build an out-of-tree kernel module (mwlwifi) for WiFi and feed it 
> non-free firmware.
> But I needed a router, the thing fit the need.

So when you wrote "That list is outdated somewhat" you really meant 
"That list didn't fit my needs and was inspirational even then."

Great to hear that!


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: Server hardware advice.

[Reco]

On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 10:21:25AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in the 
> > day.
> 
> Care to elaborate?

Specifically it gave me an idea to buy that Linksys WRT1200.
Works for me since stretch, the only disadvantages are the need to build
an out-of-tree kernel module (mwlwifi) for WiFi and feed it non-free
firmware.
But I needed a router, the thing fit the need.

Reco

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting john doe (2019-08-07 09:33:35)
> On 8/7/2019 8:53 AM, Reco wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 01:29:21AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote:
> >> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary 
> >> focus on security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that 
> >> will serve 3 to 5 people at most.
> >>
> >> My requirements are:
> >>
> >> A server setup that can be run with completely open source software 
> >> and doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything 
> >> closed source for this particular project.
> >>
> >> A gigabit ethernet port.
> >>
> >> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.
> >>
> >> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server 
> >> from an encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate 
> >> throughput saving and reading files from nextcloud.
> >
> >  These fit all your requirements (i.e. it'll run stock buster kernel 
> > without any additional firmware):
> >
> > Helios4 - [1]. 4 SATA ports controller attached to PCI-E.
> > GnuBee - [2]. 6 SATA ports attached to PCI-E.
> > Odroid HC2 - [3]. Single SATA port, attached to USB bus.
> >
> >
> >> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones 
> >> listed here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW
> >
> > That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in 
> > the day.
> >
> > Reco
> >
> > [1] https://kobol.io/
> > [2] http://gnubee.org/
> > [3] https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-hc2-home-cloud-two/
> >
> 
> I don't have a room dedicated to my devices, is there any solution 
> that is fan less?
> Url (3) looks to be the case.

The ODroid board ships with huge passive cooling which helps if the room 
is adequately cool - and otherwise will "throttle" - i.e. run at lower 
speeds to avoid meltdown.

Heat is indeed a reason to consider other boards than above.  My 
recommendation is to buy the industrial-grade A64-OLinuXino-2Ge8G-IND
https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A64/A64-OLinuXino/open-source-hardware

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: Server hardware advice.

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Reco (2019-08-07 08:53:52)
> On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 01:29:21AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote:
> > I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary 
> > focus on security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that 
> > will serve 3 to 5 people at most.
> > 
> > My requirements are:
> > 
> > A server setup that can be run with completely open source software 
> > and doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything 
> > closed source for this particular project.
> > 
> > A gigabit ethernet port.
> > 
> > A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.
> > 
> > Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server 
> > from an encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate 
> > throughput saving and reading files from nextcloud.
> 
>  These fit all your requirements (i.e. it'll run stock buster kernel 
> without any additional firmware):
> 
> Helios4 - [1]. 4 SATA ports controller attached to PCI-E.
> GnuBee - [2]. 6 SATA ports attached to PCI-E.
> Odroid HC2 - [3]. Single SATA port, attached to USB bus.

No powerful computers exist today completely without non-free parts: 
Since you point to Open Source Hardware below, beware that none of above 
devices are OSHWA certified: https://certification.oshwa.org/list.html - 
if however your freedom concerns are limited to _software_ parts then it 
is easier: Look for boards supported in mainline Linux and u-boot, and 
supported in Debian!

Disregarding OSHW I agree that above options are good highlights. 
Additionally I suggest Olimex A64-Olinuxino and ESPRESSObin, both 
(unlike above options) known to be mainlined and work with Debian 
Buster.

Personally, for hosting mail + Nextcloud for a small team I would 
tolerate USB2.0 and use the OSHWA certified board Olimex A64-Olinuxino.

Only for heavy professional demands (e.g. an advertising agency pushing 
big files across a LAN all the time) I would use a Helios4.


> > So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones 
> > listed here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW

Happy to see that list being of use beyond the FreedomBox project and my 
own competing https://solidbox.org/ :-)

Please note that above list is limited to more consumer-oriented devices 
than your spec needs - e.g. must be sold with a proper case and be 
cheaper than you tolerate.


> That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in the 
> day.

Care to elaborate?


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


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Re: Server hardware advice.

[john doe]

On 8/7/2019 8:53 AM, Reco wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 01:29:21AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary focus on
>> security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 to 5
>> people at most.
>>
>> My requirements are:
>>
>> A server setup that can be run with completely open source software and
>> doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed source 
>> for
>> this particular project.
>>
>> A gigabit ethernet port.
>>
>> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.
>>
>> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server from an
>> encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput saving and
>> reading files from nextcloud.
>
>  These fit all your requirements (i.e. it'll run stock buster kernel
> without any additional firmware):
>
> Helios4 - [1]. 4 SATA ports controller attached to PCI-E.
> GnuBee - [2]. 6 SATA ports attached to PCI-E.
> Odroid HC2 - [3]. Single SATA port, attached to USB bus.
>
>
>> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones listed
>> here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW
>
> That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in the
> day.
>
> Reco
>
> [1] https://kobol.io/
> [2] http://gnubee.org/
> [3] https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-hc2-home-cloud-two/
>

I don't have a room dedicated to my devices, is there any solution that
is fan less?
Url (3) looks to be the case.

--
John Doe

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Reco]

On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 01:29:21AM -0400, Steven Mainor wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary focus on 
> security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 to 5 
> people at most.
> 
> My requirements are:
> 
> A server setup that can be run with completely open source software and 
> doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed source 
> for 
> this particular project.
> 
> A gigabit ethernet port.
> 
> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.
> 
> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server from an 
> encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput saving and 
> reading files from nextcloud.

 These fit all your requirements (i.e. it'll run stock buster kernel
without any additional firmware):

Helios4 - [1]. 4 SATA ports controller attached to PCI-E.
GnuBee - [2]. 6 SATA ports attached to PCI-E.
Odroid HC2 - [3]. Single SATA port, attached to USB bus.


> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones listed 
> here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW

That list is outdated somewhat. But it gave me good ideas back in the
day. 

Reco

[1] https://kobol.io/
[2] http://gnubee.org/
[3] https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-hc2-home-cloud-two/

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Steven Mainor]

You are correct. That was an oversight.

Of all the items on that page I could probably afford the screwdriver and the 
heatsinks.

I would like to keep the budget under $500 not including the hard drive(s) I 
already have drives. Less is better. 
--
Steven Mainor

On August 7, 2019 1:52:15 AM EDT, Richard Hector  wrote:
>On 7/08/19 5:29 PM, Steven Mainor wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary
>focus on 
>> security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3
>to 5 
>> people at most.
>> 
>> My requirements are:
>> 
>> A server setup that can be run with completely open source software
>and 
>> doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed
>source for 
>> this particular project.
>> 
>> A gigabit ethernet port.
>> 
>> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.
>> 
>> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server
>from an 
>> encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput
>saving and 
>> reading files from nextcloud.
>> 
>> I would just build something x86 based but the amd/intel Platform
>Security 
>> Processor/IME stuff makes me nervous.
>> 
>> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones
>listed 
>> here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW
>> 
>> I like the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but I am not sure the processor will
>be enough 
>> to handle the overhead from an encrypted hard drive. I also don't
>like that it 
>> is only 32-bit since that will limit the file size nextcloud can
>handle as I 
>> understand it.
>> 
>> Is there anything similar to the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but more
>powerful or is 
>> there a better option I haven't read about yet?
>
>You haven't mentioned a budget, but strong emphasis on security and
>openness ...
>
>https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/ ?
>
>Richard

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Richard Hector]

On 7/08/19 5:29 PM, Steven Mainor wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary focus on 
> security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 to 5 
> people at most.
> 
> My requirements are:
> 
> A server setup that can be run with completely open source software and 
> doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed source 
> for 
> this particular project.
> 
> A gigabit ethernet port.
> 
> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.
> 
> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server from an 
> encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput saving and 
> reading files from nextcloud.
> 
> I would just build something x86 based but the amd/intel Platform Security 
> Processor/IME stuff makes me nervous.
> 
> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones listed 
> here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW
> 
> I like the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but I am not sure the processor will be enough 
> to handle the overhead from an encrypted hard drive. I also don't like that 
> it 
> is only 32-bit since that will limit the file size nextcloud can handle as I 
> understand it.
> 
> Is there anything similar to the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but more powerful or is 
> there a better option I haven't read about yet?

You haven't mentioned a budget, but strong emphasis on security and
openness ...

https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/ ?

Richard




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Server hardware advice.

[Steven Mainor]

Hi all,

I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary focus on 
security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 to 5 
people at most.

My requirements are:

A server setup that can be run with completely open source software and 
doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed source for 
this particular project.

A gigabit ethernet port.

A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.

Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server from an 
encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput saving and 
reading files from nextcloud.

I would just build something x86 based but the amd/intel Platform Security 
Processor/IME stuff makes me nervous.

So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones listed 
here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW

I like the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but I am not sure the processor will be enough 
to handle the overhead from an encrypted hard drive. I also don't like that it 
is only 32-bit since that will limit the file size nextcloud can handle as I 
understand it.

Is there anything similar to the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but more powerful or is 
there a better option I haven't read about yet?

--
Steven Mainor