Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
Some thing I wish for are A diagnostic index -- solutions indexed by symptom. IBM once had one of these for OS/2. It starts with common classes of complaints, like, the screen stays black, and ends up in a tree of possibilities. Obvious things like make sure it's turned on. Unobvious things, eventually, like subtle misconfigurations of obscure video cards. And. of course, places for people to report what did and did not work and fill in new things to try. A manually, lovingly maintained index/summary to high-volume lists like debian-user. Naybe this could even be partially automated by allowing debian-users to include search terms in their posts, for initial tentative classification. Either of these could be done within the debian wiki, I suppose. How to structure this so that it is both collaborative and effective is probably a high art. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: tools Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 01:13:55AM -0800, Alvin Oga wrote: webmin is the purrfect example to me of what's broken, but is agoo dstart for beginners that like to point-n-click because if you looked at the files, what to change in the config files would be deep void - it's close but not good enuff for me or for me to tell my customers to use it instead of paying me to fix it especially after they already tried webmin and other tools I've never been able fo figure out what webmin does in sufficient detail to enable me to use it. - tools to find tools .. most of these tools already exists and does work, but there is no one wrapper gui to select the various help me, please problem and resolutions whomever writes a usable wrapper gui will do a fair amt of notoriety and good-famous An index to packages, classifying them by what problems they solve, and a review of how well they solve it. - everything needs to be tested ... - more you know .. the better it will be tested provided time and resources is available for testing vs the oops we lost data.. quick, restore from backups - tools for testing each major apps ... that covers some of the basics of the config problems ... endless list When in doubt, go meta: What I miss is configuration tools that do more than just draw gui-style boxes around the same old incomprehensible configuration syntax that link to documentation -- documentation that fills you into the bigger picture, rather that just the out-of-context microprose most help systems provide. that enable you to learn what's going on under the hood without forcing you to. that tell you which configuration files they are going to modify/create/delete and why that read your configuration files and explain them to you. Of course that would all be easier if there were to be a uniform file format for configuration files. And that might be possible if there were a uniform semantics. I don't think anyone has yet formulated a workable semantic framework for configuration. Or have I missed something important? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: tools Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
hi ya hendrik On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've never been able fo figure out what webmin does in sufficient detail to enable me to use it. i know webmin is broken in terms of creating the correct config files ... ( or good enuff for some .. but not the silly boat i want ) that link to documentation -- documentation that fills you into the bigger picture, rather that just the out-of-context microprose most help systems provide. tough to do that enable you to learn what's going on under the hood without forcing you to. tough to teach by docs... - teaching by example is okay i suppose - teaching what's under the hood will take decades even if you're a speed reader and a genious with iq over 120 that tell you which configuration files they are going to modify/create/delete and why that's where most gui tools screw up big time in modifying/merging/updating old and new changes along with user modified changes that read your configuration files and explain them to you. bedtime story :-) the kernel config gui ain't too bad .. ( simple ) - it tells yo a little about the option - it tells you what to select if you donno - it talls you it can break things if you donno what you're doing - the kernel gui sucks ... if you tell it to skip isdn or flash mem stuff... it insists on popping up all the isdn stuff just to make you click away ( it needs to be context sensitve ) Of course that would all be easier if there were to be a uniform file format for configuration files. And that might be possible if there were a uniform semantics. it looks like rss, css, and html style is taking over and its not much better than ole fashin man pages I don't think anyone has yet formulated a workable semantic framework for configuration. Or have I missed something important? nope ... its on the horizon c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: tools Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 08:09:57AM -0800, Alvin Oga wrote: hi ya hendrik On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've never been able fo figure out what webmin does in sufficient detail to enable me to use it. i know webmin is broken in terms of creating the correct config files ... ( or good enuff for some .. but not the silly boat i want ) that link to documentation -- documentation that fills you into the bigger picture, rather that just the out-of-context microprose most help systems provide. tough to do I know. that enable you to learn what's going on under the hood without forcing you to. tough to teach by docs... - teaching by example is okay i suppose - teaching what's under the hood will take decades even if you're a speed reader and a genious with iq over 120 I know. Writing that kind of documentation is hard. It takes many of the same skills as are needed for writing the code, and others as well. Even if you're a speed reader, speed writer, and a genius. And after it's ween written, it's hard to navigate through a world of web pages and other stuff to find the bit you need. that tell you which configuration files they are going to modify/create/delete and why that's where most gui tools screw up big time in modifying/merging/updating old and new changes along with user modified changes that read your configuration files and explain them to you. bedtime story :-) the kernel config gui ain't too bad .. ( simple ) - it tells yo a little about the option - it tells you what to select if you donno - it talls you it can break things if you donno what you're doing I know. The kernel config gui is one of the bright lights in a bleak landscape. -- hendrik - the kernel gui sucks ... if you tell it to skip isdn or flash mem stuff... it insists on popping up all the isdn stuff just to make you click away ( it needs to be context sensitve ) Of course that would all be easier if there were to be a uniform file format for configuration files. And that might be possible if there were a uniform semantics. it looks like rss, css, and html style is taking over and its not much better than ole fashin man pages I don't think anyone has yet formulated a workable semantic framework for configuration. Or have I missed something important? nope ... its on the horizon Is it even that close? c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tools Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
hi ya andy On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Andy Streich wrote: But I expect you to have something in mind as well -- something of your own that has motivated you to create a new Debian site. yup.. :-) Anyway, I'd love to see not just docs for new users but configuration software that plays an active role in plugging the holes. Don't just give me better things to read (although that's great), give me a tool that finds and fixes problems. you want a tool to find other tools :-) most of the config tools exists .. some good .. some terrible .. and depending on the users level of requirements, some of the tools are worthless if it doesn't do the remaining 5% - 10% of the work correctly - ie.. faster to add/fix the missing line in the config files than to play with tools that is basically broken webmin is the purrfect example to me of what's broken, but is agoo dstart for beginners that like to point-n-click because if you looked at the files, what to change in the config files would be deep void - it's close but not good enuff for me or for me to tell my customers to use it instead of paying me to fix it especially after they already tried webmin and other tools - tools to find tools .. most of these tools already exists and does work, but there is no one wrapper gui to select the various help me, please problem and resolutions whomever writes a usable wrapper gui will do a fair amt of notoriety and good-famous - everything needs to be tested ... - more you know .. the better it will be tested provided time and resources is available for testing vs the oops we lost data.. quick, restore from backups - tools for testing each major apps - tools for testing hw compatibility ... just try and cross your fingers - tools for dns config - tools for sound config - tools for kernel config - tools for modules config - tools for raid config - tools for printer config - tools for secure imaps/pop3 config - tools for mta config - tools for antivirus config and testing - tools for anti-spam that actually work without too much time wasted - tools for webserver config - tools for db config - tools for samba config - tools for backups - tools for copying xx to yyy ( anything to anywhere ) - tools for ... blah blah ... - tools for general how to change from foo-version to woody to sarge or sid or foo-bar - tools for security hardening - tools for security audits - tools for buffer overflows - tools for out-of-date or obsolete apps - tools for more security blah-blahs - tools for disks optimization - tools for kernel optimization - tools for nfs optimization - tools for cpu/memory optimization - ... that covers some of the basics of the config problems ... endless list c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
My ideal website would be one that combined the material in the really useful http://www.debian-administration.org/ :) with simpler guides for less experienced users (such as, the basics of aptitude, how to install Nvidia/ATI 3d drivers, or the basics of Debian-specific commands like dpkg-reconfigure or invoke-rc.d) I think that all three of those things have been covered in the past - one downside to the current site is that searching is suboptimal. I haven't come up with a great solution to that yet, although I'm tempted to start listing every article posted in a given month on an archive page to possibly help. and forums where folks could discuss things, ask questions and point out helpful tips like where good apt sources are. There might also be a news section where Debian-specific items were announced or interviews run There are existing sections for News and for Questions, only the latter seems to have attracted attention. To be honest I post most questions I receive, but there are more rejections than in any other area. Mostly when I reject a question I'll suggest that the submitter posts to debian-user, or looks at linuxquestions.org. (e.g. a recent poster asking how to upgrade from Stable - Testing I pointed at the apt.sources documentation and suggested problems should be mailed to this list.) I spent a long time considering the introduction of forums a few months ago, but ultimately decided that forums.debian.net was a good place to send people instead. (Part of that was because I couldn't think of a good, secure, and easy to hack forum package. [we'd need to link the user accounts together on the main site and the forum]). Perhaps that could be a decision worth revisiting, but I can say that I have received very few positive response when I've raised the topic in the past, so I don't expect it would work out much differently. (there is no shortage of Debian developers to interview or ask for pieces from). I have never once asked somebody to write a piece for the site, I would like to do so, but I'd rather wait for people to submit pieces that they care about. This happens less frequently than I'd like, but more often than I'd feared. I'd say that over time outside involvement has certainly increased and for a site just over a year old it is doing pretty well all things considered. Steve -- Debian GNU/Linux System Administration http://www.debian-administration.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
On Tuesday, 6 December 2005 at 21:43:15 -0600, Josh King wrote: Hey all, Currently I am the lead admin/webmaster of DebCentral.org. I really would like to take a few minutes out of your life to gather some inputs on an idea I have. [...] subject was the basis of an article written by a colleague of mine, Christian, webmaster of Debian-News [1]. After that article, he and I began discussing ways we could cooperate [...] I'm looking to the community to maybe help us figure out the best way to handle this. Any ideas or suggestions for what we all could do to better [...] Hmm... what is it about the web nowadays -- so many sites which are really little more than excuses to include sponsored links (aka adverts) which have little or no relevance to the word or phrase linked. I don't even know what the technology to insert those links is (they don't seem to show in the source listing at a very quick glance, but I guess its a java thing). I'm half inclined to ignore this post as merely promotional, but debcentral looks fairly interesting, even if I couldn't create an account on its wiki (that part of the form missing). The other site mentioned led me to a vaporous advertizing site on the first link I tried. But just the same, the idea of combining the various Debian resources does seem appealing if it leads to less redundancy and more specialization. My thought is that a single debwiki could be used to assemble all the other resources. It could be set up so that the 'community' would leave comments, perhaps with a score (marks out of ten) for the competing offerings. That could allow the various webmasters to prune their low-scoring parts and specialize in the areas they do well. It would avoid the need for everyone to agree in advance and allow a sort of 'evolutionary' growth. Eventually the combination of the central wiki and the linked sites might become a reasonably viable organism. The separate webmasters would get better at the areas they found themselves specializing in. The central wiki might need some careful management as it grew to give it a clear structure. Has anybody written code for organic wiki management -- putting most visited and most linked parts near the centre, and ultimately allowing the unvisited and low-scoring bits to wither and drop off? Perhaps Josh could turn his site inside-out and add the links to all the others he has been investigating, so as to create the animal I describe. Or perhaps it's a rotten idea. -- richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
Richard Lyons wrote: I'm half inclined to ignore this post as merely promotional, but debcentral looks fairly interesting, even if I couldn't create an account on its wiki (that part of the form missing). Thanks for the ideas and suggestions. I am hoping that we can accomplish some kind of agreement, and your suggestion has some possibilities. As for the wiki registration being broken, I will have to look into that, and I apologize sincerely for it. The person responsible for maintaining it has been in the midst of moving to a new house and hasn't been available for a few days, so I really have no good explanation as to why its not working. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
Josh King wrote: Hey all, Currently I am the lead admin/webmaster of DebCentral.org. I really would like to take a few minutes out of your life to gather some inputs on an idea I have. [snip] I wonder if you or colleagues have taken a good look at what other distros and their users are doing with regard to websites. Perhaps some ideas may come of it? The only other ones I know well are SuSE and Ubuntu. SuSE's online presence is also a little bitty and spread around, largely because of the way the distro evolved before Novell took it over. My ideal website would be one that combined the material in the really useful http://www.debian-administration.org/ with simpler guides for less experienced users (such as, the basics of aptitude, how to install Nvidia/ATI 3d drivers, or the basics of Debian-specific commands like dpkg-reconfigure or invoke-rc.d) and forums where folks could discuss things, ask questions and point out helpful tips like where good apt sources are. There might also be a news section where Debian-specific items were announced or interviews run (there is no shortage of Debian developers to interview or ask for pieces from). However, in my experience running a website is a great deal of hard work and many people start to flag after three months or so. Many other people enjoy running their own show and wouldn't want to combine into a bigger one, other than as, perhaps, an item in a web ring. I guess your questions are pertinent and quite hard to answer, because there is already quite a lot of information out there even if it can be hard to find and is divided between various sites. Good luck, anyway! Many folks talk about doing this but few get off their backsides and make the effort. :) Fish -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
Antony Gelberg wrote: [snip] I like the one-question FAQ: I want to get more involved with DebCentral, what can I do to help? WHo (sic) do I need to contact? What an informative resource. The OP's post was sincere and his questions worthwhile. His site is also new and so not yet fully worked out, so far as I can tell. I think he deserves more than you appear able to give. :) Fish -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
Josh King wrote: Don't take this the wrong way, but you asked. What is the point of your site existing? What does it achieve that has not already been achieved elsewhere, better? I like the one-question FAQ: I want to get more involved with DebCentral, what can I do to help? WHo (sic) do I need to contact? What an informative resource. To answer your first question, please read what I originally posted. I think that pretty much clearly defines what I would *like* to do. As for the FAQ comment, I'm really missing your point. The answer is pretty clearly stated. For a site thats only been around a short time, how many frequently asked questions would you expect? Maybe just make up a few and claim they're frequently asked as many do? Anyway, the point of this post was to gather ideas and suggestions. Do you have any? If you don't like it the way it is, then please give some suggestions or ideas to improve it. Jump in and help out, or at least give us an example of someplace you would consider to be doing things better. Otherwise I would return your question and ask what the point of your post existing is? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
I wonder if you or colleagues have taken a good look at what other distros and their users are doing with regard to websites. Perhaps some ideas may come of it? The only other ones I know well are SuSE and Ubuntu. SuSE's online presence is also a little bitty and spread around, largely because of the way the distro evolved before Novell took it over. I have looked at them a bit, but I'm really hoping to get a sense of what the Debian community would prefer also. I think Ubuntu's sites, both official and third party sites, such as ours, are done very well. I know also that the tone of those sites seems to be very welcoming and inclusive. From inputs I have gathered this far, I would say that that tone is one of the real strengths of such sites. My ideal website would be one that combined the material in the really useful http://www.debian-administration.org/ with simpler guides for less experienced users (such as, the basics of aptitude, how to install Nvidia/ATI 3d drivers, or the basics of Debian-specific commands like dpkg-reconfigure or invoke-rc.d) and forums where folks could discuss things, ask questions and point out helpful tips like where good apt sources are. There might also be a news section where Debian-specific items were announced or interviews run (there is no shortage of Debian developers to interview or ask for pieces from). Excellent suggestion. In fact, Steve emailed myself and my colleague from Debian-News to get the scoop on what we're trying to accomplish. I agree that the documentation for new users would probably be a very useful asset; I think someplace welcoming to new users would be a great idea. However, in my experience running a website is a great deal of hard work and many people start to flag after three months or so. Many other people enjoy running their own show and wouldn't want to combine into a bigger one, other than as, perhaps, an item in a web ring. Agreed. I have worked on several projects where this exact thing happened. In fact, some of my original volunteers have begun to peter out a bit already. The web-ring idea has been suggested to me by several people. While I agree with the sentiment, I really hate web-rings. Perhaps some kind of gateway site would work? Take something like http://linuxhomepage.com as a base model with the RSS feeds, possibly some way for visitors to review/comment on the sites? I guess your questions are pertinent and quite hard to answer, because there is already quite a lot of information out there even if it can be hard to find and is divided between various sites. Good luck, anyway! Many folks talk about doing this but few get off their backsides and make the effort. I really appreciate you taking the time to comment. I'm hoping that with a sufficiently motived group, we can get things moving and sustained. That is one problem I have seen with some of the more established sites; they seem to have slowed to a crawl in some cases. Many people have commented to me that they had tried to contact those existing sites to volunteer to help out but either didn't receive a response or other such problems. Hopefully we can get them involved in some way as well. Please keep the ideas and comments coming; the more inputs the better. Thanks! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
Antony Gelberg wrote: I don't understand what you want to do other than run a website and collaborate with other websites, whatever that means in this instance. What I want to do is cut down on the redundancy. Whether I run it or not is irrelevant. I would like to be involved, yes. Collaborating in this instance means not having 10 websites that post the same thing over and over again; working to specialize to limit overlaps, maybe even being open to trying new things and ideas. As for the FAQ comment, I'm really missing your point. The answer is pretty clearly stated. For a site thats only been around a short time, how many frequently asked questions would you expect? Maybe just make up a few and claim they're frequently asked as many do? Oh. Is the one that is there frequently asked? Yes. Of all the communications I have received regarding the website, it is far and away #1; hence the title of 'FAQ'. Anyway, the point of this post was to gather ideas and suggestions. Do you have any? Yes. Put your efforts into improving existing infrastructure rather than reinventing the wheel. Such as? You can only improve areas you can affect. For example, taking from your list below, how would you suggest people get involved with improving planet.debian.net? At the time we began forming, Debianplanet.org had basically gone dead for almost 2 months, and had been extremely sporadic prior to that. Several people have told me that they attempted to contact that site over the course of that period and received no response, so they assumed it was dead for good. I can't verify those claims; just mentioning it to illustrate my point. If you don't like it the way it is, then please give some suggestions or ideas to improve it. Jump in and help out, or at least give us an example of someplace you would consider to be doing things better. Given that your site is embryonic, I would consider almost every well-known debian resource is doing things better. Examples are: http://www.debian.org/ http://www.debian-administration.org/ http://www.debianplanet.org/ http://www.aboutdebian.com/ http://planet.debian.net/ http://www.linuks.mine.nu/debian-faq-wiki/ So, by virtue of being embryonic, things are done poorly? I'm not trying to be difficult, but it seems you're implying that a site must be well-established to be better? I know of and visit all of those sites often; some are very well done and they all serve their purpose I suppose. But comparing some of them to what I have been discussing here is really apples to oranges. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to respond to this. I honestly do value your opinion, don't take this the wrong way and think I do not. But I get the impression that your suggestion is that we should all just forget about it and maintain the status quo. If that is your overall opinion, then I would respectfully disagree. If no one ever started something new, that list would be quite bare. If nothing else then maybe we can affect some positive change this way, maybe we find a niche and fill it for those who would welcome it, who knows? If I had all the answers I wouldn't be asking here. If I were wanting to do this just for my own sake, why would I even bother asking for suggestions? I just feel that there is plenty of room for a different and new approach to this entire subject. As was noted in another post in this thread, other distros have multiple websites run by users, why shouldn't Debian? I don't think that should be discouraged as long as it is done properly (i.e. making it clear that it *is* a third party resource and not an official Debian project, etc.). I would like to think that if we can gather some inputs and work out a way to fill a niche then that possibility deserves exploration; thats the point of this entire thread. IMO change and progress are good things as is trying to work together. I am hoping that if we gather the ideas and suggestions, we can provide something that people want and will use. If it fails, at least we can say we tried. One positive effect that has already happened from our work is that several members of DebCentral have moved from various derivatives and are now running mainline Debian. With a bit of support they realized that they already knew the basics of a Debian system from their experiences with derivatives, and all of them are very happy and satisfied with their new software. If nothing else, maybe we can educate some people and grow some into productive members of the Debian community. I would call that a niche that would have a positive effect. Anyway, I hope this finally explains to you exactly where I am coming from on this. Its my opinion, and something I believe in and want to attempt as my way of trying to give something back; hopefully it will be the first of many times I have the opportunity to help out and give back to Debian. I respect your opinion, and appreciate your time. If you're set against these ideas,
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
Mark Crean wrote: However, in my experience running a website is a great deal of hard work and many people start to flag after three months or so. Many other people enjoy running their own show and wouldn't want to combine into a bigger one, other than as, perhaps, an item in a web ring. Which is why all these sites exist. The personal requirement for individual recognition superceding the requirement of the group. A form of grafitti, really. I guess your questions are pertinent and quite hard to answer, because there is already quite a lot of information out there even if it can be hard to find and is divided between various sites. Good luck, anyway! Many folks talk about doing this but few get off their backsides and make the effort. True also. Have a look around, find /relevant/ sites (including Debian.org), and form a web-ring, or at least link to them all, so as to enforce the power of the whole. After that, don't write anything and mount it on the site unless it is really worth saying, even if it does mean a wait of three months between articles. Substance will keep you in people's bookmark folders, effluvient goes to /dev/null. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
On Wednesday 07 December 2005 01:26 pm, Katipo wrote: Mark Crean wrote: However, in my experience running a website is a great deal of hard work and many people start to flag after three months or so. Many other people enjoy running their own show and wouldn't want to combine into a bigger one, other than as, perhaps, an item in a web ring. Which is why all these sites exist. The personal requirement for individual recognition superceding the requirement of the group. A form of grafitti, really. Sometimes it's about the personal requirement for individual recognition, but other times it has more to do with an individual having a vision and trying it out. That's not something we should be pushing back on. Sure it would be nice if all these people found a way to cooperatively produce all the Debian-related material we all wish for -- and that should always be tried. But figuring out how to become part of the relevant group, learning who needs to be influenced, and, frankly, playing the politics that are always part of a group can sap the creative energy from a person with a good idea. My hope is that many people will create good stuff that's useful to a wide audience and /then/ find ways to hook it efficiently into all the other good stuff out there, if that happens to be the way they are most productive. Andy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
Andy Streich wrote: Sometimes it's about the personal requirement for individual recognition, but other times it has more to do with an individual having a vision and trying it out. That's not something we should be pushing back on. Sure it would be nice if all these people found a way to cooperatively produce all the Debian-related material we all wish for -- and that should always be tried. But figuring out how to become part of the relevant group, learning who needs to be influenced, and, frankly, playing the politics that are always part of a group can sap the creative energy from a person with a good idea. [SNIP] Exactly. I don't understand why some people believe that the sole reason anyone undertakes an idea is for personal gain...sigh But, thats for the politicos to bore each other with. So, the question is still open. What is all the Debian-related material we all wish for? At least in your view? I've received several inputs on this, both on and off this list. Its given us a good direction to start with, but I'd like to be able to define an end goal with all of this. Obviously, Debian-Administration is quite capably handling the high end and the docs cover all a developer would ever wnt to kow to get started. So, at least from what I see, the holes may be in the new users realm. Then again, I could be totally wrong. It has happened before ;-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Mark Crean wrote: The OP's post was sincere and his questions worthwhile. His site is also new and so not yet fully worked out, so far as I can tell. I think he deserves more than you appear able to give. yes .. always give credit to those willing to put in time and effort into free documentation and other relevant info ... - and if they are looking for helpers, one could step in and help fix the problems they're having what someone doesn't like may be what others do like .. - choice is good - too many choices is bad those that put in the initial time to setup a quickie ( the ez part ) may quickly die out since it's a lot of work or stay for the duration .. a yr, or 5 yr or more depending on their goals/aspirations .. c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Andy Streich wrote: Sometimes it's about the personal requirement for individual recognition, but other times it has more to do with an individual having a vision and trying it out. That's not something we should be pushing back on. Sure it would be nice if all these people found a way to cooperatively produce all the Debian-related material we all wish for -- and that should always be tried. sometimes people see voids in other well established sites and prefer to fix the problem .. - fix their stuff... or start your own to fix it the right way --- another example of forking/splintering of distro's .. - too many debian distro's .. - it'd be lot better, a bigger/better super-distro if all the efforts/fixes/energy is in the mothership .. but ... But figuring out how to become part of the relevant group, learning who needs to be influenced, and, frankly, playing the politics that are always part of a group can sap the creative energy from a person with a good idea. bingo .. one can't please everybody ... c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
Alvin Oga wrote: yes .. always give credit to those willing to put in time and effort into free documentation and other relevant info ... - and if they are looking for helpers, one could step in and help fix the problems they're having what someone doesn't like may be what others do like .. - choice is good - too many choices is bad those that put in the initial time to setup a quickie ( the ez part ) may quickly die out since it's a lot of work or stay for the duration .. a yr, or 5 yr or more depending on their goals/aspirations .. c ya alvin All I can do is give my assurances that I plan to be in this for the duration. Those who know me know I'm not one to give up easily ;-) As for help to fix the problems, I would welcome anyone willing to roll up their sleeves and dig in. I'm not claiming to have all the answers, and I definitely am not a super-guru. I know the current situation needs work, and while I've been doing what i can there is only so much one person can do. I'm hoping that in time at least, we will gain some assistance from others; websites, users, devs, and even newbies can all offer something. Everyone has their own areas of expertise, and none of us knows it all. Collectively though, and with enough time, the situation should improve. Thanks to everyone who has commented. I'm compiling a list of suggestions for review and have passed it on to the other websites I am in contact with thus far. Oh also, FWIW I did fix the wiki also. Guess I'll be giving myself a crash course in MediaWiki next...lol -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Josh King wrote: All I can do is give my assurances that I plan to be in this for the duration. Those who know me know I'm not one to give up easily ;-) yup... from what i can see so far .. As for help to fix the problems, I would welcome anyone willing to roll up their sleeves and dig in. I'm not claiming to have all the answers, and I definitely am not a super-guru. you will be when your site is complete to your satisfaction for that instant or forever chasing the end of the rainbow c ya alvin i have my paws full of toys to fix/cleanup too .. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
On Wednesday 07 December 2005 05:26 pm, Josh King wrote: So, the question is still open. What is all the Debian-related material we all wish for? At least in your view? I've received several inputs on this, both on and off this list. Its given us a good direction to start with, but I'd like to be able to define an end goal with all of this. Obviously, Debian-Administration is quite capably handling the high end and the docs cover all a developer would ever wnt to kow to get started. So, at least from what I see, the holes may be in the new users realm. Yep, taking care of common new user problems is a clear hole to fill. But I expect you to have something in mind as well -- something of your own that has motivated you to create a new Debian site. It's good to poll for new ideas, but you need to have your own independent thoughts based on your own experience. Otherwise you are just duplicated existing material. Anyway, I'd love to see not just docs for new users but configuration software that plays an active role in plugging the holes. Don't just give me better things to read (although that's great), give me a tool that finds and fixes problems. Andy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Slightly OT: Comments, ideas, or suggestions for improving websites
Hey all, Currently I am the lead admin/webmaster of DebCentral.org. I really would like to take a few minutes out of your life to gather some inputs on an idea I have. I know the general advice from this list and other Debian-* lists has generally consistent through the years I have followed them. The advice to those wanting to start a new Debian-centric website has been to support and work with an existing one. Well, in the recent weeks/months there seems to have been a significant increase in third-party web sites and communities springing up around the globe; ours included. This very subject was the basis of an article written by a colleague of mine, Christian, webmaster of Debian-News [1]. After that article, he and I began discussing ways we could cooperate between our two sites. Since then we have discussed this potential cooperation with several other website owners/administrators, with mixed results thus far. I'm hopeful that we can convince others to join us in trying to increase the quality of these sites, and possibly thereby also decreasing the quantity. There seem to be two main issues to making this happen. First is getting the cooperative spirit going; many people are unwilling to totally put aside their own creations to begin working on a group effort, or want the group effort to somehow benefit not only the new project/group but to also benefit back to the existing websites. The second issue is a lack of ideas or suggestions as to what actual project(s) can and should be undertaken so as to allow each website to be treated fairly and equally, while focusing on the maximum benefit to the community. Basically, we're stumped as to what and how to make this come about. [2] I'm looking to the community to maybe help us figure out the best way to handle this. Any ideas or suggestions for what we all could do to better work with and for the Debian community would be greatly appreciated. I'm open for any suggestions, and am hoping some of you can provide a fresh perspective on this and some fresh ideas on what to do and how to implement some form of cooperation. One idea I had was to concentrate our efforts into one mega-site. This would allow everyone involved to focus their time and effort into the areas that best fit their talent and skills. It would be a totally new endeavor, and dedicated solely to providing a service to the community at large without regard for what may be best for an existing site. However, I think my vision in this may be a bit overreaching in light of the realities from the above paragraph. Or it just plain may be a silly and bad idea. The poll [2] on DebCentral hopefully will provide some further insight to this idea of cooperative web sites. If you have any ideas, comments, or suggestions, please share them with us. I know we'd love to have some inputs from everyone on this. Also, if you are a member or administrator of a Debian focused (or close derivate distro focused) website or community and would be interested in this idea, please reply on here or off-list to my email or josh AT DebCentral.org.org If you're not affiliated with any current website or would just like to help out and get involved with any future works and/or existing sites, again please contact me so we can get you involved and up to speed on things as they sit at that moment. Thanks and I look forward to hearing your comments, even if you think the whole idea just plain sucks. 1. http://debian-news.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=354 2. http://debcentral.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=141 -- http://debcentral.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
