Test (was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.)
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Test2 (was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.)
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Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
Am 2008-07-18 12:04:35, schrieb Steve C. Lamb: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 04:01:31PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote: I do not believe it, since I am admin a Courier-Imap Server with 73.000 users ith 2.8 million legitim messages and 8 million spams per day. And a d-u troll. I would never use mbox for such stuff... and of course, a mailque und 200.000 is read in in less then 2 minutes... Using a Quad Opteron 880 with 32 GByte of memory. Yes, everyone has one of those on their desktop. Begone. It is only a small Development Station... ;-) I have seen, that the new Phenom are less expensive and have now several times more power... And unfortunately I am very jealous since I know to many peoples using such machines... Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator 24V Electronic Engineer Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 +49/177/935194750, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
Am 2008-07-13 14:06:51, schrieb Steve Lamb: My apologies to Ron, I slapped reply and not reply-to-all and trim. :( Ron Johnson wrote: That's qmail's fault, not that of Maildir. No, that is a design problem in Maildir. Granted I wouldn't want my MTAs I do not believe it, since I am admin a Courier-Imap Server with 73.000 users ith 2.8 million legitim messages and 8 million spams per day. I would never use mbox for such stuff... and of course, a mailque und 200.000 is read in in less then 2 minutes... Using a Quad Opteron 880 with 32 GByte of memory. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator 24V Electronic Engineer Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 +49/177/935194750, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 04:01:31PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote: I do not believe it, since I am admin a Courier-Imap Server with 73.000 users ith 2.8 million legitim messages and 8 million spams per day. And a d-u troll. I would never use mbox for such stuff... and of course, a mailque und 200.000 is read in in less then 2 minutes... Using a Quad Opteron 880 with 32 GByte of memory. Yes, everyone has one of those on their desktop. Begone. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
Ron Johnson wrote: Maybe it's because I keep d-u messages is semi-annual history folders so directories never get above 10,000 files, but what problems do Maildirs have? Needing to open many files instead of one? Needing to deal with that many files in any capacity, ever. I've had the displeasure of being the administrator of a qmail setup that would accept all mail (smtp-time rejection, what's that!?) then filter then generate bounces to bogus email addresses in spam. Yeah, 50,000 maildir queues that take 20 minutes to stat are no fun. That pretty much swore me off that idiotic idea. I'll take that over an errant EOF wiping out a large chunk of a directory. Let's see. I've been using mbox since the early 90s with my first Netcom account and elm. Or was it late 80s? Anyway, let's just say about 15 years. In that time know how many EOF problems I've hit in all of my mail in 15 years? 0. I've had 2 hard drives take a nosedive on me in that time. Or not to put too fine a point on it, opening up one maildir directory with more than, say, 2000 messages in it will have wasted more time than I have ever had wasted by errant EOFs. Yes I can restore from backup, but (a) the bug that caused the errant EOF is still there, and Or in my case, not. I guess you could say that the bug that caused my hard-drive to eat itself is still there... (b) bringing back the back-up emails without introducing duplicates or overwriting new mails is a hassle. Not so much any more. Pull out archives, merge, run remove duplicates tool, done. But then, I haven't had to do that, either, since when I lose my mail stores to hard drive failures I generally am no concerned about the merge portion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/13/08 04:14, Steve Lamb wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: Maybe it's because I keep d-u messages is semi-annual history folders so directories never get above 10,000 files, but what problems do Maildirs have? Needing to open many files instead of one? Needing to deal with that many files in any capacity, ever. I've had the displeasure of being the administrator of a qmail setup that would accept all mail (smtp-time rejection, what's that!?) then filter then generate bounces to bogus email addresses in spam. Yeah, 50,000 maildir queues that take 20 minutes to stat are no fun. That pretty much swore me off that idiotic idea. That's qmail's fault, not that of Maildir. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New York is doomed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkh5/YEACgkQS9HxQb37Xmf82QCg0bYiBxwPJyucpoOKaIUKa1/b e0MAoKFaMi86RqVJ4h89jAxq7oM9tn/B =+cPj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 08:31:06PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 07/10/08 12:38, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 01:38:35PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 07/09/08 13:26, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: [snip] try a different MUA? This is why IMAP should be the standard mail store, not mboxes in proprietary locations. second that. THe convenience is incredible. Case in point: last month the family and I took a vacation. For several days we were going to be at separate locations, so the kids would be without my laptop (which carries separate accounts for each of them, I am the best dad in the world!). Well, no, because I am. Anyway... ;-) Creating individual accounts for everyone on a computer *should* be nothing to crow about. Not doing it should be a reason the Geek Police takes your computer away from you. didn't mean to crow about that... I was attempting to dissuade the potential raft of OMG, I hope you kids have separate accounts... responses. Oh well. A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
My apologies to Ron, I slapped reply and not reply-to-all and trim. :( Ron Johnson wrote: That's qmail's fault, not that of Maildir. No, that is a design problem in Maildir. Granted I wouldn't want my MTAs using a flat file for all its traffic, it makes no sense there for how short lived messages should be. But it exposes the severe flaw that large directories are next to impossible to deal with easily. Right now my trash is 2000 messages at 14Mb. 50,000 messages would be ~350Mb. Certainly doesn't take me 20 minutes to begin to work with a 350Mb flat file. Hell, at work I've opened larger flat files over the network in shorter time. signature.asc Description: PGP signature signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
On Jul 10, 2008, at 11:51 AM, Steve C. Lamb wrote: On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:38:21AM -0700, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 01:38:35PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 07/09/08 13:26, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: This is why IMAP should be the standard mail store, not mboxes in proprietary locations. second that. THe convenience is incredible. Case in point: Here's another fine example. I use dovecot on my server to expose my mbox mail via IMAP. Here are the locations from where I regularly check my mail: We really gotta get you over to Maildir someday, Steve. ;-) Then you can back up mail directories with thinks like rdiff and not pull in the whole mbox file into the backup again. Just the new mail. (GRIN) -- Nate Duehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
Nate Duehr wrote: We really gotta get you over to Maildir someday, Steve. ;-) Then you can back up mail directories with thinks like rdiff and not pull in the whole mbox file into the backup again. Just the new mail. (GRIN) While I do think Maildir is a lot better than mbox, applications like rsync, rdiff-backup, etc, copy only what's changed in files, so rsync'ing a mbox is actually efficient. -- Credit ... is the only enduring testimonial to man's confidence in man. -- James Blish Eduardo M KALINOWSKI [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://move.to/hpkb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
Nate Duehr wrote: We really gotta get you over to Maildir someday, Steve. ;-) Uh, no, thanks. I far prefer mbox's problems to maildir's. Then you can back up mail directories with thinks like rdiff and not pull in the whole mbox file into the backup again. Just the new mail. (GRIN) Huh? You do realize that diff does work on individiual lines in a file so effectively no difference. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/12/08 18:46, Steve Lamb wrote: Nate Duehr wrote: We really gotta get you over to Maildir someday, Steve. ;-) Uh, no, thanks. I far prefer mbox's problems to maildir's. Maybe it's because I keep d-u messages is semi-annual history folders so directories never get above 10,000 files, but what problems do Maildirs have? Needing to open many files instead of one? I'll take that over an errant EOF wiping out a large chunk of a directory. Yes I can restore from backup, but (a) the bug that caused the errant EOF is still there, and (b) bringing back the back-up emails without introducing duplicates or overwriting new mails is a hassle. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New York is doomed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkh5UYoACgkQS9HxQb37XmfedgCgj1Giw2MhOjasrZaJuOadg//C Bg4An3BNE3J4bc+jdEqwbrGHCTGtrITZ =ogZ3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
Steve Lamb wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: Of course, it drops mails directly into Maildir folders, so you'd have to tell Dovcot to use Maildir instead of mbox. But that should not be hard. I was talking about the filters from the client more than the subfolders. Dovecot doesn't do sieve. There is a plug-in for sieve. http://wiki.dovecot.org/LDA/Sieve HTH Wackojacko -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
Wackojacko wrote: Steve Lamb wrote: Dovecot doesn't do sieve. There is a plug-in for sieve. http://wiki.dovecot.org/LDA/Sieve HTH Hell yeah it helps. Hm, they're compiled in by default in Ubuntu, wonder if that means Debian too. Also... http://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/pipermail/info-cyrus/2008-May/029069.html ...Wewt, TBird Sieve extensions! I know what I'm going to be playing with this weekend! Thanks! Yes, I said wewt, for those who went all o.O at that, deal. :P signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed,09.Jul.08, 12:41:57, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Any idea how to confirm that it's the mail server and not my MUA (SeaMonkey 1.1.9, which I don't suspect but would want to rule out)? Subscribe a different address (on a different server)? Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 01:38:35PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 07/09/08 13:26, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: [snip] try a different MUA? This is why IMAP should be the standard mail store, not mboxes in proprietary locations. second that. THe convenience is incredible. Case in point: last month the family and I took a vacation. For several days we were going to be at separate locations, so the kids would be without my laptop (which carries separate accounts for each of them, I am the best dad in the world!). I installed squirrelmail on my mail server, pointed it at the IMAP server (dovecot) and the problem was solved, in about 5 minutes. The whole family had mail access over the web without mucking around with teaching them how to configure clients (and then clean up afterwards!) and so forth. easy peasy. A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:38:21AM -0700, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 01:38:35PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 07/09/08 13:26, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: This is why IMAP should be the standard mail store, not mboxes in proprietary locations. second that. THe convenience is incredible. Case in point: Here's another fine example. I use dovecot on my server to expose my mbox mail via IMAP. Here are the locations from where I regularly check my mail: On the server itself via mutt (ssh session). Squirrelmail via any web browser the world over. Thunderbird on my KUbuntu laptop. Thunderbird on my Windows partition on my gaming machine. Thunderbird on my KUbuntu partition on my gaming machine. Thunderbird on my KUbuntu VirtualBox VM under Windows on my gaming machine. Thunderbird on my KUbuntu VirtualBox VM under Windows on my work laptop. Sure, I could do all that with ssh to the server and read via mutt but I prefer Thunderbird and being able to just point it to my IMAP store, configure about 3-4 settings and be good to go is a godsend. The only thing I miss in that setup, really, is the ability to configure filters from inside the client and subfolders. I know both are possible if I switch to another IMAP server. However I would lose the flexibility of ssh/mutt which comes in handy sometimes. Regardless I cannot imagine doing all of the above without IMAP. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 01:51:01PM -0400, Steve C. Lamb wrote: The only thing I miss in that setup, really, is the ability to configure filters from inside the client and subfolders. I know both are possible if I switch to another IMAP server. However I would lose the flexibility of ssh/mutt which comes in handy sometimes. Regardless I cannot imagine doing all of the above without IMAP. Just to correct myself I just found out that TBird and Dovecot can do subfolders with mbox. One just needs to append a / at the end of the folders when creating them in Thunderbird. This denotes that it is a folder to contain other folders (a directory server side) vs a folder to hold mail (an mbox file). -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/10/08 12:51, Steve C. Lamb wrote: [snip] The only thing I miss in that setup, really, is the ability to configure filters from inside the client and subfolders. I know both are possible if I switch to another IMAP server. However I would lose the flexibility of ssh/mutt which comes in handy sometimes. Regardless I cannot imagine doing all of the above without IMAP. I set up spamassassin and mailfilter as a hook insides postfix. So after postfix gets a mail back from SA, it feeds the mail to mailfilter, which is what does server-side filtering in an easy-to- read language. Of course, it drops mails directly into Maildir folders, so you'd have to tell Dovcot to use Maildir instead of mbox. But that should not be hard. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New York is doomed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkh2t1sACgkQS9HxQb37XmdVHgCgjDsJeYhHw7nuNfKO8zj59z9X IzEAoIok4lSAszTOIwbYqhhz5TxuEFrY =hDOh -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/10/08 12:38, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 01:38:35PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 07/09/08 13:26, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: [snip] try a different MUA? This is why IMAP should be the standard mail store, not mboxes in proprietary locations. second that. THe convenience is incredible. Case in point: last month the family and I took a vacation. For several days we were going to be at separate locations, so the kids would be without my laptop (which carries separate accounts for each of them, I am the best dad in the world!). Well, no, because I am. Anyway... Creating individual accounts for everyone on a computer *should* be nothing to crow about. Not doing it should be a reason the Geek Police takes your computer away from you. I installed squirrelmail on my mail server, pointed it at the IMAP server (dovecot) and the problem was solved, in about 5 minutes. The whole family had mail access over the web without mucking around with teaching them how to configure clients (and then clean up afterwards!) and so forth. easy peasy. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New York is doomed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkh2t9kACgkQS9HxQb37XmdRLwCfYo0F944Jymm8K31Dl9ePEAXk GQ4AoNh8K2YFw59Yy23w/NbJYuk2lrsD =8K1/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IMAP is teh r0x0rz! [was: Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.]
Ron Johnson wrote: Of course, it drops mails directly into Maildir folders, so you'd have to tell Dovcot to use Maildir instead of mbox. But that should not be hard. I was talking about the filters from the client more than the subfolders. Dovecot doesn't do sieve. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
Chris Davies wrote: Barclay, Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why don't you just copy the text and paste it into a message? Follows. Notice that even the text/plain part is base64 encoded. Thanks. (And thanks to others who sent me copies.) Now if I can figure out how to get the mail server configuration fixed .. Daniel P.S. How do I change my debian-user subscription to have the mailing list server send me a copy of my own posts? The MajorDomo/SmartList help response message doesn't says anything about changing that setting. (Not getting such copies is part of why I didn't notice the HTML-mail problem--and I wonder how long it has looked that I had my MUA set to do that (how long the mail server has been configured that way).) Daniel
Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/09/08 10:33, Barclay, Daniel wrote: [snip] Now if I can figure out how to get the mail server configuration fixed .. Replacing Lookout with Postfix would do the trick. Might be a bit of an upheaval, though... [snip] I wonder how long it has looked that I had my MUA set to do that (how long the mail server has been configured that way).) The Debian list manager sends *all* posts to *all* subscribers. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New York is doomed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkh04DcACgkQS9HxQb37Xmcp4ACgxSghOBGUW2CYbp1yrbPF0j6U 8ckAoOl4NZS7mEHkaZ95zfe6qFO6JlFP =kGqJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 11:33:39AM -0400, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Chris Davies wrote: Barclay, Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why don't you just copy the text and paste it into a message? Follows. Notice that even the text/plain part is base64 encoded. Thanks. (And thanks to others who sent me copies.) Now if I can figure out how to get the mail server configuration fixed .. Daniel P.S. How do I change my debian-user subscription to have the mailing list server send me a copy of my own posts? The MajorDomo/SmartList help response message doesn't says anything about changing that setting. So far as I know, the default is to get copies of everything. Unless you've changed it otherwise, you should be recieving them. Is you mail system perhaps seeing them as duplicates and deleting them? A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Barclay, Daniel wrote: Chris Davies wrote: Barclay, Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why don't you just copy the text and paste it into a message? Follows. Notice that even the text/plain part is base64 encoded. Thanks. (And thanks to others who sent me copies.) Now if I can figure out how to get the mail server configuration fixed .. Daniel P.S. How do I change my debian-user subscription to have the mailing list server send me a copy of my own posts? The MajorDomo/SmartList help response message doesn't says anything about changing that setting. (Not getting such copies is part of why I didn't notice the HTML-mail problem--and I wonder how long it has looked that I had my MUA set to do that (how long the mail server has been configured that way).) Daniel It's the behaviour of gmail - the bug and the feature simultaneously. Do you use gmail? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkh05EIACgkQchorMMFUmYxtrQCgigWqhGujMUkQonX0LnmpCKhi uY8AnihWptU9ThI22zjYCdSgnp0F0rr4 =mElQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
Ron Johnson wrote: On 07/09/08 10:33, Barclay, Daniel wrote: [snip] Now if I can figure out how to get the mail server configuration fixed .. Replacing Lookout with Postfix would do the trick. Did you mean Exchange? (I thought Lookout referred to Outlook, which I'm not using.) Might be a bit of an upheaval, though... Yeah. The best I can probably hope for is that the plain-text-to-HTML convers^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcorruption is configurable in Exchange and somehow I and others here can convince some powers that be to change it. [snip] I wonder how long it has looked that I had my MUA set to do that (how long the mail server has been configured that way).) The Debian list manager sends *all* posts to *all* subscribers. Hmm. Yeah, I thought it would be doing that, especially if there's no option to select whether to do that or not. Daniel
Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
Andrew Sackville-West wrote: On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 11:33:39AM -0400, Barclay, Daniel wrote: ... P.S. How do I change my debian-user subscription to have the mailing list server send me a copy of my own posts? The MajorDomo/SmartList help response message doesn't says anything about changing that setting. So far as I know, the default is to get copies of everything. Unless you've changed it otherwise, you should be recieving them. Is you mail system perhaps seeing them as duplicates and deleting them? That's a good theory. Any idea how to confirm that it's the mail server and not my MUA (SeaMonkey 1.1.9, which I don't suspect but would want to rule out)? Daniel
Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
Eugene V. Lyubimkin wrote: ... P.S. How do I change my debian-user subscription to have the mailing list server send me a copy of my own posts? The MajorDomo/SmartList help response message doesn't says anything about changing that setting. (Not getting such copies is part of why I didn't notice the HTML-mail problem--and I wonder how long it has looked that I had my MUA set to do that (how long the mail server has been configured that way).) Daniel It's the behaviour of gmail - the bug and the feature simultaneously. Do you use gmail? No, I'm using SeaMonkey (with POP, it that's relevant.) Daniel
Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/09/08 11:40, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: On 07/09/08 10:33, Barclay, Daniel wrote: [snip] Now if I can figure out how to get the mail server configuration fixed .. Replacing Lookout with Postfix would do the trick. Did you mean Exchange? (I thought Lookout referred to Outlook, which I'm not using.) Yes, my bad. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New York is doomed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkh07tgACgkQS9HxQb37XmctwACfQpDC3N6VDsAUohLRmJ+Y8lh7 /84AniYjhN5vY1t1ZYxuCswXbsYP8m+W =EjFA -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 12:41:57 -0400, Barclay, Daniel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Any idea how to confirm that it's the mail server and not my MUA (SeaMonkey 1.1.9, which I don't suspect but would want to rule out)? It is the server as far as I can tell. In mutt I just press 'e' to edit the whole message (in vim in my case) and at the top of the html section there is: META HTTP-EQUIV=3DContent-Type CONTENT=3Dtext/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1 META NAME=3DGenerator CONTENT=3DMS Exchange Server version = 6.5.7652.24 TITLERe: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned = by aptitude./TITLE /HEAD BODY !-- Converted from text/plain format -- PFONT SIZE=3D2Andrew Sackville-West wrote:BR gt; On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 11:33:39AM -0400, Barclay, Daniel = wrote:BR It even admits to converting it from plain text ;-) -- Bob Cox. Stoke Gifford, near Bristol, UK. Registered user #445000 with the Linux Counter - http://counter.li.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
I wrote, slightly too quickly: Eugene V. Lyubimkin wrote: ... P.S. How do I change my debian-user subscription to have the mailing list server send me a copy of my own posts? The MajorDomo/SmartList help response message doesn't says anything about changing that setting. (Not getting such copies is part of why I didn't notice the HTML-mail problem--and I wonder how long it has looked that I had my MUA set to do that (how long the mail server has been configured that way).) Daniel It's the behaviour of gmail - the bug and the feature simultaneously. Do you use gmail? No, I'm using SeaMonkey (with POP, it that's relevant.) s/it/if/ Daniel
Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 12:41:57PM -0400, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Andrew Sackville-West wrote: On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 11:33:39AM -0400, Barclay, Daniel wrote: ... P.S. How do I change my debian-user subscription to have the mailing list server send me a copy of my own posts? The MajorDomo/SmartList help response message doesn't says anything about changing that setting. So far as I know, the default is to get copies of everything. Unless you've changed it otherwise, you should be recieving them. Is you mail system perhaps seeing them as duplicates and deleting them? That's a good theory. Any idea how to confirm that it's the mail server and not my MUA (SeaMonkey 1.1.9, which I don't suspect but would want to rule out)? try a different MUA? A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: getting copies of own posted messages; was: Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/09/08 13:26, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: [snip] try a different MUA? This is why IMAP should be the standard mail store, not mboxes in proprietary locations. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New York is doomed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkh1BasACgkQS9HxQb37XmeJMACg4Y5hU3Qx8TWXGntB7RYaeiBk X+IAn0wjXlOjygyJ68YTb7TrChZZ1bzF =/A7t -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
Barclay, Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why don't you just copy the text and paste it into a message? Follows. Notice that even the text/plain part is base64 encoded. Chris From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Jul 8 09:10:00 2008 Path: news.enta.net!news.mediascape.de!newsfeed-0.progon.net!progon.net!vlad-tepes.bofh.it!bofh.it!news.nic.it!robomod From: Barclay, Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: linux.debian.user Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IOetlOWkjTogU3R1bm5lZCBieSBhcHRpdHVkZS4=?= Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 23:30:19 +0200 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Original-To: Debian User debian-user@lists.debian.org Old-Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Policyd-Weight: using cached result; rate: -7 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=_=_NextPart_001_01C8E078.58C40D80 X-Originalarrivaltime: 07 Jul 2008 21:28:07.0359 (UTC) FILETIME=[58FAD4F0:01C8E078] User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.13) Gecko/20080313 SeaMonkey/1.1.9 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Thread-Topic: =?UTF-8?B?562U5aSNOiBTdHVubmVkIGJ5IGFwdGl0dWRlLg==?= Thread-Index: AcjgeFkEVJpyX0FWTR+hbe1Xa8DeEg== X-Amavis-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.912 tagged_above=3.6 required=5.3 tests=[BAYES_00=-2, FOURLA=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=1.1, LDO_WHITELIST=-5, SARE_HEAD_8BIT_SPAM=0.888] X-Mailing-List: debian-user@lists.debian.org archive/latest/523823 List-ID: debian-user.lists.debian.org Approved: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lines: 98 Organization: linux.* mail to news gateway Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Original-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 17:28:03 -0400 X-Original-Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Original-References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Xref: buzzard.roaima.co.uk linux.debian.user:28662 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --_=_NextPart_001_01C8E078.58C40D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TWFyayBBbGx1bXMgd3JvdGU6DQo+IEJhcmNsYXksIERhbmllbCB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+ICA+IFsu [...] dW5kZXJzdGFuZCBpdCksIHJpZ2h0Pw0KDQoNCkRhbmllbA0KDQoNCg0K --_=_NextPart_001_01C8E078.58C40D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDMuMi8vRU4iPg0KPEhUTUw+ [...] UD4NCg0KPC9CT0RZPg0KPC9IVE1MPg== --_=_NextPart_001_01C8E078.58C40D80-- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 答复: Stunned by aptitude. - a lmost done - test 1 of 3
Does this message come across: - with an HTML part? - base64-encoded? Thanks. Daniel [Test 1 of 3: w/ chars; UTF-8]
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude. - almost done - test 2 of 3
Does this message come across: - with an HTML part? - base64-encoded? Thanks. Daniel [Test 2 of 3: w/ chars; ISO-8859-1 (?)]
Re: xx: Stunned by aptitude. - almost done - test 3 of 3
Does this message come across: - with an HTML part? - base64-encoded? Thanks. Daniel [Test 3 of 3: w/o chars]
Re: Stunned by aptitude. - almost done - test 1 of 3
Hello Daniel, On 2008-07-08, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Does this message come across: - with an HTML part? - base64-encoded? Yes to both. Regards, -- Christer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stunned by aptitude. - almost done - test 2 of 3
Hello Daniel, On 2008-07-08, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Does this message come across: - with an HTML part? - base64-encoded? Yes to the first. Neither part was base64-encoded. Regards, -- Christer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stunned by aptitude. - almost done - test 3 of 3
Hello Daniel, On 2008-07-08, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Does this message come across: - with an HTML part? - base64-encoded? Yes to both. Regards, -- Christer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude. - almost done - test 2 of 3
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/08/08 10:01, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Does this message come across: - with an HTML part? Yes. - base64-encoded? No. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New York is doomed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEUEARECAAYFAkhzhtoACgkQS9HxQb37XmciTwCeM5SazHlHzpxwbovf/SgdifFN kMIAmOokqLx2H9DPFCcj/EWaQO22TaU= =vhBt -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: xx: Stunned by aptitude. - almost done - test 3 of 3
On Tue July 8 2008, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Does this message come across: - with an HTML part? - base64-encoded? Thanks. Daniel in kmail the area at the bottom with the separate parts of the message shows: Description Type Encoding Re: multipart/alternative- 7bit body part Plain text documentbase 64 body part HTML document base64 -- Paul Cartwright Registered Linux user # 367800 Registered Ubuntu User #12459 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude. - almost done - test 2 of 3
On 07/08/2008 10:01 AM, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Does this message come across: - with an HTML part? - base64-encoded? Thanks. Daniel [Test 2 of 3: w/ chars; ISO-8859-1 (?)] Yes, there is an HTML part. No, there is no base64-encoding on either the text or HTML parts. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 10:03 -0400, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 16:19 +1000, CaT wrote: I believe that would be the point the original poster was getting at. If aptitude is really doing that then it is in the wrong. I understood it, but given that this is how apt has always worked and is documented to work, why change it now? Because it's error-prone. Because it's a poor-quality design. Might want to check yourself before you wreck yourself: The same could be said for your HTML-spewing MUA. What that heck are you talking about? My message was sent in plain text, not HTML. And even if I had sent HTML, how the hell would that change the truth of my statement? We're talking about Debian and improving it. My MUA has nothing to do with that. Daniel
Re: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
Barclay, Daniel wrote: [...] could be said for your HTML-spewing MUA. What that heck are you talking about? My message was sent in plain text, not HTML. It's a dual-format message encoded in MIME base64 format. So, two things are wrong with the format of your message. One, it's both plain text and HTML, and two, it's MIME encoded. The latter is not necessarily a deal-breaker, if everyone has a modern mail-reading client, but the HTML makes some people cranky. Mark Allums -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
Mark Allums wrote: Barclay, Daniel wrote: [...] could be said for your HTML-spewing MUA. What that heck are you talking about? My message was sent in plain text, not HTML. It's a dual-format message encoded in MIME base64 format. So, two things are wrong with the format of your message. One, it's both plain text and HTML, and two, it's MIME encoded. The latter is not necessarily a deal-breaker, if everyone has a modern mail-reading client, but the HTML makes some people cranky. Mark Allums Hah!, my mail client is stupid, it responds in kind, so my last message (and this one, too) may have been sent in MIME and HTML as well. Sorry about this, I will try to fix it, so that it won't happen again. Wish me luck. Mark Allums -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stunned by aptitude.
On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 16:52:25 -0400 Barclay, Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Daniel, What that heck are you talking about? My message was sent in plain text, not HTML. In fact, Daniel, your messages to this list are coming through as plain text with an HTML attachment. It would seem that although posting in plain text is ON, posting in HTML is _not_ OFF in your MUA. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent Now would I say something that wasn't true? Would I Lie To You - Eurythmics signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: 答复 : Stunned by aptitude.
On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 04:03:04PM -0500, Mark Allums wrote: Hah!, my mail client is stupid, it responds in kind, so my last message (and this one, too) may have been sent in MIME and HTML as well. Sorry No, no they haven't. :) about this, I will try to fix it, so that it won't happen again. Wish me luck. Good luck! =) -- Police noticed some rustling sounds from Linn's bottom area and on closer inspection a roll of cash was found protruding from Linn's anus, the full amount of cash taken in the robbery. - http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/robber-hides-loot-up-his-booty/2008/05/09/1210131248617.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
Mark Allums wrote: Barclay, Daniel wrote: [...] could be said for your HTML-spewing MUA. What that heck are you talking about? My message was sent in plain text, not HTML. It's a dual-format message encoded in MIME base64 format. Where the heck are you seeing base64 encoding? In both the copy of my message written directly to my Sent folder and the copy I got back from my mail server (because of my BCC header addressing myself), there was _no_ base64 encoding of anything. (That's from viewing the raw message using SeaMonkey's View Source command AND from double-checking with emacs.) Are you ascribing to my MUA (and my configuration and use of it) some transformation that something else is performing? (The only type of copy I can't find is a copy echoed back from the mailing list (to see what arrived at the other end). Do Debian lists not send copies back to the original sender?) So, two things are wrong with the format of your message. One, it's both plain text and HTML, Similarly: Where are you seeing HTML? There is _no_ HTML in what my MUA sent out. ... and two, it's MIME encoded. What do you mean by MIME encoded? That's ambiguous. MIME involves a lot of things. My message has no transfer encoding other than a straight one-byte-per-character encoding (and in fact it's the simplest, plainest ASCII-based encoding: 7-bit). My message doesn't have multiple parts, so there's no encoding of multiple parts. The latter is not necessarily a deal-breaker, if everyone has a modern mail-reading client, ... Surely you're not saying that people object to the MIME-Version header field (ignorable by MUAs that don't understand it), right? Daniel
Re: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 16:52 -0400, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 10:03 -0400, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 16:19 +1000, CaT wrote: I believe that would be the point the original poster was getting at. If aptitude is really doing that then it is in the wrong. I understood it, but given that this is how apt has always worked and is documented to work, why change it now? Because it's error-prone. Because it's a poor-quality design. Might want to check yourself before you wreck yourself: The same could be said for your HTML-spewing MUA. What that heck are you talking about? My message was sent in plain text, not HTML. The message I am replying to, as was the one in question, is HTML, not plain text. And even if I had sent HTML, how the hell would that change the truth of my statement? We're talking about Debian and improving it. My MUA has nothing to do with that. If you got your MUA via Debian, and you don't know you're sending HTML, I suspect that's a bug we need to fix, eh? -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Stunned by aptitude.
Brad Rogers wrote: On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 16:52:25 -0400 Barclay, Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Daniel, What that heck are you talking about? My message was sent in plain text, not HTML. In fact, Daniel, your messages to this list are coming through as plain text with an HTML attachment. Well, that's not what my MUA sent out. (See my previous message.) Somebody please send me a copy of one of these messages that you see with HTML and/or base64 encoding. (Of course, send it in a way that preserves the headers and the original raw form of the message. E.g., forward it as an attachment, or copy the text of the raw message and paste that into a message.) (I suspect that this message won't show the base64/HTML, because for some reason the subject field now doesn't show the two question-mark characters it was showing earlier in this thread. If this message doesn't show the base64/HTML, send me one of the messages that does.) It would seem that although posting in plain text is ON, posting in HTML is _not_ OFF in your MUA. Not from my end. New messages default to plain text. Replies default to (or are) the same as the message to which I'm replying. Daniel
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/07/08 16:28, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Mark Allums wrote: Barclay, Daniel wrote: [...] could be said for your HTML-spewing MUA. What that heck are you talking about? My message was sent in plain text, not HTML. It's a dual-format message encoded in MIME base64 format. Where the heck are you seeing base64 encoding? Here is a screenprint of an Iceweasel View-Message Source of your email which asks Where the heck are you seeing base64 encoding? http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson/Barclay_base64.png - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New York is doomed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkhykM0ACgkQS9HxQb37XmdD9gCgyo35CqOyBPP+IPY9lIuGf29J f5QAoJzfMzSB+/MY7wHerYFV8sZbdCnm =gJtc -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
Ron Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/07/08 16:28, Barclay, Daniel wrote: ... Where the heck are you seeing base64 encoding? Here is a screenprint of an Iceweasel View-Message Source of your An image? Come on! Why don't you just copy the text and paste it into a message? And send ALL the headers. It's useless for tracing purposes without the rest of the headres. Daniel
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
I wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: ... On 07/07/08 16:28, Barclay, Daniel wrote: ... Where the heck are you seeing base64 encoding? Here is a screenprint of an Iceweasel View-Message Source of your An image? Come on! Why don't you just copy the text and paste it into a message? And send ALL the headers. It's useless for tracing purposes without the rest of the headres. s/headres/headers/ Daniel
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 16:52 -0400, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: ... What that heck are you talking about? My message was sent in plain text, not HTML. The message I am replying to, as was the one in question, is HTML, not plain text. Well, that wasn't the message I and my MUA sent. (See other messages and below.) And even if I had sent HTML, how the hell would that change the truth of my statement? We're talking about Debian and improving it. My MUA has nothing to do with that. If you got your MUA via Debian, and you don't know you're sending HTML, I suspect that's a bug we need to fix, eh? Yes, if my MUA and I were really sending out HTML because it (its interface) made it hard for me to notice/realize/see that that was happening, then, yes, that would be a UI design quality bug in the MUA. (When planes crashed because pilots accidentally dumped fuel because the dump-fuel switch was right next to the flaps controls, that wasn't just pilot error--that was bad design.) However, since my MUA is _not_ sending HTML out of my computer (my BCC copy from my mail server confirms that), my MUA's HTML vs. text settings and my use of them are not the problem. I suspect that a mail server or gateway between here and there is reformatting my message. I also suspect that it's related to the special characters in the subject field of most messages in this thread. (What were the two characters before the colon? I'm only seeing question marks.) Daniel
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/07/08 17:07, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: On 07/07/08 16:28, Barclay, Daniel wrote: ... Where the heck are you seeing base64 encoding? Here is a screenprint of an Iceweasel View-Message Source of your An image? Come on! Why don't you just copy the text and paste it into a message? Aren't we a fscking piss pot. Screw you and the stupid Microsoft shit that FGM uses. And send ALL the headers. It's useless for tracing purposes without the rest of the headres. But since this affects other people: http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson/Barclay_base64.eml - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New York is doomed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkhylhQACgkQS9HxQb37XmfjnACeJszoR5rtTPKSx8U9WEYB8aJv STUAn1Rdx11CiC3FddPpsOmhoMA2ndTn =SOk2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 06:12:51PM -0400, Barclay, Daniel wrote: However, since my MUA is _not_ sending HTML out of my computer (my BCC copy from my mail server confirms that), my MUA's HTML vs. text settings and my use of them are not the problem. I suspect that a mail server or gateway between here and there is reformatting my message. From the HTML in your message: META HTTP-EQUIV=Content-Type CONTENT=text/html; charset=Windows-1252 META NAME=Generator CONTENT=MS Exchange Server version 6.5.7652.24 TITLERe: ??: Stunned by aptitude./TITLE Tee-hee. -- Police noticed some rustling sounds from Linn's bottom area and on closer inspection a roll of cash was found protruding from Linn's anus, the full amount of cash taken in the robbery. - http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/robber-hides-loot-up-his-booty/2008/05/09/1210131248617.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
Barclay, Daniel wrote: Mark Allums wrote: Barclay, Daniel wrote: [...] could be said for your HTML-spewing MUA. What that heck are you talking about? My message was sent in plain text, not HTML. It's a dual-format message encoded in MIME base64 format. Where the heck are you seeing base64 encoding? Do View message Source or similar option with your MUA/client. Read the headers. In both the copy of my message written directly to my Sent folder and the copy I got back from my mail server (because of my BCC header addressing myself), there was _no_ base64 encoding of anything. (That's from viewing the raw message using SeaMonkey's View Source command AND from double-checking with emacs.) Are you ascribing to my MUA (and my configuration and use of it) some transformation that something else is performing? No. At least, I don't think so. (The only type of copy I can't find is a copy echoed back from the mailing list (to see what arrived at the other end). Do Debian lists not send copies back to the original sender?) So, two things are wrong with the format of your message. One, it's both plain text and HTML, Similarly: Where are you seeing HTML? There is _no_ HTML in what my MUA sent out. It's there. Again, with view source, it's quite plain. ... and two, it's MIME encoded. What do you mean by MIME encoded? That's ambiguous. MIME involves a lot of things. My message has no transfer encoding other than a straight one-byte-per-character encoding (and in fact it's the simplest, plainest ASCII-based encoding: 7-bit). My message doesn't have multiple parts, so there's no encoding of multiple parts. I beg to differ. Or rather, Mozilla Thunderbird begs to differ. The latter is not necessarily a deal-breaker, if everyone has a modern mail-reading client, ... Surely you're not saying that people object to the MIME-Version header field (ignorable by MUAs that don't understand it), right? No, not a deal-breaker means MIME is okay. (Except for ancient software, which may show someone the headers and extraneous info., then force them to view a couple of blocks of seemingly random text, which are the actual message text in base64 encoding.) Mark Allums -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
Ron Johnson wrote: ... On 07/07/08 17:07, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: On 07/07/08 16:28, Barclay, Daniel wrote: ... Where the heck are you seeing base64 encoding? Here is a screenprint of an Iceweasel View-Message Source of your An image? Come on! Why don't you just copy the text and paste it into a message? Aren't we a fscking piss pot. What do expect when I'm accused of doing something I didn't do (not knowing to and not knowing how to control my MUA to send plain text to the list), and then when someone conveys plain-text information by sending a screen-shot image--with critical data missing (because of that poor choice)? Screw you and the stupid Microsoft shit that FGM uses. I've been trying to gather evidence to show that our mail server (or its configuration) is corrupting messages (turning plain-text messages into HTML messages) and causing problems (e.g., this tangent of the Stunned by aptitude thread). So same first two words to you. Daniel
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
Barclay, Daniel wrote: I suspect that a mail server or gateway between here and there is reformatting my message. Unlikely. Occam's razor says you are sending that way, and can't see it with your software ecosystem. I have been wrong before... I also suspect that it's related to the special characters in the subject field of most messages in this thread. (What were the two characters before the colon? I'm only seeing question marks.) Japanese or Chinese characters. They are in some character encoding other than one your mail client is using, maybe UTF-8. Mark Allums -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
CaT wrote: On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 06:12:51PM -0400, Barclay, Daniel wrote: However, since my MUA is _not_ sending HTML out of my computer (my BCC copy from my mail server confirms that), my MUA's HTML vs. text settings and my use of them are not the problem. I suspect that a mail server or gateway between here and there is reformatting my message. You may be right (and I was wrong). From the HTML in your message: META HTTP-EQUIV=Content-Type CONTENT=text/html; charset=Windows-1252 META NAME=Generator CONTENT=MS Exchange Server version 6.5.7652.24 TITLERe: ??: Stunned by aptitude./TITLE Tee-hee. Ooh, I didn't think of that! Exchange! Of course! Mark Allums -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
Mark Allums wrote: Barclay, Daniel wrote: I suspect that a mail server or gateway between here and there is reformatting my message. Unlikely. Occam's razor says you are sending that way, and can't see it with your software ecosystem. I have been wrong before... And also now. In another message, it was noticed by CaT that the mail came out of an Exchange server. That may well be where the discrepancy shows up. Mark Allums -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stunned by aptitude.
I wrote: ... Somebody please send me a copy of one of these messages that you see with HTML and/or base64 encoding. ... Okay, I got a few. Thanks. Note that not all of them are the same regarding the transfer encoding: Most have been base64, but one was something else (I forgot now, but maybe Quoted-Printable). Daniel
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Screw you and the stupid Microsoft shit that FGM uses. I've been trying to gather evidence to show that our mail server (or its configuration) is corrupting messages (turning plain-text messages into HTML messages) and causing problems (e.g., this tangent of the Stunned by aptitude thread). So same first two words to you. You could've done all this yourself - by sending a mail from work to a non-work account (like gmail/etc) and inspecting the headers... Not only is it using Microsoft software, but it is poorly configured (the RDNS failure in the header). -- Rick Nelson Knghtbrd Trust us, we know what we're doing... We may have no idea HOW we're doing it, but we know WHAT we're doing. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
El lun, 07-07-2008 a las 17:42 -0500, Mark Allums escribió: Mark Allums wrote: Barclay, Daniel wrote: I suspect that a mail server or gateway between here and there is reformatting my message. Unlikely. Occam's razor says you are sending that way, and can't see it with your software ecosystem. I have been wrong before... And also now. In another message, it was noticed by CaT that the mail came out of an Exchange server. That may well be where the discrepancy shows up. Interesting, doesn't that mess up with gpg signatures? Sure, Barclay doesn't seem to be using them, but what if he did? -- Gabriel Parrondo GNU/Linux User #404138 GnuPG Public Key ID: BED7BF43 JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only difference between theory and practice is that, in theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 答复 : Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 06:29:57PM -0700, Daniel Burrows wrote: On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 05:35:11PM +0200, Sven Joachim [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: On 2008-07-02 16:40 +0200, Daniel Burrows wrote: On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 06:39:26AM -0700, Daniel Burrows [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: I put the apt-get and aptitude code up side-by-side and I can only see one difference in the conditions they use to determine whether to clean the lists. I don't see why this would matter (surely pkgAcquire::Run returns Failure if files can't be downloaded?), but if there's anyone who *can* reproduce this on demand, it would be interesting to know if the attached patch helps. Once more, with feeling. I can 100% reproduce the problem, and this patch solves it for me. Ok, I'll fold it into the next release then. Wow, that was fast. Thanks Daniel, I was seeing that as well, but didn't care too much as I have a pretty good connection (know on wood). Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
答复: Stunned by aptitude.
I don't think so. Obviously, if the network is broken, it absolutely does not mean that there is NO packages, just aptitude can not know. This gives it no right to erease all information stored locally. It is like, if my mobile was broken today, my wife could not contact with me, so she should think that I DIE? And call the cops, and throw out all my staff? It is not right, Mr. -邮件原件- 发件人: Paul Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 发送时间: 2008年7月2日 12:46 收件人: debian-user@lists.debian.org 主题: Re: Stunned by aptitude. On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 09:40 +0800, Magicloud wrote: Hello, When I used aptitude, I noticed that aptitude does not have an error handling mechanism. When I `aptitude update`, if the network is broken (like dns problem, route problem), it can not connect to the server, so it reports error, and clean up local apt record. If I stupidly `aptitude autoclean` then, all my debs are gone. It is doing error handling: If it can't reach that server, there's no point in considering it a valid source. If you have no valid sources, there's no current packages. It's working as designed. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 14:01 +0800, Magicloud wrote: I don't think so. Obviously, if the network is broken, it absolutely does not mean that there is NO packages, just aptitude can not know. That's by far the most round logic I've heard tonight. If it can't reach the repository to know about the packages, how in the world do you expect aptitude to know about the packages? This gives it no right to erease all information stored locally. It does when you update your package list to contain no packages, then tell it to autoclean. This is purely a pilot error. It is like, if my mobile was broken today, my wife could not contact with me, so she should think that I DIE? And call the cops, and throw out all my staff? This is more like if you broke your phone, then deliberately told your friend call your wife pretending to be the coroner to let her know you died. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Stunned by aptitude.
On 2008-07-02 06:46 +0200, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 09:40 +0800, Magicloud wrote: Hello, When I used aptitude, I noticed that aptitude does not have an error handling mechanism. When I `aptitude update`, if the network is broken (like dns problem, route problem), it can not connect to the server, so it reports error, and clean up local apt record. If I stupidly `aptitude autoclean` then, all my debs are gone. It is doing error handling: If it can't reach that server, there's no point in considering it a valid source. If you have no valid sources, there's no current packages. It's working as designed. Still there should be an option to turn this behavior off, since it is very annoying for people with low bandwith and frequent network problems. In apt-get you can set APT::Get::List-Cleanup=false to avoid erasing the list files if the update failed, but aptitude does not have such an option, AFAIK. See also the bugs reported in the BTS: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=470135 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=358320 Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
答复: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 14:01 +0800, Magicloud wrote: I don't think so. Obviously, if the network is broken, it absolutely does not mean that there is NO packages, just aptitude can not know. That's by far the most round logic I've heard tonight. If it can't reach the repository to know about the packages, how in the world do you expect aptitude to know about the packages? No, no. If you do not know how to deal with it, keep it. If aptitude could not separate can not connect with get a list with nothing in..., I was stunned again -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 答复 : Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 06:06:56AM +, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 14:01 +0800, Magicloud wrote: I don't think so. Obviously, if the network is broken, it absolutely does not mean that there is NO packages, just aptitude can not know. That's by far the most round logic I've heard tonight. If it can't reach the repository to know about the packages, how in the world do you expect aptitude to know about the packages? If it knew about packages for that repository in the past but failed to contact the repository now it should not assume that it's ok to wipe out the package list. I believe that would be the point the original poster was getting at. If aptitude is really doing that then it is in the wrong. -- Police noticed some rustling sounds from Linn's bottom area and on closer inspection a roll of cash was found protruding from Linn's anus, the full amount of cash taken in the robbery. - http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/robber-hides-loot-up-his-booty/2008/05/09/1210131248617.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 答复: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 14:33 +0800, Magicloud wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 14:01 +0800, Magicloud wrote: I don't think so. Obviously, if the network is broken, it absolutely does not mean that there is NO packages, just aptitude can not know. That's by far the most round logic I've heard tonight. If it can't reach the repository to know about the packages, how in the world do you expect aptitude to know about the packages? No, no. If you do not know how to deal with it, keep it. If aptitude could not separate can not connect with get a list with nothing in..., I was stunned again If it can't connect, the source isn't valid anyway for the time being. Think twice before using clean or autoclean next time: Don't reap unless you know your repositories are working. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 16:19 +1000, CaT wrote: I believe that would be the point the original poster was getting at. If aptitude is really doing that then it is in the wrong. I understood it, but given that this is how apt has always worked and is documented to work, why change it now? Apparently, there's a flag you can set the flag mentioned upthread if it's a bother for you. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: 答复 : Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 06:41:09AM +, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 16:19 +1000, CaT wrote: I believe that would be the point the original poster was getting at. If aptitude is really doing that then it is in the wrong. I understood it, but given that this is how apt has always worked and is documented to work, why change it now? Apparently, there's a flag you apt is not aptitude. I've not seen this in apt and I just tested it by firewalling a mirror off and running apt-get update. The lists files are still there. I ran apt-get clean and they are still there. I ran apt-get autoclean too, just to be sure. Files remained. If aptitude behaves differently then it is broken. can set the flag mentioned upthread if it's a bother for you. I believe said flag controls wether or not apt automatically removes the lists files for repositories that are not actually in your sources.list file anymore. -- Police noticed some rustling sounds from Linn's bottom area and on closer inspection a roll of cash was found protruding from Linn's anus, the full amount of cash taken in the robbery. - http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/robber-hides-loot-up-his-booty/2008/05/09/1210131248617.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 08:22:59AM +0200, Sven Joachim wrote: Still there should be an option to turn this behavior off, since it is very annoying for people with low bandwith and frequent network problems. In apt-get you can set APT::Get::List-Cleanup=false to avoid erasing the list files if the update failed, but aptitude does not have such an option, AFAIK. I don't think this really applies here. Least not to apt from my reading of this: --list-cleanup This option defaults to on, use --no-list-cleanup to turn it off. When on apt-get will automatically manage the contents of /var/lib/apt/lists to ensure that obsolete files are erased. The only reason to turn it off is if you frequently change your source list. Configuration Item: APT::Get::List-Cleanup. -- Police noticed some rustling sounds from Linn's bottom area and on closer inspection a roll of cash was found protruding from Linn's anus, the full amount of cash taken in the robbery. - http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/robber-hides-loot-up-his-booty/2008/05/09/1210131248617.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 09:40:00AM +0800, Magicloud wrote: Hello, When I used aptitude, I noticed that aptitude does not have an error handling mechanism. When I `aptitude update`, if the network is broken (like dns problem, route problem), it can not connect to the server, so it reports error, and clean up local apt record. If I stupidly `aptitude autoclean` then, all my debs are gone. $ grep Clean /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/00local APT::Clean-Installed false; Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: 答复 : Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 02:01:44PM +0800, Magicloud wrote: I don't think so. Obviously, if the network is broken, it absolutely does not mean that there is NO packages, just aptitude can not know. This gives it no right to erease all information stored locally. It is like, if my mobile was broken today, my wife could not contact with me, so she should think that I DIE? And call the cops, and throw out all my staff? It is not right, Mr. -邮件原件- 发件人: Paul Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 发送时间: 2008年7月2日 12:46 收件人: debian-user@lists.debian.org 主题: Re: Stunned by aptitude. On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 09:40 +0800, Magicloud wrote: Hello, When I used aptitude, I noticed that aptitude does not have an error handling mechanism. When I `aptitude update`, if the network is broken (like dns problem, route problem), it can not connect to the server, so it reports error, and clean up local apt record. If I stupidly `aptitude autoclean` then, all my debs are gone. It is doing error handling: If it can't reach that server, there's no point in considering it a valid source. If you have no valid sources, there's no current packages. It's working as designed. Not really. See #201842 and #479620. Unfortunately Daniel Burrows still didn't comment on them. Maybe he will show up here? Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Stunned by aptitude.
On 2008-07-02 08:59 +0200, CaT wrote: On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 08:22:59AM +0200, Sven Joachim wrote: Still there should be an option to turn this behavior off, since it is very annoying for people with low bandwith and frequent network problems. In apt-get you can set APT::Get::List-Cleanup=false to avoid erasing the list files if the update failed, but aptitude does not have such an option, AFAIK. I don't think this really applies here. Least not to apt from my reading of this: --list-cleanup This option defaults to on, use --no-list-cleanup to turn it off. When on apt-get will automatically manage the contents of /var/lib/apt/lists to ensure that obsolete files are erased. The only reason to turn it off is if you frequently change your source list. Configuration Item: APT::Get::List-Cleanup. Thanks for correcting me, I was fooled by http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=358320#10. In fact, `apt-get update' failures did _not_ delete the list file regardless of this option when I tried it, so this is only a problem in aptitude. Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 答复 : Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 11:09:18AM +0300, Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: Not really. See #201842 and #479620. Unfortunately Daniel Burrows still didn't comment on them. Maybe he will show up here? The main reason I haven't touched those bugs is that there are many more important things to work on. This behavior might be annoying when it hits you, but the files that are wiped out are all cache files that you can download from the network when your connection is re-established. A secondary reason is that I can't figure out what's going on, because whenever I try taking my network down and running an update, my package lists are still around afterwards. I've read over the code and it looks to me like it only deletes the old package lists when it successfully downloaded new ones. Until I get more of a clue to go on, this looks to me like a way to waste a great deal of time. I put the apt-get and aptitude code up side-by-side and I can only see one difference in the conditions they use to determine whether to clean the lists. I don't see why this would matter (surely pkgAcquire::Run returns Failure if files can't be downloaded?), but if there's anyone who *can* reproduce this on demand, it would be interesting to know if the attached patch helps. Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 14:01 +0800, Magicloud wrote: I don't think so. Obviously, if the network is broken, it absolutely does not mean that there is NO packages, just aptitude can not know. That's by far the most round logic I've heard tonight. What on earth are you talking about? There's no circular logic there. If it can't reach the repository to know about the packages, how in the world do you expect aptitude to know about the packages? He doesn't expect aptitude to know about the package. He just expects aptitude to not assume that it knows that there are no packages when it already knows that communication failed--and therefore, it should know that is doesn't know yet whether there are any packages or no. This gives it no right to erease all information stored locally. It does when you update your package list to contain no packages, then ... But aptitude shouldn't being updating the package list to list no packages when it didn't successfully communicate. It doesn't know that there are no packages. Daniel
Re: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 16:19 +1000, CaT wrote: I believe that would be the point the original poster was getting at. If aptitude is really doing that then it is in the wrong. I understood it, but given that this is how apt has always worked and is documented to work, why change it now? Because it's error-prone. Because it's a poor-quality design. Daniel
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/02/08 08:39, Daniel Burrows wrote: On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 11:09:18AM +0300, Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: Not really. See #201842 and #479620. Unfortunately Daniel Burrows still didn't comment on them. Maybe he will show up here? The main reason I haven't touched those bugs is that there are many more important things to work on. This behavior might be annoying when it hits you, but the files that are wiped out are all cache files that you can download from the network when your connection is re-established. That does not take into consideration all the people who are still on dial-up. A secondary reason is that I can't figure out what's going on, because whenever I try taking my network down and running an update, my package lists are still around afterwards. I've read over the code and it looks to me like it only deletes the old package lists when it successfully downloaded new ones. Until I get more of a clue to go on, this looks to me like a way to waste a great deal of time. I put the apt-get and aptitude code up side-by-side and I can only see one difference in the conditions they use to determine whether to clean the lists. I don't see why this would matter (surely pkgAcquire::Run returns Failure if files can't be downloaded?), but if there's anyone who *can* reproduce this on demand, it would be interesting to know if the attached patch helps. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New York is doomed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkhrkTsACgkQS9HxQb37XmcL/gCgj+/Up41fS5641mBxlQwCr6FA 1FEAoJqyoTr+zKQtwpsrYJ1x2nFN6OCF =AWsZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 答复 : Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 06:39:26AM -0700, Daniel Burrows [EMAIL PROTECTED]
was heard to say:
I put the apt-get and aptitude code up side-by-side and I can only see
one difference in the conditions they use to determine whether to clean
the lists. I don't see why this would matter (surely pkgAcquire::Run
returns Failure if files can't be downloaded?), but if there's anyone
who *can* reproduce this on demand, it would be interesting to know if
the attached patch helps.
Once more, with feeling.
Daniel
diff -r ce31088c455a src/generic/apt/download_update_manager.cc
--- a/src/generic/apt/download_update_manager.cc Sat Jun 28 13:05:54 2008 -0700
+++ b/src/generic/apt/download_update_manager.cc Wed Jul 02 07:39:54 2008 -0700
@@ -279,9 +279,37 @@
if(res != pkgAcquire::Continue)
return failure;
+ bool transientNetworkFailure = true;
+ result rval = success;
+
+ // We need to claim that the download failed if any source failed,
+ // and invoke Finished() on any failed items. Also, we shouldn't
+ // clean the package lists if any individual item failed because it
+ // makes users grumpy (see Debian bugs #201842 and #479620).
+ //
+ // See also apt-get.cc.
+ for(pkgAcquire::ItemIterator it = fetcher-ItemsBegin();
+ it != fetcher-ItemsEnd(); ++it)
+{
+ if((*it)-Status == pkgAcquire::Item::StatDone)
+ continue;
+
+ (*it)-Finished();
+
+ if((*it)-Status == pkgAcquire::Item::StatTransientNetworkError)
+ {
+ transientNetworkFailure = true;
+ continue;
+ }
+
+ // Q: should I display an error message for this source?
+ rval = failure;
+}
+
// Clean old stuff out
- if(fetcher-Clean(aptcfg-FindDir(Dir::State::lists)) == false ||
- fetcher-Clean(aptcfg-FindDir(Dir::State::lists)+partial/) == false)
+ if(rval == success !transientNetworkFailure
+ (fetcher-Clean(aptcfg-FindDir(Dir::State::lists)) == false ||
+ fetcher-Clean(aptcfg-FindDir(Dir::State::lists)+partial/) == false))
{
_error-Error(_(Couldn't clean out list directories));
return failure;
@@ -387,27 +415,6 @@
if(need_forget_new || need_autoclean)
apt_load_cache(progress, true);
- result rval = success;
-
- // We need to claim that the download failed if any source failed,
- // and invoke Finished() on any failed items.
- //
- // See also apt-get.cc.
- for(pkgAcquire::ItemIterator it = fetcher-ItemsBegin();
- it != fetcher-ItemsEnd(); ++it)
-{
- if((*it)-Status == pkgAcquire::Item::StatDone)
- continue;
-
- (*it)-Finished();
-
- if((*it)-Status == pkgAcquire::Item::StatTransientNetworkError)
- continue;
-
- // Q: should I display an error message for this source?
- rval = failure;
-}
-
if(apt_cache_file != NULL need_forget_new)
{
(*apt_cache_file)-forget_new(NULL);
Re: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
On 2008-07-02 15:39 +0200, Daniel Burrows wrote: A secondary reason is that I can't figure out what's going on, because whenever I try taking my network down and running an update, my package lists are still around afterwards. Hm, just a few hours ago I tried that experiment and aptitude deleted them. Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
On 2008-07-02 16:40 +0200, Daniel Burrows wrote: On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 06:39:26AM -0700, Daniel Burrows [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: I put the apt-get and aptitude code up side-by-side and I can only see one difference in the conditions they use to determine whether to clean the lists. I don't see why this would matter (surely pkgAcquire::Run returns Failure if files can't be downloaded?), but if there's anyone who *can* reproduce this on demand, it would be interesting to know if the attached patch helps. Once more, with feeling. I can 100% reproduce the problem, and this patch solves it for me. Cheers, Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
Thank you for trimming unnecessary quotes. On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 09:31 -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 07/02/08 08:39, Daniel Burrows wrote: The main reason I haven't touched those bugs is that there are many more important things to work on. This behavior might be annoying when it hits you, but the files that are wiped out are all cache files that you can download from the network when your connection is re-established. That does not take into consideration all the people who are still on dial-up. What is the usage case for running an update, then performing an autoclean, while offline? That really smacks of pilot, not program, error... -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: 答复: Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 10:03 -0400, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 16:19 +1000, CaT wrote: I believe that would be the point the original poster was getting at. If aptitude is really doing that then it is in the wrong. I understood it, but given that this is how apt has always worked and is documented to work, why change it now? Because it's error-prone. Because it's a poor-quality design. Might want to check yourself before you wreck yourself: The same could be said for your HTML-spewing MUA. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: ??: Stunned by aptitude.
Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 10:03 -0400, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 16:19 +1000, CaT wrote: I believe that would be the point the original poster was getting at. If aptitude is really doing that then it is in the wrong. I understood it, but given that this is how apt has always worked and is documented to work, why change it now? Because it's error-prone. Because it's a poor-quality design. Might want to check yourself before you wreck yourself: The same could be said for your HTML-spewing MUA. Please, it is pointless to make an ad hominem argument. He does have a valid point if you look at if from software users' point of view. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 答复 : Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 05:35:11PM +0200, Sven Joachim [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: On 2008-07-02 16:40 +0200, Daniel Burrows wrote: On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 06:39:26AM -0700, Daniel Burrows [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: I put the apt-get and aptitude code up side-by-side and I can only see one difference in the conditions they use to determine whether to clean the lists. I don't see why this would matter (surely pkgAcquire::Run returns Failure if files can't be downloaded?), but if there's anyone who *can* reproduce this on demand, it would be interesting to know if the attached patch helps. Once more, with feeling. I can 100% reproduce the problem, and this patch solves it for me. Ok, I'll fold it into the next release then. Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Stunned by aptitude.
Hello, When I used aptitude, I noticed that aptitude does not have an error handling mechanism. When I `aptitude update`, if the network is broken (like dns problem, route problem), it can not connect to the server, so it reports error, and clean up local apt record. If I stupidly `aptitude autoclean` then, all my debs are gone. And, during the update, if I find something error, and press C-c, OK, apt record broken, just leave a little.. Why does aptitude do that?
Re: Stunned by aptitude.
On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 09:40 +0800, Magicloud wrote: Hello, When I used aptitude, I noticed that aptitude does not have an error handling mechanism. When I `aptitude update`, if the network is broken (like dns problem, route problem), it can not connect to the server, so it reports error, and clean up local apt record. If I stupidly `aptitude autoclean` then, all my debs are gone. It is doing error handling: If it can't reach that server, there's no point in considering it a valid source. If you have no valid sources, there's no current packages. It's working as designed. -- Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
