Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Stefan Monnier]

> Would anybody care to voice an opinion on USB external hard drives in the
> 2 terabyte size range, for automated backup purposes?

I personally use my external HDDs without enclosures.

I.e. I use a USB<->SATA adapter
(e.g. 
https://www.dx.com/p/usb-3-0-to-sata-22-pin-2-5-hard-disk-driver-adapter-cable-black-18cm-2021357)
and then connect the "raw drives".  The advantage is that the same
adapter cable works for various sizes of drives (e.g. I have some
extra-thick 2½" 2TB drives which don't fit in a normal 2½" enclosure).

Some of those adapters can also be used with 3½" drives (at the cost of
extra work to power the drive, and I'm not sure it's worth the trouble:
I personally stopped using 3½" disks when the 2½" disks crossed the 2TB
threshold).


Stefan

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Ken Heard]

On 26/01/19 03:06 AM, Celejar wrote:

On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:24:56 -0800
"James H. H. Lampert"  wrote:


Fellow List members:

Would anybody care to voice an opinion on USB external hard drives in
the 2 terabyte size range, for automated backup purposes?

We've been looking at the Seagate "Expansion" and the WD "Elements";
I've noticed that on Amazon, both have a fair number of negative reviews
citing reliability issues. (We recently discovered that our current
Seagate had apparently failed on us.)

Any opinions? Seagate? WD? Toshiba? Something else?


I so far am not having any trouble with something called "Seagate Backup 
Plus Portable Drive" -- "product of China (HDD), assembled in Thailand" 
as proudly proclaimed on the cases. These two I purchased in Thailand 
and am using them there. The spec sheet claims that they work with both 
USB 2.0 and 3.0, but likely with a lower transmission speed with 2.0. I 
am using them only on 3.0, not having tried either on 2.0.(1)


They are usable 'right out of the box' with Mac computers and also with 
Micro$oft, complete with built-in 'hardware' encryption if you choose to 
use it.  I of course chose not to use any of it and so reformatted both 
with ext4 and luks encryption.


They also come with a 'limited' three year warranty. I have only had 
them for a year; so far I have had no need to test those 'limitations'. 
Finally they come in six decorator colours, light and dark blue, red, 
gold, silver and black, useful to tell them apart if you have more than 
one.  I stuck to black for both of them as I have another way to tell 
them apart -- relative depth.


The height,width and depth of the 1 TB model are respectively 114, 77 
and 11 mm.  The height and width of the 4 TB model are the same; the 
depth however is 20 mm.  In view of the height and width the 
electro-mechanical drives used in these drive must be the 63.5 mm size. 
In view of the depth difference I suspect that there is one such drive 
in the

1 TB model, but two such drives in the 4 TB model.  Besides
the 1 and 4 TB models, also available are 2 and 5 TB models.

(1) https://www.seagate.com/as/en/consumer/backup/backup-plus/

Ken

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Michael Stone]

On Mon, Feb 04, 2019 at 12:05:08AM +0500, Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:

Turns out you are right. Modern 2.5" HDDs are made to be more demanding,
according to hardware specs available on web sites of WD and Seagate. Only
exception are 2.5" L200 series drives from Toshiba. They require <500mA to
operate.


It's pretty much always been true; 2.5" PATA/SATA->USB2 adapters without 
an external power source typically come with *two* connections to plug 
into the computer (like a USB "Y" cable), so you can draw an aggregate 
1A.  Sometimes you can get away without using both, sometimes not. For 
USB3 adapters, it's common to skip that because the USB3 spec can draw 
close to 1A without the second cable. (Though they won't necessarily 
work properly if plugged into a USB2 port in that case.) The only 2.5" 
spinner I have handy is more than a decade old and requires 960mA to 
spin up--so this definitely isn't a new thing.

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 03/02/2019 à 20:05, Alexander V. Makartsev a écrit :

On 03.02.2019 23:02, Pascal Hambourg wrote:


Some 2,5" drives require more current than the 500 mA a USB 2.0 host
port can provide. Looking at my own, I read 800 mA, 1100 mA, 580 mA,
451 mA. So only one of them is below 500 mA.


I forgot to mention that fortunately, USB 3.0 is becoming more common 
and allows to draw more current.



The PCB can be the same, but it can be equipped with only the
controller, PHY and connector required for the destination.
No need for an adapter PCB, controller and connectors in the
enclosure. Less parts = less assembly cost.


Can you name a make\model, so I can avoid and don't recommend them,


No, sorry. The last time I opened a disk of this kind was several years ago.

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 03.02.2019 23:02, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
> Le 03/02/2019 à 11:22, Alexander V. Makartsev a écrit :
>> On 03.02.2019 15:01, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
>>> Le 03/02/2019 à 10:10, Curt a écrit :
 On 2019-02-03, local10  wrote:
>
> You may want to consider buying an USB HDD enclosure/cradle, like
> this
> one[1] for example, they are cheap and would allow you to use a
> regular internal HDD as a USB drive.
>>>
>>> Note that this solution may require an external power supply.
>>
>> It won't be necessary for 2.5" hard drives. Only 3.5" hard drives
>> require +12V DC to function, which USB interface can not provide.
>
> Some 2,5" drives require more current than the 500 mA a USB 2.0 host
> port can provide. Looking at my own, I read 800 mA, 1100 mA, 580 mA,
> 451 mA. So only one of them is below 500 mA.
Turns out you are right. Modern 2.5" HDDs are made to be more demanding,
according to hardware specs available on web sites of WD and Seagate.
Only exception are 2.5" L200 series drives from Toshiba. They require
<500mA to operate.
Some years ago that wasn't the case, because I still use 250Gb and 120Gb
Seagate HDDs with 2.5" USB2.0 disk enclosure, so I assume WD and Seagate
did that on purpose to make their external hard drive enclosures viable.
*sigh*
>
>> I think it won't be cost-effective to make an
>> entirely new custom PCB for a hard drive that will have both SATA and
>> USB controllers on-board.
>
> The PCB can be the same, but it can be equipped with only the
> controller, PHY and connector required for the destination.
> No need for an adapter PCB, controller and connectors in the
> enclosure. Less parts = less assembly cost.
>
Can you name a make\model, so I can avoid and don't recommend them,
because this alone makes them a solid no-no, because if / once they fail
you won't be able to recover data from them without specialized data
recovery hardware.

-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄ 

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 03/02/2019 à 11:22, Alexander V. Makartsev a écrit :

On 03.02.2019 15:01, Pascal Hambourg wrote:

Le 03/02/2019 à 10:10, Curt a écrit :

On 2019-02-03, local10  wrote:


You may want to consider buying an USB HDD enclosure/cradle, like this
one[1] for example, they are cheap and would allow you to use a
regular internal HDD as a USB drive.


Note that this solution may require an external power supply.


It won't be necessary for 2.5" hard drives. Only 3.5" hard drives
require +12V DC to function, which USB interface can not provide.


Some 2,5" drives require more current than the 500 mA a USB 2.0 host 
port can provide. Looking at my own, I read 800 mA, 1100 mA, 580 mA, 451 
mA. So only one of them is below 500 mA.



What's inside an external drive if not an internal drive?


Sometimes, a drive with a native USB interface instead of a SATA
interface.


Are you sure about that?


Yes, from opening a few of them.


I think it won't be cost-effective to make an
entirely new custom PCB for a hard drive that will have both SATA and
USB controllers on-board.


The PCB can be the same, but it can be equipped with only the 
controller, PHY and connector required for the destination.
No need for an adapter PCB, controller and connectors in the enclosure. 
Less parts = less assembly cost.

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 2/3/19, 2:22 AM, Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:

The only problem with external disk drive enclosures from well known
brands like WD or Seagate is they don't offer a way to open them e.g. to
switch the disk drive inside.


That and the fact that, judging by the price tags (and this also seems 
to be the general consensus both hear and on the OCLUG list server) 
those things have the cheapest consumer-grade hard drives the vendor 
has, whereas making your own, you can make it with a server-grade drive, 
or even (and this is built in at least one enclosure I've seen) a 
mirrored pair of them.


--
JHHL

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 03.02.2019 20:08, David Wright wrote:
> On Sun 03 Feb 2019 at 15:22:26 (+0500), Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:
>> On 03.02.2019 15:01, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
>>> Le 03/02/2019 à 10:10, Curt a écrit :
 On 2019-02-03, local10  wrote:
> You may want to consider buying an USB HDD enclosure/cradle, like this
> one[1] for example, they are cheap and would allow you to use a
> regular internal HDD as a USB drive.
>>> Note that this solution may require an external power supply.
>> It won't be necessary for 2.5" hard drives. Only 3.5" hard drives
>> require +12V DC to function, which USB interface can not provide.
 What's inside an external drive if not an internal drive?
>>> Sometimes, a drive with a native USB interface instead of a SATA
>>> interface.
>>>
>> Are you sure about that? I think it won't be cost-effective to make an
>> entirely new custom PCB for a hard drive that will have both SATA and
>> USB controllers on-board.
>> In my experience it is always a regular SATA hard drive plugged in to a
>> SATA-to-USB adapter.
>> The only problem with external disk drive enclosures from well known
>> brands like WD or Seagate is they don't offer a way to open them e.g. to
>> switch the disk drive inside.
> Wouldn't that kill them? When I retired, I had more drives than I had
> bays to put them in, so I bought a PATA caddy, the old-fashioned
> equivalent of the above. (I'd never bought a drive out of my own pocket.)
>
> Nowaday, youtube caters for USB disassembly, and devices like the above
> cater for reuse of the result, and for the equivalent glut of spare
> SATA drives as PCs are retired.
>
> Cheers,
> David.
>
I don't think it would kill them. I mean there are plethora of
anti-consumer tactics developed by the companies to support them and
external USB HDDs are not the main source of their income.
Also you can always buy an empty USB hard disk case of less known brand
and put any SATA drive inside, assuming USB-to-SATA controller inside
will support the drive's capacity.
They will function the same, but could be easily disassembled to recover
data or to switch HDDs.

-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄ 

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[David Wright]

On Sun 03 Feb 2019 at 15:22:26 (+0500), Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:
> On 03.02.2019 15:01, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
> > Le 03/02/2019 à 10:10, Curt a écrit :
> >> On 2019-02-03, local10  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> You may want to consider buying an USB HDD enclosure/cradle, like this
> >>> one[1] for example, they are cheap and would allow you to use a
> >>> regular internal HDD as a USB drive.
> >
> > Note that this solution may require an external power supply.
> It won't be necessary for 2.5" hard drives. Only 3.5" hard drives
> require +12V DC to function, which USB interface can not provide.
> >
> >> What's inside an external drive if not an internal drive?
> >
> > Sometimes, a drive with a native USB interface instead of a SATA
> > interface.
> >
> Are you sure about that? I think it won't be cost-effective to make an
> entirely new custom PCB for a hard drive that will have both SATA and
> USB controllers on-board.
> In my experience it is always a regular SATA hard drive plugged in to a
> SATA-to-USB adapter.
> The only problem with external disk drive enclosures from well known
> brands like WD or Seagate is they don't offer a way to open them e.g. to
> switch the disk drive inside.

Wouldn't that kill them? When I retired, I had more drives than I had
bays to put them in, so I bought a PATA caddy, the old-fashioned
equivalent of the above. (I'd never bought a drive out of my own pocket.)

Nowaday, youtube caters for USB disassembly, and devices like the above
cater for reuse of the result, and for the equivalent glut of spare
SATA drives as PCs are retired.

Cheers,
David.

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Joe]

On Sun, 3 Feb 2019 11:01:33 +0100
Pascal Hambourg  wrote:

> Le 03/02/2019 à 10:10, Curt a écrit :
> > On 2019-02-03, local10  wrote:  
> >>
> >> You may want to consider buying an USB HDD enclosure/cradle, like
> >> this one[1] for example, they are cheap and would allow you to use
> >> a regular internal HDD as a USB drive.  
> 
> Note that this solution may require an external power supply.
> 
> > What's inside an external drive if not an internal drive?  
> 
> Sometimes, a drive with a native USB interface instead of a SATA
> interface.
> 

I've only ever seen one of those, a Samsung external drive which is
really shirt-pocket-sized, the smallest I've ever seen. Unfortunately,
mine is failing now, and they don't make a similar type today.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-160GB-Ultra-Portable-Pocket/dp/B002HLVO3M

-- 
Joe

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Curt]

On 2019-02-03, Pascal Hambourg  wrote:
> Le 03/02/2019 à 10:10, Curt a écrit :
>> On 2019-02-03, local10  wrote:
>>>
>>> You may want to consider buying an USB HDD enclosure/cradle, like this
>>> one[1] for example, they are cheap and would allow you to use a
>>> regular internal HDD as a USB drive.
>
> Note that this solution may require an external power supply.
>
>> What's inside an external drive if not an internal drive?
>
> Sometimes, a drive with a native USB interface instead of a SATA interface.
>
>

I just read something to that effect from the Western Digital people
(who can't tell you which is which, it seems, for their products).

https://support.wdc.com/knowledgebase/answer.aspx?ID=1704

You'd think the difference between a USB enclosure for an internal SATA
drive and an external USB drive with a SATA disk and interface in its
innards might be somewhat less than minimal (all else being
equal).

I've no notion whether native USB on the inside might be superior,
inferior, or simply kif-kif reliability-wise (not to mention speed). 

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 03.02.2019 15:01, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
> Le 03/02/2019 à 10:10, Curt a écrit :
>> On 2019-02-03, local10  wrote:
>>>
>>> You may want to consider buying an USB HDD enclosure/cradle, like this
>>> one[1] for example, they are cheap and would allow you to use a
>>> regular internal HDD as a USB drive.
>
> Note that this solution may require an external power supply.
It won't be necessary for 2.5" hard drives. Only 3.5" hard drives
require +12V DC to function, which USB interface can not provide.
>
>> What's inside an external drive if not an internal drive?
>
> Sometimes, a drive with a native USB interface instead of a SATA
> interface.
>
Are you sure about that? I think it won't be cost-effective to make an
entirely new custom PCB for a hard drive that will have both SATA and
USB controllers on-board.
In my experience it is always a regular SATA hard drive plugged in to a
SATA-to-USB adapter.
The only problem with external disk drive enclosures from well known
brands like WD or Seagate is they don't offer a way to open them e.g. to
switch the disk drive inside.

-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄ 

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 03/02/2019 à 10:10, Curt a écrit :

On 2019-02-03, local10  wrote:


You may want to consider buying an USB HDD enclosure/cradle, like this
one[1] for example, they are cheap and would allow you to use a
regular internal HDD as a USB drive.


Note that this solution may require an external power supply.


What's inside an external drive if not an internal drive?


Sometimes, a drive with a native USB interface instead of a SATA interface.

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Curt]

On 2019-02-03, local10  wrote:
>>>
>>> Would anybody care to voice an opinion on USB external hard drives in the 2 
>>> terabyte size range, for automated backup purposes?
>>>
>
>
> You may want to consider buying an USB HDD enclosure/cradle, like this
> one[1] for example, they are cheap and would allow you to use a
> regular internal HDD as a USB drive. I use similar scheme for my own
> backups, it works reasonably well.
>

What's inside an external drive if not an internal drive?


>
> [1] - https://www.ebay.com/itm/253631205544 
> 
>

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Toni Mas i Soler]

I bought "Seagate Expansion STEA3000400" to plug in to a Raspberry PI 3. It
don't need extra power suply. I use to backup my data.

Toni Mas


Missatge de local10  del dia dg., 3 de febr. 2019 a
les 1:20:

> On 1/25/19 9:24 AM, James H. H. Lampert wrote:
>
> >> Fellow List members:
> >>
> >> Would anybody care to voice an opinion on USB external hard drives in
> the 2 terabyte size range, for automated backup purposes?
> >>
>
>
> You may want to consider buying an USB HDD enclosure/cradle, like this
> one[1] for example, they are cheap and would allow you to use a regular
> internal HDD as a USB drive. I use similar scheme for my own backups, it
> works reasonably well.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> [1] - https://www.ebay.com/itm/253631205544 <
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/253631205544>
>
>

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[local10]

On 1/25/19 9:24 AM, James H. H. Lampert wrote:

>> Fellow List members:
>>
>> Would anybody care to voice an opinion on USB external hard drives in the 2 
>> terabyte size range, for automated backup purposes?
>>


You may want to consider buying an USB HDD enclosure/cradle, like this one[1] 
for example, they are cheap and would allow you to use a regular internal HDD 
as a USB drive. I use similar scheme for my own backups, it works reasonably 
well.

Regards,


[1] - https://www.ebay.com/itm/253631205544 

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Celejar]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 15:33:33 -0600
David Wright  wrote:

> On Fri 25 Jan 2019 at 15:06:25 (-0500), Celejar wrote:
> 
> > One major annoyance (and I don't know if this is a problem affecting
> > all USB external drives, or is related to my cables, USB ports, drives,
> > or something else) is that the connections are terribly fragile: moving
> > the drive, or even just jostling it, will usually result in the
> > connection failing, and require replugging the cable and remounting
> > (followed by an fsck) to continue. [FWIW, these are 2.5 inch drives -
> > 3.5 may be sturdier, but I don't really know.]
> 
> In this respect, I find (with Seagate 3½ drives) that the USB3 cables
> are far worse than USB2. For their lateral size, the USB3 plug's
> insertion depth is so shallow that there's little grip, and the cables
> (which probably contain more conductors) are stiffer, so any movement
> sideways and they can fall out. The cables are shorter too; one metre
> as opposed to two. I only use USB3 drives with a laptop when it's on
> the table. For professional installations, I can't see any cure
> because vibration is going loosen them even if everything is tied down.

I hear you. I generally use my USB3 2.5 inch WD drives on a table with
my laptop, but still find that the slightest jostle will kill the
connection.

Celejar

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Celejar]

On Sat, 26 Jan 2019 03:15:37 +0500
"Alexander V. Makartsev"  wrote:

> On 26.01.2019 2:28, Celejar wrote:
> > On Sat, 26 Jan 2019 01:09:59 +0500
> > "Alexander V. Makartsev"  wrote:
> >
> > ...
> >
> >> If you value your data, my recommendation is to get inexpensive NAS with
> >> iSCSI, like Synology DS218j and run two disks in RAID1 for redundancy.
> >> This decision has many advantages, like:
> >> 1. You still will have your data even in case one drive fails or gets
> >> multiple bad blocks, so that 60Gb Virtual HD image will not turn out to
> >> be a punch card when you will try to use it as a backup.
> > RAID is for uptime, availability, performance - not ensuring the safety
> > of valuable data.
> >
> > https://www.raidisnotabackup.com/
> >
> > Backing up properly is the only way to safeguard valuable data. With
> > proper backups, your data will be safe with or without RAID. Without
> > proper backups, your data will not be safe with or without RAID.
> >
> > Celejar
> >
> >
> Well, James asked for advice on USB disk drive that will be used as
> storage for backups.

Ah, I think I misunderstood somewhat. I interpreted your recommendation
to mean a single copy of the data on the NAS, not that the NAS was a
backup target for data stored primarily somewhere else.

> It may seem like overkill, but I would prefer to be sure that my backups
> are safe and consistent, because there are many ways things could go wrong.
> 
> Speaking of RAID in general, I can see usefulness of URL you provided,
> but only as a guide to fight with "I have RAID, it works, so I can
> forget about it" kind of mentality of inexperienced people.
> Yes, backup is important, but it is also important to be sure that your
> backup will not fail you when you will need it the most, so using RAID
> with proper monitoring and servicing procedures is always better than
> just one drive.

Fair enough.

Celejar

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Cindy-Sue Causey]

On 1/25/19, Peter Ehlert  wrote:
> On 1/25/19 9:24 AM, James H. H. Lampert wrote:
>> Fellow List members:
>>
>> Would anybody care to voice an opinion on USB external hard drives in
>> the 2 terabyte size range, for automated backup purposes?
>>
>> We've been looking at the Seagate "Expansion" and the WD "Elements";
>> I've noticed that on Amazon, both have a fair number of negative
>> reviews citing reliability issues. (We recently discovered that our
>> current Seagate had apparently failed on us.)
>>
>> Any opinions? Seagate? WD? Toshiba? Something else?
>
>
> I avoid USB drives, in preference to internal drives... speed and security.
> When I use them I am extremely careful, because they all seem to have a
> spinning disk inside, not shock resistant, and subject to early failure
> due to heat.
> I do have several, but they are not what I really Trust to keep precious
> data.
>
> a separate box that is out of harm is best, even a separate low end
> computer to act as a storage device.
> syncthing is my tool of choice to sync from my laptop to a desktop
> then LuckyBackup on a schedule to Copy the sync folder into a second
> Storage drive.


I've gone the (open, not enclosed) external hard drive route. It's
what I'm using right now. It's a ~4-year-old single bay dock that
handles one 3TB WD fine but mounts and unmounts ENDLESSLY when another
of the exact same make/model is inserted.

The other hard drive feels like it's "swaying" this dock so the hard
drive must keep unseating itself or something. It was my
Life-on-the-fly ah-ha moment about why some of these things are rated
for no more than 2TB. Must be all about the physics of the (totally
cool) momentum going on inside those hard drive cases

Docks and similar are "hinky" at best. They have unreliable stability
regardless of the brand k/t one's environment's effect on that
external USB connection. In my case, it's a mix of my klutziness and
my dogs always clamoring around right next to me here as I type.

Brand-wise, I've used 3 hard drives mentioned here: HGST, Seagate, and
WD. All three have worked AMAZINGLY under the ongoing duress of
_extreme_ temperature _extremes_.

KNOCK ON WOOD, not one has ever had a hardware failure that was not
Human inflicted. ALL have been bottom dollar refurbished products.

Thanks to being a poverty level techie, my backup picks to date have
been about using a mix of docks and those $10 to $15 wired
contraptions that offer you the ability to dip back into your old PATA
hard drives. On a whim last year, I purchased one of those
contraptions for no reason. It became a $4.52 Lifesaver a few weeks
later.

I was able to use that contraption to yank a *PATA* hard drive from an
approximate 2002 Hewlett Packard laptop, install some Puppy Linux
friendly files, and get back to accessing the Net via (GACK!)
hsfmodem. Until that moment, "that other operating system" had been my
modem provider for years, but it finally met the match of someone able
to crack/hack into it and bring it to its knees.

All Linux now, baby, specifically thanks to that $4.52 spent on one of
the flakiest backup options possibly available

 BUT on the flipside, I have a heartbreaking, Life changing data loss
story related to that same kind of contraption six years ago. Moral of
the story for the archives: ONLY FOR EMERGENCIES, not daily use, but
it doesn't hurt to have one or two laying around just because they're
that cheap. Oh, and they DO actually work. :)

Turns out the contraption I bought is deemed a/an "HDD cable
converter". I call it girl's best friend forever:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIABR04YT8223

That was bought while researching going the server route. I don't
fully understand RAID (yet?), but I do keep hearing about problems
with users losing data when something inevitably crashes.

Those same data losses occur regularly with USB connections. I
mitigate by consciously, regularly unmounting then remounting
partitions like my massive photography backups after new data has been
included. May be a false sense of security, but I haven't noticed any
important data loss ever since pursuing that route toward data
protection.

A server type setup could be better (less flakily) hardwired than USB.
That's my interest in it. Prices are *almost* attainable at literally
abject poverty level so surely they're accessible to anyone anywhere
outside that demographic.

Even if a final server choice's hardwire connector is something not
available on a favored laptop or "pad" whoosie-what's-it, there seems
to be no end to the type of 99 cent adapters available to work around
that setback. That CHOICE can open up its own can of worms with
respect to flaky connections that inevitably lead to data loss, but
anyway. :)

PS I was just looking at that converter listing one more time before
sending this off. $4.52 a while back, and there they claim "No limit
on hard drive capacity".

That's going to at least in part be about that sway 

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Jens Holzhäuser]

Build your own.

Buy an enclosure, you can chose the USB/SATA chip within limits
yourself. I prefer metal enclosures for better heat dissipation.

For the disk to put into that enclosure, you could refer to the yearly
Backblaze report for some more statistical meaningful numbers than
"anecdotal" stories:
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-stats-for-2018/ 

But keep in mind that the environmental conditions there will most
likely not match yours, and your mileage will vary. And, you will need
to be prepared to lose your drive *at any time* anyway, regardless of
how "good" the drive type seems to be.

So the criteria for choosing one are like this

 - one of the major manufacturers
 - meets your technical specs (size, speed, rpm, desktop/NAS type, ...)
 - longest warranty (to minimize the risk of financial loss in the event
   of a drive failure)

for the best price.

I don't know if the general impression that 3.5" drives are more robust
than 2.5" ones is (still) valid, but I always use 3.5" personally. 


Jens


On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 05:34:37PM -0800, Peter Ehlert wrote:
> I avoid USB drives, in preference to internal drives... speed and security.
> When I use them I am extremely careful, because they all seem to have a
> spinning disk inside, not shock resistant, and subject to early failure due
> to heat.
> I do have several, but they are not what I really Trust to keep precious
> data.
> 
> a separate box that is out of harm is best, even a separate low end computer
> to act as a storage device.
> syncthing is my tool of choice to sync from my laptop to a desktop
> then LuckyBackup on a schedule to Copy the sync folder into a second Storage
> drive.
> 
> Sorry, no recommendation, others have already spoke up and they know more
> than me about USB storage
> 
> On 1/25/19 9:24 AM, James H. H. Lampert wrote:
> > Fellow List members:
> > 
> > Would anybody care to voice an opinion on USB external hard drives in
> > the 2 terabyte size range, for automated backup purposes?
> > 
> > We've been looking at the Seagate "Expansion" and the WD "Elements";
> > I've noticed that on Amazon, both have a fair number of negative reviews
> > citing reliability issues. (We recently discovered that our current
> > Seagate had apparently failed on us.)
> > 
> > Any opinions? Seagate? WD? Toshiba? Something else?

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Peter Ehlert]

I avoid USB drives, in preference to internal drives... speed and security.
When I use them I am extremely careful, because they all seem to have a 
spinning disk inside, not shock resistant, and subject to early failure 
due to heat.
I do have several, but they are not what I really Trust to keep precious 
data.


a separate box that is out of harm is best, even a separate low end 
computer to act as a storage device.

syncthing is my tool of choice to sync from my laptop to a desktop
then LuckyBackup on a schedule to Copy the sync folder into a second 
Storage drive.


Sorry, no recommendation, others have already spoke up and they know 
more than me about USB storage


On 1/25/19 9:24 AM, James H. H. Lampert wrote:

Fellow List members:

Would anybody care to voice an opinion on USB external hard drives in 
the 2 terabyte size range, for automated backup purposes?


We've been looking at the Seagate "Expansion" and the WD "Elements"; 
I've noticed that on Amazon, both have a fair number of negative 
reviews citing reliability issues. (We recently discovered that our 
current Seagate had apparently failed on us.)


Any opinions? Seagate? WD? Toshiba? Something else?

--
JHHL

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 26.01.2019 2:28, Celejar wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jan 2019 01:09:59 +0500
> "Alexander V. Makartsev"  wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> If you value your data, my recommendation is to get inexpensive NAS with
>> iSCSI, like Synology DS218j and run two disks in RAID1 for redundancy.
>> This decision has many advantages, like:
>> 1. You still will have your data even in case one drive fails or gets
>> multiple bad blocks, so that 60Gb Virtual HD image will not turn out to
>> be a punch card when you will try to use it as a backup.
> RAID is for uptime, availability, performance - not ensuring the safety
> of valuable data.
>
> https://www.raidisnotabackup.com/
>
> Backing up properly is the only way to safeguard valuable data. With
> proper backups, your data will be safe with or without RAID. Without
> proper backups, your data will not be safe with or without RAID.
>
> Celejar
>
>
Well, James asked for advice on USB disk drive that will be used as
storage for backups.
It may seem like overkill, but I would prefer to be sure that my backups
are safe and consistent, because there are many ways things could go wrong.

Speaking of RAID in general, I can see usefulness of URL you provided,
but only as a guide to fight with "I have RAID, it works, so I can
forget about it" kind of mentality of inexperienced people.
Yes, backup is important, but it is also important to be sure that your
backup will not fail you when you will need it the most, so using RAID
with proper monitoring and servicing procedures is always better than
just one drive.

-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄ 

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[David Wright]

On Fri 25 Jan 2019 at 15:06:25 (-0500), Celejar wrote:

> One major annoyance (and I don't know if this is a problem affecting
> all USB external drives, or is related to my cables, USB ports, drives,
> or something else) is that the connections are terribly fragile: moving
> the drive, or even just jostling it, will usually result in the
> connection failing, and require replugging the cable and remounting
> (followed by an fsck) to continue. [FWIW, these are 2.5 inch drives -
> 3.5 may be sturdier, but I don't really know.]

In this respect, I find (with Seagate 3½ drives) that the USB3 cables
are far worse than USB2. For their lateral size, the USB3 plug's
insertion depth is so shallow that there's little grip, and the cables
(which probably contain more conductors) are stiffer, so any movement
sideways and they can fall out. The cables are shorter too; one metre
as opposed to two. I only use USB3 drives with a laptop when it's on
the table. For professional installations, I can't see any cure
because vibration is going loosen them even if everything is tied down.

Cheers,
David.

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Celejar]

On Sat, 26 Jan 2019 01:09:59 +0500
"Alexander V. Makartsev"  wrote:

...

> If you value your data, my recommendation is to get inexpensive NAS with
> iSCSI, like Synology DS218j and run two disks in RAID1 for redundancy.
> This decision has many advantages, like:
> 1. You still will have your data even in case one drive fails or gets
> multiple bad blocks, so that 60Gb Virtual HD image will not turn out to
> be a punch card when you will try to use it as a backup.

RAID is for uptime, availability, performance - not ensuring the safety
of valuable data.

https://www.raidisnotabackup.com/

Backing up properly is the only way to safeguard valuable data. With
proper backups, your data will be safe with or without RAID. Without
proper backups, your data will not be safe with or without RAID.

Celejar

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 25.01.2019 22:24, James H. H. Lampert wrote:
> Fellow List members:
>
> Would anybody care to voice an opinion on USB external hard drives in
> the 2 terabyte size range, for automated backup purposes?
>
> We've been looking at the Seagate "Expansion" and the WD "Elements";
> I've noticed that on Amazon, both have a fair number of negative
> reviews citing reliability issues. (We recently discovered that our
> current Seagate had apparently failed on us.)
>
> Any opinions? Seagate? WD? Toshiba? Something else?
>
> -- 
> JHHL
>
All modern HDDs are a bit of a gamble, especially higher capacity ones.
They could fail even while still being under warranty and it is no
matter what make\model they are.
IMO all those external USB storages with 3.5" disks are made to fail
within a couple months after warranty expiration date.
Because, they utilize cheapest hard disk models with reduced firmware
functionality, some of them can't even show SMART table, because of
cheap USB-to-SATA controller, and they also lacking adequate cooling.

If you value your data, my recommendation is to get inexpensive NAS with
iSCSI, like Synology DS218j and run two disks in RAID1 for redundancy.
This decision has many advantages, like:
1. You still will have your data even in case one drive fails or gets
multiple bad blocks, so that 60Gb Virtual HD image will not turn out to
be a punch card when you will try to use it as a backup.
2. It helps with drives' cooling and monitor their health.
3. Synology runs on Linux under the hood and allows end user to access
shell. This could be used to check RAID array for consistency on demand,
so you will not be caught off guard when drives eventually develop bad
blocks.
4. Using NAS as iSCSI target allows you to get the same functionality as
if it was USB connected hard drive, among the other functionalities.

Not all disk drives are the same, so search in specifications for RPM
speed (performance), cache amount, presence of vibration sensors (so
drives could safely function close to each other) and Error Recovery
Control (so drives won't hung entire RAID array in case one of them
fails). In general they are marketed as "NAS drives".
Seagate IronWolf and IronWolf Pro series.
WD Red and Red Pro series.
Toshiba N300 Series.
The ones from Toshiba are my personal choice. They are cheaper, have all
required functionality and offer 7200RPM performance without flashy
marketing with "Pro" suffix. The only down side is they have 3 year
warranty, while Seagate and WD offer 5 year warranty. Still, I had WD
Black drives that also come with 5 year warranty and they failed within
3 years with various reasons. Of course they were RMA'd, but still lost
their data. Like I said it is a gamble, so it's better to have some
insurance.

-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄ 

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[Celejar]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:24:56 -0800
"James H. H. Lampert"  wrote:

> Fellow List members:
> 
> Would anybody care to voice an opinion on USB external hard drives in 
> the 2 terabyte size range, for automated backup purposes?
> 
> We've been looking at the Seagate "Expansion" and the WD "Elements"; 
> I've noticed that on Amazon, both have a fair number of negative reviews 
> citing reliability issues. (We recently discovered that our current 
> Seagate had apparently failed on us.)
> 
> Any opinions? Seagate? WD? Toshiba? Something else?

This kind of question always results in wildly conflicting anecdotal
reports: "I've had 67 WD failures in the last two weeks, and I swear
I'll never buy anything but HGST going forward!" "Well, I've lost twice
as many HGST drives over the last year than all other brands combined,
so they're absolutely the worst!"

My very limited anecdotal experience: I've been using two WD Elements
(1 TB / 2TB) for the last few years for external / off-site backup and
storage, and they've both served me pretty well. One of them (the
older, 1 TB one) occasionally fails to be recognized by my computer,
but trying a different USB port, or just waiting and trying again later,
has always fixed the problem.

One major annoyance (and I don't know if this is a problem affecting
all USB external drives, or is related to my cables, USB ports, drives,
or something else) is that the connections are terribly fragile: moving
the drive, or even just jostling it, will usually result in the
connection failing, and require replugging the cable and remounting
(followed by an fsck) to continue. [FWIW, these are 2.5 inch drives -
3.5 may be sturdier, but I don't really know.]

Celejar

Re: USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[deloptes]

James H. H. Lampert wrote:

> Would anybody care to voice an opinion on USB external hard drives in
> the 2 terabyte size range, for automated backup purposes?
> 
> We've been looking at the Seagate "Expansion" and the WD "Elements";
> I've noticed that on Amazon, both have a fair number of negative reviews
> citing reliability issues. (We recently discovered that our current
> Seagate had apparently failed on us.)
> 
> Any opinions? Seagate? WD? Toshiba? Something else?

since couple of years I buy WD RED NAS Model WD20EFRX

I read pretty negative comments about same but 3 or 4TB, but I have may be
4-5 years using the red without issues, while allmost all Seagates gave up

USB hard drives -- recommendations?

[James H. H. Lampert]

Fellow List members:

Would anybody care to voice an opinion on USB external hard drives in 
the 2 terabyte size range, for automated backup purposes?


We've been looking at the Seagate "Expansion" and the WD "Elements"; 
I've noticed that on Amazon, both have a fair number of negative reviews 
citing reliability issues. (We recently discovered that our current 
Seagate had apparently failed on us.)


Any opinions? Seagate? WD? Toshiba? Something else?

--
JHHL