Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[David]

Nate Bargmann wrote:

* Dan H <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008 Jan 09 08:29 -0600]:


Side note: I just can't get my head around GUI stuff, and my wife is
increasingly annoyed by the GNOME desktop I installed for her and wants
to go back to Windows. After more than a decade of working on
well-honed (for my needs) Linux systems my attempts to install and
configure GUI desktops and applications have shown me how far Linux is
removed from everyday desktop useability.


I'm not trolling, but am posing a serious question,  Have you had her
try KDE?  She may find it more to her liking.


And Icewm, which has more of a Windows style menu structure.
Regards,

--
David Palmer
Linux User - #352034


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Nate Bargmann]

* Dan H <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008 Jan 09 08:29 -0600]:

> Side note: I just can't get my head around GUI stuff, and my wife is
> increasingly annoyed by the GNOME desktop I installed for her and wants
> to go back to Windows. After more than a decade of working on
> well-honed (for my needs) Linux systems my attempts to install and
> configure GUI desktops and applications have shown me how far Linux is
> removed from everyday desktop useability.

I'm not trolling, but am posing a serious question,  Have you had her
try KDE?  She may find it more to her liking.

- Nate >>

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Hans Vogelsberger]

I am afraid I am responsible for this thread. Therefore just some words.


Chris Howie is reported to have said about spam:

... people could stop talking about it and get back to their lives, since it
was fixed some hours ago.



Wayne Topa wrote:
... This seems to come up at least once a year.  People
complaining about too much spam on the list and what the 'list admins'
should do about it.  It very sad.


It is not sad, it is absolutely necessary. Of course the list 
responsibles do their best. It is not their fault that every now and 
then their dams break. But words much harsher than they deserve are 
unavoidable to make them work as hard and as fast as possible to rebuild 
those dams and thus to save the usability of this list. As far as I know 
since testing came up in potato days, they can stand such words.


There were dangerous phishing mails, too. Who knows when the one or the 
other state attorney gets the idea to make listmasters responsible as 
accomplices! That would be ridiculous, of course, but here in Europe 
there exists that kind of officials, and remembering one Tartuffe in 
pre-bushocratic cigar 'smoking' times, I am afraid, in the US even more so.



I searched for a cure and, at the time, found it in the debian mailfilter

> package. ... Mailfilter, for those that don't know, deletes the spam at

the ISP, so I don't have to download it.


So do I, also since years. And it was my mailfilter log which gave me 
reason to begin this thread. But there was also some spam and phishing 
coming through, because mailfilter only checks headers and does not 
delete postings coming in while Icedove (Debian Thunderbird) is running.



A new mailfilter type program came out 2-3 years ago.  It improves on
the mailfilter (headers only) method by including a mail body check.
The program is called murx 


Well, I remember having read this name, but I never tried it. In my 
language 'Murks' means something like 'made with Pfusch' and Pfusch, 
pronounced after the initial consonants like 'Bush', means something 
like 'total lack of professionality'. I think I shall try this murx 
program soon, no longer being afraid of a lame duck. You see, tips like 
this one are the second reason why it is not at all sad that people 
complain against spam.


> In fact, my logs show more messages compiling about spam, then spam
> messages.  About a 5-6 to 1 ratio.

That is correct, especially after the listmasters have stopped the flood 
of spam.


Anyhow, thanks and many thanks again to the listmasters to save the list 
that fast. And, please, excuse my harsh postings - though, I am sure I 
shall do it again whenn I feel it is necessary. So, I beg for 
forgiveness in advance, too.


Thank you, too, for reading thus far
Hans Vogelsberger

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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello *,

Am 2008-01-08 14:34:55, schrieb Jochen Schulz:
> Hans Vogelsberger:
> > 
> > [...] Well, in the meantime it seems that every spam is let through 
> > by the debian-user filters.
> 
> No: .
> 
> The amount of spam that has passed the listserver's filter mechanisms in
> the last few days might be large, but it is still only a tiny fraction
> of what's actually coming in at lists.debian.org.
> 
> Sometimes I have the impression that the people who complain the most
> about spam from Debian lists are the ones who don't even know how *bad*
> the spam problem actually is. Even on my own mail server with only four
> valid mail addresses plus some aliases I reject more than a thousand
> delivery attempts every day. Receiving 20-50 spam mails a day is surely
> an annoyance. But you are still only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

FullACK! -- I am using 76 E-Mail-Adresses at my ISP and since 2007-12-17
I am hit daily by over 300.000 messages.

Now the spam is going back to arround 48.000 per day but I am arround 2
weeks behinde with spamfiltering since my @home mailserver was gone and
now I am using a reserve mainboard/cpu with only 384 MB of memory which
can not handel more then 70.000 messages a day...

AFTER filtering I get only 30-80 spams through my filters...

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Dan H]

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 04:35:42 +0100 (CET)
"s. keeling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jochen Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> It amazes me that they refuse to accept the obvious.
> Linux/Debian/Gnu provides all the solutions they need, yet they
> continue to rely on Lookout! and Gmail, instead of slapping in
> procmail/mailfilter and bogofilter/SA.  Huh.  I've no sympathy,
> sorry.  I'm not seeing a crap flood from where I'm sitting.

Spam filtering ain't so easy. OK, I have shell access to the UNIX server from 
which I get my email via IMAP, so I'm filtering server-side using procmail and 
ifile. Every now and then I feed in "ham" and "spam" mailboxes by hand via the 
shell.

But I'll change my job in a few weeks and won't be on that server any more, so 
I installed the bogofilter plugin for Claws-Mail to try some client-side 
filtering.

Well, it doesn't filter worth shit. I keep marking stuff as "spam" and "ham", 
but the filter does plain nothing. 

Side note: I just can't get my head around GUI stuff, and my wife is 
increasingly annoyed by the GNOME desktop I installed for her and wants to go 
back to Windows. After more than a decade of working on well-honed (for my 
needs) Linux systems my attempts to install and configure GUI desktops and 
applications have shown me how far Linux is removed from everyday desktop 
useability.

What I want to say is: I have a great MUA and a highly praised SPAM filter, but 
if I have to cruise mailing lists for weeks to figure out how to get it to 
work, "slapping in" is not the proper term to describe the installation process.

--D.


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Martin Marcher]

Raquel wrote:
> I think that this is what bothers me.  I'm on at least a dozen lists
> other than debian-user and debian-isp.  However, the 2 Debian lists
> are the ONLY ones from which come SPAM and viruses.

Go figure, debian is supported by volunteers. If you can handle the spam
problem better, go ahead sent a mail to the listmasters and offer them your
help.

martin

PS: but I got at least twice as much "spam" from the "OMG there's actually
spam" threads than I got from the lottery, pr0n and pharmacy guys. I'm
thinking about redefining my view on spam...

PPS: yes I'm aware of the paradoxon that this mail just adds one more spam
message.

-- 
http://noneisyours.marcher.name
http://feeds.feedburner.com/NoneIsYours

You are not free to read this message,
by doing so, you have violated my licence
and are required to urinate publicly. Thank you.


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Ron Johnson]

On 01/09/08 02:16, Shane D wrote:

The reason I don't do that, and trust me, I didn't see that much of it, is:
(A)I am not advanced at the use of Linux (although I could call muyself a geek)


There's only one way to become advanced at Linux: attempt something 
advanced.


Like setting up a "mail server" on your PC using fetchmail, postfix 
or exim4, spamassassin or bogofilter, and procmail or maildrop.



(B)I need something that can talk to me effectively, and guess what
guys: Linux sort of loses that bet for e-mail.


You're disabled (I refuse to say "differently abled") and need 
speech synthesis?



So, I'll be here in gMail getting my spam (which all goes to the spam thing now)

On 1/8/08, Charlie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, s. keeling shared this with us all:

--} It amazes me that they refuse to accept the obvious.  Linux/Debian/Gnu
--} provides all the solutions they need, yet they continue to rely on
--} Lookout! and Gmail, instead of slapping in procmail/mailfilter and
--} bogofilter/SA.  Huh.  I've no sympathy, sorry.  I'm not seeing a crap
--} flood from where I'm sitting.
--}

I don't think many of us do who use the applications you mention above.

I have to admit that I knew there was a spam surge because I received 5 to 7
spam mails in my trash and then went to my mailfilter logs just to check it
out.

It was confirmed by the posts to the D-U list. Demonstrating that many
people
are still not relying on or trusting Debian to have what they require? Or
maybe those of us that do know, are not letting it be known widely enough?


--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

"I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian
because I hate vegetables!"
unknown


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Shane D]

The reason I don't do that, and trust me, I didn't see that much of it, is:
(A)I am not advanced at the use of Linux (although I could call muyself a geek)
(B)I need something that can talk to me effectively, and guess what
guys: Linux sort of loses that bet for e-mail.

So, I'll be here in gMail getting my spam (which all goes to the spam thing now)

On 1/8/08, Charlie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, s. keeling shared this with us all:
> >--} It amazes me that they refuse to accept the obvious.  Linux/Debian/Gnu
> >--} provides all the solutions they need, yet they continue to rely on
> >--} Lookout! and Gmail, instead of slapping in procmail/mailfilter and
> >--} bogofilter/SA.  Huh.  I've no sympathy, sorry.  I'm not seeing a crap
> >--} flood from where I'm sitting.
> >--}
>
> I don't think many of us do who use the applications you mention above.
>
> I have to admit that I knew there was a spam surge because I received 5 to 7
> spam mails in my trash and then went to my mailfilter logs just to check it
> out.
>
> It was confirmed by the posts to the D-U list. Demonstrating that many
> people
> are still not relying on or trusting Debian to have what they require? Or
> maybe those of us that do know, are not letting it be known widely enough?
>
> Be well,
> Charlie
> --
> Registered Linux User:- 329524
> **
> The law will never make men free, it is men that have to make the law
> free. .Henry David Thoreau
> <<<>>>
> Debian - Just the best way to do magic.
>
>


-- 
-Shane
Blog: http://blind-geek.com/blog/
CoOwner: http://sjtechzone.com
AIM: inhaddict
Skype: chatter8712


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Charlie]

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, s. keeling shared this with us all:
>--} It amazes me that they refuse to accept the obvious.  Linux/Debian/Gnu
>--} provides all the solutions they need, yet they continue to rely on
>--} Lookout! and Gmail, instead of slapping in procmail/mailfilter and
>--} bogofilter/SA.  Huh.  I've no sympathy, sorry.  I'm not seeing a crap
>--} flood from where I'm sitting.
>--}

I don't think many of us do who use the applications you mention above.

I have to admit that I knew there was a spam surge because I received 5 to 7 
spam mails in my trash and then went to my mailfilter logs just to check it 
out.

It was confirmed by the posts to the D-U list. Demonstrating that many people 
are still not relying on or trusting Debian to have what they require? Or 
maybe those of us that do know, are not letting it be known widely enough?

Be well,
Charlie
-- 
Registered Linux User:- 329524
**
The law will never make men free, it is men that have to make the law 
free. .Henry David Thoreau
<<<>>>
Debian - Just the best way to do magic.

Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Alex Samad]

On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 04:35:42AM +0100, s. keeling wrote:
> Jochen Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > 
> >  Sometimes I have the impression that the people who complain the most
> >  about spam from Debian lists are the ones who don't even know how *bad*
> >  the spam problem actually is. Even on my own mail server with only four
> 
> Recent estimates I've seen suggest up to 80% of the traffic on the net
> is spam or malware.
> 
> >  valid mail addresses plus some aliases I reject more than a thousand
> >  delivery attempts every day. Receiving 20-50 spam mails a day is surely
> >  an annoyance. But you are still only seeing the tip of the iceberg.
> 
> It amazes me that they refuse to accept the obvious.  Linux/Debian/Gnu
> provides all the solutions they need, yet they continue to rely on
> Lookout! and Gmail, instead of slapping in procmail/mailfilter and
> bogofilter/SA.  Huh.  I've no sympathy, sorry.  I'm not seeing a crap
> flood from where I'm sitting.
all relative, I have seen a flood (well 5-8 extra ons pop up), I have sa, grey 
listing and my primary mx doesn't accept port 25.

me agree a flood, but by no means anything more than a small annoyance :)
> 
> 
> -- 
> Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
> (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html  Linux Counter #80292
> - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me.
> 
> 
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> 
> 


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[s. keeling]

Jochen Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
>  Sometimes I have the impression that the people who complain the most
>  about spam from Debian lists are the ones who don't even know how *bad*
>  the spam problem actually is. Even on my own mail server with only four

Recent estimates I've seen suggest up to 80% of the traffic on the net
is spam or malware.

>  valid mail addresses plus some aliases I reject more than a thousand
>  delivery attempts every day. Receiving 20-50 spam mails a day is surely
>  an annoyance. But you are still only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

It amazes me that they refuse to accept the obvious.  Linux/Debian/Gnu
provides all the solutions they need, yet they continue to rely on
Lookout! and Gmail, instead of slapping in procmail/mailfilter and
bogofilter/SA.  Huh.  I've no sympathy, sorry.  I'm not seeing a crap
flood from where I'm sitting.


-- 
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html  Linux Counter #80292
- -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me.


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Wayne Topa]

Chris Howie([EMAIL PROTECTED]) is reported to have said:
> On Jan 8, 2008 2:32 PM, David Brodbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Maybe it's time to revisit the idea of allowing only members to post?
> >
> 
> Or people could stop talking about it and get back to their lives, since it
> was fixed some hours ago.
> 

Your right Chris.  This seems to come up at least once a year.  People
complaining about too much spam on the list and what the 'list admins'
should do about it.  It very sad.

Because I am on dialup, I got real tired of the spam I was getting on
all of my mail accounts.  I searched for a cure and, at the time,
found it in the debian mailfilter package.  It cut the spam getting
through SA by 90% at first, and got better as I 'taught' it to get
smarter.  Mailfilter, for those that don't know, deletes the spam at
the ISP, so I don't have to download it.

A new mailfilter type program came out 2-3 years ago.  It improves on
the mailfilter (headers only) method by including a mail body check.
The program is called murx  and since 
installing it and improving my filter rules I have not seen the
increase in spam that those of you that are complaining are seeing.

In fact, my logs show more messages compiling about spam, then spam
messages.  About a 5-6 to 1 ratio.

This is Linux.  Why should people expect someone else to filter spam
for us when we can do it ourselves.  I don't use the spam filters
offered by my (windbloz based) ISP. I use Linux tools to do it.

BTW the same spam that 'was' getting through my filters on D-U were on
most of my other debian lists as well.  The spammers are getting
clever, they go to the most popular mailing lists, first.

I can't understand why anyone would give up the D-U list, with all of
its great information, just because of a bit of spam.  Take some time
to improve your knowledge of the tools offered by this fantastic OS,
and get on with enjoying it.  Remember, the tools are on the OS and
the help you need is right here on D-U.

Happy New Year Gals and Guys!

Wayne

-- 
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The parts of a computer system that can be kicked.
___


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Chris Howie]

On Jan 8, 2008 2:32 PM, David Brodbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Maybe it's time to revisit the idea of allowing only members to post?
>

Or people could stop talking about it and get back to their lives, since it
was fixed some hours ago.

-- 
Chris Howie
http://www.chrishowie.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Crazycomputers

Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[David Brodbeck]

On Jan 8, 2008, at 6:23 AM, John Hasler wrote:
This is true, but there has been a surge in spam on this list  
recently.  It
is quite clear that all the spam is not getting through, but I'm  
seeing

more here than on other lists. and more than usual.


Yup.  I'd say fully half my spam today came from debian-user.  I'm  
starting to think about unsubscribing; it just is starting to take too  
much work to sort out the wheat from the chaff, and my spam filter  
doesn't seem to work very well on list mail.


Maybe it's time to revisit the idea of allowing only members to post?


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Raquel]

On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 08:23:30 -0600
John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jochen Schulz writes:
> > The amount of spam that has passed the listserver's filter
> > mechanisms in the last few days might be large, but it is still
> > only a tiny fraction of what's actually coming in at
> > lists.debian.org.
> 
> This is true, but there has been a surge in spam on this list
> recently.  It is quite clear that all the spam is not getting
> through, but I'm seeing more here than on other lists. and more
> than usual. -- 
> John Hasler

I think that this is what bothers me.  I'm on at least a dozen lists
other than debian-user and debian-isp.  However, the 2 Debian lists
are the ONLY ones from which come SPAM and viruses.

-- 
Raquel

We are furious that the religious right has made Jesus into a
Republican. That's idolatry. To recreate Jesus in your own image
rather than allowing yourself to be created in Jesus' image is what's
wrong with politics. --Rev. Tony Campolo


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Hans Vogelsberger]

Listas Locatel schrieb:

I think it's better talk about this problem with lists responsable but I 
think that's better don't talk about it here.


Thats wrong. Lists responsibles only pay attention if the matter is 
discussed in the list, too.


Yours
Hans Vogelsberger


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[John Hasler]

Hans Vogelsberger writes:
> [...] Well, in the meantime it seems that every spam is let through 
> by the debian-user filters.

If that were true you'd be seeing more than 99% spam (I'm not kidding or
exaggerating. It's that bad).


Jochen Schulz writes:
> The amount of spam that has passed the listserver's filter mechanisms in
> the last few days might be large, but it is still only a tiny fraction of
> what's actually coming in at lists.debian.org.

This is true, but there has been a surge in spam on this list recently.  It
is quite clear that all the spam is not getting through, but I'm seeing
more here than on other lists. and more than usual.
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Jochen Schulz]

Hans Vogelsberger:
> 
> [...] Well, in the meantime it seems that every spam is let through 
> by the debian-user filters.

No: .

The amount of spam that has passed the listserver's filter mechanisms in
the last few days might be large, but it is still only a tiny fraction
of what's actually coming in at lists.debian.org.

Sometimes I have the impression that the people who complain the most
about spam from Debian lists are the ones who don't even know how *bad*
the spam problem actually is. Even on my own mail server with only four
valid mail addresses plus some aliases I reject more than a thousand
delivery attempts every day. Receiving 20-50 spam mails a day is surely
an annoyance. But you are still only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

J.
-- 
Driving behind lorries carrying hazardous chemicals makes me wish for a
simpler life.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
 


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Listas Locatel]

Hans Vogelsberger escribió:
Since some days debian-user list is full of spam. Most of it is 
already marked SPAM in subject by my provider's filter and therefore 
gets deleted by my personal filter (and shortly noted in my 
mailfilter.log). So do all the protesting mails with 'spam' in their 
subject line, which seem to be quite a lot. Others are found in the 
junk folder of Icedove. But there are still too many coming through 
(even Nigeria connection and Lottery mails!)


On Jan 2 I protested against spam with the subject 'Pls check the new 
site'. After that, some big-mouth thought himself entitled to instruct 
me about what anyhow everybody knows: that I only receive what the 
spamfilters let through. Well, in the meantime it seems that every 
spam is let through by the debian-user filters.


H. Vogelsberger
This problem seems a general problem. debian-user-spanish is full of 
spam too and other lists different of Debian are receiving too much spam 
in these days. I can't know what is the real problem but I am 
collecting  emails and learning my spam filter.


I think it's better talk about this problem with lists responsable but I 
think that's better don't talk about it here.


Best regards!


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Re: What is going on in debian-user?

[Shane D]

You seem to think that it is just the debian-user list that is being
spammed. I personally am recieving a great deal of spam, as well, and
it is getting passed my filters as well. They have figured out a new
way of doing it, and this will die down some time soon.

Just deal with it for now.

On 1/8/08, Hans Vogelsberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Since some days debian-user list is full of spam. Most of it is already
> marked SPAM in subject by my provider's filter and therefore gets
> deleted by my personal filter (and shortly noted in my mailfilter.log).
> So do all the protesting mails with 'spam' in their subject line, which
> seem to be quite a lot. Others are found in the junk folder of Icedove.
> But there are still too many coming through (even Nigeria connection and
> Lottery mails!)
>
> On Jan 2 I protested against spam with the subject 'Pls check the new
> site'. After that, some big-mouth thought himself entitled to instruct
> me about what anyhow everybody knows: that I only receive what the
> spamfilters let through. Well, in the meantime it seems that every spam
> is let through by the debian-user filters.
>
> H. Vogelsberger
>
> --
> To ?!?avoid spam?!? this address accepts only mails 'To:' subscribed lists.
> Zur ?!?Vermeidung von Spam?!? akzeptiert diese Adresse nur Mails 'An:'
> abonnierte Listen.
> Hans Vogelsberger, A-6130
>
>
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> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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-- 
-Shane
Blog: http://blind-geek.com/blog/
CoOwner: http://sjtechzone.com
AIM: inhaddict
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What is going on in debian-user?

[Hans Vogelsberger]

Since some days debian-user list is full of spam. Most of it is already 
marked SPAM in subject by my provider's filter and therefore gets 
deleted by my personal filter (and shortly noted in my mailfilter.log). 
So do all the protesting mails with 'spam' in their subject line, which 
seem to be quite a lot. Others are found in the junk folder of Icedove. 
But there are still too many coming through (even Nigeria connection and 
Lottery mails!)


On Jan 2 I protested against spam with the subject 'Pls check the new 
site'. After that, some big-mouth thought himself entitled to instruct 
me about what anyhow everybody knows: that I only receive what the 
spamfilters let through. Well, in the meantime it seems that every spam 
is let through by the debian-user filters.


H. Vogelsberger

--
To ?!?avoid spam?!? this address accepts only mails 'To:' subscribed lists.
Zur ?!?Vermeidung von Spam?!? akzeptiert diese Adresse nur Mails 'An:' 
abonnierte Listen.
Hans Vogelsberger, A-6130


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