Re: Which Virtual Manager?
On 28 Oct 2023 06:33 -0400, from wande...@fastmail.fm (The Wanderer): > virt-manager Do keep in mind that virt-manager is just _one_ possible front-end for KVM (although perhaps the most common GUI one). AQEMU has already been mentioned in this thread. Technically virsh and friends is another front-end, although a command-line one and quite technical. I'm sure there are other freely available alternatives as well. -- Michael Kjörling https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
Re: Which Virtual Manager? Was: EASY way to install packages from trixie/sid to stable?
On 2023-10-28 at 00:25, Max Nikulin wrote: > On 28/10/2023 02:02, The Wanderer wrote: > >> for the case of hierarchical snapshots > > qemu-img(1) allows to create snapshots of disk images that are stored > in the same file. In addition the "create" command has the "-b > BACKING_FILE" option Does virt-manager expose this feature via a convenient create-a-new-snapshot GUI, showing the tree of which snapshots descend from what? I believe I was under the impression that, for the case of qemu, no such thing was available. (I note, again, that it's been a long time since I tried this; I have spent the past couple of years, at least, attempting with various degrees of desperation to avoid more stress than I can handle, and after my last try with virt-manager hit that wall this conversation is the first time I've been able to handle any kind of try-it-again.) >> If the option BACKING_FILE is specified, then the image will record >> only the differences from BACKING_FILE. > > Is it something close to "hierarchical snapshots"? If one snapshot can descend from another, and you can delete any snapshot (again, from that GUI) and have any references to it in other snapshots automagically cleaned up to point to any relevant new parent (such that the data seen through those other snapshots is still the same as before the deletion), then probably. It sounds like it might be worth my giving this another try, with qemu as a backend, and seeing if I get any better results. Not sure exactly when I may do that - I'm dealing with major stress from another source right now, and would probably have difficulty handling it if the attempt failed - but the idea is at least on my radar. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Which Virtual Manager? Was: EASY way to install packages from trixie/sid to stable?
On 28/10/2023 02:02, The Wanderer wrote: for the case of hierarchical snapshots qemu-img(1) allows to create snapshots of disk images that are stored in the same file. In addition the "create" command has the "-b BACKING_FILE" option If the option BACKING_FILE is specified, then the image will record only the differences from BACKING_FILE. Is it something close to "hierarchical snapshots"?
Re: Which Virtual Manager? Was: EASY way to install packages from trixie/sid to stable?
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 14:46:52 + Minecraftchest1 wrote: > With Virt-Manager, you should have the option to choose an existing > disk image. It can also create a disk image for you. On which you will have to make partitions and file systems. -- Does anybody read signatures any more? https://charlescurley.com https://charlescurley.com/blog/
Re: Which Virtual Manager? Was: EASY way to install packages from trixie/sid to stable?
On 2023-10-27 at 10:46, Minecraftchest1 wrote: > With Virt-Manager, you should have the option to choose an existing > disk image. That only helps if you've already created a disk image, which will not be the case when creating a new VM from scratch. Having to resort to the command line (or to other tools) to create the initial disk image - even if, potentially, just creating an empty file (or a file of specified size, filled with zeroes) would work - is not as friendly or as straightforward a workflow as being able to do it from the GUI. > In that dialog, you can create an image in any of the pools (you can > also add pools in that dialog), and that will let you change the file > name and disk size. Hold up. Where do "pools" (which I'm guessing is short for "storage pools") come into things? The other virtualization solutions I've seen and worked with (short of full-system-level things, such as I understand VMWare ESXi to be) don't require being aware of or handling storage pools; they work with disk image files (or, for the case of hierarchical snapshots, cascading stacks thereof) directly, and do not require those files to be part of any "storage pool" in any way that the user needs to be aware of. If you're starting with the assumption that "storage pools" will - much less need to - be involved somewhere, you're already not matching the convenience etc. of the workflow I know from those other tools. Just offhand, I would expect that a "storage pools" paradigm would block off some of the convenient things that can be done in that other workflow, such as being able to move or copy a virtual machine by moving or copying the directory that its files (disk images, configuration files, et cetera) are stored in - because you'd also have to fiddle with whatever it is that defines the "storage pool" that those files are part of, and that definition would presumably be outside of the directory that defines the virtual machine. > I am not ay my laptop currently, but I can take and share some > screenshots later today. Regardless of the above, that might be useful. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Which Virtual Manager? Was: EASY way to install packages from trixie/sid to stable?
With Virt-Manager, you should have the option to choose an existing disk image. In that dialog, you can create an image in any of the pools (you can also add pools in that dialog), and that will let you change the file name and disk size. I am not ay my laptop currently, but I can take and share some screenshots later today. On October 27, 2023 9:17:46 AM UTC, The Wanderer wrote: >On 2023-10-26 at 15:28, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > >> Apt-get install virt-manager will pull in all the associated >> qemu/KVM packages you might need. It should be at least as >> straightforward to use as Virtualbox. > >I've seen people state or suggest multiple times that virt-manager >should be, as you say, as straightforward to use as VirtualBox, and that >was what I expected to find when I tried to use it myself - but even >once I got around the issues that arose from my not using systemd et >cetera and could actually use the program, it is not what I actually found. > >(I very much hope that what I am about to describe is wrong, and that >people will explain how/why it's wrong, such that I can get out of the >situation described and into a state where I can actually use >virt-manager in a way that I could find useful. It is not my intention >to spread FUD or falsehoods, even if some of the below may look like it >would fall within those categories.) > > >From what I recall from having used VirtualBox in the past, its workflow >is fairly similar to what I see in using VMWare Workstation in a >(work-related) Windows environment. When you create a new VM, it prompts >you for where the VM's files should be stored, and then for details >about the VM's configuration (disk sizes, hardware devices, et cetera), >and optionally lets you specify what will be done to install the OS that >will run in the VM - and then with that done, the VM is ready, and you >can boot it up or create a snapshot (using a graphical >snapshot-management interface) or make further configuration edits or do >whatever else you will with it. > >With virt-manager, from what I recall (it has been a while since I last >tried), the workflow was quite different. IIRC, I didn't even try using >qemu as a backend, because AFAIK it doesn't support hierarchical VM >snapshots and that's a feature I very much expect to rely on; instead I >think I went with KVM. With that backend, AFAIR I didn't even get >prompted for where the VM's file should be stored; instead, the location >where the system stores files appears to be defined in a system-wide >config file, and to not be modifiable on a per-VM basis (except relative >to that system-wide root). That's a problem, because when I partitioned >this system I expected to be able to store VM files in the same massive >data partition as I allocated for other large data; the default >system-wide location doesn't have the space to do much with. It also >doesn't work when the system may have multiple users who may want to >manage VMs separately from one another (though, fortunately, this is >more an abstract concern rather than one that affects me in practice). > >With VMWare Workstation and what I think I I recall from VirtualBox, >once a VM is created, the resulting files are owned by the user who ran >the program. With what I recall from when I tried virt-manager, even if >I redirected the file storage location to be under the larger data >partition, the files were owned by another user, related to libvirt. >That's undesirable when trying to store VM files per-user in a per-user >location, since the user won't be able to work with them (moving them >around, editing details, etc.) except through programs running with that >other user's access. > >When I accepted that and tried to proceed anyway, for the sake of >experimentation, IIRC, I ran into obstacles trying to set up the >necessary virtual hardware for the VM - in particular, IIRC, a virtual >CD drive pointed at the ISO that would be used to install the OS. (This >part I am less certain about than even the above; it's been rather a >while, and I was stressed enough by the time I hit this point that I may >have blanked out more of the details in self-defense.) At that point, I >gave up, at least in part for the sake of not piling more and more >stress on myself trying to get the ability to do things that would >hopefully enable me to reduce stress in other areas. > >(Writing this mail is already bringing back up all that stress, and I >hope it will not just wind up making things worse.) > > >So... either I somehow have managed to do things *100% completely >wrong*, or the workflow with virt-manager is not even remotely as >straightforward(ly usable) as the one I see with VMWare Workstation and >think I remember seeing with VirtualBox. > >I would *love* to be wrong about that, because there is a *lot* of stuff >that I'd like to do that would be *far* easier if I had discardable VM >snapshots to do it in. However, I also do not have the personal stress >to spare for
Re: Which Virtual Manager? Was: EASY way to install packages from trixie/sid to stable?
On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 05:17:46AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: > On 2023-10-26 at 15:28, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > > > Apt-get install virt-manager will pull in all the associated > > qemu/KVM packages you might need. It should be at least as > > straightforward to use as Virtualbox. > > I've seen people state or suggest multiple times that virt-manager > should be, as you say, as straightforward to use as VirtualBox, and that > was what I expected to find when I tried to use it myself - but even > once I got around the issues that arose from my not using systemd et > cetera and could actually use the program, it is not what I actually found. > > (I very much hope that what I am about to describe is wrong, and that > people will explain how/why it's wrong, such that I can get out of the > situation described and into a state where I can actually use > virt-manager in a way that I could find useful. It is not my intention > to spread FUD or falsehoods, even if some of the below may look like it > would fall within those categories.) > People's experience varies: I've used Virtualbox in the past, Hyper-V under Windows and VMWare Workstation - Virt-manager provides as easy a front end to KVM for me. It does help if you select the "Customise configuration" option before beginning install at step 5 of 5 > > With virt-manager, from what I recall (it has been a while since I last > tried), the workflow was quite different. IIRC, I didn't even try using > qemu as a backend, because AFAIK it doesn't support hierarchical VM > snapshots and that's a feature I very much expect to rely on; instead I > think I went with KVM. With that backend, AFAIR I didn't even get > prompted for where the VM's file should be stored; instead, the location > where the system stores files appears to be defined in a system-wide > config file, and to not be modifiable on a per-VM basis (except relative > to that system-wide root). That's a problem, because when I partitioned > this system I expected to be able to store VM files in the same massive > data partition as I allocated for other large data; the default > system-wide location doesn't have the space to do much with. It also > doesn't work when the system may have multiple users who may want to > manage VMs separately from one another (though, fortunately, this is > more an abstract concern rather than one that affects me in practice). > > With VMWare Workstation and what I think I I recall from VirtualBox, > once a VM is created, the resulting files are owned by the user who ran > the program. With what I recall from when I tried virt-manager, even if > I redirected the file storage location to be under the larger data > partition, the files were owned by another user, related to libvirt. > That's undesirable when trying to store VM files per-user in a per-user > location, since the user won't be able to work with them (moving them > around, editing details, etc.) except through programs running with that > other user's access. > > When I accepted that and tried to proceed anyway, for the sake of > experimentation, IIRC, I ran into obstacles trying to set up the > necessary virtual hardware for the VM - in particular, IIRC, a virtual > CD drive pointed at the ISO that would be used to install the OS. (This > part I am less certain about than even the above; it's been rather a > while, and I was stressed enough by the time I hit this point that I may > have blanked out more of the details in self-defense.) At that point, I > gave up, at least in part for the sake of not piling more and more > stress on myself trying to get the ability to do things that would > hopefully enable me to reduce stress in other areas. > See the "configure before install" which opens this up more - you can also see this by viewing/modifying settings - but you normally have to make sure that the VM is shut down. > (Writing this mail is already bringing back up all that stress, and I > hope it will not just wind up making things worse.) > > > So... either I somehow have managed to do things *100% completely > wrong*, or the workflow with virt-manager is not even remotely as > straightforward(ly usable) as the one I see with VMWare Workstation and > think I remember seeing with VirtualBox. > > I would *love* to be wrong about that, because there is a *lot* of stuff > that I'd like to do that would be *far* easier if I had discardable VM > snapshots to do it in. However, I also do not have the personal stress > to spare for experimenting with this blindly and bashing my head against > walls getting nowhere in those experiments. > > If there *is* a way to get virt-manager to support a VMWare( and, I > think, VirtualBox)-like workflow - with support for hierarchical nested > snapshots, and graphical management thereof, among other things - and > have things more-or-less Just Work, I would *love* to learn about it. > All the VM solutions essentially have a text backend and something
Re: Which Virtual Manager? Was: EASY way to install packages from trixie/sid to stable?
On 2023-10-26 at 15:28, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > Apt-get install virt-manager will pull in all the associated > qemu/KVM packages you might need. It should be at least as > straightforward to use as Virtualbox. I've seen people state or suggest multiple times that virt-manager should be, as you say, as straightforward to use as VirtualBox, and that was what I expected to find when I tried to use it myself - but even once I got around the issues that arose from my not using systemd et cetera and could actually use the program, it is not what I actually found. (I very much hope that what I am about to describe is wrong, and that people will explain how/why it's wrong, such that I can get out of the situation described and into a state where I can actually use virt-manager in a way that I could find useful. It is not my intention to spread FUD or falsehoods, even if some of the below may look like it would fall within those categories.) From what I recall from having used VirtualBox in the past, its workflow is fairly similar to what I see in using VMWare Workstation in a (work-related) Windows environment. When you create a new VM, it prompts you for where the VM's files should be stored, and then for details about the VM's configuration (disk sizes, hardware devices, et cetera), and optionally lets you specify what will be done to install the OS that will run in the VM - and then with that done, the VM is ready, and you can boot it up or create a snapshot (using a graphical snapshot-management interface) or make further configuration edits or do whatever else you will with it. With virt-manager, from what I recall (it has been a while since I last tried), the workflow was quite different. IIRC, I didn't even try using qemu as a backend, because AFAIK it doesn't support hierarchical VM snapshots and that's a feature I very much expect to rely on; instead I think I went with KVM. With that backend, AFAIR I didn't even get prompted for where the VM's file should be stored; instead, the location where the system stores files appears to be defined in a system-wide config file, and to not be modifiable on a per-VM basis (except relative to that system-wide root). That's a problem, because when I partitioned this system I expected to be able to store VM files in the same massive data partition as I allocated for other large data; the default system-wide location doesn't have the space to do much with. It also doesn't work when the system may have multiple users who may want to manage VMs separately from one another (though, fortunately, this is more an abstract concern rather than one that affects me in practice). With VMWare Workstation and what I think I I recall from VirtualBox, once a VM is created, the resulting files are owned by the user who ran the program. With what I recall from when I tried virt-manager, even if I redirected the file storage location to be under the larger data partition, the files were owned by another user, related to libvirt. That's undesirable when trying to store VM files per-user in a per-user location, since the user won't be able to work with them (moving them around, editing details, etc.) except through programs running with that other user's access. When I accepted that and tried to proceed anyway, for the sake of experimentation, IIRC, I ran into obstacles trying to set up the necessary virtual hardware for the VM - in particular, IIRC, a virtual CD drive pointed at the ISO that would be used to install the OS. (This part I am less certain about than even the above; it's been rather a while, and I was stressed enough by the time I hit this point that I may have blanked out more of the details in self-defense.) At that point, I gave up, at least in part for the sake of not piling more and more stress on myself trying to get the ability to do things that would hopefully enable me to reduce stress in other areas. (Writing this mail is already bringing back up all that stress, and I hope it will not just wind up making things worse.) So... either I somehow have managed to do things *100% completely wrong*, or the workflow with virt-manager is not even remotely as straightforward(ly usable) as the one I see with VMWare Workstation and think I remember seeing with VirtualBox. I would *love* to be wrong about that, because there is a *lot* of stuff that I'd like to do that would be *far* easier if I had discardable VM snapshots to do it in. However, I also do not have the personal stress to spare for experimenting with this blindly and bashing my head against walls getting nowhere in those experiments. If there *is* a way to get virt-manager to support a VMWare( and, I think, VirtualBox)-like workflow - with support for hierarchical nested snapshots, and graphical management thereof, among other things - and have things more-or-less Just Work, I would *love* to learn about it. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
Re: Which Virtual Manager? Was: EASY way to install packages from trixie/sid to stable?
On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 03:18:34PM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote: > On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 1:24 PM Hans wrote: > > > > Am Donnerstag, 26. Oktober 2023, 19:03:15 CEST schrieb Michael Kjörling: > > This is interesting information! Looks like KVM and Virt-Manager are better > > and faster than Virtualbox. > > libvirt is also available on Fedora, while Virtual Box is not. On > Fedora, you have to build Virtual Box from sources, and configure DKMS > to rebuild it for each kernel upgrade. > > So if you want a virtualization platform that just works just about > everywhere, then choose libvirt/QEMU/KVM. > > Jeff > Apt-get install virt-manager will pull in all the associated qemu/KVM packages you might need. It should be at least as straightforward to use as Virtualbox. I use this for testing when we do the testing for every Debian point release - it's straightforward. Andy
Re: Which Virtual Manager?
Yes, a little bit "googleing" showed me that way. However, it looks, that none of the other solutions can import OVA via the graphical interface. However, for me the CLI will be ok, but I am lazy and would like to do it graphical, if possible. But looks like none of the other solutions are capable of this. It is a pity, but ok. Thanks for the advice anyway Best regards Hans > I think you can use `qemu-img convert -f vdi -O qcow2` to convert from > a VDI disk image to a QCOW2 or raw disk image, which QEMU/KVM in turn > can use. (qemu-img convert can also convert to and from many other > formats; see the output of qemu-img --help.) Compared to raw disk > images, QCOW2 adds a number of nice features, not least of which disk > snapshots. > > In Debian, qemu-img is packaged in qemu-utils (in Bookworm, at least). > > Apparently, a OVA is just a tarball of a hard disk image and a XML > file describing the VM. It shouldn't be too difficult to convert the > disk image and then create a similar KVM VM using the information in > the XML file. It looks like there's a tool named virt-v2v which can do > the conversion, although I have never had a need to try it.
Re: Which Virtual Manager?
On 26 Oct 2023 17:23 +0200, from hans.ullr...@loop.de (Hans): > I installed aqemu (a GUI for qemu), virt-manger (a little bit complex GUI) > and > virtualbox (from Oracle, but without guest-additions annd ext-pack). You generally shouldn't install multiple hypervisors on the same system. I have seen fairly sternly worded warnings against having VirtualBox and KVM/QEMU installed simultaneously on the same host. (They probably can _coexist_, but trying to _run_ both at the same time may well cause issues.) There should be no problems with using different front-ends for the same hypervisor, however; I regularly use both virt-manager and the command-line utilities (including virt-install and virsh) depending on what I need. > Virtualbox is easy to use, but I like AQEMU, too (it is using KVM). > > Are the other solutions capable, to import and export OVA or VDI? I think you can use `qemu-img convert -f vdi -O qcow2` to convert from a VDI disk image to a QCOW2 or raw disk image, which QEMU/KVM in turn can use. (qemu-img convert can also convert to and from many other formats; see the output of qemu-img --help.) Compared to raw disk images, QCOW2 adds a number of nice features, not least of which disk snapshots. In Debian, qemu-img is packaged in qemu-utils (in Bookworm, at least). Apparently, a OVA is just a tarball of a hard disk image and a XML file describing the VM. It shouldn't be too difficult to convert the disk image and then create a similar KVM VM using the information in the XML file. It looks like there's a tool named virt-v2v which can do the conversion, although I have never had a need to try it. -- Michael Kjörling https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
Which Virtual Manager? Was: EASY way to install packages from trixie/sid to stable?
Am Donnerstag, 26. Oktober 2023, 19:03:15 CEST schrieb Michael Kjörling: This is interesting information! Looks like KVM and Virt-Manager are better and faster than Virtualbox. Obviously it seems (regarding to other people), these solutions are more stable, too. That looks great, as I am not so happy of beeing dependent on Oracle. However, often I get some Images as OVA files, but I still could not get, how to import OVA files to Virt-Manager or KVM. A graphical way is preferred, but if not possible, also the CLI way will be acceptable I installed aqemu (a GUI for qemu), virt-manger (a little bit complex GUI) and virtualbox (from Oracle, but without guest-additions annd ext-pack). Virtualbox is easy to use, but I like AQEMU, too (it is using KVM). Are the other solutions capable, to import and export OVA or VDI? Best Hans > On 26 Oct 2023 21:37 +0500, from avbe...@gmail.com (Alexander V. Makartsev): > > I don't use virtualbox (KVM does everything and more for me) so I can't > > vouch for the quality of packages from Oracle. > > I switched from VirtualBox to KVM at one point; as I recall a Debian > kernel upgrade broke VirtualBox and still after two weeks or so Oracle > hadn't updated their for-Debian repository with a version that > incorporated a fix. (This was the respective "stable" versions at the > time, and while I don't recall the details, the breakage made > VirtualBox useless for my use case.) I had planned to do such a > migration anyway; the breakage just somewhat forced the issue. > > KVM/QEMU/virt-manager and friends perhaps aren't as streamlined for > the typical end user who just wants to quickly spin up a VM with > minimal hassle, but they are also very much more powerful if you're > willing to do a little reading. (For example, I had to do a fair bit > of digging to figure out how to get guest networking to work reliably > without turning off the host firewall.[1]) This is in line with their > respective intended usage: VirtualBox is at best a power user tool, > whereas KVM is intended for large server deployments but _can_ be used > on workstation virtualization hosts as well. > > [1] > https://michael.kjorling.se/blog/2022/linux-kvm-host-nftables-guest-network > ing/
