Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y
On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, P.A.M. van Dam wrote: > > This is the real issue. If you could select the 'high level' groups > > and only deal with the components if you want the option it would > > be fine. But if I select a group I want it to mean 'install what > > it takes to make this work', not 'tell me about some other things > > I need to do first in some unknown order'. > > It would be really nice to have some highlever package order, like > some commercial UNIX vendors have. For example one might have the choice > to install everything as it suits himself or choose some highlevel packages > like a KDE environment using Dutch locales or a OpenLook environent or just > good old non-graphic install. It makes it much easier for newbies. We need > some hierarchy in the package structures. > > > > > Les Mikesell > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Best regards, > Pascal I'm sorry to be dogmatic, but I'm going to say one more time that I like things the way they are. If something depends on seperately maintained library xyz it is not good but *GREAT* to know about it from the start. The dependency structure sends this message to users load and clear, in a way that a lumped package scheme would not even if a full description of all dependencies were given when such a package was installed. I really had no clue about the high level of software interdependence when I started with slackware, and it hurt me continually. I think a little pain with dselect in the beginning would have saved me a lot of grief later. Lets give a more understandable dselect a chance. It could be made infinitely more comprehensible. Am I right in thinking that when one package you include during a 'dependence session' requires another package, you get a new sort of recursive dependence session? I feel that I shouldn't really have to be confused about this sort of thing. __ I like six eggs when starting on a journey. Fried - not poached. And mind you don't break 'em. I won't eat a broken egg. -- Thorin Oakenshield
Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y
I'm new to Debian, so please tell me if newbie opinions are not welcome. I think that after spending possibly half an hour or an hour selecting packages it would be very nice to have the chance to _save_ the desired state (installed/not installed/...?) of each package to a file, which we could put to floppy and _read_ in case later we decide to restart from scratch. There should be put enough info (package name and version and ...?) for the install procedure to be able to warn in case the file is used with a different suite of packages, e.g. a wider suite with new entries for which we didn't make any decision (but what if just packages of NEW version with different dependencies have come? to simplify we could decide this is misuse and link the file to the suite of packages for which it was saved [the Debian release number?]). Nicola Bernardelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- You can use <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for messages not coming from any kind of robot, such as mailing lists. From that address some autoresponse messages may return when I'm not at home. --- On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Douglas L Stewart wrote: > On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, P.A.M. van Dam wrote: > > > It would be really nice to have some highlever package order, like > > some commercial UNIX vendors have. For example one might have the choice > > to install everything as it suits himself or choose some highlevel packages > > like a KDE environment using Dutch locales or a OpenLook environent or just > > good old non-graphic install. It makes it much easier for newbies. We need > > some hierarchy in the package structures. > > I very much agree with this. Redhat has something like this. While I > don't agree with their package choices for the various setups, the concept > is sound. > > You would think this would be configured as the interface to dselect is > redesigned. (which I'm very glad is happening!) > > -douglas
Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y
On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, P.A.M. van Dam wrote: > It would be really nice to have some highlever package order, like > some commercial UNIX vendors have. For example one might have the choice > to install everything as it suits himself or choose some highlevel packages > like a KDE environment using Dutch locales or a OpenLook environent or just > good old non-graphic install. It makes it much easier for newbies. We need > some hierarchy in the package structures. I very much agree with this. Redhat has something like this. While I don't agree with their package choices for the various setups, the concept is sound. You would think this would be configured as the interface to dselect is redesigned. (which I'm very glad is happening!) -douglas
Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y
> This is the real issue. If you could select the 'high level' groups > and only deal with the components if you want the option it would > be fine. But if I select a group I want it to mean 'install what > it takes to make this work', not 'tell me about some other things > I need to do first in some unknown order'. It would be really nice to have some highlever package order, like some commercial UNIX vendors have. For example one might have the choice to install everything as it suits himself or choose some highlevel packages like a KDE environment using Dutch locales or a OpenLook environent or just good old non-graphic install. It makes it much easier for newbies. We need some hierarchy in the package structures. > > Les Mikesell > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Best regards, Pascal
Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y
> > Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install. They > > prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together > > and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items. > > It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution > > but most people have better things to do. These days you probably > > can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete > > installation. > > I don't know. I was quite thrilled when I found that debian was giving me > the option to know more or less exactly what was going on my system. You have to compare against RedHat, not slackware. They have a checkbox for 'select individual components'. So you get your choice. > I was of course less thrilled by the problems > mentioned above, especially the confusing way the dependencies are > presented. This is the real issue. If you could select the 'high level' groups and only deal with the components if you want the option it would be fine. But if I select a group I want it to mean 'install what it takes to make this work', not 'tell me about some other things I need to do first in some unknown order'. > Nevertheless I think individual package selectin on install is > something we should keep, at least as a perfectly accesable option. I > would like to see the energy go into that rather than a more general > packaging scheme. I think more new users like it than you think. Watch someone else install both Debian and RedHat, then think about that again. New users want something that works the first time. On the other hand, dselect might be fine once you get past the initial install. Perhaps all it really needs is a special install mode where it knows that you have to take certain things in a certain order. Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y
On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Britton wrote: > I used to run slackware... Me too, and also tried RedHat recently, but not for a long time. > I think individual package selectin on install is something we should > keep, at least as a perfectly accesable option. I would like to see the > energy go into that rather than a more general packaging scheme. I think > more new users like it than you think. That's why I'm here, quite new to Debian. Ok, there are some problems with dselect (going to be replaced anyway I see), but the chance of knowing about dependencies and not only installing but also removing or upgrading *each* package is of great importance to me. It is just a very good thing which needs a great design effort (and possibly some debugging), as for instance any C++ "ambitious" class hierarchy. The taste it gives to me is of a great quality Linux distribution. Nicola Bernardelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- You can use <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for messages not coming from any kind of robot, such as mailing lists. From that address some autoresponse messages may return when I'm not at home. ---
Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y
> > Yes. Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install. The answer at > > this > > point is to run configure over and over. Each time it will install > > something > > that is needed to settle the conflicts. The problem is that the selected > > files aren't in dependant order. Hopefully the new project will address > > this > > problem. > > Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install. They > prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together > and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items. > It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution > but most people have better things to do. These days you probably > can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete > installation. I don't know. I was quite thrilled when I found that debian was giving me the option to know more or less exactly what was going on my system. I used to run slackware and when I would do a find I would get 16000 + files. I had no clue what most of the stuff on my system did. Granted, I ended up in more or less the same situation since I can't resist those sexy little program descriptions Debian gives you, but it was still very fun and informative. I was of course less thrilled by the problems mentioned above, especially the confusing way the dependencies are presented. I still am not exactly clear in my mind how that all worked and why I had to overide some simple stuff to make other common things work. Nevertheless I think individual package selectin on install is something we should keep, at least as a perfectly accesable option. I would like to see the energy go into that rather than a more general packaging scheme. I think more new users like it than you think.
Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y
On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Rick wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > I think it was one of the Debian gurus that just sent an email stating that > it was only the ftp install that had this bug. He'll most likely send you an > email on this but in case he doesn't get to it for a while I'll say that he > did say it worked fine in the CD install. Okay lets be clear here I know for certain: 1) FTP does NOT dependacny correctly 2) The disk install has code designed to correct this 3) Some poster in some far off land said it worked right 4) I buy it, cause it looks sound. 5) If -ANYONE- has had a dependancy problem installing from 1.2 or 1.3 off a cdrom then please tell me an I will try to have an alternet solution. 6) I filed a bug against dpkg-ftp to include the code in 2). My copy of 1.2 on both my machines has this fix for cdrom installations, so I think it should be in most 1.2 copies? So there we have it. I hope this steams off any strange rumors! Jason
Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- I think it was one of the Debian gurus that just sent an email stating that it was only the ftp install that had this bug. He'll most likely send you an email on this but in case he doesn't get to it for a while I'll say that he did say it worked fine in the CD install. On 12-Apr-97 Geoff R Deasey wrote: >The comments about having to run configure over and over, does this apply >to the cdrom as well ? I have a T! at work, so if there is another way >to install that would be better let me know. > >--Jeff > >On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Rick wrote: > >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- >> >> Sorry. I should have been specific. I was talking about the ftp install and >> assumed he was too. >> >> On 12-Apr-97 Jason Gunthorpe wrote: >> >On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Leslie Mikesell wrote: >> > >> >> > Yes. Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install. The answer at >> this >> >> > point is to run configure over and over. Each time it will install >> something >> >> > that is needed to settle the conflicts. The problem is that the selected >> >> > files aren't in dependant order. Hopefully the new project will address >> this >> >> > problem. >> >> >> >> Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install. They >> >> prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together >> >> and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items. >> >> It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution >> >> but most people have better things to do. These days you probably >> >> can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete >> >> installation. >> > >> >Okay, apparently Debian also has no problem doing this, BUT if you do an >> >ftp install it will fail because of a bug in dpkg-ftp, Bug#8660 actually. >> > >> >If you use a cdrom or some other mounted media it will be able to >> >correctly identify the package order and install accordingly. If not then >> >please tell me now! >> > >> >Thanks, >> >Jason >> > >> Have a good one. >> >> - -- >> Rick Jones E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> Date: 12-Apr-97 Time: 01:13:0 5 >> - -- >> >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- >> Version: 2.6.2 >> >> iQCVAwUBM08Z4Qi+Ph+i3TgpAQFopQP/cVbFLV0S2zp4g1ic1hBJo2eQ21sRMf2T >> JpTXXVofD5jIroKw2yBkYoascsArV4Uz97pmb4uLuJBKOGiL42B3+J1ToYjWb60Y >> 5eBT4WKMBoq0JpC6YEQ4hKCzCXooJTtGANOQs+4hpF9vEkA/QAypmaG3248RD8Y/ >> 0H2cAMbwTQ8= >> =sYlO >> -END PGP SIGNATURE- >> > Have a good one. - -- Rick Jones E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 12-Apr-97 Time: 01:35:55 - -- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBM08fRgi+Ph+i3TgpAQE+HgP/ZqidV5CPtnd1jXhejRJdau31MrAarej1 +GUs4hUH+TV4gJzeNnSafARpRfrZ+catBBxWmwD3AHmYyEu+oRDGV1sJP1fsQthN 5tizCfnMcr87fifddFeMZi2vqdXTfUuM4cA9WlaKul3Dr4vUKyE75G0aILKeZdT0 D0BPGhZ/Sjs= =vAok -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y
The comments about having to run configure over and over, does this apply to the cdrom as well ? I have a T! at work, so if there is another way to install that would be better let me know. --Jeff On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Rick wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Sorry. I should have been specific. I was talking about the ftp install and > assumed he was too. > > On 12-Apr-97 Jason Gunthorpe wrote: > >On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Leslie Mikesell wrote: > > > >> > Yes. Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install. The answer at > this > >> > point is to run configure over and over. Each time it will install > something > >> > that is needed to settle the conflicts. The problem is that the selected > >> > files aren't in dependant order. Hopefully the new project will address > this > >> > problem. > >> > >> Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install. They > >> prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together > >> and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items. > >> It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution > >> but most people have better things to do. These days you probably > >> can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete > >> installation. > > > >Okay, apparently Debian also has no problem doing this, BUT if you do an > >ftp install it will fail because of a bug in dpkg-ftp, Bug#8660 actually. > > > >If you use a cdrom or some other mounted media it will be able to > >correctly identify the package order and install accordingly. If not then > >please tell me now! > > > >Thanks, > >Jason > > > Have a good one. > > - -- > Rick Jones E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: 12-Apr-97 > Time: 01:13:05 > - -- > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: 2.6.2 > > iQCVAwUBM08Z4Qi+Ph+i3TgpAQFopQP/cVbFLV0S2zp4g1ic1hBJo2eQ21sRMf2T > JpTXXVofD5jIroKw2yBkYoascsArV4Uz97pmb4uLuJBKOGiL42B3+J1ToYjWb60Y > 5eBT4WKMBoq0JpC6YEQ4hKCzCXooJTtGANOQs+4hpF9vEkA/QAypmaG3248RD8Y/ > 0H2cAMbwTQ8= > =sYlO > -END PGP SIGNATURE- >
Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Sorry. I should have been specific. I was talking about the ftp install and assumed he was too. On 12-Apr-97 Jason Gunthorpe wrote: >On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Leslie Mikesell wrote: > >> > Yes. Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install. The answer at this >> > point is to run configure over and over. Each time it will install something >> > that is needed to settle the conflicts. The problem is that the selected >> > files aren't in dependant order. Hopefully the new project will address this >> > problem. >> >> Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install. They >> prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together >> and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items. >> It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution >> but most people have better things to do. These days you probably >> can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete >> installation. > >Okay, apparently Debian also has no problem doing this, BUT if you do an >ftp install it will fail because of a bug in dpkg-ftp, Bug#8660 actually. > >If you use a cdrom or some other mounted media it will be able to >correctly identify the package order and install accordingly. If not then >please tell me now! > >Thanks, >Jason > Have a good one. - -- Rick Jones E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 12-Apr-97 Time: 01:13:05 - -- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBM08Z4Qi+Ph+i3TgpAQFopQP/cVbFLV0S2zp4g1ic1hBJo2eQ21sRMf2T JpTXXVofD5jIroKw2yBkYoascsArV4Uz97pmb4uLuJBKOGiL42B3+J1ToYjWb60Y 5eBT4WKMBoq0JpC6YEQ4hKCzCXooJTtGANOQs+4hpF9vEkA/QAypmaG3248RD8Y/ 0H2cAMbwTQ8= =sYlO -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- You have to take the good with the bad. It would be nice to have a perfect linux distribution but it will never happen. I think all in all Debian is doing a super job. They're on top of things for the most part. If it's broke they'll fix it PDQ. Once they know about it. I'm bad about informing about bugs. If I can fix it myself I usually never report it. I guess I should. You can install groups in dselect also. Just select the line that describes the group and mark it for install or hold. Generally the normal install is already marked for install. On 12-Apr-97 Leslie Mikesell wrote: >> Yes. Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install. The answer at this >> point is to run configure over and over. Each time it will install something >> that is needed to settle the conflicts. The problem is that the selected >> files aren't in dependant order. Hopefully the new project will address this >> problem. > >Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install. They >prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together >and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items. >It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution >but most people have better things to do. These days you probably >can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete >installation. > >Les Mikesell > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have a good one. - -- Rick Jones E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 12-Apr-97 Time: 01:10:55 - -- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBM08ZXwi+Ph+i3TgpAQEICgP+Ms3Y1L+P0utnfbZ46h+cENz/BSU9XuyH z8aN6d+TzcKiOypiAshwZ/me/moGTJSnd0lGfLJQVX4bZjMZVMGmKjbLDSeAOaLj HaWu0jt9trLydS36oo5FNYYypsd8a/HQEtLmy8e1i0ZNHiSSJAHGeUxVx3tVPJOX X+jax5v4T0o= =CCbX -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y
On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Leslie Mikesell wrote: > > Yes. Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install. The answer at > > this > > point is to run configure over and over. Each time it will install > > something > > that is needed to settle the conflicts. The problem is that the selected > > files aren't in dependant order. Hopefully the new project will address > > this > > problem. > > Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install. They > prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together > and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items. > It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution > but most people have better things to do. These days you probably > can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete > installation. Okay, apparently Debian also has no problem doing this, BUT if you do an ftp install it will fail because of a bug in dpkg-ftp, Bug#8660 actually. If you use a cdrom or some other mounted media it will be able to correctly identify the package order and install accordingly. If not then please tell me now! Thanks, Jason
Re: "dselect" replacement project ("deity")y
> Yes. Many have raised the issue of conflicts on install. The answer at this > point is to run configure over and over. Each time it will install something > that is needed to settle the conflicts. The problem is that the selected > files aren't in dependant order. Hopefully the new project will address this > problem. Note that RedHat gets this right, at least on the initial install. They prompt for groups of programs that generally would be chosen together and hide the ugly details unless you ask to pick individual items. It may be nice to individually pick every file on a unix distribution but most people have better things to do. These days you probably can't buy a disk that is too small to hold a fairly complete installation. Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
